Spain laughs as American media outlets declare Antonio Banderas a "person of color"

Most white AMPAS voters don't know the difference between Spain and Mexico except that one is where their gardener and maid are from.

Then is Charo considered white too?

What about Gael Garcia Bernal? Or Salma Hayek?

It's weird that everybody undoubtedly thinks Scarlett Johansson and Joaquin Phoenix are white. I thought jews hated white people and didn't see themselves as white.

The Spaniards are obviously NOT amused.

[quote]What about Gael Garcia Bernal? Or Salma Hayek?

For one thing, neither was born in Europe.

[quote] I thought jews hated white people and didn't see themselves as white.

No, that's just Matt Anscher.

[quote] For one thing, neither was born in Europe.

That's irrelevant. There are non-white people born in Europe.

Sorry but the whole person of color comment looks incredibly backwards in Spain, not because it's Antonio but because here calling someone person of color seems incredibly old fashioned and ridiculous.

Americans are obsessed with race, and maybe it's a surprise for some but not all white people is slavic or aryan

This distinction trips up The Woke all the time.

Is Giselle Bundchen a Latinx? The whole reason for shifting from "Hispanic" to "Latinx" was to include Brazilians, but does that include German-Brazilians? What about Japanese-Brazilians (there are lots of them)? Argentines of English or Irish heritage?

And the more obvious one: if Banderas and his Spanish-born wife were to move to Mexico, would they become Latinxes? What about their kids? (Funny enough, the 16th Century Spaniards used the word "Criollo" to refer to the New World born children of Spanish settlers.)

It's a shame that Banderas' nomination has been tainted by this controversy. Whoever called him a POC should be identified and humiliated for this.

"Latinx" is not a race. It's not even an ethnicity. Latin americans can be mestizo, black, full amerindian, triracial, white or even asian. Mestizos are obviously the majority, but there are people of different backgrounds as well.

Someone is confusing 'ethnic' for POC.

R12 what's the difference?

Ethnic | ˈeTHnik | adjective relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition: leaders of ethnic communities. • relating to national and cultural origins: two playwrights of different ethnic origins. • denoting origin by birth or descent rather than by present nationality: ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. • characteristic of or belonging to a non-Western cultural tradition: ethnic dishes | folk and ethnic music.

The last bullet point might be what the Spanish are upset about. Not sure if the mixed blood from their Moorish invasion counts as ethnic to them, but it does to me.

Wait a minute. He isn’t black?

Everyone is ethnic.

R4, it's about time they pull up their socks and start realising how Anglo-Saxons really view them. They look down on Spaniards and so do the great majority of Europeans. Ask a German, a Brit or a French person? They all think Spaniards are not quite....

So again R14, what's the difference between ethnic and POC?

A person of color acknowledges his ethnicity is other than Western White European, R18. That's pretty much it.

Europeans view Greeks and Sicilians in a similar way, R17.

I think the more disturbing issue is that it seems as if certain people act as if being called a person of color is the most insulting thing you can call a person. I mean really - is it that serious??? It just goes to show Latinos have a disturbing obsession with color/race.

R19, I doubt that happens to the Italians, for one thing they are viewed as completely European. Within the group of southern Europeans they have a privilege status.

Don't call anyone from Sicily an Italian, R21. They consider themselves unique and resent the association. Tuscans are similar in making an ETHNIC distinction.

He's so swarthy. Maybe he had a latinx ancestor, who knows. A lot of new world mestizo people traveled back to Espana. Conquistadors took Indio wives and their children moved back sometimes. You never know.

R21: You are totally wring, in fact italians and spanish have a lot of things in common, they are southern europeans and nothern europeans like to think they are way better.

The truth is Italy and Spain are big enough to make derail the whole european union economy and that change a lot of things, they are not Greece.

France are southern europeans too, but they are so entlittled and chauvinistic that they think they are not. At least they get used that an spanish is going to win their beloved Roland Garros every year when they are unable to reach a final since the 80's

R23: No he is simply from the south of Spain, they are tanned and brunette. South of Spain was under arab dominion for centuries while the north was recovered by christians way faster, and of course there are a lot of celtic genes in people of the north of Spain.

If you took folklore there are way more similarities between Galicia (northwest of Spain) and Ireland than they have with Andalucia

Northern italians look down upon sicilians. There used to be some venetian separatist movement.

Spanish were reminded that America doesn't see them as white. It must come as a shock to younger Spaniards that just a few decades ago they were not allowed to go to places where "whites" used to gather.

Are these Mexicans people of color?

Everyone knows there is no such thing as a white Mexican.

Plus, Spain is not real Europe.

R25, everyone assumes so, but recent DNA research comes to a different set of results.

It turns out not to be the case that Andalucia in southern Spain (where Banderas is from) has a stronger genetic influence from Africa. Galicia of all places, in the north, has a statistically interesting genetic influence from Africa, but not so the rest of mainland Spain, not even Andalucia with its obvious proximity, and it's more obvious influences in architecture, language, and foodways, for example.

R30 Let them be. Spaniards always want to dispel any cultural/genetic proximity or similarity with the 'down-at-heel' like the Africans, the Portuguese, the Indians in South America. The list goes on and the reason is pure and simple racism.

More left eating their own. Hilarious.

Why are the most diverse countries in the world the most nationalist? See the US, Great Britain, Brazil, Israel, Italy, etc.

He’s not white! And what’s the problem if he isn’t!? He’s clearly COLORED!

Not surprised, just figured Trump declared everyone outside US as non-white so he can set quotas for visiting and immigration.

R3, did you really think Jews hate white people? How did you come to that determination?

Americans from the U.S. seem incapable of seeing the Spain Spanish as something other than a subset of Latin Americans. Pressed to think about the geography of Spain it's as some sweeping generalization about swarthy Southern Europe, the perfect counterpoint to the Aryan north. Everything tidy and simple. Mexicans, Belizeans, Guatemalans, Dominicans, Peruvians, Argentinians, Brazilians...everything Tijuana and south all the same, all very simple; and the people of Spain somehow some quaint subset of the "Spanish" as known to the people of the U.S., (nevermind how un-Spanish they may be in various ways, nevermind that 100s of millions don't share the same basic language.)

In Barcelona shopkeepers eventually relented to the demands of U.S. tourists and sell Mexican sombreros, not Spanish sombreros, but The Mexican Hat Dance song sombrero, because U.S. tourists insist that they should if course be available in Spain (via China.)

Americans see the Spain and the Spanish they want to see, Spaniards as the refried beans and fajitas-eating, Mexican sombrero-wearing, Peruvian pan flute-playing, llama-riding Old World black and people of color Spaniards that they want them to be.

[quote] Americans see the Spain and the Spanish they want to see, Spaniards as the refried beans and fajitas-eating, Mexican sombrero-wearing, Peruvian pan flute-playing, llama-riding Old World black and people of color Spaniards that they want them to be.

Not everyone, just those who shriek about POCs or those who are desperate to coopt the POC label for themselves.

The most virulent SJWs are the most ignorant about other cultures. For them, appearance is all that matters.

If that's the case, Antonio Banderas would not be named in that article as a POC.

For the assburgers in this thread:

"Ethnic" refers to a group that shares a language, culture or religion. There are many ethnic groups in Eastern Europe, for example. There are many ethnic groups in the US. "Ethnic" in a derogatory sense, as a noun referring to a person, is usually a slur directed to a white person from a minority group-- Italians, Czechs, etc. in the US.

"POC" refers to someone from a nonwhite group that has been historically oppressed in a society. It's a 20th century term.

Each term emerged in a specific historical and political context. They are not used in a way that is necessarily logical, but depend on context, just like every other word in the English language.

Every country I know of has pejorative designations for non-majority groups ("ethnic"). Minority groups the world over have ways of differentating themselves from the majority that has persecuted them (POC). They might not use POC or "ethnic" but then again they aren't old Americans up in arms about changes they can't control or understand.

I am not a SJW. I am just an educated old person who does not live my life on Twitter.

Don't the people on the DL have an expression for this? White-adjacent. I had never heard this before except here. I think it's fitting in this case for Antonio: he's white adjacent.

Exactly, r42. He's a Catholic from a country outside Northwestern Europe. That's how DL defines white-adjacent.

@R41, thank you. At last an intelligent answer

Who listens to the American msm anymore, be it print or TV? The joke is that anyone in Spain thinks the msm in America matters.

I'll never forget listening to a pair of Americans on a podcast, one of whom opined that Elaine Stritch was not believable as a Christian. Catholic, yes. Christian, no. America is a helluva drug.

But for the trolls and the obvious racism, this is an interesting discussion. There is so little representation of actors who are non-Anglo (in appearance) and whose native language is something other than English, that an actor like Banderas -- who is 30+ years into his AMERICAN cinema career -- could be regarded as 'non-white.' That's like Lucy and Desi being the first "interracial" relationship on TV.

Trumpism is returning us to the 1940s -- on both sides of the political spectrum.

Also, I love how the same people who vocally oppose Banderas being characterized as a POC refer to British actress Cynthia Erivo as "African-american."

American liberals and moderates like to talk about the evils of racism (and rightly so), but--at the same time--this is what's still in their heads:

R46, I used to listen to Imam Farrakhan's preachings from his mosque in Chicago about how whites and Jews are blue eyed devils, every Sunday evening in the 70s. What is troublesome is that members of Congress fucking kiss his hate-filled islamic ass and no one says anything about it.

[Quote] refer to British actress Cynthia Erivo as "African-american."

I've seen interviewers do that - I think it was about one of those genre films with a Black Briton. And the Brit was talking with his fucking English accent before he was labelled "African-American."

My experience as a first generation American was watching my parents work harder to integrate themselves into society by learning to become fluent in English. It still blows my mind that there are people born here who have been given every kind of advantage of being in a free country who complain about oppression all day long.

It seems like Spaniards denying it so vehemently makes them a bit racist, no? "Me. A person of color? Fuck that. How dare you!"

[quote] My experience as a first generation American was watching my parents work harder to integrate themselves into society by learning to become fluent in English. It still blows my mind that there are people born here who have been given every kind of advantage of being in a free country who complain about oppression all day long.

Are your parents persons of color? Only native-born "white" people enjoy "every kind of advantage of being in a free country" in the U.S. And yet they still don't want to retrain and relocate from WV, OH, PA, MI or WI. They expect someone should deliver a livelihood right to their doormat.

R54 I guess you would call them white adjacent but who the fuck knows anymore? And the loss of low impact jobs impact people of all races, most especially African Americans.

Unless you're albino, you're a POC. What is so hard to understand? When I am viciously tan, am I a person of color ? Even if I have blue eyes? Really?/

[quote]It seems like Spaniards denying it so vehemently makes them a bit racist, no? "Me. A person of color? Fuck that. How dare you!"

Because they know Americans equate "people of color" with the poor. The disadvantaged. People who need a helping hand.

Spaniards come from a well-to-do modern sophisticated European country with a grand culture.

The would resent being lumped together with what "people of color" represent to most Americans.

[quote]My experience as a first generation American was watching my parents work harder to integrate themselves into society by learning to become fluent in English. It still blows my mind that there are people born here who have been given every kind of advantage of being in a free country who complain about oppression all day long.

What the hell does that, R52, have to do with a story about Antonio Banderas, a Spanish actor from Spain being labeled a person-of-color in foreign (U.S.) need reports of his nomination for an Oscar?

Nothing.

Let's put it like this; in Spain he is white in the US he is a POC.

So can he topline "A Raisin In the Sun"?

Antonio is my brother.

R42 Right. I'm Puerto Rican and in my world there are white and black ones. Same with cubans. Like Celia Cruz is a black Cuban. J. Lo is a white Rican. The former Governor is a white Rican. Pitbull is a white Cuban. Etc...Their skin is just as white as a Caucasian person. You can't call them POC. A minority I guess, yes. Same with light and dark African Americans.

Spaniards are highly racist. This is a national insult to them.

It’s racism, pure and simple. As a man of latin-American and Latin-Caribbean descent, I’ve witnessed it all my life, on both sides of my family.

It’s disgusting, really. I had one paternal aunt scold me because I dared to say I don’t consider myself white. She grabbed my arm, pulled me in close and with a quiet ferocity insisted, “You are white! We are white!” in Spanish. I was aghast.

I see Hispanics/Latinos and Latinas constantly displaying racism amongst their own. It’s pathetic, actually.

[quote]It’s racism, pure and simple.

What's racism?

Banderas is white. Why should he agree to be considered a person of color. For what reason?

[quote]Banderas is white. Why should he agree to be considered a person of color.

Because he has...all this time.

[quote]Spaniards are highly racist. This is a national insult to them.

Spain, like everywhere else I have been, is not without racism, but "highly racist"? Compared to where? The "national insult", as you claim, is less about race and more about the laughable ignorance of much of the "civilized" world about their country. For a bunch of white people in L.A. to pay themselves on the back for nominating that one "person of color" for an Oscar is the same sort of ignorance see in Nigeria by visitors who talk about all of the lovely "African Americans" they met, or the non-Asian who refers to all vaguely Southeast Asian looking people as Chinese. Despite any assumed good intentions, it's stupid and wrong and lazy and insensitive.

[quote]It’s racism, pure and simple. As a man of latin-American and Latin-Caribbean descent, I’ve witnessed it all my life, on both sides of my family.

What is racism, pure and simple? Antonio Banderas? Spaniards who laugh at the ignorance of some white people in Hollywood who want to make Banderas' identity something convenient for them, truth be damned?

Spain is not Latin America. There isn't the equivalent of a "brown paper bag test" of being "white Spanish" or "black Spanish" or "dark or fair Spanish", no race-bound dichotomies of people of European ancestry and people "from the jungle" as you might hear in Peru, for example.

Spain is a homogenous country of 90%+ Spaniards and less than 10% of all other other people - the largest of these groups are Gypsies, Asians, Blacks, Moroccans none represent even 2% of the Spanish population. The Spanish consider themselves Spanish, not Hispanic and not Latino (both have very different meanings depending on where you are, but both have been American-centric for most of a century, and not "people of color."

Banderas is white and European and Spanish, none of which has anything to do with R64's problem with his aunt an ocean away. That is why the Spanish headlines laugh at the ignorance of well intentioned fat cats in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles.

Spain used to be a great nation with a great empire, America has it backwards about the Spaniards.

Let's just face it. Spanish are not viewed as white in America. Look what's happening to them in the 2020 census? They are officially losing their white status in America.

I know Spaniards view it as an insult, but what you gonna do? It's just another world I guess.

[quote]Let's just face it. Spanish are not viewed as white in America. Look what's happening to them in the 2020 census? They are losing their white status in America.

Let's just face it that you and too fucking many other Americans are too fucking stupid to know that while "Spanish" is the fourth most widely used language in the world, "Spanish" as a people refers only to Spaniards - people from Spain, with Spain citizenship and Spain passports, not Latin Americans, not Hispanic Caribbean Americans, nor anybody else not a proper from Spain Spaniard. The 2020 U.S. Census isn't doing anything to the status of Spanish people - because they don't have jurisdiction of Spaniards in Spain.

R70, everyone actually knows that. Why don't you accept the fact that Spaniards feel insulted by being lumped in with "those other Hispanic people" because of their own racism? Do you not find it a bit ironic that in your post explaining that Spanish people are only from Spain, you lump every single person from South America and the Caribbean into their own group without defining them by their country of origin as you are demanding people do for the Spanish people from Spain?

What, for you, makes someone a "person of color" (stupid term that it may be) if those from South America are but those from southern Spain aren't?

If Antonio Banderas is a POC, then Anne Hathaway, Johnny Depp, Russel Crowe and Hugh Jackman are also people of color. The one drop rule should work for everybody, not just for those who have iberian names.

[quote]Why don't you accept the fact that Spaniards feel insulted by being lumped in with "those other Hispanic people" because of their own racism?

Are you really that stupid?

Please explain to us why Spaniards should be considered Hispanic or Latino or anything other than Europeans?

Never call a Southern European a person of color, regardless of the huge amount of African and Arab blood they have. To them, they're as white as Swedes. They'll kill you is you say otherwise.

Huge amount? It's not more than 10-15%.

R73, think about it this way if you're not too stupid...

"Korean? I'm not a fucking Korean! Look at my much wider eyes. I'm Japanese!"

"Black! I'm not a goddamn black person. Fuck that. I'm Cuban!"

"Hispanic? Latino? I'm not fucking Hispanic or Latino! I'm from Spain and I'm white."

All said by bigots who think whatever they are is better than "that other group".

[quote]Please explain to us why Spaniards should be considered Hispanic

Oh dear...

You cannot be serious. They are the definition of Hispanic.

The majority of Finnish people has distant siberian ancestry, something around 3% and 5%. Are they POC too?

What color would that be, R78? Translucent isn't a color.

They don't use the term 'white-adjacent' in Europe?

R75, sorry, I'm East Asian. To us, 10% of anyone like that is huge.

I assume Antonio is Andalusian, although his parents look Castilian or perhaps Manchegan. Definitely not Valencian, Balearic, Murcian or Catalonian. Coloring is a bit Basque, Navarran, or Galician.

These are all considered separate ethnicities in Spain, to the point that civil conflicts have broken out.

Yet the US media just call them Spanish and bundle them in with their all the races, ethnicities, and nations of former colonies who happen speak the same language.

I’m just going to call all Americans “white English” from now on.

R77 Collins dictionary:

[quote]Never call a Southern European a person of color, regardless of the huge amount of African and Arab blood they have.

Wrong.

[quote]Please explain to us why Spaniards should be considered Hispanic or Latino or anything other than Europeans?

It's not that you should be considered Hispanic, it's about how offended you are by being called Hispanic.

Let's take R70 and R73 to school.

Hispanic = coming from/relating to Spain or Spanish speaking America.

Spain, to this day, still determines the official Spanish language used by official Latin American governments.

"hispanic" is an English word.

Merriam Webster dictionary:

Hispanic: of, relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent and especially of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin living in the U.S.

[quote]Spain laughs as American media outlets...

They're not laughing, they're angry.

If they could, they'd sue.

The Spanish are as white as Swedes. Same with Italians. Forget the dark skin, hating, and swarthiness. Keep saying it until you believe it.

R89 Has never been to Spain or Italy.

Alicia Vikander is 100% swedish. She is swarthy and brown-skinned. She could pass in Guatemala and Argelia. There are lots of swarthy germanics.

My friend is a POC from San Antonio, TX. We went to a wedding, and he kept apologizing for an un-tied tie, but said that, if he tied it, people would mistake him for the staff and order drinks from him.

[quote]"hispanic" is an English word.

Err no, Hispano/Hispanic is not an English word. The US government uses the definition by the Academies of The Spanish Language and the Royal Spanish Academy. All countries in the Americas use the definition of Hispanic from the Academies. The king of Spain is the official curator of the Academies.

If you actually read the article in OP, the scholars interviewed about this argue that race is a cultural construction. Yet on DL everyone is talking about this and that person being "swarthy."

[quote] Spain is a homogenous country of 90%+ Spaniards and less than 10% of all other other people - the largest of these groups are Gypsies, Asians, Blacks, Moroccans none represent even 2% of the Spanish population.

I visited Spain more than 30 years ago. I went to Madrid and Barcelona a year or so before Barcelona hosted the Olympics. There was great diversity in the appearance of the people I encountered. Based on observation, I would not characterize Spain as "homogenous." There were dark-skinned Spaniards with obvious African or Arab ancestry -- seemingly, many more than the 10% that you cite -- pale-skinned, blue-eyed Spaniards who looked Nordic, and everything in between. I visited Mexico City some years later and observed similar diversity in appearance and ostensible ethnicity. Within the (European) Spanish population there are Spaniards who in appearance and ancestry would qualify as "people of color." I don't dispute that the term is borne of an extreme racial politics, and polarization, unique to the U.S. However, the question of race is subjective and may very well be at odds with an individual's self-identification and perception.

Hispania is what the Romans called Spain, they are the original Hispanics.

Well R95, with your advanced knowledge of physiognomic analysis...

I am not endorsing anything, r97. My point is that race is strictly superficial and a matter of perception. There are "people of color" within the meaning of that term -- and as applied in America -- in Spain. If there is a consensus that Banderas is a person of color then he is. I am agnostic on this subject.

No, R20. It is not an insult. But it is extremely annoying because it is inaccurate and that some American journalists (?) who should be educated revel in their ignorance and act arrogantly about it.

It is like if they said that Spain is a country within Austalia, and then claim that people who objet this vehemently are haters of Australia.

Or if they said that Antonio Banderas is a woman and should be in the actress category. What, you despise women ? Why don't you accept to be called a woman ?

Or, R20, I don't know your name, but it is like if I called you Rudiger, and then proceed to shame you if you dare to say it is not your name.

You get the idea.

It is the same kind of debate than when Protestant American claim that Catholics are not Christians. (Hint, they are ! )

Ironically, R20's name IS Rudiger!

R99, it's because there is a 100% consensus that Spain is not in Australia and Banderas is not a woman. There is not 100% consensus that Spain is not Hispanic since, you know, that is their historical designation in Latinate languages.

[quote]Hispania (/hɪˈspæniə, -ˈspeɪniə/; Latin: [hɪsˈpaːnia]) was the Roman name for the Iberian Peninsula and its provinces. Under the Republic, Hispania was divided into two provinces: Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior. ... The modern place names Spain and Hispaniola are both derived from Hispania.

Nobody is white. Literally.

Ah, R100, that is the thing ! For most of the world outside U.S., there is a 100% consensus that Europeans are Westerners and that Westerners are White.

Southern Europeans played a vital role in the foundation of the Western Civilization (like the Greeks, you know... The Romans, too ! )

It reeaally comes across as Americans wanting to impose their skewed vision of the world to others. You might desagree with me, but this is how it is percieved.

As for the vocabulary debate about the word "hispanic", I was not involved in that.

I finally believe that they confuse " colors of the skin" with "language", "English" with " White". One or two generations ago, in Quebec, a person speaking French could be ordered by an English person to "Speak White ". Yes, in those days, it was meant as an insult.

R20 is Rudiger, eh ? I thought that might happen. He should be proud ! ;-)

Does the Queen consider a Spaniard white?

R101. Yeah, there are albinos who I think qualify, including albino Africans.

I think people have VERY different meanings for the words ‘white’ and ‘black’...

R103, let's ask her. We'll ask H and M to convey our question.

Of course, everyone knows that only blonde and blue-eyed people are truly white!

For a very, very long time, Americans only viewed "white" as being Anglo/Nordic/Germanic. All other Europeans (Slavs, Mediterraneans) were not really considered white. It was ridiculous, but that's how it was.

r33 Italy is not a diverse country at all.

This is one of those instances of political correctness eating itself.

They'll never get over the fact that we have more native Spanish speakers than they do. Spain no longer rules the diaspora. It is just that little dump where it got its start.

So some dumb American millennial didn't know Banderas was Spanish and not Latino? Hardly the biggest error in world history.

I was on a gay cruise several years ago. I met a gay couple on of the ship excursion's. They were both from Puerto Rico. One of them had dirty blond hair. They were both European looking. Nothing like the Puerto Ricans in West Side Story.

[quote]They'll never get over the fact that we have more native Spanish speakers than they do. Spain no longer rules the diaspora. It is just that little dump where it got its start.

Exactly. Everywhere one goes in Spain it's the same conversation among Spaniards. It's all they can talk about, in every bar and restaurant and place of work, in the streets, at the family diner table, in the middle of fucking, everywhere, all the time, the talk is non-stop, dumbfounded, and bitter about how Spain with 46.7M population has fewer Spanish speakers than other countries and "no longer rules the diaspora."

How strange you are, R111.

How is it that Spain never developed a Commonwealth type structure like the UK, in maintaining some control over their conquests lands?

[quote]My experience as a first generation American was watching my parents work harder to integrate themselves into society by learning to become fluent in English. It still blows my mind that there are people born here who have been given every kind of advantage of being in a free country who complain about oppression all day long.

This is why East Asians and South Asians have no time for whining and victim-blaming from certain segments of American society.

Interesting topic, R115. You should start new thread on that.

What everyone really cares is, who invented churros?

[quote]Never call a Southern European a person of color, regardless of the huge amount of African and Arab blood they have.

DNA testing has shown there isn't as much as previously thought.

[quote] How is it that Spain never developed a Commonwealth type structure like the UK, in maintaining some control over their conquests lands?

[quote] Interesting topic, R115. You should start new thread on that.

I'm not R115, but I started the thread nonetheless. It is a most necessary thread. See link below.

Spain is an island.

If I’m a bisexual Mestizo, how do I know which side of me is gay?

R115, I suspect that the economic coma Spain went into under Franco played a part. It was always worth it for ex-colonies to maintain ties to France and Great Britain, but for much of the twentieth century Spain didn’t have much to offer.

[quote]How is it that Spain never developed a Commonwealth type structure like the UK, in maintaining some control over their conquests lands?

Spain was out of the colonial business before the commonwealth concept was developed.

The British Commonwealth began only in 1931, a post-colonial effort to dress up colonialism into something a bit more presentable for its time; it only took its current form in 1950 - as a voluntary organization implying no subordination to the UK.

Spain, on the other hand, had shed (or long shed) everything colonial but Cuba and the Philippines as early as 1840; by 1912 it had only West Sahara, and by 1972 it was just Spain (and the Canary Islands which it conquered in 1402-1405.) Spain lost or shed its empire piecemeal, but it can also be said that it had a different attitude (at keys points across the centuries) to colonialism and control than did the UK.

Do NOT call Spaniards Latino!

We've left Trumpistan and are now entering Wokistan.

R112 nailed it a year ago when this was actually news: someone at Deadline tweeted something stupid because they didn't know any better, and that was it. There was no issue with multiple American outlets calling Banderas "Latino." That never happened.

In fact, Vanity Fair specifically said Spaniards are not considered people of color and El Pais STILL bitched about it, which sounds to me like your typical entertainment magazine drumming up false outrage for clicks.

Why this got bumped is beyond me. It was stupid a year ago and it's stupid now.

I’m assuming it got bumped because so many people were mad at Hilaria for pretending to be a person of color/Latina. Lots of people still don’t know the difference

And why do we care what Spain thinks and vice versa?

Calling everyone from Spain "POC" would be no different than calling Americans "POC" because there's other people besides blond hair/ blue eyed types 😂🤣 I'm convinced people have no idea what they're talking about if they insist Spain = POC.

I'm a POC according to whomever is deciding the things, but I'm over the use of it. One thread here instead there were black queens in England, because their relative 600 years before might've been black 😂 Sometimes I get the need to include in history and point out a lot of humans are not simply X race; but too many want to have their cake and eat it too. Are we okay making someone a designated POC if they had any POC past relatives, or they have a tan, or are from a certain country? Obviously not because the rules switch quite often....

It's obvious POC is used when convenient -- like adding races to royalty, cases of racism, or giving fair awards. To those arguing he's a POC, I ask if Zimmerman was, or the lady that hit the black teen? But i know you'll say "no no, they're more white/ have white privileges!" Asians using AA for college are suddenly not so POC when they have an advantage. 🙄 What about Elizabeth Warren steamrolled for claiming to have Native blood? What about all the white Americans that do have some "POC" blood? It's not working.

This is why I HATE THIS POC TREND. It erases the unique struggles by race (what an indigenous person deals with is not going to be the same as what black people deal with, even if there's overlap!) It's like POC is just whatever convenient stand in works for the overly woke. If you mean black, say it. If you mean Hispanic/ Latin say it if you mean Asian, fucking say it. Stop using POC when it doesn't work in the situation. And definitely stop using it to refer to an entire countries.

Since I was in HS 2 decades ago, the race politics have become so much more regressive I swear, due to good intentions (paving the road to hell.) With the tanning booth popularity at the time, it would've been hell. The POC generalities fail most times, because POC is so loosely (and conveniently) defined.

*insisted = instead

Oh god not this again!

Well, let me put it this way. The only way he’s getting into MY country club is if he fills out a job application.

R89 is slow and doesn’t understand sarcasm. 😂

Hispanics and Latinos are considered white.

According to government forms for Covid in San Diego County, Hispanics are acknowledged as Hispanics but counted as white.

Spanish people have a large amount of R1b like people from The British Isles , The Netherlands, Belgium and France.

It got bumped because this discussion is actually about idiot Americans thinking Spaniards are people of color.

[quote] I'm a POC according to whomever is deciding the things

*whoever

When you’re about to use ‘whomever’, look at the words immediately following it and ask yourself if it’s going to be the *subject* pronoun of those words. In this case, it is: “ [who....] is deciding these things.” When it’s the subject, performing the action indicated in the words immediately following it (“deciding these things”), that takes precedence over the phrase preceding it (“according to”).

You would use the ‘whom-‘ construction only if that pronoun wasn’t then going to act as the subject of a subject+verb phrase.

Sorry for the grammar lesson that no one asked for, but this is the most common misuse of whom/whomever, so my hope is that it will be of use to someone out there.

And just so you don’t think I’m picking on your grammar, I want to add that I agree 100% with this!

[quote] It's obvious POC is used when convenient -- like adding races to royalty, cases of racism, or giving fair awards. To those arguing he's a POC, I ask if Zimmerman was, or the lady that hit the black teen? But i know you'll say "no no, they're more white/ have white privileges!" Asians using AA for college are suddenly not so POC when they have an advantage. 🙄 What about Elizabeth Warren steamrolled for claiming to have Native blood? What about all the white Americans that do have some "POC" blood? It's not working.

[quote] Hispanics and Latinos are considered white.

Not if they’re in a situation where it would be advantageous for them to be seen as marginalized or victimized.

I wish the grammar trolls could all get fucked. DL is not the place for this nuisance.

[quote]Sorry for the grammar lesson that no one asked for, but this is the most common misuse of whom/whomever, so my hope is that it will be of use to someone out there.

You now what would be of use to all of us on here? If you and the other grammar cunts could realize you're on a conversational internet forum where people post their random thoughts. If you want perfect grammar, perhaps you should get off the fucking internet.

Antonio Banderas is a white European. So is Cristiano Ronaldo. In Latin America, they resemble the upper class. Believe it or not many Latin Americans are mostly to 100% European especially in South American countries like Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia, Brazil and Chile.

Salma Hayek and Shakira are white of Lebanese descent.

Ricky Martin is mostly Spanish descent. As is Jennifer Lopez.

Only in The US with it's racist categorization of everything are these people called "people of color". When in actuality they would look down on brown-skinned Latin Americans on the street.

Grammar troll I still don’t understand. I thought it was “whom” when referring to “him or her” and “who” when referring to “he or she.”

True, the upper classes in Latin American countries are of 100% European Spanish/Portuguese stock. You won't see any Mestizos.

Would Sean Connery be considered a POC now? Antonio Banderas would not look out of place in the UK.

Shocker, different countries have different standards. Not sure why this is even a debate. Anyone who isn’t an “All-American” white isn’t seen as white in America by many.

He played Zorro so the media got confused.

[quote] Anyone who isn’t an “All-American” white isn’t seen as white in America by many.

I disagree. Most people consider Italians, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Jews, Irish, Polish to be white. Only Aryan-obsessed racists would argue the contrary. The confusion with Antonio seems to come from his history of playing Mexicans like in Desperado and Zorro. Thought they were clearly white Mexican characters.

Middle Easterners/North Africans is a hot topic for obvious reasons and mainly because many are brown-skinned and also they themselves don't consider themselves white and find the Census perplexing.

Also, the entire world finds it weird that we consider mixed people to be just black like Obama. Many Africans, Caribbeans and Latinos don't consider African-Americans with light skin and European features to be black.

Tom Cullen is English/Welsh and could pass for Spanish.

Jim Carter (Mr. Carson) is 100% English but looks Italian.

R146

It's not just Spanish and Portuguese either. Latin America has a high population of other European ethnicities too like German (e.g. Gisele Bundchen), Polish (e.g. Francisco Lachowski), Irish (e.g. Alexis Bledel), French, Jewish, Lebanese (e.g. Shakira, Salma Hayek), Italian (most of Argentina for example), etc.

Latin American countries are notoriously racist and had campaigns to encourage European immigration after WW1 in order to "mejorar la raza". Literally they encouraged European laborers to migrate to their countries and gave them good jobs and land while the black and brown populations starved and struggled to near extinction. Look up the history of Argentina as one of the most infamous cases.

Such a lot of chatter. Doesn't anyone care to say that AB was hot?

There are more Italian-Argentines than there are Italian-Americans. And the Italian-Argentines are not the "guido" types either. They're sophisticated and very European.

R155

I noticed that too. Many Argentines are also open about their country's past racism and seem tolerant and liberal on many social issues. While Italian-Americans are pretty conservative and probably the most racist I have seen.

R156 Ridiculous.

Italian Americans do not have the history of racism that other American whites have had.

[quote]While Italian-Americans are pretty conservative and probably the most racist I have seen.

And this comment is Xenophobic.

R157

I'm American and live in the Northeast. I have lived around many Italian-Americans and many are Republican and working class and the older ones tend to hold a very a dismissive attitude towards black people and Hispanics. I understand that many Italian-Americans were discriminated when they arrived in The US but they brought their anger on other minorities not on the people in power.

R159 Hon, Slavery, Jim Crow laws and redlining were not carried out by Italian Americans.

And those working class Italian Americans you're talking about actually tried to remain in cities long after other whites had fled.

How do you decide if somebody is a poc? There are a lot of white Mexicans in Mexico City who have German and French blood. They have blonde hair and blue eyes. Antonio is darker than they are.

Antonio passes as Mestizo, not a white Mestizo but not an indigenous-looking one either.

He's what I call a middle of the road Mestizo.

Biden just said from the White House that COVID-19 affects Hispanic people far more than it does white people.

[quote] Grammar troll I still don’t understand. I thought it was “whom” when referring to “him or her” and “who” when referring to “he or she.”

That’s true, but that’s just one piece of the puzzle.

There are so many people of mixed race or ethnicity, especially in the US and South America, I don't know why it's important to make an issue of race. or ethnicity. It's interesting, and people have a right to be proud of their heritage. But every time there's a thread on it, all the bigotry, prejudice, and sweeping generalizations about race and ethnicity are disgusting and sickening.

R165, it’s because the woke & mainstream Democrats have demanded that race and color be at the forefront of everyone’s minds. As a reaction to that, there will be confused people seeking clarification and bigoted people doing the mocking.

As well as comparatively non-bigoted people pointing out the hypocrisy and discrepancies in the way race & color are talked about.

People are often so ignorant about such matters but express themselves anyway, often loudly, causing confusion all around them. For instance, on another thread, someone called Pete's Chaz-10 a WASP, when he was born and raised a Roman.

The Spanish are not white, they are olive skinned.

Spanish are naturally dark. Hundreds of years back the king brought in Swedes to make them lighter.

I can't wait to hear Hilaria Baldwin's opinion on this.

R168 has never been to Spain.

In college a guy across the hall from me was an exchange student from Spain. He was cute, blond haired, and blue eyed. He spoke with a heavy Spanish accent, which made him even more attractive.

I would time my shower in the mornings in hopes of catching him naked, but like most Europeans, he rarely bathed.

Particularly since lately he is apparently morphing visually into a career-twilight-era Glenda Jackson.

[quote] but like most Europeans, he rarely bathed.

even hotter!

There are only bottle-blond Spaniards. Blue eyes are very rare with them.

R175, I never saw his pubes, so couldn't tell you.

They do this so that Hispanics can replace Black people as the most important minority group. Then all the minority monies can go to white people who are Hispanic.

[quote]They do this so that Hispanics can replace Black people as the [bold]most important minority[/bold] group.

???

Hispanics are not as important as black people??

[quote]Sorry but the whole person of color comment looks incredibly backwards in Spain, not because it's Antonio but because here calling someone person of color seems incredibly old fashioned and ridiculous. Americans are obsessed with race, and maybe it's a surprise for some but not all white people is slavic or aryan

Well, at least we know for sure why Americans are so obsessed with race R8. At least half the country is made up of white supremacists and Klan members and they want anyone who isn't white, straight and christian dead.

The irony is that after all the "shithole countries" comments - that America turned out to be one of the very worst shithole countries on the planet! They just stopped trying to hide it.

[Quote]Antonio passes as Mestizo, not a white Mestizo but not an indigenous-looking one either.

R162 A lot of folks on here need lessons in race, ethnicity, nationality, etc.

Mestizo defines a person of European and Indigenous American descent. Antonio was born in Malaga, of Spanish parents. His darker skin is probably more a result of centuries of Islamic rule over al-Andalus, today's Spain.

It was really clear with the Hilary / Hilaria Baldwin debacle that many don't understand the terms Hispanic and Latino / Latina My understanding is that the origin of Hispanic is from the Iberian peninsula being called Hispania during the Roman Empire. The people from Hispania were called Hispanicus (Latin) or Hispanic (English); so it means people from Spain. Over time Hispanic evolved as a term that categorizes people that speak Spanish. In 1980 the US census added it - asking people if they were Spanish / Hispanic - making it seem more about ethnicity than language. People from dozens of races identify now as Hispanic, certainly there are many Spaniards who have non POC heritage.

Latino / Latina refers to anyone from any of the Latin American countries and in some cases also to those from the Caribbean - regardless of race. It is typically only used by those living in the USA with a Latin American cultural heritage. Outside the USA, the country of origin is typically used (Mexican, Brazilian etc). Most but not all Latinos have POC racial heritage.

[quote] Americans see the Spain and the Spanish they want to see, Spaniards as the refried beans and fajitas-eating, Mexican sombrero-wearing, Peruvian pan flute-playing, llama-riding Old World black and people of color Spaniards that they want them to be.

Oh, who cares? You're all uncivilized papists

r28 I dunno, but they look like wax figures.

[quote] His darker skin is probably more a result of centuries of Islamic rule over al-Andalus, today's Spain.

Islamic rule makes you darker?

[quote]Oh, who cares? You're all uncivilized papists

Because Protestants are SO civilized. 🙄

R184 The Islamic rule of Spain started in 711 with the conquest of Gibraltar by an army of Berbers, which are native to North Africa and West Africa, specifically Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Mauritania, northern Mali, and northern Niger.

Did I get darker under the Obama presidency? Did the Iberians get darker because they had Islamic rulers starting in 711? I don't think so.

R163

Because in America that is what is tracked and documented. White, black, Asian, Hispanic are the main categories.

That is literally what has been said all the time by the news. It’s been constantly repeated how black and Hispanic people have been hit the hardest by the coronavirus. Why are you pretending that isn’t the case?

^^Just to clarify, Swedes were not known to inhabit North Africa and West Africa in the 8th century, from whence the invading Islamic armies emanated at that time.

Hispanic means from spanish speaking countries. The proper term should be Latino but even that covers over many races as Latin countries are a melting pot of black, indigenous, white european, arab, and asian immigrants.

[quote] from whence

Oh dear

Oh shut up r191.

R180 you need to read R162 again. Yikes.

Gentleman, which one are you.

Is it multiple choice?

The troll at R142/R143 doesn’t belong here.

Why are people arguing that he's not hispanic? The article called him a person of color. Spaniards took offense to it because they consider themselves white. It's very simple racism. In America he is too dark skinned and "ethnic" looking to play white and that bothers some Spaniards. It's laughable to deny it. Southern europeans are considered the trash of europe and their darker skin tone is part of the reason. Doesn't make it fair but it is the way it is.

[quote]The article called him a person of color. Spaniards took offense to it because they consider themselves white. It's very simple racism.

What is "very simple racism," R197: calling someone a person of color when he is not? calling someone a person of color because he is from Spain? Spaniards who consider themselves white?

The very simplest racism in your post is your own, cherrypicking stereotypes to make make the most spurious argument and to make your sour cunt smell better:

[quote]In America [Banderas] is too dark skinned and "ethnic" looking to play white and that bothers some Spaniards. It's laughable to deny it. Southern europeans are considered the trash of europe and their darker skin tone is part of the reason. Doesn't make it fair but it is the way it is.

Spain, Portugal, Italy, and France (and, dubiously, Romania) refer to themselves and their culture as "Latin". For example, a Frenchman was telling me after former president François Hollande's affair with a young actress got plastered in the papers: "This would be a scandal in England but in Latin countries, we don't care about such things. Nicolas Sarkozy also left his wife for Carla Bruni just as he started his term." Point being, Spaniards, Italians, French and Portuguese being Latin, are technically Latinos, right?

[quote]Point being, Spaniards, Italians, French and Portuguese being Latin, are technically Latinos, right?

No.

[quote]Why are the most diverse countries in the world the most nationalist? See the US, Great Britain, Brazil, Israel, Italy, etc.

You're ignoring the rest of the world again.

[quote]Southern europeans are considered the trash of europe

No.

EASTERN Europeans are considered the trash of Europe.

[quote]Southern europeans are considered the trash of europe

Funny. Northern European tourists such as Brits, Germans and the Dutch are considered straight-up barbarian trash in Italy and Spain.

All Europeans know Banderas is not a POC, however.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote]Point being, Spaniards, Italians, French and Portuguese being Latin, are technically Latinos, right?

If you value your life, you won't call an Italian-American "Latino."

[quote]The Spanish are not white, they are olive skinned.

Nobody's skin is actually white. What race do you think "olive-skinned" is?

R57 is right. I'm East Asian and I hate being called POC.

Southeast Asians can call themselves brown, POC, etc. if they want. Go nuts, dummies: box your minds and limit your prospects by labeling yourselves oppressed. It's been a thing lately, as affirmative action advocates use the new angle "Well, affirmative action helps certain less privileged Asians, e.g., SE Asians, so all Asians should be for it."

But only the most sellout, second-generation, PC East Asian-American fucks adopt "POC" as a label for themselves, typically on podcasts and the like when bitching about how they can't break into Hollywood.

It's the same East Asians who advocate for affirmative action to show solidarity with other groups, but mostly to be able to say to themselves: "I'm not one of those FOB East Asians: I love [downtrodden group] people and I have [downtrodden group] friends. I *get* it and FOBs don't." - i.e., out of shame and implicit self-loathing.

I work with Japanese and Singaporeans who moved to the US. When they got here, they were horrified to learn that in America they are considered "people of color." I mean horrified. They reject that label and deeply resent that they're called that by Americans.

Re POC - it's for neurotic college-educated types trying to break into various elite industries. It's BS.

[quote] Such a strategy would require the upwardly mobile second-generation immigrants — the people most likely to be tasked with broadcasting this message out toward the public — to do something that might feel counterintuitive or even contradictory. But we must abandon the broad style of diversity politics that designates us as “people of color.” Those categories might help us navigate the academy and the workplace, but they only resonate with a small, generally wealthy portion of our population.

Spot-on, R209. We fucking HATE it. Might as well calls us [insult for various East Asian people]. We definitely think less of people who use the term.

[quote]The Spanish are not white, they are olive skinned.

Wrote someone unfamiliar with Spain. Besides "olive-skinned" not being a racial indicator, you can find both olive-skinned and very pale white Spaniard, easily and in numbers, which genetic research is increasingly demonstrating has fuck all to do with your notions of racial "purity." You can find Irish white people with darker complexions than Spanish white people, which just goes to show...nothing.

There are lots of dark Irish.

The Brits are the trashiest of all.

So what are East Asians r208/r209/r211? Because they're certainly not white.

r215 The East Asians I know are offended at being called "people of color" because they associate that term with poor black and brown people. They like to think they're on the same level as white people.

But they're not white!

There are tons of Hispanics, Arabs, Iranians, and Turks who are, for all intents and purposes, white and classified as such in the U.S. But East Asians? Never.

R215 and R218, you're absolutely correct.

Simply call us "East Asian".

See? It's simple.

R198 simple racism is getting offended at being called a person of color even if you consider yourself white. Pointing out that it's inaccurate is fine, but to many a dark complected person from the southern part of europe is considered a person of color. Inaccurate but only offensive to those who like to be on par with Northern europeans aka the "real whites". And yes I know how many Spaniards think and I know that they still prize fair skin so being associated with people of color is an insult. THAT is simple racism. Not to brush Antonio Banderas with that label however.

It's no different to being an American from the US and being mistaken for a Canadian. Inaccurate but hardly something to get bothered about.

R198 thank you. They are dark people with dark features, but for some reason they seem to be really offended when it is pointed out to them. I have been to Spain and most of them were NOT aryan looking, contrary to what is being claimed.

Yeah the whole spanish people are fair skinned with light eyes and hair usually comes from spanish and Latinos themselves R221. The VAST majority of Spaniards have swarthy looks. Just don't tell them that to their faces 🙄

[quote]but to many a dark complected person from the southern part of europe is considered a person of color.

Um, no.

Hi, I am Italian and I have olive skin, they are skin colors, never discriminated against me for this, fortunately in Europe we do not have this type of problems. Unfortunately, we are having them with the recent migrations from Africa, whose poor ariano people feel oppressed. In all respects, I am European, Italian but even earlier Latin. Because the Italian language such as Spanish, French and other languages derive from the Latin mother tongue. In our schools, Lycées, it is still studied in the same way as Greek, another mother tongue. In Vatican City the official language is Latin, I can assure you that they do not feel discriminated against and we do not discriminate against them, while the language spoken is Italian. As many as it seems that you Americans are making problems for you, it would be enough to study a little more history. Or just go to Wikipedia and search for the Latin language. The countries colonized by Spain are Latin, because they speak Spanish from the Latin language. Antonio Banderas is Spanish, it is not the color of the skin that identifies him, that is why the newspapers are making fun of you. In Northern Europe they tend to be whiter because they have less sunlight but as soon as they can come to us in the South Europe to sunbathe and tan. 😜 Sorry for my english 😜

Has anybody said adjacent yet?

[quote] In America he is too dark skinned and "ethnic" looking to play white and that bothers some Spaniards.

Basically this ^

Besides, Spain and Latin American cultures are meshing more with each passing year.

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz

Have you ever been to Southern Spain?

Physically they are very similar to people from Marocco.

[quote] Spain, Portugal, Italy, and France (and, dubiously, Romania) refer to themselves and their culture as "Latin".

Why is this so dubious? Romanian is a Latin language and many Romanians also learn to speak fluent French. They may have been an Iron Curtain country back in the day but their culture has been more Latin than Slav.

Talking a specific language and your ancestors' DNA are two different things.

Q: Why fight the Nazis just to adopt their train of thoughts?

[quote]Besides, Spain and Latin American cultures are meshing more with each passing year.

What is this "meshing" supposed to mean, R226? The meshing is in the minds of people from the U.S. too ignorant or too lazy not to lump people together: Spain, Spanish language, all the same, right? Nevermind that in South America the number of people who speak Portuguese is just barely short of the number who speak Spanish. Or that of the top 50 series of 2020 on Netflix España only one had an obvious Latin American connection - a director born in Mexico City but raised in Madrid. Or that the only obvious cultural "meshing" is that the Latin Grammy Awards include Latin America and artists working in Spanish or Portuguese languages - that's the biggest example of "meshing" I can think of, and it's the fucking Grammy's. There are not huge art shows of Spanish and Portuguese and Latin American artists: Latin America may be lumped together as one but the grouping together doesn't extend across the Atlantic in significant ways.

This ever increasing meshing of geographies and cultures - I think it's in your mind more than in reality but maybe you can enlighten with examples in fact.

R229 Oh dear, the Nazis don't care about language or DNA.

"Mussolini deported hundreds of homosexuals to San Domino (Isole Tremiti) in 1938. No law forbade homosexuality at the time, but Mussolini wanted to hide the very existence of homosexuals, arguing that "In Italy there are only real men". Conditions on the island were very difficult and some died. San Domino had the peculiarity of being the only internment camp where all prisoners were gay men, paradoxically forming a gay "community" [12] The dormitories were spartan, without electricity or running water. A bell rang at 8 p.m. every day, signaling that he was no longer allowed to stay outside. [13] The confinement ended on May 28, 1940, at the will of police chief Bocchini, in agreement with the duce: Italy was at war and needed men and spaces of detention. On June 7, the con confinates left the island and, surprisingly, many of them regretted it, as they waited for him to return home where, although free, they could not be themselves due to rampant homophobia. [14] In the fall of 1940, San Domino was transformed into an internment camp where anti-regime politicians and Jewish were imprisoned."