So Antonio Banderas isn't a person of color?

He's a Spaniard, i.e. a white European.

?? Just being a native of a foreign country doesn't make you a PoC.

Banderas is from Malaga which is in the southernmost region of Spain. An area conquered by the Moors and before that the people were intermarried with Phoenician traders from what is now Lebanon. Get a cheek scrape from him, do some genetic testing and he's likely got North African or Middle Eastern heritage.

My American-born friend whose mother is from Spain and whose father was born in the US of Basque ancestry, always maintained she was of white European ancestry. None of this brown stuff for her, she was not mixed with indigenous blood. With her pale skin and blue eyes one had to agree. When I was in Spain (I'm from CA) I was surprised how European many Spaniards looked, not like my Hispanic neighbors at all.

Spaniard marries indigenous person of the Americas... = children brown.

I am.

It's America. Here we're blind to any minority race other than black due to our narcissism and history. It's why we've essentially shrugged off the fact that concentration camps for latinos are a tangible thing in our country right now. We only seem to care about black people when it comes to racial issues.

Person of colour is such a stupid term.

What’s up with these threads about race lately?

Spanish people from Spain are white you nitwit!

Mexicans and others from the south of the US are people of color that were descendants of Native Aztec. The reason they speak Spanish is because they were conquer by the white Europeans AKA Spaniards about 1519 AD.

R9, Americans are obsessed with race. Basically, the whole nation's public discourse is stuck in 19th/early 20th century race thinking.

America is not any worse about race than Europeans. We just play it out in the open. Eventually we move past it. Euro trash just keeps it hush hush. When was the last time the UK had a black Prime Minister?

R12, triggered much?

Europeans are also 'racist,' but usually it's discrimination against cultures and religions. When push comes to shove, most Europeans - except maybe hardcore neo-nazis - will admit that there is no inherent negative quality in, say, people from the Middle East, despite there being a lot of discrimination against refugees from those countries. They will say it's their conservative culture and religions that is negative.

Many people south of the border are also not people of color. Not all Spaniards/Portuguese mixed with Native Americans. Additionally, the large influx of European immigrants from 1840 to 1920 immigrated to parts of South America. Argentina once prided itself on being all European.

R12, when did not having a black prime minister equate with racism?

Some Mexicans are not descendants of Aztecs but completely of Spanish (or other European descent who immigrated there, many to Mexico City after WW2). They don't stand out (i.e., "look Mexican") if they move to the US, so it might not be obvious. If you go to Mexico, you will see plenty of European looking people, born in Mexico, often more middle class so they don't need to emigrate north for economic reasons. I'm not speaking of other Latin-American countries because I've only spent time in Mexico, but the same would be true in those countries obviously.

If you go to Spain, you will see many people with the coloring of Antonio Banderas who have no non-European blood. Man, that guy was beautiful when he was young though--see Dark Habits, Law of Desire or Matador-- 3 of Almodovar's great black comedies from the early '80s. They're probably all streaming somewhere--especially Matador.

We are all African so all the nominees are of color.

R8 Agreed, it's such a sneaky way to say colored person. Switching the order of words doesn't change it from its past. By the way, why is it ok to say white, black or brown but not yellow?

[quot]when did not having a black prime minister equate with racism?

Because it says the culture as a whole will not allow a segment of the population to ever size to the most powerful positions in the country. Oh they will tolerate, maybe even accept people of color but in no way do they want their country to be represented by that person of color because deep down you think a real Brit is white. Those "other people" are not real countryman. That's how racism works.

r19=Meghan Markle

[quote]By the way, why is it ok to say white, black or brown but not yellow?

I assume you mean Asian. Because people are not actually yellow you nitwit. Asians are a shade of brown to white.

Watch Univision or Telemundo and everybody is white Spanish. A lot of them are so white they could pass for Anglo. You hardly ever see any Mestizos.

[quote]We are all African so all the nominees are of color.

Someone should have told that to Hitler! And all his adoring and enabling fans in Germany.

R7 those pictures with Mexican illegals' kids in cages? The "latino concentration camps"? That was all from the Obama administration

Banderas is whiter than most Italians.

He's about the same as Southern Italians.

Antonio is colorless.

Deplorable alert at R24.

Sorry to burst your bubble Debbie Deplorable, Obama did not separate kids from their families. Those things were empty when Trump came to town. They were never built to separate kids from their parents as a scare tactic. They were built as a detention center just like every 1st world country has near their boarders. Trump turned it into the concentration camp that it became.

"By the way, why is it ok to say white, black or brown but not yellow?"

Is this like some kind of Bat Signal for the Yellow Skin Troll?

I don't know any people who are actually white, though, except albinos. And, there really aren't black people either. Go look at some crayons. There are no white or black colored people. People are all somewhere on the spectrum from pale pink to dark brown.

R19, the UK had a black PM back when the US had a woman President. More seriously, the black population in the UK is a lot smaller than in the US and isn't even the largest ethnic minority in the UK. These have been only present in any numbers only since the 1950s. Not that actual facts will count with you, I know.

[quote]hese have been only present in any numbers only since the 1950s. Not that actual facts will count with you, I know.

Oh please, they just got there? That's your excuse? Funny how when other facts are pointed out about the UK like WW2 it was a long time ago and things have changed.

And by the way, that's total bullshit. The Atlantic slave trade was started in Europe including Britain more than 200 years ago.

They just got there, bitch please.

In large population numbers rather than scattered individuals, yes r53. Attempting to twist things to claim that the UK is racist because it hasn't had a black prime minister is ridiculous. Most countries in the world haven't had a prime minister or president who is not of the indigenous/majority ethnic group so everywhere must be racist then.

Really? Antonio Banderas is not considered a POC?

I'm actually pretty surprised by that, given the huge moorish history of most of Spain.

[quote]The Moors were a nomadic people from North Africa; originally they were the inhabitants of Mauretania. They invaded Spain, taking their Islamic religion and culture with them, in 711, where they overran the Visigoths.

So, an Argentine person with European background would be considered a POC, but a Spanish person isn't? Would a Brazilian with German ancestry be a POC?

PoC means many things to many people, so its usage strongly depends on the context. It also has to do with majority-minority relationships, and whether there are perceived imbalances in power and recognition.

No Spaniard, regardless of how southerner they look, would be considered a "PoC" in Europe.

In my experience, in Europe, it's not really about race, it's more about ethnicity. Culture and religion play a big role in discrimination, ancestry less so, unless it's very salient with regard to phenotype. Even then, phenotype will be more likely to serve as a heuristic for determining ethnicity (and the associated stereotypes) than for some abstract idea of race as a "thing" with certain inherent qualities.

R3 reveals how dumb racists are. People from all around the Mediterranean have shared DNA, and that DNA made it’s way into a lot of western and northern Europeans thanks to the Vikings and the Normans, and other sea-farers and coastal dwellers. They’re all shades of brown but so is everyone on earth. Race is a construct but that doesn’t mean it’s not real. Banderas is white because Spanish people are considered European, just like Italians, Greeks and Slavs. European = white because thats the form the construct takes currently. You can cling to 19th century racialism all you want; the reality is that everyone exists on a spectrum, and the darker you are/further you are from a Nordic ideal, the more intense the racism/oppression/otherness.

[quote] Most countries in the world haven't had a prime minister or president who is not of the indigenous/majority ethnic group so everywhere must be racist then.

You just proved my point. The fact that it’s never happened even once points to the racism of that culture. America and even Ancient Rome had a black head of state, what’s your excuse?

Do you people actually think 'Moors' and people native to North Africa and the Middle East are POC? Or is it only if they are Muslim? What if they are Israeli? If Arabs are POC, then so must be Jews. Semitic people are Semitic people regardless of religion.

R37 is clearly beyond reason on this issue.

R37, this is absurd. Rome had Northern African emperors, but they would probably not be considered black by today's American standards. They would likely look like a Lybian or an Egyptian, not sub-saharan African. And, yeah, Europe's history has always been tightly intertwined with North African and Middle Eastern history. Even during the Bronze Age, there was vibrant trade between all these areas, as can be seen by Bronze Age artifacts found in today's Central Europe that originated in the Middle East.

All this talk of oscars so white is actually racist and devaluing to the people who were nominated. Fuck off, assholes. If Awkwafuckingfina and JHo really deserved it, they would have been nominated.

Skin color is a social description, nothing more. Spanish people are part of the Caucasian race, even though some of them may have much darker pigmentation to their skin than a classically "white" person. White people in the US & elsewhere come in all shades of colors, but they're still Caucasian.

"Caucasian" = 19th century racialism

"Caucasian" is the correct term for a white person.

Antonio is light mocha.

"Caucasian" is a chimera, it doesn't exist scientifically or socially, so the sciences moved away from the term in the middle of the 20th century. Only Americans still use it. That's what I meant when I said that America's public discourse is stuck in the 19th/early 20th century with regard to the idea of "race."

There are 3 major racial groups on earth. A 4th racial group (Australoid) is rarely used anymore. They are usually grouped into the negroid race.

CAUCASIAN: Aryans, Hamites, Semites

MONGOLIAN: northern Mongolian, Chinese and Indo-Chinese, Japanese and Korean, Tibetan, Malayan, Polynesian, Maori, Micronesian, Eskimo, American Indian,

NEGROID: African, Hottentots, Melanesians/Papua, “Negrito”, Australian Aborigine, Dravidians, Sinhalese

[quote] When was the last time the UK had a black Prime Minister?

You mean mixed-race President/PM, R12. Obama wasn't black - he had a white mother. That's called bi-racial.

I have parents of different races. I always make sure to celebrate BOTH heritages. It's very coy of Obama to present himself ONLY as black, ignoring his own WHITE mother.

Boris Johnson's grandfather was Turkish so that counts for something. I think David Cameron's grandmother was Japanese. Disraeli was a full on Sephardic Jew. The US has never had a Jewish president not to mention a Sephardic one!

Idiot at R48, since when did Obama ignore his white mother? He never once tried to hide the fact that his mother was white. Your comment is outlandish.

R35, "PoC" is a dumb American term that some are trying to import into Europe. This is really quite stupid because in Europe we don't have the same racial/cultural wars as in the US and can distinguish between people from Africa, people from Asia and people from Latin America - who in the US are all lumped together with the stupid term "People of Colour".

Europe is also a continent with dozens of languages and ethnic/national groups, we have a slightly different understanding of diversity from the discourse in the US.

I think he is white. I used to think of my Hispanic friends as white people...now I am suppose to coloruze everyone! I am suck of it.

I am suck of it too!

"Idiot" at R50, Obama calling himself "black" (only) on the U.S. census when his own mother is "white" is what's "outlandish".

I always confirm that I'm "mixed-race" on my census form.

Antonio is jet a great looking guy....good grief is this about the Oscars?

I think the term POC was devised because just like the white race the non white races come in all shades and colors. POC is another term for a person who is a minority, without using some term that might end up offending someone somewhere who looks for things to be offended over.

Most black/white biracial people choose to call themselves black for obvious reasons. Because they look more like a black person than a white person. Why do some people get so upset over that? I can only imagine what would happen if Halley Berry decided to call herself white all of a sudden.

And idiot at R54. That's his right so you and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck off.

And it's my right to call him out on lying, "idiot" at R56. When your mom is white, it's ridiculous to ignore that.

R12...mmmm… slavery? Millions of slaves upon whose backs the country was built? Kim Crow laws assuring the continue subjugation of the many millions of the descendants of slaves? Ya think?

Omg I knew you Americans were illiterate, but to confuse Latinos with Spaniards... It's just too much.

Btw most spaniards didn't marry at all latinos. When latino inmigrants are here, any person (not american apparently) can distinguish with 0 effort one from the other, we are very different.

I guess you guys only see a not pink/orange/milk-skinned person like you and you automatically think they are half black or something.

And I'm going to tell you something OP, believe it or not, the world doesn't end in Florida or California, there are more people and countries 😱. Try not to have a stroke and travel or at least check Instagram more.

Historically in the US, Obama would always be considered “Black”. I don’t think you were considered white unless you were less than 1/16 black.

R58 ^^ ha, Kim's brother Jim.

I’m beige colored. I have a color! I am not an animal!

Spaniards are like southern Italians: we call them white regardless of ... you know.

R60, so the US is still living in the 1820s? Lol.

He is a white Spaniard. Not Latino. I would not be totally shocked if he had some Moorish ancestry, but he has never claimed that.

Try calling a Cuban with European blood “POC” and watch what happens.

R47, racialist nonsense. One of these things is not like the other...

Not to mention the highly tenuous relationship between many of those groups.

If you want to see racism, go to a Latin country in the Americas. At one time, I had friends from Puerto Rico, Mexico, Peru, and Cuba. Each of them quickly volunteered that they were Spanish, and not mixed-blood. I am German and English with a splash of Napoletano, so I just thought myself “yeah whatever, it’s all the same to me.”

The Japanese and Australians are also infamously racist.

Overall, I think the US with all its race problems, is probably one of the most accepting countries there are.

[quote]Omg I knew you Americans were illiterate, but to confuse Latinos with Spaniards... It's just too much.

Mixed-race (Mestizo) Latinos are the overwhelming majority of Spanish-descended peoples in the US. "White" Latinos are rare. Actual Spaniards are even more rare. In fact, Hispanic/Latino people in the US used to be called "Spanish" for a long time. It's all about what you're familiar with.

Latin Americans of full European Spanish heritage tend not to emigrate to the US because they're quite comfortable in their own countries.

[quote] He is a white Spaniard. Not Latino.

That's very true, he's even from Spain. Having said that, there are also Spaniard-type Latinos and Mexican-type Latinos.

Native Americans and Mexican-type Latinos are partially Asian in terms of race. They migrated to North America via settlements in Asia after all.

[quote] Researchers usually agree that humans arrived in the Americas through Beringia - the area encompassing parts of present-day East Asia

This is a strange thread if we have to debate what race is at such a molecular DNA level.

As a practical matter, if Antonio Banderas were not famous and was walking down the street speaking Spanish, he would be as likely to be harassed and told to go back to his own country as anyone from Latin America.

Racism is a lot more about the racist's identification of "other" as it is about the place of origin of the targets DNA.

Omg what the fuck is a white spaniard???? What's your absurd idea of the iberian race?

All non-inmigrant spaniards look like Antonio Banderas or Penelope Cruz, actually Banderas is pretty brunette compared with the rest of Spaniards. For example I have his type of skin, I'm very naturally tanned (and I love it) but my cousins are blonde and my boyfriend blonde with pale skin and green eyes.

Stop thinking we are all mexicans, seriously guys travel or read or something.

White Spaniards are just Spaniards. You have to remember that Americans have different views because most Latinos in the US are mixed-race. A Latino person of pure Spanish heritage ("white Spanish") in the US is not the norm.

Some definitions:

Iberian - Spain & Portugal

Hispanic - Spain and Spanish America

Latino - Latin American (all of the Americas south of the US, and many Caribbean islands)

Mestizo - mixed Spanish and Mexican Indian

People with native-European ancestry are all white. Jews are white. Arabs are white. Persians are white.

Arabs are Caucasian, but not white.

R69, there is a whole world aside the US, really, I'm not lying, google it.

We are talking about Spaniards in Spain (unbelievable I have to clear where true spaniards, not hispanics, come from) ... I don't know the ancestors of latin people in America, but they do not represent spaniards racially, so no, Antonio Banderas is not latin or a person of color.

Do you pink americans need a diagram?

R47, American Indians used to be considered a separate race, despite decent from East Asia. We are all descended from Africa, yet we aren't all called African. Has the Indian race been abolished?

Here’s some cool trivia I learned recently, due to DataLounge:

Madagascar was settled by people from Malaysia, not by Africans, as one might think, from looking at a map. It was settled very late, too.

New Zealand was settled as late as 1400 by Polynesians, not by Australians. A little later, and the White man might have been the first to discover it.

Australia was settled about 50,000 years ago. The Americas as late as 12,000 years ago. The first people from crowded Asia to arrive in the empty Americas must have thought they found God’s country.

My own ancestors left Africa about 130,000 years ago. They traveled through the Levant, into Afghanistan, before swinging west into Europe about 50,000 years ago. I’m about 2% Neanderthal and 2% Denisovan.

I think you can't be so general with Arabs, r74. Some Levantines and North Africans can easily pass for Southern Europeans, but the same can't be said about Arabs from the Gulf as they resemble South Asians more.

No wonder that American "race" relations are so fucked up. When everything is viewed through the lense of "race", culture and context don't play a role anymore ultimately.

Then again, by enslaving many ethnicities over generations, robbing them of anything resembling a naturally grown ethnicity/heritage, African-Americans are then confronted with a problem as well. They are essentially uprooted and have only this antiquated concept of "race" (basically based on phenotype alone) as a common denominator to cling to and as something to build an identity upon. It's not their fault, however; even if they tried group the discourse beyond "race", they'd be reduced to it by all other ethnic groups nevertheless.

*by Europeans enslaving

As a Spaniard explained it to me, "Spaniards are European and white and from Spain. Hispanics are the conquered peoples."

I thought this was just racist bullshit from Spain until I had to deal with Latin Americans falling all over themselves to assure me their people were from fine Spanish families. It's an obnoxious point of view that is widely held.

Mexican actor Gustavo Egelhaaf.

Person of color?

The most unqualified “people of color” are being overpromoted and overpraised in Hollywood. Basic bitches like Lena Waithe and Ava Duvernay (I dare her to make a movie about an imperfect black person - her thinking is so simplistic) - you would think they cured cancer.

Initially, the Europeans bought African slaves from the other Africans who had captured and enslaved them. It bugs me that this fact is often neglected.

The American Indians also enslaved each other.

The largest slave holder in New Orleans prior to the Civil War was a black man.

Europeans also often enslaved each other. The Russian Czar freed 20 million serfs in 1861.

Some Arab countries didn’t make slavery illegal until after WWII. Of course, slavery still informally exists in many places, particularly Africa, Arabia, and India.

Slavery was always illegal in Christian Britain. They also led the way on ending trans-Atlantic slave trade. They funded fleets dedicated to intercepting slave ships. They paid Spain and Portugal millions of pounds to limit their slave trade (who does that?!) And they acted diplomatically. They’re not blameless, but compared to other countries they were very progressive.

Cyrus the Great, the first King of Persia, freed the slaves in 540 BC, including the Israelites. Now that is progressive.

The US made international slave trade illegal in the early 1800s, the earliest date allowable under the Constitution. it was making slavery illegal piecemeal until the Civil War. It really wasn’t late to make slavery illegal, compared to most countries, just the most dramatic.

So much of this is arbitrary definitions and delineations applied to things that are mutable through history, culture and science. This sort of racial/ethnic positioning is complicated, but "oppression" correlating to "pigmentation" is pretty common across cultures. Mexico is an interesting case - the "gachupines" for the most part in positions of privilege over "la gente indigna." Advertisements, telenovelas, etc dominated by lighter skinned "European"-like images. Sociologists used to say that the ubiquitous Mexican mustache was a signifier of European genetics (ability to grow facial hair) vs indigenous people genetics (smooth skin). It's a something problematic - Economic status correlating to skin? Those harping against "woke" or "SJW"ers or "politically correct" analyses - the critics fail to see that there is real damage done by these received racist patterns.

R85 What possible point are you making? Slavery wasn't that bad? The history of slavery isn't a poison in our own history? Baffling.

R29 Red and yellow are a no-no. Black, white and brown are ok. Don't know who came up with the rules, but those are the rules.

R84; Lena Waithe and Ava Duvernay have nothing to do with this subject. You just had to chime in and remind everyone how much you hate these successful black women and it's chafing you.

There are people of full european descent in Latin America, just like there are people of european descent in South Africa. Brazilian model Gisele Bundchen has full german ancestry. There is another gorgeous brazilian model called Caroline Trentini who has northern italian ancestry.

R87: I imagine you are easily baffled. The points are:

Slavery is much more complicated that what I inferred from R80, that “Europeans enslaved Africans”.

Europeans feel demonized by being depicted as doing something awful that others were not doing. The fact is that slavery is a worldwide phenomenon as old as Adam. It is wrong to so demonize Whites.

Britain deserves credit for leading the European abolitionist movement.

The US often is depicted as abolishing slavery very late, when it was not. It, too, deserves credit for its early incremental actions, and the North for its incredible sacrifice in the Civil War.

When you unfairly vilify people or races it leads to resentment and is counter productive.

Incidentally, international law specifies that group punishment is illegal. This is the general moral consensus that was codified after the events of WWII. Blaming “White people” or other groups today, for what some people did in the past, is wrong, too.

R84 Sounds very insecure and threatened. But that's nothing new.

LOL at the provincial american troll who believes the UK has the same demographics of the United States.

[quote] Latin Americans of full European Spanish heritage tend not to emigrate to the US because they're quite comfortable in their own countries.

Hello?

[quote] Just being a native of a foreign country doesn't make you a PoC.

Why does diversity only mean race? Arabs and Persians are generally darker than hispanics yet they don't get the POC designation. Israelis, at least ethnically, are the most diverse people sharing a common culture. But this whole thing is a farce.

The only PoC in America are African Americans. Everyone seems to want to be labeled minority or PoC because of "privileges" they feel might come with these titles. Asians, Hispanics, nor Europeans are not PoC, period.

Before there was PoC there was Coloreds. Now it's been switched to PoC. So no, if you are not black, you are not a PoC. Your just trying to move in on something historically your not apart of.

Just saying.

And no. Antonio is Spanish which makes him European, which means he is white. Not a PoC.

"Europeans are also 'racist,' but usually it's discrimination against cultures and religions. "

If those cultures and religions violate the hard won liberties of modern democracies, they are absolutely right.

I was shocked when I heard people on twitter saying that Ana de Armas is a woman of color. Where is the color? She looks 100% european.

[quote] Europeans also often enslaved each other. The Russian Czar freed 20 million serfs in 1861.

R86, apart from the Muslim Ottoman Turks, Europeans did NOT generally "often enslave" each other - they mostly enslaved other races on other continents. E.g. Britain won multiple wars against the French - but Brits did not "enslave" the French or trade them like chattels. The Czars won the war against Napoleon - but equally did not enslave the French and use them as house-slaves. The French lost so many wars that you'd expect them to be "enslaved" - but, surprise-surprise, they weren't. Because everyone looked up to the French (their art, their culture, their food). The Czars enslaved mostly people of their OWN ethnicity - because they had an archaic Feudal system where the "Lord of the Manor" controls his peasants. Ironically, the Czars treated black people better than their own: Czar Peter I was "gifted" an African/Ethiopian slave nicknamed "Hannibal" (who was previously kept in Ottoman Turkey) but instead of using him as a house-slave - Hannibal was given the elite status of a nobleman and promoted to the rank of General, granting him the right to OWN white peasants himself, lol.

R91 I guess... of course slavery is "complicated", but my sense is that part of the result of that complication you posit is "so it's not all bad, or there's no reason to assess its lasting damage on our culture..." etc.

Historically, slavery increased in the US after 1820... and new states admitted to the union allowing slavery was 1) controversial and 2) expanded the "market" for slaves. With the economics and technology of the cotton industry - slaves were the foundation for much of the economy. Although thousands of slaves entered the US after 1820, the "supply" for slaves was internally produced... slaves had children, families were torn apart to slave the "worker units" to places the economy needed.

It's deceptive to accord some kind of superior moral status to "early abolitionist efforts" against slavery in the US. Until the emancipation proclamation in 1863, humans were cultivated for sale, families ripped apart, "human property" abused and tortured at will.

That is the same way in India and Bollywood. All the main actors are very Caucasian and almost don't look typical Indian at all. There is no diversity shown in cinema or tv in these countries unlike the U.S. where you have Lizzo showing her big butt so proudly and black and Latinos are everywhere. They are really colorstruck and no one ever says anything about it.

The fucking British French Dutch Spanish started the Atlantic slave trade not Americans since there was not an America then. Now the Europeans constantly criticize the U.S. they all need to STFU and sit down and think about what they did. They even sent a trashy Irish woman and hence the trashy Trump family. Thanks a lot.

What head of state in Europe has been a POC? As in Asian or black?

r103, Leo Varadkar is the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of Ireland; his father is from India. He's also gay.

I want someone who is black or Asian not an Indian who could be considered in a gray area. A bonafide non-white whose mother isn't a white European.

R83- The more important question is : Would we HOMOS do him? My answer is YES.

R101- ALL people from India are CAUCASIAN. Some of them look European.

R103 / R105, what head of state in the US has been a real black or Asian as in a “bona-fide non-white whose mother isn’t a white”?

Also e.g. in Finland, Africans constitute less than 1% of the population, lol. So why exactly must an African-descent person become head of state of Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania, etc, lol.

No, you dolt OP.

Has there not even been a biracial black or Asian HOS at all in Europe? Apparently it's not allowed. I think Peru or Ecuador even had a fully Japanese president at one time. Only whites in Europe.

Right r101 even the southern indians the dravidians are actually Caucasian supposedly from the middle East a long time ago.

For r106

Are people just getting dumber and dumber? Europeans arent considered POC.

For ffs, Malaga is in Andalusia, which, as was pointed out many times in the other BAFTA thread, is exactly where Queen Letizia is from.

Does she look like a woman of colour? No? Thought not.

Yes - the Moors were in southern Spain. That does not mean, ipso facto, that all Spaniards or all Spaniards from Andalusia are "people of colour".

The Mongols swept down from Central Asia and conquered large parts of Hungary.

"The Mongol invasion throughout the 13th century affected not just the Kingdom of Hungary, but almost all of Central and Eastern Europe, as the Golden Horde laid waste to Poland, the Czech lands, the Kingdom of Croatia, Bulgaria, and even Austria."

Are Hungarians, therefore, ipso facto, people of "colour"?

[quote]Has there not even been a biracial black or Asian HOS at all in Europe?

No, why should there be?

[quote]even Ancient Rome had a black head of state,

Nonsense.

R115 yes why not? Unless all the EuroTrash are racists, like we're learning in this thread.

[quote]yes why not? Unless all the EuroTrash are racists, like we're learning in this thread.

Tell us R117, has there ever been a white or Asian HOS at all in Nigeria? Or Egypt? Or Morocco? Or Saudi Arabia? Or Tunisia? Or Somalia?

Are they racists too?

India is terribly racist, too. If you consider the cast system racist. I don’t think they like blacks, either.

China has never had a white or black HOS....damn racists!

OMG if you think white people are racist, go anywhere in East Asia. They're not only racist, they don't even think blacks are fully human. I was shocked by the things I heard in Japan and Hong Kong, for example.

R118, are you stupid? The point was that some English/European idiot was claiming England and Europe were so much less racist than America but at least America has elected a non-white leader, something England and almost every other country on the continent has failed to do in their millennia of existence.

Thanks r122 that is EXACTLY my point, if America could elect a non-white why can't Europe? You would think they could since they do not think all this POC stuff like the US does. Never mind what they did to India and Africa and even China. Then we start with what they did to the Native Americans, they were the original slaughterers long before there was America. Europe needs to STFU and worry about their own misdeeds.

Why don't Turks/Arabs ever get chastised in the Colonial/Slavery Victim Game?

R124 They do, but we're talking about America and the holier-than-thou Euros.

R123? Hello? Have you guys ever been in Europe? Black people here are far away from common, is not like in the US.

There are more Muslims than blacks, well for you americans, the same right? And Muslims here usually don't do politics.

So no, it's not racism if a black person never became president.

Also, I remind you you voted for Trump after Obama, so don't be that proud of your politicas choices guys.

Many people in Mexico are white. One only needs to turn on Telemundo and watch telenovelas, most of the protagonists are white.

Actually white Mexicans are the minority. They are just the most seen. R127

He isn’t white. He comes from a place where Middle Eastern people took over years ago. He doesn’t look white either. I wonder why people are blind suddenly.

Also, PoC refers to more than skin color, you old white trash morons.

R128 What's a PoC then?

R126 Muslim is a religion (something you choose), not a race.

The actual black population of Great Britain (that is, Afro-Caribbean) is under 4%. The black population of America is about 15%.

In Britain, Arab/Muslims are often referred to as black, but aren't in fact, that's idiomatic. And I'll remind you all that the Mayor of London, which may as well be called a HoS given that governing London is like governing a small country, is Sadiq Khan, son of a Pakistani bus conductor. The Mayor of Rotterdam is a Muslim, and the Irish Taoiseach is the son of an Indian immigrant father and Irish mother.

Europe is still vastly majority white, and that has only reached even current ratios in the last 40 years.

But the fact remains that somehow, whilst it is perfectly all right for Nigeria, e.g., to be 99% black African (out of 160 million people, there are less than 100,000 whites in the country) and governed by black Africans, there's something immoral about, e.g., Denmark, which is 90+% white and has been for most of recorded history and certainly for the last 1,000 years, not having had a PoC as a HoS (by the way, the HoS in Denmark is Queen Margrethe, not the country's PM - you mean, head of government).

"Europe" is not a uniform place. Bulgaria and the Czech Republic are nothing like Britain and France, which are nothing like Finland and Romania, let alone America.

So, if you're a white devil, experience racism, and oppressed in China, would THAT make you a PoC?

Isabelle Adjani is white in France. In America she would probably be considered a "woman of color", since she is half north african. Why are the french wrong and the americans right? Why only americans have to set the standards on race and ethnicity?

After the Inquisition, he’s white. Sorry.

Southern europeans mixed with north africans and northern europeans mixed with asians. Big fucking deal. Only americans believe in racial purity.

[quote]The actual black population of Great Britain (that is, Afro-Caribbean) is under 4%.

On British tv shows, every third person is black. They even have black people in period pieces.

America is still more civilized about race than Europe. In Europe black soccer players have bananas thrown at them by the crowds in the stands and are called monkeys. This occurs in Eastern Europe and even in places like Italy.

Americans, especially white Americans, love defining people and putting them in boxes that they feel comfortable with.

R135 - Isn't insisting that anyone from southern Spain is a "person of colour" because the Moors invaded southern Spain a form of "racial purity" assertion?

No one answered my question about Hungary: the Mongol hordes conquered most of Eastern Europe in the 13th century - they were Asian. Are Hungarians ipso facto people of colour because of the invasion?

And "European" as noted is not a monolithic definition. Banderas may not be European the way idiots suppose is only defined by Western Europe, but is a man from, say, rural Hungary any more "European" than Banderas is?

The fact remains that asserting that a person who isn't from Western or Northern Europe is not really "European" is bullshit. Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia? Are those "European" in the same way?

When you listen to Manuel de Falla's "Nights in the Gardens of Spain", are you hearing "ethnic music" or are you hearing Spanish-inflected music but written and rooted solidly in the Western canon's classical structure - is it therefore European music or Spanish music?

Is the heavily locally influenced music of Dvorak and Tchaikovsky and Chopin ethnic music or European music?

It's all stupid, Banderas may have been overlooked by the fucking Oscars, but so was Ralph Fiennes after giving a staggering performance as the psycho commandant of a concentration camp in "Schindler's List", losing out for Best Supporting Actor to fucking Tommy Lee Jones for the pursuing detective in "The Fugitive."

And absolutely no one in the "He's a man of colour!" brigade will answer me when I ask, then why isn't Queen Letizia, who is also from southern Spain?

I don't believe spanish or sicilians are non-white because some of them have distant north african ancestry. I also don't see Renée Zellweger or Bjork as women of color because they have distant mongoloid ancestry. But America is the country of the one drop rule, so who knows what americans think.

Italians aren’t white.

[quote]Italians aren’t white.

Tell me about it. My career would be HUGE if Hollywood didn't hate Italians so much.

R130 It's oversimplification to say "religion is just something you choose"... the great, violent, and lasting conflict around religion - Ireland with Protestant and Catholic, middle east with Sunni and Shia, India with Hindu and muslim- are much more than "how you choose to believe in God." The distinction is cultural, historic, tribal, and (because of long divisions) even genetic. What Modi and the Hindus are doing in India to "oppress" the muslims is so much more formal and drastic than Trump and race-based white supremacist. Well, perhaps just as drastic....

[quote]Italians aren’t white.

JFC not this shit again.

If Italians aren't white, then what the hell was Frank Sinatra? He looked pretty damn white to me.

Most American Italians don’t have that much Italian ancestry. Many DnA tests have proven this.

No, that is false, r146. You're the toll who says there is no "Italian" ancestry, but Italians are really a hodgepodge of everything under the sun. It's not factual.

There is Italian ancestry. I know this because 13% of my Italian DNA traces back to Italy. Just 13%. Despite being told I am Italian my entire life.

R141 - "Italians aren't white"

Really? Who knew?

So if Italians aren't white does that mean Madonna and Lady Gaga are women of color?

R140 - Renee Zellweger has "mongoloid" ancestry?

If you're referring to her quarter of Sami ancestry, they are Finno-Urgric, otherwise known as Laplanders, or her partial Kven ancestry, that's a Finnish ethnic minority many of whom migrated to Norway. The rest of her known nationality is Swiss. Her father is descended from some noble Swiss Appenzell family (hence, the "Zell" in front of the "weger").

Where did you get "mongoloid" from that?

Lady GaGa and Madonna are Italian by name. If you did a DNA test there would be very little Italian DNA.

Some of you are stupid and can’t comprehend the most basic shit.

I love this thread!

Ignorance, pretension and condescension flying proud on a frivolous, faux-controversial topic. Keep it coming, and don't ever change, DL.

I see someone brought up Ana De Armas.

She is 100% a White Hispanic. But her being white does not erase her being Hispanic. That was the brilliance of Knives Out, it was so true how White Americans see a woman like her, and even though she is white, because she is Hispanic she is “different” and less than and treated as such. They thought they were good people because they were nice here but the minute they were upset their true colors came out.

Always how it is.

Are you calling Antonio bland, R27?!

[quote]Lady GaGa and Madonna are Italian by name. If you did a DNA test there would be very little Italian DNA.

lol! So what is "Italian DNA?" Madonna and Lady Gaga apparently don't have this "Italian DNA?"

A friend of mine got his DNA tested by Ancestry. The results were 47% Southern Italian and 46% Northern Italian. I guess somebody should tell Ancestry that there is no such thing as Italian ancestry.

R146 Link please.

R157 lies. Show a pic of the results. That’s bullshit.

No one is 100% anything.

R156 if you don’t know what DNA and ancestry are, that is your business. Go to school.

Italians aren't white! This is great news!

Now we can get affirmative action. And whine and complain and blame our personal failures on racism.

r159 he's a first-generation Italian-American. Have you never seen a DNA test? His results are not all that unusual. "Italian" is an ethnic group just like French or English. I don't know why you have this bizarre idea that Italians are just a mix of other ethnicities. Certainly there is some admixture, as everybody has, but Italian is a distinct and separate ethnic classification.

This is fabulous, now I can start conversations with: "As a person of color....."

Another day another race thread.

Yeah, race isn't a hot topic or anything.

r154 "it was so true how White Americans see a woman like her"

You're generalising,

Always how it is.

Here are his parents. Quite colorful. 🙄

R131 "In Britain, Arab/Muslims are often referred to as black", I live in Britain, England - I've never heard anyone refer to 'an Arab', muslim or otherwise, as black, sorry for being picky, just curious as to where you'd heard that

r153 Ha!

Antonio Banderas isn't a person of color , he is a person of GAY.

Antonio is a person of color to Hollywood. It's what matters. It is the reason he associations were with Latin American people working in Hollywood and Latin America.

The Southwest used to discriminate and still discriminates Spanish and Mestizos alike. Any American knows this.

R168 - You can't possibly have missed, for example, Hari Kumar in "The Jewel in the Crown" being referred to as a black boy.

The South Asian and Muslim population are publicly called "Asian" even by broadsheet newspapers like the Guardian.

They aren't anything of the kind, of course, because if Sadiq Khan is "Asian" what the fuck are people with Chinese ancestry?

That's what they said about those Muslim grooming gangs in Britain, the men were described as "mostly Asian". Remember?

The fact that they are neither Asian nor black, unless they are from black Muslim countries such as Nigeria, tells you something about the tortured language of race in Britain.

his*

Italians aren’t white and were not considered white in this Country until about 50 years ago.

Actually, Italy comes up as it’s own bar in Ancestry tests.

[quote]Italians aren’t white and were not considered white in this Country until about 50 years ago.

Up until 1970, Italians were considered people of color?

I learn something new every day on Datalounge.

Sweetie, in some parts of this Country Italians are still viewed as different.

I am all for Italians proclaiming they are white, but the constant ignorance of their History, in both Italy and America, is annoying and unnerving. They’re always speaking bullshit as facts when a simple google search would teach them so much about Italians History in America.

And they were not only NOT considered white, in the early 1900s And late 1800s there were concentration camps for them and they were being hung from trees like black men.

Fiorello LaGuardia was New York city's first Black mayor.

And now Italians, of all people, are "ignorant of their history." The things you learn on DL!

[quote]Up until 1970, Italians were considered people of color?

[quote]I learn something new every day on Datalounge.

No, the only people of color until very recently were "colored people."

Italians were merely considered mongrels, as were the Irish, by the wasp establishment. Part of it was probably the anti-catholic sentiment that dominated most of the country. Remember that it was a HUGE deal that Kennedy was an Irish catholic that before then would have been considered wholly unelectable.

[quote]Sweetie, in some parts of this Country Italians are still viewed as different.

Where exactly?

And please post proof about this business of how Italians were considered people of color up until 1970.

Those are your claims...let's see some facts.

Funny how some of the most racist white people in this country are of Irish or Italian descent. Because they were the last ones to get “in” the white race before the door was shut.

"Antonio is a person of color to Hollywood. It's what matters. It is the reason he associations were with Latin American people working in Hollywood and Latin America.".

What utter nonsense. Banderas never was considered a poc in Hollywood. The reason why he associated with Latin Americans in Hollywood were mostly culturally determined: a shared language

Girls, girls, girls - FOCUS and get your priorities in order.

So sexy and handsome in Philadelphia.

Funny how the Irish weren't considered white once upon a time, they're some of the whitest people on earth.

r171 That show was set during "the final days of the British Raj in India", it definitely wouldn't apply today, still, thank you for the history lesson!

South Asians are Britain's main asian group because they began arriving in large numbers in the 1960s, and made an indelible mark on British culture and business, and of course there's Britain's historic links with India and population size to consider, it might be a little confusing at first, but no big deal. There was some controversy over the press referring to the mainly Pakistani descended "grooming gangs" as simply Asian when the first stories were reported, no so much from south-east Asians, but from Indian Hindus.

not so much from *east Asians

[quote]Part of it was probably the anti-catholic sentiment that dominated most of the country. Remember that it was a HUGE deal that Kennedy was an Irish catholic that before then would have been considered wholly unelectable.

Yes, there certainly was anti-Catholic sentiment but I think it's an exaggeration to say anti-catholic sentiment "dominated most of the country".

Regarding Kennedy, there was the fear that a Roman Catholic President could take directives from the Vatican. The worry was about the separation of Church and State. That was of course a smear the GOP used. However, as we know, Kennedy won handedly.

[quote]Remember that it was a HUGE deal that Kennedy was an Irish catholic that before then would have been considered wholly unelectable.

Are you aware that Al Smith, a Catholic, was the Dem's Presidential candidate for the Presidency back in 1928?

He lost, anti-Catholic sentiment was a factor, but he lost for a variety of reasons.

And remember too: Smith, a Catholic, was governor of NY State for four terms.

Italians were classified as “Latin” and Hispanic before white. They were not classified as white.

It wasn’t about Catholicism, they were viewed as non white.

Banderas looks ethnic. Those of you lying to yourselves are lying to yourselves.

[quote]Are you aware that Al Smith, a Catholic, was the Dem's Presidential candidate for the Presidency back in 1928?

Thus proving my point that being a catholic would have been viewed as unelectable after he was trounced.

Hoover won 40 states and 444 electoral college votes to Smith's 8 states and 87 electoral college votes.

As for being governor of NY - that's probably one of the few states where he could have been elected to statewide office given the size of the Irish, Italian, and catholic populations in the state. Interestingly, he didn't carry NY during the presidential election. He did take Massachusetts, another bastion of Irish and catholics.

Americans are idiotic about ethnic and race "identities".

For those “Italians” always running their mouths without knowing their own History.

Another

“We Weren’t Always White: Race and Ethnicity in Italian/American Literature”

Americans are obsessed with race. Antonio Banderas is white. Hispanic/Latino people are white. Only recently in America have they been considered a different race due to the language they speak.

SOME are white. Not all. Stupid.

Regarding those DNA studies:

23andMe Year founded: 2006 CEO: Anne Wojcicki

What it is: One of the largest consumer genetic testing companies, 23andMe has helped millions of people discover unexplored boughs of their family trees. The service has also created DNA databases that can identify (and help law enforcement identify) huge swaths of the population in the process. Similar databases have led to the capture of suspected serial killers. While 23andMe has resisted snooping from law enforcement, the courts may eventually force the company to provide access to its customers’ data. Given 23andMe’s reach, even people who have not signed up for the service would be forfeiting their genetic privacy in such an event.

One evil thing: At the Time 100 Health Summit in October, Wojcicki said of concerns about DNA privacy, “The reality is that, with a new technology, it just takes time for people to become comfortable with it.” The statement made headlines because it precisely articulated the gradual social acceptance of genetic genealogy that privacy advocates have been warning against.

Our respondents say: “Families delight in gifting each other these genetic tests and comparing their results. Meanwhile, the company is quickly building a huge genetic database, and in some cases, sharing that data with partners like GlaxoSmithKline for studies; in coming years, there’s no telling how individuals’ genetic data might be used, or worse yet, what could happen if that database is ever compromised.” —Jane Hu, Slate contributor

In America, "white" exclusively meant people from the British Isles (not Ireland) and Northern Europe. In American nomenclature, these were the only truly "white" people. Even the French weren't considered technically white. It was a very narrow definition of whiteness.

R196 That's bonkers. Cite any source that claims that Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, German, Swiss... and French... were not "white." Oh, and British Isles... that "s" means plural? Plural means Ireland. Geography and truth... what a concept.

PS the family in r191 post is what Italians looked like. Those super white “Italians” are not Natives. They are white people that migrated from other parts of Europe to Italy and started families there, which then were “Italian”.

Traditional Italians were brown.

Italians were never brown wtf. A lot of them are tanned but still clearly white.

No. Most were brown.

Define "brown", r200. How can Italians and South Asians be grouped together? What kind of logic is that?

[quote]Traditional Italians were brown.

Stupidest comment ever.

R192 That article is filled with so much bullshit nonsense.

In Latin America, your grandma could be black as tar, but if you have relatively straight hair and olive skin, you’re designated as white. Only in America does the idiotic one drop rule matter.

This again on DL. Multiple times a year. The non-white Irish and Italians in the USA. I do believe some of you fap to this.

R191 Who is the idiot who wrote that article?

I love this:

[quote]New immigrants had a choice — fight for inclusion into the white race or align with people of color, who they knew fared even worse than them. One Serbian worker said during the era, “You soon know something about this country. … Negroes never get a fair chance.”

[quote]They chose whiteness and sought to demonstrate their cultural and biological fitness. They soon learned, though, when whites said “prove yourself,” helping protect and expand white supremacy was considered convincing evidence.

LOL. They didn't "chose" whiteness. They WERE white, no matter what the WASP hierarchy felt about them or treated them.

The author seems to think Italians learned racism in their new country. The truth is, they wanted nothing to do with Africans back in Italy, let alone the US.

And the Italians themselves while wanting to be part of the larger society, were proud of their culture, wanted their Italian enclaves, wanted to recreate a slice of Italian life in America.

Italians came from a huge flourishing important culture, even the very poorest knew that. They had great pride in their art, architecture, music, invention, exploration, innovation.

No way would they ever chose to " align with people of color".

[quote]Cite any source that claims that Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, German, Swiss... and French... were not "white."

Except for France, what part of "Northern European" don't you understand?

The "Italians aren't white" poster thinks that northern Italians are really Germans and Southern Italians are actually North Africans. There was certainly mixing going on with some of them, but that's categorically false.

R208 The "Italians aren't white" poster has never been to Italy.

Banderas is of Southern European descent. Scorsese, Tarantino and Sam Mendes are as well. If Banderas is a person of color, so are they.

Baron von Gloeden preferred brown Europeans.

Heavens, yes. Swarthy Mediterraneans are the very best. Nothing is hotter.

DL is full of old morons that do not know a DAMNED THING about hereditary or genealogy. Not one thing.

They may have been born in Southern Europe, r210, or their parents etc. but that doesn’t Mean that is where they started. I have a lot of family FROM ITALY yet only 13% of my ancestry links back to Italy.

Some of you are CLUELESS.

R211 that is what Italians looked like. REAL Italians.

[R211] that is what Italians looked like. REAL Italians.

You are too stupid for words.

R213 The so called "REAL Italians" in that photo are as white as can be.

R214 you aren’t actually Italian.

R216 I'm Italian. Lived there for 30 + years. Tuscany.

My brother-in-law's family is Italian -- dark, swarthy, etc. BUT, their last name is Hungarian -- their great-great -great grandfather immigrated from the Austrian Empire in the early 19th century, then the grandfather immigrated to the US in the early 20th.

R213

REAL Italians.

Swim team Florence Italy

r219, did you forget what site you're on?

This is the Italian swim team we want to see!

R213

REAL Italians.

Swim team Naples taly

R213

REAL Italians.

Swim team Sicily

Gee...R213 Look at at all that dark skin!

I'm brazilian and every italian-brazilian (there are plenty here in Brazil) i have ever seen is pale and blue eyed, much whiter than the average portuguese-brazilian. The majority is of northern italian descent, sicilians are very rare. I really don't get the "italians aren't white" thing. Italy is not only Sicily.

R223 - Try looking at Spaniards from the northwestern parts - Vigo, for instance. Tall, blond, blue-eyed.

Someone should put up a photo of the late, great matador Paquirri, killed in the bullring at Pozoblanco in the 1980s - one of the most beautiful men ever seen - dark hair, fair skin, blazing blue eyes, from a famous bullfighting family. His first wife was from another famous bullfighting family, it was like the merging of two royal houses. I am old enough to remember the wedding photo of Paquirri and Carmen Dominguez: Hollywood couldn't have found actors more beautiful.

They look about as non-European, or "brown", as, well, e.g. . . . . Queen Letizia.

You don't know how to post a pic?

There are a lot of "dark" Germans. I doubt anyone would say their ancestry is actually North African.

R225 - Actually, no, I do not, thanks for posting that; that is a family pic of Paquirri and his first wife.

I was looking for their wedding photo, which I saw in HOLA many years ago, in which the two looked nearly unbearably beautiful.

If northern europeans are so fucking white, how do you explain people like Alicia Vikander, Rupert Everett, George Clooney, Cindy Crawford and Matt Hummels?

I guess you meant this photo, r224?

So the Moors were white?

Newsflash - plenty of peoples of North African were no darker than Souther Europeans. Still true, today!

Let's take Zidane. He's recognisably Kabyle (people of North Africa) and he's fair skinned and light eyed.

R229 - That one will do - but the one I remembered was of them standing at the altar together looking into each other's eyes. But thank you. It was a very long time ago, of course. His death rocked Spain, which I happened to be travelling through at the time, he bled out I think before they even got him to the hospital, so the papers were full of his life history, including his first marriage. He was gored in the thigh which is a particularly vulnerable spot for bullfighters, it's where a charging bull with its head down is likely to be level with. But that is where the femoral artery is and so he bled to death very quickly.

I'm no fan of the sport, mind; as beautiful a man as Paquirri was, I remember thinking sombrely, Well, sometimes the bulls get their own back - although I think this one was destroyed.

All of which was to say, I thought they were an extraordinary looking couple, and looked very Spanish AND very European to me at the same time.

So there are White Spaniards and non-white Spaniards?

Antonio is clearly not a white Spaniard.

Irish Celts or Spanish Celts = yum

There are a lot of dark and swarthy Brits too. Maybe they're really North Africans!

The BBC Casting says YES!

Ah, the BBC and their Forced Diversity Guidelines®. Amazing how many blacks and South Asians were in Britain in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Or how many police detectives in Bumfucke hamlets in the North of England and West Country are black women.

R238 This rewriting of history to please minorities is disturbing.

It doesn't disturb me at all. It's hilarious. And England's low info deplorable will be deceived. Just like the stupid twats in the USA who think Mount Rushmore is a natural feature.

R207... exactly the point. That list of "countries of origin..." leading logically to Switzerland, also leads to France. It's nuts to distinguish the Swiss from the French. They are literally, the same in Geneva. What... you're WHITE if you are born in BERN, but not if you are born in GENEVA. Insanity.

Switzerland is not in Northern Europe. Switzerland has the Alps but also mild lakeside microclimates with palm trees and mimosa.

Americans are hilariously deplorable on geography and foreign cultures.

[quote]Americans are hilariously deplorable on geography and foreign cultures.

If you were given a blank map of the US, could you write in all 50 states from memory?

Yes because I have 3 passports, one American.

Americans are pretty decent about geography, no better or worse than anyone else.

R242 Jesus, folks are not capable of nuance in argument. The original point was "only British Isles and Northern Europeans are white..." I provided a list of northern European countries that led to Switzerland... no one would say the Swiss are not white. And I pointed out the absurdity of separating the Swiss and French. In short, the "northern European" distinction simply didn't work.

Three passports, one of them American? Did you get special clearance from the US State Department?

I know it's low hanging fruit but here it is.

R247 well aren't your precious.

[quote] This rewriting of history to please minorities is disturbing

It’s not done to please minorities, it’s done to signal how virtuous the BBC is.

r249 Which countries do you hold passports from?

And BTW it's a stereotype that Americans aren't good with geography. Most are proficient enough.

R250 Or it could be a conscious effort to create a cultural psychology and Public Sphere where fewer people feel pain.

Movies and tv shows aren't your daddy or you therapist, grow the fuck up.

TV shows and your daddy made you say "grow the fuck up" in social media....

I'd rather not say. But the US does not pursue multiple citizenship holders and nobody has lost their American citizenship for taking on another. Back in the 80s and 90s, I believe a great number of Americans took Irish citizenship when it was offered. I don't think they do that deal since the EU, however.

R252, but it leads to a complete misrepresentation of history. It needs to be done judiciously; I’m currently reading Dickens’ Hard Times and I could readily see a black actress playing Sissy, but not Louisa.

R256 Agreed... simply lying or dissembling in any way helps no one.... including maintaining incomplete or dishonest stories and myths simply because they've been told before.

[quote]I'd rather not say.

Of course not. Some former colonial shitbox outposts? If it was France and Switzerland I'm sure you'd be bragging.

[quote]But the US does not pursue multiple citizenship holders and nobody has lost their American citizenship for taking on another.

Nobody in this thread said anything of the kind.

R247 seems to think it isn't possible.

Of course it's possible.

History is not being rewritten. Works of art = fiction. They are works of the imagination. Even when they are set in “the past,” they are products of the present, and reflect the concerns of the present.

So True

R262 Precisely. An Aeschylus play produced in the 21st century would be unintelligible to anyone contemporary with the playwright.

r262 that's no excuse for historical inaccuracies. It takes you right out of the story.

[quote]History is not being rewritten. Works of art = fiction. They are works of the imagination. Even when they are set in “the past,” they are products of the present, and reflect the concerns of the present.

I just don't think "Porgy And Bess" with an all Asian cast would be accepted .....

Opera, musical theatre, anything usually goes.

Yeah right....just try to do an all-white "Raisin in the Sun"....

[quote]History is not being rewritten. Works of art = fiction. They are works of the imagination.

Works of art = fiction. Yep, they're are works of the imagination. Until you cast a white man as "Othello".

We all know it only works in one direction, duh. Don't be silly.

This thread is America's unresolved racism in a nutshell. You are absolutely obsessed with phenotypes and terrible at genetics, geography and anthropology. It's laughable.

r272 I'll give you the "Italians aren't white" troll, not much else supports your theory.

R255 - Quite interestingly given that DNA appears to feature mightily in this thread, a friend in America who assumed he was mostly Polish, took one of those DNA tests and found out that he was 40% Irish (his biological father left the family early on and he was raised by his mostly Polish mother and family). Upon learning this, he hired a firm to dig up papers on his father's birth and ancestry, in pursuit of Irish, and therefore EU, citizenship. His aim is a flat in Paris upon retirement. It worked: he know has dual US and Irish citizenship and, therefore, an EU passport.

By the way, the report also stated him to be 95% "European", and what that "European" classification broke down into were bits from southern Europe, including Sardinia and the Balkans, which, in case everyone forgot, is considered southern Europe. Yes, Romania is considered southern Europe. The majority, naturally, were British Isles and Eastern Europe - you know, that same Eastern Europe that was conquered by the Golden Horde from the steppes of Central Asia in the 13th century? He'll be interested to know that his Polish blood renders him a PoC because the Mongols invaded and conquered most of Eastern Europe 700 years ago - bringing with them, by the way, guns and gunpowder.

Perhaps we should just band together and submit a request to Sr. Banderas to take a DNA test on television?

Well, R273... the States' Rights movement and the failure of public education in America are tightly entwined.

If you give the local politicians of the state of Alabama or Mississippi control of the public education in their states, what you get is an entirely foreseeable obsession with phenotypes and terrible instruction on genetics, geography and anthropology.

With the newly packed Trump federal bench, we will not see the end of this tragic situation at any point in our lifetimes.

r275 you do know the Research Triangle is located in the South? They're not all ignorant hillbillies down there, as people love to stereotype them.

The we need blacks in european period pieces troll is annoying. They are only cast because of political correctness and white guilt, nothing more.

Don't you wish, R277. Don't you wish. It would align nicely with your nasty racist view of the world, if only it were true.

Actors are playing roles. They are acting. They are creating characters. If we don't have the actor in the role, we do not get their performance. We never see what they can do. We never bear witness to their art and their skill and their creative spirits.

If your view, the most important thing a white actor can bring to a role, the threshold criteria that must be met, is that the white actor is up there on the stage or screen being white. Gotta be. Gotta be white. Your view of things insults all actors of all races. At least you are egalitarian in that limited, pig-headed regard.

With you calling the shots, Marian Anderson would still be waiting to make her debut at the Met and Leontyne Price would have spent her life singing gospel in a church in Laurel, Mississippi. Fuck you and fuck your ignorant view of the world.

r278 it's about historical accuracy, or accuracy in depicting the demographics of a certain region in present times.

I don't understand why blacks want to be in european period pieces so much. Why not african period pieces? Why it has to be european? Why people don't greenlight period pieces about Africa? Are they really that desperate to be part of european civilization? Anyway, the answer is clear. The west won. Everybody wants to be part of the west.

r278, it depends on the art. The further removed from reality the art is, the more elaborate the casting can be. Nobody would ever confuse opera with a realistic portrayal of the world, and so the casting can be whoever can magnificently sing the role and effectively portray the emotions. But a film that attempts to accurately portray a historical period is more dependent on believable casting; nobody would expect Jennifer Lawrence to portray a Hindu princess from ancient India; likewise, we shouldn't expect Priyanka Chopra to play a Viking.

If I'm watching an european period piece movie, I want to see WHITE people, for christ sake. If I'm watching an asian period piece or a contemporary asian movie, I want to see ASIAN people. Is it really that racist?

No, R279. Everything on stage or on the screen is false. It's all made up. Created, if you will, to interpret the real event. The costumes aren't real. The wigs aren't real. The make-up is never true to the period being depicted, but is always influenced by the fashion of the day. The accents aren't real. The castle is a set. And to be historically accurate, the older the play, the shorter the actors absolutely must be. In most cases, not taller than about 5'8".

You are singling out race for special limiting treatment. By your logic, there can be no English speaking dramas about people who did not speak English. Tsar Nicholas spoke Russian, English, French and Italian. Good luck finding an audience for that. Marie Curie could only be presented in a mix of English, Polish, Russian or French. What would you say to Friedrich Schiller who had the temerity to write a great verse drama with Mary Stuart speaking German? According to you, that obviously must be stopped.

Wake up to the truth of what you are advocating. Be honest with yourself. We see through you, even as you do not.

Sorry, I pushed "Post" too soon. By R279's logic, no more Shakespeare. Absolutely NONE of the historical characters he wrote of are known to have spoken in verse. Almost certainly not in iambic pentameter. Presenting them speaking in verse is NOT historically accurate and R279 is not going to stand for any of it.

[quote]You are singling out race for special limiting treatment. By your logic, there can be no English speaking dramas about people who did not speak English. Tsar Nicholas spoke Russian, English, French and Italian. Good luck finding an audience for that. Marie Curie could only be presented in a mix of English, Polish, Russian or French. What would you say to Friedrich Schiller who had the temerity to write a great verse drama with Mary Stuart speaking German? According to you, that obviously must be stopped.

That is called splitting hairs. And that's not what was said at all, you're just being a myopic shit-stirrer. It's about race, not broken down into specific ethnic combinations within that race. If a black actor were playing Martin Luther King, nobody would need a breakdown on exactly which African ethnic groups King descended from. "Black" is good enough, just as "white" is good enough for an actress to play Marie Curie.

It's about historical accuracy in terms of who was actually where in a certain time. Also demographics in modern times. I don't think a police precinct in the north of Scotland has a police force where every other person is black or South Asian.

Have it your way. You're still racist. Go for a strict historical accuracy which was a result of the racist policies, customs, and laws of the day. Use those same racist policies, customs and laws today and get the same racist result found in the past.

Just admit it.

All the "colorblind casting" thing is bullshit. It's just an anti-white agenda, with the ultimate goal of creating quotas for black people in the audiovisual industry.

Black people are not indigenous to Europe. White people are the indigenous people of Europe. I know that you desperately want to see black people in old european clothes because you have this sick and self-loathing fantasy of black people being "great", but it is just pathetic. Why don't you support african cinema or african period pieces? Why it has to be european? Why don't you support african literature being adapted to the cinema? Why it has to be western literature?

No, we won't admit, r286, because it's not true. I recently discussed this with the 50-something black woman who works for me; she pointed out that calling someone "Racist!," particularly regarding this topic, is specifically designed to put the object of the denunciation in an unwinnable defensive position. So, at this point, any further discussion with you is pointless.

Poor Antonio, treated like a person of color even in his own thread!!!!

Take the off topic chatter to another thread ladies !!!

Ireland issued 900,000 passports in 2019. One can assume many of those are for new proclaimed expatriated citizens

DNA, no, however I kindly request that Señor Banderas reveal his mature papi polla so we can see how he's progressed through the ages.

When people like R286 have no good argument left, they resort to name calling. It's the best they can do.

Oh, R289, a black woman explained that to you, did she? Why did you feel you needed to specify the woman's race?

Her argument stands on its own merit, or it does not. She does not get extra credit awarded based on her race. You would hate that if she did, but you yourself tried it anyway.

This is another matter in which race is irrelevant, but you have dragged it in. Why do you think that is?

Southern Italians were "othered" for several decades in the US.

"Most anti-Italian hostility in the United States was directed at Southern Italians, particularly Sicilians. This was especially true in the American South, where Southern Italians were not considered full-fledged members of the "white race". The U.S. Bureau of Immigration reinforced this distinction, classifying Northern and Southern Italians as two different races."

I have four passports. American, Brazilian, Italian and Israeli. I don't see what the big deal is. Lots of people in America hold different passports.

Why would anyone be ashamed of holding a passport of a nation that isn't rich? Not only are some of you obsessed with race, you're also obsessed with class.

If they cared that much they wouldn't have a passport of that nation, you do know you have to renew them every 5 to 10 years, right ? Not to mention pay taxes to some of the nations you are a dual citizen of.

I don't think colorblind casting is bullshit, but it certainly is when applied to historical pieces. I have historical pieces so in fact I couldn't give two shits about this, but 80s are now considered historical so there's that.

R292 for the win . . .