I find the masculine and non-effeminate worship among gay men creepy and sad

Someone's insecure about their effeminacy

Thanks for your observation, OP.

#masc4masc

Op, keep trying to butch up; it will take...eventually.

Calm down, OP. Breathe. Do you have an Apple watch? Check your heart rate.

90% of what?

Not even close.

And i find incredibly homophobic to link being trully gay to be effeminate. You are gay if you like other guys, no matter if you are a drag queen or more macho than Rambo

Didn't you do this thread in the summer or fall?

r6

It's not homophobic. It's reality. Every single gay man I've met in real life has been effeminate. The real homophobic ones are the people who bash effeminate men and put "masculinity" and "straight acting" on a pedestal, even knowing how FAKE it is.

R8: You need to go out way more, there are gays of all kinds and shapes

OP =

MASC ONLY!

What utter nonsense.

No gay guy fanstasizes about fems

There's a great expression -- He has the soul of a lion and the heart of a woman. That's the guy I'm looking for....

r17 you want a burly masculine man who's a petty,manipulative, psychopathic cunt?

I think OP is not being serious. But I know for me I’ve always been attracted to only masculine, straight acting or straight men. It’s just the way I am. It’s not a choice. My dick only gets hard for masculine men. I wouldn’t consider myself “self-hating.” I just know what I like.

[quote]I find the masculine and non-effeminate worship among gay men creepy and sad

Why let it bother you?

Get on with your own sex life.

& BTW - most of the men DL men (and gay men in general) find "hawt" are very gay looking and clearly gay.

I could go ahead and post a pic of a regular good looking straight guy and I'd get barely a "meh".

LOL @ R11 - you think a guy who spends his whole life at the gym and drinks Coors is "masc"?

You know that it’s deeply ingrained at an early age. Both gay and straight 5 year old boys hero worship police, firemen and military guys, all hyper masculine role models.

I can see what you mean OP the older I get.

Just yesterday I was watching some coming out video on YouTube by this guy who is really cute. In the first video, as he discussed his high school experience while it was still going on, he seemed pretty traditionally masculine. He spoke evenly, with a deep voice and very few gestures. Then I watched a video he had made more recently where he was at college, and you could tell he had loosened up a lot more about his self image and was saying "gurlll" every two seconds. He was much more flamboyant and effeminate. He was rolling his eyes and waving his hands. You would know immediately he was gay, unlike in the first video.

I was happy to see that he had embraced his identity more....but can I honestly say I found him as attractive has he been in the first video? Not really. But I also acknowledge that this is part of my process as well. Maybe in 10 years time, flamboyant guys with won't scare me off in the least. I mean, he was still very good looking. But if I'm being honest his effeminate persona was a *bit* of a turn-off. And I acknowledge the same traits exist within me and I also find them a turn-off. And I think they keep me from getting dates with guys I'm attracted to.

I do actively try to be a bit more butch. And I worry that if I get comfortable with a guy, and start to be more relaxed and forget not to deepen my voice and forget not to limit my hand movements that he will get turned-off quickly.

MASC ONLY!

r22 Not true, I loved Liberace and Truman Capote and Quentin Crisp

MASC4MASC!

MASC cum gutters!

It's not creepy op. It's rather quaint and fey.

What's funny is that the picture @ R27 is brought up [bold]every time[/bold] there's a Datalounge thread about 'straight guys', 'masc guys', 'country/redneck guys', etc. etc.

MASC MALUMA!

The most masc who ever masced

R29, Because he's the epitome of MASC!

MASC4MASC

That's a very masculine vagina at R33.

You know what OP, I'll find who I find attractive and you find who you find attractive.

I don't care who you do, and who I do is no one's business but mine and the guys who reciprocate.

Now go and twitch your curtains elsewhere and stick your judgements up your ass.

R34 I’ve had conversations on Grindr with women who were pretending to be men, about calling their pussies a “front bottom” and “junk”.

The one FTM called their vagina “junk” because it was to upsetting to acknowledge, in words, that she had a pussy between her legs.

R31 is hot. That's a male vag on a MTF, right? Whatever you call those things. It's kinda placed too far forward.

R33 is obviously FTM. The vagina is placed properly.

The self-hate in this thread is off the charts and truly sad. You pretend not to understand what OP is saying but I know you do. It's an enormous amount of internalized homophobia and misogyny. Or just the "division" trolls that have been infesting this place for a while now.

Fuck u r31 for forcing that upon my eyes. I was eating, bitch. However, that is a brogina if I ever saw one

FTMs are horny and sex-craved because of the hormones or whatever they're taking.

R38 another fat straight women lecturing to gay guys

All these labels! How tidy your life must be, OP. Everything labeled correctly and shelved appropriately.

r37 r31 is a Female, see the tiny scars from the mastectomy under her nipples

R38 =

R39 thanks for confirming. I've never seen a brogina IRL. I wouldn't mind fucking one and see how it feels like. Anyone tried?

R31 in handball action on normal guys

MASCFISTING

R31 in handball action on normal guys

MASCFISTING

Maybe OP can 'explain' to us why straight women find masculine men hot..?

Thought not...

OP =

Thread should have been closed after R1. Only thing creepy and sad is your post. haha.

Me, when I see 49 replies from DLers who didn't realize they were being trolled.

R51 thinks she's the smartest one in the room

I love effeminate men and men who aren't afraid to be their true selves. Phony men are a turn off for me. I don't like fake anything. It's well known that most of these gay men acting masculine are putting on an act. There was even a viral video on Tumblr with black gays making fun of it.

R52 -- very invested in proving OP wrong

Actually R53 to me it seems like many guys who are very swishy and say gurl all the time are the ones who are putting on an act. And it is indeed a turnoff.

This has turned into a What Came First: the Chicken or the Egg? type of debate.

It's stupid to focus so much on an individual's gender expression. It's all an act, but some people feel more comfortable/are more convincing in certain roles. Bottom line: a lot of hot dudes happen to be stupid too, so if grunting and speaking in a lower voice gets them to bend over I have no issue playing along.

On my profile I state I’m only interested in masculine guys. My test is to ask them what their favorite professional sports team is and what player on that team do they like best. If they can’t answer they dont get my rosebud.

Is OP a tranny?

I know plenty of nelly sports fans r57

Good luck with that

As an exclusive bottom I need a masculine guy because I’m not versatile at all. I need to have my hole filled at least once a week. Even if that means guys that are married, on the “down low,” or in the closet, that’s fine. I’m looking for a good fuck, not a relationship. When I get old (40) I’ll settle down into a roommate type of situation with another guy like me.

Let us know how that goes, R57.

[QUOTE] I need to have my hole filled at least once a week. Even if that means guys that are married, on the “down low,” or in the closet, that’s fine.

HOMEWRECKER!

I am not attracted to effeminate men. I'm just not. They're a total dick-wilter.

Why doesn't the FTM @ R33 have scars where the breast tissues were removed? Completely smooth

r48 ftw

Love this thread…hilarious! I just don’t appreciate the FTM mess and fisting grossness you skanks foisted upon us. Ewww.

For you r66

Dear Gawd you’re an awful human being! So nashty! Ewwww

R67 - I’m oddly turned on by him/her! I have to admit I’d fuck it after a few drinks.

Oh god, OP, we missed the obvious answer to your question! Quite simply, everyone here - as attested by the comments - is an ultra bottom. Therefore, they crave masc guys and cannot comprehend how anyone can like fey men like themselves. Pure and simple self-hate and low confidence.

[quote] No gay guy fanstasizes about fems

Not even other fems.

[quote] I love effeminate men and men who aren't afraid to be their true selves.

No you don't.

[quote] Every single gay man I've met in real life has been effeminate.

That's because annoying fem gays are a turn-off and masculine guys don't want to be around you. You know that not even other fems want you around either. They're just hanging with you because they have no option.

[quote] I know plenty of nelly sports fans

No you don't. You know a bunch of fem guys desperately looking for validation.

[quote] I do actively try to be a bit more butch. And I worry that if I get comfortable with a guy, and start to be more relaxed and forget not to deepen my voice and forget not to limit my hand movements that he will get turned-off quickly.

Of course he will. No gay men wants to be with a male clowning women. We want other men. If you want other men not women.

R71 - one of the most truthful posts on this thread.

R71 Agreed

None of my three straight brothers like sports and neither do I. My dad hates sports too, my mother is the only person in our family who cares about sports.

You act as if liking sports is some requirement to be masculine.

That's the fem boys fantasy of what masculinity is.

A fantasy of those who had no contact with it during their formative years.

[quote]As an exclusive bottom I need a masculine guy because I’m not versatile at all. I need to have my hole filled at least once a week.

[quote]I’m oddly turned on by him/her! I have to admit I’d fuck it after a few drinks.

🤔

R71 - a loon who cannot accept that a reality different than his can exist. Also replies to himself. DL truly has some pathetic cases.

I did not reply to myself, stop projecting R76. Just block me and see which replies disappear.

Now go back to clowning women and writing posts on how masculine gays don't exist while drooling all over us because we won't even hate fuck you.

OP, people tend to fetishize things they feel they are lacking.

Some guys just like their redneck knight in shiny armor fantasy, because that's what they think being gay is about: Guys wanting to be treated like teenage girls by guys with alcohol on their breath (because they sure wouldn't hook up with those gay losers sober).

I don't understand why I have to change my sexual attractions based on OP's politics. So since you were so big on issuing directives to us, here's my7 directive to you: Fuck off and die.

Who invited you to the party, R80? Follow your own advice, and soon

This looks like a retread of that troll thread that got the word effeminate banned back in the day.

I think r80 makes an important point.

OP what's can I say? I'm attracted to MEN.

There would be no Datalounge without effeminate gay men. Stop the effeminate bashing and back the fuck off.

Stop bashing gay guys who aren't effeminate. We're attracted to men, not men acting like women. Got it?

This thread is so unusual.

I've never seen DLers debate masc vs femme before.

Seems like it never comes up.

I mean I for one have never seen anyone post "If you're so masculine, why are you posting on a gay gossip site?"

Have you?

[quote]Stop bashing gay guys who aren't effeminate. We're attracted to men, not men acting like women. Got it?

"We"? There are a gaggle of you?

[quote]Of course he will. No gay men wants to be with a male clowning women. We want other men. If you want other men not women.

Another "we" troll.

I think your experience of "gay life" is what you've read in gay novels.

Many butcher gay men prefer the more femme type.

Time "we" got out into the world and met a few (gay) people. Your world, "we", does not exist.

We’re almost all effeminate bottoms. Let’s just take solace in the fact that we got a lot of young, hard dick up our ass in our youth. If I get it once every few months now, I’m satisfied. I just don’t need it as much at 50 as I did at 30.

Speak for yourself, Mary r90.

R91 - I speak for 95% of the homos here.

This place definitely skews bottom as much as it skews older. And no, I doubt most of them are "masc bottoms" either.

R93 - Agreed. There’s not a “masculine bottom” amongst our posters.

As a younger very attractive muscular man, I pretended to be a top to get lots of “dates.” They never knew I would go home and ride a dildo for a much better orgasm. Now that I’m middle aged, I can’t top anymore without viagra, so I seldom do. But I still have my trusty dildo!!!

What do dl people think of Elijah on GIRLS. He was SUPER SCENEY, SUPER QUEENY and SUPER BITCHY.

Tops usually don't mind soft or femmy guys. It's bottoms who insist that the guys they hook up with must be "straight acting"

In your nelly little Barbie doll ridden dreams r97

[quote]It's bottoms who insist that the guys they hook up with must be "straight acting"

Very true. This type of worship is more often than not from bottoms.

I am a gay man. I have no use for bottoms. My relationships have only been enjoyable when I’ve been the exclusive bottom. I’ve never been versatile. I’m not a femme queen, I just know what I like, and it’s a big dick in my ass!

No fem thanks. I like GUYS.

I want top guys that are so much in denial about their own femme inner beings that it repulses them to ever be penetrated themselves. Penetration is for nasty fags, and nelly gay queers. I want him to fuck me like he is disgusted by my whorish ways and wants to “punish” me for taking numerous random cocks in my ass and in my mouth. That’s what turns me on, and I had an Atlanta fuck buddy who treated me just this way for years.

OP I am not interested in what a bunch of fucking hags think about gay men, gay porn and what makes us desirable. Just shut up you cunt.

Straight women should shut the fuck up and realize that they’re not wanted by gay men, and straight men will only tolerate them for their pussy.

FF to all the posts of mentally disturbed tranken women larping as men. I don't find that shit attractive at all regardless of how butched up they appear.

R89, Is there a reason behind that preference for fems? Do you think it has anything to do with wanting to keep their masculine status or is it just a genuine desire for them? Let's say, if they were with another masculine guy, would they not end up competing with each other for masculine status, eventually one of them would end up being curtailed by the other. So would it not be less of a risk factor to be with an effeminate guy than a masculine one?

I say this because I knew of a masculine guy who was a closet case, he would only do fem guys but he wouldn't do other masculine guys because he implied that would have somehow exposed him?

There would be no Datalounge without effeminate gay men. Stop the effeminate bashing and back the fuck off.

No one said they weren't entertaining. We just don't want to fuck them.

Stop making up bullshit and thinking it is creepy and sad. It’s fucking biology. Get over it.

We're not bashing fems, we're just saying that we don't feel attracted to you because you act like women and we like men. The rest is your projection. Any adult would take the hint. You never do.

No identity politics will make my dick get hard with a fem guy. Deal with it. Or you can join Alok and that Jacob Tobia trash and write long winded articles on why no one wants to fuck you. They know, you know, we know.

Last, but not least, how about you fems date each other? Wouldn't it solve the problem? It would, but you know you won't. You insist on writing screeds like this thread at the pathetic expectation someone will pity fuck you.

Love it r109

This thread is also empiric proof queer and gender theory is pseudoscience hogwash. Posters here blatantly admit they can't change their effeminacy no matter how hard they try. That should be enough evidence there are biological components to it as we have discussed before.

Remember, no fem guy is ever asked by gender activists to be masculine, it's always the other way around.

Femmes are not fuckable anymore. There’s too many hot masculine guys in the gym nowadays. I used to fuck femmes out of necessity, but now I can get a boy at least pretending to be a stud, and that’s a turn on.

I’ve been lectured and bashed by queer and gender theory pseudoscientists and I’m glad to see at least some other people share my views that they’re crazy

[quote] Another "we" troll. I think your experience of "gay life" is what you've read in gay novels. Many butcher gay men prefer the more femme type. Time "we" got out into the world and met a few (gay) people. Your world, "we", does not exist.

I'd gladly point out the irony and incongruence of your comment but won't even bother. My experience is as valid and real as yours. It turns out that most masculine gay guys like myself today come from another generation than yours and many of us, as far as my experience is concerned, never lived a gay lifestyle.

We blended in with the other boys and had them as allies. So we didn't have to resort to clowning girls for sympathy or protection. The world has changed 70 year old queen. Maybe it's time you die, so that the newer generations can finally blur this stupid divisive line that you fem queens insist on drawing separating us from the rest of the world.

Finally, the only masculine guys I know who prefer fem gays are bisexuals or guys on the DL. The few fems I know from work (i work in the film and TV industry) are gladly fucking these types I've mentioned. They wouldn't dare fuck each other. They're so effeminate they shriek Ew!!!! at the prospect of doing it.

Masculine isn't simply a 'look' like many here are quite possibly in masc drag. Masculine is how you are, carry yourself, and behave. Many femme looking men in my experience have been very masculine personalities, and exhibit the best strengths of being a man.

Whether one finds pretty, or femme looking blokes sexually attractive, is of course personal taste. Many butch looking men are mean prissy queens when it comes down to it TBH.

The hate for pretty femme types is best exemplified on that thread about Liz Hurley's son Damian. Personally, I've always appreciated both, so long as they're genuine, and have nice personalities to go along with whichever look.

I have no hate for fems, I just won't fuck them nor do I have anything in common with them. I choose my friends based on common interests, which rarely are the same as effeminate gays who gossip and act like 12 year old girls, only care about fashion and superficial shit. I can't help if my interests in life are the same as of my brothers and straight of bisexual friends. It is what it is.

My boss is a very effeminate older queen. I'd befriend him because we do have many interests in common given we work in the same field. I just won't because he's my boss and kind of creepy lusting after twinks, it's kind of pathetic.

I've never met someone who hates on pretty fems, they just scorn at them, possibly with a tad of sexism, but hate? The ones hating here are fems who are envious of the masculinity we have and they don't. They always throw at you their terrible past suffering homophobia. Yeah, it's sad and all, but take it with your bully, it's none of my business you had a hard time because your effeminate.

You're also potentially dangerous. It was because of an envious butch lesbian with a grudge, that queer theory was fabricated.

R116 Haven't you also met butch looking men who happen to be queens with tons of muscle, and masculine props? I cannot be the only one who has met them. When I was younger, I played Rugby, and there were several of them. I've since met many in bars and at the gym as well.

Queens who are mean, superficial, judgemental, and prissy are utter turn-offs to me. I've known several pretty lads, scrawny well-dressed lads, long-hairs, etc who do not have these characteristics. I'll take a well turned out femme looking bloke anyday over some queen in masculine drag.

There exist many types in the middle of the spectrum, who aren't necessarily butch, with overly developed physiques, but sensitive, pretty, and quite comfortable in their own masculinity... sometimes regardless of age, they seem boyish to me. They're uncomplicated types, and retain a sort of innocence.

TBH, I don't really know what 'queer theory' is.

[quote] There exist many types in the middle of the spectrum, who aren't necessarily butch, with overly developed physiques, but sensitive, pretty, and quite comfortable in their own masculinity... sometimes regardless of age, they seem boyish to me. They're uncomplicated types, and retain a sort of innocence

Grandpa is horny again

Confirmation bias is a bitch, not every gay man is a clone of you OP the reason you meet mostly effeminate men is because they’re easier to spot, and more likely to be out of the closet to strangers, masculine men stay in the closet longer and tend to have mostly straight friends and hang out in straight places. Effeminate guys probbky flock to you because birds of a feather.

If a penis still on a MTF is called a she-nis, what do you call a vagina still on a FTM like the one at r31? A va-he-na?

R120 a brogina

I’m naturally and permanently only attracted to conventionally strictly masculine, mainstream dudes. I accept that reality.

I find flamboyant men to be annoying and difficult to get along with. It’s one thing to be a sweet effeminate guy who is chill, but a catty, campy fem guy never meshes well with me and my friends. I don’t like being around catty dudes.

OP = trans

[quote] Haven't you also met butch looking men who happen to be queens with tons of muscle, and masculine props?

I sure have. Some of them identify as bears and we call them Care Bears. They're still femmes, I never meant to imply that fem gays are exclusively fey looking though I'm confident that most of them are.

R123 I like that you have brought up the adjective 'flamboyant', as this is another personality trait. I don't specifically associate it with femme blokes either TBH. In general, I agree with you on the catty and the campy as well.

Funny, scrolling through some 'masc' posters' histories, there's a whole slew of catty comments to be revealed. Again, what I find comes down more for personality. Gramps is lookin' at you R118! (amongst several others)

I do believe there's something to be said of strictly masc bottoms having this proclivity toward the imaginary archetype of some 'Alpha Dom Top". There's also a huge component of their personalities which is woman hating, and unevolved. Terribly unattractive to me.

OP you’re full of shit. I’m a gay man with a tender side but that does not require I behave in a feminine manner. Stop trying to compensate at my expense.

“Butch” is not a word used by masculine guy. Any guy using it to refer to a male is automatically viewed as stereotypically gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Butch is also archaic, old school language.

#bottumzrool

R128 I don't really care what you think of the use of the word 'butch'. You see, I'm the top regardless, and comfortable enough in MY own style of masculinity! I don't at all mind someone refering to it as 'stereotypically' gay in the least. We're fucking gay blokes, and this is a very GAY issue, and conversation after all.

It is the direct inverse to femme. Gramps here is fifty-two years-old. My generation, and several that come later do use it to refer to the sort of hyper-masculine, muscled physiques on display here. When you begin censoring your own vocabulary, you begin to lose your authenticity.

I didn’t say you’re bad or wrong for using the term. But it’s the type of word that people automatically raise an eyebrow when they hear a guy say it because it almost exclusively used by gay men. It’s Also archaic.

R132 I'd seriously like to know how young you and R118 really are. Too many young men, and specifically American young men have these sorts of hang-ups IMHO. Using or not using a certain adjective, like butch, for example, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with actually being masculine, manly, or BUTCH.

The whole point is being masculine is just something which comes naturally to some of us, whilst others seem to be trying too hard. Mincing one's words, and thinking certain words are gay is part of the striving to be something you're not. Sure some can work to "butch up their act", yet it still is apparent to many of us that it indeed is an ACT. That's the main point many fail to see. There are many insecurities involved with such flawed thinking.

R109 insisting that he "acts like a man"

Yet he posts on a gossip board...

If you hate "identity politics" then why the fuck are you posting on a gay board?

Go away, Republicans.

R134 this thread isn’t about gossip.

Gossip has been forgotten on Datalounge a long time ago.

That’s true. There is much more politics and porn here than gossip.

R109, Plenty of effeminate guys date each other and have done so since forever. Almost every queen on Rupauls Drag Race is shacked up with an equally fem guy. Go to any gay club/bar and you'll see the same. Most of them seem quite content with each other. They don't act like women and they are all men. Pipe it with your homophobic shit. No one is making you sleep with anyone, if anything you sound just as whiny as Alok and Jacob.

But you rarely see m4m for “fems only.”

The only time you see “fems only” on Grindr (though not Scruff) is in the profiles of tranny chasers

Yep and straight identified bros who only wanna be serviced and not touch penis

Studies show “masculine” is the most sought trait among men seeking men.

Masculine in my mind means smelly.

Your mind is weird

I need a masculine man for sex. I don’t mind being with a nelly guy for companionship, long term relationship, support, etc. But when it takes getting my butt plowed, I need a real man!

Whoever up thread implied women/gays are only attractive to masculine men. And it's biological. Yeah, some of you imbeciles need a history lesson. Men were wearing powdered wigs, shoes with high heels, stockings, feathered hats and frilly outfits, and lip rouge with a face full of makeup less than a few centuries ago. The Victorian/Elizabethan era. The Renaissance. They were elegant, and their manners and behaviour was so refined. This is how masculinity was represented back then, and it was considerably desirable and completely the norm. Every decade or so Masculinity/Femininity goes through a reformation period. Nothing is ever set in stone. I imagine your current definition of masculinity as being "rugged" and "butch" would make no sense to someone from that time period. If anything it might appear as being quite troglodyte and juvenile in comparison.

R145 - educated men may have been wearing powdered wigs, but I would have been attracted to the blacksmith or farmer instead of the queens wearing makeup.

R77 / R109 You know who you sound like? Those sad, posturing straight boys posting on "red pill" forums. I can smell the insecurity and posturing from here.

Which isn't to say I don't agree with others who are basically saying we're attracted to who we're attracted to and there's not much any of us can do about it. There's a bit of an interesting parallel here to straight life, where there also seems to be a shortage of traditionally 'masc' men in the form of there being way more straight guys who are sexually attracted to (sexually) dominant women than there are (sexually) dominant women attracted to bottom-y straight guys. The words used - dom/sub vs top/bottom are basically interchangeable. A girlfriend of mine in NYC makes very good money topping straight guys, many of them who would be categorized as 'masc' here based on appearances alone.

To the guy who got called "Grandpa" - your posts are thoughtful and interesting. This is a topic that very few people can talk about without involving their own tastes and preferences. You can see it in that post that basically accuses anyone who professes having different tastes to be lying and/or self-deluding. To this day I cannot understand why it is so threatening to some people that others don't get hard over the exact same things they do.

OP, people want to bang who they want to bang. It is, so far, one of the few things we've managed to truly master or modulate. You see it in the incurability of pedophilia (barring castration), as one example. You see it in the total failure of conversion therapy. Legal, illegal, socially acceptable, not socially acceptable - it has so far proven impossible to change who/what people want to bang.

Hell, if people are going to start using "biology" as an argument here, why do gay men (i.e. men who don't viscerally crave 21 yr old vagina above all things) exist at all? Biology don't want nothin' but babies. That's it. Nothing more.

R146 Someone already tried to make this point but the whole idea that blacksmith vs powdered-wig-wearing dandy is analogous to masc vs femme is basically wrong. The inherent qualities of masculinity are as possible (if not as probable) in a powdered wig wearing dandy as they are in a blacksmith, and there is so much more than sexuality that goes into a person growing up to become either one of those things.

Masculinity isn't something you can put on and take off like an outfit. You either are inherently masculine or you are not and your masculinity (or lack thereof) will pretty much show itself regardless of what you're wearing, what you do for money or what you do with your spare time. The most masculine guy I ever knew spent weekends volunteering at a cat rescue, and made no secret of the cat-lady side of his personality. Real masculinity is not threatened or moved to moderate or change itself based on how others might perceive it.

There is a good deal of confusion above between how a guy looks and how a guy acts - I think the “effeminate” traits that turn many of us off are those of personality and character. Swishy / flamboyant behavior (to use some archaic terms) catty / prissy personalities - these are the turn-offs no matter if what guy looks like - burly & built or slender and pretty.

The so called irritation with catty, bitchy effeminate/fey/ flamboyant gay men as being a turn off. I find it interesting how this doesn't apply to bitchy, catty feminine and masculine straight men. Prince, Michael Jackson, David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Rod Stewart were all known to get bitchy and catty but still had hordes of people lusting after them and they were never given those labels. Then there's bitchy/catty masculine straight men, have you not seen the way they behave during sporting events. They sound just like the fem gays your criticizing as being catty/bitchy but how come they are devoid of the label when they act the same?

Everything that makes a man "a man" are what we are attracted to. That's why we're GAY!!! If I was attracted to femininity, I would have pursued women growing up!

"Creepy"? "Sad"? Maybe that's a big reason why.

How fucking old are you?

If you think Prince; MJ; Bowie et al are what most of us consider a masculine guy I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

R151 - Because they like vagina. That's the actual answer, I'm not being sarcastic. Straight men are just as gossipy and bitchy as any woman/gay man, but somehow both they and most everyone else seems to think otherwise.

R146, You would be attracted to whatever is considered to be the norm at that given time, like you are now. You're not the exception. Blacksmiths and farmers wouldn't be the norm, so I doubt that you would find them desirable.

Some of the most antifem people I know are themselves effeminate.

R156 - that’s very presumptive of you to assume I like “whatever the norm is now.” It’s quite the opposite. My tastes are highly refined. I’m not attracted to those overly-developed instahoes. I like a white, masculine, attractive nerd with a muscular yoga body and and a witty sense of humor. That’s what attracts me.

It's exactly the same in straightland R157.

R154, I didn't say they were masculine. They are feminine straight men. But they don't get called bitchy or catty or branded as a turn off for being so. Women still persue them, and other straight guys aren't put off by them either. Mick Jagger, Bowie, Prince, MJ still have legions of straight male and female fans.

The powdered wig dandy vs blacksmith argument is really one of education class & wealth. Back then, as now, many people assume working class men are more “masculine” than upper class / educated men because who doesn’t want to be taken by a sweaty hairy brute every now and again. Heiresses fancier the stable boy and shop-bottoms crave the construction worker - same as it ever was.

No wonder the women back then wanted that black jungle dick. All the men were wearing wigs and panty hose.

R158, You're description of what you find attractive doesn't quite sound masculine at all. Interesting I thought Farmers and Blacksmiths were your type. Surely you would have gone for the modern variant?

R161, In the upper class fantasy they were hunky slabs of man meat. In reality they were frail, lack of food and resources, poor hygiene, rotted teeth, illiterate, disease ridden etc,. Bored wealthy people always made a habit of fetishizing the poor. If they saw the reality they'd go running for the hills.

R162, And "black jungle dick" was running around in a thong and beads lol

The old stereotype was that gay guys spoke with a lisp; in actuality many speak with an overly enunciated "s." If a guy hisses his esses my balls spontaneously retract.

After 165 posts on this thread, one can conclude, at the very least: There are so very many ways to be "gay." Even "Gay."

I do think there's a lot of interesting speculative and empirical research in "queer theory" on the interrelationships among culture, psychology, and biology.

Life is too short for me not to enjoy hearing how you are gay, even if it's different from how I am.

Everyone prefers masc men. Straight women, gay men and even straight men.

R152 Femininity ≠ Woman. Masculinity ≠ Man. First get that through your skull. So would you be attracted to masculine women?

R168, They certainly didn't during the 60s "Peace & Love" era, or the 70s long hair and leotards era, or the 80s New Romantics era...

R149 What are the qualities of inherent real masculinity? And how does it present itself without clothing and mannerisms?

R171, Not R149, but I'd like to take a stab at enumerating some of the qualities I personally associate with a masculine essence: Confidence, strength of character, which quite often can include physicall strength or athletic prowess, yet not a prerequisite. Bravery, valor, being willing to defend the weak or powerless. Having an uncomplicated and natural way of living, regardless of how others think or behave. Strength with restrain, and aggression when required.

Some abstract things are more easily or best described by what they are not:, or do not entail: Catty name calling, bullying or unkindness to those who are weaker, a hatred for women, femininity, or gayness. Head games, manipulation, nebbishness, indecisiveness, spinelessness, are all things which come to mind.

I should add superficialness, fussiness, prissiness, prudishness, bitchiness, and being high maintenance to the defining features which are NOT masculine.

^ meant posted by R172 for R171

No one who is actually masculine gives this much thought to masculinity.

R149 here - I already praised you, Gramps, but want to do so again as well as agree with most of your answer.

For me R171 I would say:

- confidence, yes. Especially in the face of risk or danger

- agree on physical strength/physical prowess, too, as well as the part about it not being *necessary* - I think I believe there is not a single equation that equals masculinity, but that the proportions of the discussed qualities can vary by individual. I strongly associate physical prowess with masculinity, but I do not think the physically or weak disabled are somehow barred from it.

- a tendency to stick up for the weak or small (including strangers) combined with an aversion to bullying. Bullying is insecurity and masculinity is not insecure. Masculinity is mostly unconcerned with its image or what others think of it.

- protectiveness - this ties in with the tendency to stick up for the weak. But as it relates to family and friends specifically, masculinity is protective. This can easily tip over into something more sinister in unbalanced men

- reluctant but entirely willing to fight. the masculine guy is NEVER the one looking for a fight (in fact that guy, regardless of how much muscles mass he has, is almost always compensating/posturing due to insecurity, low self-esteem etc.), but he is, if needed, willing to fight to defend himself or others

- more likely to act than to ponder. Overthinking or neuroticism is not masculine

- a certain generosity of character - magnanimity, I suppose - is masculine

This is what I could come up with right now, and Gramps already said most of it, tbh. I should also state for the record that I believe men and women can both be masculine, but that it is usually men who are.

R175, Wrong. Studies have shown most men are preoccupied with being perceived as manly or masculine and consciously avoid behaviors and associations that undermine their perceived manliness

R145 living his fantasy world. Masculinity has nothing to do with what you wear and everything to do with demeanor, how you carry yourself and your biological features.

The uneducated fem poster (do we need to guess?) forgets that only the upper classe of monarchists wore wigs and spandex clothes. The bulk of the population kept wearing the norm.

The attraction to masculinity and femininity has biological componnents linked to evolution.

You can try to rewrite history and fabricate your post truth, but biology will trump you every time.

"a hatred for women, femininity, or gayness"

Agreed. Bigotry is not masculine, although there is a recent strain of American culture that sees it as such. Unmasculine and unthinking men will, in their desperation to read masculine to others, substitute hatred for all things weak, femme, gay etc. It's so common it's actually become a tell.

I read the title of this thread and my mind goes blank. I refuse to WORK at whatever he or she or they is saying, or trying to say.

An intelligent and learned man very easily can R175, especially a gay man who appreciates authentic masculine men. Having few thoughts has nothing to do with being masculine. It has everything to do with being simple, and holding onto ill perceived notions of what is being masculine is all about.

That is the worst bloody stereotype to believe in that men are stupid, or incapable of complex thought. You have sadly been brainwashed.

R147 the only insecure person here is OP and yourself., I think it's safe to say that whoever started a thread calling our personal tastes grounded in biological evolution sad and creepy is the one with insecurity issues.

If fems weren't too invested into trashing masculine men, maybe some weirdo would pity fuck you, but nowadays not even that will be enough. There are enough masculine out gay men for us to worry about your catty pathetic kind.

Go ahead and keep writing threads trashing us while jerking off to us and desiring what you'll never have.

R177 - I'm not R175 but I'd love to see those study subjects somehow broken down according to their own MQ (masculinity quotient, lol). I know that's basically impossible to do in any objective way but I'd still like to see it. I would guess the more masculine the person the less they would be concerning themselves with what others think their MQ is. But that's just a guess.

[quote] Everyone prefers masc men. Straight women, gay men and even straight men.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Cheers R176 I like your words, and agree with your thoughts on the matter.

Bowie and Jagger was/is not effeminate. Just look at any interview of them and you'll see typical masculine behavior common to most men. They perform and play with androgyny but that's it.

Jackson and Prince were classic closet case gays with religious backgrounds, give me a fucking break.

R182 - did you miss the fact that my entire post at R147 basically agrees with the premise that we're attracted to what we're attracted to? And disagrees with OP, who seems to be saying we can somehow modulate what we're attracted to?

Queer and Gender Theory are the Horoscope and Homeopathy of Social Sciences.

R188 Can you give a brief synopsis on "Queer Theory" to enlighten some of us old cats? I'm familiar with gender theories, but honestly have not read up on this. TIA

R178, As I said their manners and behaviour were also refined. Give comprehension a try. That means along with external changes behaviour was also altered. And, no that life was not only reserved for the upper monarchists. Lower/upper middle classes and anyone with enough dough would have been living the same. The bulk of the population were poor and couldn't afford to. Please educate me on what the biological features and components are to masculinity because I would love you know.

I'm not masculine nor feminine. I don't need to make pitiful attempts at history revisionism, as you have, because I have no agenda to sell. For someone complaining about femininity your comment is pretty sassy. That trademark 'Bye' at the end of a post is a fem queen marker, surprised you didn't throw in a gurl or hunty ... not even a hair flick emoji??

R182, Honey, you're fem.

R161, heiresses fancy guys with money. Guys without money are seen as broke losers. Having lots of money and being a big shot is seen as a masculine trait. Guys who aren't good providers are seen as failures.

For all the hate effeminate men get, you guys seem to think that gay men are the same as women, which is not true

R192 - I think gay men have a lot of similarities with women. Are we exactly the same? No! But we want the exact same things as women, except for the longing for children. The homos that I know that adopted a kid just did it for their own publicity and attention.

R193, speak for yourself . Just because you are a stereotype doesn’t mean you get to speak for the rest of us who are not.

R194 - in what ways are you not a stereotype?

R192 Heiresses marry guys with money. But that doesn't mean they don't fancy those below them on the social scale. The tern "bit of rough" was invented for just such situations.

R196, it's gay men who fancy a "bit of rough"

I'm an heiress and while I'm a lesbian the straight heiresses I know date guys who are equally rich. Most barely even acknowledge the existence of poor men

R197 - ohhh a “heiress lesbian.” I’m intrigued!! Can you give me any more details about your situation?

Playa

To get played

Once again, I'm not talking about (public) "dating" or marrying, I'm talking about fucking/wanting to fuck. Neither gender or orientation is immune to the charms of certain members of their social lowers.

R201, women don't want to date OR fuck broke losers.

Most members of the "lower orders" are obese

It's rich people who go to the gym

R151-Those males celebrities you mentioned are poor examples. NONE of those men are STRAIGHT. All of them are/were either gay or bisexual.

Conversations like these are funny to me because very few gay men are genuinely or effortlessly “masculine” themselves, in the way that a straight man might be. And yet, most gay men demand unfaltering masculinity in their own partners.

It’s kind of like the ever present bottom to top disparity, everyone is chasing something that in the real world, only exists in small numbers.

I’ve also noticed that many gay dudes have a distorted view of their own “masculinity”, calling themselves such when they exhibit easily identifiable non-hetero behaviors.

The default (read most common) sexual expression among gay men isn’t “masculinity” as it may be defined as exhibited in straight men. This is largely due to the fact that there is a difference between brain physiology in gay vs straight men, as studies have shown.

What’s ironic is that “tranny chasers” or men attracted to trans (which are almost always on the straight spectrum) vastly outnumber gay men in my experience. A pretty trans isn’t losing sleep over the fact that most gay dudes (who are mostly bottoms anyway) don’t want her, because plenty of straightish top men have a fetish for trans.

R205, there are other studies showing that straight men and gay men have similar attitudes towards sex and dating....and that they aren't THAT different

True R206, gay men and straight men both have similarly high sex drives. But in the case of most gay men manifests in desiring to be penetrated (orally/anally), whereas the default for straight men is to penetrate.

R205 Your post is quite interesting, to put it bluntly, yet mildly. "Non-hetero behaviours" needs a bit of elaborating on to be mutually intelligible. We're mainly not HETEROS on this forum, so I would imagine many of us exhibit non-hetero behaviours! Whatever does that have to do with discussions of masculine and feminine really? You need to make that point, rather than simply allude to it as a fact we all understand to be true, or accept.

Your post also seems a bit "worshipful" of straight men, as you imply they are the only men capable of being "effortlessly" masculine. None of this seems very healthy to me psychologically... nor is it based in any reality, either...unless you happen to be one of the DL's rare resident straight blokes. If that is the case, and it helps you to feel superior to us, by all means, you're welcome to your opinion.

I have not a clue why you need to muddy the waters here with trans. Always a red flag for me on this forum when posters can't seem to refrain from weaving their discussion into each and every thread here. If you choose to refer to them as she, then obviously they are not relevant to a discussion of masculine and feminine gay men.

I should respectfully think they belong in their own separate category. In my own experience of straight blokes with an interest in them, it has been the exact opposite of what you mention. (they weren't topping them, they were getting buggered by "she-males") We all have different empirical evidence of these types, I'm sure. I still wouldn't make any extrapolation to gay men, regardless.

[quote] Conversations like these are funny to me because very few gay men are genuinely or effortlessly “masculine” themselves,

Speak for yourself. I get hit on by women everyday and so do all of my gay friends. So far coming out has been a surprise to everyone. I guess some of you effeminate gays live in a bubble. The idea masculinity needs some efforts for gays is homophobic. I act just like any other of my straight friends which are the majority of my personal circle of friends.

Our generation was born free associating with other guys and again, without the need to emulate women to protect ourselves. Maybe DL has this notion because the average age here is like 70, but the world is not your effeminate gay bubble of the 80s anymore. Many of us didn't need a ghetto to exist. I've never been to a gay bar in my life and many of my friends haven't either.

R209 I dub thee the I Am Extremely Masculine And Young And Everyone Thinks I'm Straight Troll.

*taps sword on shoulders*

why u so fighty, bruh?

52 year-old grandpa agrees with you R209. All of my mates happen to be straight as well. I too get hit on by random women. I'm not complaining though, as I take each as a compliment really. Perhaps he R205, can explain himself better.

"Speak for yourself. I get hit on by women everyday and so do all of my gay friends."

That's hysterical since even totally straight men rarely get hit on "everyday" by women. On dating sites like match.com, women get like 100 times more responses than men.

Masculinity has nothing to do with being hetero, so your point is moot R205. I bet you're another effeminate gay projecting your ideal of what masculinity is, based on your lack of contact with real men, and by real I mean regular men in your everyday life.

If you get a group of STEM nerds or ART students, all straight you'll see many behaviors your idiocy associate with less masculinity. Those behaviors are nothing but expressions of masculinity. Most men are not cartoon characters like Johnny Bravo or The Rock. Most men just are. I never said I was extremely masculine, I've said over and over I'm a regular masculine guy like everyone else.

The truth is most of the fem queens here project a hyper-masculine ideal of what a man should be, mostly as a result of not growing up with male models to look up to. They are the ones projecting, not us.

When I say that I am masculine and so are my gay and bi friends, I'm talking about being a regular man, with a demeanor, voice and posture that is just common and blends in with everyone else to the point no one knows who's gay bi or straight in our group.

I don't stand out. Hyper-masculine men do. Both straight and gay hyper-masculine men stand out and they are clowning of men as much as those hyper annoying catty queens are hyper-feminine projections of what they think women should be. They're equally pathetic.

FWIW I've never been to a gay club because I hate EDM and never had to go to one. I grew up with people that were either out as gay or bi or came out during my formative years. Ive been to some alternative rock bars where gay rock lovers go to, if that changes anything. The world isn't the 80s anymore we don't need a ghetto to exist.

R122 part of my job is to deal with lots of different people everyday. I can't help it if women find me charming. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant.

Most gay men I know are more sensitive and self-aware than straight men. Does that make them feminine? Perhaps slightly when compared to knuckleheaded straight men, but not unappealingly so. What I am not a fan of is very flamboyant, feminine, self-centered gay guys, whose biggest concern is which concealer to apply

[quote] Most gay men I know are more sensitive and self-aware than straight men

Maybe you should meet straight guys from the arts, academia, psychology, medical and care field, nurses etc. There are plenty of straight men who are sensitive and self-aware. I think some of you do live in a gay bubble and lack close relationships with non gays in your lives and that skews the perception you have of men.

R209 - you gave me my first good laugh of the day! What an ignorant moron you are! Women aren’t “hitting” on you, they are play flirting because they know you’re a big ol homo. Women know real masculinity when they see it, and honey, you’re a prancing unicorn to them. Maybe you have masculine drag and work out, but they can tell by your plucked eyebrows and your cute matching belt and shoes that you sit on a big dildo every night.

R215 You make excellent points as well. I have a straight mate who holds a degree in theatre, and he was in a famous punk band. He's tough, and what I would describe as butch looking, but can wax flamboyant and loud as hell. (sometimes he embarrasses me when he breaks into song, though he does an impressive Sinatra) He can be quite neurotic at times too.

Fem gays stay trying to project their narrow little Fem world to be indicative of gay men in general. Pathetic

"I can't help it if women find me charming. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant."

I don't believe you. You come across as quite self-enchanted.

Seems like my comment at R205 struck a nerve. I’m not suggesting EVERY gay man is effeminate or exhibits effeminate behaviors. I’m suggesting that most gay men, no matter how “masculine” they claim to be, will GENERALLY exhibit personality behaviors or mannerisms, perhaps subconsciously, which belie their orientations.

And the only reason I mentioned transwomen was because in these threads there’s always posts which suggest that femme bottoms are the discarded red-headed stepchildren of the gay world, and they are; except for when those femmes are semi or fully passable trans, in which case there are ALOT of straightish men who are into that.

If feminine straight men exist, masculine gay men can also exist.

R218 Coming off as hostile does nothing to further understanding, or help you get your point across. Femme gays are not pathetic, as a group either. (though some may be as individuals IRL) Don't let people get you so upset that you feel emasculated. That's the opposite of masculine, it shows insecurity on your part. You have nothing to prove here.

Sounds as if you could benefit by a more femme friend taking you out for a relaxing day at the spa: have a massage, have a steam, etc. Before you freak out, know that I'm just playing with you

R218 Coming off as hostile does nothing to further understanding, or help you get your point across. Femme gays are not pathetic, as a group either. (though some may be as individuals IRL) Don't let people get you so upset that you feel emasculated. That's the opposite of masculine, it shows insecurity on your part. You have nothing to prove here.

Sounds as if you could benefit by a more femme friend taking you out for a relaxing day at the spa: have a massage, have a steam, etc. Before you freak out, know that I'm just playing with you

There’s a reason we’ve always posted “no fats or femmes.” This has been around since I first came out in 1994! It still holds true today. May the classics never die.

Rude!

r177

And the men who suppress their feminine/soft side have serious issues. It's called toxic masculinity for a reason. These expectations of men are completely unhealthy.

They suppress it because the world says fem men are inferior and unworthy of respect. People aren’t denigrating effeminancy in a vacuum.

You'd think gay men, who have faced the wrath of toxic masculinity for generations, would oppose such a thing. Instead, my fellow gay men are reinforcing it because they're so shallow, superficial and vapid. You are helping our oppressers attack our own. The lie that this community is all about "expressing yourself" and being true to you is dangerous. We are picking apart our own. Not only do we have to face straight bigots, but we have to face so many of our own being savage to us and treating us like less than human, This is not what I thought the gay community would be like.

Well there is competition for the masculine Alphas that creates divisions

Humans, including gay men, seem to have a problem conflating "I don't want to fuck this person" with "this person is therefore worthy of scorn."

I agree. Why do people make their sexual attractions into a litmus test that determines how they treat others? I only like muscled, athletic black and latin bisexual men, but that doesn’t mean I denigrate everyone else.

"but that doesn’t mean I denigrate everyone else."

Except if they're old, white, out of touch and/or 'effete', correct?

My problem with effeminate men is that 99% of them are uber BITCHY. Not a turn-on. If I never meet another gay cunt in my lifetime, I will be just fine. In Atlanta, you can throw a stick and hit 10 of 'em. Shame.

R233, do non bitchy dudes call men “c*nts?”

R232 - Your post is a textbook example of the kind of thin-skinned behavior that many on this thread find unappealing - no matter what you look like. R231 simply states his taste in men, and since you’re not his type you have to get all butt-hurt and insult him. Man the fuck up.

Your post is a perfect example of what I - R230 - was talking about, R232. Why would you assume that not wanting to fuck old/white/effete men = "old/white/effete men are disgusting pieces of shit who don't deserve respect or affection?"

Like I get that it very often does - that was the point of my post - but you seem to be more guilty of it than R231.

I've seen Gordon Ramsay call male contestants on [italic]Hell's Kitchen[/italic] "cunts" in the middle of dinner service. But if that's a problem, please write him and ask him to stop. I'm sure he'll listen.

Jinx R235!

r228

This is one of the biggest reasons why there is such a huge mental health crisis among gay men. The community is not loving and accepting . We cannot truly be ourselves or express ourselves without vicious criticism from our own. The consequences of this are as bad as facing venom from homophobic bullies. In our community, the rates of depression, anxiety, body dysmorphia, eating disorders, addiction, etc are through the roof. If we really want to progress, we need to change how we treat our fellow gay men.

That post was so asinine we both couldn’t believe it R236. Have a wonderful 2020!

Wasn't talking about fucking anyone, I was talking about the matter of disrespecting people. R231 is always all over the forum getting after people for not liking 'mainstream' things like Tik Tok, or thug rappers, and is presently defending that asshole homophobic WWE wrestler. But please, continue defending pricks like that, it amuses me....

I didn't perceive any disrespect. Not wanting to fuck someone doesn't have to = 'disrespect.' I think the point both of us were making is that it's weird that some people do this. That some people take their own lack of lust for another person and turn it into 'so they suck and I hate them!"

[quote]Not wanting to fuck someone doesn't have to = 'disrespect.'

Which wasn't my point in the slightest back in R232.

[quote]I think the point both of us were making is that it's weird that some people do this.

True. But again, not my point. I was just being snarky towards a DLer I don't like, like the misanthrope I am, but I'm moving on....

[quote]You'd think gay men, who have faced the wrath of toxic masculinity for generations, would oppose such a thing

That's the key issue femmes don't get. Masculine gays don't suffer any sort of homophobia because we act like any other guy.

I certainly never experienced homophobia in my life. I've never being called fag, sissy etc. My friends and I had very regular childhoods.

Come to think of it maybe that's why you effeminate lot hate us so much.

.

"Masculine gays don't suffer any sort of homophobia because we act like any other guy."

That's silly to say masculine gay men never experience homophobia. Look all the whining about gay men in the military - the gay men who seek out military careers tend to be masculine, but people still had a problem. Or the idiots screaming about football players having to shower with gay teammates. Nelly guys usually aren't playing football. Just because no one ever called you a fag TO YOUR FACE doesn't mean everyone loves you.

R244, let me guess, you're also white? And non-white people wouldn't experience racism if they just stopped acting like stereotypes?

You're the problem, R244.

Whoever said anything about loving me? Take your antidepressant dude.

I said we haven't experienced homophobia and its a fact many of you sissies hate us for it.

You also insist that we're putting a facade and pretending to be masculine when were just being ourselves.

Look at the hate mayor Pete gets here. You resent this guy that like most of us didn't go through the hell you did in high school or college. Then you mocck us implying we are either forcing masculinity or hiding in a closet.

Look no further than idiot r246 as an example.

People can't hide their color but masculinity is a behavior and demeanor completely different situation, don't be an idiot but maybe you can't help that.

For the record I'm a Latino Sephardic Jew so far from white I look very middle eastern with green eyes. What's your point? I bet it's a stupid one.

I understand you now R243.

You seem invested in your masculinity, R247. Invested in not being "femme" and being hated by femmes because other people assume you're straight. It's... a little weird. What do you actually think? That effete men deserve the bullying and scorn? That they're lying about being bullied and scorned? That they should just stop being effete in order to avoid it? What is your actual opinion of homophobia directed at effete gays?

If I had a dollar for every time someone essentially said "it's not a problem for me, so it's not a problem," well...

"I said we haven't experienced homophobia and its a fact many of you sissies hate us for it."

You're calling people sissies on a gossip board? Why do you even post here?

"People can't hide their color but masculinity is a behavior and demeanor completely different situation, don't be an idiot but maybe you can't help that."

If people ask you stuff like "Do you have a wife?" are you honest or do you just lie and play along?

R247 raises a valid point.

Femme guys are to gays what Hasids are to Jews-- immediately identifiable and always the first to be on the receiving end of any anti-gay behavior.

On DL, you do see a lot of anger and resentment directed towards masculine gay guys, whether that's an assertion that their behavior is all an act or comments like "she's just a big old gurlina too!!!"

I see much less of that IRL

R247, learn the concept of analogy. It doesn't mean "exactly like that other thing; identical." Literalism isn't a good (masculine) trait.

There are different guys posting here with their experiences we are not the same person but ill answer your question.

If someone asks me about a girlfriend I respond according to the situation. If i sense they're ok with it I say I have a boyfriend which is true and if I think they could be unwelcoming I lie or mislead I love doing that.

I bet you hate me for being able to afford that but I couldn't care less.

Can people control whom they are sexually attracted to? As in, pull certain internal switches and suddenly find themselves attracted to people they are '"supposed" to be attracted to?

Isn't this what homophobes say we should do when it comes to attraction to the same sex? If we are "required" to be attracted to effeminate gays (which by the way is my personal preference, for what it's worth), what's to stop us from doing what the straight world wants, and pull the levers and be attracted to, gasp, Mila Kunis?

What makes you think you're worthy of hate, r253?

All aspects of gender are habits and traits we have observed and replicated in ourselves, because it gives us a sense of belonging and not just a single individual with no purpose other than to born and die.

Still, r253 is worthy of derision, if nothing else. Prick.

It's false equivalence because you can hide demeanor but not your color, simple as that.

Why so hung up on the word sissy? The trans crowd and Jacob Tobia have reclaimed the word as a pride badge.

2 queens in a relationship is basically like lesbians. It's normal that most gay men are after masculine men. Accept it and move on.

R215, you're right that there are men in those areas who are sensitive and self-aware. I've met many. I am certainly not in a gay bubble, as you say. My point was that gay men in general tend to be more sensitive than straight men, not that no sensitive straight men exist.

I'd at this point add that gay men tend to me more critical than straight men.

Wut ^

[quote] Like I get that it very often does

Anyone who starts a sentence with "Like..." needs to die in a grease fire.

This thread is a dumpster Fire 🔥

"People can't hide their color but masculinity is a behavior and demeanor completely different situation, don't be an idiot but maybe you can't help that."

You're a real stupid piece of shit, aren't you, r247?

The most eminently masculine trait is an intolerance of even the slightest criticism, 'masc' men (gay/bi/straight/whatever) can be some of the biggest bitches around. They live in these emotionally sterile bubbles, no thought too 'gay' no clothes 'too gay, no wrist movement 'too gay'.

You're all exhausting.

You all expect your partners to be dumping grounds for all your emotions, crushed dreams when you've had too much beer to swill or after "THE MATCH". For a breathy, old alcohol smelling "I love you", followed my you falling asleep and terrible sex.

Making being "not-gay-looking-sounding" a part of your identity is awful and it takes a toll on you. All it says is: "if I act this way/talk this way/have these interests, people will live me"

This person on Twitter has Thoughts about this subject!

R262 needs a hug

Is r263 Blaire White when she takes her wig off?

Femmes are always so angry that other gay men aren't interested in them, I find it hilarious. If you choose to act like a woman, express yourself like a woman, style yourself like a woman, and turn every single attribute you have womanly, you should not be surprised that homosexuals have no interest in you. We like men here, sugar, because we're gay men. The room for folks who like chicks with dicks is down the hall.

R266 it's actually in a warehouse on the other side of the city.

I'll tell you what is not masculine. An obsession with masculinity. Also, being bitchy.

The poster obsessed with the demeanor and posture of masculine guys is just too hilarious. If anything, every one of his posts seems to prove the opposite of what he claims.

Or it could just be a troll. I'm leaning in that direction. In fact, it is probably my old friend. You really should get some help. Your writing skills have not improved and I fear neither has your mental health.

But nice work here. Even if it is fish in a barrel.

R266 it’s actually a burning garbage barge drifting in the East River.

Oh wow

If I really wanted to troll this thread, I'd suggest that femme gay guys would be much happier if they were trans and that all the young femme boys being transed now will wind up much happier in the long run.

Then I'd throw in some sock puppetry to argue that this was true and why can't they just admit it.

Fortunately I am not a troll

^^Because with or without me, that's where this thread is headed.

Just like the 501 similar masc vs femme threads on DL

It’s been a while since we had a big masc v fem thread

R260 You popped my DL Die In A Grease Fire cherry! To celebrate, I will be changing into a new caftan.

"Sock puppetry"

We have a winner.

R262's ideals of masculinity and that of a masculine lover comes out of a 1950s housewife manual on how to please your man, I hope you're trolling.

[quote] The most eminently masculine trait is an intolerance of even the slightest criticism, 'masc' men (gay/bi/straight/whatever) can be some of the biggest bitches around. They live in these emotionally sterile bubbles, no thought too 'gay' no clothes 'too gay, no wrist movement 'too gay'.

🙄

[quote] You're all exhausting.

Please take a look in the mirror and read your comment.

[quote] You all expect your partners to be dumping grounds for all your emotions, crushed dreams when you've had too much beer to swill or after "THE MATCH". For a breathy, old alcohol smelling "I love you", followed my you falling asleep and terrible sex.

We expect our partners to love us and share with us and if we are so lucky, enjoy our company and sex with us. Just because your experience with masculine guys was that of abuse of closeted cases, which is what this pathetic comment implies, that doesn't mean this has anything to do with masculinity. Masculine men, in general are like everyone else. Masculinity does not equate being crippled of emotions, stop being a moron. You sound like an immature 12 year old girl.

[quote] Making being "not-gay-looking-sounding" a part of your identity is awful and it takes a toll on you. All it says is: "if I act this way/talk this way/have these interests, people will live me"

Maybe for effeminate guys like yourself it may take a toll, you shouldn't be trying to be something you're not I completely agree with you on this, but for us being masculine is not an effort it's just what we are, we're not spending any energy trying to perform. Just like the majority of men out there we just are. I'm sorry if you're a minority within a minority but it is what it is.

For the record I've never said I have anything against fem gays other than I'm annoyed by the mincing catty kind and I wouldn't fuck you because you remind me of women. You're the ones shitting on us with some very paranoid ideals of what we are and do.

I have stood up for fem guys before specially if I see people calling you names, so you can thank my masculinity for that too.

R31 eeeew, I am feeling triggered looking at that

I'm done with this stupid thread but before I go I'll leave you with this great piece of masculinity worship.

Take care mincing queens and masculine trolls.

"For the record I'm a Latino Sephardic Jew so far from white I look very middle eastern with green eyes. "

Were you masturbating when you conjured that one up?

[quote]I'd suggest that femme gay guys would be much happier if they were trans and that all the young femme boys being transed now will wind up much happier in the long run.

Of course they would, they get to be called "stunning and brave" on social media! Femme gay boys don't really get that kind of adulation, unless they declare themselves to be 'non-binary', like the aforementioned Alok and Jacob.

So much insecurity and intolerance evidenced by many of these posts. It is rather disappointing that the younger posters have benefitted so little of coming of age in a more tolerant and wiser time. One should think they would be comfortable enough in their own skin to embrace our differences.

Translation for the youth, embrace our differences isn't a euphemism for "go fuck a femme". It has nothing to do with your sexual tastes, but rather respecting people as your fellow man, not to mention your gay brotners. Too many here seem threatened by obvious out gay men, AND femmes. This doesn't seem like any kind of liberation to me, despite the virtues extolled here by so many about being born in a more recent time. People are conflating being closeted or on the "down-low" with being masculine here. Not at all the same thing in my estimation.

The further I read this thread, it's quite telling how so many masculine-identified young men here seem deeply troubled, unkind, disrespectful, as well as unsophisticated. I'm really beginning to think OP called it right by describing this as sad. There are many creepy aspects to the many points of view here as well. The worst is the denial of homophobia, simply because one hasn't suffered from it first hand. Those who have deeply ingrained homophobia, or believe it is evil, bad, or sinful, do not care how masculine you lucky young men are. Once they find out, or you trust in the wrong "selected and safe" person, and tell them, they will not treat you any differently. You're just insulating yourselves, lying outright in some cases, and not living as strong self actualised men. That is the antithesis of masculine to me.

R280, polls show trans people are less accepted than gays. Why do you think Trump is banning trans people from the military but not gays?

R282 Trump was only testing the limits of what he could get away with. Going after trans, who have no popular support in the military or in Congress was easy. As there was no protection for them in the military, he had no legal challenges banning them.

Gays are only protected because Congress repealed DADT and explicitly made this a non-issue legally. Were the Republicans to regain the House, they'd certainly reinstate DADT no matter what lies they tell today.

Politicians always lie to get votes, and the ones who say they don't lie are the biggest liars of all.

[quote] The further I read this thread, it's quite telling how so many masculine-identified young men here seem deeply troubled, unkind, disrespectful, as well as unsophisticated. I'm really beginning to think OP called it right by describing this as sad

Fem grandpa is babbling to himself once again

Indeed. Fem grandpa didn't take his meds. Not a single person here denied homophobia, quite the opposite we said we had the privilege of not suffering any because we act like anyone else and mingle and we're not targets of it. Unlike what you say, we acknowledge our luck. Way to distort reality to fit your bias.

[quote] So much insecurity and intolerance evidenced by many of these posts

Right, like OP starting a thread to piss on people who has what he wishes he had.

You call us intolerant but you're the ones calling us unsophisticated, based on some retrograde ideal of masculinity equating men to stupidity and lack of manners.

We're not threatened by fem gays, some of us find you annoying with your over the top flamboyance and others, like me, just plain ignore you and steer clear from your prissy shallow world. We do the same to annoying women with the same behavior you try to replicate.

Who said we need "liberation"? Most of us just want to live like anyone else. You're the ones whining like babies.

If anything your post shows some deep resentment toward the world and others who have what you don't.

Welcome to life my friend. We all resent something we can't have. Join the fucking club.

Some of us are sophisticated enough not to share it with the world by starting stupid threads to piss on what we don't have.

Most gay men don't find this attractive.

Fortunately for Weir, there is a small number who do.

I know this was mentioned on another thread but it's hard to believe that 1920 is now 100 years ago.

Sorry DL people I'm tired this morning. I meant to post this on the Underwhelm me thread.

R285 Happy New Year to you too. Why do you still sound so defensive? You twisted much of the constructive criticism I, as well as other posters attempted to provide. None of my posts were hostile toward you, or the other self-identified young and masculine posters. In an effort to clarify, and to "resist the twist" you've attempted to put on my words, I shall reiterate two points. No one said you needed to be 'liberated' I has simply echoed what some of your other peers described as coming of age in a more liberated time. What I did state was there's a difference between being masculine, and on the down low, or partially closeted. It doesn't sound very brave to me, essentially, and I equate bravery with a genuine or authentic personality. I think we've made enough of a case here that appearances are not everything when it comes to others, and how we perceive masculinity.

Furthermore, I had described prevailing attitudes, amongst many of these posts, and never did I resort to name-calling, as many insecure posters have here.

Grandpa takes delight in schooling those who are masc

Funny....because no ones paying any attention to him

If you're effeminate you simply can't be in the closet or on the down low. You may deny you're gay all day long, but people will assume you are, even if you aren't. Your point is moot. In order to hide you must be able to blend in, otherwise you're not in the closet, don't be delusional.

[quote] and never did I resort to name-calling, as many insecure posters have here

You didn't call us, and I'm paraphrasing it, "deeply troubled, unkind, disrespectful, as well as unsophisticated." ?

Fem grandpa, maybe your Alzheimers is catching up.

Again, R291 , your posts are the queeniest ones in the thread. I can only imagine how much of a caricature you must be to people who actually know you IRL.

Oh my

Gay men like MEN, not women. I don't get what's surprising.

It’s sad how gay men grow up to be among the worst perpetrators of toxic masculinity. They become that way because they were bullied and/or abused as a child, or just strongly influenced by a culture of violent and stoic “manhood” where empathy is the ultimate weakness.

My life improved greatly when I rejected all of that.

I love OP's statistics and theories.

I’m so sick of people tossing out the words “toxic masculinity.” Masculinity in all it’s forms is wonderful.

^ Hawt

I agree, OP. Women are behind trying to shame men for liking men.

One can be empathetic And masculine at that the same time. The attempt to appoint all masculinity as wrong is tiring

Most people can tell a guy is gay around 60/70 percent of the time. Computers can tell, over 80% of the time. Behavior and speech are only confirmation of what had already been deemed probably. Feminine or masculine isn't really much of an issue for the public at large, only to the individual.

R301, where did you hear that?

Sorry to break it to you Masc Bottoms but you cannot be masculine and a bottom. I don’t care how many muscles you have.

What do we mean by masculine anyway? Muscles mean nothing. In fact, as a top, nothing turns me off more than a butch bottom. Doesn’t mean I want someone super femme.

I am a gay nerd. Not masculine, I guess, but no one ever can tell I am gay, I guess because my nerdyness cancels it out.

I think most of us are attracted to the people we are just attracted to. As human beings, that's what we're entitled to.

R302, in a study. Google it; they are teaching AI face recognition and want to see how the computer fares compared to humans.

r305

I do think there's truth to it, BUT I wish it didn't exist because it will no doubt be used by homophobic rule one day to target gay people.

R71, The only thing hurtful about your post was all the hyperbolic shite. Plenty of fem guys date each other obviously there's desire there. Maybe come out from your basement once in a while so you can actually see the truth? And the rest of your feedback reeks of bitterness.

And R72, is a moron for falling for R71 bullshit lol

OP, it may not be about self hate, maybe they feel better about themselves if they feel they're percieved as masculine (with effeminate qualities or not). Everyone in entitled to present themselves as they choose. Within reason, not talking about surgery addicts, or if their chosen expression is harmful.

Cultural norms defining an abstract and evolving conceptual definition cannot be generalized so easily.

[quote] Computers can tell, over 80% of the time.

And that's the dumb computers.

The smart ones realize it the first time you type "seancody.com" into the search bar.

R303- I guess you might be similar to the character of Ted Schmidt on Queer As Folk.

LIKE OMFLNG IF A TOTES MASX BRO DOESNT FIND ME AND MY MAKEUP A TURNON HE’S A SELF HATING HOMOFACIST, INCISTENT UPON UPHOLDING HETERONORMATIVITY AND TAKING OUT HIS INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA ON US FEM GODDESSESS1!1!1!1!1!1!!1 reeeee

For all his bashing.....r311 sounds like a hysterical fem

Totes !1!1 to the DRAG RACE YASSSSSSS (barfs rainbow1!1!1!!!!!111!1!16]…]}8[^

R312 Totes !1!1 to the DRAG RACE YASSSSSSS (barfs rainbow1!1!1!!!!!111!1!16]…]}8 - [^. /s Grow up snowflake I wasn’t fem bashing just calling out entitlement, most people like masculine dudes get over it.

R314, only Republican idiots use "snowflake" as an insult

It's bottoms who insist their partners be masculine

R315 Lol yup only republicans use snowflake no one else can use the word without spontaneously combust. Most tops want masculine bottoms, most people who date men want them to act like one lol.

R316, it's a Republican talking point

And I know plenty of tops who like twinks and femmier guys

R317 Cool, I’ve known plenty of tops who like masculine guys.

Bump

I prefer guys who are NEITHER masculine nor effeminate.

Ummm kay

I’m just naturally attracted to guys like this. Masculinity is hot

The whole "top / masculine / superior vs. bottom / feminine / inferior" bs. is what you get when people try to push gender roles & hierarchy system onto other people.

"Let me find a way where I can look down on you! Oh, you take it up the ass? Guuuurl, bye!".

[quote]I find the masculine and non-effeminate worship among gay men creepy and sad

Aww, who hurt you my delicate little flower

Come, let me hold you in my big strong arms

Hehe

Feminine men don't make me erect. That's all I know.

Me too. I can be attracted to a hot stranger dude the first time I see him based on pure physical attributes, but the moment I detect any feminine mannerisms or traits, I completely lose all attraction. It’s instant and complete

isn't Butch used for masculine lesbians?

I mean "isn't Butch used for lesbians?"

Yep

Masculine lessons