Name a better female singer than Aretha Franklin.

Check and mate, my friend, check...and mate.

I think she's really overrated tbh, along with the likes of Whitney and Mariah. I prefer more unconventional voices like Bjork.

Gladys Knight

Ella Fitzgerald

R2 congrats on announcing yourself as having ZERO taste and ZERO knowledge about singing and music. Bjork? what a joke

Dionne Warwick

Marilyn McCoo

r2 Sis, Bjork sounds like a dying cat’s final screams. Your strange taste doesn’t make more conventional sounds overrated. I prefer to listen to the music of Prince over Pavarotti but I’m not delusional about their vocal talent.

R5 has stated her boundaries. Bjork is an excellent singer.

Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Barbra Streisand, Eydie Gorme, Barbara Cook, Linda Ronstadt, Phyllis Hyman...just to name a few.

Aretha is queen, but I love Bjork as well. No need to trash the strange little Icelandic elf just because she was compared to Queen Aretha.

r10 Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughn are the only respectable choices on your list.

What's the name of that black gal who rolls around all over the floor and kicks off her shoes? She hurts my ears whenever I hear her sing... well, belt something out of her body and mouth. But, the blacks and the gays LOVE her... Would she be eligible for this thread?

I love Aretha. LOVE her. But I hate these threads. You cannot compare singers of different genres and styles. You just can't. It's very unfair. I love Gladys Knight. I once knew Gladys and she is just a real sweetheart. Extremely talented. I love her work. But she is not Aretha.

These threads allow us to angrily slap each other, r14. If it weren't Aretha, it would be something else. So it might as well be Aretha.

r13 No, Patti Labelle is not eligible

Well it's not an absolute measure. Obvs, people's taste comes into play.

Leontyne Price.

THREAD CLOSED

My taste is the absolute measure. Everyone else just has opinions.

Whitney

It doesn't matter because they all want(ed) to be....

MISS ROSS!

Why is Patti not eligible? She pays all her taxes and takes care of her family, something Aretha never did.

R21, Diane Ross couldn't carry a tune is a bucket. She had to fuck the boss to get a promotion.

I little of Aretha goes a long way. Especially when she is singing gospel. It can get a bit monotonous. She needs a really good song with a good melody.

R23, is that how she got a zillion hits and is a legend.

If fucking Barry Gordy is all it takes, where do I sign up?!

Whitney and Mariah but both were influenced by Aretha so...

Aretha just became screechy in her later years. I can’t listen to her music from the last 30 years

r22 Are we discussing personal character or talent? The list of the most talented singers of all time would look nothing like the list of the most moral singers of all time.

I would argue Donna Summer. Why? Go listen to "Dim All the Lights" on her 1979 album "Bad Girls" and also to "MacArthur Park" on her 1978 album "Live and More". This woman can hold notes like crazy. Why do you think she became the Queen of Disco?

R24, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. I like when Aretha sings "What a Fool Believes" on her 1980 album "Aretha". She brings the dance/disco in it, but touches it with gospel-flavored tone. I think she sings it better than Michael McDonald himself with the Doobie Brothers.

R27, Aretha smoked cigarettes up until 1998, I think. The reason why I think it was 1998 is because she had released "A Rose is Still a Rose" (which is one of my favorites) and then she took over singing "Nessun Dorma" from Pavarotti.

R27, that's what a lifetime of smoking and giant boobs falling out of your dress in front of Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes will do. Patti LaBelle never did that and she's a kind, genuine person. Her voice lifts a person's spirit.

Barbra

My favorite Re

r17 Why didn’t you just say you can’t listen to her past the 1970s so we all wouldn’t have to do the math.

Ethel Merman

I never liked her songs. I didn't want to sock it to her, a little respect. I thought I must be a racist, even though I liked plenty of other black artists, but no, I just didn't like her songs. Until the "Who's Zoomin' Who?" album. I played that a lot in the '80s, a time when I had mostly given up on popular music.

I like Linda Ronstadt, the Ronettes, the Crystals, Gladys Knight, Lesley Gore, and Dusty Springfield.

[quote]She had to fuck the boss to get a promotion.

The same boss who was fucking Chris Clark, the only white girl signed to Mowtown, about the same time.

Diane did however let Ed Sullivan perform a dirty Sanchez on her in the dressing room during rehearsals of the group's third appearance on the show.

R34, Ethel was just loud and annoying.

R36 LOL, now Florence was the girl in the Supremes who could really sing!

I 'ave outsang the Aretha before, yes.

Cleo Laine.

Helen Shapiro

From an interview with TheGuardian:

"Aretha's favourite female vocalists are Judy Garland, Shirley Bassey and Clara Ward."

Streisand was a better singer.

R42, I'm not surprised one diva bitch would admire another in Ms. Bassey.

r39 Outscreamed the Aretha.

"She once was asked to define talent and replied, “it means you’ve got something going on.” This may sound evasive but, of course, she was right. She could be a tough arbiter of talent but recognized singular performers. She particularly admired Judy Garland’s ability to sing from the soul and move audiences. "

June Christy, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Nina Simone, Maria Callas, Lena Horne...

"she (Aretha) calls Judy Garland "one of the greatest singers there was.""

[quote][R21], Diane Ross couldn't carry a tune is a bucket. She had to fuck the boss to get a promotion.

It paid off. A girl has to do what a girl has to do...

-zillion hits and is a legend

-OSCAR nominee

-GRAMMY recipient

-TONY winner

-Net worth over $250 million.

-Kennedy Honors recipient

-Presidential Medal of Freedom

and much more!

OH! And, our poor Aretha--Aretha Franklin died with a reported net worth of $80 million

R49, Ross doesn't have "zillions of hits" without the Supremes. And she married a billionaire.

r47 Isn’t it about your bedtime? Are you waiting for the nurse to tuck you in for the night?

THIS IS THE GAL! THIS. IS. THE. GAL!!!!

What's her name?

Whitney for overall tone, technique and range

Donna Summer for the same 3

Jennifer Holliday technique mostly

They all were influenced by Aretha who was the innovator but all 3 surpassed her in terms of talent (if not popularity in the case of the latter 2)

R51 No I manage just fine, I'm in my 40s. I just have excellent taste.

Petula Clark

Annie Lennox

There are a lot of great singers- Aretha is one of a small handful. It’s silly to compare the very best of them- of which she is surely one.

[quote]The discography of American singer Diana Ross, the former lead singer of The Supremes, consists of 24 studio albums and 115 singles. 27 of her singles reached the Billboard top 40 in the US, 12 of them the Billboard top 10, and six of those reaching number one, placing her in a tie for fifth among the top female solo performers who have reached the top spot there. In the UK, she amassed a total of 47 top 40 singles with 20 of them reaching the top 10 and two of those reaching number one. In the US, 17 albums reached the Billboard top 40, four of those the top 10, and one album topping the chart. In the UK, 26 albums reached the top 40, eight of those the top 10, and one album topping the chart. Ross had a top 10 UK hit in every one of the last five decades, and sang lead on a top 75 hit single at least once every year from 1964 to 1996 in the UK, a period of 33 consecutive years and a record for any performer. As of 2016 she continues to collect gold and silver awards for UK sales of her many greatest hits compilation albums. During 2018 four of her singles earned a silver certification in the UK, each passing 200,000 in sales since 2004/2005. The singles were "You Can't Hurry Love" (with The Supremes), "Baby Love" (with The Supremes), "I'm Coming Out" and "Endless Love" (with Lionel Richie).

"Why can't you give me the respect that I'm entitled to? Why can't you treat me like I would be treated by any stranger on the street?"

I found her a little raspy. Not enough clarity.

Angela Bofill

R58, probably also because Miss Ross Is an alcoholic and was busted and jailed for a DUI.

Miss Ross is a better entertainer and star, not a better singer.

But as already pointed there are several better SINGERS than Aretha, Whitney being the obvious choice.

Aretha did write some songs and was an amazing piano player too though

Regina

Aretha was always too... hmm... how shall I write this? She was always too "urban" for my liking. But, I'll tell you who is a great singer but unfortunately never had a good manager, a good song, or a good rendition and/or revision of a song. That would be Cissy Houston. The reason why Whitney was so good was because of her mother.

Whitney Houston had a great voice but she was one of the worst singers.

Good in her early days with the fun pop numbers, but she blew it later on with her self indulgent caterwauling. Really lacked skill as a songstress.

She was shrill, painfully so.

r65 That might be the Whitest thing I’ve ever read on here. Congratulations

Caterwauling????

Beyonce.

As a matter of fact, Aretha was influenced by Bey.

“Early Whitney” was at her best singing R&B too. I can’t imagine raving about How Will I Know when You Give Good Love is right there.

Vocal abilities, compared to Aretha or Gladys or Patti or Stephanie or Phyllis or the female vocalist on my Carnival Cruise, Miss Ross comes up short. She, Janet JLo and Paula Abdul prove that you don’t have to be a good singer to make hit records.

A second vote for Ella Fitzgerald and some of thsoe 1940s Big Band era soloists could sing rings around Franklin.

R67 You probably just adore the dreck that is her version of 'I Will Always Love You" and so typifies her approach to a song.

R39 uh you're neglecting the 20 year difference between them. Aretha was around 50 by then while Celine was still young. Celine in her 50s would have trouble being louder than a powerhouse in her 20s/30s too

Patti LaBelle is really the only one who could outsing almost anyone when she was in her 40s and 50s.

Patti's cover of Aretha's "Ain't No Way" is untouchable. At her best Patti is better but Aretha knew how to consistently use her voice better

Ri Ri learned at the knee of the real queen: Mahalia Jackson. Aretha is very good, but not even the best of her era. Patti LaBelle could sing her off the stage anytime, anyplace. Too many years of smoking took a big toll on Ri Ri’s voice. Take a listen to “Nessun Dorma (cringe)” live version on YouTube for an example. Good thread though.

Hunny you have to remember Aretha came out of the Church and her roots were gospel. She developed her own unique R&B style, but those Gospel roots were always there.

Here's one of my favorites: This is gorgeous.....

R76, Aretha came out of the Church, yet got pregnant at age 12/13? No....

Taylor Dayne

[quote]Patti LaBelle is really the only one who could outsing almost anyone. Patti's cover of Aretha's "Ain't No Way" is untouchable. At her best Patti is better but Aretha knew how to consistently use her voice better.

I'm telling y'all, huntys... DO NOT mess with these queens, (ESPECIALLY them black ones), when if comes to this woman who always looks like she is having a medical seizure, contortions, possessed by something, or whatever else, whenever she screams something that is supposed to be called a song.

[quote]Aretha is very good, but not even the best of her era. Patti LaBelle could sing her off the stage anytime, anyplace.

Nobody knows who she is outside of the Apollo...

Just look at this mess heyah...

Patti LaBelle cannot wash Aretha's dirty laundry. She shouts. She screams. She grates.

Yo ko O no

Driving a Corvette, Mustang, Dodge Charger, Dodge Challenger.

LOL. Sorry, wrong thread.

Shirley Bassey in her prime. Her version of the song from Sunset Boulevard "As If We Never Said Goodbye" that she sang in her 1996 Television Special blows the roof off and receives applause mid song. Please post if you can. Thank you

Alison Krauss and she has the Grammy awards to prove it.

Patti LaBelle on Ariana Grande:

"Ariana can sing me under the table—and listen, I can sing."

Natalie Cole was also referred to as The Queen of Soul, which rankled Miss Franklin to no end.

Patti Austin

Adele...even Aretha thought she was fabulous.

[quote]Natalie Cole

I was going to mention Natalie Cole. Her voice was a bit too nasally to me but Cole was extremely talented! She could nearly sing anything AND impromptu. She sang jazz, pop, rock, R&B... She wasn't just a scion of a famous singer who could simply hold a tune. She was quite talented!

“There are only a handful of great singers. Ella Fitzgerald, Lola Beltran (I’ve forgotten the third)” Linda Ronstadt.

“She was the best, amongst all of us who sung, she was the best.” Johnny Mathis on Ella Fitzgerald.

Ella Fitzgerald: fabulous voice, impeccable diction, great taste in material. Also cold, robotic, soulless.

Well she sure isn’t Kathy Lee Gifford

Doris Day

Her career is probably unmatched by any singer, just an amazingly deep catalog. So versatile. My 2 favorite Aretha tracks, the progressive funk/jazz Go Up Moses, and the off the hook rocker Sisters are Doin' it For Themselves (with Eurythmics) are not what you'd expect from her...at all.

^Oh Holy Moses, hold me Datalounge! Go Up Moses was Roberta Flack, and I'm swearing off posting under the influence of Ambien! Gawd!

r73 I think Whitney was the greatest female singer of all time and no, I don’t like her version of I Will Always Love You. I don’t like any version of that song. I don’t think it typifies who she was as a singer at all.

I second that, R6. Dionne was Aretha's contemporary. Psychic Friends notwithstanding, Dionne was a singer with more range. Aretha often was one-note: too much screaming & yowling.

R101 I refer you to R77.

Chantusa Jones

Greta Thunberg

It would be helpful to acknowledge that comparing natural voices to trained ones (e.g., operatic ones, with all due respect to Leontyne Price) who have to put over unmiked performances of theatrical pieces lasting two or more hours is not productive.

Even comparing big band and jazz singers to gospel-blues-rock singers is an apples and oranges game.

OP should have clarified the thread's title to say, Name a better female pop singer than Arethan Franklin.

Where for instance in terms of emotional impact would you put Billie Holiday compared to Franklin?!

Karen Carpenter was the best pop singer of all time.

[quote]I think Whitney was the greatest female singer of all time

You have dreadful taste.

At least Aretha tackled the standards and jazz.

Whitney's catalogue is mostly sub-standard. And her attempts at serious music are laughable.

[quote] I Will Always Love You. I don’t like any version of that song.

Again: zero taste.

[quote] I don’t like any version of that song. I don’t think it typifies who she was as a singer at all.

If any song typifies Whitney Houston it's that song and her over-blown rendition.

I don’t think it typifies who she was as a singer at all.

I never understood Aretha's appeal. Never. There are soooooo many other better singers out there. Whitney, Celine, Barbra, KD Lang, etc.

Sorry for the typo. Last line "I don’t think it typifies who she was as a singer at all" should be eliminated.

while I enjoy many of Aretha's songs, I never listen to an entire album or even choose individual songs to listen to--I hear her whenever she's playing the bcakground at a store or on the radio.

She's the Ethel Merman of soul

Whitney’s best vocal performance was I Have Nothing...it was an amazing old school ballad and she sang the hell out of it!

Gladys Knight is so underrated here. DLers rarely talk about her which is absurd. She has always had a better voice than Aretha AND she can still outsing majority of "singers" today at her age.

I am now going to go and stream "Midnight Train to Georgia"

^She's a chitlin' circuit singer, singer

Shirley Bassey

These threads are only started to spark racial animus. ALL of these women (and, I mean ALL of them) are talented in their own right--even the gal that rolls all over the floor, barefoot, and in contortions.

Florence Foster Jenkins

R65 needs an ear exam. Think what you want re Whitney’s material, her natural tone, resonance, range and technique are unparalleled

"These threads are only started to spark racial animus."

Shut the fuck up.

Pia Zadora

Rosemary Clooney

Sam Smith

Now, listen to this. She was in her 70's when this performance occurred. Remember, she is singing live in a church and there isn't anything else really special.

Cissy Houston Sings to niece Dionne Warwick

Joy Reid

Barbra, baez, Ella, Nina, MC garrigle, ronstatd, holiday, I litterally can think of 50 singers who are better

R121, they is not female.

Barbara Cook and for the person that said Dionne Warwick, did you see her on GMA yesterday? She was singing a new Christmas song, killed it and I mean really killed it, So out of tune it was pathetic. Time for her to retire for good.

R126 - Warwick was me, and at this point in her life, most singers have no voice left and they're stupid to try.

But that doesn't mean she wasn't a first-class pop singer in her prime.

Ever hear Maria Callas before and after she shredded her vocal talents?

Franklin was a child prodigy. Smokey Robinson tells of the first time he ever saw her. As a kid, he went to the Franklin house and heard someone singing and playing the piano. He peaked into the room, "and there was this six year old girl singing and playing the piano like she was an adult." Aretha was a self-taught piano player from a very early age - learned by ear and by duplicating what she heard on records. And those in the business insist that she had a very special way of playing - she could play the hell out of a piano. She was gifted, and her talent will remain as an undeniable one for the ages. Nominated for 44 Grammy awards, she won 18 of them over the course of her career.

R117, Whitney's material?? Until My Love is Your Love, it was completely disposable crap. Case-in-point: The Greatest Love of All. But she did have a great voice.

R53, I wouldn't say Whitney was more talented than Aretha. In terms of vocal range, sure. But not in terms of interpretive skills and overall music abilities. Aretha could write lyrics and music and as R128 says, she was a piano prodigy as well.

The only person I have heard who can match Aretha in intensity and emotion is the English singer Linda Thompson. No, not the Elvis girlfriend.

[quote] [R76], Aretha came out of the Church, yet got pregnant at age 12/13? No....

Perfectly fits the church, she came out of. Her father, C. L. Franklin, one of the most well known preachers of his time, black or white, raped a 12 year-old member of his congregation who gave birth to Aretha's older sister Carol.

I liked Aretha, and I find it hard to judge which singer is the BEST. When it comes to Gospel music, I prefer Mahaila Jackson, Clara Ward, and Vestal Goodman. But Aretha would be in the top five. In terms of secular music, across genres, again Aretha would be in the top 10, but I would also include Whitney, Patsy Cline, Celine Dion, among others, and I just can't bring myself to classify one as objectively better than the other.

Connie Francis

Nina and Sarah Vaughn, for sure. Maybe Ella and Billie.

[quote][[R76]], Aretha came out of the Church,

Pretty much all of the African American female singers ALL came out of the church. Jessye Norman to Diana Ross.

Yma Sumac.

^HAHAHA!!!! I thought of her because I LOVE the linked song by her!

Ross never sang in church. Maybe in a choir but never as a soloist and she never go any notice because of it.

You don't know that, R138. Her grandfather was a preacher.

[quote] she never go any notice because of it.

Oh, no?

[quote]she never go any notice because of it.

@R138

Los Angeles Times

Review: What happened when Diana Ross sang ‘Amazing Grace’ on opening night at the Hollywood Bowl

By MIKAEL WOODPOP MUSIC CRITIC JUNE 17, 2018

"...But the unexpected showstopper was Ross’ very moving performance of “Amazing Grace.”

Singing with a kind of mournful determination — and breaking from the song’s familiar melody to find surprising blue notes — she tapped into an earthly despair not often thought of in connection with this most polished of superstars.

What inspired her to go there is anyone’s guess..."

Now, go and wash your chitterlings, honey. Play something by R82 to make yourself feel better.

[quote] Pretty much all of the African American female singers ALL came out of the church. Jessye Norman to Diana Ross.

Not just African American female singers, but basically every American soul, r&b, and country singer, male or female, of the 20th century came out of the church.

Birgit Nilsson

I could be wrong but wasn't Mariah the first really big "A-list" vocalist to not come from the church?

Mariah went to church with some of her African American relatives more than once...she too was influenced by the Baptist Church.

NAME BETTER FEMALE SINGER THAN ARETHA FRANKLIN?

Any female singer who pays her taxes is better.

R145, Mariah was wayyyy more influenced by opera than the church since her mother was an opera singer. And it was her white mother who raised her, so I don't think she'd have that much exposure to the church.

[quote]Birgit Nilsson

The ONLY thing she's good at is spreading her legs. I didn't know she even sang.

r148, besides playing Red Sonja, she also played Elektra and Isolde.

[quote]Gladys Knight is so underrated here. DLers rarely talk about her which is absurd. She has always had a better voice than Aretha AND she can still outsing majority of "singers" today at her age.

Gladys has an amazing voice that has held up better than most of her contemporaries, but she doesn't have the wealth of good material that her peers have. Also, her solo career didn't pan out to much of anything. Dionne, Patti, Aretha, Diana can really stand on their own as solo artists . Gladys really is best remembered with the Pips.

Gladys is boring, both as a singer and as a personality. That's why the gays never adopted her as an iconic diva. Her voice is not particularly pretty and she has a limited vocal range.

Gladys is far from boring. Her voice is so smooth, rich, and soulful. It's a zillion times more pleasant than the screeching Patti and Aretha indulge in.

^Which is interesting because Aretha was able to "cross over" but Gladys... not, so much. I guess it truly comes down to management and how the artist is defined from the very beginning.

Gladys never acted like a diva. Aretha bought into her own press and acted like it.

Connie! Barbra! Ella!

Whitney " Goddess Amongst the Fallen" Houston

What are the rule s here? What is "good singing?" The premise of this thread is ridiculous.

R138, she might be singing NOW, but she didn't when she was a girl. In fact, that was a point of contention when people accused the Supremes of becoming "too white". Some critics said they should get back to church, to which Diana said they never sang in church so what good would that do?

Yoko Ono

Aretha is not bad.

[quote] I could be wrong but wasn't Mariah the first really big "A-list" vocalist to not come from the church?

Chaka Khan and Luther Vandross had strictly secular music backgrounds. Chaka has dabbled in gospel-ish music in last 10 years or so.

r161 I’m surprised about Luther Vandross. I always assumed his mother was extremely religious given his refusal to come out

^She was, R162. I have no idea of where R161 gets his/her information from. The Vandross family was very involved in the church and that would include Luther too.

[quote][R138], she might be singing NOW, but she didn't when she was a girl. In fact, that was a point of contention when people accused the Supremes of becoming "too white". Some critics said they should get back to church,

Only the critics from Earl's Juke Joint, R158. They said the same thing about Whitney Houston, Lena Horne, and Miss Diahann Carroll too--just to name a few. But, when it comes down to the bottom line... the Houston and Ross audience bases will pay $300 or more for a ticket without blinking an eye whereas those "critics" from Earl's Juke Joint will scream murder if they have to pay $50 for a seat from its normal price of $35.50. AND BABY.... don't charge that amount and make them feel that they did not get their money's worth--see below...before she flies away.

The Supremes were groomed to play the Carlyle and part of that "socially acceptable" behavior was made easier because of their personal rearing--particular Ross. These were "Catholic" and "Protestant" girls and NOT those COGIC/Pentecostal ninnies.

R163, great info--was Chaka also a product of the church? I find it hard to believe that a black singer in the 70s would NOT have been influenced by the church. Mariah really is the first major A-list black singer I can think of who wasn't influenced by the church.

MMPH....

[quote]was Chaka also a product of the church?

I don't think so. If I remember correctly, I think that her father was a musician. But, if not... her parents were like the hippies/flower children type of people.

Love Gladys Knight...disappointing that she became a Mormon...awful religion.

I would like to mention that one does not have to be in the choir or a soloist to be influenced by the music of the church. Congregational singing is a huge part of the experience in these churches.

And that's where Ross comes in. Her singing shows no sign of that influence. Nothing wrong with that but everyone assumes that just because you're black, that is the manner in which you sing.

Agree that Shirley Bassey had a great voice- not much can beat Gold Finder and Diamonds Are Forever. However a lot of her work makes camp seem subtle. I've got a best of Shirl CD and play it for friends every now and then and we always end up laughing out heads off. Probably was fun to see her in concert. I think she was trying to be a drag queen as time went on-

How about Vikki Carr- Let It Please Be Him... etc. Will also make you laugh a lot.

R170, a few years ago at the Oscars, Bassey destroyed Adele onstage. Adele was overpowered by the orchestra and you could barely hear her. Bassey was loud and her voice was clear. It's especially embarrassing considering she is more than twice of Adele's age.

[quote] [R170], a few years ago at the Oscars, Bassey destroyed Adele onstage. Adele was overpowered by the orchestra and you could barely hear her. Bassey was loud and her voice was clear. It's especially embarrassing considering she is more than twice of Adele's age.

Bassey's voice has been burying orchestras for over 60 years. It is superhuman.

Britney Spears

Madonna

Lady Ga Ga

Whenever this question gets asked, I always default to the three greats who just happened to come in different eras. Objectively and in order:

1. Ella Fitzgerald

2. Aretha Franklin

3. Whitney Houston

Every other singer before, during and after is down a tier and playing catch-up. Whitney is different though because she achieved mainstream superstardom, crossed over and became one of the world's biggest stars. That's why people have no qualms knocking her in attempts to sound cool. Like it or not, she snatched Dolly Parton's wig with her 'I Will Always Love You' and now when Dolly performs it in concert (which she didn't always use to), she always has to reference Whitney one way or the other.

It's sad but it happens. Originators of songs sometimes get overshadowed by better versions by better and greater singers. Sinatra did it to Paul Anka (My Way) and Liza Minelli (New York, New York), Aretha did it to the great Otis Redding (Respect) and Dionne Warwick (I Say A Little Prayer), and Whitney did it to George Benson (The Greatest Love of All) and Dolly ( I Will Always Love You). All these famous songs are now associated with the singers who remade them becoming their signature songs in all these cases. It's just fact. No amount of dismissiveness will change the fact that Whitney's version of IWALY is one of the biggest and most recognizable songs in the history of popular music and that it brought new attention and fans to Dolly's original. And I, for one, love it. I remember the first time I heard that acapella start on my transistor radio and I froze, thinking I had never heard such a vocal arrangement in pop music radio before. And I remember trying to buy late Christmas Presents of The Bodyguard CDs on Christmas eve of 1992 and it being literally sold out at every record store. That record was a phenomenon like we don't see these days.

R176, agree with almost everything you said, but I would say from 1990 through 1996, Mariah was even more vocally impressive than Whitney. Listening to "Vision of Love", the production sounds very dated but Mariah's power is very impressive, especially considering she was only 20 when it came out. And Emotions and Merry Christmas are even better.

I do have to say I'm kind of surprised Mariah didn't have to do a Marianne Faithfull-ish reinvention of her sound after her voice went to shit. She sounded good on Emancipation of Mimi, but not great. She is still considered one of the best singers ever, even though she only sounded amazing from those years I listed.

Whitney took the National Anthem (!!!) to the charts twice. And now it's now in the Smithsonian

The issue is, what metric are we using for "better singer?"

Technique? Tone? Range? Interpretation?

(PS none of those have to do with "material" as some poeple keep going on about.)

IMO, Whitey had the best combination of all of the above.

Mariah had more range, an probably similar in technique, but her natural tone while very very good was not near Whitney's almost insane level of resonance, fullness and just pleasant soundingness.

Karen Carpenter also had amazing tone, pure, clear, resonant. But not the range of amazing technique.

Faye Dunaway

Dinah Washington

The seventies were not kind to Aretha; she had a string of flop albums and even had a disco album. She also messed up her voice by smoking a pack a day.

R180 I couldn’t agree more. Whitney is the best vocalist in the last 40 years. No one has ever come close to her standards. Her discography sucks majorly however

r184 Shut up whore.

I saw a White woman on twitter claim Jennifer Hudson was a better singer than Whitney Houston. If anyone has deserved to be called a mindless screamer, it’s Jennifer Hudson. Some people don’t deserve to have opinions.

R186, the issue is that screaming and hitting high notes is what passes for "a great singer" nowadays. Hence, all the acclaim for Hudson and Grande as vocalists.

R187, Jennifer Holliday made her entire career as a screamer and it's also why she doesn't have a career today.

Whitney Houston knew nothing about interpreting lyrics.

She couldn't sing the Standards for the life of her.

Listen to how she trashes "I Loves You Porgy" and "Summertime". Then listen to these songs in the hands of a skilled singer.

She sings as if she learned the songs phonetically. Doesn't have a clue about phrasing. Lots of cheap caterwauling and vocal gymnastics. The meaning of the song is buried.

Tasteless.

Now listen to how Nina Simone tells the story.

Suddenly Ira Gershwins lyrics come through.

THIS is soul.

Harry Styles

Carmen McRae sings Summertime

Whitney Houston...Mariah Carey...Adele?? LOL.

Again, what's the metric? Interpretation is usually not it.

Jennifer Holliday was not a screamer. she had unbelievable power. her technique is insane too. Her voice is just too Gospel/black to be crossover.

[quote]Mariah had more range, an probably similar in technique, but her natural tone while very very good was not near Whitney's almost insane level of resonance, fullness and just pleasant soundingness. Karen Carpenter also had amazing tone, pure, clear, resonant. But not the range of amazing technique.

All very secondary in pop and in jazz. It ain't opera.

Listen to Nina Simone in the link above. Or Frank Sinatra. Or Carmen McRea, Billy Holliday, Sarah Vaughaun... vocal technique is not why they are among the truly great.

Judy Garland's greatness was her interpretive skills much more so than her wonderful voice .

Ahem.

I said A-HHHHHEMMMMMMM. (choking on quid)

[quote]Again, what's the metric? Interpretation is usually not it.

The great pop and jazz singers are about interpretation.

Vocal technique is fine if it's there but it has NEVER been the driving force in popular music.

Oh shut up you old queen. We get it, you don’t like Houston’s style. Stop spamming the thread with your bullshit.

R195 Miss Warwick is a great example. She made every word that Hal David wrote, every emotion come through. She understood the worldliness, the sophistication, the sarcasm, the longing, the loneliness of those lyrics.

She didn't make those songs about her ability to slide up and down the scales and hold notes to milk applause. Cheap shit that Whitney pulled.

Miss Warwick was fine through, oh, the first million or so Kool unfiltered cigarettes.....

Whoever the insane poster stuck in 1965 with a hate boner for Whitney’s style, don’t forget her cover of Sammy Davis Jr. I’d love to hear you rant about about all the reasons it’s subpar.

Holliday has no technique, no subtlety, no interpretation. And it's a pain to listen to her. She has a ton of failed recordings to prove it.

[quote]Holliday has no technique, no subtlety, no interpretation.

God God....you understand little. Yes, as the drugs wore on she became hard to listen to, but there's a reason aficionados of jazz and the Blues hold her in such high regard. There's a reason they made the film "Lady Sings the Blues".

You have to listen to Billie Holliday in the context of how women were singing before she hit the scene. She broke ground, was a pioneer in pop and jazz singing.

[quote]Holliday has no technique, no subtlety, no interpretation. And it's a pain to listen to her. She has a ton of failed recordings to prove it.

You're an asshole. She has 2 grammy's and a tony.

She is not subtle but if you think she has no technique you clearly know nothing about music.

[quote]The great pop and jazz singers are about interpretation.

according to YOU.

As record sales, Grammy's, Billboard charts, and millions and millions of fans have proven, Whitney's talent and voice put her in a category beyond all the jazz "stylists".

So just as R197, shut up you old queen. Go listen to some Judy records.

R202, you are a fucking idiot. The reference was to JENNIFER Holliday, NOT Billie.

As for Jennifer, she has not had a single hit or award since the 80s. Her only charting song was I am Love and I'm Telling you and that was in 82.

[quote]As for Jennifer, she has not had a single hit or award since the 80s. Her only charting song was I am Love and I'm Telling you and that was in 82.

She won 2 Grammys and a tony all in her 20s. Fuck you.

She had a lot of personal problems and was never a crossover talent, but an RnB and broadway singer.

She actually had other chartring songs to asshole, including a dance/club hit called "No Frills Love' so stop talking about shit you dont' know.

Jennifer Holliday fans are the equal to Follies fans in that they are crack addicts in search of that first high when they originally saw the show and are equally delusional.

[quote]As record sales, Grammy's, Billboard charts, and millions and millions of fans have proven...

If that's the standard of proof then Madonna would be considered the greatest singer of all.

What elderly music snobs refuse to accept is that taste that vary from their own are just as legitimate and popular singing styles evolve. Nina, Ella, and the others are fantastic but music isn’t defined by the sounds of the first half of the 20th century. Move on.

What is the average age on this site?

No Frills Love was in 96 and didn't chart on the regular charts. Being on the R&B charts alone is sitting at the back of the bus.

[quote]No Frills Love was in 96 and didn't chart on the regular charts. Being on the R&B charts alone is sitting at the back of the bus.

it was on the club charts and in gay clubs. and no one is talking about charting TODAY asshole...... you're now backpedalling You said she had one hit from Dreamgirls. clearly you are wrong.

shut the fuck up

[quote]What elderly music snobs refuse to accept is that taste that vary from their own are just as legitimate and popular singing styles evolve. Nina, Ella, and the others are fantastic but music isn’t defined by the sounds of the first half of the 20th century. Move on. What is the average age on this site?

Age? This thread is about a women who made a name for herself and had her biggest hits well over half a century ago.

R1 wins. Sorry OP.

R211, there is no backpedaling, Holliday had the world at her feet after DG and couldn't do anything about it because she can't sing. And your reading comprehension is also off. I said she had two hits, I Am Love and I Am Telling you. Nothing else was a hit. That's a fact. And 98 shows how ancient you are. Go back to using your dildo to I Am Telling You so you can recreate Holliday's bizarre facial grimaces.

Whitney was the master

[quote] Holliday had the world at her feet after DG and couldn't do anything about it because she can't sing

R214 you have now shown yourself to be a moron and possibly tone deaf

1. You may not care for her gospel style, her sound, or her over the top theatrics. But if you say “she can’t sing” you have now lost all credibility, as anyone with even a hint of musical knowledge (or hearing ability) can see.

2. No Frills Love was actually in the 80s, not “98,” so even in your pathetic attempts at insults you can’t get it right.

Done (I don’t interact with fools).

[quote]Holliday had the world at her feet after DG

No, she didn't. She gave a great performance in DG. But, from a business standpoint, she was like that demon possessed woman in R165. Holliday couldn't get work. Why do you think she lost weight and was told to tone it down?

And, speaking of the possessed woman at R163, (who has had at most 4 hits for her entire 50 plus career), one of her hits were "If You Asked Me" where the producer of the song had to demand the crazed woman SHUT UP and TONE IT DOWN! Well, this ticked off the afflicted, (R82), to no end! But, she did as she was told and what she was being paid to do. The song became a hit and the crazed woman, (R80), loved all of the adulation she was receiving until.... a SINGER and civilized person, Miss Celine Dion, came along to redo the song and made it an even bigger and international hit! This bothered the other gal, (R81), so much that she no longer speaks well of the song and I don't believe that it is part of her repertoire anymore when she does whatever she does.

It was this type of issue that ended her friendship with Miss Dionne Warwick. Miss Dionne told her to calm it down and that criticism turned her up! They haven't been very close friends since that incident.

Why did you have to point out race, R186?

Ageist, R209.

Ageist, R209.

Somewhere along the line, someone confused Billie Holliday with Jennifer Holliday. Wut-wut?

^ Billie sends her regards and asks that you spell it Holiday

Connie Francis puts them all to shame in terms of sheer innate talent and power.

Whitney is without equal.

R223 No one is interested in Connie Francis.

Sorry R224- pipes but lacking in artistry. Mechanical and way too much embellishment At least this genre of song.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R224 Whitney could not sing the standards. Horrible phrasing. She doesn't have a clue.

Her audience is attracted to vocal bling. Just awful.

....

Singing the standards it is not the definition of what makes a great singer.

See post above about a metrics such as tone, resonance, range, and technique

'What is the average age on this site?'

70

Billie Holiday, for jazz vocalists, is the first among them all, because of her creating the methods used by most of them, her simplicity and directness, her maximizing the capabilities of a limited but potent instrument, and her phrasing (her technique, pauses, emphases, acting ability, ability to convey authenticity.),

Aretha didn't care about authenticity. She was woman using a powerful gospel-formed instrument singing of strength while intelligently showing her lack of it as a young vocalist and mostly grandstanding with with and control as a mature vocalist. Her personality got in the way, as it does for most great singers, but fans celebrate what others cringe at.

"Better singer" is an ambiguous construct (assuming that no one here is talking about operatic or other classically trained voices). Better how? No one ever had a better voice than Sarah Vaughan, and she knew how she wanted to use it, but even she sometimes went deep into the purple and self-absorbed. Additional to the qualities noted by R230 and others, taste is paramount. That's what always has made little talents into great performers in popular genres. Billie Holiday and neither range nor endurance. So? Using one's skills to precisely deliver what is intended, and intending what is apt for the song and situation, is what matters most.. Musical intelligence. It's what separates rote from a good or great performance. And it's no excuse to say that audiences want crap. Artists always have had to help audiences want and expect more.

With the lack of knowledge among audiences, expectations are low by being aimed at what they're accustomed to. Technology, light-shows, enhancement and bios take the place of performance, both for performers and listeners. The irritating and meaningless glissando, stunt-singing and post-retro-faux-snark-show-off grandeur of everyone from Whitney to Mariah to that Canadian woman to the pop princesses of Ariana, Rihanna (bless her) or whoever else people toss out as "today's" favorites is shallow and often aimed at mere over-the-top knock-'em-dead noise.

Yeah, a hyphen queen and a long talker. So don't read it.

Apparently many are interested in Connie!

R229 Funny video and so true.

I prefer Dusty Springfield to Aretha. Where they've recorded the same song, so can be directly compared, such as Son of a Preacher Man or I Can't Wait Until I See My Baby's Face, Dusty's version is superior. She is more accurate in her intonation and has a more beautiful timbre or tone in her voice. Compare this:

With Aretha's version, honestly which is better?

Dusty is white, white....WHIIIIIIIIIITE. That’s why you dislike Aretha. Dusty wasn’t worthy of changing Aretha’s maxi pads.

And, genuinely, which of these live versions of A House is not a Home do you prefer? Aretha's...

Or Dusty's? Because imo Dusty sounds a million times better, every note perfect and gorgeously beautiful.

R237 Clear your head of black/white labels and just listen. Dusty sings it better.

Someone, who doesn’t get enough love on here, or elsewhere, is Brenda Lee. She was a powerful singer who could also interpret songs, much better than DL fav Connie Francis.

OH! She sang this song!

Or Don't Let Me Lose This Dream.

Aretha's version:

Vs. Dusty

I find this version more polished, less rough, just better vocals.

R151. That is so untrue. Gladys Knight is a goddess in the firmament - listen to this you fuckpig

^ “Gladys Knight is a goddess in the firmament.” She DAID?!

FUCK YOU, R237, you fucking racist bitch.

R246 Gods and goddesses don't die - they are immortal

R238 vs. R239

Dusty respects what Hal David and Burt Bacharach actually wrote. She plays the part of the woman who has found herself alone after a breakup. It is true artistry. Note her phrasing: how she sings in complete sentences. It's not so much about "perfect notes", it's more about having a true understanding of what the song is about.

Aretha screeches and wails and you have no idea of what the hell she's singing about. It's self indulgent. But that's the kind of stuff that works up her audience.

Aretha did great work, there's no denying that and she deserves her place among the greatest, but she could be awful as well.

R243 Vs R244

R244 I disagree with you here. Both versions are fine. Dusty's is smooth, cool and sophisticated. Aretha's is fun and soulful. They both do the song justice.

aretha, you're all I need to get by

R251 Gorgeous production. Class. Whitney never did anything approaching that level of quality.

Whitney goes back to her roots. Aretha's influence is clear.

What are you talking about, r252?

241 Brenda could not sing standards like Connie, and she did not have the concert career that Connie had. Connie had a very powerful voice and a very subtle voice. She was versatile.

There is only ONE, hussies!

Etta James

Dionne had numerous sessions of plastic surgery...she was jacked up in her youth...only in the seventies was she attractive.

[quote]Dionne had numerous sessions of plastic surgery..

Black people don't have plastic surgery. If so, it is a relatively very new thing.

Yeah sure R259

LOL! There are few exceptions. Very few...

Every race have the cocoa for cocoa puffs loons...

R259 anyone has plastic surgery if they can afford it and they want it.

r259 there are surgeons who specialize in rhinoplasty for black people, so obviously they do.

petula clark.

R249 Yes, Dusty puts herself in the service of the song, doesn’t overusing or showboat, she creates art. But on a more basic level, she just sounds a ton better than Aretha.

Shirley at 82.

[quote]Black people don't have plastic surgery.

Diahann Carroll talked about having plastic surgery on talk shows.

R267 If you have seen the recent live Good Times, it is clear the original Willona, Ja'Net DuBois, has had some plastic surgery, and sadly it wasn't great.

Oh, I agree, R248. I was just joking with R245’s comment about Gladys being a “goddess in the firmament” (which I took to mean heaven) Since the lovely Gladys Knight is still very much alive.

dusty springfield

Shirley bassey can still belt it out !!!! awesome !!!!

Janet Jackson! She is a singer’s singer! After her it’s a toss up Between Rebbie Jackson (centipede is amazing!!!) and Stacey q.

r272 don't forget Hilary Duff, Jennifer Lopez and Cassie!

A professional voice coach reacts to Whitney. Masterful.

R231, and IQ as well...

The great thing about Barbra, Celine, Patti, Tina, Gaga, Gladys, Chaka, Whitney, Dolly, Dusty, Billie, Nina, and Linda is that they each have beautiful nuanced strong voices. They also didn't take advantage of the system and the paid their taxes.

Aretha may be talented, but we helped cover her expenses and taxes.

[95] Ella wasn't cold, 'Someone to watch over me' and her rendition of 'For once in my life' reflect the sense of loneliness and longing she felt so well

[R95] ^^

Who’s the moron who called Ella Fitzgerald soulless and robotic? Whaaat? I almost stopped liking Sinatra when he said that Ella and Sarah Vaughn poor technical singers...whatever....