Why does DL seem to be really opposed to transgender?

Or... Do you think it's some way of discrimination against gays by people who can't accept being gay and want to transition to align with a M/F relationship model and that's why you are angry because you really want them to accept themselves?

It’s not just you. There’s a lot of overt anti-transgender sentiment here.

Gay power forever!

It's because they're mentally and want everyone else to participate in it.

Ha - mentally ill, that is.

Because trans is a farce. You don't change your gender.

This movement is trying to erase homosexuality. Same sex attraction is slowly morphing into same gender attraction. Why are you shocked that many on this board refuse to embrace this homophobic ideology?

They are mental cases who internalize their own homophobia.

it's because this site is riddled with TERFs

Muriel - please red tag this troll. We all know the Russians want to divide the LBGTQ community and divert the subject from the treasonous President Trump. You've been blocked, OP.

We aren't opposed to transgender in general. Live your life.

We ARE:

Opposed to trans people taking over gay organizations, and promoting trans interests over those of LGB people, particularly lesbian people.

And we are sure as shit opposed to the medical transition of gender non-conforming children, most of whom will grow up to be perfectly happy gays and lesbians if left along and not given hormones or puberty blockers.

"particularly lesbian people" ^ see OP? TERFs

With a few exceptions, most people here don't seem mind trans people doing their thing as long as they let others live your life in peace. When our own activist organizations expect us to participate in a collective delusion in order to appease extremist activists, however, people will get cranky and there will be a backlash.

Some highlights why trans activism has become absolutely bonkers lately:

* Absolute denial of biological reality for the sake of ideology, including ignoring the fact that trans women have a physical advantage in competitive sports and are diminishing the achievements of female athletes for the sake of self-validation.

* Transing children by lobbying for a widespread use of puberty blockers, thus robbing them of their chance to develop their own identity during puberty (including possibly turning out just gay or lesbian).

* Having no coherent concept of what this "gender" is that they are feeling (is it somehow biologically anchored? No, that would be transmedicalist and thus "transphobic"... Is body dysmorphia necessary? No, that would invalidate non-binary people and be "transphobic"), while expecting that self-ID becomes enshrined in law, despite its wide-reaching consequences on sex-based policy.

* Pronoun madness and the policing of language by people who make not even an effort to pass at all.

* Denouncing every diverging opinion as "transphobic" (this term has lost all meaning by now).

* Invading female spaces (e.g., women's shelters) for the sake of self-validation.

* Rewriting LGB history by claiming that trans women of color were responsible for all progress when this is blatantly factually untrue.

* The constant oppression poker of intersectionality, that is, using the concept of privilege (describing systemic, societal asymetries of power) for silencing "more privileged" subgroups of the in-group.

etc.

R12, I dare you to defend the medical transition of children, who don't understand the biological realities of physical sex, or the limitations of the process, and who are more likely to be proto-gays than genuine transexuals anyway.

R14 I kinda agree with that point, but it doesnt matter cause that's far from the only reason people hate on trans folks around here

There was an earlier thread on DL that provided a link to a Reddit thread that showed photos of all those carved up franken-holes that were supposed to be trans vaginas. It pretty much cemented for me that this was a form of mental illness.

Trannies can’t accept the facts. You are what you are. Put a dress on if it floats your boat, but OWN IT. It’s the fact trannies can’t accept who they are. Embrace it.

[quote] carved up franken-holes that were supposed to be trans vaginas

I thought they were supposedly so realistic that gynos even have a hard time distinguishing one?

Gay men are attracted to men. As such, many gay men prize masculinity. Without clearly defined distinctions between the sexes (there are only two) and without defined gender roles, the concept of masculinity becomes meaningless.

Furthermore, much of the trans movement and gender activism in general comes across as an attack on masculinity. Why would I support something that attacks and diminishes the thing I find most attractive?

OP, a big chunk of gay men on this site are actually old ladies trapped in a man's body. They shriek if you use the word "queer" but they're just as intolerant of anyone not like them as many straight people are.

They can't imagine anything that isn't them sucking a man's cock, and think straight men can be had for a beer or two. They believe bisexual people and trans people simply cannot and do not exist.

R13 very nicely worded. Thank you for not getting all emotional, defensive and ugly. It's so nice to hear the facts of feelings without all that.

I can say now I see. I wish this could be bridged to work out.

All of what R13 said. That’s the gist of it. Especially the part about transing kids. Transitioning shouldn’t occur before age 18.

R18 makes sense! I hadn't thought about it like that!

Plus obviously they don't want to lose a potential lover to the dark side! Of course?

Honestly though people really make fun of people like Caitlyn Jenner and honestly I get a vibe like they could kill themselves someday. I don't want that to happen to anyone.

Gay men have a very complicated relationship with trans women. For many gay men the public's image of gay men as effeminate queers who flit around in makeup, high heels and mama's dresses is a stereotype they've fought their lives dispelling. The whole concept of "drag" as entertainment is gay men's satirical commentary on this broad and ridiculous stereotype. Now we have a T movement that attaches itself to a long fought battle for L & G equality but in reality is in direct conflict to a decades long education campaign that gay men are men and not women in dresses. Trans deserve respect - and their own movement to advance their unique agenda for equality. Our coattails aren't long enough or strong enough for them.

Homophobia & misogyny, pure & simple, if you're a "sissy or a "tomboy", you need hormones & surgery! If you're a man in a dress, your feelings are more important than the privacy & safety of the women & girls who have to share restrooms, changing rooms etc. with you.

If I grow a ponytail and put on bad makeup I'm a real woman in every sense. Coddle me. Bow to my will. I am a real woman.

Because most are just mental and needy. "Look at me I'm different! I'm not Trans but I got your attention!" I have known a few from decades ago who were for real but these days more nutty than not. Social media has the youngsters doing any and everything for attention. Even faking true mental illness.

I'd really like a transperson to address R13's points. I'm really impressed how succinctly he went down it point by point.

Trans people gross me out. There, I said it.

R13 hit the nail on the head. I have respect and sympathy for trans people, but it isn't remotely connected to sexuality, and therefore, I don't believe the issue should be injected into gay/lesbian issues. It's a completely different conversation. This is probably an unpopular opinion on DL, but, because the gay community is also one of outliers who have historically been ostracized, I do think it's important (or at least morally right) to be allies to trans people—but that doesn't mean collating them into one grouping, which does damage to both IMO.

Transgenders are literally crashing our party. Yes, it's an elder thing, but it would be nice to go back to "gay & lesbian" and drop the alphabet soup.

Typical trans "lesbian"...

I’m increasingly shocked at the mean and bitter attitudes on Datalounge. My only guess is that most people either went through some awful trauma or have some sort of personality disorder.

R34 You are wrong. R13 is correct in all he wrote.

Because most of them are: Homophobes, Misogynistic, Anti-science/biology and mentally ill.

[quote]I’m increasingly shocked at the mean and bitter attitudes on Datalounge.

We're men or lesbians. What did you expect?

R34, respect is a two-way street, and I don't see trans activists being very considerate of the LGB either. Quite the contrary, actually, considering how the whole LGB Alliance thing has been received.

R35 how do you know it was a he that wrote that?

It doesn't matter R39, and I suspect you are just trolling. If the post was written by a woman the points all remain valid.

R40 I am trying to make a point that it doesn't matter what someone is?

Unfortunately, conversations that can and should be had respectfully about some of the points r13 has listed are all but impossible, thanks to bad actors on both sides of the divide. From what I've seen, most people who raise concerns about the transing of children, the effect of self-ID on single-sex spaces and services, and the freedom for gay men and lesbians to identify as same-sex attracted, bear no real animus towards transgender people. There is a cohort of transactivists out there, however, who regard any diversion from total affirmation as hateful transphobia.

“I have respect and sympathy for trans people, but it isn't remotely connected to sexuality, and therefore, I don't believe the issue should be injected into gay/lesbian issues.“

R31 (and others) Do you really regard being gay as strictly about sex acts? I am a gay man and I don’t—at all. I rarely have sex these days and I am fine with it, but I always have been and always will be gay. It was evident to my family from toddlerhood and after we discussed my sexual identity when I was comfortable with it (age 18), they told me so. They knew I was gay because of gay mannerisms, my manner of speaking, my interests. I was just a little flamer from early childhood. A few years ago, I saw home videos of myself around age five a few years ago and I was so fucking gay (and odd—I did some sort of interpretive dance and was quite impressed with myself!).

Around age 11, my friends and other kids turned on me and “accused” me of being gay and I said I wasn’t—because I wasn’t sexual at all yet. When I started having those feelings, it was a mix of “oh no!” and “ohhhh...that’s why they all think I’m gay. I am gay.”

In my experience, there is an essential quality to both gay men and gay women that may be associated with effeminate and masculine traits but which are not the same as the ways those present in straight men and women.

I don’t understand how transgender people feel about their bodies, but I do believe that the essence of being gay is more “identity” than “who I fuck,” and because that’s my experience, I don’t have any difficulty accepting that transgenderism is about identity—something other than straight or gay. And I have a feeling that if we accept this about everyone, we’ll all get along just fine.

[quote]Why does DL seem to be really opposed to transgender?

It isn't. It's just a very small, but oh so very obsessed group of ignorant bigots. This thread is a classic example. The vast majority of DL stays far away from these loons, other than to occasionally F&F them when they get too carried away with their antics.

They've been trying, and failing, for over four years here. And they'll still be trying, and failing, for the next four years. Ignore them or F&F them; it really doesn't matter. They are their own worst enemies with their ridiculous drama queen antics and rhetoric. It's simply not worth it to even try to have a conversation with them.

I wouldn't have a problem with them if they weren't hurting others, but they are, and I'm increasingly convinced that the nice ones who just want to be left alone are an incredibly tiny minority of that community, which is why almost none of them speak out against the madness.

Others here have already detailed most of what's wrong with the T (such as castrating children and harassing lesbians and gay men for "transphobia" because neither want Ts as sexual partners), but I'll add one more:

Forcing all of us to lie to them and to adopt their worldview which has no bearing on reality violates our basic human rights to freedom of thought and freedom of speech. When the T stops harassing people and even calling the cops on people (in the UK) for speaking reality to their faces, then I'll give them a pass. That will never happen, however, because their delusional fantasies of being the opposite sex requires the participation of literally every other human being. This is why most Ts behave like authoritarians.

R13 is a good writer. Zhe has it covered. Me? I could be wrong, but I do think a relatively small number of extremist activists are fucking it up for a lot of people.

[quote]Do you really regard being gay as strictly about sex acts? I am a gay man and I don’t—at all. I rarely have sex these days and I am fine with it, but I always have been and always will be gay. It was evident to my family from toddlerhood and after we discussed my sexual identity when I was comfortable with it (age 18), they told me so. They knew I was gay because of gay mannerisms, my manner of speaking, my interests. I was just a little flamer from early childhood. A few years ago, I saw home videos of myself around age five a few years ago and I was so fucking gay (and odd—I did some sort of interpretive dance and was quite impressed with myself!).

R43 sexuality ≠ "sex acts" only. I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote. "Sexuality" denotes your capacity for sexual feelings, and what you find arousing and are romantically oriented toward. I am on the same page as you—it goes without saying that you can be chaste your entire life and still be 100% homosexual. Being gay is really about your internal, intimate feelings toward other people. The sex itself is just an expression (or projection) of it.

I also had feminine mannerisms as a kid and still do to some degree, but that is ostensibly linked to genetic/hormonal variables that also most likely account for your sexual orientation. All of these things are interconnected.

This gay cis man is all for trans rights. Racial minorities should (and haven't always, but increasingly do) support gay rights and likewise we should support trans rights. Really, we should all just be against bigotry in general.

But to answer the question, as previously mentioned, it's probably just gays who are insecure in themselves that find it uncomfortable and externalize it. Gotta find someone to feel superior to!

Lesbian erasure.

Also most transwomen have autogynephilia and want to be included in lesbian spaces because it arouses them. It forces lesbians to be unwilling participants in a straight man's sexual fetish.

If you decide you are female, there is no need to don the accouterments if you truly believe you are. Most women I know don't wear dresses, heels or even makeup on a daily basis. Putting on a dress doesn't make you a woman just like me wearing jeans doesn't make me a man.

My 3-year-old niece dressed for Halloween as a cat. She insisted that she was a REAL CAT, not a girl wearing a costume. Is she now a real cat?

"This movement is trying to erase homosexuality. Same sex attraction is slowly morphing into same gender attraction"

No. It's just people who always thought they were "gay" were/are actually transgender.

Example: bull dykes looking for a lipstick lesbian to be their "girl". Wearing men's clothes; gaining 100 lbs.; mullets.

"Gay" doesn't mean you want to be the opposite sex. But transgender does.

[quote]Is it just me or does it seem like there's a lot of visceral emotions that apparent gay people have for transpeople?

Your approach tells me you are not a gay man, and too ignorant to have put attention to what has been happening to the gay community in the last 10 years. In the last ten years the Trans movement has rewritten gay history, convinced people to reject the word "gay," and damaged gay acceptance in this country.

R39, I'm a masculine gay male man, so they were right. ;)

R48, What rights though? One of the aspects why I cannot take trans activists seriously anymore is the constant shifting of goal posts and the conflation of different "categories" of rights. People like this idiot Rachel McKinnon always immediately react with "You are denying my existence!" or "Sport is a human right!". I think this is done to muddle the water intentionally.

Without going too far into it, let's assume that we take for granted that there are human rights (because we, as societies, have decided that humans have something like inherent human rights); let's assume that these human rights are defined by the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Look these up. In the Western world, trans people already enjoy all these rights. I have heard no one in this debate arguing that trans people should not have basic human rights; neither have I heard anyone deny the existence of trans people - we know they exist! So, the rights that trans people are fighting for are, in fact, mostly subordinate rights.

I'll let a post (by "Cautious Until Tenured") from a comments section on "Daily Nous" explain what that means much better than I could (in the next post):

Quote part 1:

It seems that there are three distinct categories of rights that are often conflated under the general heading of “trans rights” that are worth distinguishing conceptually.

FIRST: Human rights possessed by all people. Everyone has a right to be secure in their lives and their bodies, not to be assaulted or killed. Trans people have these rights because all people have these rights. Unfortunately, there are some trans individuals who are attacked or killed because they are trans. Part of protecting trans rights means protecting the human rights of trans people. I think EVERYONE in this debate can agree that this is a good and important thing to do.

SECOND: Rights that are NOT equally possessed by all people, but are specifically designated to women qua women. This includes, for instance, Title IX policies guaranteeing equal funding to women’s and men’s sports teams, or affirmative action policies dedicated to the advancement of women in institutions traditionally dominated by men, or the right to be considered as a potential sexual partner by straight men and lesbians. The question that arises here is whether trans women are also accorded these rights on the basis of the fact that they ARE WOMEN, and so are equally entitled to these rights. It seems that a blanket assessment of how these controversies are to be resolved would be inappropriate. Some of these rights clearly have a biological basis, are justified by that biological basis, and thus (apparently) lack a rational ground for extension outside of the biological basis of justification. Other of these rights clearly have a social equalizing basis meant to protect women from the disparate treatment of society based on their gender presentation. Trans women seem to have just as much right to these protections as natal women. Sometimes these cases are difficult; bathrooms seem to be one such, because the justification for separate bathrooms seems to be both partly biological and partly social.

THIRD: Rights accorded to trans individuals qua trans individuals. Whether any such rights exist is controversial, but some rights that have been claimed in this area are: the right to access hormones and surgery (including, where applicable, provision by the state of these medical resources), the right to be referred to using their preferred pronouns, and, more generally, the right to be identified as the gender with which they identify: “trans women are women.”

Quote part 2:

There is an interesting tension between the second and the third category of trans rights. If trans individuals have the trans right to be identified as the gender with which they identify, then they are (seemingly) ipso facto entitled to all of the rights in the second category, which are accorded to women qua women. This includes rights accorded to women qua women where the justification behind those rights is clearly exclusively or predominantly biological. So we end up with a one-philosophers-modus-ponens-is-anothers-modus-tollens situation. Those on the GC side who take women’s rights that have a biological basis very seriously construe this as a reductio of the trans right of self-idenfication. Conversely, those on the trans-inclusive side take the right of self-id seriously and construe this as a reductio of biologically-based women’s rights.

There is an annoying interaction between the third and first category of trans rights. Those who deny the existence of any or all rights in the third category are labeled as bigoted, hateful, transphobic, etc., and it is sometimes suggested that anyone who denies the existence of the third category of rights denies trans people the first category of rights. Part of my reason in writing this is to remind everyone that these categories of rights really are distinct, everyone in the profession agrees that trans individuals have all the rights in the first category, and everyone can feel a little safer and happier if they keep that in mind.

And there is a distressing conflict between the third category of rights, particularly the right to self-identification, and philosophical norms of inquiry. If individuals have a right to be thought of in a certain way or talked about in certain ways, then it wrongs them deeply to not think of them or talk about them in those ways. But this would constitute a moral constraint on thought and discourse, which is inconsistent with the philosophical norm of following the argument wherever it may lead. I do not see a way to resolve this tension with a compromise. That’s why this debate is so vitriolic.

I’m not a fan of Caitlyn Jenner because of her politics, but I do think Jenner demonstrates the reality of transgenderism in a way that a person really has to get creative about to deny.

Bruce Jenner was a celebrated Olympics gold medalist—in all respects he was an “alpha male” as far as anyone was concerned. He married and fathered children. And all the while, he would secretly dress in women’s clothes and wanted to pass as a woman. People seem to believe that because Jenner is part of the Kardashian family, she transitioned for attention, but I remember very clearly when she was going through the process and Perez Hilton was harassing her about it, “accusing” Bruce Jenner of being trans with a lot of cruel jokes about his appearance. Ultimately, Jenner did an interview to announce it and stop the rumors and I thought that the story of her trying not to be who she felt she was was moving and upsetting.

I don’t have any problem with her or with anyone else being who they are. As a gay man, I couldn’t possibly condemn anyone for that because that is no different than one of my dad’s Baptist relatives in NC saying they love people like me but we really just need to settle down the right girl and stop with the gay nonsense. No. That’s not who I am. They can’t understand that. I can’t understand wanting a woman’s body, but I can understand needing to be who my spirit expresses itself to be in this body. It is wrong to force anyone to be who they are not, full stop.

I also met a transgender woman through work who most certainly was not mentally ill—but she was troubled all her life. As a man, she married a woman and became a father, privately dressing as a woman, and she tried to kill herself because all her life choices, her “lifestyle,” were hypocritical to who she was. She felt she was acting her whole life. Her kids are adults now and she confessed the truth to her wife. They went to counseling and the wife ultimately agreed that she had to transition to save her sanity, not because she was insane. She didn’t have a lot of money and she wore frumpy clothes and cheap wigs and looked quite un-ladylike having matured to manhood in her 60s. But she said she just was more comfortable and felt like she was finally being honest in her life and happier than ever. She *did* though confess something that has never occurred to me: the sex hormones that transitioning people take effectively throw them into adolescence/puberty. She said “imagine being a 65 year old with all the challenges that come with aging AND going through puberty at the same time.” She said she finds herself having emotional outbursts and feeling overwhelmed like she did as a teenager just because of the hormones. That made me a little more sympathetic to some of the histrionics that I have seen among some transgender activists.

R56, Nobody is saying that you cannot be compassionate with regard to trans people. I am sympathetic to their personal plight, as a lot of them seem miserable, whether pre- or post-transition. And I think that there is a silent majority of trans people with common sense that are simply drowned out by shrill activists (see Blair White or Rose of Dawn as examples).

However, this is about politics, not about emotions. They have to get their house in order, must present coherent demands, and be willing to discuss these rationally both in the in-group (i.e., larger LGBT community) or the out-group (i.e., the majority of people), if they want the public to accept their political point of view. Especially, if their demands infringe upon or take away from the rights and privileges of other oppressed groups! (LGB never took anything away from straight people by decriminalization, lowering the age of consent, having work-place protections, or marrying!)

What they are currently doing, however, is hijacking the activist infrastructure that was established by LGB activists, bully these established LGB activists out of their own organizations, and then bully everyone else to give way to their contradicting, irrational demands. I simply refuse to be complicit in this madness.

“Nobody is saying that you cannot be compassionate with regard to trans people.”

R56 Many people here are displaying and do display (especially in other threads—this one is thoughtful and civil on DL terms) on DL an extraordinary compassionlessness.

Some of the arguments articulated above are reasonable and can be reasonably debated. But more prevalent here among gay people is Trump-style name calling and dehumanizing language that I cannot abide as a decent human being. Seriously. It’s over the line and hypocritical and revealing that we who condemn Donald Trump for using childish slurs and Nazi-ish dehumanization rhetoric are capable of doing it to another “other.”

Above you’ll find a lot of people calling all transgender people mentally ill because of how they express their identities. When I was growing up, we had an old medical textbook in the house that described homosexuality as a diagnosable mental illness that must be corrected. We know it’s not. Yet people here adopt that same mentality and apply it to others on the grounds that those others behave in ways we don’t understand. Gay people behave in ways straight people don’t understand, and that is why they determined us to be flawed, lesser human beings. Nazis killed us for it.

We cannot do this without being exactly the same as Steven Miller. Resist that idea, but it is true and a fair assessment. When we become the people who hate and humiliate and torture us, we’re evil.

People above and elsewhere on this site discuss transgender people on less-than-human terms, as if they are mentally deranged animals not worthy of empathy or respect or the rights to do what they are inclined to do with their own lives. I admit that I have been overwhelmed by transgender activism myself; yet, when I read comments like those above I fully understand the anger and defensiveness and the will to fight people. When you perceive that everyone perceives your very nature as innately wrong, you develop rage and turn it either inward or outward. As a young gay man I turned it inward and it almost killed me. It killed a part of me, left me seriously scarred and I will always be reactive as a result. Then our culture changed and people decided to behave decently to us.

There was a time in this country when women were property of men and forced to do what men made them do.

There was a time when black people were property and any black person who demanded to live with dignity was “uppity” and may have been hung to death for it.

And then there were gay people who in many places in the US are on a neatly equal level. And we resent and are confused, for example, that some of the black US culture still views being gay as a personal (wrong) choice and effectively as a kind of sickness. Because we know that’s wrong because we know we are who we are. We are right to question how any oppressed group could possibly be so unempathetic and so condemning and backward in their thinking. Even as we do the same to the latest population to have had enough dehumanization. Just for the sake of gay people’s own dignity and out of respect for our recent history we should exercise patience and just be better people.

If we can’t be accepting, then we can at least be tolerant, just as we expected our backward grandparents to be when those wild and crazy gays who, from their vantage point, did all those gross things in private and were demonstrating naked at parades and screaming “it’s OK to be gay.” They didn’t get it. It was too strange to them. We accepted that, but we got to the point of not accepting being treated as lesser human beings. How can we do to others what people did to us?

We don’t really have much in common. Many trans people seem to reinforce the gender roles we generally don’t believe apply and some seem to do it for attention. Some trans people don’t even seem to stand ip for gay causes or women’s issues - they just use the gay community for support but are not really allies. And I think there is some mental problem if you need to remove parts of your body to feel normal.

R58, I agree actually!

If we expect civility and rational discourse from trans activists, we should expect the same from our side. It is not my intention to demean trans people, even if I vehemently disagree with their politics and ideology. I also try to use pronouns as correctly as possible, even if people have bad passing; I will not use neologistic pronouns however.

R56 this is something I wonder and I swear I am not trying to troll or be offense so please forgive any ignorance. I'm just trying to understand.

But I wonder why so many trans people have mental illness. Is it chicken egg, which came first? Living in an unaccepting world where they are mocked day in and out creating the mental illness or is it some sickness in our society pigeon holing people into gender stereotypes? So maybe Bruce had some tender, feminine parts to him, or gay parts but he never acknowledged that or had to hide it or something and then the way he could be "straight" and not a sinner bound for hell would be for his mind to manfacture a story that he was supposed to be a woman and everything would be fine as a woman.

Is it something like that? Or is it just as simple as feeling better as a woman. Like playing VR or video game as a woman character is more comfortable and feels right?

Because I wonder about these weird alpha male expectations we put on people and weird norms on women too. Maybe we just think about all of this way too much and these categories and various expectations drive people to insanity when they don't know where they belong and can't feel free to just be who they are.

I don't need anyone to be anything other than what they are.

R61 In general terms, this just does not seem complicated to me. In the past and still in the present for some men, living “on the down low” is their only perceived option of living their lives. They conform to what they believe is “normal” by inauthentically pretending to be straight, and yet their gay essence is obvious and their same-sex attraction is undeniable and expresses itself privately. See: Marcus Bachmann, Ted Haggard, Jim McGreevey, Rock Hudson, countless other men and women.

Living this way of course causes emotional conflict and sometimes identity disorders. Of course it does. I have never been closeted, and yet I have been in therapy for 10 years to manage my emotional well being. I was in crisis when I first found my psychiatrist. During adolescence, when I was absolutely tormented by my peers without a single ally in school, I developed a default “escape hatch” way of thinking: if things get truly unbearable, I will just kill myself. The end. I have struggled with depression and social anxiety all my life because of the effect cruel people had on me. They were kids. They presumably grew out of it. But I live with scars because of it.

This applies to almost all gay people I know over age 35.

How any of those people can vilify anyone—transgender people, anyone at all—for living honestly according to their natures confounds me. It makes me sad. It tells me that this is human nature: predator or target. When we are the target of the gang violence and hatred, we either kill ourselves (literally or figuratively) or we rally against the gangs. When we are not part of the target group, we become the gang that targets them.

Almost all of the debate points above about what’s “wrong” behaviorally and naturally with transgender people are the exact same points that gay-hating people—including Republican Christians in Congress—always have argued about gay people. Gay men and women here rightly condemn Aaron Schock for his astonishing, cowardly hypocrisy. And the very same people here are hypocritical in the same ways, just applied to transgender human beings instead of gay people because they don’t identify the same way. They are “defective,” “freaks of nature,” “mentally ill,” “damaged,” “unnatural.” All of those pejoratives were applied even from a clinical perspective to gay men and women just a few decades ago. Here and now, I see the descendants of Holocaust victims becoming the Nazis. A bunch of Steven Millers. It’s so fucking weird to me that people are so goddamned limited in their ability to empathize with others.

“They’re gay people confused about their feelings” is the same as “He just hasn’t found the right woman, and he’s with men because he’s confused and depressed.”

“Transgender people are mentally ill” is the same as “homosexuals are mentally ill.”

“They’re defective because they choose to mutilate their bodies” is the same as “they’re defective because they stick their reproductive organs inside of contaminated excretory organs that have nothing to do with reproduction.”

It’s just all the same.

R63: I can understand most of that except for the last. Having to remove your testicles, breasts, penis, and/or taking hormones is more akin to cutting or self-inflicted genital mutilation.

And there are trans people who don’t go the surgical route so that is an inconsistent identifier for their identities.

But I still think it ignores the core issue that gay people can’t be expected to accept all communities that deviate from heteronormative so it’s understandable that there are gay people who just don’t understand trans issues. Gay people barely share the same concerns as lesbians and we’re more closely aligned than trans people.

“But I still think it ignores the core issue that gay people can’t be expected to accept all communities that deviate from heteronormative so it’s understandable that there are gay people who just don’t understand trans issues. Gay people barely share the same concerns as lesbians and we’re more closely aligned than trans people.”

My only real point is that it doesn’t matter that gay people can’t understand trans issue. It doesn’t matter that gay men and gay men may have little in common interestswise or otherwise. It doesn’t matter that a married white gay man and a single black mother and a transgender immigrant from Peru have nothing in common and can’t understand one another’s lives. What everyone can understand is that everyone just wants to be respected and to live in peace. It’s hurtful to be critical of another person’s life. I don’t mean just hurt feelings; it’s harmful to all of us to be vicious and cruel to someone because you can’t understand them. It’s unnecessarily harmful. I don’t understand why people are compelled to do it.

I can’t relate to someone feeling that their body is a vehicle that doesn’t match their spirit and therefore has their genitals and breast size changed. That’s not a life I can imagine for myself.

I also cannot understand why women of Bravo and Michael Jackson have had their faces cut up and rearranged. I don’t hate them for doing it.

I don’t understand people who get piercings all over their bodies. Or people who work as political lobbyists. Or people who are musically gifted.

All these people are very different than I am and I can’t be them and that does not make me think something is wrong with them that needs to be fixed. They live their lives and I live mine. Hateful people and hurtful people deserve condemnation. People who are different do not. The analogies do hold up: certainly 20 years ago, anyone could have argued that having gay sex is riskier than cutting oneself because of the deadliness and incurability of AIDS, but that kind of judgment was not a justifiable criticism of being being gay. People were and are gay because it is who we are. People had sex even when HIV and AIDS were life-threatening risks because that is an expression of our natures, not because we wanted to die and were mentally ill.

People feel out of place in their bodies and who pursue feeling better about themselves—again, I would never have a silicone chin screwed into my skull or have my nose cartilage filed down and implants put into my cheeks but tons of people do these things to feel better about themselves. Why hate them for it? Why call them sick? What does that accomplish besides making you feel like you are supposedly a superior and saner creation? I don’t get it.

This is a good example.

"I can’t relate to someone feeling that their body is a vehicle that doesn’t match their spirit"

"Spirit"? I see "soul" used a lot by TRAs, too. This is a belief system, a religion, not material reality. And that's fine. People can believe whatever they want. I happen to be a spiritual person, but for my entire adult life I have fought (and voted) to keep religion OUT of politics and OUT of government. It is never a good idea to to put "feelz" before "realz," whether they are mine or someone else's.

To compare sexual orientation-- which is a fact that has been scientifically observed and documented throughout the mammalian world-- to "I feel like a girl" is absurd.

The term 'Sexual Minority' would encompass everything. As people morph from gay boi to drag queen to transgender to lesbian (and back again).

It would also represent that we are a minority, and deserving of some extra help in this world.

I don't know what's funnier, if it's the people who don't believe transsexuality to be a biological reality or the idiots thinking there's a conspiracy of "Russians" on this board to create chaos. Get a fucking life.

There's plenty of evidence to back up transsexuality as a reality. I personally believe after reading many peer reviewed papers that real trans people are always dysphoric and indeed have a brain that won't recognize their gender. I also believe there are many fetishists out there pretending to be trans for a variety of reasons, and that would explain the high level of people detransitioning or bizarre and obvious fakes like Gamestop mam dude.

The trans movement unfortunately is being financed by a rich mentally ill trans of the latter variety so that's why they're posing real threat to women's rights and gay rights as a whole.

Also we won't fuck "man" with pussies because we're not straight or bisexual, thank you.

[quote] Why hate them for it? Why call them sick? What does that accomplish besides making you feel like you are supposedly a superior and saner creation? I don’t get it.

We don't hate them for this. We hate them because many are obvious straight men on a fetiche to harass women or because the movement wants to criminalize speech (and have done so already) forcing people to remember made up terms and don't let me started on the forcing of fucking them against our will or abusing children with hormone therapy. That's the real issue here.

No one cared about this when they were just minding their own fucking business and changing their bodies to be happy as they felt like.

[quote] Many people here are displaying and do display (especially in other threads—this one is thoughtful and civil on DL terms) on DL an extraordinary compassionlessness.

Many comments here are cruel in jest, you might have missed the motto of the board that says "pointless bitchery". Don't expect special treatment here, which of course if what you're after.

Let us not forget the monetary aspect to this topic and the rich white men who are funding trans ideology.

Among those who promote trans agenda there are those who are just using the trans community for their own aims and don't really care about the community at all. There are those who promote transitioning because there is money to be made. Trans are forever on hormones and there are the surgeries that cost thousands of dollars. Then there is the nefarious intention of interfering with feminism through the promotion of standard gender roles preferred by many MTF's.

R3, this pic shows white pedo power more than anything else...

after MGTOW wins, and women wither away because no one will be willing to be their emotional tampon anymore (screw you fag hag!), the next gender war will be between those homophobic pre-ops and post-ops...

I deal with people on an individual and personal level. I refuse to buy into any belief that is applied to any group, or type of person. I also don't buy the gay erasure, or that the trans cannot "learn to live as gay" BS either. I especially find this line of thought illogical considering two thirds of MTF trans lead their lives as lesbians. They're simply not gay if they desired women pre and post trans (like Caitlyn Jenner). Though I cannot explain it, or fully understand their situation, I do know enough that sexual orientation is different to one's sense of gender. On most of these threads, I find the majority of posters to be a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

I personally find the constant "there's an epidemic of trans women being murdered" when the data consistently show that is a complete lie to be exhausting. Trans women say this, yes, but more often it's their white, woke satellites that repeat it ad nauseum and refuse to acknowledge the lie when presented with overwhelming evidence--just like republicans! The other lie that gets me is the "trans women are responsible for gay rights" (and it's derivative "trans women of color through the first brick at stonewall, and were in fact responsible for the whole thing!") which you see repeated to a frightening degree, but thankfully gays and lesbians have started to push back on that and reclaim our history.

Also r13 is an excellent summary, written by someone who clearly follows the issue closely (as I do).

OP, I'm opposed to a lot of what the trans rights activists DO and SAY, but not to trans people generally, and do support their rights (the non-insane ones).

MTF identifying as lesbians is the the MAJORITY of them. Those are the ones I'm most suspicious of as having autogynephilia. They are also the ones actively trying to erase lesbians and labeling women who do not wish to suck a dick, "TERFS."

Notice there is no similar term for gay men who won't fuck FTM.

MTF's who id as lesbians need to understand that we understand you might claim to not have autogynephilia when you invade our spaces or try to hit us up on dating apps, but we have no way of knowing that for sure, do we?

And yes, sometimes it IS about the genitals.

R58 That was a lovely and thoughtful post. I don't necessarily use thoughtful in the kind way or definition, but rather it demonstrates some serious well thought out logical rationale. Bravo.

R77 In all seriousness, don't the MTFs accused of Autogynephilia technically need to have a vaginoplasty to qualify for that "sickness"? Just a bit confused, as you lead into this with them getting cheesed off that natural born lesbians won't/don't want to suck their dicks? From what I've read, it's a fetish about [italic] having a vagina of their own, [/italic] and resembling a woman that way.

Once again, Muriel refuses to delete these threads.

No,r79. It has nothing to do with that.

Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism. Autogynephilia encompasses sexual arousal with cross-dressing and cross-gender expression that does not involve women's clothing per se. The concept of autogynephilia defines a typology of MtF transsexualism and offers a theory of motivation for one type of MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia resembles a sexual orientation in that it involves elements of idealization and attachment as well as erotic desire. Nearly 3% of men in Western countries may experience autogynephilia; its most severe manifestation, MtF transsexualism, is rare but increasing in prevalence. Some theorists and clinicians reject the transsexual typology and theory of motivation derived from autogynephilia; their objections suggest a need for additional research. The concept of autogynephilia can assist clinicians in understanding some otherwise puzzling manifestations of nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia exemplifies an unusual paraphilic category called 'erotic target identity inversions', in which men desire to impersonate or turn their bodies into facsimiles of the persons or things to which they are sexually attracted.

R80, why should Muriel delete this thread, are the trans crowd so fragile they can't handle words on a screen? If you're determined to lump the trans mob in with gays & lesbians, you're going to need thicker skin... You're at Datalounge, every tribe is trashed here sooner or later, why should trans people be spared?

Thank you for your reply, and link. I suppose in those who have that as their motivation, the vaginoplasty would be the culmination of the fantasy, taken to the extreme. I should think their attempting sex with their original equipment would squash the fantasy... (and not be enjoyable). Of course, I'm just speculating, as I try to understand where they're coming from. I try to keep an open mind.

I'm not speaking from any certainty that there is a parallel, but keeping an open mind, this is really similar (in an abstract way) to gay men wanting to develop their bodies into the archetypal male physique which they find sexy, or are attracted to, and form attachments to. I've often contemplated how we gay men have a unique relationship with our penises, compared to straight men who often claim they don't understand what's attractive about the male anatomy. Clearly we probably get more enjoyment out of our own bodies and genitals in a similar manner.

R82 I agree. This thread is quite tame compared with some others. Most posts are respectful, and unless I have the posters on block, they don't strike me as the usual trolls seething with hate. (Kinna Hora)

^ first reply to R81

[quote]It would also represent that we are a minority, and deserving of some extra help in this world.

Who's "we"? I'm a gay man (not a "gay boi", so maybe that's the difference). I don't want any extra help because of my sexual orientation. I just want to be treated with equality, no worse but no better than anyone else.

^^^ Sorry. That was a reply to R68.

Muriel used to delete all these threads, but now no longer. Viva la revolucion!

Your concern puzzles me.

And now, it's apparently even considered to be okay not to disclose being trans before engaging in physical contact.

Well, I have know several trans people for over 20 years and all of them are total mental cases in one way or another. All of them are high drama which they create. All of them have lied about their identity to get sex from straight men. It's some kind of twisted game to them. One went to prison for a while after getting in a fight with a straight guys girlfriend even though she was cheating on her own live in boyfriend at the time.

And finally, the ones that went all the way through with the operation and look convincing want to pretend that they never were born another gender and therefore have nothing to do with the gay community they used all that time before they transitioned.

OP Cause they are tiresome mentals

Me too!

Was it a Trojan horse all along?

Chilling, they’re against any type of sexual orientation

^^^ a point worth highlighting:

[quote]Transgender activist Joy Everingham declare(s): “Trans pride is quite challenging to LGB people because if gender is on a spectrum then homosexuality doesn’t really exist, because it can only exist in a binary.”