Did you used to be married to a woman?

OMG OP, not everyone is exactly the same as you! How have you survived thus far without learning that?

I am an elder gay. (Over 45, that's all I'm saying.). After I came out the thing that stunned me was the number of gay men with ex-wives and children. It seemed hard to find a gay man who hadn't been married to a woman.

My partner and I have grand children.

R1= tuna taster

About half of my gay friends were married to women and have children. This is not unusual op have you been living under a rock and just decided to come up for air?

No, it’s just that most of my friends are gold star gays (and under 50).

I was married for 3 years. Thank god I had the courage to come out to her.

I’ve had (gay) affairs with two older men (over 50) who were married and one youngish guy (30’s) who was married.

All had kids.

All could fuck like champs

Bathhouses are filled with older married gay men

OP, you may not understand the society that gay men in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and older grew up in. Anti-gay animus marked that society. Open discrimination of gay men was commonplace. And homophobic epithets were regularly heard in schools, on the playground, in the workplace, and maybe even the home. Many gay men may not have had the experience of being gay as positive or even normative, because they never knew out, gay men growing up. So, they conformed to society's expectations.

I'm 56. I knew I was gay in high school, but I did not come out until some years after college. I had plenty of women friends, but I had no sexual desire for them. So I never bearded or pretended. I was also lucky that when I came out, I had a supportive family and environment. There are many men who did not (and still do not) have that. Be glad that these men have come out now.

Think back to the 1960s. Not too many gays were openly out, not as many as today. Mores were different and men had to get married sometimes to get family off their backs or have a better chance at getting a good job ("married with kids and mortgaged to the hills" was a common expression). If you weren't an actor, you couldn't afford a beard, either.

Most of my gay friends, men and women were married. Several remained married, because they shared sincere love and affection, and didi not mind each other’s company.

Some of us still are.

[quote]OP, you may not understand the society that gay men in their 40s

I’m in my 40s and so are most of my gay friends. None of us has ever touched a woman with a ten foot pole.

It was also the only way to become a parent for many. Plenty of gay people still wanted kids, but there weren’t the options there are today.

I was, but hey, the muff is always greener on the other side...

No, OP, as I am gay.

Wow, so much hand-wringing and twisting in knots to avoid the obvious: these men are bisexual, not homosexual. The vast majority of these formerly married men are quite upfront that they enjoyed sex with their wives. The fact that a man like this prefers men and thus chooses to misidentify themselves as gay does not make them gay, it simply makes them a bisexual who prefers men.

R18, no, these men are NOT bisexual. Most of them are gay men who married women because they were in denial or they thought they could change over time with the love of a woman. Also the pressure to have a conventional marriage was intense up through the mid 80s.

[quote] I’m in my 40s and so are most of my gay friends. None of us has ever touched a woman with a ten foot pole.

Good for you, R14, but there are gay men your age who did not have the wherewithal, support, or courage you evidently had/have. Don't judge them harshly. That was my point.

R18 Don't make excuses for weakness and fear.

R21, the fear of being a lifetime unemployed social pariah was pretty palpable. And you didn't have the luxury of getting married at 30 after you found yourself. You were expected to be married by 22 with a baby on the way. Before you even had time to realize that you weren't the only other gay person on the planet/in your state/in your town.

I've always been attracted to divorced men. I find they make the best, most considerate lovers. Women really know how to train men to be good husbands

OP isn’t your generation busily telling us Elder Gays that gender and orientation are just labels? Yet you have some deep seated homophobia and misogyny going on.

Go back to your politically correct hectoring series you kiddies thump on when expounding on the ignorance of us older men. Review why what you wrote is shallow and offensive.

My current partner was married for 24 years and has 2 adult sons. He was also an high-ranking military officer - but being gay just wasn't an option for most of his life.

He regrets the marriage (she's a narcissist and sociopath), but he loves his sons so much and thinks it was worth it to have them.

Have to tell you - I never thought I would be a gay step 'dad'.

I lived with my childhood sweetheart. We were engaged, planning on marrying. We had sex. She was unfaithful and broke my heart. We broke up and are still close. It easily could have stayed a marriage with kids. Why would I live with her as man and woman? I loved her. A gay man can love a woman. There are so many ways to be straight. There are so many ways to be gay.

A thought provoking post r26

R26

[quote]A gay man can love a woman.

Yes, but not physically. That's literally the one requirement for being gay. Like r18 very correctly said, you can call yourself whatever you want but if you're a male in sexual and romantic love with a female then you're literally, definitionally NOT gay.

R24 it's only ever bisexuals who pull that "labels don't matter" and "hearts not parts!" bullshit.

R14 same but I'm 30. That's the thing about being gay, the fact that Ryan Phillipee turns me on and Scarlett Johansson never will is timeless, and despite some people's best efforts it cannot be negotiated away. SMH why do they even try??

Many gay men and lesbians married opposite sex partners. I know instances where they stayed together until a spouse died, and instances where they split up. It's still happening, but less frequently.

R28, all you wrote is very rigid and narrow-minded and not true at all. People can be brainwashed by society, they can have a hard time coming to terms with themselves, it is all much more vague and flexible than the pretty and clean-cut picture of life you are trying to present. People are more complicated and muddled (to borrow a word from E.M. Forster) than that.

Stupid, R4.

I just found out about an old boyfriend from high school. He was the one who hugged me long and hard in public when I was dealing with 'phobes. Anyway, I just found out he died ten years ago, leaving a wife and five kids! Poor thing.

[quote]He regrets the marriage (she's a narcissist and sociopath),

Well, having a husband who lied to her for decades because 'being gay just wasn't an option' probably didn't help her mental state.

I sympathise with our eldergays who had to do all that in previous decades.

And it makes me sure that most of those who currently use the label 'bisexual' will no longer use it in the coming decades.

R33 - Trust me, that wasn't it. Her own sons think she's a nasty, mean mess of a person.

I would admit it if I remotely thought that he drove her to be that way - but it isn't. She's just a nasty narcissist. She also turned from a liberal Democrat into a hard-core Trump supporting Republican. And everything that goes with that.

I don’t understand it - because even in those homophobic days, the reality is I could not have sex with women, physically incapable. I tried many times and just could not get hard. Which forced me to accept being gay and never getting married. I don’t get how truly gay men are able to have sex with women. Maybe it’s a Kinsey scale thing.

Sexless marriages are far more common than you'd think, R36. Just browse Quora for stories of closeted married men. It's quite sad.

R30

[Quote]all you wrote is very rigid and narrow-minded and not true at all. People can be brainwashed by society... it is all much more vague and flexible than the pretty and clean-cut picture of life you are trying to present.

People are complicated, that's true, but saying that people can be 'brainwashed' into or out of a sexual orientation is literally conversion therapy rhetoric! This is the exact theory espoused by the conversion therapists and it doesn't work!!

Also, no one ever claimed that life in general isn't complicated, but navel-gazers invariably add complexity where none is required. It's always especially interesting to me that these "faux open-minded" and "progressive, fluid" theories of sexual orientation are ever ONLY preached to gays, and never to heterosexuals! Why are heterosexuals allowed to define their own borders but homosexual borders are continually questioned?? But again, regardless, no matter what arguments some people come up with, you can't make a Kinsey 6 gay male be attracted to a female, just like you can't make a Kinsey 1 heterosexual male be attracted to another man (despite our best efforts amirite?). It's ridiculous! Do you seriously think it's possible, and that sexual orientation is subjective?

I have told my story here before. For some reason, my LTRs have been with women. But, I have been a gay slut when it came to bathroom gloryhole, parks, and adult bookstores. I have been in love twice in my life, both women. I fell in love at around 18-19, and the second time when I met my ex-wife in my 30's. I was married for 11 years; committed and physically faithful. We have two wonderful daughters, whom have grown into remarkable women. I cherish them. I would of happily stayed married, with my occasional viewing of nude men, and the emergence of Internet porn to satiate my lust for men. I loved my wife, loved our sex life; unfortunately it didn't love me back.

After my marriage, I did not go headstrong into being a gay slut. I went to this gay bar for maybe close to 10 years, and had maybe 5 encounters. I wanted a relationship; gay men just want to suck a dick, IMHO. I met my current partner at my job where he was a client taking a class I publicly taught. He was the only student at this particular class

We have been together for 6 years, getting old together. I helped him through his foreclosure and hard financial times. I helped him get his credit back in track, and her had money in the bank, and mostly debt free. He too had been married, twice even! Not the most compatible, but not the worse. We have a good life; retirement will be affordable, but not luxurious. I care about him, I enjoy most of my time with him (and his big dick, lol). But in my heart, I don't feel the 'love' that I felt for the two women that I had earlier fallen in love with.

Desperation makes you do things you would never do! I feel sorry for them

I've never been with a woman in that way, and neither has my boyfriend. And yes, times were different, but I'm quite old. I've only been with the one man for over 35 years.

R39 happiness be with you X

Woah, hey, ho, R38!!! WTF and hold your horses. Who's trying to convert you and what the actual fuck is all that faux outrage for? Are you saying that the millions of people who were led by society to believe that what they felt was wrong and there was only one correct way of loving don't exist? That their confusion and struggles are invalid because your neat little mind cannot imagine them? Human nature can be bent and twisted by adversity far more than you seem to believe. Check out stories about people living long-term in hostile and rigid environments such as prisons and cult camps and get back to me. And yes, "normal" society can absolutely be like a prison or a cult if you know nothing else.

Did you used to be educated in English grammar, OP?

R10 , I am also 56. You and I probably came out mid 80s. Yes , it was not as common to come out as it is today . But your notion that we faced the same situations as Gays in the 50s and 60s is pure and Utter bullshit . I never faced harassment Until in my 50s , when this facist fucking pig stole this great country. The happiest Day of my life will be his downfall .

I knew a guy who was married and constantly cheated on his wife. I mean he must have set a record for extra-marital affairs. His wife finally divorced him. Shortly after that, he realized that he was actually gay, found a nice guy and settled down. They're still together.

I feel sorry for the gay men who hid their sexuality with a woman in order to appear straight and got tricked into fatherhood like so many heterosexual men as a result.

[quote] . But your notion that we faced the same situations as Gays in the 50s and 60s is pure and Utter bullshit .

Yes, you're right, R45, the experience of gay men in the 50s and 60s was without doubt worse than our own, but to say that it was "utter bullshit" that we did not face anti-gay animus, homophobia, and discrimination is a fantasy. We could be denied employment and housing across the US. In 1985, when I was a senior in college and still closeted, I was at a bar. It was crowded. I remember laughing and interacting with the people around me. A guy in front of me suddenly turned around, accused me of touching him, and called me a "FAGGOT." I denied it (I hadn't). but he and his friend moved menacingly toward me. I was scared shitless. I could have defended myself, if it came to blow. The whole atmosphere suddenly changed . I hightailed it out of the bar. My closetedness did that. There must have been others who witnessed the incident. No one came to my help. That's anti-gay animus and homophobia. And it was in a major metropolitan area.

Gay men could find welcoming environment when they came out in large (or even smaller) cities. But many gay men were not in those areas. Many of us came out to supportive families and friends. Many more did not. My own family came to be more supportive over the years. At first, it was more DADT-like. And my parents were well-educated and knew gay men.

And then there was Aids. Do you remember the jokes? I do. "What does Gay stand for?" "Got Aids Yet?" You mention the imbecile in the White House today. He and his policies did not spring from nowhere. Ronald Reagan ignored the crisis. His press secretary made a joke of it. And their policies furthered the crisis rather than resolve it. We had to stand up with the help of our lesbian sisters and a few straight allies. Do I need to remind you that families turned their backs on their brothers and sons who became ill with the disease? In the early days of the crisis, again when I was still closeted, I remember an aunt, a well-educated physician, being uncomfortable in restaurant where the waiters were predominately gay.

Popular culture? Even today there is not one out gay player in any of the major sports franchises in the US. Hollywood? I consider Elizabeth Taylor a patron saint, but the rest of the lot out there? It was only when Elizabeth Glaser (a straight woman) was diagnosed as HIV+ that society paused. It did not pause for gay men. Does Matthew Shepard ring a bell? It took the murder of that young man to begin a change in attitudes. And still, there are those who deny he was killed because he was gay.

It's not "utter bullshit."

It’s apparent that Op is immature. No seasoning from life yet.

r39, couple things:

1 - Is your post directly related to this thread or did you just want to share your tale? I ask because I'm assuming you tell people you're bisexual, not gay. It would be a blatant lie on your part if you did tell people people you're gay. You've only ever been truly in love with women and you indicate that you also love having sex with women, what you describe is in no way gay.

2 - I find the story of your current relationship to be almost the inverse of the 'closeted gay man' storyline. Why would a man who seemingly prefers women for relationships seek out one with another man? You sound like a man trapped in a 'gay' relationship when really what you want is to be with a woman. I don't get it. Certainly, society does nothing but support the type of male/female relationship you desire.

You mean no understanding how widespread and pervasive cowardice is.

My first partner was married. I was young (17 when we met, 19 when we got together) and he was much older (31, 33). He was insanely great in bed. He was also attentive and seemingly selfless. Like I'd come home from work and have a new bookshelf that he built. Or he'd paint my kitchen. Just do stuff I didn't ask for, but he did it anyway. It was so sexy. After a decade, we broke up. Never met a man as compatible, in terms of how he treated me, than him. I've always assumed it was due to his marriage training.

I'm married to a woman!

R44 has failed even at being a grammar troll.

Hm... It's pretty interesting to know that DL have more "homoflexibles" (Aka bisexuals that prefers the same sex) than I thought... Please keep posting!

The guy who only has romantic relationships with women is a classic self-hating gay. Believes all the stereotypes of men that aren't true. Pushes men away and pretends it's not about "heterosexual privilege" and "Passing" when it is.

R56 Or, perhaps, he’s demisexual. That his attraction is rooted in romance more than sex might be a tip.

There is such a thing as different combinations of sexual and romantic feelings. For example, when we're talking STRICTLY about sex, I'm bisexual, although sex with men and women feels very different. I'm 100% homoromantic though. Yes, people are a bit complicated

OP, your lack of empathy for anyone/anything different beyond your own little scab of a world is disturbing. Get out of your mommas’ basement and live a life worth living - with legit experiences.

R58 I wonder how often peoples sexual and romantic preferences differ or diverge between the sexes. In other words how many people are the same as you in terms of romantic inclinations towards one sex whilst the other sex just gets sexual inclination or preferences? It would be interesting to know or understand how many bisexual men are homoromantic.

These closet cases are hysterically defensive but cowards they are and ever were.

I am 33. I have a twin brother who is gay and married to a woman. I'm the only one who knows as far as I'm aware. I found gay porn on his computer years ago and a friend sent me a screenshot of his grindr profile. My brother treats me like shit because I'm gay and is always dropping gay slurs around me. He is a monstrous hypocritical cunt and I don't know why I don't just out him. I wish I didn't know,

[quote] care about him, I enjoy most of my time with him (and his big dick, lol). But in my heart, I don't feel the 'love' that I felt for the two women that I had earlier fallen in love with.

r39

Perhaps it's a function of your age during your relationships. Intense romantic love is more common among younger men and women. Later in life, one looks for different things - compatibility, companionship, commonality of interests. There was phrase - back before women's rights - [bold]"Love in a young man's game."[/bold] Now women's passion is recognized more.

But it's hard to find true love after 45. And, well [bold]"There's no fool like an old fool."[/bold]

[quote]There is such a thing as different combinations of sexual and romantic feelings. For example, when we're talking STRICTLY about sex, I'm bisexual, although sex with men and women feels very different. I'm 100% homoromantic though. Yes, people are a bit complicated

r58, not complicated at all, you're a bisexual who prefers relationships with men.

I would like to ask you a question though, I've asked other bisexuals this (mostly the "only romantically attracted to women" ones) and never got a satisfactory answer. To me there are 2 variables in attraction: physical attraction and personality attraction. The former is dependent on a person's sex but the latter is not. I can understand being attracted to one sex more than the other, but I can't understand being sexually attracted to both but only attracted to the personality of one sex, when that is a characteristic that is independent of sex. Basically what I'm asking is, how can a bisexual be 100% homo/heteromantic? If you meet a woman who you are sexually attracted to and she also has the personality traits that appeal to you, then what exactly would be preventing you from falling in love with her?

R64, I just don't feel love. If I like her personality, we will become friends. I will like and admire her but will never feel love. I have never felt even one bit in love with a woman but have many female friends. I can function sexually with women but without any emotional connection - just very dirty, freaky sex that's very satisfying on the physical level but is the type of sex you only feel in your genitalia and once it's over, it's over.

I'm not like that with men. Every encounter with a man I like is tinted by strong romantic emotions. The sex is ecstatic and I experience it with my entire body, not just my dick.

And finally, do you really need to put such a restrictive label on me and try to tell me who I, a stranger on the internet, am? It feels uncomfortable and it's not that "simple" so please don't presume to know who I am better than me.

r65, yeah, I don't get it. I think to truly understand bisexuality I would have to be bisexual. Thanks for the response anyway.

[quote]And finally, do you really need to put such a restrictive label on me and try to tell me who I, a stranger on the internet, am? It feels uncomfortable and it's not that "simple" so please don't presume to know who I am better than me.

Uh, are you for real with this? I literally just repeated what you had stated earlier: that you're sexually attracted to both sexes (i.e. bisexual) but that you prefer relationships with men? If you are uncomfortable with being thought of as bisexual then that is your issue, it doesn't change the fundamental truth of the matter. Also, how in the world can bisexuality be thought of as a 'restrictive label'? It's the opposite of restrictive, it's vast and encompasses all the grey area between heterosexuality and homosexuality.

R66 I guess the label "bisexual" doesn't fit because, although it's technically correct, I would never pursue a relationship with a woman. Now enough of this.

Also, I didn't say I was sexually "attracted" to both sexes. I'm sexually "functional" with both sexes. It's a bit different. One thing you actively pursue. The other, you're okay when it happens, but it stays in that moment only.

r68, like I said, I can't really say I understand how bisexuality (or whatever it is you're describing now) works as I only have sex with people I'm attracted to, who are all men. I won't have sex with an available/willing woman because that's not what I'm attracted to; that's what makes me gay: an exclusive attraction to the same sex.

R69, I'm sorry you're unable to understand, but please do stop talking to me like I'm an idiot.

r70, I don't see how anything I've said could be interpreted as belittling, so I think I'm just gonna call it a night because this seems counterproductive.

71 replies and nobody has commented on the "[d]id you used to be married" language?

[quote]71 replies and nobody has commented on the "did you used to be married" language?

R44 did

Omg. Life can be messy. The 80s NYC college. Best friend is gay man (I am a straight woman). He wants to get married and we should move to his wealthy Westport CT home and have our own lovers. I pass on that shit (hmm all these years of work later maybe it was a sweet deal). Never hear from him for all I know he didn’t make it through what was going on back then. Then I go to Law School. Meet a cute guy and we are planning a life together. Get pregnant. Decide not to have child. He leaves me for a guy. 35 years later we are still best friends. We have been through each other’s relationships, jobs, problems. I spoke at his wedding some 10 years ago. He has been at my weddings. We are touchstones for each other. He is family. We are there for each other. I am happily married. He is married complains a lot but they stay together. I have to say that whenever I have met a new guy he always asks me to describe the guy’s cock to him as if he were a blind man. I always decline. So it’s messy but shit works out. Open your heart to where people belong in your life. Love them as they are, where they are and who they are. A psychic told us we were brother and sister in another life. Who is to know? I do know that judging people is BS. Live and let live.

[quote]If you are uncomfortable with being thought of as bisexual then that is your issue

A lot of bisexuals seem to be uncomfortable with it, one way or another.

[quote]The guy who only has romantic relationships with women is a classic self-hating gay.

Sure, maybe, but he's now in a relationship with a man. Maybe his story is just one that a bazillion people of any sexual orientation could tell: "I've been in a few LTRs, but only one or two were the true loves of my life." As r63 notes, this situation is increasingly likely as you get older and may no longer want/expect youthful intensity and fireworks from a relationship and are happy to settle for someone who's a pleasant companion.

[quote] A lot of bisexuals seem to be uncomfortable with it, one way or another.

And a lot of DLers seem uncomfortable with the notion that some gay men can fake their way through a relationship with a woman and still be gay. I mean, really, where do you think the concept of the closet came from?

Personally, I find that it's a waste of time and a losing proposition to try to convince someone that you know more about his sexual orientation that he does. Even if you're right, what's the point? Here, frankly, the point seems mostly to point out you're a better gay than others and/or to get someone to "confess" that he's bi, so you can then rail about how awful bisexuals are.

I have two older married FBs. They are both in their 50’s and have gorgeous bodies. They are both fantastic in bed— great kissers and great fucks.

They have adult kids and say they no longer have sex with their wives. They are constantly searching for gay sex on Grindr and in bathhouses. I guess they’re making up for lost time.

One has a monstrous cock and gets any bottom he wants

R39- If I may suggest, it sounds to me like you are bi-sexual, but homo-romantic. This means that sexually, you can have satisfying sex with both men and women (though you clearly prefer men in that regard), while romantically/emotionally, you only really feel it for women. Hence, bisexual, homo-romantic. It's a thing, really. It does make things tough for some though, as your story proves.

If only more people were aware of who and what they really are, they could find partners who accept them that way.

r74 Thanks for telling us about your heterosexuality.

What R18 R38 said... DL is the only place that "gay" men is sexually/romantically to women is still "gay".

R79, that would be bisexual and heteroromantic. Don't copy what other people have said upthread without understanding it.

To all the gay men who have practiced tuna love: your dicks smell like fish.

[quote] To all the gay men who have practiced tuna love: your dicks smell like fish.

Along with my dick, my tongue smells too....... And menstrual blood running down my chin!

Lordy, I was a horn dog.

Gross.

[quote]Personally, I find that it's a waste of time and a losing proposition to try to convince someone that you know more about his sexual orientation that he does. Even if you're right, what's the point? Here, frankly, the point seems mostly to point out you're a better gay than others and/or to get someone to "confess" that he's bi, so you can then rail about how awful bisexuals are.

r77, no one can make another person use a label they don't prefer. But, by the same token, the way a person identifies does not dictate how others perceive them. A man who is sexually attracted to men and women is free to identify as gay. However, others are free not to disregard the basic definition of the word and consider the man to be bisexual.

To your second point, there is no 'good' gay or 'bad' gay. There is no percentage of gay. There is only one criteria to be gay: exclusive sexual attraction to the same sex. Pointing out that a man who is sexually attracted to both men and women (regardless of the preference) is actually bisexual is not not an attack, it's simply the truth. The onus is on the bisexual to be comfortable in their own skin, not for others to placate them. I mean, would you really consider a straight-identified man who is sexually attracted to both men and women to be straight? No, of course not. So why would the reverse be any different?

R77 meant that you sound like you're saying "I'm a better gay than you, nyah nyah nyah". And you do, no matter how reasonable you try to sound. You're just stopping people who want to be fully honest here with your little labels, your pseudoscientific oversimplifications and your insufferable self-righteousness. So why don't you just go away?

Married a woman in 1987, stayed together until 1994, no kids. We're still friends, in fact she kept my surname. First time I went into a gay bar I couldn't believe how many men forgot to take off their wedding rings.

Those men are bisexual, not gay. Nothing wrong with had a relationship with a women but having sex with someone usually means that you are attracted to that person.

[quote] He is a monstrous hypocritical cunt and I don't know why I don't just out him. I wish I didn't know,

R62, I am sorry that your brother, your twin brother no less, is a miserable piece of shit to you. Pity him and hope that some day he finds the courage to be himself. If that never happens, so be it. Find comfort in the fact that you are a better man than he. But resist the urge to out him. If you do, you may end up hurting others like his wife or his children. And you'll be the skunk at the garden party.

r87, the existence of bisexuality is pseudo-science now? LOL. Mate, if the basic definition of words is too triggering for you then maybe you should seek out a safe space, DL ain't it.

Go read a book, R91, you're tiresome.

[quote] [R77], no one can make another person use a label they don't prefer. But, by the same token, the way a person identifies does not dictate how others perceive them. A man who is sexually attracted to men and women is free to identify as gay. However, others are free not to disregard the basic definition of the word and consider the man to be bisexual.

All this is true, but I wasn't talking about men who are sexually attracted to both men and women. I was pointing out that some gay men who dated or married women before coming out of the closet really are gay. They weren't actually sexually attracted to their girlfriends/wives, they just faked it—something not everyone can do, but some can. Most accounts I've read—or know of personally—of hetero marriages in which the husband was gay involve a very limited to practically nonexistent marital sex life and a lot of sneaking around having secret gay hook-ups. To say these guys must be bi because they once chose to deny/hide their gayness by getting involved with a woman seems absurd.

I just don’t understand how they could will themselves to get up close to a smelly, gaping vagina. How could you not gag from the stench? And then to put your penis in it? And roll around with those gross, pendulous mammaries in your face? These guys have to have severe mental problems.

R94 Cory? Time to log off and come to bed!

r93, I'm in complete agreement with what you wrote. Those are not the type of men I was referencing.

I have two ex-husbands. Then I finally realized what was wring and came out in my late 30s.

^wrong

R97 I was going to suggest it's plumbing, not wiring.

That, too, R99.

My partner was married for ten years and they had three children. He told me that he always knew he was gay and had a boyfriend in high school. This was in the seventies. He married because he was in love with his wife but most importantly, wanted children. They divorced because the grew apart. He advanced in his career but she didn’t want to fit in or socialize with his colleagues. He has a PHD and she attended a community college.

[quote]He married because he was in love with his wife

He’s not gay.

Hi OP!

I'm the Kinsey Scale!

I am the answer to all your questions!!

TL;DR: There are a range of sexualities and Gold Star Gay is just one of them. If you'd like to label anyone who is not a Gold Star Gay a "bisexual" that's your prerogative.

In addition to everything R10/BPC said, I have heard from many of you (on DL) that the fear of AIDS pushed pretty much any guy who could fake it into the closet back in the 80s and 90s and can't say I blame them--especially if the prevailing thought was that gay sex = painful early death + stigma.

And OP--young gay men have been getting it up for women for thousands of years in order to procreate. A blow job, some dim lights and visions of your favorite gay porn scene in your head....

Peter Sarsgaard was a 10 on the Kinsey scale.

^That was the only Scale he was a 10 on.

The number of "gay" men that married women who is actually gay is very low, most of them is bisexuals and this thread just confirm this.

[quote] [R93], I'm in complete agreement with what you wrote. Those are not the type of men I was referencing.

Okay, r86, My comment was directed more toward people like the illiterate above me at r107 who believe that almost any man who ever had a relationship with a woman, no matter how much he was faking it/not into it/etc., is really bi, even if he says otherwise.

The English verb "to be" has a plural form R107

So rather than "is" we say "are"

So "the man is" and "the men are"

R104 I came of age in the 90s. What you’re describing about the 80s and 90s is the narrative put forth by glbt organizations and not actually the way it was. Every few years they’ll rewrite history in order to make recent history look bad and to continue to maintain fundraising efforts so that their organizations can keep paying salaries to them. As a millennial you may not have experienced that yet, but you will. You are guilty of bi-erasure. Bisexuals did exist and some identity as gay. For those who’ve read about this topic you know that these individuals may experience their orientation in a different way than we monosexuals understand. That’s why they’re able to be heterosexual while married and really gay when you meet them, post-divorce. It’s not a 50/50 attraction all the time. I’ve met and spoken to at least ten different men over my life who’d once been married to women and later identified as gay. They were very matter of fact about having once been with women. I’m not some pro-bisexual crusader. I’m very pro-gay. Pushing the lie that gay men can get it up for women, they just don’t want to is a form of gaslighting. It hurts even more when it’s coming from within our own community because it’s a betrayal by those we assume are our allies. I’ve written about this. It’s a way of saying that being “less gay” is better. it would be the equivalent to someone in the black/African-American community bragging about being lighter skinned because they have some white in them.

Oh, ffs, r110, some gay men CAN and have gotten it up for women while masquerading as straight. Doesn't mean they enjoyed it all and doesn't mean they are bi, either. Now, if some gay guy brags about fucking women as though that makes him more masculine/less nelly/superior to other gay men, that is shitty, but it doesn't mean every gay guy who's ever had sex with a woman is really bi.

So, R110, according to your paranoid little rant, only Kinsey 0 and Kinsey 6 are "valid" straights and gays and everyone else is bi, no matter if they agree or not? Have you ever been out of your house?

I enjoyed sex with women. I fucked a few in HS and college. Usually the girls that hung around me and all my stoner buds. They weren’t exactly marrying material.

When discussing guys who like to call themselves bisexual for the masculinity of it, my friend and I call them men who still have sex with women. It usually passes, lol.

R111 - My objective is to maintain the knowledge we’ve already acquired and undo the damage done by those who are damaged and want to damage others.

“Some men just want to watch the world burn” -Alfred Pennyworth

R111 R112 Kinsey scale is so fucking outdated, idk why people still uses this.

Not sure why this is an either/or scenario

There are bi men who married women and there are gay men who married women and managed to get it up for them and they both existed at the same time.

Given that in much of the world, arranged marriages are the norm and homosexuality is a crime, it would seem many have little choice than to do otherwise.

R112 - See my previous response to R110. It applies to you too. I found you saying this amusing: "no matter if they agree or not" . Science and reality don't have to agree with something you think for it to be a fact. There doesn't need to be a consensus. It just is. Obviously, if you regularly have, or have a history of having regularly had sex with a member of the opposite sex, you can refer to yourself as gay now, but your orientation is actually bisexual. I would hope that that would clear it up for you, but I doubt it. You and those like you are intent on maintaining chaos and confusion. In having dealt with individuals in the past who want to maintain some kind of confusion concerning their sexuality it's because they have nothing else interesting about them. They're boring and empty. They think that this topic sets them apart.

R117-- are you discounting the sizable number of people who have "regularly had sex with a member of opposite sex" without actually enjoying it, e.g., they did to maintain a facade or to meet societal expectations?

I suspect that's where the confusion on here lies-- you are talking about people who have [italic] enjoyed [/italic] the sex they've had with both genders?

Let's stop feeding the bi troll. He's obviously under the delusion that he himself is "science" and, despite his obvious ignorance, continues to insist and not listen. Typical deplorable. Dunning-Kruger.

R37, Go to any Conservative church, mosque, or synagogue even today and you'll see plenty of gay men who aren't out. Most still get married. No not all are bisexual. They find a woman who for any number of reasons wants a celibate marriage. If they have common values and interests other than sex often they'll stay together.

r118 I agree that the 'enjoyable' component is the crux of the issue, which is what I was getting at with:

[quote] but if you're a male in sexual and romantic love with a female then you're literally, definitionally NOT gay.

You'd think that this would be an uncontroversial statement, but apparently the "gay" bisexuals on datalounge disagree. You can be married to a women with four kids and still be gay if you are unaffected by females, which is a very different situation from the above "gay" posters fondly reminiscing on their past enjoyable sex with women--that's literally not gay!

I really wanna how can these guys get it up for a stinking fish and even have orgasm.

[quote] Obviously, if you regularly have, or have a history of having regularly had sex with a member of the opposite sex, you can refer to yourself as gay now, but your orientation is actually bisexual.

That is neither obvious nor a fact. As has been pointed out, it depends on whether you enjoyed that heterosexual relationship and would consider having another one, or whether you were in it strictly in the hopes of hiding your true sexuality and convincing yourself and/or others that you were straight. A man who fakes his way through a relationship with a woman, knowing all the while that he'd rather be with another man, and eventually comes out and leaves the relationship BECAUSE he wants to be with men, and never subsequently entertains a single thought of trying to be with a woman again is not bisexual by any sane person's definition.

[quote] You and those like you are intent on maintaining chaos and confusion.

Only in your mind does the idea of a gay man who once, in his closeted past, had relationships with women create chaos and confusion. Most people understand that it happens and are unbothered by it. People pretend to be all kinds of things that they aren't, including attracted to women. A lie that somebody lived for a while 20 or 30 years ago is a not a part of his "scientific" identity and the fact that that apparently blows your wig off is your problem to deal with.

This thread’s title wording is awkward.

If a gay man has sex with a woman once (or more times), that doesn't make him bisexual. Many men went into the closet and married women because that was the only path towards the "American Dream" (prior to high school LGBT alliances, domestic partnership recognition, and in vitro fertilization technology). The United States was a very different place a few decades ago.

Gay is who you love, not who you do.

R126 Same for the Bisexuals above with their enjoyable past.

[quote]Re R47 “Do Women Really Want a Male Birth Control Pill?”

It’s not like women can stand in the way of such a thing. You think only female researchers could invent this pill?

Don’t be lazy.