The Rise And Fall Of The American Debutante

They stopped mattering?

I enjoyed this first-hand account. It's a lost art form.

[quote]To start, you have to find a dress. And not any dress, but a floor-length, pure white ballgown. So where do you go shopping for one? A bridal store! I can’t describe how odd it was to walk into a New York City bridal store at age 17 and announce, “Hi, I’m looking for a dress.” A long silence followed, after which my mom hastily added, “It’s for her graduation and her debutante. She isn’t getting married!” The sales lady looked rather relieved.

They stopped when birth control stop being shocking. Without any real virgins, or the pretense of a virgins in sight, the whole affair just became a bit ridiculous. Let's also remember that woman started rebelling against these straight from little girl to wife social structures, which is what a debutant is about. No need to look for a future husband at 16-18 when you have college to look forward to and maybe a few years on a job.

Before all of this, I imagine that the Great Depression had a lasting effect. The gilded age families with their exclusive balls would have been dwindling or starting to mix with the newly post-war rich. Then the growing middle class girls started getting into the fun. At that point it just wasn't as necessary or enchanting for the wealthy. Better to send your daughter off to a top line college to meet a man then waste time matching her up to some sweaty teenage boy.

I was an escort at Kansas City's Jewel Ball in 1975

Fair enough, R3, but a debut was more than a just a husband hunt (though it was also that).

It was a young lady's social debut: her formal introduction to, basically, anyone who mattered: other young ladies, their families, and of course, their escorts.

And to the press, in its limited (and fawning) capacity.

I think gender reveal parties have replaced debutante balls on the cultural landscape.

My girlfriend debuted at the International Debutante Ball in 1982. I didn't tell her or myself I was gay until 1984 when we were in college together. We're still social friends though not close. She never married!!

African-American debutante cotillion.

I went to see Metropolitan again earlier this year and it stood up well. The last throws of the Debutante age.

I really enjoyed METROPOLITAN too.

Whit Stillman confessed that it was pulled together so quickly and on the cheap that while his script was set in the 1960s (and was filled with references from that era), at the last minute that they were able to borrow most of the women's 1990 debutante wardrobe--hence an abrupt shift to the present day while they were shooting. Everything you see onscreen was begged, borrowed, or stolen, apparently.

Google Brenda Frazier Deb of the year 1938 - the book written about her was very dishy. Debs after the 50’s were kind of watered down imho. By the 80s/90s debs were kind of a joke as anyone could attain ia spot with cash not class, though still a big deal in the south.

Was Brenda regarded as a great beauty in her day?

What about Angora Debs?

Hell, what about EUGENE V. DEBS?

R10. Thanks for the information on Metropolitan, one of my favorite movies. I’ve always tried to pin down the timeframe, as it was all too familiar to my college days (‘80s). I went to a bunch of deb parties in those days, culminating in the ignominious fate of passing out drunk at the National Debutante Cotillion.

I think they had a gradual decline in mattering, from the 1940s, to the 1970s. That was when it became more fashionable for young women to get college degrees and live independently for a while before finding a husband, feminism and careers for women came in and letting one's parents guide one's romantic life went out, and young men of wealth and position stopped looking for wives on the debutante circuit. And as Miss Manners said, "Giving one's daughter a coming-out ball presupposes keeping them in before hand".

I have been assured that these days, young men of wealth and position are all looking for wives among the graduates of top colleges, that these days a degree from Stanford will get an ambitious young woman further on the marriage market than any party circuit.

Even prior to WWI the whole debutante or coming out thing was becoming absurd on both sides of pond.

Basically you had a bunch of young women presented to a society they already knew and were running around in; but now they were "out".

Prior to this when young girls were locked up in convents, boarding schools or otherwise away from the world, debuts and or court presentation made a bit more sense. It was a way to introduce a young lady to society and in days when such things mattered, find her an appropriate husband.

Well into the Edwardian period for both GB, USA and European societies it was considered bad form to court a younger daughter who wasn't "out". That is if you went to a house party or other event where all daughters were present, a man was only supposed to pay attention to girls he could possibly marry. It was also deemed insulting if a younger girl married before her elder sister or sisters.

Yes, it was a marriage meat market pretty much. Around presentation/debut time is also when a family (usually the father) started circulating how much a girl would be bringing to her marriage. In days when a husband by law got everything a wife had or was expected to get this wasn't a small matter. A girl who bought with her land, tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, pounds, francs or whatever per year, or an outright heiress worth millions was a catch no matter if she was a beauty or jolie laide

[quote]The last throws of the Debutante age.

Oh Dear! did the brats really sling the bouquets?

Still one of my favorite scenes from "Metropolitan"!

Idea much less sight of young WASPs knowing and doing the cha-cha in supposedly 1980's (or 1990's) NYC just cracks me up.

Fact as children and teens they went to dancing school was more of a revelation. Some friends grew up with explained yes, they did go to dance classes which we never let them live down.

When did wedding announcements stop giving details of what the bride and bridesmaids wore?

Perhaps the last of really famous debs was Corneila Guest, daughter of famous C.Z. Guest

When speaking of "our very best homes" on UES it didn't get much better than C.Z. Guest

Cornelia Guest is the real thing; not like these jumped up daughters of nobodies one sees at balls nowadays

They were last presented at Court to HM Queen in 1958 in the UK.

I suppose that was the beginning of the end everywhere.

In her youth CG was a bit of a bad girl, but she long has settled down.

"Was Brenda regarded as a great beauty in her day?"

Kind of. She really wasn't a great beauty, but was made up to look like one. Her signature look (copied by, among othesr, Gloria Vanderbilt) was very dark hair, very white skin (someone referred to her coloring as "milk in shadow") and dark red lips. It's not a look everyone can pull off; it can come across as quite ghoulish and harsh. She kept her "look" until the end of her life. Her figure wasn't much; she had terrible legs that were shapeless and would swell up, supposedly due to psychological distress. At some fancy ball (Her debut? I can't remember) she was an unadorned pale pink strapless dress, which started a trend for strapless dresses that lasted years. She was considered, for a time in the thirties, to be "The World's Most Glamourous Girl." Although she was never what you would call abused (she was neglected as a child, as most children of the rich were) she had severe psychological problems. Her marriages failed; she was a lousy mother to her only child. She became anorexic and addicted to pills. She'd hole up in her apartment, lying in bed all day. Diane Arbus took a famous photo of her lounging in bed, looking like an apparition. She became progressively more ill and unstable. Finally she died of cancer (but she's been a physical wreck long before that) at age sixty. Basically, she led the life of an aimless, useless rich person, much like Barbara Hutton and Doris Duke and Christina Onassis, all of them very wealthy, all of them profoundly unhappy.

I gather that’s what this is, yes?

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

Was there ever a Debbie the Deb?

The great tragedy of my mother-in-law’s sheltered life was that her debut year was during WWII and they cancelled the ball here in Raleigh. I don’t she ever got over it.

By post war years things were getting very sloppy and really going into the gutter far as court presentations.

What began with royal or noble ladies/gentlemen presenting their daughters, sons, newly married spouses, and other close family or friends to the monarch, soon became a free for all as hard up noble women began charging fees to sponsor anyone from any background. Princess Margaret (among others) was outraged and calls grew loud for changes or simply to end things.

This all played out in the background of post WWII socialist governments that came to power in GB.

One of the few but famous deb balls that still is going strong is the Vienna Opera Ball.

There would have been at least one 'Debbie the Deb' in the UK in the shape of Deborah Mitford who became The Duchess of Devonshire.

Though it too has become rather common, IIRC the Kardashians mere et filles were there one year in full force.

R32

For a good read and laugh catch Deborah, Duchess of Devonshire's two books "Love In Cold Climate" and "Pursuit of Love".

And so DL's bizarre fascination with the social mores of the upper middle classes of mid-20th century America continues anew.....

Did wealthy Jewish girls make their debut? Were they welcome to join the larger balls in place like NYC, or did they have their own events?

So you believe every gay man in North America or Europe is middle class or poor do you?

Well hold on to your hat dear, because am here to tell you there are plenty of gay men (and women) from our very best homes, and that has been true for ages. Know at least two gay couples who live on Park Avenue , another on Fifth.

In fact the townhouses, row houses, white glove apartment buildings have more than their share of gay men or couples. Yes, they all come from same social and professional circle as everyone else, and often hold many of the same prejudices, but there you are.

Many gays from that set read and post on DL often enough. Even if only to call out poseurs and climbers.

Deb of the Year, 1947

Millennial deb here. Very private, very fun. My sister’s year, 3 before mine, they didn’t have any Jews. In the 21st century. In a top 5 metropolitan, very wealthy liberal city. My year they did, any the roster tripled.

*and, not any. Sorry, deep in my cups.

Brenda Frazier, dissolute

R34 Pretty sure that Nancy Mitford was the Novelist and Diana Mitford was the Fascist married to Oswald Mosley. Another sister Unity was obsessed with Hitler and tried to shoot herself in the head.

All the family do appear as thinly veiled characters in Nancy's books though.

Debbie the Deb, Duchess of Devonshire! I’m in love!

R37 seems to be speaking of the Evening Punctuationist and his assistant, Randolf.

They still happen in the south. My sister did it. I'm sure they've updated it a bit, but it still felt silly and gratuitous. Why are they having a party exactly and why does this suddenly mean she's on the market? It's very confusing.

They were still happening in the late 70s in Seattle when I was in high school for a certain group of socially connected old money families. It was quite the scandal when my senior year, the MC announced 'And now for the ladies of the evening'.

R41

Yes, that is correct, got my Mitford sisters mixed up.

Debutante balls are still a big thing in Texas. You've not lived until you've seen a woman worth more money than God in a dress that costs thousands crawl on floor to get the perfect picture of her daughter bowing.

And now the famous "Texas Dip"

Practice makes perfect!

Now how it's done, and why Texas Dip has over shadowed the St. James Bow

And dissoluter.....

I love these kinds of topics

Ellie Kemper was queen of that weirdo deb Veiled Prophet Ball in St Louis.

All right, what the fucking FUCK is up with that veiled prophet debutante ball???

You know, I think it's time for Debutante Balls to make a comeback.

Because they'd fit in so well with the culture of today's helicopter parents and spoiled teens! Really, what is a debutante ball ,but a chance for parents to show off their kids and heap the little pests with fake praise, while spending more than they can afford on social media-friendly nonsense and controlling every aspect of their children's lives, down to whom they date? Seriously, this is overdue.

What the Hell is that at R54, certainly doesn’t look very upper crust at all....yikes!

Holy shit, the Veiled Prophet Ball is a real thing!

"The Veiled Prophet Ball is a dance held each December in St. Louis, Missouri, by the "Veiled Prophet Organization", founded by prominent St. Louisans in 1878. Each year, one member of the Veiled Prophet Organization is chosen to serve as the "Veiled Prophet of Khorassan," to preside over the Veiled Prophets Ball. Five of the debutantes (all attend by invitation only) are chosen by secret process to make up the "Veiled Prophet's Court of Honor." One is chosen to be crowned the "Queen of Love and Beauty" by the Veiled Prophet. "

Straight people are so fucking weird.

R35/YMF, there are worse, and more bizarre, fascinations.

R19, the cha-cha scene fits a little better when you consider that Stillman’s story was originally meant to be taking place around 1970. See R10 for an explanation of why the costumes are contemporary to the film's 1990 release.

Although I was puzzled at first by the indistinct time setting of the movie, in the end I think it gave Metropolitan a timeless quality that has stood up well.

They're still debutante balls in Los Angeles, they're just called Quinceañeras now.

More one watches Metropolitan again it becomes so clear how much Stillman got so right.

For record AT Harris formal wear went out of business back in 2007 IIRC.

R61, what a great scene!

Sadly, AT Harris went out of business in 2007.

Birmingham has something sort of similar to Veiled Prophet and the New Orleans/Mobile Mardi Gras balls: the Beaux Arts Krewe Ball (a fundraiser for the Birmingham Museum of Art). The king and queen are always an old fart and a hot young thing.

I’ve got an A.T. Harris suit bag somewhere that belonged to my dad, probably from the time my parents lived in Rye. I used to keep my tuxedo in it as well.

A really good article on the Veiled Prophet Ball.

The late Gage Bush Englund, ballerina and ballet mistress for the American Ballet Theatre, decided she wanted more from life than to marry a boring banker, lawyer, or doctor after her debutante season.

She was Deb of the Year in Birmingham in the mid-'50s, and her $60,000 presentation ball was covered by [italic]Life.[/italic] Her mother, Margaret Gage Bush, the queen bee of Birmingham society at the time, had put her in ballet lessons as a child to help her recover from polio. What Margaret didn't expect was that Gage would love ballet, be good at it, and decide to pursue it as a career—which horrified Margaret (because "show people").

When Gage married Richard Englund (a dancer and artistic director of ABT II and Joffrey II), Margaret cut her out of her will; she relented on her deathbed, though.

Since the deb circuit longer offers young women anything of practical value, and doesn't do a damn thing for their prospects in life...

Is it ALL about the pushy mothers now?

Ghastly!

Debutantes and matrons

“Little” Edie Beale’s debutante ball invitation.

R67

Watch that clip from Metropolitan again.....

"Music, dance, entertainment; hot nutritious meals, all at no expense to yourself......"

If you take the whole marriage market thing out of equation it can be for both young women and men just a series of fun parties. Yes you have to dress up but there is all that free food, booze, meeting other people, being with friends.

R71, and, in earlier generations, free dancing. People used to love social dancing. And, even if they didn't, the ability to dance at least a little was a requirement for people with active social lives and a common way to get to know a member of the opposite sex better. The deb balls provided a way for a young man or woman to become more proficient through practice. This is no longer very important - another reason the balls have fallen out of favor.

A.T. Harris, for those who didn't know:

Rory Gilmore had a debutante ball. It's not just the south.

Miss Brenda Frazier

I lived through Brenda Frazier, and I'm here!

Why don't men debut?

[quote]Why don't men debut?

A number of African American charitable/Greek-letter societies present high-school-age boys at "beau-tillion" (rhymes with "cotillion") balls. They frequently serve as escorts for debutantes.

I'm friends with Cornelia, who is just a great -- very into animals and animal protection. Vegan. Politically liberal. Cool person. Many people who run into her today have no idea what she was the first celebutante.

There's a cute sketch from the "Saturday Night Live" episode of January 26, 1980, called "Debs Behind Bars." Teri Garr, Jane Curtin and Gilda Radner play debs, and Laraine Newman plays Gloria Vanderbilt. Her earring falls off and as soon as she realizes it she quickly removes the other earring. Unfortunately you now have to pay to watch that episode.

It doesn't surprise me that my old hometown of St. Louis, one of the most snobbish cities in America, still has the VP ball. When I was growing up, whatever titan of industry who was the prophet that year got to make his daughter queen and boy, were there some ugly debs chosen.

I’m on the fringe of the Upper East Side society crowd. One has a daughter who is transitioning to male and has thoroughly rejected the scene. I suspect she’ll eventually relent in about a decade when the advantages become clearer. Or not. I do know a few kids in ballroom dance classes, which is also amusing. They hate it.

Speaking of “Metropolitan”... the young people I knew back in the late 80s in that bubble were not sitting around discussing ideologies. The strip poker scene was more accurate. The Lester Lanin hats were a nice touch.

What's hilarious about St. Louis snobbery is that they have absolutely nothing to be snobbish about. The city has been dying a slow death for decades.

[quote]The Lester Lanin hats were a nice touch.

He's still alive????

R84, no, he died in 2004 (had to look that up). It was just a small little thing in the movie that was an authentic touch.

Who knew?

The International Debutante Ball

The International Debutante Ball is an invitation-only, formal debutante ball, to officially present well-connected young ladies of distinction from upper-class families to high society. Founded in 1954, it occurs every two years at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City.

Young women from all over the United States and from around the globe are brought together at the ball and the surrounding parties, including daughters of Presidents of the United States, billionaire businessmen, diplomats, nobility, ambassadors and governors. Over the years the ball has benefited numerous charities from the International Debutante Ball Foundation including the Soldiers', Sailors', Marines', Coast Guard and Airmen's Club of New York, a social club for members of the United States Armed Services.

The International Debutante Ball is considered the most prestigious debutante ball in the world.

Qualifications and selection

In order to be presented as a debutante at the International Debutante Ball, debutantes must be recommended by a previous debutante of the International Debutante Ball. Debutantes must also be accepted by the Chairmen of the Debutante Committee of the International Debutante Ball and be able to afford the debutante presentation fee. Once chosen, each debutante is required to pay at least $22,000. Additionally, many debutantes spend thousands more for their required white haute couture gowns, celebrity hairdressers and other related expenses. Debutantes who are usually accepted are "women of distinction" who are highly accomplished young ladies in athletics, community service, academics, philanthropy and charity and are from well-connected families.

The debutantes are young women who maintain the standards of civility, chastity, manners, etiquette and gentility. Chosen debutantes are usually between the ages of 17 and 21 years old. According to the current organizer of the ball, the debutantes must be well-known with connections in the New York debutante and high society and as long as 'the debutante has the right connections, she has a chance of being invited'. According to The New York Times, the organiser of the ball stated that the ball does not want any "Tootsie" to participate or join "the club". Debutantes of the International Debutante Ball have been referred to as "members of a special and very select, elite, social group and of a carefully guarded social circle" and they have also been dubbed as "high profile" and "preppy". It has been reported that some guests have paid at least $100,000 for a table at the ball.

The debutantes include royalty, members of imperial families, heiresses, aristocrats and daughters of many political figures including Presidents of the United States, such as the daughters and granddaughters of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, President Richard Nixon, President Lyndon B. Johnson, President George H. W. Bush and President George W. Bush. Ivanka Trump (daughter of President Donald Trump) and Sasha and Malia Obama (daughters of President Barack Obama) have also been invited to be presented as debutantes at the International Debutante Ball in New York City. The International Debutante Ball has therefore been referred to as "the debutante ball with the strongest (and bipartisan) ties to the White House". Debutantes of the International Debutante Ball also include daughters of billionaire businessmen from the Forbes 400 and many Wall Street financiers.

"Why don't men debut? "

Men don't "come out", as they aren't kept in beforehand!

Well, today's girls aren't kept in either, but the whole debutante thing is a holdover tradition from the times when boys might be sent to the best schools to mingle with future movers and shakers and hopefully to get to know their families, while girls would be kept home and taught by a governess, or sent to convent schools.

[quote]Men don't "come out",

Oh, yes they do, honey...

R77

Whole idea surrounding debutantes comes from old Europe where young (unmarried) girls were locked up in convents, nursery, or wherever and kept away from men/boys. At a certain age of maturity a girl was fetched out of said convents or otherwise "brought out" of that sheltered environment and put basically up on marriage market. Basically young girls were kept virginal (in theory) until the family was ready to capitalize on that asset, among others.

This system largely replaced the old (or existed along side) where girls and boys were often betrothed not long after birth, and or surely before one of both left the nurses' charge.

By early to middle 20th century whole idea of "coming out" was absurd to most. You had girls who didn't grow up locked away and thus already knew society. They went to country clubs, dances, etc.... and thus already knew many if not all of the same people they were supposedly "presented" to a a deb ball. The other aspect of it (marriage market) began dwindling even by early in last century.

For European countries with monarchies it wasn't so much as being a debutante, but presented at court. This was open to both young men (levees) and girls (court presentation). Once a girl was "presented" she was deemed "out", and officially on the marriage market, that is if a groom hadn't been assigned already.

There never was nor is the sort of pressure on young men to marry as with girls. After being presented/debut a girl didn't have very long to catch a husband. In 1800's through early 1900's (say prior to WWII) , a girl was deemed a spinster, damaged goods or whatever if she hadn't married by age 21. Once being launched if a girl didn't find a husband in her year, she only had one or maybe to more (the latter was pushing things), before things got desperate.

Guess long story short is that males were never chattel way females were often considered. Until laws were changed (not until well into 20th century) females were chattel. Young girls belonged their fathers (or other legal guardian), and married women to their husbands.

Part of the whole presentation/debut thing was also quiet whispers or other announcements of how much a young girl would bring to her marriage (dowry). In days when everything a female had or was expected to get belonged by law to her husband, you can see where this went.

While young girls were fluttering around in white at balls, single men (of all ages) were taking notes and running up the sums. Mothers of the latter were also making their own calculations.

R86

You just know where this is going; sooner or later parents of a trans are going to have their "daughter" apply to the IDB, and all heck is going to break lose.

Will be interesting to see just how "woke" the progressive liberal democrats of UES or wherever are then........

*RIP* Lester Lanin, Bandleader

Lester Lanin orchestra is still around however.

Let's play how many meanings there are for "my resources are limited"

1- My trustee won't give me anymore money until my allowance next month.

2- My parents won't give me anymore money until my next allowance.

3- The market has been really bad of late and Daddy has said we need to cut back....

R91...

Will you buy this tomorrow OP?

Why did it ever matter? Who would want to be Jackie Onasis? So you have a lake in Central Park named after you? Your husband is still fucking Marilyn Monroe. You're just an arm piece for polite society. Fuck that shit.

"Why did it ever matter? Who would want to be Jackie Onasis?"

Oh, the world is still full of women who'd rather marry money than work for it. Hell, the gay world is full of gold-diggers who'd also rather marry money than work for it, but the sad fact is that women have a rather easier time marrying up. Not that it's ever easy to beat out the competition for the few rich men out there, but there are just more straight men than gay, and straight men are more likely to feel the need for marriage. AND breeding the old-fashioned way.

But I don't think modern debutante balls give a girl any advantage, if she wants to take up gold-digging and husband-hunting. The only men who go to debutante balls looking for a wife these days, are the divorced fathers of the debs.

She made her debut in white and peach colors. Gorgeous!

R96

JBKO like her mother came from a different world. For high born women both in Europe and North America they were trained for one career; marriage and to marry well. Yes, many did attend college and some were actually quite clever; but the 20th century while slightly better than 19th didn't really open up many high paying careers for any woman. This regardless of her name or family.

Hundreds of girls from our very best families went to Seven Sisters only to end up after graduation Miss. Caroline Bender in film "the Best of Everything". They got jobs a assistant editors or whatever in literary, fashion, or other industries. That or they went into non profits such as museums (think Charlotte in SATC), and so on. The more noble minded went into nursing or perhaps teaching (primary or high school).

All of these jobs paid pathetic wages but girls weren't expected to remain long; idea was to get married soon after graduating college and hopefully that would be the end of their working careers. Some nurses continued working to put their husbands through med school, and or until he completed his internship or residency. but soon afterwards the guy was moving up and she could "retire" from the world.

For girls who aged into women that didn't marry (career girls/business women) there is the role model of Ms. Amanda Farrow from same picture. Those women may have had great jobs on paper, but none were paid nearly what the lowest man in similar job got.

JB like her mother and other females of her class was "trained" or whatever to be chatelaines; that was their job so to speak. To run one or more great houses, supervise the education of children, promote and support their husbands and children in various ways largely via use of those houses, etc....

Jack Kennedy's family were shanty lace curtain Irish, and he knew it. That is why there was such a push to get JFK married to the beautiful French Catholic (but comparatively poor) Jacqueline Bouvier. By all accounts Jack Kennedy got his money's worth.

Yes, JBKO went back to her "roots" with a job as editor in publishing. But again like many women who hold such jobs then and now she didn't need to work. Jackie Onasis got 25 million out of Christina Onassis, she wasn't living on Fifth Avenue on an editor's salary, or even pension from JFK's time in WH.

If you haven't already seen it, watch "The Reluctant Debutante" starring Rex Harrison, Sandra Dee, Angela Lansbury, John Saxon and the delicious Kay Kendall. Directed by Vincente Minelli. (Pierre Balmain did the wardrobe for both Kendall and Lansbury.

Briefly... Sandra Dee is the American daughter ( from Rex Harrison's first marriage ) who arrives in London to visit her father and stepmother Kay Kendall. To compete with her friend Lansbury, Kendall informs her that she and her husband have arranged for Dee to make her debut in the upcoming season.

I've seen that film, R100, and it's just a bit of old-fashioned froth, but if you like that sort of thing, it's worth 90 min of downtime just to see Harrison and Kendall together.

But earlier on this thread I timed the decline of the debutant to the 1940s-1960s, and this silly film actually backs me up. The "reluctant debutante" of the title isn't a beatnik or a braniac or anything out of the ordinary for a teenager of her class and era, but she thinks the debutante circuit is pointless and old-fashioned and doesn't want to get serious about husband-hunting at 17. Because yeah, in 1958, girls may have still married in their teens without pregnancy or scandal involved, but they were starting to be aware of other possibilities.

I know we are specifically talking about AMERICAN debutantes, but I think those on this thread would also probably enjoy this documentary about the British debs in the thirties. It has the always delightful Deborah Mitford in it and interviews a lot of other characters.

bump

My friend in college, a real wealthy Georgia belle, was a debutante at some ball in New York City in 1985.

I've always wanted to see "Public Deb #1" (1940), but I've never been able to find it. Sounds fun.

In 1987, I saw the "Cotton Palace Pageant" in Waco, Texas. Not a competition, but tons of debs. Consoled myself with the many hot escorts.

Debbie is a cunt.

Fun thread from a few years ago about the International Debutante Ball

Interesting thread. I never knew such things existed. Makes me feel bad for rich kids, so many rules, so much “tradition” and expectation. All sounds horrible to me but makes for great reading.

I know nothing about this video, except that it looks like a southern debutant party.

On a related matter, I believe in the Crown, there is a scene where Elizabeth R and the Duke of Edinburgh sit and are introduced in series, to all the young girls who were coming out in that ceremony. Probably just the noble families, In 1958 Elizabeth II announced she would no longer have debutantes presented at court. In the 1960s and 1970s the participation in debutante balls around the United Kingdom dropped, leading to the Queen Charlotte's Ball folding in 1976.

I don’t know what the British proms are, but’s one of the videos appears to be a series of concerts filled with the upper class, where they might mingle. Anyone know more?

They are just concerts and nothing to do with US proms or this debutante stuff.

I didn't need to be a debutante to snag myself a prince, you bunch of pathetic bitches. NOW CURTSY to me.

I knew some, and my father escorted a few. All I remember was that they were affiliated with country clubs somehow. It seemed as if they had striving, nouveau riche parents trying to put on the dog. I’m still not sure about the process of it, but I do know the families of the ones I knew weren’t particularly grand or notable in any way. They had enough money to pay for a ball though, which was apparently pretty expensive. Seemed pathetic and meaningless in the 1980’s.

Mexicans call them quinceaneras.

Forgive me for asking but aren’t 99% of Americans with a few dollars “nouveau riche”? How many generations back do you go to establish a notable family as opposed to new money?

My skank daughter--who I didn't kill, by the way-- ended it all.

Presentations at court ended for many reasons, but IIRC chief among them HM was informed hard up noble ladies were accepting cash in exchange for introductions.

Under then long held rules in order to be presented at court the person sponsoring must have been as well. This obviously was meant as a limiting factor as only other royalty, nobility and select others had been presented.

For the belle monde of British society a girl coming out went hand in hand with her being presented at court. Once duly presented and having made her debut a girl could move easily in society and the all important marriage market. That was what all this nonsense was truly about, and a young girl didn't have much time between presentation/debut and hitting the wall of spinsterhood either. After two or maybe three seasons if a girl wasn't yet married it was shame making all way around. Even if later on a suitor did declare himself, some families forced a girl to decline feeling the marriage would smack of desperation which was just as shameful.

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

R116

There is an old joke or something that goes if you look back just one or maybe three generations most Americans who consider themselves "society" were middle class nobodies or maybe even dirt poor.

Since the United States doesn't have a titled nobility, and it is a place where people make something of themselves, nearly every family or whatever who claims some sort of status once was "nouveau riche".

Mrs. Astor thought the Vanderbilts were "nouveau riche". Joe Kennedy, Sr. was a whore-monger, bootlegger and a few other unsavory things before he pushed his family up from shanty lace curtain Irish to some sort of American aristocracy.

Families may sniff at "nouveau riche", but they sure as hell will marry daughters of those families, or their sons into those families if there is money on the table.

Anderson Cooper may be a Vanderbilt, but bulk of his fortune is all "new", earned by the man himself, not inherited.

So I have to look up shanty lace curtain Irish and laughed to see that lace curtain meant well off vs the poor shanty. Growing up in England lace curtains were a symbol of the working class! The middle class had moved on to blinds!

Now we have......Purity Balls!!!!!

R11 - what a fascinating peek into Brenda Frazier! I want a limited series about her, asap. I love older Brenda's look and attitude (as it comes through in photos). I think I might have a budding obsession.

Well, smell HER! R22

[quote] Cornelia Guest is the real thing; not like these jumped up daughters of nobodies one sees at balls nowadays

Cornelia Guest was considered basically a novelty in the 1980s--society trash. She was like Paris Hilton, only much less famous--she was affiliated with a famous society name (C. Z. Guest really was a big deal in high society back in her own day), but she fucked men like Sylvester Stallone and hung out with Andy Warhol and people of the 80s 'famous for being famous" crowd and the art world that Tama Janowitz used to write about. She was not considered top drawer, although her mother was.

[quote] How many generations back do you go to establish a notable family as opposed to new money?

The arbiters of such things used to say three generations, sometimes four, depending on how the fortune was made.

In America, nouveau riche generally are overly materialistic and don’t read books.

All I can think about is that scene in the latest Borat. Oh my!

It's kind of like how finishing school was seen in the 1970s. They were only considered for women who aren't intelligent enough to go to university and are now dominated by Chinese who want to seem "classy".

When I was a teen in the 1990s, my Australian cousin made her debut to further her father's interests in the Rotary Club. She was presented to her local MP - Pauline Hanson!

[quote] In America, nouveau riche generally are overly materialistic and don’t read books.

Are all you people who are fascinated by this stuff old money yourselves or are you just interested in looking in from the outside?

Quinceaneras are big down here in Texas. As one Mexican comedian said "it's a Mexican's way of saying my daughter's pussy is open for business, come and take her off my hands". Even the poorest of families will save up for this elaborate wedding like occasion. If the family can't quite afford it it's quite common for friends, employers, etc to chip in some funds too. The girls have attendants and each attendant has an escort, limos......

Is the Quinceanera just cultural now or do the families actually still believe in the traditional meaning? Asking because Holy Communions are huge in my Irish Catholic circle. Thousands spent on them but nobody believes any of the religious side, they have become completely cultural.

Probably cultural R132. All I know is that some of the dresses are hilariously over the top and ugly. Think Big Fat Gypsy wedding type gowns. I think the wealthier Mexicans have more tasteful gowns but the poorer ones..yikes.

Woweewowee!

We've been down this road before; but still cannot let this conversation go without mentioning 1990 film "Metropolitan) .

Set NYC the film was a dry, comic and some say dark look at the last serious days of the debutante ball scene.

Let's cha, cha, cha!

Rick breaks things down....

I went to one "Coming Out" Ball in 1982 at the end of my freshman year in college. It was at the Plaza Hotel, and it was for the youngest daughter of long-time family friends. We were the same age, and we grew up spending our summers together. I went with my parents. There was a renewed interest in them at the time. It was formal -- dinner and dancing to a Lester Lanin Orchestra. Her family were well-to-do Irish Catholics. But big throwback to a time long since past...introducing your marriageable daughters to society.

Still friends with her. She's not snooty in the least -- wasn't then either

They are America's answer to the quinceaneria.

R25- She shed 25 pounds in 2 weeks by drinking two pots of coffee per day. Chubster no more!

Terpsichorean in NC & St. Cecelia's in SC are the only two that count in the Carolina's

My brothers ex-girlfriends mother got bombed on valium and vodka at the Terpsichorean Ball and told her daughter she hated her and wished she had never been born. Meanwhile, her father was doing lines of coke with her escort/date (yes my brother).

When girls became fat.

R78- The black balls are a totally different thing altogether. It's interesting how you'll see black girls at white balls but never a white girl at a black ball. Though all the black ball girls pass the paper bag test.

R31- The Vienna Opera Ball is open to anyone. It's the same as le Bal des Débutantes in Paris, France- new money, pay to play. No clout at all, just a way for new money to present their daughters in couture. Boring as F. Yes, I've been.

The International in NY and a few select balls around the country (St. Cecilia, Idlewild) are the only ones that matter. You can't apply, membership is passed down from father to son and the societies are ran by men. If a daughter marries a man who isn't a member, her future daughter will not deb. In Charleston you can easily see who's who by what they're doing on a certain evening in December.

R141- It's ST. CECILIA.

R79- Cornelia is lovely.

I simply cannot stand another day undecided about my debutante gown.

R31

You ain't said nothing but a word....