WWI

Those trenches and the use of mustard gas sounded ghastly.

Do you learn about any of that at school in the US? I recall not hearing a single thing about any of the Americas after their "discovery" in my history classes. Of course, all the minutiae of WWI and WWII was drilled into us. It was all Europe all the time, honey. 😒

I've always been fascinated by WWI. Something about the sheer futility of it is romantic, in a way. It represented the dying of the old world and the birth of the modern era (for more on that, I recommend reading Barbara Tuchman's "The Proud Tower.")

Plus, the Red Baron was so hot.

WWI was quickly glossed over in my [public] high school. They went much more in depth about World War II.

So, what happened to Schlieffen when his plan failed?

Hmm?

R5, he was dead before the war ended. Germany had been planning this war for a looooong time.

Did the War have much of a link with the spread of the Spanish Flu epidemic?

The Germans beat the French in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. The Germans crowned their first emperor in Versailles. That had to be a great insult to the French. I would not be surprised if the reason that WWI peace talks took place in Versailles was in response to that insult, almost 50 years later. Anyway, the Germans probably expected to beat the French again.

Belgians are just picky bottoms. If Germany was serious they should have bought them dinner along with a few glasses of wine. Viola, a free pass

WWI was caused by a disability and child abuse!

We all know about the crushing restitution that was forced upon Germany after WW1. I once read something to the effect that war-restitution was assessed after the earlier Napoleonic wars; earlier Franco-Prussian war; and WWI, alternating back and forth.

"Did the War have much of a link with the spread of the Spanish Flu epidemic? "

Yes, the mobilization of soldiers spread the deadly influenza of the 1910s all over the fucking world.

I read a book called "The Great Influenza" about the epidemic, and yes, the first known outbreak was at an American army camp. Soldiers were crowded together in army camps and moved from one camp to another, and in those conditions they were easily able to spread the disease from soldier to soldier, and when the soldiers were mobilized, they spread the influenza to other US states and then to Europe and beyond. Tens of millions died, nobody knows how high the death count was, but it might be as high as 50 million overall. Amazing that it's been largely forgotten, because the influenza viruses are still out there, mutating away into forms that may or may not be that deadly.

Here’s Berlin’s victory tower, built 1873. It commemorates various German wartime victories. The French wanted to demolish it after WWII, but the British and Americans stopped that.

The French used a rail car to accept the formal surrender of German in WWI. Hitler used that very same rail car to accept the French surrender in WWII. BURN! He brought the rail car to Berlin as a museum, but I understand that the Germans destroyed it towards the end of WWII.

Col. Charles Stanton made the memorable statement, after the US entered the war on the side of the UK, France and Russia, and upon arriving in Paris, he stated, “Layfette, we are here”, in reference to the French soldier who helped the US obtain independence 150 years earlier.

It should make for a great movie:

The Crown prince of Austria-Hungry is assassinated by an anarchist.

The Czar, Kaiser, and King of the UK were all closely related.

They all miscalculated and failed to realize that the other countries would not back down.

There were riots in the UK, Paris, Berlin, Italy, Austria, and Russia during the war.

The combatants were all running out of men to fight, a whole generation, right when the Americans entered the war.

The war was so expensive, it almost bankrupted the UK. It lead to tax reforms there.

The war resulted in the termination of the royal houses of Austria-Hungry, Germany, Turkey, and Russia.

I haven’t yet read “The Sleepwalkers”, which is about how the rival ruling houses sleepwalked their way into war. It was a bestseller from a few years ago.

My gay Great Uncle served in France. I think it’s cool that I met at least two veterans of WWI.

Some day, they will teach WWI and WWII as a single war with a long intermission.

Here’s my Dad during WWI, 1919. He’s wearing a sailor’s uniform, with an adorable sun hat.

Page 2 is my Dad during WWII. He’s still wearing a sailor’s uniform. No sun hat, though.

In the 1970s, my parents started serving sauerbraten for holidays instead of turkey. My sense is that during one of the wars, my family had ceased any German association, but by 1970s, felt it was ok to go back to German ethnic foods.

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast has a great series of episodes on WWI.

R19, did your dad have any moose stuffed toys or, later, any moose friends?

No, R22, I don’t think so. Not many moose in Brooklyn. But he was his Gay Uncle’s best man when he married.

When my sister’s son was just a baby, but not interested in sports, my Dad made a point of telling my sister that “some boys like art”. Haha. Turns out, he’s straight, but it was funny.

My grandpa Otto fled Germany during WWI and came to Boston. I think it was to avoid the German draft. Then the US entered the war, and he was stuck here until 1920. He had another grandson in Germany, who died in WWI. It amuses me that he and I are both Otto’s grandchildren, but he died so very long ago. It was like another world.

PBS did a wonderful two-part documentary called "The Great War" last year. It's worth watching.

The most stupid and baffling and mind-boggling war of all time. One good thing that came out of it was the collapse of most of the royal dynasties in Europe.

I did a whole history PowerPoint on it for class but I just don't get why it all happened. Yeah, yeah Franz Ferdinand and Serbia and Austro Hungary Empire. I just don't get why. I figure it was a whole bunch of competitive powers struggling for domination. They hadn't learned how to coexist like that bumper sticker encourages.

Are there any good historical fiction novels that delve into it and explain what people were thinking and feeling at that time?

So who ended up winning WWI? They had trench warfare in Belgium and the Brits came then what?

R27, in some respects, the Austrian Empire used the assassination as an excuse to invade Serbia. Serbia was a neighboring power and rival. It was at a time when European countries were still nibbling at the bordering parts of other countries. It’s a foreign idea to us today.

Although I haven’t read it yet, you should consider reading “The Sleepwalkers”, on how the countries sleptwalked into war.

Incidentally, the US Civil War was the same thing. Both sides thought it would be over after the first initial battles, not drag on for 4 years.

The YouTube Channel “The Great War” is extremely comprehensive (literally week by week coverage of the war for 4 years plus loads of extra videos with general background information).

For historical fiction - JRR Tolkien’s grandson Simon wrote a book called “No Man’s Land” which may interest you. There are also the classic Regeneration trilogy books by Pat Barker.

If anyone wants some contemporary viewpoints that are available via the internet e.g. on Gutenberg, there is “Now It Can be Told” by Philip Gibbs (a journalist, iirc), and The First Hundred Thousand by Ian Hay, and the Wipers Times newspaper compilation as well (which has been adapted into a film).

R28, everybody lost, except the US, which made a lot of money selling arms to Europe.

Reread R16.

It planted the seeds for WWII. The Germans stacked their negotiating team with Jews because they though it made them look smart and serious. After they got stuck making excessive concessions, the Germans talked about the “stab in the back from the Jews”. They didn’t understand how the settlement was so damning, when the allies hadn’t occupied any significant German territory. All the major powers except the US were financially ruined.

The car in which it all started. If you look closely, you can see a bullet hole towards the front, and another, ringed with white, toward the back.

Apparently the Kaiser had a lifetime inferiority complex with his cousin, the King of England. Also, Germany felt cheated that they didn’t have more colonies at a time when other European powers were competing for prestige.

This upcoming fictional WWI film, I believe it's titled "1917" looks like some Michael Bey crap.

[quote] It was at a time when European countries were still nibbling at the bordering parts of other countries. It’s a foreign idea to us today.

Hello!

Do you learn about any of that at school in the US?

No dear. I remember it.

Pershing wanted to push into Germany. He felt unless you really demonstrated to the Germans they were defeated, they’d be back at it in 20 years. It took 21.

Have any of you WWI buffs seen this recent Peter Jackson film? I worried that it would look like a computer game, but it was very well done. Seeing the footage in color really did make an enormous impact.

Has anyone seen my parrot?

Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman is a great history of how it devolved into a years-long horror show. Modern technology and trench warfare contributed to the brutality. Though the American Civil War was a prelude - WWI was the culmination of modern technology and societal views into war.

Proud Tower - also by Tuchman - is a great explanation of the forces that lead to WWI. Reading it now is scary - almost ALL of the issues that lead to WWI are happening again.

R40, my sense is also that, at least in Britain’s case, they were still filling the officer corps with members of the aristocracy and not basing it on qualifications.

Also, they were using antiquated techniques for fighting, which had not been revised to account for modern technology. For example, sending a large number of men “over the top” to storm the enemy’s line in the era of machine guns and barbed wire obstacles seems pretty dumb. And if the first wave failed, they’d just send another wave. They weren’t adapting to the new technology. That’s how the British could lose 20,000 men in the initial attack in the battle of the Somme. It was the bloodiest day in. The history of the British Army.

True R41 - it’s weird that trenches were a “modern” invention but apparently it was one of many changes that required a different method of war strategizing. Chemicals, tanks, machine guns and to some extent airplanes (used mainly for surveillance at first) were big game changers.

Within 30 years modern technology developed war technology at lightning speed - resulting in the atomic bomb. Only a fragile morality and tenuous logic has kept us from an even worse WWIII.

When an armistice was agreed upon, it was decided not to take place immediately. It was to start at 11, leaving a number of hours remaining before the armistice. Some commanders stood down and waited it out, until the official armistice began.

Other commanders, including American commanders, wanted to use the time to better position their troops and claim some glory for themselves. The Germans didn’t want to fight, but did so when attacked. After the war, grieving American families forced Congress to have hearings about the stupid American commanders who got their loved ones killed completely unnecessarily.

R38, that film was brilliant. I saw its at a screening last year, and they had an after feature talking about how it all was done. They had lip readers, several different ones, come in to consult on what the people in the footage were actually saying, and then had actors read the words to match the film clips. I think they whole thing took something like four or five years.

Here’s 8 minutes at the end of the war.

My grandfather was WW2. I find this a very interesting thread and at same time embarrassed that I don’t feel strong enough in my understanding to opine here.

So, thank you to all contributors for their thoughts and suggestions for additional info. I will look into these!

Please don’t let this thread die!

R46, it will die on the 11th minute of the 11th hour of the 11th day.

I feel silly that one of the first things the mention of WWI conjures up in my mind is Sir Ian McKellen's turn as James Whale in "Gods and Monsters." That notorious WWI gas mask scene with Brendan Fraser....

R46, I wonder, are you conflating WWI with WWII, or are you interested in both? They were a generation apart.

The political world changed completely between the two. In simple terms, WWI had kings and empires, WWII had political groups like commies, fascists, democracies.

WWI had old technology and the military included biplanes, blimps, horses, mules, poison gas, trenches, battleships, stalemate. WWII had all that, but also advanced fighters and bombers, aircraft carriers, blitzkrieg, tanks, mechanized warfare, trains, eventually, A-bombs.

WWI was noted for massive levels of battlefield deaths, in the tens of thousands over a period of days. Europe was literally running out of young men to kill when the US entered the war. WWII was noted for its genocide and brutality of the fascist and commie fighters towards combatants and civilians.

WWII had the most interesting leaders, Hitler, Mussolini (not affiliated with Mooselini), Hiro-Hito, FDR, Churchill, Stalin, DeGaulle. Also Ike, Patton, Montgomery, my fav MacArthur, Rommel, Marshal Zhukov, Nimitz.

Here’s an interesting fact about the WWII Germans leaders: they all hated each other. The political leaders were all competing with and sabotaging each other. The military leaders were the same. One prominent German admiral and general so hated each other that they refused to work with each other, even on their combined responsibly of defending the German front. If the German leadership had been as capable as the Americans, they might have win the war.

Things were better under the Kaiser.

When I was a kid with a paper route (remember those?) in the 1970s, I had two WWI vets on my route. One had been gassed in some battle. His eyes and breathing were still very poor 60 years later. The other was a fat, short round man with a beard. He looked like Santa. He often sat on his porch reading or chatting with neighbors. He wore a polished brass belt buckle with a crown and the words, "Gott Mit Uns". I asked him where he got such a thing and he told me his story. He looked much too young to be a WWI vet. One day he showed me a long-barreled Luger he "captured". Woof. There was another old dude I rode the bus with from time to time in the early 80s. He was very old but still working. Security guard at a museum. He fought for the Kaiser. He was Jewish and a total fucking sweetheart. Very smart. Brings a smile to my face thinking about him. My love of history keeps my life interesting. I'm never bored.

"Are there any good historical fiction novels that delve into it and explain what people were thinking and feeling at that time?"

R27 - Not fiction but Robert Massie's Dreadnought is excellent.

"Apparently the Kaiser had a lifetime inferiority complex with his cousin, the King of England. "

R33 - It was his uncle Edward VII with regards to the Kaiser's inferiority complex not George V.

Most of Europe's big wars (Thirty Years War, WW1, WW2) were, in a sense, what to do about Germany? And WW2 answered it - raze it.

Germany came late to the game of imperialism and asked "Where's our cut?" which of course had serious consequences. 'Twas ever thus, giftedness and entitlement mixed with an inferiority complex -- which we in the US would do well to remember.

The fighter pilots of WWI were thought of as incredibly glamorous at the time and were lauded as heroes, but the fact is... the fighter pilot of WWI had an average life expectance of THREE WEEKS, once they went into combat. Because they were going up there in flimsy little planes made of wood and canvas, and facing real bullets. And BTW that was another difference between WWI and WWII, in WWII the planes were actually useful! By then, they were much more likely to get enemies killed than their own pilots.

The famous "Flying Aces" of WWI, like the "Red Baron" Richtofen and Eddie Rickenbacher, were the rare guys who managed to stay alive up there.

When did the last WWI vet pass?

Per Wikipedia, r57:

The last living veteran of World War I was Florence Green. She was a British woman who served in the Allied armed forces, and who died on 4 February 2012, aged 110.[1] The last veteran who served in combat was Claude Choules. He served in the British Royal Navy (and later the Royal Australian Navy) and died 5 May 2011, aged 110.[2] The last veteran who served in the trenches was Harry Patch who died on 25 July 2009, aged 111. The last Central Powers veteran was Franz Künstler from Austria-Hungary. He died on 27 May 2008 at the age of 107.

The last surviving US veteran of WW1 was Frank Buckles, born in 1901 and died in Feb, 2011.

[quote] Some day, they will teach WWI and WWII as a single war with a long intermission.

That's close to how actual historians think of the war today. The period in between is called the interwar period. But as long as there are fat white guy military buffs, Americans will obsess over WWII.

There were serious mutinies in the French and Italian armies, maybe others. As well, there were riots in Germany, and revolution in Russia. There was upheaval in Austria that pointed towards the end of their monarchy, though I think it ended after the war. Four empires ended:

Austria

Germany

Russia

Turkey

World War I was really the beginning of the modern world.

USA da BEST!!!

Back to back World War Champions!

[quote] The Czar, Kaiser, and King of the UK were all closely related.

Yes. Same with a lot of the royalty of Europe then. Mostly via Queen Victoria and all her kids. The idea was it would prevent war. Funny how that worked out.

R49, no I’m not conflating the two. Personally well aware, in addition to what my WW2 grandfather would share.

He personally observed the change as a child (much as I have during 70/80’s). As we all know: one thing leads to another.... Makes me now wonder the delta between Persian Gulf One....etc....and 9/11.

Amazing that the last WWI veteran only died in 2012.

The rapid technological and social changes were a major factor in the violence and duration of the war. A lot of the same forces that existed before WWI are present now - including raging debates and violent terrorist actions between socialism, monarchy /dictatorship, anarchy, racism. Scary.

R2, in my schools, we were taught a little about the buildup to World War I, a little more about the war 1914-1916, and a little more still about the US involvement in 1917-18, but it all sort of gets lost because the only war most Americans know anything about or are interested in is World War II. WWI fades like the moon at sunrise in the blazing glow of what was, for us, the Big War. It’s not totally unjustified. American participation and American casualties were much greater in the second war. And WWII changed everything completely, internationally and at home, for Americans. It is the watershed event of the 20th century. We live today with many of the consequences and ideas of that war, so the endless fascination with it is understandable.

Cynically, I have to add that it’s also easy to focus on a war where there was so clearly a good side, and we were on it. Most wars are not so clear-cut, but Americans keep expecting them to be, which explains many of the idiotic wars we’ve fought since then.

[quote]Four empires ended: Austria Germany Russia Turkey

Austria wasn't an empire except when it was combined with Hungary, so the name should be either Austria-Hungary or the Austro Hungarian Empire.

Turkey was an empire on its own (before the war), although its official name was The Ottoman Empire.

[quote] Turkey was an empire on its own (before the war), although its official name was The Ottoman Empire.

What genius in Turkey decided that "Turkey" was an cooler name than "Ottoman Empire".

Isn't it pretty weird that there was a giant war?

It was idiotic.

My grandfather fought in WWI. He was a USMC rifleman. Sadly I never met him because he died at the age of 58, before I was born.