Why are Catholics more rebellious than other Christian demoninations?

In one of his novels, Gore Vidal has a character state that they prefer to visit the Catholic countries of Europe rather than Protestant ones while abroad, as the Catholic ones are the least Christian.

And I mean come on, Catholic school boys are the best. I was one, after all....

Catholicism doesn't encourage its parishioners to read the Bible or be scholarly, except for Catechism, before you're baptized. It's all about the ritual. You go to confession, mass, take communion, sins are forgiven, blammo. Nothing to worry about. Lather , rinse, repeat until next week or the next mass...

[quote]Every Catholic I've ever known has been a pathological rule breaker, at least at some point in their lives—they were always the ones smoking, drinking, doing drugs, and having sex, and they weirdly seemed to be[bold] the most chill, non-judgmental sect of Christians[/bold] I've known

Catholics non-judgmental? You need to get out and meet more Catholics.

As someone who grew up Catholic, quoting scripture and talking about Jesus is uncommon, unlike some of those Protestant sects.

The Catholic Church is one of the oldest institutions on the face of the planet. You don’t exist that long by hounding people over trivial things like drinking and smoking. That’s not considered sinful activity. And American Catholics are their own breed when it comes to sex. Most of them simply ignore the Church’s teachings about birth control, etc.

My mom's entire side of the family is Irish/Ukrainian Catholic, R3, and I also went to a Jesuit university—I know plenty of Catholics, and that is my legitimate experience with them. They are far more laidback than the holy-rolling Baptists or the Pentecostals who speak in tongues, and were also far more accepting of my being gay than Protestants I've known. I am simply wondering why the Catholics tend to be the rebellious ones of the lot. My mom was raised Catholic and was groomed by her grandmother to be a nun, but she went off the rails very quickly as a teenager. She still considers herself a Catholic, but she is essentially what people refer to as "cafeteria Catholic," and is otherwise a progressive-minded person. My father is a diehard agnostic, so I was raised irreligious.

Protestants believe in "Measured Merriment" Catholics believe in cutting loose and repenting later.

Al of the people with Catholic damage will kill me for saying this, but Catholics are truly the most intellectual of all Christian denominations. The Jesuits are highly-regarded thinkers and educators for a good reason—questioning authority and thinking for oneself is a major Jesuit tenet, as ironic as that may sound. Catholics also tend not to take the Bible at face value, and scripture is actually studied rather than mindlessly absorbed. I think this intellectual approach to the religion breeds skepticism and rebellion. Some people leave the church, while others go through that rebellion and eventually return.

It all depends. Catholics are not all the same. American Catholics of Irish descent can be quite judgmental, whereas those of Italian, Spanish, or Latin American descent are much more laidback and anti-clerical. As my Italian great-grandmother (a deeply religious woman) said about priests, "their hearts are as black as their cassocks."

As for priests, well the Jesuits educated me. I know quite a few who accept LGBT people and are supportive of us. They cannot acknowledge marriage equality, but they are supportive of it nonetheless.

In the parishes, well, the more well-educated the priest is, the more likely he's supportive. Unfortunately, the ones they are attracting these days tend to be very conservative. It's as if Vatican II never occurred, and they are not old enough to remember the Latin Mass.

There's always been a wide gulf between the official church and the popular one.

I still practice it, because I believe the core doctrine like the Real Presence, love thy neighbor as thyself, welcoming the stranger, forgiveness, and redemption. I ignore the pelvic issues. Follow my informed conscience (a Catholic thing). It's difficult at times, but then I don't think faith is supposed to be easy. Really pissed off that the bishops in this country aren't speaking out about the policies of the racist, sexist, irresponsible imbecile in the White House. There are a few exceptions...Cardinal Tobin of Newark.

Change is coming. The official church will eventually develop greater understanding of human sexuality. You can see it from the theologians and the gradual recognition from bishops around the world. I won't see it in my lifetime, though.

I knew plenty of Jack Mormons in my youth who went absolutely wild when they hit their teenage years.

Really, R10? I grew up around many Mormons and have some extended family who are Mormon, and all of them have remained straightlaced images of perfection (or at least they're impeccable at keeping up appearances). All proper, polite, wholesome, and dedicated to LDS activities. They never curse, always smiling; the men go off on their mission trips, and the women stay home trading recipes with other LDS moms in their suburban backyards. The Mormons I knew were always so innocent. The Catholics were a disaster by comparison.

[quote]American Catholics of Irish descent can be quite judgmental.

I was indoctrinated by Irish Catholic nuns from Boston. Nastiest fucking bitches on the planet. My mother made us go to the local Catholic Indoctrination Center every morning for ten years because they ran such a number on her, she [italic]knew[/italic] she would burn in hell for the rest of time if she failed to do so.

Sister Mary Consuelo, of whom Rep. Bob Bauman always reminded me, lookswise, told us the night before mischief night in fourth grade that if we were going to soap cars and such, we should "do it in the Jewish neighborhood." Not only did I recognize that for the hateful tract it was, I lived in the neighborhood in question.

I resigned from Catholicism at that moment, though my mother continued to send my body to the Catholic Indoctrination Center until tenth grade, at which point my father grew a pair and my brother and I were allowed to go to public school.

I spit on the evil known as Catholicism.

it's a cult, nothing more.......

^^ Another completely un-nuanced response from the "religions are CULTS!" DL troll

I always smugly think that the priests in the church are better than the other “clergy” from other sects.

The priests actually go to universities and are highly educated in many subjects.

Any asshole can call himself a minister or a preacher or whatever those horrid televangicals call themselves.

The Bible consists of the "Law" and "Gospel" . Catholics appear to dwell on the "Law" part. Protestants dwell on the "Gospel". Lutherans have the best balance of "Law" and "Gospel"

I think it's the strict schooling. Catholics who did not "survive" Catholic School seem far less rebellious. There are similar parallels with other denominations who matriculated at harsh boarding schools, or military academies. When they're out, they truly value their freedom. A friend's mum was once asked incredulously "How could you marry a Catholic?" She said she grew up Baptist, and loved the thrill of being allowed to drink, smoke, and dance! They do throw great parties.

The Catholic church is the one and only true Christian church. All the others are illegitimate spinoffs, not real churchs.

That's not being smug R15, that's just calling it as you see it. Priests are required to have undergraduate degrees at the least, and many have post-graduate degrees--they are educated people. As far as the holy-rolling, gay-bashing "ministers" who operate churches out of former K-Mart buildings go, few have any higher education, and if they do, it's probably from DeVry or University of Phoenix.

The various Protestant Denominations are descendants, more or less, of Catholicism. Catholicism, on the other hand, has its origins in Classical Rome: a world full of male and female Gods and Goddesses, magic spells, exotic cults and slavery. The Church sanitized many of the Gods and heroes, but didn't get rid of them altogether (ie. Hercules inspired Saint Christopher). The Protestant kids use to mock us Catholics for worshiping the Pope, and for the cult of Mary. We don't worship the Pope. But, like it or not, the Church is sort of a monarchy, not a democracy. It's simply a different viewpoint. And yes, I've gotten drunk, smoked, gambled and gotten myself arrested. But I'm not mean. I treat other religions with respect, But it would be silly to pretend I'm anything other than what I am.

It’s because the Catholics believe you can be absolved of any and all sins just by going to confession and doing a pittance penance like “Hail Marys.”

Conservative Protestant sects aren’t so forgiving. They emerged in protest of Catholic corruption, where the Pope and his pervert priests would sell indulgences and sacraments.

Once you sin in Mormonism and other sects, it goes on your permanent record. You can’t recover your descent toward Hell.

But Catholics get a “Get out of Hell Free Card” every week for sins as terrible as murder as long as they tell their priest.

There has always been a certain “just don’t talk about it” acceptance of sinful behavior in Catholicism I think. It was clear to me in 12 years of Catholic school that it was a massive hypocrisy. As long as you saved face and went to Church every Sunday and no one was shamed by your behavior, it’s forgiven. And the whole confession thing - as long as you confess and say a Hail Mary, the sin is gone. Pretty easy.

You do realize that all of the other Christian denominations only exist because they rebelled against the Catholic Church, don't you?

We're always forgotten in these discussions. Sigh.

"We Catholics - we do what the heart tell us and then we go to confession."

- Pa Flyte's Italian mistress from "Brideshead Revisted."

Okay, R24.

The only difference between the Papists and you guys is the Pope himself, right? You don’t believe he is the maximum religious authority on earth?

What other differences are there? I’m genuinely interested in this.

Do you party like the Catholics R24? That ought to be the question! If you do, please send my invitation to...

Matthew 23:9 - Call NO MAN father for you have but ONE Father who is in heaven

[quote]Why are Catholics more rebellious

LOL - This lack of basic understanding of the world around you is why our world is the way it is right now.

Far from defending the catholics, I'm indicting the unsophisticated mind that would come up with such a silly idea.

[quote]LOL - This lack of basic understanding of the world around you is why our world is the way it is right now.

What are you talking about, Mr. High-Horse? The "naughty Catholic schoolgirl" trope exists for a reason. In Western culture, Catholics are very much known as the "naughty" ones of the Christian denominations. If you sampled a number of Christian youth from various denominations, you'd most likely find that the kids who are smoking in the bathrooms and having premarital sex are the Catholics.

What a weird group of fanciful generalizations about Catholics.

As someone who was sent to 12 years of Catholic schools, Catholics are DEFINITELY JUDGEMENTAL and fucked up.

This sounds like an Erna thread, who as a self loathing troll has a love for all things Catholic.

What a loser.

R20 the Roman Catholic church broke off from The Church in Constantinople. The RCC changed the trinity ,later adding non-biblical events like The Assumption and The Immaculate Conception. The Eastern Orthodox Churches are much more like The original church was as opposed to The Roman Catholic is today.

A priest I know said "Chastity? All these years I thought was charity, so I've been giving it away."

Actually most Baptists I have known are as rebellious, Honky Tonk on Saturday night, church on Sunday morning. If Protestants weren’t like that, we would never have gotten the Blues or Country Music. This is the way it has always been, a struggle between our base instincts and or higher selves. Sadly too many believers of all religions try to make themselves appear perfect when they tend to be the biggest sinners and hypocrites.

R30

Evangelicals think they have the god-given right to judge other people-- they cite some passage in Revelations, I can't remember which one (and having been raised Catholic I know jack shit about the Bible). Also Catholics believe in forgiveness pretty much at any moment, so there's less pressure to "be good" than there is for Protestants, who believe that your future is predestined and you better be good or else.

A woman at work said to another "You can't judge me, only God can judge me." She replied "On earth, we judge each other by The Ten Commandments. God judges you at the Pearly Gates."

[quote]What are you talking about, Mr. High-Horse? The "naughty Catholic schoolgirl" trope exists for a reason. In Western culture, Catholics are very much known as the "naughty" ones of the Christian denominations. If you sampled a number of Christian youth from various denominations, you'd most likely find that the kids who are smoking in the bathrooms and having premarital sex are the Catholics.

While I doubt you'll understand with such a narrow view of the world, here's a very short explanation.

True, the trope exists for a reason, but you've misunderstood both the trope and the reason. The naughty caltholic school girl is no more a statement about catholics than the naughty librarian is an indictment against the Dewey Decimal System.

The catholic school girl trope is always innocence, either the corruption or loss of it. The subversion of the trope occurs when the catholic school girl is indeed naughty beneath the veneer of innocence that school girl imagery. More pointedly, catholic school girl imagery is always an "outside in" view, rather than an internal one to the girl herself.

A jehovah's witness having a lifesaving blood transfusion or a christian scientist taking a penicillin pill for that matter is more rebellious than the standard masturbatory fantasy of a catholic school girl.

The Eastern churches are less legalistic and more mystical than Catholics. That's the stereotype. The liturgy is also more beautiful, ordered but not linear. The Assumption of the Virgin is not a doctrine and not clearly defined, for instance. But something like it, the Dormition (Falling Asleep) of the Theotokos (Mother of God) is a major feast day, icons depict it. Did Mary ascend bodily into heaven? "Mmmmmm? Something happened. It's a mystery." That's the Orthodox attitude. Oddly the Roman Church used the Eastern feast to defend their more defined doctrine.

R38 except Jehovah's Witnesses rarely accept blood transfusions, and Christian Scientists typically refuse medicine, while Catholics meanwhile violate all the sins of the flesh on a regular basis. If your point is that the former is more theologically transgressive, fine, but said point does not run much further than that. Also, being a patronizing cunt about it does not make it any more convincing.

R38 = a comparative lit. PhD dropout

[quote] But Catholics get a “Get out of Hell Free Card” every week for sins as terrible as murder as long as they tell their priest.

R21, I think you also have to repent sincerely & vow not to sin again, as well as perform whatever rituals the priest tells you to (recite the rosary, etc.).

Unless there is sincere repentance absolution has no effect in both Catholic and Orthodox doctrine.

R42: Don't forget the priestly spanking. Though it seems that penance is only for virile young men....

In all seriousness, the true church is probably the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Ancient Church of the East.

This from a reformed Catholic.

My parents were raised as Catholics and they tried to raise us that way. I remember Sunday School /church when I was about 7 or 8 years old and them telling us about all these sins and how you will go to hell if you commit them, then one week they were discussing confession, and as an 8 year old, I came away with , sins are bad, but if you commit them you just go to confession and absolved

I just remember thinking, "should you really be telling us we will be absolved/forgiven for whatever we do?" They should have kept that part a secret so we'll behave.

tony blair and newt gingrich have all drank the Kool-Aid and converted to Catholicism as middle aged adults. They're really scared of going to hell and they think by converting that they will be forgiven

I saw Newt on tv defending some moral point "as a Catholic. " He still sounded like a Southern Baptist.

[quote][R38] = a comparative lit. PhD dropout

R41 -high school dropout who never got a GED.

The real weirdos are catholics like Mike Pounce who becomes an evangelical.

R24, It's difficult to be inclusive without becoming too wordy, but I think of the Eastern Rite Churches as being linked to us Catholics. Growing up, I was lucky enough to attend Greek Orthodox and Maronite Christian services. Our churches all promoted each others' festivals. I just remember, when I was a kid, the anonymous religious pamphlets that were slid over our door telling us we were going to Hell.

I think Gingrich and Blair did that more to please their wives than anything else.

While I have residual guilt after 12 years of Catholic school, there was never a lot of fire and brimstone. I didn’t find being gay overly traumatic - no worse than premarital sex and way better than abortion. It’s a long standing successful business. Got people into Church on Sunday to give money and maintain social,standing. It was broad enough to capture as many people as possible.

The whole evangelical thing in the 80s freaked us out as mainline Christians. They were a bunch of Jesus freaks. Almost felt embarrassed for them.

R51: Snot Gingrich converted because the Episcopalians allowed the ghey to marry. He went Catholic cause they bash them fags good. He'll always be the bigot from Georgia.

I was raised Catholic and went to 12 years of Catholic education. I'm maybe a A&P Catholic (Ashes and Palm Sunday, and maybe Christmas are the times you might see me in church, every other year.)

I had a rebellious streak. I was really on the edge - I don't know if my siblings did, because if so they didn't talk about it.

We take the sacraments go to mass but we know the bible is made up. They are parables. The Catholic new testament doesn't even pretend it's the actual bible. Other Christians take it literal. Catholics believe in a forgiveness. The idea is the old testament - angry punishing god. The new testament Jesus saved us and we now have someone who loves us unconditionally.

I remember having to sing this at mass - "Oh how I love Jesus, Oh how I love Jesus, Oh how I love Jesus, because he first loved me.

He loves you cuz he made ya.

Catholicism also teaches free will. Do unto others how you would like them to do unto you.

You could be a dipshit, sinning asshole but that is on you. The religion brings you the word, what you do with it is up to you.

No one gets bent out of shape who their neighbor is fucking, or aborting. You just are supposed to keep your side of the street clean.

"Are you asking my opinion about xyz?" Then they tell you what they think. If not the Catholic is not in your business.

Exactly, R54.

[quote]No one gets bent out of shape who their neighbor is fucking, or aborting. You just are supposed to keep your side of the street clean.[/quote]

Come to my lovely country where Catholic Church has real, actual power and political infuence, where abortion is forbidden and the Catholic Church is leading the anti-gay propaganda. One of my good friends has always been a devout Catholic but she was pretty great, but her devout Catholic husband is the most sanctimonious judgemental intolerant and ignorant prick I've ever had misfortune to talk to, and that includes a few American Baptists.

This certainly does not apply to all Catholics but some have told me, doesn't matter what they do, as long as they confess their sins before they die, they are golden and will get into heaven. To some of them it is all about the confession, not the crime.

I'm sorry you're surrounded by assholes, R57

I think this is a really interesting thread. I can’t quite explain it. I was raised catholic but I am now a non-denominational Evangelical Christian.

I can’t quite put it into words but there is a pure beauty in the Catholic Church that isn’t quite there with other denominations. I think it is the symbolism of some of their rituals that draws the stark contrast between sinning and salvation.

In my life I have found more value in the words of Jesus and thus my embrace of evangelical Christianity, but I will always have a fondness for the Catholic Church. It’s just not for me.

As to why it causes rebellion? Maybe it is that lover that is so flawed but who is so beautiful that you just can’t shake your sense of loyalty to it.

What are you doing here, r59?

What are any of us doing here r60?

The Great Whore of Babylon, who adorns herself in scarlet/purple - jewels and gold. Her sins are piled high into the heavens. Come out of her, my children!

[quote]Protestants, who believe that your future is predestined and you better be good or else.

That is only Calvinists, who are sadly having a moment. They are the ones, for instance, behind the conservative takeover of the Southern Baptists. The denomination, before the 1980s, was much more moderate, less legalistic and the vast majority were NOT Calvinist. They have now driven people like me and Jimmy Carter away. However, there is now a growing number of pew sitters waking up to the fact that the denomination is being changed into something they don’t recognize as Baptist. The classic SBC beliefs were that congregations were independent and free to make their own rules, and it was each Christian’s responsibility to interpret scripture and theology for themselves without relying on the clergy, and that “who-so-ever will” can seek God’s forgiveness and be saved. No one is predestined to be saved or sent to hell, it is our choice as free willed individuals. We were also taught at my traditional SBC that we cannot judge others and their salvation, that is something between them and God.

Being raised Catholic, I can say there was a lot of fire and brimstone, but not much at all during Sunday sermons. What I found about Catholic families is that there exists what I call "Competitive Catholics". As kids we'd mention a movie we saw and the other mothers would be shocked and wouldn't let there kids go. Who could have the most religious paintings around the house. And of course who was at church both Sunday and Wednesday and all the other "Days of Obligation". Alcoholism wasn't uncommon.

I’m an evangelical too, and my best friend is a very conservative Catholic. One big difference I’ve noticed is Evangelicals emphasize a personal conversion and relationship through and with Jesus Christ above all else, and believe in the Bible as the really only authority for pleasing God. My Catholic friend acknowledges Catholics don’t study the Bible enough, but says Catholics have a more holistic emphasis on the importance of Christian community. To us Protestants, it seems Catholics overemphasize the church (small “c”) and tradition over a personal conversion relationship with Jesus. I rarely hear Catholics talk about Jesus or the Bible the way even moderate Protestants do.

Is Mary kneeling in OP’s pic or is she pregnant? Can’t really tell.

There’s something odd going on. 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP, I am curious about the painting, too. What can you tell us? (That’s her knee, R66.) Those look like angels of some kind. It’s on a ceiling at the Vatican, isn’t it?

Wikipedia on angels

They are disgusting

[quote] R21: But Catholics get a “Get out of Hell Free Card” every week for sins as terrible as murder as long as they tell their priest.

You need to be contrite, R21. You need to resolve not to reoffend. So, it’s more complicated than you may think. Twice I’ve been told in confession to go away and come back again later. And I’m not out there killing people or robbing or similar.

R39:

Wikipedia: The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory".

It comes down to this, many protestant denominations consider take the Bible literally with every word taken as is. Catholics, on the other hand, approach it as you would a work of literature, open to interpretation. That's why Catholic mass is for essentially a time for priests, who are often highly educated biblical scholars, to share their interpretation with world, most of whom are not intellectually equipped to comprehend such a complex work. So when Protestants say Catholics don't read the Bible, they're right to a point. Most Catholic families have a bible in the household, but when something isn't clear, they're encouraged to approach a priest for interpretation. Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Baptists and other Protestants, on the other hand, will read passage, even if they're borderline illiterate and simplistically tell you it's wrong to eat pork or mix certain fabrics. Last week I saw this preacher claim that a woman's place is the home and quote scripture, and the audience seemed to take in every single word.

The standard line for behavior and belief among Catholics, r65, is that they are expected to use faith and reason, not one or the other. For example, rather than try to square things in the bible that don't add up (two versions of the creation myth in Genesis that can't BOTH be true), Catholics are fine about labeling them both as parables which demonstrate God as a divine being intimately concerned with his creation, mankind, and then moving on. But I agree that the version of Catholicism that you grew up with influenced a lot of aspects about your religious beliefs and behaviors. Irish Catholicism is notoriously prudish about sex, the naked body, and any aspect of sensual experience. To a certain extent, Slavic Catholics, like the Poles, are similar. However, southern Catholics, like Italians and Spanish are much less bothered by sensual experience, and don't have the same kind of body loathing.

It's entirely possible that the availability of confession gives teens the opportunity to act out in perfectly natural ways, with the notion that they won't be damned forever if they do so.

I think the Catholic church of the 60s and 70s was much less judgmental than the current Catholic church, which has been shaped by the very long tenure of John Paul II and by Benedict. JPII had a certain amount of charisma and could sell his conservative Catholic message. Benedict had zilch in that regard. But we're talking about an institution which has lost most of its credibility and many of its adherents in Europe, North America, and South America (to a lesser extent) , leaving Africa as its only region of strong growth,

Protestants emphasize formal weekly Bible study and prayer, often led by clergy or official leaders. I just don’t hear many Catholic laity talking about going to regular Bible study. Among beagle isles, weekly Bible study is just as important as Sunday service

Also, Protestants directly talk about Jesus, Father God, and the Holy Spirit a lot as part of their daily lives, whereas Catholics tend to talk a lot about the Roman Catholic Church. To many Catholics, their faith seems more cultural or social than focused on God and the Bible.

r75 You're just confirming protestants take a simplistic, unsophisticated, interpretation of the Bible leaving no room for nuance as tenets to live by. Very Handmaid's Tale. That won't do fo most Catholics. Those educated in the Jesuit system, for example, are encouraged to always question everything, including authority. Mother Teresa, for example, famously had a crisis of faith and the church, rather than ignoring it, used it to build her case for sainthood.

In layman speak: Catholics are less likely than Protestants to be lemmings.

Protestants do not allow that kind of questioning. They're big on anti-intellectualism too.

Mainstream Protestants, a dieing breed, and mostly liberal ( think Episcopalians) encouraged critical thinking on religion. They have pretty much removed all transcendent elements from their religion, which may be one reason they are disappearing. Evangelical Protestants are the fundamentalist ones,.including the Calvinists, who are often educated and fundamentalist. Yes, that's weird. Catholics have tendencies toward reflection and critical thinking but the Vatican (essentially conservative) holds those tendencies in check so they don't all become totally secular like mainstream Protestants. The Eastern Orthodox are learned in their tradition but very conservative.

Liberal churches are not mainstream Christianity. I know the mainline denominations were once numerical and culturally dominant, but they are now on the sidelines. Liberal churches have hemorrhaged members to the point of extinction and near irrelevance. Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and charismatics aren’t just in the epicenter of modern Protestant Christianity; they dominant the faith.

Catholicism is not a fundamentalist faith; they do not take a literal reading of the Bible.

Also there is a big social justice element - think the priests and nuns marching in the 1960s - so a lot of messiness is expected in life.

People of traditional faith reject liberal churches, and in growing numbers of Catholic Churches, precisely because they view them as unfaithful to the Bible and its God and teachings. Most Christians looking for churches say they seek churches and pastors that believe in the Bible as authoritative and Faith in Jesus as necessary for salvation. People leave churches that start teaching otherwise. Liberal Christians are largely not even going to church much anymore, or are nominal Christians at best. Protestant Churches are growing rapidly in Latin America, AFRICA, and Asia largely because their emphasis on the Bible, supranational charismatic experiences, and a personal conversion experience stands on contrast to Roman Catholicism. Evangelicalism attracts people who believe in the Bible above all and a need to be born again through faith in Jesus.

My Catholic friend says the Church’s failure to emphasize and teach the Bible is its weakness and has resulted in loss of Catholics to Protestants who do.

There are actually many different kinds of Catholics. It’s the religion of literal billions. Ideologically, they’re quite diverse; some are rabidly conservative and hew very closely to even the extremist interpretations of extreme positions like birth control or divorce (these are the folks who think the recent popes, even Benedict and JPII, are sinfully liberal and apostate), while others are actually quite leftist, feminist, pro-gay, anti war, extremely pro-immigrant, and “Catholic Worker”-types (aka Socialists). In between is a vast middle, many of whom are only “culturally” Catholic and not very concerned with doctrine, even if they may be conservative or liberal to some degree on issues like abortion or the death penalty, either in line with or in opposition to church teachings.

I would say that in my personal experience a good 90% of Catholics are “cafeteria Catholics”.

When I was in high school in the 1990s, I probably knew of maybe 5 families in the entire school of 8000 who did not practise birth control and had heaps of kids to the point where the mother was giving birth in her late 40s.

School of 800 I mean

[quote] My Catholic friend says the Church’s failure to emphasize and teach the Bible is its weakness and has resulted in loss of Catholics to Protestants who do.

The few super-Catholic kids I knew (anti-abortion etc) were very interested in Charismatic Christianity/Pentecostalism and loved the idea of speaking in tongues etc during Mass.

Meanwhile the concept of Christianity everyone had began and ended with is “Jesus said to love one another”.

[quote]Catholicism is not a fundamentalist faith; they do not take a literal reading of the Bible.

A priest who taught at my Catholic high school in the 80s went to great pains to explain that the creation narratives in the bible were allegorical, and written by men who, while divinely inspired, could never have known the true events of the world’s creation, or understood in a scientific way the basis and evolution of life on earth. He said one could completely support and believe the theory of evolution as a framework for understanding our scientific knowledge of life on earth, including the fossil record, while still honoring and being faithful to the interpretations set forth in the bible. He even said we could believe Adam and Eve were “real,” but probably nothing like described in the bible, but more like our conception of cavemen or even the “missing link” between other primates and modern humans.

This same priest was also rabidly anti-abortion and homophobic, so it’s a mixed bag. But they’re still not as loony as “creationists” who believe Adam and Eve looked like Ken and Barbie and rode dinosaurs around the Garden of Eden 3,500 years ago.

R87 It's almost like people and the social world were complex phenomena that don't fit into the simple categories that trollish and politically dogmatic people ( right and left) posting on social media want us to believe in. (In order to sow as much division as posdible.)

The literal interpretation of the bible justifies some religion's belief that the earth is only 6000 years old, dinasoaur fossils were put here to test our faith, women shouldn't cut their hair, all sorts of backward lunacy. The Catholic church doesn't want to sound like cranks so they avoid this with a more allegorical interpretation.

In 1st grade, I was taught that most of the books of Genesis were fairy tales. So I was never taught to believe in Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood, and stuff like that. I was taught that they were allegories, which we had to interpret. I grew up in a world of living color, and when I was exposed to the Protestant world, it was liking reverting to black and white TV.

[quote] R89: The Catholic church doesn't want to sound like cranks...

Or, the Catholic Church doesn't want to [italic] be wrong, [/italic] so they address the discrepancies between literal interpretation and reality. It’s not a question of how they want to “sound”. They certainly aren’t afraid of “sounding” crazy when they care to.

Sorry, but your post just “sounds” off, to me.

I, personally, suspect that the Noah flood was oral history that was eventually committed to paper, to explain the flooding that occurred when the connection of the Black Sea to the Mediterranean was breached, leading to the great expansion of the Black Sea’s boundaries and conversion from fresh water to sea water. And displacement of all the seafront dachas for the rich Sumerians. I kid about the last part.

Just like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah may have been some freak natural occurrence that primitive people sought to explain.

You need only look at the ridiculous conspiracy theories, about events in our own era, that quickly crop up to imagine what these people might have imagined when they saw a meteor, or experienced an earthquake or volcano. They didn’t even understand lightning! Imagine that!

In light of the explosive growth of Pentecostalism, there is a Charismatic Movement within Catholicism with similar expressions of exuberant worship and emphasis on supernatural gifts.

Much of the reported decline of Christianity in West is confined to the decline in liberal adherents. Evangelical and charismatic churches have maintained steady numbers of members, and Pentecostals are grown big time.

There's a reason you'll continue to find upper middle-class and middle-class non-Catholic parents sending their kids to Catholic school. That the Catholic education system continued to thrive even during the worst of the child abuse scandal is something worth thinking about.

They’re closing Catholic schools in my city constantly, R95, and have been for years. Churches, too. They sell the land to real estate developers to settle civil suits from abuse victims. Not sure what you’re talking about. Maybe rich-fuck private schools like Covington Catholic are making out on deplorable families looking for a lily-white safe space to incubate and indoctrinate their spawn. But diocesan schools are struggling, closing and consolidating near me.

[quote]They’re closing Catholic schools in my city constantly

How many were there before and how many are left? Because if they were closing them constantly since the early 2000s, none would exist by now.

One thing to be aware of, is that there was a dip in population after the baby boom. And the boomers, that I know anyway, typically had 2 children each. Not 5-9 like their parents.

And people do seem to go to church less.

I don’t mean “dip in population”, I mean, you know, the boom was over.

People go to Catholic churches less because of the sex abuse scandal.

All of the above. And once it's no longer a cultural assumption and you're not exposed to it as a child it becomes admittedly "weird." The baby boomers, of which I am later one, were the last US generation to grow up "in the church".

The Orthodox Church is the only true Christian church.

The Church of Rome has been controlled by satanists since 1959.

I used to always mock the Proestant kids for having ugly churches:

"We're focused on the teachings of Jesus! We don't need to show off like you Catholics!" "Yeah, that's what POOR people say. 'Oh we just need a barn with two sticks tied together and our FAITH!'" >:-(

Protestants love calling Catholics as part of a "cult" because of the papal hierarchy when, to me, the pastor-culture of Protestantism is WAY more cult like.

Of course, Catholics are morbid as hell (relics) which I didn't realize was odd until I was much older. But now I think it's fascinating and would have it no other way.

I learned as an adult:

Every Catholic Church has a relict associated with it. Many are entombed within the cornerstone of the Church when it is built. It is also common for no one today to know where the relict is, exactly.

A relict may be part of the body of a Saint, or an item associated with a Saint, typically. Sometimes they hit the big time and have something associated with the Apostles or Christ or an apparition. There’s a Church in Rome containing the chains that held St. Peter. Of course, the Vatican has the remains of numerous sainted Popes in the Crypt, including St. Peter.

There are three, at least, Spears of Destiny, the spear that pierced Christ’s side, when on the cross. Lots of samples of wood from the “true cross”. Nails, here and there, etc. None real, likely.

Personally, just like the Old Testament, the story of these relics should not be thought of as literal, but instead, inspirational, in my opinion.

The Shroud of Turin was pretty much proved to be from the Middle Ages, not Christ’s burial cloth, but it can still be appreciated as a source of inspiration, and an incredible work of art, btw.

Don't started on the wax Agnes Dei.

R92, Actually, that's sort of what I was taught back in the 60s. That other ancient cultures in the Middle East had similar stories, about floods and our origins. That's what I appreciated about my Catholic education: I wasn't taught that we were unique. I'm very aware of the awful history between Catholics and Jews in Europe, but in my upbringing, I was taught respect. We had 'outreach' where we were introduced to other faiths. I enjoyed visiting a Jewish temple, and I attended services at Orthodox churches, and several times, my school hosted Jewish groups. The largest gap there seemed to be with the Evangelical Christian churches. I'm not religious any more, but I still sometimes feel the need to pray with other people, and that's when I attend Mass. My parish is small and 'welcoming' (divorced people and gays aren't shunned).

Well, former club bouncer Pope Francis got elected. And he's not conservative.

Non Catholic churchs are not real churchs and should be eradicated.

Catholicism appears dogmatic only because of all the rituals, but when it comes to biblical interpretation, it is a very intellectual religion. As others have pointed out above, Jesuits encourage Catholics to approach life with skepticism and to use logic. It seems at odds from a distance, but I think the core of it is that they're encouraging you to go through the world with an open heart, and to not take the world at face value, because the world is corrupt. Catholics on the whole seem far more pragmatic to me than other types of Christians, and they also tend to be very charity-driven and invested in human rights issues. Catholics tended to be large supporters of the formation of labor unions.

The best fuck I ever encountered was a Catholic boy. All that guilt and sin makes for a marvelous experience. If you think you're doing something wrong and nasty it's so much more fun.

Catholics are known for being good in the sack R110, e.g. the "slutty Catholic schoolgirl" trope. For most of them, the taboo factor surrounding sex translates into an earnest, hot-and-heavy approach to fucking. The others become violent, repressed psychopaths, but that is rarer in my experience. Catholics are known to be slutty for a reason.

Catholics have to appear more liberal and rational today because they've been caught out too many times in the past with their soul crushing dogmas. The sex abuse scandals never stop coming. New ones are discovered it seems on a daily basis. Popes have known about it since Pope John(at least) and have tacitly approved of it doing nothing about it. And this after their tacit support of the Nazis and Fascists!

A tremendously evil organization. If it didn't have so much money stolen under false pretenses for hundreds of years it would have died out years ago. Yes I know good Catholics but they would have been good people without it. Catholics do good works but also very bad ones.

A number of Catholics wrap themselves in the cloak of piety yet are still nasty shitty people. I hated it as a boy growing up with it and my contempt for it has only grown. There is nothing good you can say about it that can't be knocked down a thousand times over by the bad it's done.

As a former Catholic, I must say I'm enjoying this thread -- one of the most thoughtful on the DL in awhile.

Also: Catholicism has produced some amazing architecture.

Is the Pope a homosexual?

If I had kids, I would send them to Catholic school for the education and discipline.

Public schools coddle the troublemakers. It's twenty strikes and you're out.

I have beautiful cursive handwriting from Catholic school. It’s one of the few outcomes I’m really happy about from 9 years in that system.

Every time the topic of public education/politics comes up I go off like an old doddering hag on how kids today need cursive handwriting for discipline and development. I’ll never back down.

Probably because Catholics by and large don't feel the Bible is the literal word of God. The Protestants tend to believe every story in the Bible happened (or will happen) without question. A talking serpent? A worldwide flood? People that live 500 years old? C' mon eh.

Yeah, that’s one of the reasons the Reformation happened: many felt the Roman Catholic Church has adopted innovations and tradition that were not only unbiblical, but expressly contrary to the Bible. Sola Scriptura is still the foundation of conservative Christianity and considered the litmus test for orthodox theology.

[quote] I rarely hear Catholics talk about Jesus or the Bible the way even moderate Protestants do.

Catholics like Jesus. Jesus is the best thing about Christianity. The Bible? They can take or leave it.

But talk about either? Never!

[quote] We had 'outreach' where we were introduced to other faiths. I enjoyed visiting a Jewish temple, and I attended services at Orthodox churches, and several times, my school hosted Jewish groups. The largest gap there seemed to be with the Evangelical Christian churches. I'm not religious any more, but I still sometimes feel the need to pray with other people, and that's when I attend Mass. My parish is small and 'welcoming' (divorced people and gays aren't shunned).

We had outreach too! (Late 80s and 90s for me)

My fourth grade class got in trouble for behaving like wild animals at the local Jewish school when offered their delicious pastries. We actually had letters sent home from the principal describing how we embarrassed the school in front of our hosts, especially as they were our Older Brothers In God.

I also recall preparing vegetarian snacks for the visiting Muslim students. Because I was a "good" student I had half a day off lessons to wash fruit and assemble platters of cheese and crackers.

Catholics love Jesus just as much as Protestants, but it’s more mystical and less personal than the Protestant relationship with Jesus. Catholics also revere Mary, some say they worship her, but there is a distinction between praying to Mary to intercede on your behalf with God, and praying directly to God. Catholics also emphasize the saints and encourage praying to them as well, for particular needs or to intercede with God.

Catholicism didn’t really replace paganism, it co-opted it, replaced the lesser deities with saints, and made the Trinity the supreme Godhead. It is not really a monotheistic religion.

Which is another reason for the Reformation and Great Schism

[quote]Catholics on the whole seem far more pragmatic to me than other types of Christians, and they also tend to be very charity-driven and invested in human rights issues. Catholics tended to be large supporters of the formation of labor unions.

This is true. Some stark modern-day differences between Catholics and Protestants:

1. The Death Penalty continues to thrive in the USA in large part thanks to Protestant belief in 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. Very unforgiving religion. Death penalty abolitionist Sister Helen Prejean (of Dead Man Walking) once tried to explain to some evangelicals the incongruence of being pro-life and pro-death penalty but they were having none of it. They seemed bent on "justice" in the form of vengeance and read that very scripture to her from their paperback bibles. I don't understand how Christians can be so gung-ho about murder by the state.

2. Another thing protestantism seems to support is unbridled capitalism manifested in the prosperity gospels preached by some megachurches. So if you're rich, God has blessed you like Job in the bible. The poor are out of God's favour and must have done something to displease him therefore they should pray for forgiveness so they too can be blessed and become rich. Join our church and we will help you become wealthy. For Catholics, on the other hand, poverty is almost celebrated as a virtue (St Francis of Assisi and many, many other saints). Your material possessions don't indicate how much God loves you. And those that have are encouraged to get involved in charity. Catholicism, in this way, has always been a natural fit for socialism. The seminarians who go to my mother's church are big Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren supporters.

Helen Prejean

Interesting, R123. I know nothing about these Protestant positions.

What I know, is that Catholics are very big on “forgiveness”. Anybody can apply.

[quote] (for some Protestants) The poor are out of God's favor ...

This is also interesting to me. It reminds me of the Pagan religions of Rome. I thought that was their idea, too.

Catholicism is very ethnic. Italians, Spanish, Irish, Polish in particular, have their own style. In the US, they all arrived poor and had big families, so stayed poor, in large part. Of course I generalize.

In an episode of the Simpsons, Homer needed a hospital. In a thought bubble, he went up from the bottom: first, St. Mary’s Hospital (with nuns in the bubble); then up to First Presbyterian Hospital; then finally upscale to Beth Israel Hospital. I just thought that was funny.

Isn't the zombie death cult in a state of schism now, as it ignored all the 60's declerations from the murdered Pope?

[quote]Catholicism is very ethnic. Italians, Spanish, Irish, Polish in particular, have their own style. In the US, they all arrived poor and had big families, so stayed poor, in large part. Of course I generalize.

In my own family, this has not been the case. (Yes, anecdotal.) My Italian ancestors on my dad's side came to the US from Florence and remained comfortably middle class; after a generation, they were rather well-off. My Irish and Neapolitan ancestors came dirt poor, but their decedents are now comfortably middle or upper-middle class.

I don't know what Catholics you know R125 but there are plenty of Catholics who are not going to shed a tear if a murderer gets the needle and they like money too. And often don't care how they get it. Jews have nothing on Catholics for stealing money from people under false pretenses.

You give me Bernie Madoff and I'll give you the Pope.

r128 sounds delightful and wise.

R129 sounds stupid and dim.

R128 and R129 don’t sound at all. They might [italic] read [/italic] problematic, though.

R131 please marry me

Are you Catholic, R132? Will you convert?

I'm rather surprised that some of these Catholic clergy are such ardent Democrats, when their candidates are officially baby killers? I don't see a big difference between so-called cafeteria Catholics and hypocrites myself.

No need for conversion R133—born and raised Catholic, [italic]and[/italic] educated at a Jesuit university.

Are you still a Catholic R135? If so Cafeteria or Irish?

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic R136, right? But I do not practice anymore. My mother was raised Irish-Catholic, but I am not really—probably technically cafeteria.

I'm going to Rome soon, can't wait to see the Holy Father celebrating mass at the Vatican.

R122, the Great Schism refers to the break with the Eastern Orthodox and that was NOT over Mary and the saints, since the Orthodox rever them as well. What do think all those icons are? I'm wearing a tiny reproduction of a miraculous icon of Mary that suddenly appeared under a tree in Russia in the middle ages and would travel back there everytime it was moved. Cause Mary (the Theotokos) wanted a church built to her right where that tree was. Catholics got nothing on the Eastern churches when it comes to Mary and the saints. We have relics too, I've touched the bones of St Innocent of Alaska.

[quote] R137: Once a Catholic, always a Catholic [R136], right?

A stranger enters a bar in Belfast. The bartender makes conversation, then asks the stranger if he’s a Catholic or a Protestant. The stranger replies that he’s an atheist. The bartender says, “Ay, but are you a Catholic atheist, or. Protestant atheist?”

R134, why would you be surprised? Not only are not all Democrats pro-choice, but Republicans are actively anti-life, so there is no hypocrisy involved in the clergy supporting Democratic politicians.

When I tell people I'm Catholic (which I normally don't) they seem shocked. Why would an openly gay man claim to be part of that cult? Well, I went to Catholic schools all the way through high school, and two of my high school teachers were also my cousins. When I came out to my parents, at 18, it was because I had been raised to be honest, and to face whatever backlash I'd have to face for being honest (the lives of the martyrs were a large part of my earlier Catholic education).

Well why would an openly gay man be part of that cult? Just because you went to catholic schools all the way through high school doesn't seem like an answer. What need in your life does it fill?

R143, you’re not a serious person and your question is not a serious one.

R142, you said nothing about your belief in and love for God, Jesus, the Gospel, The things that should make people cling to Christian faith and practice.

I'm proud to be Catholic and always will be!

Christians should eschew “Pride.” It’s a huge sin

Fuck it! My mom died when she was 48. It's not fair. Where's this God ppl talk about?

R145, This may seem strange to you, but I feel the presence of God in my life. I can't/won't attempt to explain something for which I don't have the words. I've certainly read the Bible, but I don't 'love' it. I've loved my family and friends. And sometimes, I feel love when I'm not expecting it. And for that, I feel gratitude.

Well I've asked you R144 a serious question. And you answer in a typically nasty Catholic way. You seem to have wasted your time studying the lives of the martyrs if you had wanted to learn anything from them. I thought pride and smugness were unchristian. So I guess you go in the Cafeteria column.

While we are on this earth, we all have our crosses to bear in whatever form it comes. We can take confidence in the fact that we will richly rewarded in heaven.

Because it was drilled into our heads that humans are unworthy and we will never be as great as God.

OP = Tub Mary.

R150, I'm not R144, so I think you may have us confused. I'm R142 and R149.

Let's be clear that Catholics don't think the same and there's a big left-right political divide within the church. This article captures some of the dilemma for Catholic voters. Many Catholics vote for the Democrats because "they perceived the Democrats to be the party of the poor, the marginalized, the workers and the "little guy." Yet again, why should they vote for Democrats when their position on abortion is antithetical to Catholic teaching? This considered, it would make sense for Catholics to vote Republican.

The article asks:

[quote]But what does it mean to have "proportionate reasons" to vote for Sanders, a man who flagrantly ignores the dignity of voiceless and helpless prenatal children -- and indeed works hard to make sure they do not receive equal protection of the law?

Then asserts:

[quote] Catholics must favor the poor first. Jesus doesn’t talk about hell very often, but when he does it is almost always seen as the result of a failure to be on the side of the poor. Sanders’ commitment to the poor blows away any GOP candidate in this regard.

Again, Catholicism = Socialism

[quote]It is Catholic doctrine that wealth exists to be shared; private property is under a social mortgage for the common good; workers must be paid a living wage; health care is a human right, and we must be on the side of the poor first.

So to the person wondering why pro-life Catholics vote for pro-choice Democrats, there's your answer. They're also less hypocritical than Protestants who rail against abortion but fervently support the death penalty.

I just want to say that this is such a great thread and a good example of why I continue to come here even though I feel I wouldn't associate with the majority here in real life who are obsessed with superficialities and celebrity.

If you think this world is all there is, then bad or unpleasant things that happen to you will always seem to be the be-all and end-all. But for those who believe in the Christian promise of life eternal and a bigger divine purpose Beyond this world and time, our afflictions here are but momentary experiences That will Be soon superseded By eternity with God.

I went to Catholic school with my sister in Australia. Catholic schooling follows the mainstream curriculum including in terms of Personal Development/Sex Education. So both girls and boys were taught about safe sex and family planning (the nice phrase for abortions).

No one proselytised about unborn babies and stuff; that was more an American thing.

Abortion wasn't on the level of pre-martial sex and divorce among Catholics (ie everyone did it with no guilt). And all but a very few families did not practise birth controls if the low number of siblings per family were anything to go buy. But it was an affluent area and a very academic school, and if termination was required it was taken care off as quickly as possible. I know of 4 girls who did.

R143, R145, i'm not R144, but I'll attempt to answer your question. My identity as a Catholic precedes my identity as a gay man. I went to Catholic schools, went to Mass at least twice a week, and was educated in my religion. It's been a home for me. That probably makes no sense to most people.

I had a difficult time recognizing I was gay (this was back in the 70s). I was raised with a moral code, which tried to teach me to be aware of people who were different, who were poor. No one has a problem mentioning 'ethnic Jews', but I think that ethnic Catholics exist. We grew up with a certain identity, that's intrinsic to us. I was disowned by my parents when I told them I was gay. It was a miserable time for me, but we reconciled. They couldn't accept the idea of disowning their own child, just I couldn't accept lying to them.

You seem to want me to explain my relationship with Jesus and the Gospel. Well, I know the Bible, very well, but I can't/don't quote it verse for verse, since I was taught, from my earliest days, that much of it was allegory. On the other hand, we have 'red letter days' in our Bible, when the words of Christ are highlighted. I was always taught that the words of Christ were the Church's highest teachings. Christ never condemned gay people: those are other passages in the Bible. Christ commanded us to love each other: we were commanded to love God, and to love each other. So I strive to do that.

Do you love me, R159?

R160, I don't know. I would certainly never be intentionally mean to you. But, at the same time, I know what it's like to be attacked, and I've had to learn to defend myself. I prefer to avoid confrontations.

Just as there are differences and nuances among Catholics, there are likewise differences among Evangelicals

It needs to be stated, again and again, that all Catholics are not anti-choice. Many are pro-choice. Many others see abortion as one issue in a larger world of injustices, and prioritize, say, saving actual babies and children separated from their parents at the border, over demonizing and manipulating young women in crisis. You can call yourself pro-life and fight for the rights of poor and sick people, while considering abortion a largely private matter that you would not choose or recommend personally. These Catholics believe you can oppose abortion personally while accepting that it should exist legally.

R159. You need to read the bible on your own instead of listening to others. You seem to not know much at all about the bible scriptures.

The Christmas Moose loves you, R160.

R164, when you read the Bible, you are reading someone else’s interpretation of a translation from writings that may be many times removed from the original source. So, reading it “yourself” instead of “listening to a scholar” isn’t any kind of improvement. It’s not like you’ve got the original source material.

You can’t even read Shakespeare today and understand the nuances of what was originally meant when it was written. You likewise need an interpreter when reading the Bible.

R159 sounds like a good guy and like most Catholics I've known.

Catholic politicians can support abortion rights like Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden etc.

They are threatened with denial of Communion

People are people. Some are good some if not bad let's just say are difficult and at times unpleasant. I've never found religion to be a deciding factor.

^ I'd still rather avoid hanging out with Evangelicals.

I agree with someone upthread who commented on Catholic intellectualism. I was educated in Catholic schools from first grade through university. The Catholic intellectual tradition is very rich, and has 1,500 years on Protestantism.

[quote]They are threatened with denial of Communion

Has this ever happened?

R173, Yes, and I've seen it happen. Not to a politician, but to a friend's father, who went up for communion, but was turned away. He divorced his wife, since she was an alcoholic danger to their children, and he ended up raising them on his own. A very good man. It haunted me for years. A different parish priest eventually relented. I didn't know anyone in our parish who wasn't outraged, though. The other fathers in our parish went out of their way to show solidarity with him. I haven't thought about it for a long time, but it makes me feel ashamed.

I'm surprised people continued going to that church. Even if priests came from intellectual traditions(but really were very stupid in basic ways like withholding communion as if the guy had been a murderer) their parishioners did not.

R166. The language in different bible are interpreted differently. Just like how king James version is different in language to some other bible but the moral teachings are all the same.

R175, The other fathers started going up to communion at the same time as Mr Hurm (he's since died, and I'm sure his family isn't on DL). And if he was refused communion, they would refuse it as well. They made sure he wasn't isolated. But, back in the 60s, you didn't come across the same push-backs that you'd see today. It wouldn't be like the other parishes would have reacted differently. It was a hard lesson, but again, we were taught to use our consciences (sp?)

The big mainstream Bible translations are essentially the same in meaning. They are based on the same early manuscripts of the Bible, which are amazingly consistent. There is no significant variance in major modern translations

But people often use the nuanced meanings and context of words to justify their own beliefs which a very messy business. Especially in sermons and bible study groups.

As a young child taught by nuns in Catholic grade school we hoped one day to become a nun ourself.

R174, had he remarried?

R181, No, but, back then, so much depended on the parish priest. I remember how judgmental they were about divorce back then, and Mr Hurm was treated badly. Even our teachers were sympathetic to why divorce was sometimes necessary (and were pretty open to birth control, too). I know my parents asked about birth control, and were told that it was their business (my parents told me everything).

It just seems odd. The Church would simply not recognize the divorce as legit and would only penalize if one remarried. Therefore living in sin. Btw the Orthodox churches allow a certain number of divorces and remarriage, I think up to three.

R174 what years about are you talking?

If that happened in the 60s, it's unlikely to be tolerated now. I once saw a priest give a mother a hard time by refusing to baptise her kid because she never married the father.

Catholics traditionally have no problem with divorce per se, it is remarriage that is the problem, as it’s considered adultery, or if divorce is used as an excuse for abandonment. And there is that vow of “in sickness and health”.

Individual Priests have their own issues as well. They aren’t saints, that’s for sure.

In the US today, they are importing parish Priests from third world countries so they are, collectively, taking a conservative turn.

R184, This was back in the 60s. But here's the rub: that thing about respecting one's conscience is supposed to apply to priests, too. I can't imagine any church making that kind of fuss about divorce now. But we're talking about a time when woman would put handkerchiefs over their heads if they had forgotten to wear a hat or scarf. I don't think most people now are even aware of that custom.

My Mom could not find a Catholic priest in 1944 Brooklyn to marry her to my Dad, because he was Episcopalian. They got a civil marriage instead, and she could not receive communion until she later found a priest who would (re)marry them.

The Church later accepted such marriages, provided the parents pledged to raise their children as Catholics. I don’t know where it stands today.

[quote] R178: The big mainstream Bible translations are essentially the same in meaning. They are based on the same early manuscripts of the Bible, which are amazingly consistent. There is no significant variance in major modern translations.

I’m not sure I believe that, R178.

I understand that the King James’ Bible differs from the official Catholic Bible by quite a bit. I think it depends on how you define “significant variance”.

The Catholic Bible accepts books as canonical that the Protestants do not (e.g. Tobit). They tend to be from the period between the writings of the Old and New Testaments and I believe Jewish in origin only existed in Greek. The Greek Orthodox bible accepts a few more, and the Ethopian Orthodox several more. My understanding is that the KJV is thought of by scholars as not a scholarly translation by today's standards but is poetic. There are Protestant sects called King James onlyists who believe the translation was as inspired as the original texts and only use that translation. If you got saved using another translation then you're not saved.

R188, Yes, that's long been an issue for Catholics. My grandfather had to convert from Lutheranism to Catholicism to marry my grandmother. My aunt had to convert from Pentecostal to Catholic to marry my uncle. But her children definitely weren't raised as Catholic, except in name, I suppose. That's why the Church's stance regarding same-sex marriage has pissed me off so badly. They don't have to perform any marriage they don't approve of, so they're already exempt (more or less). My boyfriend isn't Catholic. He'd probably convert to marry me, if I asked, but the Church still isn't going to marry us because we're two men. And it would never occur to me to ask them, anyway.

[quote] R164: [R159]. You need to read the bible on your own instead of listening to others. You seem to not know much at all about the bible scriptures.

My point in R166, is that you are already “listening to others”, when you read the Bible.

And also years ago being a priest was not a bad career move in terms of instant political and social status including room and board. They could have their mistresses and male lovers on the side.

Today professionally it has no clout and enormous stigma. That's why they are importing from 3rd world countries. These people are escaping crushing poverty and of course as company men they will be yesmen. A spiritual calling is the last thing anybody would consider.

R188 I'm surprised a woman who is that devout would even go through with marrying a Protestant husband in the first place.

I'm a bit confused about this claim that Roman Catholics are so critical thinking, Jesuits, Etc. They've always had a reputation for a terrified fear of burning in Hell based upon what the church told them was the "truth".

My father was married and divorced briefly before marrying my mom, a practicing catholic. When they married, neither was allowed by the church to participate in communion or make confession, even though they were well known and involved parishioners. Then one day a priest called and said they had waited long enough and if they got married in the church, they could start doing communion/confession. I was about 14 at the time. They had a church wedding attended by close family. So I actually attended my parents wedding!

How many religions allow personal conscience to take precedence over church teaching?

There's always church annulments. Or Catholic divorce as it's called. Now a days the Church tries to find ways to grant annulments at least once to be more lenient. An elderly gay priest once told me he always tried to work a small technical mistake into the church marriage forms in order to provide grounds for annulment later if necessary.

An example of even the same word being interpreted differently is the verse from the Bible. Jesus says to Peter, "you are my rock and upon this rock I will build my church". In Catholic bibles, Rock is capitalized, and in Catholic tradition meant that wherever Peter settled and preached would be the center of Christianity. In Protestant bibles, rock is not capitalized, and the interpretation is that Peter might be first among many disciples, but all would be equal. Other protestants believe that rock has nothing to do with Peter personally, but just the notion of a believer. Multiply that example by hundreds of thousands, and you get all the discrepancies to make a literal interpretation of the bible a living hell. The entire notion of the "rapture" and "end time theology" as it is currently believed by many evangelicals, was NEVER part of Christian theology from the year 100 AD until 1820. All based upon mis-translations of the Bible by John Darby. The bible translation used by most fundamentalists actually changes a word in Genesis to try to disguise the inherent conflict in the two different versions of Creation given in the very first few chapters. One would think that changing a word in a bible would be anathema to a fundamentalist, but since they cannot live with the inherent incongruities in the Bible, they find ways to get around it.

Another issue is that many words in the Bible are self-referential. For instance, in the bible verses from the New Testament often used to say that gay people are sinful, use the words malakoi & arsenokoitai. Malakoi is still used today 2000 years later, in Greek. It means "masturbator" or "wanker" - NOT homosexual. Arsenokoitai is first used in the Bible (meaning that there are no Greek texts in any other place that use this word prior to its use in the Bible). What does it mean? Someone decided that it means homosexual - but in subsequent uses of the word AFTER the bible was written, it specifically means male temple prostitute.

I agree with R192. The first adult man that I dated was an older, Jewish man, very highly educated. He was re-translating passages from the Torah from Aramaic and Greek to Hebrew (I hope I got that correct, since I'm not that smart). It was very interesting seeing how difficult it was, in many cases, not just to translate a specific word, but to translate a figure of speech that may not have a modern equivalent. It's like that lesson many of us had in high school, when one kid would be told a sentence, and it would then be whispered to the next kid, all the way around a circle, until the end result was completely different from the original sentence.

[quote] R194: [R188] I'm surprised a woman who is that devout would even go through with marrying a Protestant husband in the first place.

I’m surprised you’re surprised.

[quote] I'm a bit confused about this claim that Roman Catholics are so critical thinking, Jesuits, Etc. They've always had a reputation for a terrified fear of burning in Hell based upon what the church told them was the "truth".

A reputation among whom? I know a lot of Catholics and any haven’t heard any express a “terrified fear of burning in Hell”.

To be a true Catholic you must believe the Pope is chosen by God through the cardinals. There goes critical thinking right to hell.

^ As opposed to Protestants thinking their megachurch preacher was called by God to lead that flock and blessed with a private jet to boot? Seems to me that you're the one devoid of critical thinking. It's religion, for goodness sakes, it wouldn't be if they didn't believe in divine providence.

Why are you equating all Protestants with mega churches?

R201, But we still have our consciences. I only posted on this thread in the first place because I had never heard people like me described as 'rebellious'. I prefer a Technicolor life, and not the black-and-white existence that was presented to me as the alternative . I know I'm messy and emotional and get myself into trouble, but I don't think I'm an awful person: just a real person with abundant flaws.

Who said you were an awful person??

R205, Many of the people in my neighborhood would tell us we (my family) were going to hell. It was a constant in my younger life. This thread, however, has been pretty respectful, and there haven't been many insults. I think we, the collective DL, have shown we can be respectful to each other. I've been very grateful that DL has let me talk, without attacking me.

I love catholic art. If I had the money I'd collect paintings of Mary in all her glory.

You forget there's always been a very strong anti-Catholic streak woven into the social fabric of Anglo-Saxon countries particularly the U.S. and the U.K. That you can't deny.

R208 reminds me. When the Washington Monument was being built, various friendly countries sent us stones to incorporate into the structure. The Vatican sent such a stone. An angry anti-Papist mob ceased it, and tossed it into the Potomac River, never to be seen again.

Seized it...

R209 for some reason I find that very funny. Kind of like the scene at the Vatican in Zelig.

I would say Catholics are rather laidback [italic]in spite[/italic] of some hardline priests. I'm an ex altar boy and my priest was the last of a dying breed -- severe, authoritarian. His masses would go off the deep end into heavy theology which either bored people or went over their head. His mass about the Three Secrets of Fatima scared the hell out of me.

About Mother Teresa's crisis of faith, the difference is Protestants would immediately dismiss her as someone of weak faith and not a good example. They demand blind, unquestioning belief.

Y’all realize a significant number of Catholics are very conservative and are similar to evangelicals,l. One of my closest friends is Catholic. He didn’t have sex before Marrying, thinks contraception is gravely evil, studies Catholic doctrine and pronouncements, and has now has six kids and counting. He is so anti lust that he goes in stores and turns over covers of magazines with scantily clothed people so No one will be tempted to lust. He doesn’t watch any content with nudity or sacrilege . His kids are home schooled to avoid sinful influences. He votes based on abortion. I’ve met young Catholics through him who the same. The only liberal thing about him is he drinks alcohol.

Well even Jesus drank

Many contend it was a different type of wine that was fermented or not as potent as current wine

[quote] His mass about the Three Secrets of Fatima scared the hell out of me.

Why, R212?

[quote]Many of the people in my neighborhood would tell us we (my family) were going to hell.

I had a bf whose Evangelical parents told him growing up, "We don't care who you date as long as you don't bring home a Catholic girl." So he bought home a Catholic boy instead. (They ended up liking me a lot!)

I'm confused, r214. Why is he one of your "closest friends"?

When I think Catlick-crazy, I think of Kathryn & Sebastian Merteuil. There's a loopy, wolfish decadence to their nasty & ludicrous brand of Xtianity.

Kathryn even uses her crucifix as a coke-vial.

R219, we were best friends in college, almost instantly. We’ve been though a lot together, good and bad. He’s always been there for me through grief and heartache and is a very loyal person with utmost integrity. While I am not Catholic, we both share a faith In Jesus the Christ. I was best man in his wedding and am godfather to his kids. He has bailed me out of difficult situations and given copiously to me. He’s a good guy with a giving heart.

Steve Harvey on Church

R124 is definitely one of those eye opening posts where you realize some pretty strange folks post here.

“I’m on a gay website, but let me tell you about my closest friend, a conservative Catholic who holds views from the 13th century.”

R217, the story of the three Portuguese peasant kids receiving visions from the Virgin was actually pretty dark stuff -- visions of hell and war. My priest seemed to indicate that the Third Secret was the worst of them all, and he seemed to have knowledge of it although it hadn't been released then. Pretty scary stuff to hear when you're a kid and a then somewhat-believer.

[quote]Many contend it was a different type of wine that was fermented or not as potent as current wine

Yes, I'm sure those Debbie Downer anti-fun Evangelicals tell themselves this

Back in the days of the Roman Empire, Wine was fairly seriously watered down to more of what we would consider a spitzer-like level. Drinking undiluted wine as is known today, would have bern looked down upon as alcoholic behavior.

My father when he was young many decades ago in Italy said teens were drinking wine but you didn't get trashed. That was looked down upon as the alcoholic behavior of town drunks. Happy and a bit silly was as far as you got.

It was a great thing that the Virgin Mary decided to appear to those children in Fatima. She stated that two of them would soon be coming home to be with the Lord, while the other would remain on earth for a long time. She was right.

So exactly what was the 3rd secret? I know I could google it but that seems so lacking in spiritual mystery. As opposed to being told it on DL.

R229, at the time (in the 90s), there were rumors that the Third Secret involved mass apostasy, infiltration of the Catholic Church by evil (read: "satanic") powers, and oceans flooding massive portions of the Earth -- this is also what the priest alluded to in his mass. You know, typical end-of-times Catholic stuff. One could reasonably conclude that neither of these scenarios would end up being too far off the mark!

The Catholic Church eventually released a clipped version of the Third Secret and it ended up being an anticlimactic letdown about predicting an assassination attempt on the pope. I don't think they released the full text though.

R228, I recall reading that the Virgin told the little boy that he would go to heaven, but would have to pray very hard. Haha, he was a bad boy.

Well, I never!

Christianity is becoming a minority. People are arguing over smaller pieces of land.

R233, about one-third of the world's population is Christian. (Less than one-quarter is Muslim). Christianity is the dominant religion in about two-thirds of the world's countries.

Are Catholics the only Christians that talk about the environment? Brazil's Evangelical Bolsonaro is at war with Pope Francis over the Amazon fires. Basically told Francis to mind his business and not interfere.

Evangelicals don’t care about the environment because they believe that the second coming is imminent, the world will end once they’ve been raptured, and in the meantime God wants them to be rich, wasteful and selfish (prosperity gospel). They don’t care about the earth because they literally believe they’re going to be whisked off to heaven soon, where God will reward them for being greedy and selfish. When that’s your mindset, global warming seems completely besides the point. All the good people are about to get fast tracked into heaven and the world will end soon after that, so who cares about the environment?

As an evangelical, I can tell you know very little about evangelicals. While a lot of evangelicals believe we are in the Last Days before the Return of Christ, few evangelicals overall believe in the Prosperity Gospel. It’s a distinctly minority subgroup of Christianity that many Christians believe is heretical or erroneous. Most evangelicals are not extreme environmentalists because although we believe in being good stewards of this world, we believe God is sovereign over all things and His will will be done no matter what. We also believe that a lot of modern environmentalism is paganism that worships the Earth and doesn’t believe in the biblical God. The problem with a lot of modern environmentalism for evangelicals is that it doesn’t recognize a sovereign God who transcends all things and reigns forever.

because flyover Fundies suck, and Catholics are just better. That’s why

R237 creeped in via some Google search, and doesn’t know she’s on a gay message board. Unless she’s trying to spread her love for Jeebus, Dump, Izrael, and Jello salads with mini marshmallows.

R239, just what is your hatred based upon?

R240, I am not R239, but did you read what R237 wrote? Do you actually believe such nonsense? Why do you defend it, and on a gay website?

R241, just because you are small-minded and hateful against a huge group of people, doesn’t mean we all have to be likewise. It is estimated that almost 15% of gay and bisexual Americans identify as evangelical. Your views are not universal among bi and gay people.

Evangelical Protestantism and mainline Protestantism are not the same thing. I was raised Congregational and we had nothing in common with the troglodyte, mouth-breathing Evangelical sects such as Pentecostals or even Baptists.

All Protestant "religions" are not legitimate.

Let's all start speaking in tongues!!!!

Deep down, Catholics get that the Bible and the whole "word of God" thing is advisory, not mandatory. It's not exactly dogma, but it's there. We piece it together with a few stained glass windows and some Cecil b Demille movies. We don't actually read the damn thing, and we never take it all that seriously.

Also, penance and forgiveness. And booze. We loves the booze, which automatically makes us less serious about the whole thing than protestants.

Sometimes people brag about reading the entire Bible. I think that’s got to be a boring and pointless exercise. Catholic here.

it's a very bad Protestant habit. And incidentally nothing is more sure to kill any belief than actually reading the Bible. Seriously, try it sometime. You'll be disgusted.

And End Times shit. There is nothing stupider and more typical of the most moronic christians these days than End Times prophecies. Protestants, STOP THAT SHIT, it only makes you look and sound stupid and so many of your preachers love it. STOP THAT SHIT!!!

It's the Evangelical Protestants who are into the End Times. Mainline Protestants know it's a bunch of horseshit.

It sounds like quite a few of you who are Catholic are not all that familiar with Mainline aka "Normal" Protestants. Here in the Northeast we don't have a lot of Fundies like in other regions of the US.

There was a book that came out in the 1970s that expressed and then reinforced the “end times” crap, called “The late great planet earth”. There were also a lot of alien visitation books that sold then, too.

I gotta admit, that may have been one of the best titles ever r251. I almost bought that book just based on the title. The author was full of shit, but a marketing genius. That is a late, great title.

Hal Lindsey. Damn I still remember that bitch. Just cause of that great title. Marketing. Genius.

I read the book. The anti-Christ is to enter the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and declare that he is God.

I thought as a teen, that This was bad fiction. No one would be so full of themselves, and accepted, after such hubris. However, Trump is a Megalomaniac who most certainly will say such a thing if given the opportunity. And 40% of the country will excuse it and explain it away. Not that I think he’s the anti-Christ, just that my estimation of the people around me has sunk to the lowest of depths.

the way that Evangelicals have just, well, presented hole for Donald J Trump. I am actually surprised. I knew they were bastards but thought they might have some few standards. But nope. None whatsoever. Just please may we service you Mr. Republican President. It is actually surprising. Bush at least went to church. Trump makes no pretense. He just demands worship and they oblige.

R255, but it’s all about outlawing abortion, giving conservative Christians more political power, and rolling back lgbt rights. And Trump has been the best president in history for those goals.

yup, yeah, I know you are right r256. Just having the occasional actual Christian in the mix might have been interesting. But that is not the world we live in.

It is truly perverse that Evangelicals align themselves with Trump.

In Catholicism, there is a belief that “the ends does not justify the means”. Not that Catholics know it. It might be something emphasized in the wake of WWII when I was in grade school. Anyway, Trump is an abomination and anything he does that corresponds to Catholic teaching is completely by accident, and I mean that literally.

Hmm, he may not be The Anti-Christ but maybe he really is An anti-Christ. I’ll have to think a bit about that.

you're mangling it a little r258. but you got the song basically right. The ends do not exactly justify the means, but there is this sense that the instrument of god's will may actually carry out the mission without being a perfect person themselves. There was actually a big fight about this in the 3rd century. Do Priests have to be perfect? Well, no. But embracing Trump as some kind of great Christian President? Well, that is whole nother thing.

And I certainly do not mean to pretend that Catholicism is some kind of perfect system. It so completely ain't. But it is not insane, and it has definitely come up with some ideas in the past 2000 years.

Europeans thought it was the End Times during the Black Death. It really must've felt like the end of the world for them.

can't blame em for that r260. rich suburban Americans talking about the end times? just assholes.

[quote] Anyway, Trump is an abomination and anything he does that corresponds to Catholic teaching is completely by accident, and I mean that literally.

I should have added, ...by accident, or as something transactional and therefore without principle or actual belief. By which I mean, For example, he may appoint anti-abortion justices today, and that does match Catholic orthodox beliefs, but it means nothing to him, and he’d trade it away if Satan gave him 10 more years and a new whore with which to spend it.

Coin slots or rosebuds, R261.

That’s meant to be irony.

heh, good enough r263. I get pompous sometimes when it comes to religion. I don't believe, but I have this weird affection for religion. I may figure that out some day.

How the fuck did this discussion get turned into yet another discussion about Trump? Can we have one fucking thread that has nothing to do with Trump that actually stays on topic?

no probably not r265. but what did you want to say?

How? The subject turned to the anti-Christ, and therefore naturally, to Trump .

See the attached link for how he embodies the Seven Deadly Sins. The Seven come from Don Quixote, not from the Bible or Catholic doctrine, but it reflects the character of a man or woman. Most people excel at only a few at a time, at most, so it’s really quite an accomplishment to excel at all seven. It is a shame that dishonesty isn’t the Eighth Deadly Sin, but perhaps someone as dishonest as Trump strained credulity for a fictional book?

Hitler, at least, served in WWI, won himself some decorations for service, and was a street fighter afterward. You can’t call him a coward, unlike Our fascist leader, Trump.

Every goddamn thread lately has to turn into a Trumpfest. Yes I hate him too but JFC any topic gets turned into Trump and American politics.

So Evangelicals are anti-environment, anti-poor people and not big on races mixing. That that piece of shit Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil is an evangelical tells you all you need to know.

R157: And there, in two sentences, is why Christianity has thrived for 2000 years.

[quote]We loves the booze, which automatically makes us less serious about the whole thing than protestants.

R246, you must not know any Episcopalians.

One thing’s for sure, and as a Protestant I freely admit this: Catholic priests are the only guys to call if you need a proper exorcism. Even if you’re not Catholic - hell (no pun intended), even if you’re not Christian, but you find yourself or a loved one possessed by a demon, call the Archdiocese. If things have reached the levitating-and-speaking-in-Aramaic stage and you don’t want to wait for Vatican approval, find a renegade ex-priest who was de-frocked for performing unapproved exorcisms. They’re almost as good. But he must be Catholic! They really have the corner on this market.

One thing’s for sure, and as a Protestant I freely admit this: Catholic priests are the only guys to call if you need a proper exorcism. Even if you’re not Catholic - hell (no pun intended), even if you’re not Christian, but you find yourself or a loved one possessed by a demon, call the Archdiocese. If things have reached the levitating-and-speaking-in-Aramaic stage and you don’t want to wait for Vatican approval, find a renegade ex-priest who was de-frocked for performing unapproved exorcisms. They’re almost as good. But he must be Catholic! They really have the corner on this market.

R249. Shut your mouth and do not speak of what you do not understand. It is funny how a thread about Catholics became a bash protestants thread.

Episcopalians are a tiny group and nearing extinction

They really are r275. They used to be Catholic-lite with gay marriage and women priests but the irony is quite a few defected to Catholicism over that.

My impression is that American Catholicism is really changing. My home parish now has African priests. They are very conservative. I know the Catholic Church is very “top down” organized, but how can it comfort and serve the local parish if their (The Priest’s) life experiences are so different?

Yes, the Developing World is where Catholicism is growing, and it’s a very conservative form of Catholicism that is heavily influenced by fast growing Pentecostalism and evangelicalism. A liberal or moderate Catholicism has very little appeal in nonWestern countries.

I just know from experience, that for their charitable works and noble deeds, Catholics are some of the biggest bullies I've ever met.

R277, Catholic priests have always had lives that were far removed and unfathomable to regular parishioners, and vice-versa. The absurdity of it all is fully realized when you have supposedly celibate and very likely homosexual priests counseling people on their marriages, sexual relationships, reproductive decisions and parenting. Just completely ludicrous. It’s like a gay man taking dating advice from a nun. Yet the whole culture revolves around “what the priest says.”

^ Well, that priest could have very advanced degrees in psychoanalysis.

R280, but the Parish Priest was invited to dinner by one family after another. The same Priest baptized, gave first communion, confirmed, and married your kids. Sometimes, the Irish, Poles, Italians, and Spanish had their own churches or at least, masses. The Priests were different from the parishioners, but they were very much part of the community.

There were 7 or so Catholic Churches within walking distance of my home 25 years ago. The German Church; the Gay Church; The Cathedral; the other Gay Church; the hip youngster Church with the Gay vibe; the Marist Church; the addict and impoverished Church with the monks who were all in recovery and also Gay; etc. So, you had a choice as to where you thought you fit in.

'bare: a Pop Opera' was very enjoyable, Aaron Lohr was hot in it.

That's all I know about Catholicism and all I came in to say. Punching out.

Catholics are in the vast majority low-key and secular. They almost never talk about it in good company unless mentioning a nephew's confirmation or midnight mass at Christmas or saying they'll pray for a sick friend. If discussing one's relationship with God or Jesus or worship habits are done, they're done by weirdos.

Anyone you see in the media loudly proclaiming their Catholicism is a weirdo.