Judy Garland: what went wrong?

FF OP for not knowing the answer to this question, which you should have known since childhood, even before you learned the alphabet.

Do lighten up r1

[Quote] What kept her on the lower rungs of the Academy Awards?

Because she couldn't act or deliver a performance that wasn't about her being needy, pathetic, clingy and desperate?

Too much Seconal.

I think the rank and file of Hollywood hated her for being such a spoiled brat. All the delays, petty indulgences, tantrums, etc cost Judy when it came time to vote, IMO

The Munchkins raped her and she LIKED it, but could never come to terms with that.

Technically she did have an Oscar, for best juvenile performance for Wizard. She was nominated twice after that but she'd burned too many bridges in Hollywood with her addict antics. Even back then, popularity had a great deal to do with Oscar wins.

I am convinced Judy was a borderline.

She put everyone she worked with on the edge of a nervous breakdown so when Oscar time rolled around they would happily have given it to Jayne Mansfield had she been nominated.

Jerry Herman wanted her to replace Angela in Mame. Would she have made it to the first Wed mat? Or even Tues night for that matter.

100 mg of Ritalin a day!!??

My own theory has always been that Hollywood doesn't like freakishly gifted people--people like Judy, like Orson Welles....they're talented IN THE WRONG WAY. Hollywood knows its own.

r 11 = G

Freakishly gifted people can often be self destructive. Self absorbed and nutty to excess. Judy with pills, Orson with food, Callas with a devastating internal void. They find themselves hard to live with. Do they kill themselves or just lose the will to live?

She made many enemies in the business with her bad behavior.

Plus, if you REALLY look at her performance in A Star is Born, she isn't very good. She's very hammy and far too old looking for the part.

I do think had she lived to old age she would gave been given an Honorary Oscar a few years before her death. If nothing else just for her ability to survive.

I agree with R13. Judy, like other exceptionally gifted people, can be self destructive. I've seen that with friends that I know. I've watched them struggle with employment and relationships. They operate at a different level than the rest of us and use drugs and alcohol to make them, I suppose, feel normal. Just a theory on my part. She was amazingly gifted which was undeniable. Yes, she most likely didn't follow the unspoken rules and had trouble with directors like Busby Berkeley who pushed her too hard and was harsh when he could have been more tender and understanding.

What went wrong? If she had the right "handlers" working with her perhaps she would have received more awards and lived longer. Though I can imagine she was difficult and few people knew how to give her the help she needed. I'd like to remember her as one of the outstanding talents of the 20th century. We were lucky to have enjoyed her as long as she was with us.

R16 Self-medicating, as my therapist used to put it (when I had one). Judy's MGM contract ended when she was what, 28? After that she didn't make many other movies, I think only 3?

Her acting in the non-musical The Clock was beautiful. Mostly, she did musicals. Performers in musicals didn't usually get Oscar noms. Gene Kelly got one for Anchors Aweigh, that was very unusual.

Her not getting an Academy Award for A Star Is Born was surprising, and this may have nothing to do with it but the movie was severely cut while in early release and her performance wasn't ruined, I guess, but it wasn't improved. (many people today haven't seen the cut version but I have). Obviously, actors work hard on the progression or arc of their performance and this one (along with James Mason's - maybe even more so) was tampered with.

One thing I've thought a lot about is that Judy was the first woman in history expected to carry musical after musical. In those days they were made on grueling schedules (6 days a week), under hot lights for Technicolor, indoors without AC, and the star, who was in almost every scene, had to act, sing (pre-record), dance, etc. And Judy was physically very small and probably frail, underweight at times (at the studio's insistence), and had a drug problem (honestly can't blame her). The only other woman I can think of who went through this regularly as the main star of movie musicals was Doris Day (and even she didn't do musicals for 15 years).

PS She was also Oscar-nominated for Judgment At Nuremberg, and she won a Tony for her show at the Palace in NYC in 1951(?).

Well she was addicted to performing and applause but was incapable of sustaining it. Who could at that level of intensity? So that's when the pill popping starts to keep it up. Like Gelsey Kirkland with cocaine. She couldn't keep up her level of dancing without it. So it fucked up her head and body. Callas threw away her career when she got frightened because things were starting to slip away at a fairly young age or she knew they were slipping away and things were becoming harder even if audiences couldn't yet tell.

Streisand lasted because she got lazy and started with the schlock which she sang for years and required so little. Look at her numbers in Funny Girl. You can only do that for a brief period of time before burning yourself out. She sure as hell wasn't singing The Battle Hymn of the Republic or doing Gypsy in her 40s. Greed and lack of generosity as a performer saved her.

And Barbra took a LOT of time off. She wouldn't do much for lengthy periods of time.

Judy was basically a good person and that is the kind of person who gets shit on. Babs is an evil bitch. Life is always kind to that kind of person.

Barbra also didn't tour for nearly 30 years, which went a long way in keeping her from burning out. Touring, especially on a yearly basis like many of her contemporaries did, is grueling. And when she did resume touring it wasn't a huge schedule. She only played a few cities and then she was done for another few years.

Judy has the compensation of knowing her work lasted, while contemporaries like Eleanor Powell, Ann Miller, Betty Hutton, Jane Powell, Deanna Durbin, Jeanette McDonald, Vera-Ellen, etc are largely forgotten. Judy had memorable films like Meet Me In St. Louis, A Star Is Born, The Wizard of Oz and Easter Parade, which will stand the test of time.

It's amazing to me that someone with so many personal issues was still able to deliver the goods on screen. Her scene in ASIB where she admits she hates her husband for failing is a gem.

Yes Judy was so good at times it's kind of scary. Uncanny really. If a performer can be a genius Garland was one. A good friend of Cukor's, it might have been Ina Claire, was on the set when one of the shots of The Man That Got Away was done, and said to him something to the effect of 'that girl is burning herself out.'

Berlin was faithful to her to the end and refused to allow any of her clips from Annie to be shown while he was alive. And considering that he lived to be over 100 that's a long time. He had his lawyers squash any attempt.

I do indeed believe that performers can be geniuses, and she was certainly a genius. She was so fragile, the studio system ate her alive.

I do indeed believe that performers can be geniuses, and she was certainly a genius. She was so fragile, the studio system ate her alive.

She overdosed. Next?

R19 Barbra may not have been singing The Battle Hymn Of The Republic in her 40s, but Judy did.

I think the trouble with film is that it makes everything look easy, somehow. Sometimes when I watch her (and others, like Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire) performing on film it's not obvious that there was so much grueling work and concentration that went into the perfection of the work.

It's called Hollywood. Look at the stars now. More than half are alcoholics and druggies. What else are they going to spend their money on.

I would have loved to have seen Judy and Montgomery Clift win Best Supporting Oscars for their roles in "Judgement at Nuremberg." They were both nominated, but both lost. It would have been so wonderful if the two of them had won that year. Both of them deserved so much to win an Oscar.

I feel like a lot of people in Hollywood were haters

I remember reading that June Allyson said Judy would call her and they would talk late into the night (which Judy did with a lot of people, apparently). Dick Powell would have to get on the phone and say June needed to sleep, she was making a movie and had to get up in three hours, or whatever. I know Judy was far from perfect, but I think it says something about her that JUne was willing to stay up talking to her for hours, at the expense of looking good for the camera.

Judy was utterly magnetic and utterly exhausting. She drew in so many well-meaning people who tried their best to save her, and she sucked every single one of them dry. Sid Luft might have been a gold-digger, but he earned every penny he got off Judy. Without him, she would have spiraled and died before she was 40. How he lasted a decade with her is something like a miracle.

[quote]And Barbra took a LOT of time off. She wouldn't do much for lengthy periods of time.

Judy should have taken time off like this, but she wasn’t able to... because she was constantly broke.

Yes I think it's true a lot of people tried to save Judy from herself but they had to pull away simply out of self preservation.

David Begelman, her agent in the 60's, gave her a royal screwing over, stole a lot of money from her and was responsible for a blackmail scheme that extorted more money from her.

He was also literally screwing her at one point. Judy might have been able to retire in the early 60s if she'd put herself in the hands of a decent financial manager in the early 50s. But instead she always let the man she was fucking handle her finances, and she never could seem to find one who'd do anything but spend her money like crazy.

June Allyson--that talentless hack. It sounds as if she really wasn't due at the studio in a few years.

Few hours, not few years.

I'm sure if you tried to keep Judy from one of these men who screwed her over financially she'd tell you to go to hell and cut you off as a friend.

No doubt, R40. Nobody told Judy what to do once she reached the age of 20 or so. If they tried, they inevitably ended up regretting it.

As soon as she came of age Judy made her own decisions. And they were generally horrible ones. She always cried victimization, but once she became and adult she was to blame for all of her troubles.

She would have had a screwed up life even if she never became a star. She, like Lize, was obviously in denial about her dad being gay and most of her husbands. She had a horrid mother who basically pimped her out to LBM, not sexually I don't think, but she would have made that poor kid do anything. My guess is that Judy was the family bread winner as obviously it was clear from when she was a baby that she was the one with the talent her mom wished she had herself.

Callas was the same. Absolutely disastrous decisions that no one no matter how much they cared about her could prevent her from making.

[quote]Judy might have been able to retire in the early 60s if she'd put herself in the hands of a decent financial manager in the early 50s. But instead she always let the man she was fucking handle her finances, and she never could seem to find one who'd do anything but spend her money like crazy.

This was a common theme among female celebrities of Judy's era. Lots of them entrusted their finances to their husbands/boyfriends, who had no formal financial management experience and pissed it all away. The women ended up severely financially strapped, when they should've been wealthy. The examples are numerous. The later generations of female entertainers have been MUCH smarter with their money - they leave it in the hands of professionals with impeccable reputations and don't let their husband/boyfriend of the moment get anywhere near it. That's why you don't hear that Sandra Bullock is flat broke after being swindled by Jesse James, or Jennifer Aniston is being forced to sell her house because Justin Theroux took all her money and pissed it away in bad investments. The horrible mistakes made by women of Judy's generation were a huge lesson for women in the entertainment business.

One of the greatest talents and singers of all time. Unfortunately addicted from an early age- but still the movies and recorded record have forever captured her genius. If you don’t know it- look into it. If you can’t see it, what a pity. Beloved by all ages, all over the world in her day and of course by gay men and the entire show business community.

Day was very lucky she got some of her money back. But I bet she should have had a hell of a lot more.

Who keeps trying to throw Callas into this group?

Callas WAS the golddigger.

Poor Judy, the only gold she ever got was a tooth filling.

"She had a horrid mother who basically pimped her out to LBM, not sexually I don't think, but she would have made that poor kid do anything."

Uh, no. You're just reiterating what Judy said and Judy was full of shit most of the time. Ethel Gumm was always concerned about Judy. She lobbied to have the studio give her some slack when it came to those crack of dawn, early morning studio calls. Her argument was that Judy was just a young girl and it was hard for her to get up so early in the morning, so couldn't the studio make an exception and let her come in later than that? The answer was no; Judy was working for MGM and everybody was expected to come in to work at their appointed times. As for her being "pimped out" to L.B. Mayer...well, that's a laugh. Judy WANTED to work for MGM; she wanted to be a movie star at the most prestigious studio of all. Judy actually claimed that Mayer wanted her sexually, which is one of her more outrageous lies. Mayer had no desire to bed pudgy, plain Judy Garland; he called her "my little hunchback", for Christ's sake. No sexual interest there.

Callas had money. She was financially the most successful opera singer of her time getting the highest fees and the most demanding terms. You have it backwards. Saint Jackie was the golddigger.

Callas was like Judy in that she asked too much from her friends, was a huge headache to deal with and self destructive to the point of being beyond help.

Callas also married a very rich man, Signor Meneghini to pave the way to sponsor her career, and later fell for Aristotle Onassis, but apparently not primarily for his money. She apparently really loved him, and he treated her like crap by dumping her and marrying Jackie Kennedy.

How quickly we forget Callas's first husband--even I have forgotten his name, and I read his book years ago.

He poured all of his money into her career, taking her to auditions, buying her expensive costumes, paying expensive teachers and coaches to get her voice into some kind of professional shape. She had no contacts in Italy (and didn't speak the language well at the time), and he used his network to get her stage time. When she used him up entirely--and he was the one who was making her schedules, bargaining with the theatres and so on--she dumped him and moved on with the financial structure he had built for her.

Those two--Onassis and Callas--deserved each other: they were both users.

Judy was also jealous of Deanna Durbin, who became a star first and whose studio Universal treated a lot better than MGM did for her. Durbin's family didn't exploit her but invested her money well, and Durbin retired around age 28, having tired of the Hollywood scene. She lived almost twice as long as Garland, and by nearly all accounts a happy life out of the limelight. Garland couldn't give up performing -- even when calling her "frenemy" Durbin when visiting France and complaining about something or other, Durbin asked her "are you still in that fucking business?" I wish Garland had been treated more humanely at MGM without all the pills and focus on her weight. She would have had a happier life. Even if she had gone another studio instead of renewing her contract (contracts were usually 7 years), she might have had a better time of it.

But Durbin seemed to have been happy living a quiet life in the French countryside far away from Hollywood and the Palace footlights.

Garland was a hopeless performer living for the attention.

Couldn’t sing.

I don't think she was so much spoiled as reacting to the complete lack of freedom she had as a child. She was manipulated, ordered around, insulted, exhausted, unable to have even a moment to herself, and as an adult she sometimes went to the opposite extreme, because it made her feel like she was finally in control of her life and on her own terms.

But Hollywood only wanted people they could use and abuse like cattle, and she was emotionally fragile and dealing with a drug dependency, so being difficult for Judy was a lot harder to handle than someone who was difficult in different ways, like Lana Turner.

If Judy hadn't been massively talented and generally pleasant to be around when she was stable and mostly sober, she would have been abandoned in a second. She would have ended up in tabloids like Barbara Payton, Veronica Lake, or Betty Hutton: drunk, hiding out in a weird job in a weird town, maybe able to make a comeback but probably not.

People say that Judy was impossible to deal with and terrible to everyone, but if she HAD been that bad, she'd have been kicked out of Hollywood by 1942.

What went wrong?

Stage mother, amphetamines, abortions.

She is lucky to have survived as long as she did.

[quote]Nobody told Judy what to do once she reached the age of 20 or so. If they tried, they inevitably ended up regretting it.

Judy'd cut a bitch!

Usually with her jagged teeth.

[Quote]. Beloved by all ages, all over the world in her day and of course by gay men

Typical white eldergay exaggeration. I've lived in various parts of the world and, apart from the US, Canada, and a few other Anglosphere countries, most older people in the rest of the world neither knew nor cared who Judy Garland was. Why do eldergays persist with this ludicrous myth that she was the greatest star of her time? She was already a washed up addict and showbiz discard when she died.

It also amazes me how many excuses eldergays make for her fucked up adult life. Apparently she didn't need to grow up and ever take responsibility for herself or her actions and choices. She's just allowed to wallow in a state of eternal victimhood. I wonder if some eldergays relate to this because they too, at some level, blame society and the pervasive homophobia of the time for everything wrong with their lives instead of accepting that they might have been responsible for a lot of what went wrong with them. Hence the state of shared victimhood and the reverence of the grotesque patron saint of professional victims everywhere, St Judy Gargoyle.

R55, Judy could also be quite cruel when it came to Deanna. Deanna had a withered left arm that didn't heal properly after a childhood accident. According to one of Judy's biographers, Judy would mimic Deanna by posturing her arm and stance like Deanna's. There's even an interview with Jack Paar posted on youtube where Judy does a very brief imitation of Deanna physical imperfection. Then she goes on to talk about how Deanna had one long, low, unibrow when she first met her at Metro, and after she was fired, she went over to Universal, where she was tranformed into a glamorous star. It was an unnecessary put down.

[quote] Why do eldergays persist with this ludicrous myth that she was the greatest star of her time? She was already a washed up addict and showbiz discard when she died.

Because many of them were around when she was a huge star, and you weren't?

Even the Beatles were thrilled to meet her, iirc. I don't know what "greatest star" means but she was considered the greatest all-around entertainer of her time by many. Who do you think was the greatest star of her time, if not her? Maybe Bing Crosby, possibly Sinatra though he wasn't especially beloved until he was old...Martin and Lewis in their prime (in terms of fan base)...

What's the best least-biased Judy bio?

Beyonce is the greatest star and entertainer of our time and she is far more famous and successful than Garland could ever have been. In both her career and in her life. She sells out STADIUMS around the world. No female entertainer has ever been as universally famous, beloved and revered. She works very hard to present excellence. All of her albums debuted at #1. She's beautiful, has a happy homelife, is RICH and talented beyond measure. She will go down as the most accomplished female artist of all time, thought Whitney will always hold the title of the best VOICE and most beloved female singer. Garland was a queer little tweaker with a wobbly vibrato. For gays only.

MGM originally couldn't decide between Judy and Deanna Durbin, and made "Every Sunday" as a kind of extended screentest for both. It's unclear whether MGM let Deanna's contract expire after that or whether it wasn't picked up by accident--accounts vary--but what is true is that Judy 'won' and stayed at MGM. But Deanna went to Universal, made Three Smart Girls, and became a huge star overnight.

Interestingly, one biography says the director of Three Smart Girls originally wanted Judy, and took Deanna when Judy wasn't available for loan-out by MGM. If MGM had dropped Judy instead of Deanna, and Judy had gone to Universal, made Three Smart Girls, and stayed with a studio that treated her more kindly, her whole life might have been different. Winning isn't always winning in the long run.

Actually, R66, MGM had hired Deanna in late 1935 on a short-term contract because they were planning a biopic of early 1900s opera singer Ernestine Schumann-Henck. The idea was to have Durbin portray Schumann-Henck as a child. But Shumann-Henck's health was failing and the project was abandoned (she died in late 1936) . MGM let Durbin's contract expire. She had already begun performing on stage and radio in the Los Angeles area, and producer Joe Pasternak quickly signed her up at Universal. However, her MGM contract included an option to use her for a single project with six months from the end of the contract.

And so, knowing she was being groomed for a big debut at Universal, they exercised the option and brought her back to do the short film with Judy, EVERY SUNDAY, which was released theatrically at the same time at THREE SMART GIRLS.

THREE SMART GIRLS was always planned as a vehicle for Deanna. It made her an instant star, and it surely must have rankled poor Judy to be stuck for years in ugly-duckling supporting roles at MGM while Deanna became an international sensation.

If you say so, R67. The biographies I've read all tell the story's of Deanna's contract with MGM differently from your version (they also differ from each other). In any event, the outcome was the same: Deanna gratefully got out in her late 20s, Judy stayed in and self-destructed.

I always heard that her people turned her into a drug addict because she could not get as thin as they wanted. I think she was completely taken advantage of.

The pills started as a way to lose weight and to give her the energy for MGM's punishing schedule; soon, though, she was using them to self-medicate her moods, which only made her emotional state worse in the long run. She was a serious addict by the time she was 20, and she never really went sober for very long. The closest she got was in the late 40s when she spent 3 months at Peter Bent Brigham hospital drying out, but she gained so much weight that when she got back to California, she had to go on a crash diet for Summer Stock. The addiction and behavior problems started all over again, and that was the end of any real sobriety for Judy.

But all the MGM stars of that era went through that punishing schedule. I guess though Judy was a perfect storm. Starting with great success at such a young age, being talented and a moneymaker beyond anybody's wildest dreams, crushing insecurity because of her family life, comparing herself to beauties like Lamarr and Turner, and her very short stature with a propensity to gain weight quickly. She had no possibility in life to simply be content with herself. Every single thing was a terrible struggle. The occasional super highs followed by long lasting terrible lows. By her mid 40s she already looked like an Egyptian mummy. Look at stars who are in their 50s today.

Judy had the same punishing schedule as the adult stars, though, not as the other child stars. Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland were pushed like adults, in the same way silent movie child stars for Hal Roach studios had been. Generally, though, by the mid 1930s kids were usually not subjected to such harsh schedules anymore. Even Jackie Cooper (who talked about being abused as a child star, too) once said in an interview that when he started doing "only" 4 or 5 movies a year, life became a lot easier than it had been when he was doing dozens of shorts a year.

I also think that she was an outlier in that she was cute but not pretty, and not naturally thin, so someone like Durbin who had a friendly face and was taller and stayed thinner easier simply would never have had the same kind of hostility and scrutiny directed toward her as Judy did. It also helped that Deanna Durbin was a self-satisfied little snot. Judy may have been rude about her in later years, but Judy was insecure and unprotected as a child and it damaged her permanently. Someone like Deanna who felt she was god's gift to entertainment wouldn't have experienced her time as a movie star in the same way.

Durbin sounds like she did everything right: She made her money and got the fuck out.

OP, it happens.

Durbin might have been a very talented self satisfied snot but by the time she was thirty she was happy to live a quiet life in a beautiful place. She felt no need to run herself into the ground.

Christmas Holiday is a personal favorite and unlike anything she and Kelly had ever done before or would do again.

Deanna was very self-assured; I guess you read that as being snotty, but most people interviewed who worked with her called her very easy to work with on set and very generous and fun to be around. The studio treated her like a prize, which she was since she earned them so much money and indeed, saved Universal from bankruptcy.

R62 I've seen the clip of Garland on the Jack Paar Show, and it's evidence that someone even as wonderfully talented as Garland still could be jealous of someone else, even if she didn't dare criticize Durbin's great talent, which as a classical vocalist Garland couldn't compete. Durbin's arm wasn't withered, I mean, you saw it in her films, but it was at a bit of an awkward angle from how it healed as a child, and unless you really looked for it, it wasn't freaky or anything.

If Garland started at MGM around 1935-36 and contracts were 7 years, didn't she have an option to go to another studio in 1942-3? She was a huge star by then. Couldn't someone have negotiated for less pictures a year for her and an easier, less taxing schedule? Instead she renewed and stayed at MGM until 1950 and left pretty much with very real mental and physical health problems.

I've always been incredibly put off by the idea pushed forward by Durbin fans that she is somehow morally superior in all ways because she didn't have to deal with serious childhood trauma and mental illness like Judy Garland did. There's always an implication that Judy somehow deserved it, and Deanna deserved sitting around doing nothing for decades, except making rude comments every so often, because she was a superior human specimen. It's and old-fashioned, Puritan and awfully skewed way of thinking.

There's no need to compare their humanity with each other, and I don't know why you insist on it, other than you're defensive because no one really cares about Deanna Durbin anymore and that hurts your feelings.

Durbin's singing style was popular at the time (see: Snow White, Jeanette MacDonald) but it was a fad, for good or ill, and her acting range was so limited that she only succeeded in a very narrow style of film: light family entertainment in the Universal Studios style, as produced by Joe Pasternak.

Again, that was very popular for about five years, but it's not exactly ageless artistic achievement.

There's a solid discussion to be had here about artistic triumph and its effect on a person, versus the creation of mostly artless entertainment product, but framing it as Judy vs. Deanna is probably not really productive.

[quote] But all the MGM stars of that era went through that punishing schedule.

Not really. Most of them didn't make musicals. Clark Gable had it in his contract that he went home at 5 o'clock (once he was a big star). I don't think Elizabeth Taylor, for ex., went through as punishing a schedule as Judy. (Also Judy made a lot of movies in Technicolor, which required more lights and uncomfortably hot stages.) If you've ever been a performer you know Judy had about the most grueling schedule because of all she was required to do. And because she was popular, it was one film after another. I'm totally unsurprised she was burnt out at MGM at 27 or 28. Also, Margaret O'Brien says by the time she came along, they weren't allowed to work her as hard as they worked Judy.

She was out sick or late a lot and it was difficult to work with someone like that, but honestly, how many of her former co-stars, directors, or the chorus people have ever bad-mouthed her? She wasn't accused of being a diva or demanding. Considering the production delays etc. she sometimes caused, you very rarely hear people who worked with her say anything indicating they hated her.

Just love that someone thinks Beyonce is in the same league as Garland. Elder gays- what do they know? Judy's heyday is prior to my time for the most part. If you cannot see or understand that Garland's voice and talent are for the ages, I feel sorry for you. At best, Beyonce is another Diana Ross or Cher.

There was nothing in posts saying that Deanna was morally better than Judy; it's just that Universal treated their Deanna better than MGM did Judy. Being a fan of both of these stars, I wish Judy had lived a happier life like Deanna had. MGM had never had a teenage female star before, certainly not in the sound era with a teenage musical star, and they didn't want two. So when Mayer said "Get rid of the fat one", traditionally thought to be meaning Judy, but someone misinterpreted it and fired Durbin, the die was cast. Durbin was immediately picked up by Universal, though her contract still extended a few month, which allowed her to be used opposite Garland in the short "Every Sunday". However, Durbin was still billed as "Edna Mae Durbin" in the film, and also, since Garland was staying at MGM, the picture was shot in a way to favor Garland in some of the framing and camera angles. Durbin, after this, made a big splash at Universal, where her first two film were nominated for Best Picture. Her career ended, at her own doing, 12 years later and could have continued. Joe Pasternak at MGM wanted her, Mario Lanza yearned to sing opposite her, and there were talks of having her back to do "Show Boat" at MGM with Deanna was Magnolia and Judy as Julie. So Deanna's style of singing, still employed by Julie Andrews in the 1950s till she stopped singing and by lyric sopranos still today in the opera house, is not out of fashion in some venues.

I'm only saying I wish Judy had been treated as well as Deanna was by her studio for the most part. Deanna made no rude comments about Judy, other than slamming Hollywood in the "Are you still in that fucking business?" story. Universal also made mostly light comedies with songs for her rather than full-blown musicals at MGM. But Deanna was working with great actors like Charles Laughton, Herbert Marshall, Franchot Tone, Robert Cummings, and great character people like Charles Winninger, Alice Brady, etc. from whom she learned and became a very good actress indeed. She only gave one major interview in 1983 in all the time she retired, and she didn't say anything bad about Judy. From bios I've read it seems like musical director Roger Edens treated Judy well, and some of her co-stars, but her mother and the big powers at MGM like Louis B. Mayer really mistreated her, and that's a tragedy. The reason people talk about both Deanna and Judy is that they started at pretty much the same time. Their short film is a historic document of two young, super talented girls who both achieve incredible international stardom.

Deanna did basically nothing to promote her career once she retired to France, and tv stations tended to neglect the Universal studio catalog other than horror films and Abbott and Costello. Yet, public tv showing of Deanna's films in the US and UK had some of the highest rating and she has many views on YouTube. MGM had a steady presence on the Late Late Shows and now TCM, and Judy did TV, a few more films including "A Star is Born", famous stage concerts, etc. before she died, and the annual showings of "Wizard of Oz" alone would have made her known to many, even if people just knew her by the name of Dorothy.

But I don't think it's out of line to compare the two ladies' careers and life trajectories. There's no moral judgment about Judy there, only sadness that she couldn't have kept performing like she wanted, but under better circumstances so she could have lived as happily and as long as Deanna did.

Well I could listen to Judy singing for hours and Deanna for a minute or two. Nothing personal. I just hate opera and high voices or male opera type voices. It is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

Beyonce!!! A star like Judy was or like anyone was. LOL! What can anyone really say to that if you believe it. I mean I hate Babs as, over the years, many of my posts but you can't even compare Beyonce to her or even to Madonna who I also hate, again as over the years many of my posts prove.

Just because these days people who go on tour make obscene amounts of money way, WAY above their level of talent doesn't mean shit. People today will pay for a pile of shit if someone tells them it's worth something.

Many years ago I was in the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. There was this pile of garbage on the floor, roped off, waiting for the maintenance guy to come for it. Morons were gathering around it discussing what it represented. Imagine their faces when the guy came with his broom and swept it up.

[quote]Many years ago I was in the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. There was this pile of garbage on the floor, roped off, waiting for the maintenance guy to come for it. Morons were gathering around it discussing what it represented.

Sure.

[quote] Many years ago I was in the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. There was this pile of garbage on the floor, roped off, waiting for the maintenance guy to come for it. Morons were gathering around it discussing what it represented.

You had me until this.

R76, MGM extended Judy's contract sometime in the late 30s, giving her a big raise in the process. Her contract didn't end until 1945, and at that point she was newly married to Vincente Minnelli, an MGM company man if there ever was one, and was influenced by him and Mayer to renew her contract for another 7 years. She regretted it almost as soon as she signed, and went into an emotional tailspin fueled by drugs and depression that landed her in a mental hospital in 1946 (post-partum depression from Liza was also a contributing factor).

You're right--she should have gotten out of MGM in 1945, gone to Broadway, done a tour, etc., while she was still relatively young and healthy. Not reupped for another 7 years of slavery, but when Judy was in love, she did whatever her husband told her to do. Vincente did whatever MGM told him to do. Judy was still a cash cow for the studio in 1945, and they weren't letting her get away so easily. Deep down, though, she knew she was making a mistake, and she made herself and the studio miserable until they finally canceled that second contract in 1950. They did shake a couple more classic films out of her in the process, though, most notably Easter Parade.

R81 Different people like different styles of music. Deanna Durbin was the favorite movie star/singer of Winston Churchill, Anne Frank and Angela Lansbury and many others adored her back then. I love opera and that type of voice as well as Judy Garland's. I think popular culture nowadays doesn't expose people to the legit kind of singing like Deanna's or other opera singers, like say, Johnny Carson, who used to have lots of opera singers on the "Tonight Show" did. ABC even transposed down Kristin Chenoweth in "The Music Man" in her musical numbers, even though she could sing them easily, yet I guess they were afraid people couldn't deal with soprano high notes. Very bizarre.

Beyonce is talented, but really more of a medium talent who has been hyped to the max by her husband and record company/producers, etc. Mariah Carey had a better voice, though not a very communicative singer, who mainly liked to just show off her voice. Celine Dion has a wonderful voice, though maybe not the warmest voice, but a very high quality voice. Whitney Houston had another great voice, but her record label with Clive Davis for the most part didn't give her good songs to sing. I mean, after her death, I hear songs like "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" played all the time, which is a nice, up-tempo song, but hardly something that represents the great talent Whitney was. Beyonce is kind of like today's Diana Ross with all the glam, but Diana did have something extra even if she didn't have as good a voice as Flo Ballard.

Diana Ross had MUCH better songs than Beyonce.

[quote] I think popular culture nowadays doesn't expose people to the legit kind of singing like Deanna's or other opera singers, like say, Johnny Carson, who used to have lots of opera singers on the "Tonight Show" did. ABC even transposed down Kristin Chenoweth in "The Music Man" in her musical numbers, even though she could sing them easily, yet I guess they were afraid people couldn't deal with soprano high notes. Very bizarre.

Great point. There's so little exposure from an early age in the pop culture realm to concert-type singing. I mean my parents were not exactly fans of it but even they had a few albums by Mario Lanza and Rise Stevens singing pop songs, and my grandfather had a lot of opera albums. Universal had the Durbin movies, MGM had Eddy and MacDonald and later Kathryn Grayson, and Jane Powell was like a second Durbin for a while at MGM. In the TV era there was the Bell Telephone Hour that often had classical stuff. I watched the Young People's Concerts when I was a kid, with Leonard Bernstein.

This is hardly the only kind of music I like or listen to, I listen to pop, pop punk, hip hop, and metal, too. But the point is, I don't tune out on the classical music or the older-style pop music like a lot of younger people do now because they have had zero exposure to it.

Let's put it this way gang- since others have been bring Callas into this mess of a thread. When Callas was asked (in her prime) who she though the greatest singer in the world today is (it was the 1950s) she responded instantly, Judy Garland. As I sad before, if you have listened to her at her peak and healthy, and you don't get it, I feel sorry for you.

Deanna Durbin had a nice little voice that made her a star for a while. She did not have one of the most distinctive and magnificent voices of all time. Judy Garland did.

Aretha Franklin named Judy Garland as her favorite singer.

Deanna Durbin hardly had a "nice little voice". She was trained by Andres de Segurola for the Met Opera who had performed in the premiere of the Puccini opera "Girl of the Golden West" at the Met, so Durbin had a link directly to Puccini. Durbin could also sing pop and jazz tunes, in addition to classical, something Jane Powell could do (also Jane Powell was a great dancer, capable of dancing with Fred Astaire and Gene Nelson!). Yes, Judy also danced with Astaire, I know. Love Judy as well, very distinctive, communicative warm voice. You don't need to diminish Deanna who was the highest paid woman in the U.S. for a number of years in the 1940s to build up Judy. Judy will always be Dorothy and have her "Live at Carnegie Hall" concert to listen to, as well as her other famous films, plus Liza, Lorna and Joey, Minelli, Sid Luft, etc. stories for years to come.

Charlie has terrible taste in everything, especially female singers. Just ignore that fruity old bag. Let him feel sorry for ya.

And you 99 are an anonymous troll :)

Direct comparison of Judy and Deanna: I'd have picked Judy too. For sheer charisma, she pushes Deanna right off the screen.

Deanna got away and managed to live a long life. Good for her. I'm sure looking back, Judy would've traded places in a heartbeat

R93 Deanna was prettier, so Judy felt she needed to attack her on Jack Paar years later.

Deanna was so good, the camera could afford to cut away from her to film other characters' delighted reaction to her singing. As for charisma, she had plenty. Don't get me wrong, Garland was fabulous too.

[quote]At best, Beyonce is another Diana Ross or Cher.

Diana Ross is a first class singer and Oscar nominated actress. And is one of the best stage performers to grace the business . There was a reason she was called the Ebony Streisand, even though she could mop the floor with Streisand's ass when it comes to liver performing.

Ethel Mertz used to have fun reading Lucy's mixed typing of "lover" and "Liver" too.

Diana Ross also gave a much better performance in Lady Sings the Blues than obnoxious poseur Streisand did in Funny Girl. It's hard to imagine how Streisand became such a star, though I've seen her first couple of TV specials and she was quite the singer at the beginning.

Young Judy Garland was such a butch little thing, who knew? Thanks R93.

Much as I like Streisand in "Funny Girl", she did rather graft the character of Fanny Brice onto her own personality (including her own growing diva-dom as Brice became a star), while Diana Ross really did become a different character as Billie Holliday in "Lady Sings the Blues". Both were effective, though.

You really have trouble seeing how Babs became a star in Funny Girl? She's pretty spectacular throughout and then when she sang My Man at the end she had the first audiences murmuring to each other it was so electrifying. And these were people who had seen her TV shows when they were first presented and had her albums. She was already a Broadway, TV and recording star but she managed to catapult it to a whole other level. Of course having William Wyler as your director was certainly a dream for any actor or actress. He even got Charlton Heston an Oscar!

There is a reason why Ross had a fascination with Streisand and recorded Streisand's songs -- and not the other way around.

Ross was a better live performer, but Streisand's voice blew Miss Ross out of the water.

Diana Ross herself would tell you her voice was never at Streisand's level. Ross didn't have the greatest or most powerful voice, but what she DID have was an EXTREMELY commercial voice. It was perfect for pop music.

This thread should be called "More than I ever really wanted to know about Deanna Durbin"

These comments from Zellweger's l o n g interview in Vulture today are somewhat relevant. She's pretty quirky and funny. She's telling a bit about the boys she's loved. And talking about Garland.

[quote]We sally forth onto a new topic, something I’ve been wanting to not just bring up with her all day but understand for half my life: Why do certain women become gay icons? Judy Garland is the Ur-example of this bizarrely predictable routine, the mother of all troubled stars, both fragile and steely — catnip for the gays. And aren’t all gay men just a little mortified when they realize they actually really do love Judy Garland? And Barbra Streisand? Ugh. And yet we relate to them on some ineffably cosmic level: the suffering, the need to put on a big show for everyone. Turns out, in the Venn diagram of Judy-Renée, you can add gay icon to the shaded-in area. From my unscientific polling, I have learned that most gay men love Renée Zellweger and are rooting for her … because: Roxie Hart, Bridget Jones, you had me at hello.

[quote]Given that Zellweger is playing Judy Garland, this comes up. “In England, I was speaking with this gentleman who edits this wonderful periodical and he said to me, ‘What is your relationship to the gay community?’ And I thought, Oh gosh, here we go!” She had been asked these questions during a press junket a couple weeks earlier and wasn’t quite prepared. “Now I just sound like a jerk, because I don’t think about it, which kind of sounds like, Oh, you’re just indifferent to it. And it’s completely the opposite! I had a very hard time answering his question. And then I thought, Well, what isn’t it? I’m not a wife of, I’m not a daughter of, and I’m not a sister of or a mother of” any gay men, she says. “But I’m everything else. Everything else! I’m the obvious: I’m an ex-girlfriend of, I’m a best friend of, I’m a mentor of, I’m a student of, I’m a client of, a partner of, I’m a neighbor, I’m a boss, a collaborator. I’m a patient. I’m a customer. I’m a constituent!”

[quote]It’s interesting that both Judy Garland and Liza Minnelli married gay men, I say, and here she makes the most complicated and hilarious face imaginable, one that seems to say, all at once, Haven’t we all? And Go figure! “Cute’s cute,” she says. “Handsome is handsome! Sweet is sweet. If it works … I mean … I mean! Sometimes it just doesn’t really matter. It just dudn’t. If there’s a spark, it just is, and who needs to explain it?” (At the moment, she’s single, after a long relationship with a musician; her previous high-profile boyfriends include Bradley Cooper, Kenny Chesney, Jim Carrey, and George Clooney.)

Judy may have given us Liza (and to a lesser degree) Lorna but Deanna also gave us her son, Dick, the current Senator from Illinois.

^^ Funny but not true.

[quote]It’s interesting that both Judy Garland and Liza Minnelli married gay men, I say, and here she makes the most complicated and hilarious face imaginable, one that seems to say, all at once, Haven’t we all? And Go figure! “Cute’s cute,” she says. “Handsome is handsome! Sweet is sweet. If it works … I mean … I mean! Sometimes it just doesn’t really matter. It just dudn’t. If there’s a spark, it just is, and who needs to explain it?” (At the moment, she’s single, after a long relationship with a musician; her previous high-profile boyfriends include Bradley Cooper, Kenny Chesney, Jim Carrey, and George Clooney.)

Zellwegger was also married to a gay man. I wonder why she doesn’t just admit it? Actually she kind of did without saying it.

R99, Judy's bouncy, livewire, tomboy energy in her early performances is something to see. Sadly, it had almost been worked and pilled out of her by the time she turned 18. Even in Oz, her light is dimmer. She was such a happy, confident little thing in her first films. Shows you what could have been if MGM had treated her better.

r79 True, Beyoncé is an uncool and humorless version of late 70s Cher at best.

Deanna's grandson Joshua David was one of the co-creators the High Line in NYC, a great park built on an old railway that goes down a few miles from the Jacob Javits Center down to the new Whitney Museum. Very cool.

[quote]Deanna was so good, the camera could afford to cut away from her to film other characters' delighted reaction to her singing.

Reaction shots in musicals are used to break up the monotony of a filmed performance that doesn't have a lot of movement. You don't need reaction shots in a Lubitsch musical, for example, because Jeanette MacDonald and Maurice Chevalier (or whoever is in the scene) are acting as they sing. When there's a static performance, however, no matter how lovely it might be in real life, it looks flat and dull on screen unless there is something to break it up. Reaction shots do a great job of that.

They also serve various purposes, such as reminding viewers who in the film is watching the performance, something that is used to great effect in IT'S A DATE, for example. A reaction shot also helps to subtly nudge the viewer to a certain reaction -- if everyone in the audience is raving, you'll know you should be impressed, too. It also allows the viewer to feel more like they are part of the audience of the actual performance, rather than the audience watching another audience watching a performance. It draws them in.

There really isn't any reason for a reaction shot to "prove" that the camera doesn't "need" to be on a star because they're so awesome they can be forgotten for a second. That's not how it works.

In defense of the poster who claimed a pile of rubbish on the floor of the MOMA was being discussed as a work of art I did see once a corner of a floor there with a pile of wrapped candies. Like you would get out of those Woolworth bins. Visitors were invited to take a candy like you were in a doctors waiting room. The candy would then be replenished as the pile was depleted. I wonder how much the artist got for this installation.

R113, I saw that at MOCA in LA. It was a big white room with nothing but a pile of Baci candies in the corner. I also saw a bunch of trash from a park or some outdoor event swept in a corner, with the push broom and dustpan thrown in, encircled by low chain link fences, and I honestly thought "Why couldn't they clean this up before opening??" until I realized it was an art installation.

." I wonder how much the artist got for this installation."

Sounds like something Yoko Ono would do. One of her exhibits featured an apple on a pedestal. I can't remember how money she wanted for it. John Lennon loved it. He said it made him aware of the "humor" in her work immediately; you were paying for the experience of watching an apple decompose. I'm surprised she didn't put some of her shit on the pedestal. She actually DID use her urine in vials in some project she did. That is "art?" Not in my opinion.

I'm glad you fellas are all still talking about me because I do enjoy being a timeless iconic superstar!

My mother was not helpful in persistently suggesting I get a lobotomy, but she did manage my money rather well. Still, she was impossible!

The only person who was truly loyal to me, asking for nothing but my talents and offering nice paychecks when I was down and out, was Bing Crosby. Word is he was no slouch in the pain in the ass department himself.

I actually wanted to finish "Annie Get Your Gun" once Buzz Berkeley got the boot, but I was just exhausted. I wasn't even that late or absent that often really, and I recorded everything beautifully, it's just with poor Howard Keel falling off his horse and Buzz's footage being so unusable, and my dear Frank Morgan dropping dead, we were all just cursed. Oh, well.

Sorry, wrong link.

Mr. Mayer said computers were a waste of time!

[quote]Mr. Mayer said computers were a waste of time!

John Mayer said no such thing. Computers allowed him to hook up with Miss Shawn Mendes.

"My mother was not helpful in persistently suggesting I get a lobotomy, but she did manage my money rather well. Still, she was impossible!"

Judy dear, you're having another one of your drug hallucinations. Your mother never suggested you 'get a lobotomy." I think it's time for you to take another "rest" in a nice, clean sanitarium again.

Just your regulation thread deterioration around reply 120

Awards go to mediocrities. For the truly gifted artist the love of one's fans is the true reward.

We need some Deanna to perk up this thread, with Marcia Mae Jones behind her.

Click on R122 is you want your glycemic index to go off the charts and go into a diabetic coma.

That reflects a different time, when folks weren't jaded, and they were open to a bit of innocence in their entertainment. Though, of course, there were lampoons in that time of little girls riding bikes and singing in cartoons back then as well since the Durbin films were so popular.

Elizabeth Taylor handled her own money; she was a very smart and successful business woman.

Elizabeth Taylor handled her own money; she was a very smart and successful business woman.

Elizabeth also knew the value of jewelry.

That clip at R122 looks like what they'd show on movie night at the Hitler Youth summer camp.

Aber Sie sprechen kein Deutsch!

Her father died when she was just becoming a success. His death was emotionally devastating to her. She adored him and she was his favorite daughter. Had he lived, he would’ve provided a stable foundation she desperately needed. Her mother, Ethel, was a viper, but to her credit, she recognized Judy’s incredible talent and groomed her for stardom. Yet, she betrayed Judy.

How did she betray her r130?

Let's be honest: what DIDN'T go wrong for Judy?

[quote]Judy dear, you're having another one of your drug hallucinations. Your mother never suggested you 'get a lobotomy." I think it's time for you to take another "rest" in a nice, clean sanitarium again.

I guess you hadn't heard my comments from 1960, where I do think I sound quite candid and convincing.

"Her mother, Ethel, was a viper, but to her credit, she recognized Judy’s incredible talent and groomed her for stardom. Yet, she betrayed Judy."

Actually Ethel Gumm was very protective of her. Why did Judy Garland rake her mother over the coals to the very end of her life? Why did she drive her mother into an early grave by shunning her and despising her? Well, one plausible theory is this. Stardom was taking it's toll on young Judy; one of her lovers (I think Joseph Mankiewicz) suggested she go into psychoanalysis to help with the stress and pressure of being a famous, overworked movie star. During analysis she was told that most people's problems in life stem from their relationship with their mother. Aha! So THAT'S it! SHE'S the one to blame for everything that goes wrong in my life! Judy pounced on that notion and ran with it. Although she also assigned hate and blame for her problems to L.B Mayer, MGM, and Sid Luft, she tended to focus mostly on her poor mother. Ethel Gumm certainly was ambitious for her daughter, but her other daughter Virginia and others who actually knew her refute Judy's tales of abject cruelty at the hands of Ethel. Judy was a typical drug addict; she lied a lot and refused to accept responsibility for her own bad decisions. I don't know how anyone can take her rantings seriously.

I doubt Ethel Gumm was all that bad. She was coping with having married a gay or bi husband who supposedly liked to come on to high school boys (the reason they apparently were asked to leave Grand Rapids, Minnesota, and went to California). Maybe it helped to be away on the road with the girls (Judy and her sisters, The Gumm Sisters). I remember reading in Gerold Frank's Judy bio how Judy has asthma as a child and Ethel would put Judy in the back seat of the car and drive around the desert half the night until Judy could sleep. That doesn't strike me as a viper. (By the way, in those days, amphetamines used to be given to children with asthma, to help them breathe. Often wondered if this might have been Judy's first encounter with them.)

Deanna was Mike Nichols first choice for Mrs. Robinson.

Actually it was Dodo Day. Doris would have been great. Deanna was considered for Eliza Doolittle though a few years before, as she had been mentioned for anything with a soprano role since she had retired, from "Show Boat" to "Kiss Me, Kate" to "Guys and Dolls".

I don't want to derail the thread, but since we're including Deanna...

I've never understood why Kathryn Grayson was cast in so many musicals: she was definitely a soprano, but the ugliest, thinnest, most shrill soprano I've ever heard.

That is all.

Since Louis B. Mayer was livid about losing Deanna to Universal, he set about trying to get a young soprano like her for his studio. So enter Jane Powell and Kathryn Grayson. Personally, I think Powell was radiant -- beautiful, lovely voice able to do classical and popular (like Deanna), plus she was a very good actress and also, a true dancer able to partner, among others, Fred Astaire and Gene Nelson. They even remade a few of Durbin's movie vehicles over at MGM for her. On the other hand, Kathryn Grayson, to my ears, just wasn't up to Powell's or Durbin's level. Oh, she's probably at her best in "Kiss Me, Kate" where she's supposed to be annoying anyway, but she and Powell were left to Joe Pasternak at MGM to try to duplicate the success he had with Deanna at Universal that he had done before he moved to MGM. But I didn't really care for Grayson's voice that much; it was fairly shrill. It's a shame Pasternak couldn't persuade Durbin to un-retire and go to MGM where she would have flourished in the musicals department. But to answer your question, that's why Grayson was hired at MGM.

Durbin was important to Universal in a way that Garland wasn't to MGM. Universal was basically a poverty row operation, only slightly more respectable in the 30s than Columbia but w/o Harry Cohn's shrewdness. Judy and and Ethel most likely wanted the prestige of MGM; however, MGM had so many stars they could make everyone compete--multiple leading men, seemingly interchangable supporting players.

[Quote]Let's be honest: what DIDN'T go wrong for Judy?

Things always go wrong for professional victims who somehow manage to find something or someone to blame for all their fuckups. And Judy Gargoyle was the patron saint of such professional victims everywhere.

Grayson is very good in Showboat. I know it's fashionable to hate on it but there are some pretty great things in it. She's especially lovely in the excerpt in the Till the Clouds Go By segment with Tony Martin. Nobody can sing Jerome Kern with that kind of emotion anymore. It's popular music too far back in time.

And Lena Horne wouldn't have worked. The whole point is that people automatically think a woman is white and have to be stunned that she has black blood in her. They're not supposed to think 'I knew it all the time!'

[quote] And Lena Horne wouldn't have worked. The whole point is that people automatically think a woman is white and have to be stunned that she has black blood in her. They're not supposed to think 'I knew it all the time!'

Exactly. Don't know why more folks don't realize this.

I like Kathryn in Anchors Aweigh. Like how she sang Jealousy and the other numbers. She was beautiful and charming and it was a kind of youthful peak for her, in my opinion. It was a good role for her. She really couldn't act at that time, but later on she got better, and was very good in Show Boat and Kiss Me Kate. Also she was stacked, don't know if this has been noticed by anyone else. She had quite a rack on her!

Here's Judy and Kathryn at a Jerome Kern night at the Hollywood Bowl. The other night I was watching an insta story of Lorna Luft at the Hollywood Bowl, singing the Trolley Song. I wanted it to be good but it wasn't.

Joe Mankiewicz was indeed the one who got Judy into analysis, but he also needed no prompting to speak candidly about Ethel Gumm (later Ethel Gilmore) and what a complete nightmare of a mother she was.

I trust Judy in that interview above which ends with her not bad-mouthing Busby Berkeley but instead defending his talent, yet openly bemoaning all the benzedrine taken during his shoots and blaming no one for her getting taken off of "Annie Get Your Gun."

I think after she was banned from the lot in 1943 and divorced her second husband Will Gilmore, with whom she'd been having an affair before her husband Frank died, Ethel lost her identity and got worse mentally and emotionally.

Mankiewicz seems like a real windbag, so full of himself, such a pontificator. A dad/husband in his 40s who slept with all these young women in their 20's. All of whom fell in love with him, including Judy. He was "helping" them with their issues, but had no intention of being with any of them permanently. He also talked a lot about his wife's mental problems, her insecurity, her nagging - all the time he was screwing the young beauties of Hollywood left and right. Great writer but insufferable.

I don't think Ethel Gumm was having an affair with Will Gilmore before Frank Gumm's death. Her daughter Virginia said Gilmore had had a crush on her but she always brushed him off. After Frank's death, alone and aging, she began to find her more attractive. She DID marry him on her birthday, which coincidentally was the same day Frank Gumm died, which was indeed in poor taste. Judy thought that her "marrying that awful man on the day my Daddy died" was unforgivable. At any rate, the marriage only lasted a little longer than a year. Gilmore supposedly told her that he would be the one handling all the finances from now on, including Judy's money. Ethel basically said like hell you will. Anyway, none of her daughters liked Gilmore and the marriage was a failure.

Some trivia; poor little Joey Luft was named after Joe Mankiewicz. Mankiewicz was one of Judy's more important lovers, a major influence..

It's not technically true that Judy never received an Oscar. She won the Academy Juvenile Award in 1939. The subsequent history of that mini-oscar is somewhat interesting.

Just a small modern observation: current medical advisors suggest that teenagers need 10 hours of sleep, until they stop growing. And those that don't get enough sleep (which today means nearly everyone) risk damaging their brain permanently. It's pretty clear to me, this happened to Judy Garland. She simply could not function as an adult. It was the drugs, yes, but it was the brutal schedule that really killed her, and killed her spirit too.

[quote] Just a small modern observation: current medical advisors suggest that teenagers need 10 hours of sleep, until they stop growing. And those that don't get enough sleep (which today means nearly everyone) risk damaging their brain permanently.

You have an interesting point, but on the other hand, I'm curious how many teenagers have ever gotten 10 hours of sleep as a rule? I know I never did (my teen years weren't too recent). I went to prep school where I boarded and one of my friends was always coming in and waking me up to talk about some "super important" nonsense half the night (actually it was kind of like Judy calling everyone in the middle of the night. lol). It was pretty much a given so I probably slept 5 hours or 6 tops. I'm a little weird but not brain-damaged, though.

It's just a risk. And you may not know if you are damaged, or not. ;)

But Judy Garland really never overcame that early period at MGM.

[quote] It's just a risk. And you may not know if you are damaged, or not. ;)

True. :) I know my sleep pattern never was normal after that... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Judy and Mickey were worked so hard, I mean you can even see onscreen at times how manic it was. I think that was very bad for her, as was starving her to look thin on camera. I wonder how much the fact that it was the Depression played into it. I mean: so many people were out of work or poor, I'm sure her parents and the parents of many other child and teen actors in that particular decade were different than they'd be today, partly because making good money at a time when most people were out of work was kind of a miracle. I don't think they thought about what getting a studio contract could mean in a negative sense. The idea that a talented kid could get fame and fortune in a time of great poverty must have seemed like something you didn't question.

She was lucky. She had it ALL. I know kids who'd die to have Judy Garland's childhood!

Judy won what was called a "Juvenile Oscar." It was a miniature Oscar, about half the size of the standard Oscar. They weren't given out every year; they were only awarded to juvenile actors who had major acting successes (like Deanna Durbin and Mickey Rooney) or a particularly good performance. The last time they were presented was at the 33rd Academy Awards in 1961. Other winners of the Juvie Oscar were Shirley Temple, Margaret O'Brien, Peggy Ann Garner, Bobby Driscoll, Hayley Mills,

They should have kept awarding the Juvenile Oscars. Little kids should really not be competing with adult actors; it just doesn't seem right. They should have an award of their own.

But it worked out so well for Tatum.

"But it worked out so well for Tatum."

It certainly did. Worked out well for Anna Paquin, too. But they were both undeserving of the Oscar. Both times I think they won because Academy members thought "let's give it to the cute little girl!"

She was better than Just a cute little girl in Paper Moon. Did you really think that? It wouldn't have been the same film with just any cute little girl. I doubt people would have voted to give an Academy Award her just because she was cute.

"I doubt people would have voted to give an Academy Award her just because she was cute."

Oh, come on. Madeline Kahn deserved an Oscar a million times more than Tatum O'Neal. And Candy Clark's performance in "American Graffiti" was much more deserving of an Oscar, too.

R157 NOt going to start debating who deserved Oscars or not and it's not even anything to do with Judy Garland

R157, Sylvia Sidney was nominated Best Supporting Actress, too. She was a phenomenal actress whose career spanned from the 1920s until her death.

Was Sidney in the audience?! God how horrible.

It's the reason Douglas didn't go to the Oscars when he was nominated. He felt it would have been too humiliating being beaten by a child. So he wins and doesn't get his Oscar handed to him in front of millions which would have been a wonderful way to cap off his career.

How does anybody lose to Grace Kelly? She has to be the worst actress who was a star in the history of old Hollywood. And yes I'm including Lana Turner!

R109- that’s wonderful. Judy got hooked on speed and barbiturate very young, and eventually was alcoholic as well. She probably was bipolar and or may have had borderline personality disorder. Who knows. She never learned how to take care of herself in the most basic ways- food, clothing l, finance- all was done for her by her mother early then husbands, studio, agents, hired minders, and even her children. Her life was much of the time harrowing and downright hour to hour dollar to dollar in her last several years. When Joey and Lorna fked to their father in about 66- she went totally done the tubes. She burned through all her friends and finally family. But she remained at her core (although blotted out in the last few years) a nice, smart, and raucous woman who had as much talent as anyone ever has had. And we have a record of it. Her children clearly love and loved her so you know she knew how to love. But the voice and that magnetic personality on film and stage are her legacy. And all that matters.

Many of the same things that happened with Mickey Rooney.

Put to work too young. No education. Lost in a world when their contracts ended.

Then TV happened, the movie industry went south, and they were really SOL.

Mickey Rooney was a survivor. A horrible person, but a survivor.

Judy was always fragile. The only way she might have had a long, happy life is if she'd stayed in Grand Rapids, stayed obscure, and married young to a strong, capable, caretaking husband. Of course, then the world would have lost out on the genius of Judy Garland.

"The only way she might have had a long, happy life is if she'd stayed in Grand Rapids, stayed obscure, and married young to a strong, capable, caretaking husband."

I think that might be true of many stars; if they had not gone into show business they would have been a lot better off.

I don't think Judy would ever have stayed in the hood even if she had never touched a drug. If she was bipolar, and I think she was- her mania would have driven her elsewhere. Judy was not an introvert. I think her manic moods had as much to do with her talent and sort of blind ambition as her depressive and dark side.

She was an out of control lush. She would get really drunk and trash hotel rooms. Eventually no hotel in New York would rent her a room.

Not the kind of rich person's hotels she wanted to stay in anyway.

It's hard to know what a happily obscure Frances Gumm's mental health would have been. She started drugs so early in life that it had to have damaged her developing brain. Also, by being both enslaved and coddled by the Studio, she ended up in a state of perpetual adolescence. And as much as everyone blames Ethel, the fact that Frank Gumm couldn't quit openly chasing after young men caused the instability in the family, got them chased out of Grand Rapids AND Lancaster, and helped fuel Ethel's determination to make her girls famous. If Frank had kept it in his pants or at least been more discreet, Judy might never have been a star and might have had a happier life.

I believe Bob Mackie who worked on her TV show said she trashed her clothes.

Saul Chaplin the musical arranger and movie musical producer said he was sitting next to Judy once at a party and she threw her head into his lap sobbing and saying how worthless she was. He decided he was having none of that and stayed clear of her.

She'd stay in hotels and not pay the bill. They'd tell her she had to pay up or leave and she'd sneak out without paying, sometimes with her children in tow. She'd tell them to put out as many layers of clothes as they could (they couldn't be seen leaving with suitcases) and they'd slip out, leaving the hotel with the unpaid bill. Lorna and Liza said that she would make situations like that "fun." Yes, it was such fun to screw people over by skipping out on your overdue bill. Judy was incredibly irresponsible. It's no wonder she was always broke.

She’s fine,she sends her love!

Her mother, herself, and her daughter were all married to gay men. There has to be some sort of pathology involved as to why three generations of women would do that.

R174 Good taste?

Help with picking out her clothes and interior design suggestions and helping with the cooking?

R174 Do you think Ethel knew Frank was gay when she married him?

Really how can women not know and even if Ethel didn't, Judy and Liza sure as shit did.

A sexually experienced woman would know if a man is gay. Back then most women would have had nothing to compare him to.

R179 True. As for Judy and Liza, is it that unusual if you love your dad to fall in love with guys who remind you of him? How old was Liza when she married Peter Allen anyway? Would she have been sophisticated enough to know he was gay? Was Jack Haley Jr also gay? Was David Rose (Judy's first husband) gay? Always wondered.

Liza was 21 when she married Peter Allen. The fucked-up thing is, Judy introduced them and actively encouraged the relationship. You gotta wonder what she was thinking--there's no way Judy didn't know Peter was gay. Interestingly, once they were married, Peter acted as gatekeeper and often kept Judy from reaching Liza on the telephone with hysterical demands. Whoever he was fucking on the side, he did Liza a solid there.

It’s a clear case of severe daddy-issues combined with a mistrust of men that results in these women marrying obvious homos.

OP must you pick through Judy's bones? Hasn't already been through enough?

We are archeologists examining and sifting through a long lost beautiful and barbaric civilization.

Even though it's one person who happened to work at MGM and play the Palace.

Judy blamed it MGM’s red schoolhouse. The child and teenaged movie stars attended it. She said that Elizabeth Taylor, Lana Turner, Mickey Rooney, and Judy herself wound up nutty and kooky. She had a terrific sense of humor.

It was MGMs little red dolls that fucked her up, not the little red schoolhouse.

So does anyone know if Jack Haley Jr or David Rose were gay? Or Sid Luft?

By the way, did anyone else read the book by Stevie Phillips, Judy & Liza & Robert & Freddie & David & Sue & Me...: A Memoir? One of the many interesting things in the book was how Stevie (Liza's manager, and previously an assistant to Judy - iirc) had Liza's wedding at her apartment because Judy couldn't afford to do it (I think?) and Vincente didn't spring for it either (weird) though both attended.

I don't know about Jack Haley Jr., but there have never been any gay rumors around David Rose or Sid Luft.

The real question is, if Judy Garland had grown up healthy and mature, would she still have been Judy Garland, great victim and artist? I think it's very possible that she wouldn't have become what she became, that vulnerability AND steely strength.

Being a miserably unhappy person and very arrogant coming from having a superinferiority complex can be helpful in becoming legendary. But then you better have an amazing talent otherwise you're just a shitty person.

R189 Thanks.

Did Garland ever resort to prostitution during her last decade when she was broke and fleeing hotels without paying her bills?

Soft hooking, I think. She sometimes would live off of people (even fans) and have sex with them while staying with them.

"Did Garland ever resort to prostitution during her last decade when she was broke and fleeing hotels without paying her bills?"

Who would have paid for her? Nobody, that's who. But after alienating all her friends, she got involved with unsavory types who would help her with her eternal money woes. People who were attracted to her celebrity (Wow! I'm screwing the legendary Judy Garland!) got involved with her. For a time she was engaged to yet another younger gay man, somebody named Tom Green. He helped her financially and I think his parents did too. Financially destitute again, he tried to obtain money for her by pawning a couple of her rings. For this she had him arrested. Needless to say, their engagement didn't work out. In another case a female fan helped her out financially and their relationship became sexual. But as far as I know Judy never resorted to prostitution.

I, too, watch that clip of a very young Judy and think how incredibly self-assured she seems there. Had she not been forced to take drugs to function, who knows what a long, happy career she might have had. The type of career Sophie Tucker had, perhaps. A big-voiced singer who told risqué jokes and had a fun, bawdy old time of it with her audience.

Here's Sid Luft's recollection of Judy's visit with Deanna (he was traveling with Judy in Europe at the time): "Judy also looked up Deanna Durbin, her old costar, who lived with her French doctor husband in a semi rural setting near Paris. Judy returned after the visit with a soft, melancholy glint to her eye. She related how happy Deanna appeared, so unpretentious, slightly overweight. We thought maybe we'd missed the boat somewhere."

That's a nice story, but in truth, Judy and Sid wouldn't have stayed out of the spotlight even if they'd been made independently wealthy. In later years, when Judy would visit the quiet homes of well-off friends, she couldn't stay for more than a short while before becoming bored and restless. Marry her to a nice doctor and plop her in a semi-rural setting, and she'd be pumped full of Benzedrine and climbing the walls within hours.

The dame was born and bred for the pills.

They was her life force.

Judy and pills just go together.

That reminds me. What ever happened to the poster Judy Pills Garland? Does anyone know?

Too many benzos, R200.

[quote]then you better have an amazing talent otherwise you're just a shitty person

Truer words...

It's hard to know. Judy's chemical makeup was obviously changed (for the worse) by being fed pills at so young an age, before she was grown and before her brain had fully formed. Her talent survived the onslaught, but her personality didn't. Given how she seems in that wonderful clip of her when young, I tend to think if she'd have been left to be her own self--slightly overweigh, as was her tendency, and free of pills and grueling schedules--she might have lived a long and happy life.

Booze & Drugs

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Judy Garland: what went right?

Well her talent does go for a lot. And she sure wears better than Jolson who was the biggest star of his time. Unimaginable really because somebody like me who loves old time performers finds him as obnoxious as they come. Of course it doesn't help that everyone in the business hated him.