Are Brits considered Europeans? Will they be after Brexit?

Traditionally, Britain was "Britain", and to Britons, Europe was "over there". Until Ted Heath signed them up to the trade consortium, and even for a long time after, to call the British "Europeans" was a gaffe that only foreigners made.

Then as the EU grew in power and reach, the British government, BBC and academic research began to refer to Britain as part of Europe. This was a linguistic change that was paralleled by the government, media and academic institutions across Britain and Europe referring to the EU as "Europe". This is a misnomer as not all European countries are members of the EU.

Dearest O. P.... Allow me to explain how continents work....

They will be considered South Americans after Brexit, Rose.

It's conceivable the r1 that post Brexit the British would no longer be considered Europeans. Of course there will be people like r2 who will continue to think ethnic nomenclature is determined solely by continental convention - by which definition Israelis are Asian.

[quote] It's conceivable the [R1] that post Brexit the British would no longer be considered Europeans.

No, it is not, except by an idiot.

The End.

Is Hawaii considered part of America? Yes, even though it's a separate island in the middle of the ocean.

Is Ireland considered part of Europe? Yes., even though it's an independent country and a separate island off the mainland and geography dictates it is so.

Is Iceland considered part of Europe? Yes, even though it's an independent country and a separate island off the mainland and geography dictates it is so.

Is Malta considered part of Europe? Yes, even though it's an independent country and a separate island off the mainland and geography dictates it is so.

Is Scotland considered part of Europe? Yes, because the people consider their country part of Europe and geography dictates it is so.

Is Wales considered part of Europe? Yes, because the people consider their country part of Europe and geography dictates it is so.

Is Great Britain including England considered part of Europe? Yes. because it's geography dictates that it's part of Europe.

The only reason that England sometimes thinks it's not part of Europe is due to snobbishness--thinking that it's some special entity. But it's not and that way of thinking is fading away.

And Great Britain including England will still be considered European even after Brexit. It just won't be be part of the EU for financial and trade reasons, but that doesn't change the geography of where Great Britain is located--within the defining boundaries of the Europe.

Geographically, England is a part of Europe. ... The UK is situated off the northwestern coast of the European mainland. Of the four countries, only Northern Ireland shares a land border with another country, Ireland. England, just as the rest of the UK, is located in the continent of Europe.

Great Britain is an island in the North Atlantic Ocean off the northwest coast of continental Europe. With an area of 209,331 km2 (80,823 sq mi), it is the largest of the British Isles, the largest European island, and the ninth-largest island in the world.

What about Greenland, R8? Much bigger than Great Britain.

[quote] Greenland (Greenlandic: Kalaallit Nunaat, pronounced [kalaːɬit nunaːt]; Danish: Grønland, pronounced [ˈkʁɶnˌlænˀ]) is an autonomous country of the Kingdom of Denmark, located between the Arctic and Atlantic oceans, east of the Canadian Arctic Archipelago. [bold]Though physiographically a part of the continent of North America, Greenland has been politically and culturally associated with Europe (specifically Norway and Denmark, the colonial powers, as well as the nearby island of Iceland) for more than a millennium.[/bold]

Great Britain, Ireland, Iceland, Malta and Cypress are geographically part of Europe.

Hispaniola, Cuba, Jamaica, Trinidad and Greenland are geographically part of the Americas;

Japan, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Java and The Philippines are geographically part Asia

Madagascar, Mauritius, the Seychelles, Cape Verde, Zanzibar and the Canary Islands (Spain) are geographically part of Africa.

Europe has always been 'over there' to the Brits and they often talk about 'Europeans' as aliens. They still 'go to Europe' on holiday.

Exactly no one thinks of Greenland as being part of North America.

The real question is, after Brezit, how long there will be a Great Britain at all - Scottish independence will certainly be up for discussion again and I am worried that there will be renewed “Troubles” in Northern Ireland.

I agree with R1 it is only very recently that Britain was considered part of Europe. While geographically they are part of Europe, culturally they aren't. Just like culturally, there is no Europe. There are major differences between the Nordic countries, and France, and Germany, and Italy, and Spain, etc... Europe is made up many countries with centuries of their own history and culture. There is nothing wrong with creating a super-national organization like the EU, the problem is trying to take it from a trading organization into a federalized unitary pan-European state. It isn't like the US, Canada, etc... which were created by colonization and settlement, therefore making sure that the individual states or provinces share a similar culture, or even how Germany and Italy were unified, as that was unification of smaller states that already shared a culture.

It is like how Mexico is technically part of North America, but culturally they have very little in common with the US or Canada and are culturally more in line with Central and South America. It is one reason that I never understood the fears of a North American Union being formed, after NAFTA. Yes, culturally I could see the US and Canada doing it, maybe even throwing in some of the Caribbean islands, but ultimately the cultural factor would doom any union that included Mexico as a part of it.

Is Hawaii geographically part of Asia, North America or neither?

Thats the whole point of Brexit isn't it. The horror at being considered European.

R16 neither, it is part of Oceania, which means it is geographically connected to Australia, not Asia or either of the Americas.

R13. Though physiographically a part of the continent of North America, Greenland has been politically and culturally associated with Europe (specifically Norway and Denmark, the colonial powers, as well as the nearby island of Iceland) for more than a millennium.

R13, are you also R10.

[quote] R13: Exactly no one thinks of Greenland as being part of North America.

I do. Why wouldn’t you? And what would you think?

[quote]. R18: (Hawaii) is part of Oceania, which means it is geographically connected to Australia, not Asia or either of the Americas.

I don’t think it is part of Oceania, and whether or not, it certainly isn’t “geographically connected to Australia”. It has no geographic connection to Australia at all.

I think you’re completely making things up.

it must be off topic Thursday

No-one in the UK says "going to Europe" when talking about holidays, R12.

On hols!

[Quote] The only reason that England sometimes thinks it's not part of Europe is due to snobbishness--thinking that it's some special entity.

[Quote] Though physiographically a part of the continent of North America, Greenland has been politically and culturally associated with Europe

[Quote] The horror at being considered European.

It's how Britain chooses to identify itself. So will it in the future? My question is valid r5.

No, r24. They used to say "going to the Continent" or just name the specific country they were visiting. Taking a year-long "Continental tour" was a huge thing among upper class Englishmen between the 1800's and the 1960's.

My point is the language has changed under the influence of the European Union, but prior to that it was always "The Continent" and things and people on the European Continent were "Continental". It is only since the European Union's rising power that this way of referring to Europe changed in Britain.

People get so pissy about how to label everything. None of it matters.

Britain was physically connected to the land mass of Europe before the oceans rose. (The average depth of the English channel is only 200 feet, and in near Dover is only 145 feet). It is part of the Eurasian Continental Plate. Geographical it is part of Europe without question. The distance from Dover to Calais (20 miles) is half the distance of Washington DC to Baltimore or about the distance from downtown LA to Santa Monica.. If a person could walk on water, he could cover that distance walking in 4-5 hours. There are single cities in America that easily extend that distance.

Ethnically, (by DNA), the British are very closely related to the Irish, the Scots, and the people of Northern France, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands and are not "pure" anything. They carry the same DNA markers of neolithic people who came to Europe out of the middle east and from the steppe along the Black Sea 8000 years ago. Linguistically, the English language is closely related to Dutch and German, with some strong influence from France. Historically, Britain was Christianized at the same time as the rest of Europe. It underwent European historical events - the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, the middle ages, the great plague, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Protestant Reformation, the Industrial Revolution, colonization of non-European countries, two World Wars at the same time as most other regions of Europe. Politically, it arrived at a form of representative democracy a little earlier than other European nations. Its royal family is related to the royal families of all other Protestant European nations that still have royal families.

There is NOTHING special about Britain as a country or as a people that strongly differentiates it from the rest of Europe. Psychologically, some British people might consider themselves as not being European, but they are deluding themselves.

Of course Britain is Europe.

Remember only England and Wales voted for Brexit. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU and Scotland, at least, will end up breaking away from the UK and will join the EU again as an independent nation.

Britain was a huge empire. It was weighty enough to deserve a unique category when discussing countries or cultures. “Continental” in its influence.

Oh hi, Nigel Farage at r32!

Pip pip, cheerio -- how's that Brexit thing working out for you these days? I hear an invitation to tea with the Queen is in the mail!

OP should go back to high school and take geography class again. It seems like it didn't work the first time around. Atrocious education, I suppose.

[quote]. [R18]: (Hawaii) is part of Oceania, which means it is geographically connected to Australia, not Asia or either of the Americas. I don’t think it is part of Oceania, and whether or not, it certainly isn’t “geographically connected to Australia”. It has no geographic connection to Australia at all. I think you’re completely making things up.

R22 You are the one that is wrong. Oceania is made up of Australasia, Melanesia, Micronesia and Polynesia. Hawaii is part of Polynesia. Australia is part of Australasia. Therefore Hawaii is geographically connected to Australia as they are both part of Oceania.

R35, Ok, according to some definitions, I concede. The U.N. does not include Hawaii within their definition of “Polynesia”, however.

The Hawaiian natives are ethnically Polynesian, as are the natives of New Zealand, though they were settled completely separately. Australian natives are not ethnically Polynesian at all. The Hawaiian archipelago is not geologically related to the Australian continent nor to the islands of New Zealand.

The only reason to lump Hawaii in with any of these others as part of “Oceania” is if you just want to draw a circle around a quarter of the globe and claim that anything within this area should be grouped together for some reason. The reason seems mostly to be laziness and ignorance. (Not you, R35, but the Westerners who first conjured these delineations.)

It just feels to be like referring to the Czech people as living within the “Greater Reich”, and not recognizing the very real distinctions between these regions and people.

Britons are going through a tough period right now. We all are.

Britannia, at the height of Empire, 1918.

This is pretty remarkable. 60% of the world population under the British boot. Plus, it’s alliance with the US was reasonable close.

After Brexit, I think the Brits will be considered Polynesians. Does that make sense?

A new Anglo-Americana is England's future. Will that be attractive enough for Scotland to forsake independence and EU?

They must give up football and cricket, and take up baseball and hockey. Agreed, Britain?

Or do you prefer frogs legs and blood pudding?

All red, all red! That is my dream!

Here’s a cool clip from the movie [italic] Waterloo. [/Italic] It’s pretty impressive. I think I’ll watch it tonight.

From Elizabeth I, to Wellington, Victoria & Albert, Churchill, Elizabeth II, James Bond, Harry Potter, to Kingsman, Britannia rules the waves, and God is an Englishman!

R10 & R13 Greenland might be leaving Europe, and not only joining North America, but the USA.

Obviously it's part of Europe, but there is a mindset of distinction you find in England that they are culturally separate from continental Europe.

[Quote] mindset of distinction you find in England that they are culturally separate from continental Europe.

Now's the chance to be truly separate.

European or not I think we can all agree they are among the purest whites in the world.

Aren’t Germans the whitest Whites? There are a lot of Irish in the UK, and they’re not even White at all.

If Scotland leaves will the UK still be called Uk?

They're Europeans, just not continental Europeans.

European will mean the continental Europeans only or perhaps just citizens of the EU. North Americans should include Mexicans, but the term is mainly used to refer to Canadians + Americans. The British know they are different from the Europeans, just as Canadians and Americans know we are different from the rest of the inhabitants on our continent.

North America includes the USA, Canada, all of Central America, and all of the Caribbean Islands.

I don't know about whether they will be considered Europeans, but they will be considered idiots for supporting Brexit.

Is the Isle of Lesbia still a part of Greece?

The good thing about this Brexit debacle is hopefully once it's implemented and things go to crap the Tory party will be dead before long. it would be so nice to see the Tories and the Republican parties dead and buried.

And I left out Greenland, which is also part of North America.

r57, that's okay, no one cared.

The UK considered itself above the other European countries. The only country near their status is Germany. Most of the other European countries are considered on a lower tier. The UK still wants its sovereign rule over its county and not to be run by Brussels.

My niece's brother-in-law is from Knowsley, and he said people from the UK aren't Europeans.

England, post Brexit and out of absolute desperation, will become the 51st US state, and Northern Ireland will be the 52nd, to end The Troubles once and for all. Fuck Scotland and Wales. And fuck Europe.

R61 Wales voted for Brexit so I'm guessing they would follow England in your scenario. NI becoming a state wouldn't end the troubles unless the Republic of Ireland also left the EU to join the US. People make fun of the idea, but if the English speaking countries would join together it would be huge. If just the US, UK, and Canada would join together our economy would be ridiculous, as we would be combining three of the largest economies in the world. We would dwarf, China and the EU. Throw in Australia, New Zealand, the rest of the Commonwealth, and maybe Ireland, and we would unquestionably be the dominate power on Earth for many, many years

They seem to be European when it's convenient. Otherwise, they seem to spend an awful lot of time sneering at "continentals" to me.

Weird. I just chatted with my British colleague in London and asked how his wife was doing. He said: "She's in Europe with the kids until Tuesday". Hahaha!

^^ Well, that settles that. No further debate needed. Bloody fools, all of us.

If a Brexit referendum were held again, I'm betting N.I. would vote leave this time because their big thing is not being excluded from the U.K. That leaves Scotland as the only pro European 'country' of the U.K.

Point is, r65, many British people don't see themselves as Europeans or part of Europe. Same goes with Russians who think they're too big for Europe.

You can't pull the Russians into the debate for comparison. Their society evolved, over several centuries, completely separate from the European Sub-Continent. England, on the other hand, is inextricably connected to western Europe's culture and and history.

No cultures, especially adjacent ones, are completely separate. It's thinking that separates or unites us.

Historians believe that the lack of invasions of England since William the Conqueror (obviously not counting William III, who was invited and was a descendant of British royalty) has caused them to form an identity that is distinct from Europe. Europeans have a history, which the English do not, of changing borders and being ruled and dominated by foreign powers,

The UK is still a world power. Don’t make the mistake that Argentina made in the 1980s.

France fancies itself a peer of England, does it not? They have a top-tier medical system. A former colonial empire. A formidable military. A thousand-year history as a country.

Spain is more insular, as far as I can tell, and has lagged since WWII. The same for Italy. The rest of Europe are, at best, regional or financial powers, but not world powers.

Brexit is the Russian wet dream. History will judge it so.

Britains power is shrinking though. It's presence in hard and soft diplomacy has been waning the last couple of decades. It will even more with jingoistic nationalism on the rise.

It can only hang onto the also declining US. Much depends on China, waiting to take its turn. Europe is the only place of political ideas built on enlightenment values. The rest are about brute force and insularity.

China is in a race to keep economic growth fast enough to keep political unrest tamped down. A prolonged slowdown there could be politically disastrous. Then, we’ll see how brutal their leadership can really be. It’ll be in public and unignorable. The while country could fall apart.

Doesn’t China have regional separatist movements? Shouldn’t it?

I’m Irish and we call going to continental Europe on holiday “going out foreign”. It’s not anti EU sentiment or thinking we’re above anyone it’s just that I suppose when Irish people go to Spain/Greece/Portugal on holiday it fells very foreign. For the language to the food to the weather to the way people communicate is a culture shock. Going to US/Canada is not called “going out foreign” funny enough. That would be “going to America” or “going to Canada” Have never given it much thought but I suppose “going to America” feels familiar especially the east coast.

I worked in London for a few years and my coworkers referred to Europe meaning on the continent. “It’s £800 for a fortnight in Europe”/“He went to Florida last year but he’s cutting back now so just a weekend in Europe this year ”/“EasyJet do cheap flights to Europe” These were liberal luvvy types so not anti EU sentiment either.

What an odd fixation you seem to have OP. Do you have any skin in this game, or are you yet another Brexit shit-stirring foreign interloper? Once the Eurostar Chunnel was completed, many Britons realised they were truly part of Europe due to the physical connection. Some joked, some seriously did feel the service made us feel as one culture. That is my best answer. Before the EU, though we had the common market, or EEC, we British did still consider ourselves very much a separate people. That sentiment may very well return post- Brexit. Personally I'm OK with it. It seems somewhat inevitable.

Furthermore, many posters as R6 who claim we're snobbish somehow in our feeling unique is utter tosh and hypocrisy. Do you Americans feel Canadian? Culturally I think it is the same issue. Same continent, very different cultures, and separate history. Identities come from our histories and our traditions, and we each have our own. No snobbery in the cultural aspect or definition. We are also by far more different from our neighbours than Americans are to Canadians. I'm having trouble with why you find this difficult to grasp.

R6= American-Centric worldview. From your POV, I can see your mistaken false premise, but you cannot. Many Greeks do not consider themselves European either. Identities are felt, not simply circumscribed on maps.

I feel like many Americans say “I’m going to Europe” or “I want to go to Europe someday” which tells me nothing. I’m not sure if they see it all as once big homogenous culture? I know on forums I often see American posters make statements that Europeans are less prudish/Europeans have healthier diets and it doesn’t make sense without specifying the country because the cultures are so different. You have so much going on. Former empires, former colonies, catholic countries, Protestant countries, former soviet bloc countries and on and on. If one American goes to Italy and says they have “been to Europe” and the other goes to Sweden and says they have “been to Europe” they will have had very different experiences and come away with different impressions of what Europe is. Just like sending someone to Alabama and someone to New York City.

R52 is spot on... and smart.

They can claim they're not part of Europe all they want, and it still won't make it true.

From WorldAtlas.com

[quote] England is a country covering an area of approximately 50,301 square miles. It shares its land borders with Scotland and Wales to the north-northwest and west respectively. Together with Northern Ireland, the four countries form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The UK is situated off the northwestern coast of the European mainland. Of the four countries, only Northern Ireland shares a land border with another country, Ireland. England, just as the rest of the UK, is located in the continent of Europe. However, the Northern Sea and the English Channel separates it from continental Europe. England is located on the British Isle in the north of the Atlantic Ocean.

R52 being different doesn't make make you not part of a group. Wales, Scotland, and N. Ireland are all somewhat different than England, but they're all part of the United Kingdom.

The irony here is that are an awful lot of Americans here discussing this from an American perspective. You certainly perceive us all the same [italic] as Europeans [/italic] . Therefore it must be true! Submit to our random labels and classification. If you asked most Germans and Dutch pre-Euro and EU if THEY considered us European, you would be very much surprised by their answers. Why this is of such importance to Americans has still not been resolved.

you sound pressed, r83

R81 (conveniently) failed to comprehend "However, The Northern Sea and English Channel seperates it from continental Europe." SEPERATE=APART=DIFFERENT. We are still an Island nation, and in many ways unto ourself. Again, why this is of any concern to the stubborn and pushy Americans is beyond me.

R84 Yes, by you! I especially don't care for the American commenters revelling in a future demise of Britain. I seem to have a love-hate relationship with many of you Americans. You seem to be obsessed with us recently in these threads. The attitude is always the same: "Brits, you're snobbish, yet we know better than you, and we're always right." Funny that.

American Exceptionalism: a prime illustration of humanity's extreme hubris.

I didn't fail to comprehend a damn thing R85. I'm not blind. I can obviously see that the UK is separated from the continent of Europe by water. But that does not mean it is not part of Europe. Hawaii and Alaska are separated from the 48 contiguous states of the USA by water and land, but they're still part of the USA.

You seem to be offended when it's pointed out that the UK is part of Europe. That says more about you than our interest across the pond says about us.

Why must you feel the need to reframe our identity R88? You fancy yourselves the arbiters of everything it would seem. It's quite alright to have opinions on things, but it's yet another to go shoving them down people's throats. Worry about your own mess of a country, and see how you are perceived around the world. It's not always a pretty picture.

DL is all about shoving them down people's throats, R89

R88 You make very distant, if weak analogies. The states you list were territories purchased by your country. We were not purchased by Europe? See the distinction? Culturally, those people residing there are your fellow citizens.

I'm off to enjoy my brekkie, and a spliffy beforehand with my coffee. I shall deeply contemplate all the profound and thoughtful posts of my future American overlords here!

R83/R86, I've never heard anyone from the UK refer to himself as "European". But then I've never heard anyone from continental Europe self-identify as "European" either.

But why get fussed over a DL thread?

[quote] I'm off to enjoy my brekkie, and a spliffy beforehand with my coffee.

This is why the rest of the world sees you as twits. You and your silly little Britishisms. I hope you're mowed down by a lorry while standing in the central reservation of a dual carriageway.

Two things: 1) Brits ARE Europeans. 2) But they don't consider themselves Europeans.

"But then I've never heard anyone from continental Europe self-identify as "European" either. "

This is true, people will just tell you which country they're from because that's much more important information. But when asked "are you European", they'll respond with "of course". Brits won't.

It's trying living amongst the Americans at times. This would be one of them. Some of you are tedious.

R94 You write brilliantly. Why don't you take the time and tutor some of your fellow Americans? Put your powers to good.

And some of you are tenuous.

Scotland can’t survive without Britain and the EU wants nothing to do with them.

R79 Sounds rather smart too.

The Brits are considered snowflakes, inbred island-folk and wannabe Scandinavians. Also, despite the fact that they look down on mainland Europe, they love to appropriate the cultural heritage of Ancient Rome and Greece.

Leaving aside the far right who really had more of a fear of “Pakis” and “Muzzies” than continental Europeans, Brits don’t look down on Europeans. In fact, my opinion as an Irishman living in London is that the Irish and the Brits are a bit intimidated by the continentals. They seem chicer, they are tanned, their languages sound better, they seem more sophisticated, their food is more complex, they dress better....I’m not saying those things are necessarily true but it is what intimidates the average working class Brit or Irish person. Hence the many, many package holiday resorts that bring Irish/British pubs and food to them so they have all the comfort of home in the sun and never have to be interact with the local culture. I’ll also say Ireland and Britain are very bad at teaching languages in schools which adds to the intimidation factor. We learned Irish and then in secondary school had the option of French or German. Let me tell you as a working class Irish boy if you did well at French or spoke it aloud properly, rolling your rs - social suicide. Better hand it your man card because it was all over. So you had to pretend at least to be terrible even if on examination day you went in an aced the oral exam. 5 years later little is remembered and I remember when my brother was taking his then girlfriend to Paris for the first time he would go bright red envisioning having to say “Bonjour” or navigate ordering from a French menu. When he and people like him say they are going out foreign they mean to the continent and they feel ill prepared for what they imagine is a more sophisticated culture.

At the other end of the social scale I’ve had bosses going to France and Switzerland on skiing trips who were so smug about knowing their French to communicate with the hep at the chalet. So smug that they can afford to trot off “out foreign” while the rest of us are stuck in front of the fire eating the last of the Quality street. But the undercurrent was the same “we can afford to go to this culturally superior place and eat better food and drink better wine unlike you plebs fa fa fa” The Brits who go skiing are equally insufferable and boy don’t they love to brag about it. They are certainly not giving the impression they are slumming it by going to that inferior dump in the Swiss Alps- quite the opposite. One of my bosses opening bragged that he was flying in BA Club and staying at an authentic Swiss chalet so he wouldn’t have to hear one Northern accent or see one chav all week!

Would it be fair to say there are the following Euro groups:

Anglo-Celtic or British/Irish

Nordic

Germanic, including parts of Holland, Belgium, and Switzerland.

Romance

Slavic

Greek, almost an afterthought

Historically, wouldn’t British European vacations be restricted to the Romance countries? Or, even, just France, Italy, and possibly Switzerland?

Spain was the first British package holiday destination I believe.

Where do Albania, Hungary, and the Baltic states fit in these groups, r103?

R103 That's still too generalized. For example, I'd say Balkans and Central European Slavs are two separate groups. And then there's the Baltics.

R12: And behave like drunk animals.

The behaviour of british in Spain is something incredibly shameful and sometimes deadly, jumping from balcony maybe seems a good idea when you are drugged but it's not

R105, how many divisions has the Albanians?

Hungary should be lumped in with Greece and Turkey under “other”. (I loved Hungary, but, com’on. I’m already making allowances for recognizing the Nordic countries and the Slavs).

As for the Baltics. Hmm, aren’t they related to the Finns? Should there be a group for the Baltics that includes Finland and Hungary? But would this group be at all consequential? To people outside of it, I mean. No disrespect is meant to people in inconsequential countries.

Lithuanians and Latvians aren't related to the Finns but Estonians are, r108.

"I’m already making allowances for recognizing the Nordic countries and the Slavs"

Fucking hell.

R104, thank you, but when Jane Austen was writing about the British going to the Continent, through the period of Downton Abbey where fine ladies would go to “visit an aunt” and have an illegitimate child, where did they go? I was thinking about long before the Great War.

History, people!

Here’s a map that eliminates some of these pesky countries.

Finland and the Baltics are now “Russia”.

Poland is now “Germany”.

Austro-Hungary how has hegemony over that mess in the Balkans.

Greece is now “Turkey” and is part of Asia and no longer Europe.

There will always be an England, though. Not so, Ireland.

And there’s still a Scandinavia, to make R110 happy.

This simplifies things. How about this? Is this better?

Poor Britannia, it no longer rules the waves. And the pound is down to $1.21. It will go down more after the Brexit. Start planning your trips to the U.K.

More seriously, I’m thinking of a general way to look at the Continent. Something like this map from Ancestry.com that simplifies regions in an attempt to be able to make general statements.

It happens to be my purported genetic ancestral lands, if it is to be believed.

Can it be done? If it’s too detailed, it can become too hard to really get your mind around.

[quote]Dearest O. P.... Allow me to explain how continents work....

Yes, please do, K thx bye!!!

[quote]they love to appropriate the cultural heritage of Ancient Rome and Greece.

It isn't appropriation because Briton was part of Ancient Rome. Rome was in turn influenced by Greece. Just like it isn't appropriation for the USA to use Roman architecture, ideas, etc... because we inherited ancient Roman and Greek culture through Briton.

[quote] they love to appropriate the cultural heritage of Ancient Rome and Greece.

Yeah, that’s a stretch. At this point, it’s at least all of Western Civilization’s Heritage, if not World Heritage.

R108. Turkey is not Europe or European.

R68 Russian Tsars have been marrying Germans for centuries. Catherine the Great was German. During her reign, the French language was the lingua franca of the aristocracy and diplomats. She was pen pals with Voltaire for many years. The last Tsarina, Alix of Hesse, was German. Her husband's mother was Princess Dagmar of Denmark. Nicholas's grandfather, Alexander II, married a princess of Hesse.

Turkey is as European as Russia is. Or as Greece is. No?

Europe is a concept, anyway. There’s no geologic distinction between Europe and Asia.

People can't decide on the basis of their nationality that they are not a part of a continent, which is a geographical entity. The Chinese and Japanese are both incredibly xenophobic peoples, but they wouldn't deny that their countries are part of the continent of Asia. Thus the Chinese are both Chinese and Asian and the Japanese are both Japanese and Asian. The British are both British and Europeans. The CONTINENT that one is a part of only becomes a matter of identification if a person is visiting another continent, because otherwise a person identifies much more with his/her country of origin. . It is a matter of education defects all over the world that people know the 7 continents much better than the 200 or so individual countries. It's a matter of arrogance that the British (and the Americans as the people of the US describe themselves) and certain other large countries consider their countries so well known that they don't need an additional qualifier. If a person from Bolivia was visiting Germany and a German person were to ask "are you Spanish", he would probably answer, '"no, I'm from Bolivia - it's in South America". A different person might ask, "are you from Haiti?""No, I'm from Sierra Leone - it's in Africa". "Are you from China?, "No, I'm from Laos - it's in Asia".

After Brexit Brits will be considered Americans because Trump will own their asses.

Is anyone confusing Britain with British New Guinea? Or perhaps the UK with some other K?

And everyone knows who America is, except people who resent it for having more political or military power than their shit hole country elsewhere in America.

Once again this American hubris is demonstrated by Trump attempting to purchase Greenland from the Danes. Only operating with an idea of Geographical relevance isn't very bright. What other country would try to negociate something so preposterous in the modern era?

Americans still seem preoccupied with owning other people. So many bad outcomes, i.e. Slavery, the previovvious purchases of the Mexican territories. How is that cultural strife near her borders working out now present day? Hawaii wasn't a peaceful nor proper acquisition either.

Americans still seem preoccupied with owning other people. So many bad outcomes, i.e. Slavery, the previovvious purchases of the Mexican territories. How is that cultural strife near her borders working out now present day? Hawaii wasn't a peaceful nor proper acquisition either.

Mexico couldn't wait to get rid of their territories and gladly sold them to the US. They had no idea what to do with it all.

America isn’t negotiating about Greenland. Trump is. Just stop it.

R128 I will not "stop it". There are several silly Americans on this thread who believe they are entitled to it, vis a vis the N.American continent. Your collective faulty logic only works applied to certain nation states? By the language here, it would prove you wrong. Most of you would be thrilled at the acquisition, even if the Greenlanders wanted nothing to do with you.

What I don't understand is all the liberals who have been so "concerned" about Russia for the last few years, are now the ones saying this is a crazy idea. The main reason for the US to buy Greenland is because of its strategic importance for the US in relation to Russia. If you are truly concerned about Russia, you should be jumping on this idea and supporting it.

I don't think we need it, as long as Greenland and Denmark allow us to keep our Air Force Base there, but that is the reason America has sought to buy the territory since the end of WWII. Truman tried it at an early UN meeting, and we later tried it again in the 1970s.

R128 I'm confident you think it's just "Fake News".

R129, Whatever is wrong with you is certainly not America’s fault.

What r103 refers to as "Romance" are in fact Latins (Spain, France, Italy, Portugal and possibly Romania). I've heard people in all these countries refer to themselves as a Latin culture, and just the other day, a Frenchman was telling me that "in Latin countries, we don't care if a man has a mistress". But the meaning is starting to change because of U.S. racial interpretations.

Conversely, no one outside the U.S. and Canada refers to the United States as 'America'. They consider themselves all 'Americans' from Argentines, to Peruvians to Guatemalans.

[quote]Most of you would be thrilled at the acquisition, even if the Greenlanders wanted nothing to do with you.

Annexation by the United States would be beneficial for the inhabitants of both countries. Most of the acquisitions by the U.S. have not taken into account local sentiment so that's not really a factor.

[quote]Scotland can’t survive without Britain and the EU wants nothing to do with them.

Supporting Scotland would be tantamount to encouraging the Catalans in Spain who no one in Europe likes. That brand of nationalism, where a people claim to be exceptional and special resulted in two world wars and is antithetic to the E.U. ideal.

[quote]They consider themselves all 'Americans' from Argentines, to Peruvians to Guatemalans.

A zombie myth that will never die as longer as there continue to be idiots promulgating it.

At least Greenland have been warned and we now know they'll be the first to fall at the next world war as the current tenuous global peace inevitably collapses.

[quote] no one outside the U.S. and Canada refers to the United States as 'America'.

Besides Europeans, Asians, Mexicans, Australians and New Zealanders. Probably everybody but this one persistent carbuncle.

^ No one in the Americas.

When I was in hospital I used to waste time watching YouTube videos of British people’s Orlando vacations. I especially loved their travel day vlogs. I was fascinated by the accents, usually Northern ones, which Americans rarely get to hear. I loved how they pronounced America and it was always “going to America” not going to the US/the states/stateside.

R140...And?

It was in response to the person who claimed that no one outside the US refers to the US as America.

R142 I suppose I was awaiting some sort of conclusion. Such as, north country people with a predilection for Orlando holidays speak better, or some other sort of limited statement based on limited observation. I admit I have used the term, but was always corrected. It was stressed it wasn't specific enough to be mutually intelligible, and wasn't the proper way to abbreviate the USA. I say States now that I've lived here for twenty years, more formally I'll write out U.S.

I never hear “the states”, except, I think, on “Gilligan’s Island”.

R143, you’re being obtuse. It was quite clear what R142 meant.

East Canada

[quote]Conversely, no one outside the U.S. and Canada refers to the United States as 'America'.

The US is known as America throughout the world.

Not to this carbuncle, R147!

[quote]Americans still seem preoccupied with owning other people.

I certainly hope this poster isn’t British because if so, how irony proof would THAT be?

[quote]So many bad outcomes, i.e. Slavery

A BRITISH institution implanted in the colonies, initially for BRITISH profit ....

Boris won't be satisfied until he's seen Cornwall secede from the Union and the Wester Isle get retaken by Ireland.

The British actually committed warships to the enforcement on their own prohibition of international slave trading ships. Britain had never allowed slavery there.

The US actually abolished its international slave trade in 1808, the earliest date allowed in the Constitution. It fought a devastating civil war to abolish domestic slavery in 1860.

France only abolished slavery in its colonies in 1848, only 12 years before the US.

Portugal, Cuba, Brazil, and Spain all follow the US in completely banning slavery.

Guam banned slavery in 1900.

Many Arab countries banned slavery between 1950 and 1970, legally, if not in practice.

The US and Britain don’t look so bad, in comparison to the prevailing actions of other countries, particularly Spain, Portugal and its colonies.

[Quote] After Brexit Brits will be considered Americans because Trump will own their asses.

Trump meant England not Greenland when he talked about buying it. His geography is not good as we know.

[Quote] The US and Britain don’t look so bad, in comparison to the prevailing actions of other countries

No longer true. History's a bitch.

R153, stop with the whataboutism. I was referring to slavery. Portugal, Cuba, Brazil, Turkey, Bulgaria, China, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Hong Kong, and Spain all follow the US in completely banning slavery.

R151 Also, no one ever mentions the African tribes and kingdoms that willingly sold other Africans to the Europeans or the fact that less than 10% of African slaves brought to the Americas came to the US. For some reason America and Briton seem to get all the grief for slavery, even though slavery was not some new invention of Anglo-American culture, and we weren't even the biggest players in the practice.

The Barbary slave trade was going on at the same time. Europeans were captured through piracy or raids on coastal towns (as far north as England) and enslaved in North Africa. The US Marines played a major role in ending the Barbary slave trade.

This is a chapter of history you don't hear much about.

I just read that Britain paid Portugal and Spain over £1,000,000 to stop their slave trade. They built a huge fleet of ships to interdict slave ships on the high seas. They also pursued a series of bilateral treaties with other American Hemispheric countries and with other European countries to support suppression of the slave trade. They strike me as on of the heros of the anti slavery movement.

Slavery was part of the human experience for millennia, it was practiced on every continent. It is only relatively recently, on the grand scale of things, that slavery has been seen as immoral and criminal, and the practice has been banned.

To a non-European this squabble sounds so petty. In addition Britain is much too close to continental Europe to imperil its Europeanness. The Europeanness of Iceland looks much more questionable to me.

Half of Iceland is in North America. It sits on the geologic divide between Europe and NA.

Europe and NA are moving away from each other at the rate of an inch a year. This is creating a rip that runs down the island and is widening a bit each year. Sometimes these tears open up a to the manga below, so it’s like a linear volcano that results.

This phenomenon runs down the center of the Atlantic Ocean, but since its underwater, we don’t see it.

This whole argument really feels hurtful to me. I like the British, and the Irish. But I'm American. I'm their best friend, on the other side of the ocean. I had my DNA traced, and I don't even have a tiny drop of British or Irish blood, but I still like what they contribute. Both Britain and Ireland are European islands. If either of them (or both of them) choose different political futures, that will be very sad. The people of Britain and Ireland are eternally linked. To pretend otherwise is just stupid.

Cyrus the Great freed the slaves in his empire, 538 BC. These included the Jews in the Babylonian exile. It was a tremendously advanced act for that era.

I assume what OP is asking is whether Brits will still have European citizenship, and the ability to work & travel throughout the EU on one passport?

Rule Britannia!

R145 No obtuseness meant. I was genuinely thrown off by the fact they were from the north on holiday in Orlando. So many mince everyone's words here: edit, fix, revise, (so many DIFFERENT names for it) I was beginning to think this was about to digress into a U and Non-U argument again. . Which BTW I find peculiar that only DL ers in AMERICA preoccupy themselves with the topic. Clearly some stubborn and very opinionated posters when it comes to how we express ourselves here. I also thought he/she may have felt I was deprecating when I've used the term States, or the States. Some Americans (it has been said) find it disrespectful as in "the Colonies". Most Americans I've known who live abroad refer to the US as the states in informal speech. I suspect I've picked it up from them back home. I genuinely don't see what the issue is. Is it just additional cuntiness? Perhaps so.

[quote]The US is known as America throughout the world.

For the last time, NOT IN LATIN AMERICA!

Brexit will trigger another worldwide recession.

R167, I wouldn’t argue with you that “America” may not be used for the US in South America. I think it is in Mexico, and much of the Caribbean, but I’ll believe you if you say South America.

Earlier, I think you wrote that it was only in the US and Canada that American meant US, and I hope R167 means that you've now acknowledged that you were wrong.

R169 Can you explain why this is important? Not R167, yet genuinely confused. Is one really "right" and the other wrong? I for example say I'm from Britain, never the UK, yet I'm not concerned with others saying so, even when they're not from Northern Ireland, Wales, or Scotland. It makes no difference to me.

R164 No.

R170, I’m sorry, but if you don’t know why facts are important, I can’t help you.

If you don’t know why a person who argues opposing positions in a single discussion, shouldn’t be called on it, I can’t help you.

Maybe if you reread the thread from the top, you might understand.

R172 have read the entire thread, and have contributed to many of the different arguments herein. As a Brit living amongst you, I don't understand your objection to my saying States, the States, US, or writing out " The United States". I've consulted what linguists have to say about the matter online, and none state what I write or say is WRONG. There is no justification for the many objections. I find it petty, if not cunty. The only reference I am able to find is that it would not be formal enough in Diplomatic, or Royal circles. Try to find a reference stating I am wrong, and perhaps I shall re-train myself to say AMERICA each and every time.

R172 If I may also impart, regarding States vs The U.S., from many British linguists' perspective, it's been suggested that phonetically, Thee Yew essss is much harder to pronounce and doesn't roll off the British tongue as quickly as States. Just sharing from a different perspective.

R173, you are [italic] inventing [/italic] things to be confused and upset about. You’re being obtuse, and not for the first time in this thread, too.

[quote] I don't understand your objection to my saying States

I don’t object, nor have I said I did. It’s a free country.

[quote] There is no justification for the many objections. I find it petty, if not cunty

I couldn’t find any objections is a search, above. Did I miss the “many”?

R175 I was referring to the many objections to my saying (writing) it here on DL, and more specifically on this thread. I apologise if it seems I'm making it a personal war with you, per se... Perhaps I should have been more clear. You seemed to have a black and white position on the term America, and signed one post with "An American Posting from America", so I had assumed you could be the one to settle the matter, or clarify. I'm glad you see nothing wrong with my choosing those terms then, and many thanks for your response.

R176, As I wrote, I see no objections in this thread to you using the term “The States”, and not the “many objections” you complain about.

Cheers R177, and sorry to have lumped you in with the rest, or made you the spokesman for those who had objected. I had mistakenly thought you were arguing for "always America"; I shouldn't have written "your" objection.

Cheers, R178.

I don’t consider the British “European”. Only those on the continent are, IMO. Scandinavians are separate, too. Even the Danish.

In my view, anyway.

I like you as well then R180!

The British are Europeans who don't consider themselves European.

[Quote] the extent to which the Johnson government is prepared to humiliate itself for a trade deal with the USA has not gone unnoticed in Berlin."

Is an Anglo-Russia v EU the new axis of rivalrous blocs?

[quote]Is an Anglo-Russia v EU the new axis of rivalrous blocs?

An American, British and Russian alliance against German hegemony in Europe would not be new.

In previous iterations, the French and Germans were at odds. Now they are together. Then of course, there are Danes, Dutch, Belgians, Swedes, Czechs and others who are right on board with the Germans. It's a dick move to try to suddenly claim the EU as a German thing......

In the distant, future annals of evolution, will the Brits become known as this millennium's neanderthals? Brexit defies intelligence.