The Queeniest Queen Who Ever Queened

Dish on the murder. I knew queens like that back in the day.

I love Kenneth Williams. My favorite line from one of his Carry On movies Carry On Cleo as Julius Caesar: Infamy ! Infamy ! Everyone has it in for me !

Part II

I cannot bear this ancient closeted relic of another time. He was self-hating in his private life. He appeared in this ghastly Carry On films pretending to be a heterosexual. He was a VERY bad influence on Maggie Smith.

Horrendous!!!!!

He father died by taking carbon tetrachloride, Kenneth always claimed his father committed suicide. But Scotland Yard kept a file on him for years as they felt he was responsible for his father's poisoning. Kenneth hated his father who was virulently homophobic. In fact Kenneth was denied a visa to enter the US at one point because of the file kept on him by Scotland Yard.

I always thought that Kenny's mum accidently on purpose killed her husband

Scotland Yard may have been acting homophobically.

His life was a train wreck.

I'm American and I rather enjoy the Carry On Films. I have a large collection of them.

Ioe Orton tries his best to out Kenny as gay.

R10 I'm sorry but perhaps you could explain why a sensible American would enjoy ancient British, homophobic burlesque written for lager-louts without a smidgen of wit.

The only funny Youtube clip with this train wreck of a man is funny because Williams plays the butt of the joke.

Poor Joe Orton. Brutally murdered by his lover and flatmate Kenneth Halliwell.

R10 I knew one youngish straight (or straightish) American who loved Carry On. Are you he? He was odd looking but sexy.

R12, I like what I like. I've never proclaimed to have high taste in my entertainment choices.

My dear no R14. I'm neither young or straight,

Joe and Kenneth...two opposites yet friends when homosexuality was a criminal offence.

Kenneth stayed in the closet.well celibate as gay sex disgusted him.

Joe Orton, shagged anything that moved so his jealous boyfriend murdered him/

I have spoken to some ancient homosexuals (who are probably dead now) who said that the ghastly Williams was mildly witty back in in pre-historic times in a radio show called Julian and Sandy. See if you can try and find it.

They agree that the Carry On series from the 50s and 60s was trash.

Here is that amusing clip I mentioned earlier. You'll notice that the humour in this scene derives, not from Williams, but from the other actors and the train whistle.

FWIW, anyone who starts a thread called "The Queeniest Queen Who Ever Queened" is not far behind.

Halliwell's suicide note (he killed himself with sleeping pills in the same room after he'd bludgeoned Orton with a hammer) said that Orton's diary would explain why he killed him, especially the later parts. The later parts of the diary described Orton's rampant promiscuity and penchant for cottaging. Halliwell actually died before Orton. Authorities said the death scene was horrid. Blood everywhere. Apparently Halliwell beat Orton's brains out with the hammer, but the poor guy lived for a while afterward. They weren't found until the following morning.

[quote] Kenneth stayed in the closet.well celibate as gay sex disgusted him.

His disgust didn't keep him from having sex with Orton. Obviously a self hating homo.

Have you seen "Fabulosa!" (sp?), the BBC biopic with DL fave Michael Sheen as Williams?

*"Fantabulosa!"

The guy they cast as Orton was worlds better looking.

I'm sorry, I have not.

r21. no argument,but I didn't think they shagged each other..more that Orton was trying to get Williams to pop his cherry as it were. Agree that Williams hated that he was attracted to men.

A short version of Orton and Williams relationship;

Something about the men named.....

Orton was very cute when he was young.

Anyway.back to the Queeneist. It was not Kenny IMO. I give you Quentin Crisp.

R18, he reminds me of Dot Cotten in EastEnders.

But Quentin wasn't affected. He was what he was. Williams was a 100% affection of something he never was nor ever could be. Quentin was simply effeminate. Williams was a KAWEEEEEEN!

Quentin was basically alone and unhappy. His stage appearances were scripted for him from his old writings.

He said he moved to New York because most people in NY are lonely, he said.

I have never seen a pic of Orton where he didn't look like mutton dressed as lamb.

Quentin was wonderful.He did a LOT for gay rights but he did have affectations, especially when he was younger. That was part of the gay community though when it was illegal..

Trunks

Orton may have looked like mutton dressed as lamb but the original subject of this thread was tripe.

Who’s the Queeniest Queen That’s Still Alive? They don’t make ‘em like they used to!

krrrrttttt

How could anyone hate the Carry On films, I'm another American who loves them. Sometimes a farce is just what the doctor ordered.

Kenneth was a comedy genius. Far funnier and more intelligent than any gay performer these days. Yes he was tragic, like many gay men then, but so what? He was hilariously funny and witty. I still love him in Carry on Screaming, Carry On Cowboy, Carry On Doctor etc real fun. Also his interviews are great. And the "Audience with "he did in 1983 was stellar. A great talent, I don't care what you lot think.

Matron -"Take me doctor you don't know how long ive been yearning to give you my ALL" Kenneth -" But i don't want your all......I don't even want a little bit"

He was fantastic. Post your favourite Jenny lines from carry ons.

"Frying TONIGHT!!"

Some of you are so miserable. Kenny was a really funny man. He made me laugh , which is more than most comics do now.

ENNETH: "They will die the death of a thousand cuts!" PRINCESS JELHI: "Oh! But that’s horrible!" KENNETH: "Not at all my little desert flower, the British are used to cuts!"

"Thomas I want you , I feel like a good wine that's been left to go off after just one sip"

"Well for heaven's sake put the cork back" Kenneth and joan sins in Carry On Henry

Kenneth somehow made himself likable to the general public, which is remarkable considering how he was - eccentric if you will, though he denied that label. I think it was his switching from the upper crust accent to cockney to show he wasn't full of himself.

My favourite line is from Carry on Camping:

Matron: I assure you I'm worth waiting for. Kenneth: Yeah, so's Christmas but you won't catch me stuffing your turkey!.

I used to love Kenneth Williams and was looking forward to reading some biographies - turns out he was a very nasty, passive-aggressive arsehole. I felt bad for him at first but he really did bring his misery upon himself.

Apparently, Carry On Cleo was filmed on the sets originally designed for Cleopatra, abandoned when the production shifted to Italy.

Michael Sheen as Kenneth Williams

Uber-hetero Sheen's done a few gay roles now.

So are these two sisters or wot?

It's a shame that Kenneth Williams is not better known among American gays. An incredible storyteller he was...

MATRON: TAKE THEM AWAY!

I'm ignorant. I don't understand the word 'cottaging' . I googled it and found a sign prohibiting cottaging but no explanation. I'm not stupid; I know it must mean having sex in a certain place...is cottage a euphuism for bathroom?

R56, yes, it's sex in public restrooms

r56 Public toilets in British parks were usually isolated single floor buildings that looked like cottages.

KW hated them (cashed the checks though), but the Carry On movies are pretty fun to this Yank. Babs and Sid James looked rough as hell!

I always preferred him in radio. Radio 4 extra replays a lot of the old shows he was in. Round the Horn - where Julian and Sandy appeared, Hancock’s half hour, and he was a great panelist on Just a Minute.

I always preferred him in radio. Radio 4 extra replays a lot of the old shows he was in. Round the Horn - where Julian and Sandy appeared, Hancock’s half hour, and he was a great panelist on Just a Minute.

Julian and Sandy!

R57 / R58 Thank you.

I believe cottaging is a Polari term?

No. It's explained above.

I wasn't contradicting anything stated above, R65.

How well known was he in Britain? It is so weird to see such an openly gay man on an entertainment TV show iof that period.

It would have been unthinkable in the US.

R67, he was a household name. I can’t imagine there were many people who hadn’t heard of him and he was very popular.

r67 Quite a lot of entertainers in Britain in this period started off as variety acts in music hall. So most of them had a theater background. That music hall tradition is also probably the reason the British working class seem to love camp and drag humour more than other nations.

R67, he also claimed publicly to be celibate. Even after they legalised it.

Read William’s diaries. A bit of a hard read. He behaved appallingly to people who showed him kindness like Gordon Jackson and his wife. I know people who lived close to him in London and they said he was always a sour unpleasant man. He had a great admiration for his own intelligence.

Well, he killed himself R71, so it all evens out I guess.

Maggie Smith has being doing a Kenneth Williams tribute act for the last 50 years.

Honestly, KW should be the patron saint of DL, at least the vast part of it that (we are told) is old and sexless and full of self-hatred.

Kenneth Williams and Maggie Smith reciting "Death in Leamington" to Sir John Betjeman. Quite touching.

My late partner was a writer and songwriter and knew him well because he wrote some songs for Williams. He is mentioned in the diaries because Williams fancied him. Williams was indeed celibate and essentially a deeply unhappy man. They all had great affection for him ( apart from Sid James ). Even though he could be very difficult he could also be very good company.

The Carry On films were in the tradition of music hall and saucy seaside postcards. No one expected the first to be as successful as it was but they were all happy to capitalise on that success. Of course they got steadily worse and of course they have dated badly. But, it’s true, I can’t imagine any mainstream film in the US featuring outrageously camp gay men so prominently. Along with Williams there was Charles Hawtrey. And while they were closeted in the sense it was never mentioned no one was ever in any doubt about it. That was part of the joke.

Growing up gay in the 60s and 70s in the UK it wasn’t hard to find gay men in film and on tv. Along with Williams and Hawtrey, there was John Inman in Are You Being Served, Danny La Rue had a prime time show in drag and Larry Grayson had his own very popular show and his whole thing was playing up the camp old queen schtick. The problem was finding a gay role model that wasn’t outrageously camp. There were none, of course. But there was ‘Roll on 4 O’Clock on tv in 1970. Written by Colin We’ll end who later went on to write Chariots of Fire. It was about a gay boy bullied at school and showed life exactly as it was.Certainly where I grew up.

It’s too easy to criticise men for being closeted through the lens of the present day ( see the trolls posts above). Back then it was inevitable that, at some point, you would have the shit kicked out of you or possibly even be killed. The police would even be in on it. So, the Carry On films were strangely radical in that way.

Bollocks...Colin Wellend. Spellcheck is bullshit.

For what it's worth, R64, Wikipedia agrees with you.

R76, you forgot Frankie Howerd who was also of that ilk. I have a notion Frankie was partnered by the early seventies though. Would need to check.

R76 Great post. Thank you.

r76 I agree an anachronistic criticism is unfair, particularly a judgement on their preferred style of closet. However, I do think it's valid to question what that means now, and whether it's fair to see it as just a lark.

R79 also Benny Hill

And though he wasn't gay he was very camp - Dick Emery.

KW's "The Marrow Song" ought to be the DL theme song.

"He was a very bad influence on maggie Smith" 😂😂

I have one of the books he wrote, lavishly autographed. Very, very Kenneth.

[Quote] Who’s the Queeniest Queen That’s Still Alive?

Mario Cantone.