Mindhunter S2 will premiere August 16

Such a fascinating series!!! I'm looking forward to it.

Oh I liked her. And she's the daughter of DL fav Paul Gross.

Excited the show is back.

Finally!

Is this a good show? Never heard of it

need to see more of groffs phat booty

The show is good and JG is very good in it, but he plays someone who, shall we say, struggles with empathy, so not very likable - on purpose. It is a departure from type for him and I thought the show was fascinating, but his character wasn't exactly beloved.

Teaser photos released.

Love Anna Torv, even if she is the poor man's Cate Blanchett.

r7 Isn't that like the third or fourth Manson take this year? What's up with that?

Is Manson even a "serial killer" or just a psycho?

There is a difference between being a serial killer and just being responsible for killing a bunch of people.

[quote]Isn't that like the third or fourth Manson take this year? What's up with that?

You’re not very good at math or history, are you? Hint: 2019-1969=50.

R9 And it’s the same actor from the upcoming Tarantino movie.

Trailer.

r11 There's no need to be an enormous cunt about it, dear. No, I'm not American, so naturally I don't know everything about L.A. history. Hence my question.

I'm watching them film right now.

R15 Are you in Pittsburgh?

I am, r16. But I was wrong. They're actually filming a movie called Manhunt.

Very excited ti see it come back. All three of the leads--Groff, Holt McCallany, and Anna Torv--are first-rate actors. And they all play such genuinely original characters. Groff's Ford is like an Aspie, and is a tiny bit sexually freaky despite looking like a straight arrow. McAllany looks like a scary tough guy, and who is with criminals;but is actually a thoughtful, empathetic man who tries to be good as both a husband and father. And Torv is a socially awkward lesbian academic who lives in her head but who is still very appealing.

All three of them are oddballs, and all three of them are quite likeable. they haven;t had enough drama for their relationships this season, and I hope they'll intesify that this year.

I am impressed they are going to tackle the Atlanta Child Murderw case this year, since that was the messiest serial case ever. Although the press and even the police treated it as all the work of one killer, and finally convicted Wayne Williams for two of the murders, there's little reason to believe all the attributed deaths were thw ork of one person., The murder victims were of many ages (the two Williams was convicted of killing were both adults), of both genders, and were killed in multiple ways; there were actually probably several killers, and they were equally probably unknown to one another.

I’ve loved sexy Holt every since I first saw him many years ago play the scary Native American thug in Creepshow 2.

He speaks fluent French too!

OMG! I had no idea that was him!

^Yep

It's amazing to me McCallany is the son of Julie Wilson, of all people.

He speaks such beautiful French because he studied in Paris (French, art, and theatre) after graduation from high school. Though he most often plays heavies, he is a very cultured man.

I am glad to see him finally get such a good role on such a beautifully written series. For those of you have not seen it, [italic]Mindhunter[/italic] is very much like Fincher's best film, [italic]Zodiac,[/italic] and is done with his same intelligence and level of attention to detail. It's one of the best shows on TV right now, and is superbly acted.

^indeed.

the first season was really good. can't wait to start binging tomorrow night

[quote] Is Manson even a "serial killer" or just a psycho?

[quote] There is a difference between being a serial killer and just being responsible for killing a bunch of people.

You obviously must not be following the show.

In season 1, the two leads are not only interviewing serial killers -- they're also interviewing spree killers like Richard Speck. In fact, in the show's first season they've not even invented the term "serial killer" yet (they have instead used the term "sequence killer"), and have yet to distinguish fully between spree killers and serial killers. The show is based on the FBI men who actually [italic]made[/italic] the distinction the rest of us now use. So for them to be interviewing Speck orManson is because they're still trying to figure out the distinction.

Correction: In the second to last episode of S1, the team starts using the term "serial killer" rather than "sequence killer," and also makes the distinction between serial killers and spree killers.

but they are actually investigating both kinds in the series, though the serial killers have had more attention.

Is this actually fiction or did this trio really exist and work together? The serial killers are obviously real people and cases but what about the other characters and storylines?

Holden Ford is based on FBI agent John Douglas and Bill Tench is based on Robert Ressler.

The three main characters are based on real people in or working with the FBI: Holden Ford is based on FBI agent John E. Douglas (who co-wrote the original book "Mindhunter"), Bill Tench is based on FBI agent Robert K Ressler, who has been credited with coining the term "serial killer," and Wendy Carr is based on Ann Burgess, a Boston College professor (but of nursing, not sociology), who worked with the FBI Behavioral Science Unit on serial killers, serial rapists, and child molestors.

Douglas and Ressler did work together in the same unit, and collaborated at times with Burgess. But they were not the only core people on the team, as the show suggests.

Thanks R29 and R30.

Does Groff have graphic hereto sex scenes again?

*hetero

SPOILERS through episode 3:

So far (three episodes in) it's been really good. They got rid of the annoying FBI Assistant Director from last season who was always riding their ass, and brought in Michael Cerveris as the new chief--and he's very into what they're doing and has given them a lot of resources. In the first episode they also do some intelligent stuff with the former Assistant Director being forced out that was well handled and believable.

The focus this season seems to be on the BTK KIller in Wichita (whom we had seen last season preparing to kill someone, but failing when she did not show up at her house before midnight), and the Atlanta Child Killer. Learning about both of these murderers is fascinating--the BTK Killer's initial murder of four members of an entire family was the inspiration for the Tooth Fairy/Francis Doiarhyde in "Red Dragon." They had Bill Tench and a local policeman amke a very creepy visit through the abandoned home of the family (the Oteros), showing where they were all killed and how. There was a very signature David Fincer scene in the second episode where Tench interviews a man in Wichita who was nearly killed by BTK at the time the latter murdered his sister--but he is so traumatized he cannot face Tench, and the interview is conducted in Tench's car, with Tench's back to him (we never get a good look at him).

The Atlanta Child Killings are even more interesting--I did not know how little attention those murders were given at first because the victims were poor and black. Ford finds out about the murders by accident when in Atlanta to interview two other serial killers.

Ford's girlfriend from season 1 is gone. There's a new subplot--I think invented--with a child found murdered in the basement of a house Tench's wife is showing (she's a realtor). There's not enough yet of Wendy Carr (my favorite character), but the show is more quickly paced than last season. There's still very little actual action, and very little bloodshed is shown (when it is, it's almost always through quick glimpses of crime scene photos, like last season). In the second episode Tench and Ford interviewed David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam--the actor who played him looked just like the real one except he really looked like he was wearing makeup. They've also shown Ford interview two real-life serial killers in Georgia (with the black FBI detective from last season who applied to join their unit), William Pierce Jr. and William Hance.

I don't understand the first scene. Was that BTK's wife? Some random lady who's home he'd broken into? The music was annoying as fuck and it distracted me.

Just watched episode 1 and I’m creeped out even though there was no criminal. That last scene outside the party. Really feel for Holden.

[quote] I don't understand the first scene. Was that BTK's wife? Some random lady who's home he'd broken into? The music was annoying as fuck and it distracted me.

It was; but i don't understand why he called her "Joanne." Dennis "BTK" Rader's (now ex-)wife is named "Paula."

In episode 5, they interview Charlie Manson and Tex Watson.

On episode 7 and it’s great.

In Episode 6, Wendy and Gregg interview Paul Bateson, the radiology technician from "The Exorcist" (Wiulliam Friedkin cast him when he went to the radiology lab for the infamous scene) who picked up a trick at The Anvil, went home with him, fucked him and stabbed him to death. He was always suspected as "The Bag Murderer" who killed leathermen he picked up in NYC and dismembered them and dumped their bodies into the East River in plastic garbage bags. William Friedkin was so freaked out by all this that he made the film of Cruising, which had been written in 1970 but had eerily anticipated the Bag murders.

The scene is interesting--Bateson is played by an actor who looks just like him, and talks about leather and S/M and why he likes it and how close it can come to killing someone. he also says most gay men have to start as bottoms in order to learn how to be tops.

does groff get naked?

Not so far.

sad : / his ass looked so phat in s1

R43 His ass still looks thick.

This show is excellent but they cannot cast a decent love interest to save their lives. The actress who plays Wendy's gf is painfully bad. Although, I'm already into ep 8, I keep wondering if they are going to have Holden get romantically involved with the hotel desk agent who exposed him to the Atlanta child murder cases under the guise of a hookup. She's very pretty.

I've watched 1-3 so far and a few things stuck out to me: The director could have been a little more subtle that Wendy was going to make a move on the bartender - they had at least 3-4 shots of her staring off from Holden and Bill and giving her the eye. When Bill was interviewing the victim who got shot by BTK, he said he would got back to the fact that BTK put a pillow under the victims head, but he never did. Does Holden have an office? Wendy and Bill do obviously, but it seems that Holden sits at a desk in the open office.

The last thing is that all three of the leads seem to HATE each other - there is no warmth or hardly any emotion beside disdain during their conversations. Like when Bill picked up Holden from the hospital, when Wendy and Bill made up after him accusing her of giving the tape to the investigators, etc. Just massive bitchfaces! They seem to hate the 4th team member (name). They sit around listening to the killers tapes and they all have deadpan faces. Also, they all seem to give this disgusted side-eye while another person is speaking. Tench is always giving people the stinkeye. When they were questioning the black prisoner Nance, the black FBI guy started talking and the camera focused on Holden giving him this look like "why are you talking? I'm in charge here". The subject they deal with is horrible but all of these people should be on some antidepressants.

John looks really good in that photo.

Ah revoir my lovelies. I shall see you again when I’ve finished the season.

I agree with R46 due to the scene where the director gives the team a bigger office space and Bill Tench cleans out his office and tells the rest of the team that he's going to be sitting outside in the new space even before it has furniture, etc. He had such a look of disgust on his face during that scene and I couldn't understand why he was acting so testy.

He seems to despise Ford now, for reasons that I can't decipher.

[quote]The last thing is that all three of the leads seem to HATE each other - there is no warmth or hardly any emotion beside disdain during their conversations. Like when Bill picked up Holden from the hospital, when Wendy and Bill made up after him accusing her of giving the tape to the investigators, etc. Just massive bitchfaces! They seem to hate the 4th team member (name).

Bill and Wendy get along but Wendy, of course, approaches everything in a detached manner because it's her job & she's hiding herself.

Bill has other things going on in his personal life because he can't balance it with his professional one so anything at work that drags him away from it causes him to become colder or downright mean towards anyone. Also having anxiety attacks is not something people generally gave a shit about back when this show would have taken place. So of course he thinks Ford should just calm down & he's annoyed at the reason he missed work. Wendy has to explain to Bill how serious it is.

They are all annoyed at Ford because he doesn't listen. Even Groff describes his character as arrogant. They almost all lost their jobs because of him. He also put himself in danger.

The 4th team member betrayed them all. They clearly don't forget that during S2 and neither does their boss. Him being homophobic doesn't win him any points with currently closeted lesbian Wendy.

[quote]They sit around listening to the killers tapes and they all have deadpan faces. Also, they all seem to give this disgusted side-eye while another person is speaking.

I think part of the point is it's damaging all of them. This new way of looking at why serial killers do what they do in order to catch them isn't something any of them are psychologically prepared for. They try to stay detached but it's seeping into their personal lives.

But yes, they do all have issues with each other except for Bill & Wendy.

The opening scene was fantastic and the use of Roxy Music was inspired. Really set the tone for the season. I'm rewatching it already.

Bill's wife is a nagging bitch! He's catching serial killers not throwing drinks back at the club! Bill can't drop everything for her psycho kid who doesn't care if his dad is home or not.

Holt McCallany is hot Irish daddy now. I've seen him in so many guest spots over the years in police procedurals. He has this sort natural raw masculinity; holy shit he is even hotter now.

I just finished the last episode wow, what a great show. I'm glad we got to know the main characters better. I agree Bill's wife was a nag. She should've known what she signed up for marrying a FBI agent. But i also think she was freaked out about their kid and really needed him to be there and he just couldn't. I liked the Wendy / Kay storyline. Wendy was pretty harsh at the end.

Don't care for little neo serial killer Brian.

Holt is a zaddy.

Only on E3. I miss Debbie though!

Has Holt ever married? He doesn't ping at all but not all guys do.

Ted Gunn looks like Dr. Evil

[quote] The last thing is that all three of the leads seem to HATE each other - there is no warmth or hardly any emotion beside disdain during their conversations. Like when Bill picked up Holden from the hospital, when Wendy and Bill made up after him accusing her of giving the tape to the investigators, etc. Just massive bitchfaces!

Only at the beginning of the season (i.e. the first three episodes), and that's because it picks up the day after season 1 left off. At the end of season 1, both Bill and Wendy were absolutely furious with Holden (who frequently annoyed them anyway) because he almost destroyed the whole program and all their hard work by his unprofessional behavior during the Speck interview, when he referred to the eight nurses as "juicy cunts." In addition, Wendy was disgusted he would say something so misogynistic. They were furious with him, and rightly so. (In addition, panic attacks absolutely were not as well understood in 1980 as they are now, so Bill thinks he was malingering in the hospital.)

As the season wears on, they become nicer again to Holden, although they are always suspicious of him, and he still frequently jeopardizes their investigations with his arrogance and his social awkwardness. You'll see this especially in the next few episodes when they go to Atlanta and he pisses off police and teh distriuct attorney there by being rude and impatient with them.

Holden is supposed to be a bit on the spectrum, as they say. He is not always lovable, even though he is played by a handsome actor (and is basicallya decent human being).

[quote] They seem to hate the 4th team member (name).

Gregg was foisted upon them because of office nepotism, and then they all suspected (and later confirm) that he passed the Speck tape on to OPR which almost got them all fired.

If they are going to do a show about the Atlanta Child Murders.who will they have to play Jessie Jackson. I recall watching him run to the Atlanta news cameras to blame whitey for the killings.

Michael Cerveris is not a handsome man.

SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE SEASON:

Seeing this season brings back for me memories of the Atlanta child killings of 1980-81. I had forgotten about it. It went on for so long, and that so many (22!) were killed. Before Wayne Williams was arrested, a boy would go missing every two-three weeks, and then turn up either strangled or asphyxiated, and it would make national news by the end of it (it was almost completely ignored by the press for the first ten killings, as the show makes clear). The frustration of the Atlanta African-American community was understandably enormous. I liked that the season really spotlighted the troubling racial dynamics of the case, not only of the slowness of the FBI and the Atlanta PD in trying to solve the case, but also in the profiling of the killer as a black man. Even to this day even Wayne Williams's conviction for the murder of the two adults has troubled many, and it was never proven in a court of law he murdered any of the children (even though the murders did stop after he was publicly accused of being the killer and then arrested and convicted).

The season was well done, although the weakest parts were the scenes involving the private lives of Bill and Wendy. (Holden had no love interest the whole season, and thus no private life. (Unfortunately, we saw nothing of Jonathan Groff's naked torso or ass.) Wendy's big blowup with her girlfriend happened too quickly and without enough preparation, and it wasn't integrated well with the rest of the season. It also seemed really odd Bill would have said nothing about Brian's involvement in the child killing to Holden until the 2nd to last episode, since it explained why he had to keep going back to Virginia all the time and he knew Holden was unhappy he wasn't in Atlanta more often.

They had great lookalikes for the serial killers and the other famous historical people who appeared... including Frank Sinatra!

I agree the woman who played Wendy's love interest Kay was not great. I was also disappointed with the woman who played Bill's wife Nancy--she had such rich material this season and just did not rise to the occasion--I hope we will not see much of her or their creepy child next season, given what happened at the end with that storyline.

June Carryl was exceptional as Camille Bell, the mother of the one of the earliest murdered Atlanta children who became one of the organizers of STOP--this was the best performance this season. She never eased up, but you completely understood why.

The best scene all season was Bill's interview in the car with the one man who survived the BTK Killer. I can't believe that guy didn;' leave Wichita right away after surviving the attack, like the woman did whom BTK was going to kill but who didn't show up at her house (she left Kansas the next day after BTK announced to the press he had tried to kill her).

I predict for Halloween this year many people will go as the BTK Killer, and wear that incredibly disturbing woman's face mask with the satin slip he wore when he staged his reenactments of his murder victims' final moments. That was so freaky.

No Spoiler, just a question.

In the Manson episode to me it seems Leslie Van Houten is deliberately left out when all the killers are named and their photos shown.

Anyone know why that would be?

I was expecting Bill to come home and discover little psycho Brian had killed Nancy.

[quote]Has Holt ever married?

No. He’s friends with Dean Winters from Oz, who has never married either. They’re both in that same middle aged, banged a lot of chicks in their day but never decided to settle down with one club.

[quote] I was also disappointed with the woman who played Bill's wife Nancy--she had such rich material this season and just did not rise to the occasion--I hope we will not see much of her or their creepy child next season, given what happened at the end with that storyline.

I'm also very disappointed with the actress playing Nancy. Instead of winning my sympathy, I found myself feeling mostly contempt for her. I'm puzzled as to why a series as good as this seems to have so much trouble casting the love interests of its three main characters.

I thought Nancy was very effective when she was sitting outside smoking and talking about how she was glad she wasn't a blood relation to Brian. It was clear she was done nagging and was going to act.

Good show but I hate that all Netflix's original shows have such short seasons, feels like they have to skip or skim storylines to get everything to fit.

I dislike the entire Brian storyline. Way too contrived--Bill is studying serial killers and now has to worry if he's raising a future one? How convenient.

[quote] It also seemed really odd Bill would have said nothing about Brian's involvement in the child killing to Holden until the 2nd to last episode, since it explained why he had to keep going back to Virginia all the time

This didn't seem odd at all. Bill has made it explicitly clear before that his private life is off limits and he keeps it out of the workplace. The only reason he mentioned it to Wendy is because she's a doctor of psychology. It seems like his relationship changed with Wendy this season. He values her opinion and respects her, but its almost like the two of them have become Holden's parents in a way - they are being tasked to become his minders and there's a bit of resentment in that - so he sees her as the other "adult" he can talk things over with in a non-exasperating way. And her reasoned ant thoughtful insights are a counterpoint to his wife's growing hysteria and depression, so I suspect that Bill will be the first person Wendy comes out to.. I can see why Bill would be slow to warm back up to Holden while he's trying to sort out his family drama.

I admit that I rolled my eyes, too, at the budding killer storyline with Bill's son, but then I started to appreciate how it changed Bill's perspective when they were researching their interview subjects. He's starting to question the nurture vs nature debate and feeling a bit more empathy towards their subjects as we saw with him defending Henley being a 14 year old manipulated emotionally by an adult, how do they determine right and wrong. I also liked how you see Bill begin to share stories with his son and be more of himself around him, like cursing in front of him, that was a nice beat when the kid looks at him like he's really seeing him for the first time. I think its more likely that Brian is just autistic and the suggestion that he's a Dexter in the making will fade by next season as we see him start to respond more and more to Bill's attention, especially if he and Nancy divorce.

What I found odd was how Bill is suddenly becoming the life of the party by sharing crass stories about the serial killers they've interviewed, when last season he was giving Holden shit for doing the same.

R65 I'm guessing that they were focusing more on the Tate murders, than the LaBiancas in that scene.

I appreciate that they brought up Mary Brunner and Bobby Beausoleil and their crime. Their's was an interesting take on the Manson Murders. Tex was a bit too sympathetically portrayed for me. Since so many of their interviews were with men I would have liked them to interview Susan (Sadie) Atkins. She was a fucking piece of work.

I'd like to see them interview a woman. Aileen Wuornos didn't commit her killings until 1989 or so, so she's a few years off. Diane Downs's killings are 1983--she was a multiple murderer rather than a serial klller, but so were Speck and Manson and Watson. Maybe they'll let Wendy interview a woman to bring her in more, since she wants to do the interviews.

I assume soon enough we will see them interview Ted Bundy and Henry Lee Lucas, both of whom were in prison by this point,.

This season was very strong. The Atlanta Child Murders are not as well known as they should be so it is great this show has given them attention. All the skepticism about Wayne to this day is silly to me. The proof is in the pudding, as soon as he was watched and eventually put in prison the murders stopped.

Wendy felt very removed from the action this season, I guess that is inevitable with them being in the field but it's a difficult position for the show to navigate.

The real Ford got in trouble during the Atlanta case for telling to much to the press, guess the show didnt want to include that.

I expected them to have Ford fall into a coma at the end, I guess we will deal with that next season. I am assuming they are including that since they spent time establishing the panic attacks.

So the situation with Bill's son is based on the crucification murder that happened in San Francisco. It is stretch to put this happening with the son of our lead characters, and at first it annoyed me but I do think the way it is forcing Bill to confront the nature vs nurture aspect is interesting. But in the show that usually feels pretty real (and largely is real), that does feel like a very we want to create melodrama type plotline.

[quote]I agree the woman who played Wendy's love interest Kay was not great. I was also disappointed with the woman who played Bill's wife Nancy--she had such rich material this season and just did not rise to the occasion

I agree that both actors were pretty weak, it stands out because so much of the acting on this show is really strong. I continue to be amazed at how they bring the psychopaths to life. They find people who are both talented and look so much like the real person. That can't be easy. That was Manson, captured him perfectly.

I love they included Dean Corll/Wayne Henley. We've had a lot of monsters in America and for my money Corll was one of the very worst.

One of the things that's really surprising to me is hat there are so few serial killers anymore. They recently caught Samuel Little who has killed maybe as many as 90 women, but they weren't even aware that those murders fit a pattern and were connected until they caught him. I don't think the police know of any right now who are still actively killing: the Long Island Serial killer hasn't been charged with any deaths since 2010, and the Chillicothe, Ohio killer has not killed anyone we know of since 2015. And the so-called Smiley Face Killer probably does not even exist since most of the drownings of the dead young college students were accidental.

I guess in this age of constant camera surveillance and DNA evidence its just much harder to be a serial killer, and the guys who would be get captured after their first murder.

[quote]and the Chillicothe, Ohio killer has not killed anyone we know of since 2015

Because he is dead. The Chillicothe serial killer was definitely Neal Falls, who in a hollywood ending was killed by a woman he picked as a victim.

Another recent serial killer was Bruce MacArthur whose last victim was in 2017.

The thing is even in the modern era it is easy for murders/disappearances to not be linked. There are definitely serial killers out there operating that we don't know about.

Just finished it. I wish it had been longer. I don't want to wait another 2 years for the next one.

I don't want to have to wait another 2 years for season 3

Is Wendy supposed to be on the spectrum?

[quote]In Episode 6, Wendy and Gregg interview Paul Bateson, the radiology technician from "The Exorcist" (Wiulliam Friedkin cast him when he went to the radiology lab for the infamous scene) who picked up a trick at The Anvil, went home with him, fucked him and stabbed him to death.

That trick was Variety film critic Addison Verrill, so it’s more accurate to say he was the one picking up the trick (unemployed Bateson) and ended up paying for it.

There were three separate sets of possible serial killers in the NYC gay community in the 60s and 70s— the Salt & Pepper duo; the 1973-75 murders of 6 men, most around the Village, and then the leatherman “bag” murders.

The Salt & Pepper case involved a cop named Randy Jurgensen going deep cover into the gay community to find the two guys— Salt and Pepper as one was black and one was white— who were carrying out violent shakedowns of men at gay bars. This story was the inspiration for the novel Cruising. Friedkin used the book, the leatherman murders, and the Bateson case in his adaptation.

Bill needs to introduce Wendy to “Mommy’s friend” Ms. Leland.

So well done. Great series.

The Guardian is triggered.

I'm re watching it from the beginning. Season 1. And I don't get how a hostage negotiator can be so inartful and sort of tone deaf to reading the people he is interacting with. It's a subtle evolution and really impresses me with how talented Groff is. Because over the course of Season one his personality evolves or becomes clearer and his partner/mentor Tench is excellent at "reading the room". He's good too. He's more "cut to the chase" but he's also very intelligent, very sharp. But characters are played with a lot of subtlety and that's another Funcher signature.

Well, remember there was no such thing really as hostage negotiator when Holden started doing it--the story of the show is he basically was one of the people who invented the job. He has many of the skills but not some of the others.

Daddy! 😮

You get off on really bad photoshop r91?

That's a real photo from this article in Men's Journal. Not everyone can be a greasy hunk of lard like you.

I don't care about Holt.

The family story was too soap opera ish.

Saw the kid being part of the toddler murder and that Bill would come home to an empty house a mile away.

I do not care to watch that storyline if there’s gonna be a 3rd season. And no more lesbian sex.

More Ford ass!

We don't care about you.

I FF through the lesbian scenes.

Stranger Things, GLOW, and now Mindhunter. I'm sick of Netflix's lesbian fetish.

r97, The lesbian scenes were magnificent. And its about time we see more gay women on television just as gay men. A friend and I were discussing this. Lesbians have been overlooked lately being intimate on all the hot series.

It's not just a Netflix thing.

I've said this for a while but it seems like when shows want to include LGBT characters they easily opt for the L since lesbians to straight men are seen as more palatable while the network gets to score inclusiveness points.

I was a kid growing up in Houston when the Coril murders happened. I was probably around 5 but I remember they showed graphic scenes of the police pulling bodies out of a house wrapped up in plastic sheeting. My partner had no idea about Coril, never heard of him.

I was a kid growing up in Houston when the Coril murders happened. I was probably around 5 but I remember they showed graphic scenes of the police pulling bodies out of a house wrapped up in plastic sheeting. My partner had no idea about Coril, never heard of him.

I have no trouble with there being no gay male love interest--I'm just happy with there being a gay character at all with an active love life, even if it's a woman. I don't have to get off on every TV show.

But they just had a hard time this season with Wendy's character--she was not integrated at all into either of the main cases (BTK or the Atlanta Child Murderer). I liked it very much the first season when she would offer intelligent insight into things Bill and Holden had neglected to see as important in their interviews, and she just didn't do that this season enough.

[quote]I don't care about Holt.

Why? He ten times sexier than Griff or Groff or whatever his name is. You have zero good taste.

OP's photo is plenty hot.

^Meh. He’s a boy. Holt is a MAN.

Did BTK's wife actually find him dressed up and bound?

You know watching the BTK wife sequences I had to wonder. How many wives or mothers or siblings know they have a very pervy serial killer in their midst? And they do nothing. Say nothing.

I'm sorry I don't find Holt attractive. He's too beefy. I'm also put off by his lack of fathering skills. That little boy is pitiful. And he just can't be bothered. I expected his wife to leave him, but for him to come home to the empty house was a bit much. Yeah, soap opera-ish.

In the time frame of the show the word serial killer was just invented a year ago r108 by this team. The idea that these type of behaviors correlate some specific personality type of a psycho murderer he a concept that doesn't exist yet in the public. All these things we take for granted as modern viewers was largely invented in the time frame of the show.

I doubt these women know their household perv is killing people.

It was strange not to have any reference to Ford's life outside of work this season, romantic or otherwise, where as for the other two characters it was a major arc for one and a minor, but thoroughly explored arc, for the other.

Well, Holden did think he was getting lucky with the hotel clerk.

But the 2nd season ended with him doing exactly what he was doing in the first ever episode, alone in his kitchen washing a stain off his cuff.

The first season focused on Holden’s misbegotten heterosexual pretensions.

will there be a season 3? Has that been confirmed? How far do we think they will take this. Manson, Berkowitz, Speck, etc. all in prison. The Atlanta Child Murders put to bed in 1981. So what big cases would be out there in the mid to late 80's?

Jeffrey Dahmer

Henry Lee Lucas

Ted Bundy

The Night Stalker

From what I remember cases Ford/Douglas was involved with in the time period were the Tylenol Murders, the Unabomber and Robert Hansen. John Douglas fell into a coma in November 1983 and it was a pretty rough affair where they didnt think he would be able to return to work.

You never know exactly how close to real life they will stay but there is plenty of drama to mine for the next season.

Season 3 not yet announced, but pretty safe bet.

[quote] So what big cases would be out there in the mid to late 80's?

Well, in coming seasons they could interview Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Rodney Alcala (The Dating Game Killer), Ed Gein, and Angelo Buono and Kenneth Bianchi (The Hillside Stranglers), who at this point in the show's timeline (i.e. 1981) are all in jail.

The Eighties were the biggest time ever for serial killers in the US. Some of the most famous cases:

Carl Eugene Watts, the Sunday Morning Strangler, was arrested in 1982

Henry Lee Lucas, the inspiration for the movie "Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer," was arrested in 1983

Robert Hansen, the man who hunted women in the wilderness in Alaska, was arrested in 1983

Larry Eyler, the Interstate Killer in Illinois (arrested in 1984)

Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker of the Bay area (arrested in 1985)

Charles Ng and Leonard Lake were arrested in 1985

Arthur Shawcross, the Genosee River Killer in upstate NY, was arrested in 1989

There are also famous serial killers active during this time who were never caught, like the Tylenol Killer in Chicago, the Connecticut River River Valley Killer, the Honolulu Strangler, etc. And then there are people killing in the 80s who were not arrested until a long time later but who were very much in the news, like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer in Washington.

You also had Christopher Wilder in Florida and Joseph D’Angelo (GSK) on his Southern California kill spree. Randy Kraft would also be in prison/about to be convicted so add him to the list.

The mid-80s is when the Seattle PD attempted to interview Bundy about the Green River Killer, though it was more of a ruse to get Bundy talking about his own crimes as the clock was ticking.

Serial killers had much cooler names before the 70s: the Servant Girl Annihilator, the Giggling Granny, the Nebraska Fiend.

^^^ Who were the ones that named themselves beside BTK and Son of Sam?

r122: Zodiac

Holt McCallany was interviewed, and said they're going to shoot Season 3 and even though it hasn't officially been renewed by Netflix, Fincher doesn't seem too worried. In fact he told Holt that he should plan on committing to 5 seasons. I think Douglas worked on Gacy and one other that was very high profile, and they will likely include them, but I got the impression from what I just read that there are a couple that are less well known, like some guy in Alaska that they plan on showing. They're also expanding the cast.

Here's the article I Read:

Can someone please explain the rationale behind having that big white cross present during the silent procession for the dead children?   I must have zoned out because I didn't grasp the idea around it.  Watching Holden building it frantically and running through back alleys with it seemed to have no payoff.  The scene ended with him and the women who marched in a deadpan staring contest.   What am I missing?  TIA

He told her he was going to provide crosses for them to place as memorials. It was important to Ford not to break his word and let them down again.

R127 I get that, but the whole crosses thing seemed silly to me. Once Holden was confronted with all the red tape just to get a requisition for some flyers to be printed, I couldn't understand why they didn't just go to some local florist and have some cemetery type crosses made to use for memorials in the march.

Holden wanted to put up the crosses so they could use them as traps for the killer, since he had figured out this season that serial killers with sexual fixations love to come back to the scenes of their murders (or their abandoning of corpses--both Ed Kemper and David Berkowitz admitted this to him) and relive the thrill of the murders. So he thought if they left crosses, and then had the march make pilgrimages to the crosses along the way, they could keep tabs on the sites and see who came back to visit the crosses.

The woman leading the Atlanta mothers of dead children was willing to go along with this, but she wasn't that into it as an idea. He had so much trouble with red tape that finally he had to build the crosses himself at the last minute, and was racing to get them in place before the march passed by the sites (he wanted the killer, whom he thought would be following the march of in it, would then see the crosses). He raced to get the one up in front of the church, but as the lead mother came up with the march behind her, she looked at him with contempt because for her the march was really about honoring the dead children and the grief of their mothers and families--she did not think it would be effective in catching the killer.

The crosses had to be built to certain city specifications in order for them to remain in place, which is why he had so much trouble building them in time.

^^^ Yes, that how I remember it too, but that also points out that he was putting it up at the church. I doubt was the location of the murder, which would invalidate why he was doing it? Was it a script writing error?

He was too late. The procession had already passed the locations he wanted.

The Alaska serial killer would be Robert Hansen.

Case reopened.

R11 isn't this like the third time it's been reopened? In 2005 they reopened it after they recovered some more DNA. And the DNA showed dog hair on one of the victims matched his parents dog and human DNA from another victim had a less than 1% chance of being anyone else

[quote]she looked at him with contempt because for her the march was really about honoring the dead children and the grief of their mothers and families

She looked at him with contempt because just as the march was reaching its final destination, all of the marchers got to see a white FBI agent putting up a white cross.

[quote]just read that there are a couple that are less well known, like some guy in Alaska that they plan on showing

Robert Hansen being referred to as some guy in Alaska! Not really attacking you, but it is weird how some people so well known and some aren't, I mean Hansen murdered over 17 woman.

And I think Robert Hansen is likely to be a significant focus, Douglas has talked about how the case showed him a serial killer could be a family man which is the point they have Kemper make to Ford this season. His knowledge of what serial killers can be is still limited.

[quote]What the Hansen case also showed was how “ordinary” violent serial predators can be – how they can have “normal” lives with wives and children and blend in to the community. These guys have developed a tremendous capacity to compartmentalize their lives while still feeding their deadly psychosexual needs.

Also, I can't be the only one wondering about the BTK focus of the show? I mean BTK wasn't captured until 2005. I guess the long term plan is to have the show end in a flashforward where they finally capture him maybe? But the narrative choice to have him as part of the very fabric of the show has always made me wonder why.

BTK was the first case that inspired John Douglas to find out what motivates serial killers. It was Douglas's white whale.

r137, I think in part it's to show how even the BSU had limits as to what they could figure out via their profiling methods.

I would guess it's also because Fincher is probably fascinated by that case. It's the most akin to Zodiac of any serial killer cases of the last 50 years (since BTK named himself, and was such an incredibly methodical planner, and also because he engaged in this cat-and-mouse game with the press and the police), and it's one of the most terrifying (since he was a torturer, and since his first crime was to kill four members of an entire family--he inspired "Red Dragon" because of that). And its yet to be filmed.

Mindhunter did a very good job of portraying the deep racial divide that existed, the suspicion and distrust, etc. So many people in the Black community were convinced that the KKK was killing off their kids, they found it incomprehensible that a young Black man might be the perp. And without being heavy handed about it, They showed how the killer preyed on desperate young kids who were out there hustling trying to make money. He promised them recording contracts, took them to a studio, etc. Like they might be the next Michael Jackson, etc. It was a sad situation. They were able to get a quick conviction on the two adults he murdered, and Williams probably killed a lot of those kids, but it wouldn't surprise me if not all 27 of them were Williams' murders.

Does Jonathan Groff have a boyfriend right now? He really is hot.

Highly unlikely that the two females were killed by Williams. There has never been a case of a homosexual serial killer that preyed on the opposite sex.

Jonathan Groff is absolutely adorable. Seriously hot too. I would love to see him do something with Matt Bomer or Luke Evans.

r109, you are very spot on. It is also why they are so eager to interview Charles Manson because he was infamous and the postercard for "psychopaths" despite being nothing like a serial killer. Ted Bundy was a crazed cult leader, and perhaps spree killer. As it mentioned very often Anna Torv's character, he never actually killed anyone. All this stuff was in the beginning stages; no criminal profiler would call Manson a serial killer.

It was good but I wanted more. It left me wanting more but not in a good way. I feel starved! lol

The Corll shit is something I wish they did a deep dive into. It was seriously one of the worst in the country of all time and there were so many red flags around Houston. Corll eventually started hunting in Pasadena (where he went to elementary with Sharon Tate). He was killed after he killed his last victim who lived just a mile from him in Pasadena as opposed to the other victims who were from North Houston and who Henley knew. Would he have been caught by Pasadena PD if he started hunting there?

Another crazy thing that links the Corll and Atlanta murders is some of the kids were either in child porn or sold their bodies. 11 out of the first 20 Corll victims showed up years later in child porn but Houston PD did not pursue it because they didn't want the families to suffer any more. He killed more than 28.

Love the show, BUT does Groff have to whisper all his important lines? And Netflix has low audio anyway. I have to use the closed caption to even hear him.

The Atlanta Child Murders are fascinating because it does seem like some of the twenty something victims were murdered by someone else.

And not only is the Dean Corll case connected to Atlanta, but John Wayne Gacy apparently was also connected to both by the same pedophile ring.

With the Jeffrey Epstein case making headlines, I am starting to wonder: Is there a massive nationwide (world wide?) pedophile ring? I've always scoffed at the notion, but I'm starting to believe there may be some truth to it.

R143 Groff and Bomer were in The Normal Heart movie.

I know I will get scorn for this. I love Johnathan Groff, I truly do but why does so many of his facial expressions play this as a comedy. Anyone else notice what I'm talking about. He's not a bad actor but does it constantly throughout the series. Its really not fitting to the particular scenes, especially the 2nd season. Is it suppose to be some sort of side effect front the meds he's taking for panic attacks? He needs an acting coach. He is still very good. If Tom Cruise can make it, so can he.

Wendy Carr was such a bitch this season. I am not sure if her character can be redeemed.

Season 2 was so much better then season 1 as it had a cohesive plot, better character development, and focused on one thing — The Atlanta Child Murders.

This guy lays out an interesting theory, R146, though he doesn't mention the Atlanta child murders.

Am I the only one who finds Groff completely unbelievable as a straight FBI agent? His voice is so much higher than anyone else's.

R151, I just see his character as a giant nerd who is way too into serial killers. To me, that's how that kind of a person would sound.

[quote]His voice is so much higher than anyone else's.

He sounds exactly like 90’s era Tom Cruise. It’s uncanny.

it's just that he modulates his voice so much more than any of the other guys he's acting with. And let me tell you that in the 70's, that was a dead giveaway.

I forgot about Normal Heart. Need to watch it again.

Groff’s ass looks like it’s going to tear right out of those ‘70s dress pants.

[quote]The Atlanta Child Murders put to bed in 1981.

No. The entire KKK angle was suppressed by the GBI and then abandoned entirely after a couple of notorious Klansmen passed their (inadmissible in court) lie detector tests. One of them, Charles Sanders, was recorded threatening to murder one of the boys who eventually turned up dead and also mentioned wanting to kill others. He also revealed to this person how lucky he was that Wayne Williams had the same type of dog and carpet that he had.

One theory is that it was all a Klan game (kill one kid per month) and they were forced to stop after the FBI collared Williams and they had a scapegoat. The fibers and dog hair were circumstantial evidence at best and far from conclusive. The mayor, the FBI and the local police forces were under enormous pressure to solve these murders and were quick to lock Williams up and throw away the key. He was never charged with any of the child murders -- no one was. There is no evidence linking him or anyone else to them.

It is FAR from over. At the very least, the whole Charles Sanders angle might have provided reasonable doubt, had any of that been known to Williams's lawyer at the time. But like I said, suppressed/hidden/conveniently abandoned.

Someone upthread asked if any wife had ever turned in a serial killer husband. There was a case in the Houston area with a wife who was pretty sure her husband was a serial rapist. I think they had moved from the Seattle area, and the series of rapes stopped up there and started down here. She was concerned because they had a daughter, and she wanted to be sure that if they separated, she would get full custody. Once she was sure about that, she went to law enforcement.

[Quote]He also revealed to this person how lucky he was that Wayne Williams had the same type of dog and carpet that he had.

Not true. Sanders did have a similar type of dog, but not the same type of carpet. And the KKK angle based on that wiretap was all fully included in this season.

[Quote]One theory is that it was all a Klan game (kill one kid per month) and they were forced to stop after the FBI collared Williams and they had a scapegoat

Yes, you have to go really reach to conspiracy levels to try to explain why the murders stopped once Wayne was under observation...other than the obvious fact he was a murderer.

You are right, the case against Wayne was largely circumstantial, sometimes that's all the evidence you have.

Phew. Binged the whole thing in two days. Think I need to rewatch before I really dive into the comments. I definitely thought it was as good as the first season.

Can anyone who has read the book Mindhunter comment on how graphic it is? Been thinking about reading it but the show is already pretty disturbing. From another forum I got some recommendations for true crime podcasts but again, not sure how deep I want to get into the depravity of serial killers.

[quote]One of the things that's really surprising to me is hat there are so few serial killers anymore.

Criminal Minds has taught us that there are practically hundreds of active serial killers on the loose. That said they are not completely wrong since quick googling reveals that "the FBI estimates that there are between twenty-five and fifty serial killers operating throughout the U.S. at any given time."

[quote]I don't want to have to wait another 2 years for season 3

Unfortunately the reason for season 2 being so late was that Fincher apparently was perfecting the scripts, and wouldn't go into production until they were ready. Same thing could happen with season 3. Like already mentioned Fincher has apparently planned the show to be 5 seasons long. It's a shame if Netflix cancels it before that. I'm afraid if a Netflix show is cancelled it's practically impossible to shop it around for other networks, which is the case elsewhere. I could be wrong, though.

[quote] With the Jeffrey Epstein case making headlines, I am starting to wonder: Is there a massive nationwide (world wide?) pedophile ring? I've always scoffed at the notion, but I'm starting to believe there may be some truth to it.

Quite regularly international pedophile rings get busted. Most probably operate only online but some months ago there was a ring revealed in Europe where pedophiles messaged each other through some statues in a park. It was possibly in Norway or Germany. They had developed their own code language and left messages only other people in the ring could understand. If I remember correctly the statues they were using were of small boys.

R160, John Douglas does describe crime scenes, but I don't remember being particularly disturbed by them. The show stays close to the book in terms of the serial killers. Richard Speck did throw a bird into a fan, Charles Manson did sit on the back of a chair to appear bigger., Wayne Williams was caught exactly how it's shown on the show.

BTK wearing his costume.

NIghtmare fuel

[quote]And without being heavy handed about it, They showed how the killer preyed on desperate young kids who were out there hustling trying to make money. He promised them recording contracts, took them to a studio, etc.

They made the killer and his actions look very real, and not god-like and non-human like serial killers regularly get depicted. This Wayne Williams felt like a real person whom you could easily imagine being very friendly to the boys and then suddenly attacking, raping and finally killing them. The act wouldn't be some godly Hannibal Lecter-like performance but probably a bit clumsy work of a very real and desperate man.

[quote]I don't care about Holt.

I find him super hot, especially with Groff. I might one day have a little fun with myself imagining Special Agent Tench fuck the living daylight out of Ford on one of their hotel trips.

BTW, I only now realized that Cameron Britton who plays Edmund Kemper is also Hazel the hitman (the partner of Mary J. Blige's Cha-Cha) in The Umbrella Academy.

R165 "This Wayne Williams felt like a real person whom you could easily imagine being very friendly to the boys and then suddenly attacking, raping and finally killing them."

Were the boys actually raped or sexual molested? Reading Wikipedia it doesn't say that and if the KKK was involved they wouldn't have gone that far. I remember Ford saying that the killer would get off sexually on the murder, but not necessarily that he was sexual with them. Also, wouldn't they have DNA from semen that they could use to identify the killer?

R166, you're right, I realized after I'd posted that rape hasn't been mentioned in the case. I just filled in the blanks automatically since many times child killers seem to also sexually abuse them, and I was sure while watching Mindhunter that Williams, if he was guilty, did exactly that.

Yes there is no evidence of rape. But as Ford explains, even though killing is generally sexual for serial killers that doesn't mean they rape their victims. As Son of Sam said, he never raped any woman he murdered, but he would just masturbate to it later.

Thanks, R162.

[quote]Yes, you have to go really reach to conspiracy levels to try to explain why the murders stopped once Wayne was under observation...other than the obvious fact he was a murderer.

You really are simple-minded, aren't you? When a group of people are systematically murdering kids in a very high-profile case, when someone else is arrested, they are obviously going to stop. When you are handed a scapegoat, you take it. That isn't a reach, that's just fucking obvious to people who aren't totally stupid.

R160, His books are quite good, especially if you like true crimes/serial killers. I read his books in the late 1990’s and I couldn’t put them down. I prefer detailed descriptions of the crimes, but that’s me. You should definitely read “Mindhunter” it’s a fantastic book.

Yes, r170. They kill 29 times without getting caught, but are compelled to stop because the police arrested someone else. Your logic is unassailable.

Poor Wayne, just happened to on a bridge where bodies where being dumped when they just happened to find a new body. Just happened have a carpet and dog that matched evidence found on the victims. Just happened to have a job that involved him going around picking up kids. Just happened to have the REAL murderer stop killing once he was being watched.

Poor Wayne, so unlucky.

A month after Geter’s body was found, a police informant identified by the code name “B. J. Jones” phoned his contact in the ABPS’s intelligence division and said that he had information about the child murders, particularly the killing of Lubie Geter.

The call stunned his contact. Jones, who had a strong record of providing reliable information, had been one of their best informants for 18 years. He said that in 1978 or ’79 he had met Charles Theodore Sanders, a member of the Ku Klux Klan, a narcotics dealer, and a drug user, who attempted to recruit Jones into the Klan because of his expertise with explosives. The Klan, Sanders told Jones, was attempting to create an uprising among blacks in Atlanta by murdering black children. Sanders said the Klan was also killing black adults, but not in Atlanta. He wanted Jones’ help in committing more murders of Atlanta’s black children.

On January 3, 1981, Lubie Geter disappeared from the Atlanta Mall. Shocked by the disappearance, Jones went to Simpson’s house and told the man’s young son not to go anywhere without his father — with anyone. A month later, Lubie Geter’s body was found. On Geter’s body were found dog hairs thought to belong to a Siberian husky. At the trial, the prosecution did not reveal that Charles Sanders owned a Siberian husky.

[...]

Carlton Sanders has another distinct physical characteristic, a jagged scar on the left side of his neck, the same type of scar Ruth Warren mentioned in her description of Lubie Geter’s presumed kidnapper.

[Quote], I just see his character as a giant nerd who is way too into serial killers. To me, that's how that kind of a person would sound.

Yes, in the first season I thought I was having trouble buying Groff as straight. But thus season I thought they did a good job of highlighting how much he doesn't fit in with other FBI agents because he is too much of a dork and not a traditional man in their type of mold. That actually is a good way to write Groff's portrayal in a way that works.

Situation in Atlanta was extremely tense. The rumors and the conviction that it was the Klan were very intense. The very popular, very respected mayor of Atlanta, Maynard Jacksn, was under a lot of pressure. There was a sort of coalition of corporate investors, businesses, etc. Metro Atlanta was experiencing the beginnings of a economic boom. and the political and business leaders were very afraid of the image these murders were giving the City. Atlanta was dubbed "the city too busy to hate" and prided itself on being progressive as far as race relations. The Klan was going underground except in rural areas. So finding a Black guy who was a pedo who killed Black kids was a huge sigh of relief. If they had tied the murders to a larger plot by the Klan it would have sent Georgia and Metro Atlanta which was becoming an international city, back into the dark ages.

With the ACM, the most reasonable explanation is that there were multiple perps in the black community, not unlike Williams, who were preying on kids and teens. You know, guys from around the neighborhood who hung around with kids, hustlers with no real job, maybe boyfriends to the mothers of these kids, maybe a cousin or other relative. The victimology and MOs are too diverse to be at the hands of just one killer. The Klan orchestrating all or even some of these murders doesn’t seem plausible, but that doesn’t mean some of these murders weren’t motivated by race.

Of course not every single body. Even Douglas himself doesn't think every black kid who died was killed by Williams, a few of them were definitely unrelated murders but Wayne was the perpetrator they were looking for.

Aside from Corll, one of the most brutal serial killers was some guy from Kansas City who would keep his victims alive for WEEKS (up to 6 weeks at the most) torturing them in unimaginable ways- pouring bleach in their eyes, draino in their eyes, throat, injecting draino in their larynx, inserting needles under their nails, electro shocking them over and over on various parts of their bodies, putting calking in their ears, and brutally raping them, fisting them to the point he ruptured the anal wall of one victim. One victim went delirious from the pain and died after weeks of abuse.

Robert Berdella r179

11 of Corll's victims were in some form of child porn. That is not a coincidence and the fact the police did not investigate (and likely find either more victims or something really nefarious and wide spread) is mind-blowing.

Wouldn't it be a total mind fuck to find out Corll and Gacey and the ACM killer(s) were in the same connected CP ring? How is that eleven of Corll's victims were discovered in CP then later murdered? There is no way that is a coincidence. I don't think anyone has gotten or demanded the answers from Elmer Wayne Henley or his other accomplice, David Brooks.

I wonder, had he lived, if Corll would have spilled everything.

There used to be pedophilecells, groups of men who exchanged pictures and views, etc. but since the Internet, they can now expand and grow in ways only dreamed of before. But from what I have read, there have always been networks.

O M G at that Berdalla guy! That is some seriously sick stuff. Keeping his victims alive for so long inflicting that kind of torture? WOW. He would have been worse than Dean Corll had he lived. Dean kept some victims alive for days (we will never know the extent of exactly what he did to them as Henley and Brooks are highly likely leaving out a lot and the police didn't want to dig) though Corll was escalating.

Minhunter should have filmed the scene where Corll is killed by Henley before the interview.

So, I've just started this. I'm on Season 1, episode 4 and I'm conflicted about whether to continue. Frankly, it seems like murder porn. There's so much yakking about what they do and how they do it that it seems like it's pandering to those who get off on that sort of thing. Is the entire series like this?

You probably have to have some sort of interest in true crime, and especially serial killers, to be able to really appreciate the show.

R185, for season 1 you could just watch the interview scenes, or just go right to season 2. Season 2 seems faster-paced to me, while season 1 is sort of plodding. I liked both seasons, though, but I have an interest in true crime.

The music on Mindhunter is so good. Very quiet but also keeps you on the edge all the time.

I felt sorry for the FBI guy with the psycho kid. Psychopaths at work and at home and a wife in denial must be tough.

This season unfortunately focussed less on Holden and his private life. I hope he gets more screen time in season 3, which we probably won't see until 2024.

I’m actually preferring seeing more of Tench and his home life. Watched two episodes of S2 last night and can’t wait to watch more. One scene from episode 2 that freaked me out was when Tench came home to find the back door of his house open. When he peered out and then slowly closed the door, I just knew that someone had gotten into his house.

Loving S2 so far. Great music for us GenXers and the boomers, who still appreciate and recognize the good stuff.

BTK is one of my most researched serial killers. Had he never sent that disc drive over to the police, & had he never killed again, there’s a good chance that he would have gotten away with it up until now. I think they would have zeroed in on him eventually, like they did with the Golden State Killer/ EARS-ON Night Stalker.

R190, did his wife ever find him bound and dressed up, then give him a book on sexual deviance, as depicted in the show?

R191, according to his daughter, who was recently interviewed, the family had absolutely no clue that he was BTK.

I really have to wonder about these people who swear they had no idea their kid, their brother, their spouse, their father was some kind of heinous serial killer. I've read that numerous times in stories about these monsters. Ted Bundy was another one. How can they not know something is a miss? Do they deliberately block out the possibility that when he comes home with blood on his clothes and scratch marks on his face, and he has a room in the basement that remains locked, etc. And didn't Gacy have a family for a minute? How did his house not stink?

I have a question about the Atlanta murders, did this really happen? It's so weird that someone kills almost 30 children and no one really cares (at first). I'm also not sure that Wayne is the killer. His father is highly suspicious and he obviously had no problem that his son changed the carpet in the whole house. What about the mother? And where did he/they kill all those boys? There was no blood or hair in the living room and it certainly did not look like a place where they killed 30 people even if the carpet was a match. The police work here was so sloppy. Why didn't they follow this guy and made sure he was the one? They had absolutely no evidence when they stopped him and he probably destroyed everything afterwards. They spent 6 weeks on these bridges and obviously never thought about the next steps.

Everything to do with the capture of Wayne Williams is very close to how it happened in real life r194.

R194, I haven’t yet reached the episodes where this specific storyline is introduced, however, I was aware that the Atlanta child murders would be part of S2.

These serial murders weren’t an immediate interest to national media, for the simple reason that the children were black kids, from black parents, in black neighborhoods. Same as today.

A missing Madeleine McCann in an entirely different continent will still garner more media interest, public scrutiny and law enforcement manpower than 5, hypothetical, missing little black girls in any US city.

And from my understanding, the case was handled poorly, indeed. Yet I believe they lucky, despite their missteps, and got the right guy.

It wasn't just in Atlanta that cops weren't looking for a serial killer. In Houston, cops told parents that their sons were runaways. It turned out later that many of them were victims of Dean Corll and Elmer Wayne Henley. I was a kid in Houston at the time. I remember reading some of the stories mostly for horror of it. It struck me that my older brother was in the right age group and involved with some creepy people. Back then hitchhiking was pretty ordinary. My brother was dabbling in drugs, hitching, and was even arrested a few times for breaking and entering and drugs. So, that crime sticks with me.

TImes were different. We weren't really aware of serial killers yet. Mass murder and spree killers, yes, we'd heard about those. But the idea of one person killing for years on end without being caught was hard to fathom.

[quote]I never try to paint people either black or white. I always think we’re way too complicated for that. And I simply kept thinking that there had to be a better explanation for why the police completely missed the murders altogether. “Not all the officers were that dense,” I thought. “At least one of them had to figure that one of the boys didn’t really run away,” I said to myself. I pored over those ancient, fading, yellowed police reports, looking to find some officer who sensed something was literally amiss—some cop, for instance, who worked the Heights beat and who might have wondered why there were so many missing persons posters tacked to a telephone pole. But I just couldn’t find that cop.

[quote]Today, of course, with Amber Alerts and the Internet, the police would be immediately on the hunt. What’s more, we live in an era where the phrase “serial killer” is known even to young children. If three or four boys disappeared from one neighborhood, the first thing we would all suspect is that a serial killer was on the loose.

[quote]But you have to understand what that time back then was like. There was no FBI Behavioral Science Unit in the early seventies warning citizens of a certain type of killer who went after a particular group of people (like boys), killing them one by one, with a “cooling-off period” between each murder. There weren’t even missing children pictured on the side of milk cartons. As hard as it is for us to understand today, people in 1973 didn’t snap to the idea of a serial killer.

[quote]And so many people told me that in that era, the general consensus was that there was this rebellion going on among the youth—that many of them wanted to run away and try free love and listen to Janis Joplin and live in communes. A bunch of boys took off from one neighborhood? It was no big deal.

This John Doe is the only unidentified victim of Corll.

I found it interesting that they made the distinction between "spree killers" and serial killers. That post at R197 is excellent. And just look at the Gacy killings and the Dahmer killings. How many had to go missing ?

I think it is the unhealthy attitudes towards sex and sexuality in various cultures that exacerbates the number of serial killers a society produces. I think Religion plays a big role in how society perceives sexuality. The whole notion of good vs evil, suppression and distortion, etc. It's really very sad. Yes these guys are monsters and in many cases, they always were. But some of them were made not born.

One of the most horrifying parts of the Dahmer investigation is the cops refusing to help one of his victims (whom he later killed), a 14 year old boy. They brushed it off as a lover’s spat after three female neighbors called it in to cops.

I remember that, R201. It had to be horrifying for the poor victim to be that close to escaping.

Random thoughts about s2: loved the show overall and the actor playing Wayne Williams was unbelievable. All the performances were incredible. Holt is a sexy mofo.

Those pictures upthread of BTK in his gear are horrifying.

I understand the point of Bill’s family storyline, but it seemed shoehorned in and didn’t end up going anywhere, though if they are planning for 5 seasons, there might be a later season payoff.

I absolutely believe there was more than one unsub in the ACM.

I’ve read a couple of John Douglas books and they’re dry but very good.

I don't really get the Netflix concept. Why do they always wait so long to renew shows? If a show had a very successful first season, they could easily renew it for more seasons right away so viewers don't have to wait 2 years for more. They should finish the first season and if it was a success, continue shooting right away and only take small hiatuses. This way network television produces 24 episodes per years (aka 2 Netflix seasons). Every time a new season comes out 2 years after the last, I have to start all over again with season 1 bc I have totally forgotten about the show. And with the new Disney, Apple and NBC streaming services starting next year, they need a lot more original content. They will also lose a lot of old fan favourite like Friends very soon and do not have a lot of original content right now to fill these gaps.

Agree that the music is great, as is the score. It adds to certain scenes and makes them especially unnerving.

I also noticed that the final episode’s intro music changed from piano to an eerie children’s choir, as though giving a voice to all the murdered children in Atlanta. Those kinds of details always fascinate me.

Network television is about cranking a lot of episodes as fast as possible and that is why it is considered crap r204.

The "Netflix model"of short seasons with long breaks in between is the same thing all cable outlets do. HBO has been doing it well before Netflix.

Giving creators time to make their product is how you get quality content and not just paint by numbers television meant to occupy your attention just enough to distribute their ads.

^Sorry, but only 8-10 episodes per season followed by a 2 year hiatus is just too long to keep me interested. Cable usually only airs one episode per week so it doesn't feel like you don't have to wait that long. Not all the network TV is crap, 4 ads per episode sucks though.

And it's David Fincher we're talking about here. Jake Gyllenhaal said in an interview they sometimes shot dozens of takes for Zodiac just to get a scene right. He mentioned the number 90 but he was possibly exaggerating since he was so pissed off for Fincher being a perfectionist.

R204, the delay is not Netflix’s fault. Fincher works very slowly.

I remember Robert Downey Jr. being pissed at Fincher and insisted he wanted like, 70 takes during Zodiac. and he wasn't exaggerating, Fincher has a reputation.

He made Jake cry. 😭

R211 I never read that anywhere.

Aw, Jake's a big crybaby.

Maybe they cut out the romance because they realized Groff isn't believable as a straight man.

Weird that they totally ignored Holden's private life this season. I think besides his panic attacks in the first two episodes and 2-3 shots of him in his apartment, we learnt nothing new about him this season. Maybe there just wasn't enough time to focus on all 3 main characters with only 9 episodes. I think he is believable as a straight character. My family and some straight colleagues had no idea he was gay IRL.

[quote]I don't really get the Netflix concept. Why do they always wait so long to renew shows? If a show had a very successful first season, they could easily renew it for more seasons right away so viewers don't have to wait 2 years for more.

R204, Sometimes they do renew shows right away. Sometimes they wait a while. Sometimes they renew them two seasons at a time. Sometimes they let the creator take their time. It varies.

Sex Education aired in January and was renewed in February of this year but they haven't even begun to shoot S2 yet.

The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina started in October of 2018, was renewed in December of 2018, then aired the second part of the first season in April in 2019. So technically it was renewed while it was still "airing" S1.

[quote]They should finish the first season and if it was a success, continue shooting right away and only take small hiatuses.

Sometimes they do! They're very into doing "split seasons" right now where they'll shoot 12 episodes of a show or 16 episodes of a show but they'll air the first 6 or 8 as one "season" and then the next 6 or 8 as a second "season" although technically it's still just one season.

But really that depends on the kind of show and creative team. The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina is Greg Berlanti's baby and the people he has on his team are capable of churning out shows like nobody's business. Grace and Frankie is also an easy show to make.

The End of the F***ing World on the other hand (which Netflix co-produces) went on Netflix in January of 2018 (but it originally aired on Channel 4 in 2017) and was renewed in August of 2018 but they haven't even begun production on Season 2 yet. However, it's a bit more of an involved process since the show both airs on British TV and then on Netflix.

But this is David Fincher's project and he takes his sweet time.

[quote]Every time a new season comes out 2 years after the last, I have to start all over again with season 1 bc I have totally forgotten about the show.

This will always be the problem of streaming even if they released shows a year at a time. 1. Because people binge, you aren't forced to watch "weekly" so you get through a season pretty quickly. 2. Because they don't do 24 episode seasons of shows, which I'm happy about, you zip through 6, 8, 10 episodes of a show pretty darn quickly so even shows that come out yearly seem like they were out eons ago.

[quote]And with the new Disney, Apple and NBC streaming services starting next year, they need a lot more original content.

These other streaming services will have the same problem unless they only post one episode a week of shows like Hulu does.

I hate waiting a week, so I don't even start watching until the entire season is up and running.

I've been re watching Mad Men recently and Matt Weiner' true genius really shines through. IMO there a re three shows that are true classics and wear well with time: Mad Men, The Sopranos, and The Wire. Watching three or four episodes at once really gives you a different experience, much better that watching one episode, then wait a week for the next one.

^I love these shows, but I would definitely add Breaking Bad and maybe Friday Night Lights as a great family drama.

Include Breaking Bad with your classics, binge watch list, R217. Much better watching a second time without having to wait a week between episodes.

I really wish Netflix would release Series 1 (and 2 in a year or so) on Blu Ray. Particularly as I'm going to dump Netflix early next year for awhile.

R127 I recommend adding The Americans to your list, excellent TV.

R217, don’t forget to square that off with Breaking Bad, with The Wire being the crown jewel.

But hell yeah, Mad Men is almost perfect. I watched it on air, then streamed it. Loved it even more the second time around.

Is the time period too early for a Herb Baumeister story?

I've probably binged through Mad Men at least 7 or 8 times since its end. Absolutely better watching in succession like that. I came to the show late - it was about to air its final season - so I had minimal wait time between episodes, but its just like reading a favorite novel over and over again, it just gets deeper and more enjoyable.

Waiting for each Sunday to see Breaking Bad in its final season was excruciating. I was so tense the episode after the standoff in the desert, even though *SPOILER* I knew Hank and Gomez were goners. But that is definitely a show that benefits from repeat viewings.

I'm already rewatching S1 and 2 of Mindhunter. I had completely forgotten that the last scene we see of Holden in his apartment furiously trying to scrub out a stain in his cuffs was mirroring the very first scene we see of him in that apartment in Episode 1. I enjoyed the continuity. It suggested to me that Holden may begin to feel stagnant with their methods in the next season. He was already getting quite bored during the interviews when the subjects weren't intelligent like Kemper. The guy who played the white trash killer was hilarious with his line readings.

I kept expecting the creepy kid to have a dismembered doll in his room or something.

Just started watching season 2. Really good so far. One of my favorite shows on Netflix. I've always been weird, always been fascinated by serial killers. If you're like me, you'll really enjoy the show it's very well done.

Very well done show. The first season I focused mostly on Jonathan Groff, but in season two I thought Anna Torv killed it.

I do agree it would have been riveting to show Henley kill Corll before they interviewed him. The Corll story is so brutal and heinous yet isn't well known. There is so much to explore with Houston police ignoring the disappearances and then not investigating more after they had found "enough" victims, 11 of whom were found in child porn stashes after a Houston house was raided.

But Dean Corll was killed in 1973, it doesn't fit the timeline of this show at all.

r229 They could have shown in a flashback.

Doesn’t really fit with the format of the show though. They've almost never shown us the actual acts, but rather how the killers reflect on those acts. Only BTK and his “process” gets that spotlight, and even with him we don’t actually see it. A flashback would’ve been out of place.

Interesting. Fincher did show us a couple of murders in the very atmospheric Zodiac. But in general it was pretty tame.

With Zodiac, Se7en, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and now this, I guess it’s fair to say David has a fixation.

Well he sure is fascinated by killers. Was Se7ven a true story? Weren't Gwyneth and Brad Pitt dating back then?

R234 No Se7ven was an original script, I went to the same high school as the script writer.

my neighbor went to the same college as Brad Pitt and he claims Brad almost graduated but then he ran off to hollywood and he is just shy of a few credits if he wants his degree. My neighbor is a little odd so I don't know if this is true.

^That story is on his IMDB page I think.

Fincher did a lot of Madonna vids (as well as a few for others). They always filmed those vids really quickly. I wonder when he started wanting 100 takes of every scene? I haven't heard of him doing that for this show, either.

R238, you know, as I recall, I think Zodiac was the first movie to be completely digital. No film. I wonder if that has anything to do with his obsession for dozens of takes of most scenes? I do remember Fincher catching some falck for that and he said it was the future and they needed to get over it.

The reason why there were so many serial killers in the mid twentieth century is because of the baby boom without birth control. You had a lot of unwanted males being born in dysfunctional homes that would not have been due to birth control and abortions in later generations.

R240 True, I think.

Fincher loved directing Madonna and he has said he lights a certain female in every film he does like he lit Madonna. He said he didn't light Madonna like this for every take but he said he developed it while shooting their first (EY?) and loved the frame and lighting on her and said he did it only once per vid and once for every female since.

About Corll, I do think a flashback to Elmer Wayne killing Corll before they interviewed him would have been great TV.

assanine scripts considering its fincher…...tho they say he has lost his mojo..

I watch jus for the young hot guy, the one who smokes a lot....NO

R242 He hasn't lost his mojo yet. He is not in Spielberg territory. He is one of the best directors of all time.

[quote]Interesting. Fincher did show us a couple of murders in the very atmospheric Zodiac. But in general it was pretty tame.

You think so? I thought the scene in the park by the water with that couple getting stabbed (the girlfriend to death) was absolutely terrifying, and it was the almost prosaic way it was filmed that made it so hard to watch.

This is my favorite Fincher piece...

^^^ I’ll watch it if she gets stabbed.

She stabs the dance floor with her Fosse-esque moves.

[quote]You think so? I thought the scene in the park by the water with that couple getting stabbed (the girlfriend to death) was absolutely terrifying, and it was the almost prosaic way it was filmed that made it so hard to watch.

Great scene. The opening scene too is unforgettable.

I know it was years ago but I'm still wondering about the foot tickler principal in season 1. Will he return as a serial tickler?

When people say men are greater than women, I remind them there are practically no female serial killers or mass shooters. Some might say but what about Aileen Wuornos, who really was a sex worker with severe PTSD.

Zodiac was boring as bugwipe….

I don't believe that Paula Rader didn't suspect her husband was BTK. When a recording of BTK's voice was played on the news she told Dennis that the killer sounded just like him. Another time she was watching Dennis write a letter and noticed that his spelling was exactly like BTK's. On two separate occasions she caught him trying to hang himself.

^She also saw him with his mask and costume (at least on Mindhunter). Did they ever mention on the news that BTK was wearing a mask and costume?

[Quote] On two separate occasions she caught him trying to hang himself.

Trying to hang himself or autoerotic asphyxiation?

Autoerotic asphyxiation while wearing women's clothing. He didn't wear the costumes during the murders.

According to John Douglas the top three professions that serial killers would choose are priest, police officer, and counselor.

John Douglas is family, yes?

Well he is married with kids r256, so no, not officially at least.

[quote]Some might say but what about Aileen Wuornos, who really was a sex worker with severe PTSD.

Aileen was absolutely a serial killer, she went out looking for men to kill and enjoyed it. Lots of serial killers had a rough life, but that doesn't make them not a serial killer.

[quote] I remind them there are practically no female serial killers

Like all violent criminals, most serial killers are men, but "practically no" is a huge understatement. There have been many female serial killers in history.

Aileen's victims chose to pick up a hooker on the side of the highway. They weren't blameless.

That's not exactly a valid reason to get murdered, now is it?

r181 just to correct some understandable misconceptions, the pedo ring Corll was associated with did exist and was, indeed, investigated and broken up, but mainly because one of its "boys" (he was 24) got scared that he might become a victim of someone like Corll after Corll's death and started talking. Having done some pretty deep research on this topic for a project a few years ago, it bothers me to see the received narrative on it stray too far from the truth of what happened.

This took down a huge operation in Dallas (Corll had hinted to his accomplices more than once that he had contacts and sometimes worked with a pedo ring there) which, among many, many, many other names, brought a man named John Norman to the attention of the FBI and various local police departments. I don't remember the exact details, but he was associated with someone named Ames who was a known child pornographer in Houston, and who is believed to be the one who took the photos of the boys who would later become Corll victims. It seems that Corll was a sort of freelance, on-the-ground recruiter for Ames, who also happened to like killing the occasional boy for kicks. There are some very creepy details around this, for example, Henley (one of his accomplices) mentioning that he overheard Corll talking to an associate in Dallas and saying that they should "compare numbers" or something to the effect (as in, compare how many they'd each killed).

It needs to be noted that most of the boys Corll killed had a history of prostitution. One example, the Waldrop brothers, had been hanging around Ames and also Corll for quite a while before they disappeared, and were likely among the boys that appeared in the child porn bust a few years later. The accepted narrative portrays them as random innocents snatched on their way to the pool one day, when in fact they were both experienced in pornography and accepting money from men for sexual favours. By no means does that excuse what happened to them or make it in any way OK -- they were stupid kids from a poor family who were manipulated into believing it was all a game and also lucrative. Very few of them were truly "innocent", and all came from poor to downright impoverished families in a neighbourhood that was seeing record runaways and child delinquency at the time.

Anyway, the John Norman child porn/prostitution bust (actually, multiple busts through the 60s-80s) was huge, absolutely real, and a matter of public record. There are links to Dean Corll, who was actively engaged in recruiting and turning out underage boys too poor and ignorant to see what they were getting into. This is how they ended up in pictures seized in a child porn bust. ...cont'd

cont'd...

It gets worse.

John Norman fled to Chicago and set up shop there after things fell apart in Dallas. Again I don't remember the exact details of timeline.

But guess who he ends up associated with in Chicago?

Yup -- Gacy.

Gacy employed a guy named Phillip Paske, who was a grade A hood piece of shit who also liked to cross-dress. He's a whole other rabbit hole, the good news is, he's dead.

Paske was also a known associate of John Norman, was even in the apartment at the time Norman was arrested for his latest kiddie porn ring that he set up there. Paske is believed to have been Norman's right hand man who ran the child porn/prostitution operation while Norman was in jail.

Gacy knew Paske at around the same time.

I think Gacy was another Corll -- he served, on a sort of casual basis, as a freelance recruiter/procurer for Norman's organization, just like Corll.

Anyway this has gone on long enough. Everything I've asserted as fact can be verified. It's bloody terrifying.

One last thing to note: one two occasions, Norman was raided by local police in Dallas (maybe Houston?) and in Chicago. In both raids, large collections of coloured index cards with detailed information on his clients were seized.

And, you guessed it -- both collections of index cards have mysteriously vanished from evidence, never to be seen again. It's said there were some very prominent people listed.

Again, totally real, look it up yourselves. Just want to clear up some misconceptions, because the received, accepted narrative of what went on with Corll, Gacy and kiddie porn rings in the 70s and 80s is not just shallow but often flat-out incorrect.

Does Janathan show his lovely cock and ass in this?

Ass. Season 1.

Has he still got a nice ass?

^Definitely

R252, is that information in one of the books about BTK?

Has Jonathan talked about whether he’s a top or a bottom?

When Andy Cohen asked him if he could date a bottom Groff said no r268, the guy needs to be "verse" (AKA a top....)

Andy Cohen is an impudent cunt.

R262 Have you found out exactly which boys were in CP who also ended up being killed by Dean? You mentioned only the Waldrop brothers.

Neither Brooks nor Henley have verified if the CP stuff is real. It would make no sense if he didn't confide in them seeing as they were brutally murdering many of their own friends. That seems to be the way most of the boys were chosen, being friends with either Brooks or Henley. I did read about the index cards and yes, they had major names on them so of course they are gone.

What about the last boy killed, James Dreymala "the little blond boy"? He was taken close to Dean's Pasadena, Tx home and killed there. It seemed Dean was starting to randomly choose his victims and moving closer to Pasadena at the end, if James Dreymala was not one of the boys in CP.

The info at R252 is from Inside the Mind of BTK by John Douglas.

Thanks, R272.

r271 Dreymala was random, I think, probably the only truly random grab Corll did. He was addicted to killing by then. You see the same thing with Bonin and Gacy, they worked themselves into a frenzy which got them caught.

You can see all the original police reports (linked) yourself at https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mBaNniB9c_-7HEzy9gGawOsAFuhmxALk

Besides the Waldrops, there was one other name I saw mentioned, but I don't remember which boy it was. The info on the Waldrops is from their original missing persons reports. The name Ames came up in a handful of the original missing persons reports, I think Glass might have been one of them. He comes up again and again as an acquaintance of the boys or as someone of interest. But the Waldrops in particular were well known to be messing around with pedos like Ames. It's been a few years and I'm not in a hurry to revisit it, it was deeply saddening and affected me for a long time after.

Who can say now, but my theory is Corll was casually involved and would tip Ames off on willing boys (many of these were ignorant, naive working class kids who just thought that old men wanting to see their junk was hilarious and happened to make them some money, too), and Ames would pay them for photos/videos. Mostly solo, but one of the Corll victims was in a hardcore film with other boys. They weren't gay boys, they were just stupid, and fell in with pedos who took advantage of the lack of moral and legal coherence around the issue of pedos at the time to get their rocks off.

And then Corll would kill them in one of his fits of deeply antisocial self-hatred. Similar pattern with Gacy, I think.

R274 Thanks. Btw- the link doesn't work. I have been digging into the case since it hit its 45th anniversary. I grew up just several streets over from Dean's Pasadena home, though I was born long after. My mom actually lived in the house I grew up in at the time Dean was murdered.

Dreymala likely was his only random (except the first victim coming from UT). Dean had him all to himself as Brooks left. That is what is scary. Poor boy- Dean was likely very savage with him as he was said to be especially brutal during the time in Pasadena. Dreymala was the first body found and in one photo, you can see his open eyes.

Henley and Brooks have not been completely honest about everything if Dean was connected to a CP ring and this Ames guy. But why have or would they hide this?

The Otero murders inspired Thomas Harris to write Red Dragon. So if it were not for BTK there would be no Hannibal Lecter.

The Otero murders were horrific. That poor 11 year old daughter. And the 9 year old brother. That is very brutal for your first kills.

r275 right, DL mangles links. Just google "pasadena pd documents corll" (no quotation marks) and that should turn them up.

I think Henley and Brooks told pretty much what they knew, they didn't hide anything. Henley mentions Ames a few times in his various confessions and affadavits. Corll was very secretive, including with them. For example, in those police files, there's mention (quoting Henley) that Corll would not allow his mail to be delivered to his home, he had a secure PO box, and would pick it up there and destroy it immediately after reading. Who knows what was in his mail, but it's a pretty safe assumption at least some of it was correspondence with similar pieces of shit and probably material from Norman's operation. Henley is on record, after a few years in prison, saying something to the effect of, "I wish [the pedo ring Corll was associated with] would be investigated," something like that, on prompting froma journalist. Henley and Brooks weren't much more than drug-addled flunkies re: Corll, so who knows how reliable their sincerely held recollections are, let alone whether they're lying. I'm surprised he admitted to helping Corll kill -- Corll was dead and he could make up whatever he wanted.

There are still efforts underway to identify the last few victims. Around the time I was working on the project re: Corll, there was a new photo released that is thought to have been one of Corll's victims (search "Bobby French").

R278 He may have been secretive to a degree but why? I mean, those 2 murdered others with him. Henley, it was said, was especially brutal. I would think Dean would share a lot with them. I personally suspect Henley would rather be seen as a murdered than someone who engaged ( or knew about) in homosexual sex rings. While Henley was initially very chatty about everything, he quickly became a bit cagey. Brooks has always been a bit of an asshole about the whole thing. I don't think they have shared enough. They know more, much more.

Since the police know which boys Dean killed were in the CP photos, why not make that public? We know the Waldrop brothers and Willian Lawrence were three. It does seem like the pedo ring had a hold in the Heights area of Houston. Ames took a lot of photos and several boys had run away several times which means they could have went to spend time with a client. Also, it was mentioned that Dean could have filmed the boys either being abused or after they were dead. Pasadena Police found CP in his home and it was linked to Odyssey. Dean was absolutely connected to some people in Cali and Dallas. Henley mentioned more bodies of Dean's in NY.

Dean killed far more than 28.

Any more info you have on the case?

Dean's (dead) ass.

r279 Nothing further on hand, we saw a lot of material when I was working on that project, including a lot of photos. Some of the more eerie things we looked at were copies of a bunch of photos of random boys found in Corll's house, but not of any of his known victims. Some of them were school photos, some looked like actors' headshots. We weren't allowed to copy them, but I remember seeing some of them in a documentary about Corll. As far as I know, they haven't been explained nor the subjects identified.

I agree Corll had more victims. It's horrible they'll probably never be found or identified. The number of lives taken by freaks like Corll, could it be known, would probably be quite shocking, I have a feeling.

I suppose the 11 boys haven't been named to "spare the families more grief". That's the excuse Houston PD used to cover their ass when they were criticized for their handling of the case and their refusal to locate more victims despite good evidence to go on.

I'm curious where r280 got hold of that image, I remember seeing pictures of Corll dead, but none from that angle or at that resolution.

R281 both R279 and R280 are me. I, too, am working on research for this case. As I said, I grew up just a few streets from 2020 Lamar. I have never seen the Pasadena PD docs you sent me to so thanks! It seems like Corll actually may have been connected to a serial killer or two.

It appears he got into CP somehow and SM parties, maybe both at the same time, and it awakens the beast in him. I think he killed others with accomplices before Brooks and Henley- possibly other serial killers as mentioned in the Pasadena PD docs- but wanted to act alone or have his "fun" alone away from them. That looks to be the direction he went from 1970 until his death. Also, there is a picture of James Dreymala as he was unearthed with a huge gaping wound on his back. That has never been reported. There is so much they covered up and so much others have not researched that could lead to many more victims and resolution for many families.

Groff is a chunky boy, jiggly ass for days...

Groff had a bit of a belly but he is still gorgeous. He has nice proportions.

Expect Season 3 sometime in 2022.

This is so ridiculous. They already have most of the sets, experienced production crews, there're several directors each season and writers could already work on future storylines/scripts while they were shooting season 2. It's also mostly dialogue and no action or special effects.

10 episodes × 2 weeks = 20 weeks. Season 3 should be ready in late spring/summer next year. So even if Fincher needs extra time for his 100 takes and his quality standards, season 3 should still be ready late next year.

I hope s3 comes sooner than 2022. It’s such a good show!

Those 10 episodes flew by. We either need a season every 10-12 months or a longer season, maybe 12-13 episodes.

Did anyone know Pasadena, Texas had two back to back candy man killer? Dean Corll in 1973 and Ronald O'Bryan in 1974. That is fucked up!

Pasadena was also home to Urban Cowboy's Gilley's and Actress Sharon Tate.

Here is a story a Houston station did recently on the 1974 Candy man.

They take forever with a lot of these series. I watched the first season of Jack Ryan on Amazon Prime, and that was ages ago. They said Season 2 will come out in November 2019, but as long as it takes, it seems like they end up going through all the promotional crap to remind people it even exists.

I just binged it. Really good television. I'd always wanted to believe Wayne Williams was innocent but now I'm not so sure.

I wondered after seeing it if Williams had some kind of psychological displacement issues where he killed but then it was another personality who did that not him?

^I thought his father was shady af. Why did they (parents) agree to change the carpet? Did he/they kill the boys in their living room? Who would bring victims to their parents house? The Dad also asked about a private plane to South America according to Mindhunter.

I agree R293. I wish they would have explored Williams father and his home environment more. His neighbors seemed to hate him. Said he was always getting into shit.

Has there ever been a detailed book about Williams that got into all of those stories? I didn’t know half of the things they talked about in Mindhunter.

Yeah that's completely fucked. Both the parents were teachers.

Of all of the things they film in Atlanta, it is incredible that they filmed this in Pittsburgh.

IMO Williams is the most under-explored, documented, analyzed serial killers of all time, and that is why I think there is some type of vast cover up/ conspiracy. 30 kids and teens were murdered in Atlanta for a 2 year period, yet most ppl never even heard of Williams. He is one of the most prolific serial killers of all timer. He should be, but isn't. I don't think he murdered all those kids, or most of them. I think he started to murder young people, once the case got traction and media coverage.

For years, the victims' families were convinced the KKK was involved, and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation was really anxious about that. And as one of the mothers in the show pointed out, a lot of the cops were former KKK members. Meanwhile Atlanta was poised to become "the new South" and leave all that sad racist history behind. So it was a very politically sensitive time. And there was a valid point made by Mindhunters. Those kids were probably very suspicious of white men. So whoever was picking them up had to be Black. But I'm inclined to believe that Williams was not the only murderer and maybe there was Klan involvement. Because if you're a poor Black kid and you're hustling to make a dollar and some white guy offers you money to do some work for him, etc. maybe you do get in that car.

[bold]Bridgeville, Oakdale men among 3 charged with animal cruelty charges during ‘Manhunt’ shoot[/bold] 😟

[quote]According to court papers, Spencer subcontracted Wiernik and Hoelcher as dog trainers for the filming of a scene for the American true-crime miniseries near Rosecrest Drive in Monroeville. Spencer and Wiernik “put (cayenne pepper) into the dogs’ noses several times,” and Hoelcher provided them with it, police said.

[quote]A member of the crew notified Animal Friends about the incident and provided videos that allegedly showed the trainers using cayenne pepper on the dogs. The crew member said the use of cayenne pepper on dogs is not common practice. The police officer who filed the complaint said he viewed an official video provided by Lionsgate, parent production company of “Manhunt.”

But they wouldn't have been suspicious of white people at all. You can rag on Atlanta all you want, but it's pretty mixed racially when it comes to life. Especially if the people were offering a ride or day labor (even if it was sex work) they'd hop right in the car. Even after some killings started if they were hungry. Like they pointed out, it's not Baltimore. Blacks and whites regularly lived, worked and shopped side by side.

Oh my god, I just realised I fucked up the show. This is the Mindhunter, not the Manhunt thread. 😱

Well, shit.

R301, that's partly what I meant to say in R299. These kids were hustling to make a dollar. And while the races didn't mix nearly as much back then as they do today, the whole concept of day laborers was as big then as it is now, if not bigger. Picking up workers to help with agricultural jobs, or odd jobs, etc. was normala Black kid would not be afraid to hop into a white man's car to get work. There were and are certain places day laborers hung out, especially in Mall parking lots. I found it interesting that with all the killings mounting up, the GBI and the APD had not gone into the neighborhoods and interviewed the neighbors. And that until the Black FBI guy discovered it, apparently no one connected dots to discover that so many of those boys knew one another. The way the Atlanta Child murders ended was effective too, because it was not a neatly tied up case. The loose ends,especially the child porn angle with the "house near the stadium" was never fully investigated and the cryptic comment the Black FBI guy made, that someone in local law enforcement had to have known about it was chilling. I believe Williams was guilty, but I also believe he wasn't the only killer out there. passing out flyers telling kids they could be the next Michael Jackson was a very clever gimmick.

More than just the "murder guy," Jonathan Groff is finally having fun:

I want Tench inside me quite deeply. I bet he's horsehung too.

So Groff is part of a new off-Broadway show starting in October and also has a new Disney movie lined up. When will they start filming season 3? Guess we can expect the new season 2025 on Netflix with that schedule. Thank God none of the actors are teenagers like the Stanger Things kids.

Groff might be husband material. If he can keep the weight off, he is going to age really good.

Tench is a G.

Was Holt the last white actor to play an Indian?

Finished binge watching both seasons. Really great show, especially Season 2.

Groff looks great in this but the hottest guy on the show, IMO, is Albert Jones as Agent Jim Frank. Nice body and sexy voice!

Groff gained a dad bod in season 2 and his usual sex appeal was lost :( Fortunatley he lost all that fat now, hopefully he look as sexy as he was in Season1 in the coming season

another pic

His ass is stupendous.

He does not have a dad bod. Holt has a dad bod and is still sexy as hell.

Still no word on season 3?

R315 Nope, no word on a renewal but I don't think we’ll hear anything until after Fincher finishes the movie he’s currently doing.

I tell you, we'll be lucky if we see Season 3 before 2024.

2024? Brian Tench will be old enough for his first kill!

"Mindhunter" Cast Released From Contracts as Season 3 Is Put on Indefinite Hold at Netflix:

I love Jonathan Groff, but it is weird to see him play straight. He does the best he can.

r319 NOOOOOOOO! FUCK!

This sucks. Why cant they find a new showrunner if Fincher is too busy with other projects? Fincher is an asshole. He lost interest and the viewers and actors who committed to this series are now fucked. I doubt we'll ever get a third season when all the actors were released from their contracts and work on new projects.

Fucking Netflix. They renew shitty series and kill good ones. The fucking Witcher series made zero sense.

Are you illiterate r323? They very clearly explain this is soley due to Fincher who wants to do other projects first, and Netflix is very eager for him to return to the series.

Perhaps it's just me, but while I absolutely LOVE the series (and am devastated with season 3 being put on indefinite hold), I didn't warm to the book at all. I think there are a few reasons.

1. That we're now 25 years on and have been inundated with this kind of thing, so it doesn't seem so revelatory any more;

2. Douglas clearly cherry picks his successes, and when it came to his predictions for things that were unknown at the time but are known now, he was everything from not quite right to really really wrong. The identity of Wearside Jack being a good example. He says he will be a police officer, and then lies that the police arrested someone who was a police officer as Wearside Jack by the time this book was published in 1995. John Humble wasn't a police officer and he wasn't arrested until 2005; and

3. Probably the strongest reason for me disliking this book - John Douglas is an arrogant, narcissistic arsehole. It was painful having to read him big noting himself over and over again. First about his looks. Then he brags about how once he knew he would likely be drafted for Vietnam, he chose to join the air force, because he knew only the higher-ups in the air force went to Vietnam and he didn't want to go himself. Joins the air force, and dicks around in some sporting club he invented that no one asked him to do, patting himself with getting away with doing no work for so long, until he's found out. This I don't necessarily care about, but then, when he joins the FBI, the first job he's given is to track down guys who have gone AWOL, who he refers to as "lowlifes". That said a lot about his character, that he thinks the men who actually went to Vietnam and experienced all the horrors of that and didn't want to go back were "lowlifes", considering his motives for joining the air force were hardly virtuous.

Then there's the awful scene where he finds out one of the actors on "Silence of the Lambs" is against the death penalty, so he makes him listen to snuff recordings of a killer torturing his victims and then is all satisfied when afterwards the actor changes his mind because of that. It really made me feel like there was a very thin line between the psychopaths he was catching, and himself. He also has a VERY thin skin.

I just watched season 2.it was fantastic. great pacing, really grabbed me. I almost didn't watch it because season 1 was just fine, nothing really great. I am going to have to rewatch season 1 now. I keep going down google holes to refresh my memory about the featured killers.

I fimd it interesting that a show about the fucked up relationships people have with each other and how they can go terribly wrong has such a difficult time writing relationships with its main characters and casting good actors for them.