How AA marginalized a transwoman

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AA is a self-help program. It’s not organized under a leader — it comprises everyday people. Who are drunks.

AA can’t be transphobic any more than the Constitution can. It’s completely neutral about the physical body. It’s totally about one’s own thinking.

This dude is projecting. He’s an alcoholic who was “funneled” into AA, not because he chose AA. He’s welcome to find a better way for him to get sober.

Is that you?

Of course they marginalize minorities. AA is the embodiment of a cult that only exists in an "Us vs. Them" universe.

[quote] “I was typically the only trans person in the room.”

Gee, that must be an unsettling oddity for the author.

/s

This is so tedious. It’s look for the similarities. The cunt in the article is so self obsessed because it thinks it should be written for it specifically.

She deserves it.

[QUOTE] AA is a self-help program. It’s not organized under a leader — it comprises everyday people. Who are drunks.

Nice way for the program to dodge responsibility.

Yeah, r8. The program should know better!

Oh, boo the fuck hoo. Don't go, bitch.

[quote]I was typically the only trans person in the room.

Yeah, because you're not online. That's going to happen 99.9999999999% of the time you're located in any room.

There’s nobody to sue or get fired. Their suggested donation is $1. Poor transwoman is out $3.

His name is Princess. LOL. Why can't these trannies ever pick normal names? Everything is for show with them. Look at me, me, ME!

An essay on "Medium.com"! Why, those are so rigorously edited and fact-checked that you know everything this transwoman says must be true!

Thanks for giving us this hard hitting and completely objective piece to read, OP! Datalounge loves hearing transwomen's complaints, since there are so few of them and they are always so rreasonable.

[bold]LITERAL VIOLENCE!![/bold]

I have nothing but contempt for a man who replicates the worst socially-dictated stereotypes to pose as a woman.

R14, yes, especially since he was directed to AA from a [bold]mental hospital[/bold]. 😲😲😲

R2 points out how it works.

As an organization, AA is not transphobic. But because it is made up of "it comprises everyday people. Who are drunks" the practice of the program is going to incorporate the biases of the community in which it finds itself. Because the program is decentralized, there is no one to complain to about bigoted behavior.

If you are a trans, queer, black, latino, etc. person in a community that is accepting, than most likely you can find an AA group that will be supportive. But if the larger community is not accepting, then AA probably will not be accepting either. So you will probably need to find recovery elsewhere.

Start a Trans AA group, princess.

Picturing a tranny AA group would be hilarious.

All these drunk straight men, dressed up like whores, competing for attention.

The trans starts off entitled and delusional when it walks into a meeting and demands the audience greet her warmly as “Princess”.

Coddling the stoned, mentally ill and delusional is not what AA does. We aren’t an audience for your fuckery. The trans is unhappy and thinks we should ALLLLL suffer. Fuck him. I’m sure this asshole went to a female group as well on their trolling spree. Women have said this happens now. They are there whining about their lesbian relationships and how they are with abusive women. It sounds surreal.

R19, they will have a group just for them and they have not gone to those meetings. It’s my experience that they demand to be in the least likely group for meetings.

Reality slapped that AfroLatinx tranny right in its face.

Op, i just couldn't even finish reading when she said she was advised to pray her Gender dyphoria away. I just don't believe it. I went to a NA meeting in Venice when I first moved to California (Alcohol was my issue, but only meeting going on at the time). The first person who was welcoming was a transwoman. She spoke and was well received by the group as being a main part of it. Unless this trans woman is in backwater Alabama then I think she would have more options than the meeting she was at.

And just common sense, don't be trans in backwater Alabama. If you have money to start transitioning then get the fuck out and to a big city.

There is nothing disturbing about that issue

Welfare pays for the tranny surgery. ...

Oh lordy, the navel gazing on this tranny! And she entered AA with multiple addictions and mental illness. And its FUCKING FREE!

[quote]I was first introduced to AA when I was at a mental hospital

A tranny in a mental hospital? Utterly shocking!

“bootstraps approach that I’ve never been comfortable with“

The major reason they should have left after the first meeting.

Poor thing is suffering from PMS: poor me syndrome.

Any pictures of “Princess”??

[quote]“bootstraps approach that I’ve never been comfortable with“

So Tranny Princess doesn't want to take any responsibility for helping himself. That's really what he's saying here. His problems are everyone else's to solve. He really is in the wrong place if he thinks AA is like taking a pill that will magically make you sober---no effort required.

I love that they told him to stop taking hormones.

She is NOT Tranny Princess She is Princess Tranny

That person is a HUGE mess. No wonder they are and were an addict. What sort of moron doesn't know or understand the christian underpinnings and theology of AA?

[quote]To produce a spiritual conversion necessary for sobriety and sanity, alcoholics needed to realize that they couldn't conquer alcoholism by themselves—that surrendering to a higher power and working with another alcoholic were required. Sober alcoholics could show drinking alcoholics that it was possible to enjoy life without alcohol, thus inspiring a spiritual conversion that would help ensure sobriety.

You don't go to Westboro and expect them to open their arms to gays and lesbians.

At my AA mtg for women only, I said hello to 2 cute young lesbians saying how nice it was to see "sisters" showing affection openly. (They were smooching and dancing in the front yard of the Alano Club in St. Augustine) They separated and then corrected me saying, 'We're not lesbians. We're transmen". They followed me into the clubhouse and I pointed out that the AA meeting was for women only. Their mouths hung open when I explained they couldn't have it both ways. They came to the meeting anyway, and "made out" throughout the entire meeting. No one noticed they were actually 2 gay men.

I’m confused by R36’s story.

Because it faux, r37

Every couple made of two gay men who turn into two lesbians, one of them ends up becoming a man again. Or maybe it's the other way around. Every lesbian couple who turn into a gay couple, one of them goes back to being a woman.

This thread was started by a tranny and most of the thread is that same loser tranny

I believe harMONEY🇵🇷samiruhh's story. I believe that they were taken advantage of by AA.

AA was designed by and for straight white male Christians. If you're not in this group you're chances are less than average.

AA has a term for such people....

"TERMINALLY UNIQUE"!

I've been in AA for over thirty years and I'd say EVERY trans person I know, I know from AA, and NONE of them has ever had these complaints! Complaining about AA (which is free and voluntary) is like a hungry person complaining about free food.....so DON'T EAT IT, PRINCESS!

The I hate AA troll and you should too.....is back

Tranny's deserve nothing. A tranny started this thread.

Caitlyn update.

[quote]But the program’s ideology was in many ways irrelevant to me. The literature of AA and NA preaches a heteronormative approach to sexuality — unavoidable, perhaps, as both programs were founded by heterosexual men at a time when queer people were repressed.

Closed the tab after that.

[QUOTE] Complaining about AA (which is free and voluntary) is like a hungry person complaining about free food.....

Except that the free food is rotten in this case. So we warn everyone we can.

AA is 89% white (i.e. Caucasian).

[quote]But the program’s ideology was in many ways irrelevant to me. The literature of AA and NA preaches a heteronormative approach to sexuality — unavoidable, perhaps, as both programs were founded by heterosexual men at a time when queer people were repressed.

But, since it's all about me, I DEMAND that the entire program change its ideology and everything it stands for to accommodate ME ME ME ME ME ME MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Everything in the world was put here to be about MEEEEEEE.

No one else exists, but ME.

If something isn't designed specifically for ME, the it should change to so that I can be ME.

R48, the writer doesn’t want to eat his vegetables. He prefers junk food. When he’s ready to get healthy — and not mandated by a mental hospital — then he can GET SOBER with AA.

AA is simply a method for helping alcoholics not drink themselves to death. If it doesn’t work for Princess, so be it. Nobody can force him to quit drinking.

AA only works for 5% of those who try it. They call them the elite in the program.

Link please, 52

Here:

[quote]But the program’s ideology was in many ways irrelevant to me. The literature of AA and NA preaches a heteronormative approach to sexuality

AA isn’t about sexuality. Not everyone spends every minute of every day thinking about your shenis, Princess.

From the article:

"If you actually hang around between the meetings and sit at the tables a lot of racist shit gets said. I've been to meetings in Long Beach and Houston, and in both places I've heard people say things that would turn off African American members. Everything from dropping the N-bomb, to complaining about Mexicans or "thugs" or Black Lives Matter... For some reason people love to sit around with that coffee, smoking cigarettes on their political soap box about going off on whatever group they think is destroying the country. And usually it's a group of non-white people."

This says a lot.

From r54:

[quote]Although AA does not keep membership records—the idea being pretty antithetical to the whole “anonymity” thing—the organization estimates that as of January 2013, more than 1 million Americans regularly attended meetings with one of roughly 60,000 groups.

If it’s anonymous, how do they know it only “works for 5% who try it”.

I’m not in AA, but I know DOZENS of people off the top of my head for whom AA “works.” Since I’m gay, the vast majority of my friends in AA are also gay.

It’s fine if you don’t like AA because of “religious” reasons, but it’s irresponsible to cast it as not being a resource available for the gay community. It has saved many gay lives. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

[QUOTE] I’m not in AA, but I know DOZENS of people off the top of my head for whom AA “works.”

Gee, that doesn't sound anecdotal at all.

It’s an anonymous program, r58. Duh.

R56, I do not see that text in r54’s article.

I read the article. And R56 is making shit up.

R60 it's in the comments.

[QUOTE] It’s an anonymous program, [R58]. Duh.

So don't make the claim that it saves gay lives, because you have no hard proof of that. In fact you're just repeating slogans you heard in the rooms.

So it’s not in the article like r56 says.

The comment was from someone who went to The Rooms. Why is their experience less valid than someone who claims it "helps millions" with no proof.

R62, I’m an eye witness that is has saved dozens of gay lives. You can’t get better proof than that.

And I’m not disingenuous or “truthy” like r56. My only agenda here is supporting my community — fellow homosexuals.

R56 is anecdotal. Says a lot.

Right after the AfroLatinx Tranny’s anti-AA article, the next suggested article is “White People: I Want You to Understand Yourselves Better.”

This says a lot.

So we have no proof of whether AA works or not. Since it can't be measured. At all.

R57, part of the problem is how do you define "success" and how do you define "being in AA."

At least half or 3/4 of the people in any meeting will tell you that they relapsed at some point at least once. Success or failure?

Some people come to AA and after a month or two realize it is not for them and leave. Were they part of the program?

The estimate of between 5% and 30% sounds about right. But that is a pretty big range, because it is hard to pin down what and who are being measured.

I can understand why a trans or marginalized person would not deal well in AA. These people need to be empowered, and the whole purpose of AA is to crush individuality and keep members weak and dependent.

If I went to AA and didn’t think it was helping me, I wouldn’t go back.

I wouldn’t write an article claiming I was “marginalized”.

^^Also, a good number of people in AA are in therapy or have been. Some go on to anti-depressants, high-blood pressure medication, etc.

Going to AA is often (or usually) accompanied by making many positive changes. So how much is AA and how much is not?

This is very hard to measure.

[QUOTE] Going to AA is often (or usually) accompanied by making many positive changes.

By hiding out in Rooms and believing in spirit woo from an old Book?

R68, talk to AA members. Have a conversation with them. Listen to what they say.

R69, there is no cure for alcoholism. AA is simply a way to reprieve the addiction. Very few people take to it the very first visit...or even first year. It depends on the person. But AA is always there for them.

And people who are ordered to go into AA rarely grasp it. It takes their own free will to decide they want to stop drinking.

R74 swallowed the kool-aide.

It’s better than hiding out in Bars & drinking hard spirits that destroy your organs including your brain.

[quote]I can understand why a trans or marginalized person would not deal well in AA. These people need to be empowered, and the whole purpose of AA is to crush individuality and keep members weak and dependent.

It’s not AA’s job to “empower” mentally ill trannies.

And the Tranny in question was already weak and dependent on alcohol and drugs.

[QUOTE] It’s better than hiding out in Bars & drinking hard spirits that destroy your organs including your brain.

Binary thinking. You need to become more non-binary.

R75 rather swallow the Kool Aid then swallow the Szzurp!

My point R77 is that AA's job is to crush everyone into the mold of the old Bill Wilson book. That's not going to work for 95% of people out there.

[quote] And just common sense, don't be trans in backwater Alabama. If you have money to start transitioning then get the fuck out and to a big city.

Exactly the kind of provincial stupidity I expect from someone who thinks what happened to him personally in his local NA is indicative of what happens in AAs all across the country.

Logic isn't your strong suit, r24.

Actually, r75, AA saved my dad’s life. He was an abusive alcoholic when I was a kid. In high school, he tried AA. I was very skeptical. For about 15 years I was skeptical. But then I crashed & burned, and my dad literally saved my life. I don’t drink, but I did learn the 12 steps. I see nothing controversial about them...it’s just a list of truisms that help me navigate my life in a constructive way.

But nobody will know of my personal success. It’s not documented anywhere. And I never have been in the program. It’s likely I never will.

It truly was a cool thing to see my dad turn his life around. If he could do it, anyone can do it. Including me. I can always turn my life around. I don’t have to be stuck in unhappiness.

Why doesn't AA try to root out the toxicity of it's many meetings, instead of blaming the newcomer and ordering them to try a different meeting after they were racially insulted.

R74, to get an accurate picture you also have to talk to people who gave up on AA. You cannot just talk to one side of the equation.

The program helps a lot of people and it hurts a lot of people. It is like a lot of treatments--chemotherapy and anti-depressants can either cure you or make things worse with their side effects. AA is kind of the same.

Most AA members come from severe abuse. The AA home group becomes a sick, substitute family that reproduces the original family.

R83, AA is completely decentralized. And there are thousands of meetings. How would they "root out" toxicity?

It is fucked up that newcomers are supposed to be able to evaluate a meeting and decide to search for new ones. But it is really baked in.

R84, I know many people who no longer attend meetings regularly. But they all have expressed gratitude for AA, because they simply could not have stopped drinking without it.

It works for some people. It works for some people in the gay community. If you don’t like it, fine. But please stop trying to dismiss it as something gays should avoid.

AA is big on sharing experiences; so sexuality dimensions become a topic within some groups. The problem with this, is that discussion facilitators and program participants are not composed of trained psychologists and therapists, and all have their own baggage and troubling lifestyles. AA can be helpful to many participants if their commitments are strong and they sustain a willingness to overcome set-backs. Such groups come with their mixtures of prejudices, attitudes, values, goals, intellect, vocational success, and educational achievements. Someone not matching a particular norm, may expect to encounter misunderstandings, being ostracized by some participants, and leaving feeling frustrated.

[QUOTE] It is fucked up that newcomers are supposed to be able to evaluate a meeting and decide to search for new ones. But it is really baked in.

So it's better not to send people there at all, probably. And AA is not evidence-based treatment. In fact it's not treatment at all.

R87, that is really a leap. Because I suggest looking a larger group of people than one's own personal friends, that is somehow saying that I am saying gays should not go?

I better stop writing or you will claim that the above paragraph is a threat to kill Queen Elizabeth and an announcement that I am moving to Antarctica.

R88, where did you get the idea that logic, good sense, and clear writing have any place in a DL AA thread?

My apologies, r90, I meant no offense. My comment perhaps was intended for the general tone of this debate, not something personal against you.

I’m just trying to convey my personal experience. Make of it what you will. But I have personally seen AA helps lots of people — most of them gay. And of all races.

Alcoholism isn’t even a real disease.

Just don’t drink.

R89...talk about a leap.

R93, and transgenderism isn’t even real.

It’s impossible to change sex.

R91 appreciate the critique.

R92, while I am happy for your personal experience, there is no need to negate the experience of others.

There is a bigger picture. AA helps a lot of people. And it does not help a lot of people.

For some it is a positive experience. For others it is a negative one.

Noting that there is a range of efficacy and experience should not be seen as a disparagement of your experience.

It does not need to be one thing or another. I can enjoy ice cream even knowing that there are people who would get violently ill if they ate it. It is good for me, and bad for them. And I do not have to deny lactose intolerance or that some people dislike the taste of ice cream. I can find it enjoyable and comforting even while others do not.

Princess must be a DL trans cause she said she was harassed the times she turned down the men hitting on her. Implying she didn’t always turn them down.

I bet she is 50+ but is always mistaken for 23.

We're fine with AA existing. It just shouldn't ever be recommended by doctors, media, or anyone else. Let it sink or swim on it's own.

Trans are not the problem. Twelve step cults are the problem.

I agree R93. Alcoholic is just another AA word.

[quote]Trans are not the problem. Twelve step cults are the problem.

Trans cults are a bigger problem.

There are no trans cults. It's too tiny of a group to produce a cult.

R100: Trans=cult. That's a fact.

R103: Not when you have corrupt corporate money on your side.

[quote]there is no need to negate the experience of others.

which is exactly what the Atlantic article at r54 does.

[quote] R70: These people need to be empowered, and the whole purpose of AA is to crush individuality and keep members weak and dependent.

This is a classic anti-AATroll post. Her criticism of AA is often referenced as a “given” fact in support of another assertion. Here, she wants us to be arguing about whether or not these people need empowerment, and neglect to notice that she’s completely making up the parts about AA “crushing individuality” and “keeping members weak and dependent”. It’s passive aggressive, dishonest, and disgusting.

The OP of this thread should be ff’d.

What the troll who asserts that AA has a 5% success rate is missing, besides compassion, is that the people who seek help from AA are often the people who couldn’t quit any other way. They are the hardest cases, and have already failed at “the easier, softer ways” of quitting or moderating their drinking. So, whether it’s 5% or 30% or 80% or whatever, neglects to account for that and skews the results to look worse than they really are.

Plus, that troll is chronically dishonest and shouldn’t be trusted as evidenced by their own history.

[quote] R93: Alcoholism isn’t even a real disease.

How are you defining this word, “disease”?

The AMA refers to alcoholism as a disease. What are your credentials?

Life, baby!

Thems my credentials!

Broadway don’t go for no AMA!

What we have here is a man who's chosen to live as a woman then complains when she's treated like one - stalked, sexually harassed, demeaned. A guy who had male privilege inculcated into him while he grew up, and is now pissed off because he enjoys dressing like a female, but objects to being treated like one.

'Princess' obviously has a long way to go in terms of internalizing what being a woman actually is. 'Cause guess what, sweetie princess pie - receiving and dealing with this kind of bullshit is a much more integral part of the female experience than is putting on makeup and skirts.

If you really want to live as a woman, consider your sexist AA encounters a learning experience. Because women receive tons more unwanted/negative attention than wanted attention. When you're a woman, everyone gets to judge you and tell you what you're doing wrong. Don't like it? Whatever made you imagine that if you lived as a woman you could enjoy only the good stuff and avoid all the bad stuff? Life never works like that for anybody.

But Caitlyn said I would be considered stunning and brave r111

They're an afro-latin who was raised in the projects. Some of you are acting like this is a person who is a pampered snowflake. No. This is as real as it gets.

R113: AA doesn’t care about victimhood, because victim mentality is at the root of alcoholism.

Do you think AA adjusts to make, say, alcoholic brain surgeons to feel more comfortable?

No. It doesn’t care if one is a medical doctor or...whatever Princess does to make a living. AA doesn’t coddle anyone.

It’s the one organization the Ts can’t bring down. The Ts can’t put AA out of business, there’s no twitter account to brigade, it can’t get members fired...they can’t create a job for T liaison.

And, r113, remember: this person is a man. It’s a man’s world. Even he has more privilege than Afro-Latin lesbian.

[QUOTE] AA doesn’t coddle anyone.

That's what I said before. The purpose of AA is to break people down and make them program-dependent forever.

Is DL's resident "pro-trans" troll here yet, telling us how gay men MUST support Princess, a self described "latinx trans woman," who was ordered to attend AA after a stay in the mental hospital (from the article). It is IMPORTANT, the DL "pro trans" troll says, that gay men and women support the struggles of trans women in our "community," and I'm sure xhe thinks anyone who doesn't support Princess is an anti-trans troll bigot.

I want to get off this ride.

The purpose of AA is to help people stop drinking.

Calculate the number of people who die from or by alcoholism and compare that to people who stick to the program.

For some, the choices are grim: death, hospital, jail or AA.

Alcoholism is a “progressive” disease...the more one drinks, the more they need to drink. These poor bastards are chasing their first high...which can never be achieved again.

It’s kind of like a deal with the devil. It’s stacked against you in the long run.

Maybe the reason booze is called “spirits” is because it is a spiritual disease. People who hate spirituality, as is the trend these days, will hate AA.

In my experience, egomaniacs have the hardest time with spirituality. They can’t accept a “higher power” - a form of intelligence that they can’t comprehend yet is smarter than them. That wrecks their egos, & they can’t handle it.

R108, I think that 5% is better than nothing. But I think what skews the data is that AA is usually the FIRST way people try to stop drinking. If it does not work for them, they move on to therapy, or a method like SMART-recovery etc, then rehab.

AA is often where people first learn of other forms of addiction treatment. I am never really sure what 5% or 30% is supposed to be measuring, but if you figure in all the people who first hear about a particular shrink, or Life Ring, or learn what rehab is about at AA meetings that does nudge the percentage a little higher

R117 is a pure bot. Total propaganda.

I don't think AA should be anyone's first exposure to anything. It's not evidence-based.

"Maybe the reason booze is called “spirits” is because it is a spiritual disease. People who hate spirituality, as is the trend these days, will hate AA. "

A simple google search would tell you this not the reason.

Well spirituality is a meaningless term.

[QUOTE] I think that 5% is better than nothing.

It's the same rate as those who quit on their own. So no it's not better than nothing.

Explains how it’s not better than nothing, r123.

R124 because there's no effect when you go to AA. Your chances of staying sober are still 5% in or out of the program. That means sitting at those meetings is a waste of time. Unless your there for the gossip and drama?

There may be some overlap, but five percent who can quit on their own and the five percent who quit with AA are not likely to be the exact same people.

The tranny was misgendered multiple times.

Boo Fucking Hoo.

[QUOTE] There may be some overlap, but five percent who can quit on their own and the five percent who quit with AA are not likely to be the exact same people.

That sounds anecdotal.

R128, the OP’s article is ANECDOTAL.

The five percent statistic is anecdotal. That is how it is when you study AA.

Then all claims by pro- AAs that it helps millions are baseless.

All numerical claims about AA members are baseless. Which is not to say they are untrue---rather they are not provable.

And the people who originating claims made them based on feeling rather than data.

[QUOTE] And the people who originating claims made them based on feeling rather than data.

I agree. It's clear that Steppers use emotional reasoning rather than logic.

Problem loading thread.

Gender is baseless.

It’s impossible to switch the sex organs from male to female. This man needs to focus on his drinking & drug problems.

[quote] R115: That's what I said before. The purpose of AA is to break people down and make them program-dependent forever.

Anti-AA troll Making discussion of AA useless by spewing more nonsense.

It’s well known that AA shot JFK in a dispute of use of CAPITAL LETTERS.

Anti-AA troll here, and no R115 is not one of mine.

I do think AA encourages dependence on the sponsor. But I am not sure what "program dependent" would even look like. Given that most people leave before they hit the 5 year mark, I would say that the program does not make people dependent forever.

AA has a convention every 5 years that attracts about 50,000 people. It estimated about 2 million members in 2010. Anyone who thinks it hasn’t helped millions of people is being willfully and stubbornly ignorant.

People develop a "program personality" over time, when heavily involved with AA. People who once seemed like individuals with opinions become eerily similar.

R14, are you talking about the Rotary Club? It sounds like Rotarians. Or Knights of Columbus. Or the SAR. Or Yankees fans, or any group group of humans that has ever formed since the dawn of time.

Has anyone added that drunk or sober "there's no such thing as a "trans-woman" yet?

Bump.

This is the same dude who claimed he was attacked in a woman’s restroom:

Maybe AA does other things of value than just prevent drinking. Perhaps alcoholics in AA go on and off the wagon a few times but overall AA limits the harm, provides a community and some mental health support just by being around people with similar challenges. I can provide weekly structure, too, no? A sense of not being all alone. Those things are important, even for someone who is going to drink till they die.

I left AA after I ate a salad with wine dressing on it and my sponcer wanted me to restart my time because of it.

R146, you had one dumb sponsor.

Aren't they all dumb though?

r146 Was it [italic]wine[/italic] wine or salad dressing made with red wine vinegar? And what is a "sponcer," dear?

And was it really a salad, or was it a glass of wine with a parsley leaf on top?

R146, wow, you really showed him!

R146/r147: I left AA after I ate a salad with wine dressing on it and my sponcer wanted me to restart my time because of it.

Unless you used a whole bottle of wing in your salad?

R146 was in SA, Salads Anonymous.