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Ex married gay/bi men that were married to women.

So there are two guy's I know in my area, who were married to women. One for over 20 years, the other for nearly 10 years. Both raised Catholic. They've both partially been out as gay for less than 10 years. Anyway, both of them still talk about their ex wives pretty regularly. I don't care to listen to them etc, but, one still wears his wedding ring, and the other has kids and still confides in his ex wife, but then tells me how she breaks his trust and is cruel. I've told them both that they need to stop communicating with their ex wives anymore than necessary, especially because they are the ones who make out like they still love them, but also hate them. It's weird.

Sometimes I think they are bisexual because one time I asked how they both were able to have sex for so long with their ex wives, and both of them said it was easy. Are they lying? Also, these two guys were sexual with each other in the past when one of them was still married, and since then they both hate each other. Neither will tell their side of the story when I've asked. Which is also weird. Any of you have similar stories or experiences? Also, this isn't a trolling post. This is real, and this isn't to shit stir anything.

by Anonymousreply 49July 18, 2019 8:55 PM

[quote]So there are two guy's I know

Two guy’s WHAT you know?

by Anonymousreply 1July 3, 2019 5:18 PM

R1: Seriously.

by Anonymousreply 2July 3, 2019 5:19 PM

What business is it of yours OP ? You sound like a teenage gossip queen.

by Anonymousreply 3July 3, 2019 5:20 PM

R3: I'm allowed to ask. I have supported them and helped them with a lot. I'm not a gossip anything. I'm communicative, and they ask me anything and I answer them. Are you similar to them are you?

by Anonymousreply 4July 3, 2019 5:26 PM

My dad's current boss was married and had and raised children with his ex wife, and is now divorced and re-married to a man.

My dad has said he doesn't get how a man can be in a straight relationship, have sex, have kids, raise kids, and then "all of a sudden" decide that they're gay and run off to marry a man. I don't know the guy so I don't have an opinion on it, but your story reminds me of that situation.

by Anonymousreply 5July 3, 2019 5:27 PM

Well, prior to the 1980s, women were often so beautiful and well made up that they could lure a homosexual over the line into a heterosexual affair. Some went so far as to marry!

by Anonymousreply 6July 3, 2019 5:32 PM

R5: Thank you for sharing that. Yes I don't understand it either.

by Anonymousreply 7July 3, 2019 5:33 PM

I know DL does not look kindly on this point of view, but I have come to believe that there are some men (and certainly plenty of women) who can have sexual, intimate relationships with same or opposite sex.

I agree with the DL consensus that men tend to be more fixed than fluid but I think that is more cultural than psycho-bio based. Remember the prohibition of something exists at the intensity needed to modify behavior.

If same sex attraction, love etc, were not to some degree a natural impulse, then there wouldn't be a need to codemn it.

I think the reaction against this thinking is, understandable because any perception that gay is a choice is used to oppress gay people but that doesn't mean that a person can't experience a variety of sexual impulses and desires and those might change as one ages

by Anonymousreply 8July 3, 2019 5:39 PM

R8: But you are describing male bisexuality, not male homosexuality. I don't deny that bisexual men exist. I've told them that I do think they are both bisexual, but they get defensive about it, even though they exhibit signs of it when they talk to me regularly about their ex wives. I never made them feel bad for it. I thought it would help acknowledging that they are bisexual. But then if I ask questions from the perspective of a gay man, they close down with that too.

by Anonymousreply 9July 3, 2019 5:50 PM

R10 Calling themselves gay may be a way they both justify leaving their wives, even though you say they both seem genuinely bisexual. It's a way to deflect pressure to stay in a unwanted straight relationship.

by Anonymousreply 10July 3, 2019 5:58 PM

People who have lived long enough have a healthy aversion to labels.

by Anonymousreply 11July 3, 2019 6:02 PM

R11: And that to me screams internalised homophobia, shame, dissociative identity disorder, and lacking a strong sense of self overall. How is a scientific sexual orientation a label. By that logic, being a male or female is a label.

by Anonymousreply 12July 3, 2019 6:12 PM

R6: So that's how gay conversion therapy started?

by Anonymousreply 13July 3, 2019 6:16 PM

[quote]But you are describing male bisexuality, not male homosexuality.

A bisexual is a type of homosexual.

R6, I don’t know about “conversion.” In the vast majority of these cases, the supposed “conversion,” didn’t take, if it could be called that to begin with.

by Anonymousreply 14July 3, 2019 6:21 PM

Some people fall into the trap of doing what's expected of them (marry, spit out 2.5 kids, etc) for whatever reason, and denying themselves the truth of who they are. It's not that difficult to put up with someone because you have to (how many of us have stayed in long-dead relationships for years?) especially when you've committed to raising children together. For the most part, these guys always knew they were gay and didn't want to accept it or "live the lifestyle."

by Anonymousreply 15July 3, 2019 6:26 PM

R14: I disagree that a bisexual is a type of homosexual. The definitions and orientations are distinct for obvious reasons.

Yes I know gay conversion doesn't work. But you said, attractive women before the 1980's could lure a homosexual man. Gay conversion therapy was comprised of using similar tactics, wasn't it? So, could attractive men before the 1980's also lure heterosexual men?

by Anonymousreply 16July 3, 2019 6:32 PM

Talked about this in other thread (the survey one).

In my experiences its what R15 said.

Sometimes they build their own cage though, like that breeding and raising a child/ren is the absolute goal of life. They can be something like evolutionary purists, even if not in name. Like you're not worth shit really if you can't create a line that may last centuries past you (even if that line won't know or care to remember shit about you eventually).

I don't like it, at least as extreme as it can get, treating women as just tools they feel affection for. Sometimes there's a sociopathic element, because really, many other men could feel such guilt about what trouble they're putting other women into that they'd stop themselves early.

Some are absolutely IN LOVE with... the IDEA of being partnered with a woman. Remember we are submerged in idealization of the married condition, no matter what divorce/troubled marriage/etc stories we may also absorb. A happy marriage with the opposite sex is assumed as some pinnacle of personal success, even if (like childbirth, like a job promotion, like house ownership) its actually pretty plain and if you don't have it, its not like these are truly the only measures. But anyway, its love with an idea, so chances are that the actual relationship at at minimum strained in private.

In terms of having the sexy times? Like porn, much is simply performance. There's a lot of people, male and female, that can go so far as to totally fake any interest in sex, for hours, including orgasm. Its a thing we can do. If we think there's either a reward or relief coming out of it, many of us will do that faking. I kinda hate this, but its true. To closeted gay men having sex with their wives, its just part of the 'job'. Until they get what they wanted out of it and see better elsewhere. No one said gay men were saints, even if we're sometimes accused of being magical.

by Anonymousreply 17July 3, 2019 6:37 PM

R15: Yes good points. I think there needs to be a difference made in the media, gay community, etc, that being gay, coming out as gay, and living as a gay person; isn't the same as "living the gay lifestyle".

Gay people need to just live their lives, whatever that involves for them. Not adhere to whatever the "gay lifestyle" is, or is "suppose to be".

by Anonymousreply 18July 3, 2019 6:39 PM

These are the scientific definitions! I should know, I spent time with psychiatrists in the 1960s and ‘70s.

I don’t know what is meant by “gay conversion therapy.” There is aversion therapy, which was widely used to “treat” homosexuals prior to the mid-1970s. But real women were not used, of course.

These beautifully made up ladies were not part of any “therapy.” I was just stating what sometimes happened in the natural course of living.

by Anonymousreply 19July 3, 2019 6:39 PM

R16 there are rare times that the affection and relationship between a homo and hetero male are so important, that a hetero man will either enter a sort of 'open' relationship where they get sex elsewhere but come back together for everything else, or the hetero man will 'endure' (not necessarily suffer) through sexual experiences with the homo man just for the reward of knowing they gave pleasure in the abstract.

I'm pretty sure these cases are damn rare though. At some point, probably before all this, a woman would distract the 'couple' and they'd either stop being friends or it would have stayed minimized to best-friends status.

But straight men can be 'less straight' than they would almost always otherwise be, sure. Same with gay. There are indeed some (a few) marriages between a homo man and hetero woman where they're really such best friends that the marriage will never feel like a lie for them, even as one or both of them get their relief in agreed ways elsewhere. But most marriages with this configuration are indeed lies and they suck.

by Anonymousreply 20July 3, 2019 6:42 PM

I've quite a few gay men who had been married to woman first. Yes, they were able to have sex with women because they were young and could have sex with anything at that point.

All of them came out at some point, of course. For the most part, their ex-wifes are still strong friends and supporters (as long as the ex wife gets married to someone else, it seems)

Different people have to deal with such pressure to conform. Some came from religious families; others came from immigrant families.

One of the men I know only came out when he was 70. He had been married TWICE and has three kids.

I don't judge. I'm just happy they found their way.

by Anonymousreply 21July 3, 2019 6:42 PM

I'm a homosexual, of the bisexual type.

by Anonymousreply 22July 3, 2019 6:49 PM

Both my husband of 20 plus years were married to women for the previous 20 years.

While we have now decided we are hopelessly gay, in the olden days I was hopelessly horny. I was screwing girls in high school and got blown jobs from guys.

by Anonymousreply 23July 3, 2019 6:51 PM

^^Both my husband and I of 20...

by Anonymousreply 24July 3, 2019 6:53 PM

If I recall correctly, the various types of homosexual include the closeted homosexual, the effeminate homosexual, the bisexual, and the transsexual.

by Anonymousreply 25July 3, 2019 6:53 PM

R21 yeah the bi friend of mine I've been having such sadness about, he at least has a kind, progressive (though coming from conservative background), literally couples-therapist fiance that has a good chance to intellectually understand this thing, whatever it is.

But she shouldn't need to be his support on this. He would be honest by now about what can more exactly work for him/them/her without the burden assumed on her eventually. She knows he's bi. But I don't know how much she's gotten from him otherwise. She's very nice to me, but I don't know enough about her to know if it is just a trained niceness or a real kindness. The best situation is if she actually has been nudging him to *include* me more, because there may be no way for him to be happy without recognizing for himself that he needs myself or someone else on some level (and he has to say it for himself). Depends on how 'progressive' she really is maybe!

by Anonymousreply 26July 3, 2019 6:54 PM

The thing that people don't understand is that fucking a person can be like fucking a sex toy. I don't get why that NEVER comes up on here.

It's basically like your gay 4 pay types who just fuck guys in the ass / get sucked off.

Just. A. Toy.

by Anonymousreply 27July 3, 2019 6:58 PM

I am a homosexual of the "just . a. toy" type.

by Anonymousreply 28July 3, 2019 7:03 PM

R17, R19, R20, R21, R22, R23, R25, R26, R27, and R28: Okay, so from reading all of your posts, I'm the OP, it seems like there isn't valid definitions, stable consensus, scientific evidence, or truths about anything regarding sexual orientation. In short summary reasons provided are:

It's up to the individual, result of societal, cultural, or religious pressure, it's generational, if the female is highly attractive (well made up), everything is dictated by being horny, MMF's help provide clarity if she is progressive enough, and bisexual, homosexual, and transsexual are interchangeable; and vice versa.

The two men I wrote about are clearly on the same page as all of you. I just can't relate to any of it, because I've been extremely horny and never sought out females for anything. I would seek out men, and when men weren't available, I'd masturbate myself. I've faced pressures also, but I am still a proud gold star homosexual man, and that's never going to change. I'll tell the two guys I know that I'm clearly not compatible for them to discuss things with anymore, and maybe encourage them to just keeping connected with their ex wives after all. Bringing up their bisexuality/homosexuality keeps them closed off, so no point continuing. They might be able to rekindle their ex marriages seeing as they aren't really gay or bisexual, but they are like a mixture of everything at once constantly, or a mixture of nothing at all except sex drive.

Thank you for the responses.

by Anonymousreply 29July 3, 2019 7:44 PM

I've only been homosexual (with at most otherwise, slight bi-curiosity that I've never explored beyond kisses at parties - nope nothin), but I don't really feel the gold star pride.

I can't peak for your guys, but my recent matter has been that my friend is a hair's width away from professing undying love for me (or so it is starting to really really seem), so its not likely to be 'nothing at all except sex drive' fro him. Maybe its something like his fiance represents responsibility (correctly or not) and I represent escape (correctly or not), and he prides himself on being a responsible leader outright alpha male type to all his professional and personal associates. I probably made an impression on him those years ago by actually not giving a shit about that (always at least partial) facade and it always matters more to him than he ever thinks I'll know. I still look out for myself though, so there's no rushing into his arms based just on his needs and gradual enlightenment. But I see no sense, even with as much he professes importance of his hetero relationship, that its just about sex for him. He's turned down sex with so many that it can't be. He'd be the 'stud' that takes women out of the party with everyone assuming they screwed, when instead they did everything but. Compatibility is convincingly everything for him.

I'm not a 'everyone is fluid' person, don't get me wrong, but sexuality isn't actually simple and I totally understand how it has grown as such an academic topic.

by Anonymousreply 30July 3, 2019 8:30 PM

Sorry for the typos.

by Anonymousreply 31July 3, 2019 8:31 PM

R30: Yes and it seems like majority of men are like you, even those who identify as gay, which I believe to be bisexual, but that's my opinion. I've never been bi-curious. I believe sexuality is extremely simple, and believe scientific evidence proves this, and that it proves that heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual are the only legitimate sexual orientations. Anything outside of that was invented for whatever reasons. And because of damage caused by institutions, I think people are just heavily fragmented, therefore true sexual orientation doesn't exist to them. And I just can't get onboard with fucking women as a gay man because of being horny, as I explained in my post at R29. But again, that's how I think and feel about it, and I accept that most aren't like that as evidenced here. In real life I encounter the same too, so I know I'm rare. Everyone has to work themselves out when all is said and done.

by Anonymousreply 32July 3, 2019 9:18 PM

[quote]and bisexual, homosexual, and transsexual are interchangeable;

I didn’t say they were interchangeable. I said that bisexual and transsexual are among the subtypes of homosexual.

by Anonymousreply 33July 4, 2019 12:02 AM

OP is probably just sexually frustrated cuz he thought he would fuck them both when they finally came out, but he probably isn't their type.

by Anonymousreply 34July 4, 2019 12:06 AM

Wrong R34. But think what you like.

by Anonymousreply 35July 4, 2019 12:31 AM

I've met guys who had been married to women and thought to myself that Helen Keller would have known they were gay they flamed so brightly. But I only knew them after--no idea if they were as effeminate and over the top in their previous life or if the over the top-ness was a reaction to being closeted for so long.

I've also known guys who were married who I was very surprised were now gay--no ping at all.

And in between.

Not all of them were from religious, immigrant or conservative families either.

My theory is that for many guys who came of age sexually in the 80s, the idea of being gay was so directly tied to AIDS and an early painful death, that if they could get it up for a woman, they married her and figured that an infrequent unsatisfying sex life was better than death.

by Anonymousreply 36July 4, 2019 12:44 AM

R36: And what about the ones who do the exact same today?

by Anonymousreply 37July 4, 2019 12:56 AM

They're catholic; hypocrisy is their very foundation.

by Anonymousreply 38July 4, 2019 1:23 AM

Why don't you butt out, OP?

Don't you know when something is NOT ANY of your business?

by Anonymousreply 39July 4, 2019 2:17 AM

R39: It is my business because I have the right to ask questions. They've asked me many questions over the period of time that I've known them, and I've answered their questions. This is how you determine compatibility for friendship or anything. To know the character of people etc. Stop being stupid. Plus they brought up these conversations by talking about similar things, and I asked related questions accordingly. Again, stop being stupid. BLOCKED.

by Anonymousreply 40July 4, 2019 8:12 AM

r40 has STATED HER BOUNDARIES!!!

by Anonymousreply 41July 4, 2019 8:18 AM

[quote] Anyway, both of them still talk about their ex wives pretty regularly. I don't care to listen to them etc, but, one still wears his wedding ring, and the other has kids and still confides in his ex wife, but then tells me how she breaks his trust and is cruel. I've told them both that they need to stop communicating with their ex wives anymore than necessary, especially because they are the ones who make out like they still love them, but also hate them. It's weird.

Operating on the (perhaps false) assumption that you are very young with limited life experience and the obvious solution might not be obvious to you, I offer the following advice: If listening to these men describe their feeliings about their ex wives and the ups and downs of these relationships is something you don't want to discuss with them, simply tell them "I don't want to discuss your relationship with your ex wives anymore" Period. End. If they ask why say "I don't think its healthy for me"

You have no business or right telling them who they need to break communication with or trying to resolve what to you is the cognitive disonance in those relationships. They are not required to live their lives to make you comfortable and you are not required to listen to chronic complaining about a situation you have no interest or investment in.

People are complicated. You worry about you and sort out what is your business and what isn't. Those relationships are not your business.

by Anonymousreply 42July 4, 2019 1:43 PM

I suggest you read all what was written R42 in all my posts, because I already explained everything that you brought up, and don't pull the limited experience card, because what that actually translates into, is: "I won't take responsibility for how I messed my life up and for the fact that I don't know what or who I am, so instead of you telling me the truth, I'm going to say you have limited experience as a deflection".

I never said I didn't want them to tell me things. Read my post at the beginning carefully. I explained their behaviour when things were discussed. Both these men suffer from chronic depression, and the reason why I told them to not have unnecessary communication with their ex wives, is because THEY told me about how their ex wives are. It's not healthy or helpful for them, but they don't have the psychological tools or mindset to pull themselves away from things. Which is why I was helping them in the first place. I don't know how you could have missed that. You've missed a lot.

And I'd be reflecting on your reading and comprehending skills "pleco", before commenting, and in case you haven't been made aware "pleco", being older doesn't equal intelligence, wisdom, or introspection. Too many older people haven't figured anything out. But nice appeal to someone's age being the authority on the above-mentioned. I'm not overly young or old. I have had significant experience and been through things. Everyone is unique obviously, but stop the "I'm older therefore I know" gaslighting technique. It won't work on me. These men don't know much. They like that I do. But I'm still humble and I'm always learning obviously, like every human being. But your not in a position to discount what you think my experience is, when you don't actually know me.

You have no idea of my experience or knowledge. These 42 year old men discussed it with me, because they trusted my introspection and knowledge. I'm summing up 2 years of talking with them into one post. So I can't add every single detail or give all information in one go. I included what was necessary and important to understand the situation for those reading. The cognitive dissonance isn't just apparent in their relationships, it's apparent in them and in their behaviour. No one forced them to ask for my help. You don't know my abilities, nor do you know these men more than I do. You aren't suppose to. You are suppose to work within the framework of what I have explained, which you've done a poor job of.

by Anonymousreply 43July 4, 2019 2:28 PM

[quote] And I'd be reflecting on your reading and comprehending skills "pleco"

Well at least you'd be reflecting!

[quote] You are suppose to work within the framework of what I have explained, which you've done a poor job of.

Could you please cite a reference from the handbook that outlines what I am "supposed to do"

[quote] So I can't add every single detail or give all information in one go

Who asked you for a single detail? Who asked you to explain their lives to this audience? I am glad you will be reflecting on your writing and comprehension. Start there.

[quote] It's not healthy or helpful for them, but they don't have the psychological tools or mindset to pull themselves away from things. Which is why I was helping them in the first place. I don't know how you could have missed that. You've missed a lot.

The best thing you can do for them is listen with compassion for you and yourself and stop trying to fix what only they can fix.

by Anonymousreply 44July 4, 2019 2:43 PM

op many men who were once married to women are now with men or date men.

The reasons for this are varied and unique to each man. Maybe they are truly bisexual, maybe they were interested in women at one point in their lives or maybe they were attracted to a specific woman. Maybe they alwasy preferred men but couldn't come to terms with that earlier in life.

There is no monolithic answer that applies. It seems like you don't understand the relationship they have with their ex wives but perhaps want to? Or do you just want them to stop discusslng it with you? You don't have to understand it. You don't have to solve it for them and you don't have to listen if you don't want to. It's their business and the relationships with their ex wives may be more complex and deeper than you know.

by Anonymousreply 45July 4, 2019 3:30 PM

[quote]able to have sex for so long with their ex wives, and both of them said it was easy. Are they lying?

No, they're not lying. As one poster said, they were young and could fuck anything, which is a bit of a simplification, but built around a kernel of truth. Remember we're talking about men, and men are genetically wired to "spread their seed." Growing up gay, particularly in a religious environment, is hard and a lot of men struggle with their same-sex attraction thanks to powerful figures in their lives repeatedly telling them that homosexuality is a sin, a choice, and it is better to choose to be miserable and live a lie than it is to be happy, healthy, authentic and gay. That's the irony of religious nuts claiming homosexuality is a choice.

[quote]Also, these two guys were sexual with each other in the past when one of them was still married, and since then they both hate each other.

...and filling in the blanks, I'm going to guess that the one in the closet was pissed when his fuckbuddy came out, publicly, and it outed the closeted one in a roundabout way, probably leading to questions between he and his wife and their split, which ultimately he blames on his out buddy because everything was going great until buddy had to go and blab all of the deets... and no, I'm not speaking from experience here, aside from knowing how oppressive and uncomfortable the closet is.

Which is not to say I'm a gold-star gay. I had a serious girlfriend that started in high school and lasted through college, with a six-month break (in which we both dated men). I felt a connection with her that until I met my husband, I didn't think was possible to have with more than one person in your life. If I weren't gay, we would have gotten married, had two kids and lead the perfect American life. We were simpatico. There were many reasons why, not the least of which was that we were matched sexually; she always said she was a gay man trapped in a woman's body. We dated for a total of 3.5 years, and during that time, rarely a day went by that we didn't fuck. Even during our brief split, we still fucked. Not to be cute, but for me there was something missing. And by the end, I knew it was untenable... and so did she.

Which is not to say that I didn't love her, and her me. I still hold the memory in my heart and think about her now and then; we haven't spoken in a long time, but keep tabs on each other via mutual friends. Another irony is that the mutual friend who introduced us also introduced her to her husband (of now, 20+ years) and when he told me she'd had a daughter and that she'd named their daughter one that we'd discussed for our hypothetical kids, I was touched. I was also, in an odd way, relieved; one of the ways in which I realized the relationship was unworkable was because, deep down, I didn't and don't want to pass my family genes on to another generation (another long story best summarized as wisely keeping the cork in that bottle).

by Anonymousreply 46July 4, 2019 4:26 PM

r46 If you were so sexually attracted and compatible and romantically in love with this woman and would be married with kids with her today if not for your husband, why do you consider yourself gay and not bisexual?

by Anonymousreply 47July 18, 2019 5:09 PM

"...one still wears his wedding ring, and the other has kids and still confides in his ex wife, but then tells me how she breaks his trust and is cruel. I've told them both that they need to stop communicating with their ex wives anymore than necessary"

As long as there are kids, the relationship with the ex-wife is going to continue, hopefully on a civil or friendly basis. And if not on a friendly or civil basis, they're still tied together as long as the kids are alive.

My guess would be that both of these guys expect the ex-wife to continue in the supportive/forgiving/primary-caregiver role that the typical wife is expected to assume, even after the divorce and coming-out. And that these guys were brought up as straight or straight-acting, and as such they expect someone to be there to be supportive and forgiving, and they will continue to expect the wives to fulfill that role until they find a new life partner who is willing to take on the job. It doesn't sound like the ex-wives want to keep fulfilling the role, especially the one that's described as "cruel", but if you asked your ex-straight pals why they expect a jilted ex wife to be supportive and forgiving he'll probably say "... but we're friends now".

by Anonymousreply 48July 18, 2019 8:51 PM

r14 I have genuinely never thought of or heard bisexuality described as a type of homosexuality. Never looked at it that way and I am trying to digest what it actually means.

by Anonymousreply 49July 18, 2019 8:55 PM
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