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Marsha Johnson admits to NOT starting the Stonewall Rebellion; neither did Sylvia Rivera.; AUDIO interview

Send this link to all those annoying SJW myth-making gullible queer-fluid greenhaired idgits.

"I was uptown and I didn’t get downtown until about two o’clock, because when I got downtown the place was already on fire. And it was a raid already. The riots had already started. And they said the police went in there and set the place on fire. They said the police set it on fire because they originally wanted the Stonewall to close, so they had several raids.” – Marsha P. Johnson

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by Anonymousreply 213July 2, 2019 8:53 PM

Let’s stop with these these pointless, divisive threads.

I’m just about sick of them.

We need more unity.

This is a gay site during PRIDE month.

Give it a fucking rest already.

by Anonymousreply 1June 18, 2019 4:30 PM

FF THESE SCUMBAGs at OP.

by Anonymousreply 2June 18, 2019 4:30 PM

No one thinks she started it. Even her Wikipedia says she denied starting it.

People get confused and think her dropping a brick on a police car was "throwing the first brick" but no one with any credibility makes this claim.

by Anonymousreply 3June 18, 2019 4:31 PM

No one has ever said they started it. They were present.

by Anonymousreply 4June 18, 2019 4:32 PM

[quote]No one has ever said they started it.

Oh, fucking PLEASE!

by Anonymousreply 5June 18, 2019 4:39 PM

Doesn't matter r3. I'm sick of transtrenders and their sycophants whose parents weren't even born at the time stating Stonewall was started by Marsha and gay rights were solely won by transgenders.

by Anonymousreply 6June 18, 2019 4:41 PM

Thank you, OP. Clearly most of the responses already illustrate why this actually DOES need to be posted.

by Anonymousreply 7June 18, 2019 4:46 PM

It needs to be repeated and often.

There are tons of sites saying these two “trans” activists started Stonewall. Which is a complete fabrication.

by Anonymousreply 8June 18, 2019 4:49 PM

Gore Vidal.

by Anonymousreply 9June 18, 2019 4:52 PM

They're getting their own monument.

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by Anonymousreply 10June 18, 2019 4:53 PM

Of course it wasn't Sylvia Rivera. It was Sylvia PLATH.

by Anonymousreply 11June 18, 2019 5:07 PM

The links been blocked

by Anonymousreply 12June 18, 2019 5:07 PM

R11: It was, in fact, Sylvia MILES!

by Anonymousreply 13June 18, 2019 5:14 PM

Too right r1, this is a gay site during what has traditionally been known as gay pride yet some here feel the need to tell gays to shut up when we try to reclaim our history and stop it from being stolen from us by a bunch of chancers.

by Anonymousreply 14June 18, 2019 5:43 PM

New word: "chancer"

[quote]a British term for someone who takes advantage of situations and manipulates them to his own benefit.

[quote]a reckless, improvident, often somewhat unscrupulous opportunist

Thanks, Britty Boy r14.

by Anonymousreply 15June 18, 2019 5:51 PM

[quote]No one thinks she started it. Even her Wikipedia says she denied starting it.

Just this morning on Morning Joe some Dem Congresswoman from Kansas stated that Stonewall was started by black trans activists.

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by Anonymousreply 16June 18, 2019 6:36 PM

On the first page of Googling "trans started Stonewall" -

[quote]While the raid and the riot that followed went down in history, Rivera and Johnson's contributions related to the uprising didn't make much news. In fact, as iconic as Stonewall was to the gay liberation struggle that blossomed in the 1970s, it also became a symbol of a largely white, male movement that relegated people of color and women to its margins.

[quote]Johnson was a patron at the bar who "really started it" on the night of the riots, according to one witness in David Carter's 2004 book Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution.

And there are many, many more examples online of gays being gay-washed out of Stonewall history, which is now a trans event.

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by Anonymousreply 17June 18, 2019 6:43 PM

A man pretending to be a woman pretending to start Stonewall? Gee, what a surprise.

by Anonymousreply 18June 18, 2019 6:48 PM

There are some reports that say Sylvia Rivera hadn't even arrived in New York yet. The story I'd always heard that as they were arresting people, a lesbian was resisting and then everything just kinda exploded with people throwing rocks and change at the officers, the drag queens forming a kick line, the club catching on fire. Nobody really knows who started it. Until the last few years where it's been changed to Johnson and Rivera.

by Anonymousreply 19June 18, 2019 6:53 PM

Today 06/18/2019 on Twitter:

[quote]Rep. Sharice Davids: "Even Stonewall was started by a group of black, trans activists... it's our job to make sure that we're listening to every aspect of, not just the LGBTQ community, but communities that have often been left out of the conversation"

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by Anonymousreply 20June 18, 2019 6:57 PM

[quote]ah yes a black trans woman threw the first brick at stonewall and initiated the riots which gave you your freedom but let’s just remove the inclusion of trans people in our community

(There are hundreds and hundreds of examples on Twitter. Search "trans Stonewall")

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by Anonymousreply 21June 18, 2019 7:01 PM

There were so few Trans people back then it's laughable they are trying to claim they started Stonewall. Besides, as we have seen, most Trans don't identify with the gay community, they seem themselves as stick heterosexual rolls as male or female. Usually with a superficial interpolation of what it is to be a man or woman.

by Anonymousreply 22June 18, 2019 7:26 PM

R13, actually, it was Sylvia Sidney!

by Anonymousreply 23June 18, 2019 9:43 PM

Didn't Marsha Johnson said himself he considered himself a man ? Why do people keep saying he was Trans then? It makes no sense.

by Anonymousreply 24June 18, 2019 9:46 PM

[quote]Trans don't identify with the gay community, they seem themselves as stick heterosexual rolls as male or female.

Huh?

by Anonymousreply 25June 18, 2019 11:09 PM

"stick heterosexual rolls"

Are those anything like my Let's Roll Cinnamon Rolls™?

by Anonymousreply 26June 19, 2019 5:10 AM

OP's link

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by Anonymousreply 27June 19, 2019 5:17 AM

I only push back when these claims are made to denigrate gay men - as if we were pussies hiding behind trans skirts. These claims are homophobic at best, playing at stereotypes of gay men (weak, afraid) to put trans up on a pedestal. It really bugs me. And as a Prof, I've recently seen students making such claims, mindlessly parroting what they read on Twitter instead of engaging in a bit of incredibly easy investigation.

by Anonymousreply 28June 19, 2019 5:53 AM

Who wanted prove that gay history is being rewritten?

[quote] The two transgender women of colour led the uprising against homophobic police raids, an era-defining moment in the struggle for LGBT equality.

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by Anonymousreply 29June 19, 2019 6:21 AM

The whole term "people of colour" really aggravates me. Didn't politically correct people decide years ago that "coloured" was derogatory? Also it implies that no other humans have skin tone. Totally dumb phrase.

by Anonymousreply 30June 19, 2019 6:46 AM

You and me both. Plus - "black and brown bodies"... Believe me, the brown people I know do NOT want to be bracketed with black people.

by Anonymousreply 31June 19, 2019 6:50 AM

These people are trying to control our language. Also I don't like how we are all lumped in together. In a way lumping everyone who is not straight etc together makes us weaker. Is LGBTQIA etc a conspiracy that's been created by the right? Imagine if it was done to all non white people? They'd never stand for it yet somehow gays have.

by Anonymousreply 32June 19, 2019 7:09 AM

The left has been severely damaged by all the finnicky wingers who we know as SJWs. God knows when Britain or America will get a left wing government again, but my guess is not for a few decades.

by Anonymousreply 33June 19, 2019 7:14 AM

Since Asexuals have been added to the soup why not go the whole hog and just add S for straight? Total insanity and really making a mockery if what gay liberation was for.

by Anonymousreply 34June 19, 2019 7:18 AM

Q is for straight, R34

by Anonymousreply 35June 19, 2019 7:19 AM

I've seen many anti lgbt videos online a lot by young straights. What struck me is that the anger is often directed at trans people who tell them what pronouns to use. Of course we gays being lumped in with them are also targeted. This must stop, gays are not trans and we shouldn't be getting blamed for their bullying techniques. We are being set back years because we are saddled to them.

by Anonymousreply 36June 19, 2019 7:27 AM

Drunk History also claimed Marsha started the uprising. I remember reading an interview with Marsha where she said Sylvia was in a park nodded out on heroin when the riot started.

by Anonymousreply 37June 19, 2019 7:29 AM

I just say LGB now.

by Anonymousreply 38June 19, 2019 7:34 AM

Ugh, I went to a Meetup a few months back but I stopped going after the first meeting when a Trans thing decided to dictate to the rest of us who we were. As we went around the room to introduce ourselves, she asked the moderator to stop and go around the room with everyone using pronouns. He/Him, She/Her, They/Them etc.

Every single Trans person I have met so far, always about them and the need for attention. No one was talking about their gender to begin with.

by Anonymousreply 39June 19, 2019 7:36 AM

R39. So exhausting. Why are so many of them aggressive?

by Anonymousreply 40June 19, 2019 8:00 AM

I went to see a theatre presentation called Riot Act last weekend, based on the testimonies of gay men about their lives in the 60s, 70s and 80s. The 60s one again laid all the credit for the Stonewall riot at Martha's feet. It's really pissing me off, especially with something that is meant to be based on first hand testimonial.

by Anonymousreply 41June 19, 2019 8:09 AM

R28 – you’re so right, that’s exactly one of the points the play was trying to make. That the clientele of the Stonewall bar were all ineffectual white gay men who would not dare fight back, and it took the courage of these trans people to kick it all off. That’s what enrages me.

by Anonymousreply 42June 19, 2019 10:43 AM

That was meant to be credited to R41, obviously.

That this myth is used by the likes of the revolting (pardon the pun) Alok to claim lesbians and gay men ‘owe’ their liberation / pride / whatever to trans POCs really boils my piss.

by Anonymousreply 43June 19, 2019 10:46 AM

At the Broadway Bares event in NYC on Sunday, one of the running skits was 2 older gay men and 2 younger gay men on vacation at the same time. At one point they go to Stonewall and the 2 young guys don't know what that is. It's followed by one of the older guys going off on how it's important to remember where we came from and how they got the rights they now enjoy. Actually a nice moment. But it's immediately followed by a dance routine which starts with Marsha throwing the brick. Completely undermining the point they just made. Rewriting history to fit your current agenda is as bad as not knowing your history.

by Anonymousreply 44June 19, 2019 11:39 AM

[quote]I just say LGB now.

I just say “gay community.”

by Anonymousreply 45June 19, 2019 12:07 PM

I mean...

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by Anonymousreply 46June 19, 2019 12:23 PM

OP fix your fucking link.

by Anonymousreply 47June 19, 2019 12:33 PM

This should work.

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by Anonymousreply 48June 19, 2019 12:36 PM

Xim

by Anonymousreply 49June 19, 2019 12:45 PM

HE/SHE HIM/HER HIS/HER HIS/HERS HIMSELF/HERSELF zie zim zir zis zieself sie sie hir hirs hirself ey em eir eirs eirself ve ver vis vers verself tey ter tem ters terself e em eir eirs emself

by Anonymousreply 50June 19, 2019 12:46 PM

Who started this lie anyway? The men were men in women’s clothes, not trans, as well as at least one not even being in the vicinity. It’s propaganda.

by Anonymousreply 51June 19, 2019 12:51 PM

RuPaul helped spread it and continues to do so.

by Anonymousreply 52June 19, 2019 12:56 PM

This thread is killing a trans woman of color every minute! Shut it down!

by Anonymousreply 53June 19, 2019 1:03 PM

9,627,085 TRANS POCs have died since this thread opened.

by Anonymousreply 54June 19, 2019 1:07 PM

The mainstream media should be exposing it, but since they are too weak, they won’t.

by Anonymousreply 55June 19, 2019 1:10 PM

[Quote]The men were men in women’s clothes, not trans

The premise, I believe, is that those individuals would now identify as transgender if they were around today.

[Quote]The same year that Virginia Prince first used the term “transgenderal,” 1969, was also the year that the Stonewall Riots kicked off the modern gay rights movement. This moment marked a sea change in terms of wider visibility for the LGBTQ+ community.

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by Anonymousreply 56June 19, 2019 1:16 PM

The premise, that they would identify as trans nowadays, fails to acknowledge the fact that coming out as trans gives more social prestige nowadays that being "merely" a crossdresser and not necessarily the truth. So those demands to use the right pronouns or else! will have to go both ways and they'll have to respect the descriptions those individuals gave of themselves.

by Anonymousreply 57June 19, 2019 1:34 PM

[R57] exactly.

by Anonymousreply 58June 19, 2019 1:46 PM

Why would anyone want to be a woman?

by Anonymousreply 59June 19, 2019 1:59 PM

They don't really want to be women, R59, for the straight men it's a fetish (autogynephilia) for gay men it's hating their homosexuality so much they'd rather play dress up so they can get 'straight' guys. Based on how a lot of transwomen treat biological women, I'd say they hate women.

by Anonymousreply 60June 19, 2019 2:08 PM

The Entertainment Weekly Pride issue featured a story on Stonewall from a Philly writer who was supposedly there during the riots. He bitches about that film a few years ago, "Stonewall" saying that it focused too much on a white boy when it was people of color who were behind it all - he was there and saw it unfold.

by Anonymousreply 61June 19, 2019 2:11 PM

[quote] So exhausting. Why are so many of them aggressive?

Because they're MEN.

by Anonymousreply 62June 19, 2019 2:12 PM

Actually, the "drag queens" at Stonewall weren't that, either: what these young men were doing was known as "scare drag" -- simply dressing in a way that would confuse other people as to whether they were men or women -- it wasn't transgender in the modern sense, but probably more like what is called "non-binary" today. And there was only a handful of them.

Additionally, while there was a definite cohort of "black and brown bodies" participating in the riots (and a small number of lesbians, including the one whose actions likely initiated the riot), the vast majority were young, white gay men.

Finally, if we want thank anybody for the creation of Pride, it is white gay men and lesbians: Morris Knight and Rev Troy Perry in LA and Craig Rodwell, Fred Sargeant, Ellen Broidy, Linda Rhodes and Brenda Howard, among others - they were the ones who decided to commemorate the riots with a celebration of pride against the background of a hostile, often oppressive culture.

r61, which is considering that most other participants don't say that, and that none of the news reports at the time mention it (and trust me, in 1969, a riot in which the majority were "people of color" would've been front page news).

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by Anonymousreply 63June 19, 2019 2:16 PM

[quote]Ellen Broidy

The [italic]Jaws[/italic] lady?

by Anonymousreply 64June 19, 2019 2:19 PM

I was a youngster when Stonewall happened and I clearly remember the stories that spread quickly and how we all felt about it. Back then, it was said the riot was started by a lesbian resisting the police and the crowd of gay man and queens rushed to protect her. When the clubs came out, the bricks and stones were thrown. It wasn't one damn or ONE person who started it....it was a crowd reacting and if you've ever been in a riot (I have) you cannot see what or who is happening at any specific moment.

FFS, they don't even know who fired the first shot on the Lexington Green! Enough with the historical revamp....WE STAND TOGETHER and STONEWALL WAS A GROUP EFFORT.

by Anonymousreply 65June 19, 2019 2:21 PM

A group effort led by us ! Like the first gay pride ! The gays rights back then and now ! We did it all ! We even cared for the homosexuals dying of AIDS while the TERFS were terfing !

But make no mistake, we didn't spread the AIDS, it was all done by those filthy white queers !

by Anonymousreply 66June 19, 2019 2:31 PM

It was Carroll Baker....

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by Anonymousreply 67June 19, 2019 2:31 PM

Lots of errors in my post and I apologize. I'm tired of the divisiveness. We need to come together, like that day, and stand tall for each other.

In the weeks following Stonewall I remember being, by turns, elated and enraged. We've come a long way since then. I don't think the Ts are dragging us down as much as trying to deal with the lack of support they perceive as coming from both sides of the situation....from the straight and the gay community being opposed to them. This effort to rewrite history seems to be more focused on a sense of betrayal than of real pride in those people; an effort to justify their current violence and reactions to lesbian women calling them out for their hypocrisy in supposedly championing women's rights and then trampling on them.

Live and let live, ffs, and when the more radical elements in the T community stop dragging and beating up the "TERF" lesbians they supposedly 'protected' on that horrible, wonderful day, we'll be better for it. You can't rewrite history and then become a hypocrite expecting acceptance in the same breath. Either you protected that lesbian as a T or you're just full of shit.

by Anonymousreply 68June 19, 2019 2:32 PM

Now this thread has literally killed 20,000,000 trans POC

by Anonymousreply 69June 19, 2019 2:33 PM

[quote]Rep. Sharice Davids: "Even Stonewall was started by a group of black, trans activists... it's our job to make sure that we're marginalizing gay men and lesbians, but especially gay white and Jewish men, by saying they had nothing to do with their own history and so I can disguise my own homophobia"

Fixed.

by Anonymousreply 70June 19, 2019 2:35 PM

The word was that the Queens put up a tough wall of resistance and that our gay brothers were kicking ass all over the damn place. It's what we heard up in Boston....I remember it like it was yesterday. Everyone wanted to know who the lesbian was that resisted. Why isn't she given some kind of statue? How come we don't know her name? And why aren't these 'women' putting it forward?

The agenda is to divide. I'll ask the questions in the community and without rancor, but I'll be damned if I allow anyone to promote hatred over what was a defining moment in our community's history. It was OUR Lexington Green and we were ALL represented that day.....white, black, queens, twinks, lesbians, hispanic, etc.

by Anonymousreply 71June 19, 2019 2:40 PM

“Gay” “men” are women.

“Lesbians” are men.

“Homosexuality” is transphobic and heterophobic.

“Homosexuals” are selfish, bigoted, and greedy for insisting sex is real and using that as an excuse to cockblock women with penises.

“Sex” is a social construct, therefore “homosexuality” cannot possibly be real, and thus neither can so-called “homophobia.” That is transphobic and heterophobic to insist such a thing exists.

by Anonymousreply 72June 19, 2019 2:42 PM

R72 is spot-on these Goonies with mangled genitalia just want to spread out the insanity within their mind to the outside to make your head explode. You can’t reason with crazy and well intentioned people placate to them because they can’t make heads or tails of what is ultimately insane rants.

by Anonymousreply 73June 19, 2019 2:45 PM

“Homosexuality” isn’t just transphobic and heterophobic, it’s Islamophobic as well. Refusing to respect nonwhite non-Jewish cultural differences is a form of racism. If Islamic culture says gays must either trans or die, then refusing to submit is a form of racism, Islamophobia, transphobia, and heterophobia.

“Homosexuality” is a reactionary bourgeois lifestyle rightly condemned by both Communists and Nazis, who were both victims of White American imperialism. Stalin was against it. Hitler was against it. Churchill was against it. Roosevelt was against it. What does that tell you when both the Axis and Allies in WWII were against it?

by Anonymousreply 74June 19, 2019 2:48 PM

Muriel will be shutting this thread down soon. Not all T's, in my experience, are loons. This whole situation is fucking tragic.

And I'm sure the trolls know it and are wedging that issue in hard. Don't fall for it.

by Anonymousreply 75June 19, 2019 2:54 PM

The trolls are the ones calling people bigots for objecting to gay people being mutilated even after conclusive proof of it is presented.

by Anonymousreply 76June 19, 2019 3:08 PM

For all anyone knows, the riots could have been set off by a straight Jewish woman from Brooklyn. The point is, people with an agenda are trying to erase gay white men from their own history.

by Anonymousreply 77June 19, 2019 3:18 PM

So now the story is that there is a Lesbian Rosa Parks who needs statues dedicated to her, per OldLez?

Lezza Parks and the Trannies created Pride is the new narrative.

by Anonymousreply 78June 19, 2019 3:23 PM

Well, r78, for what it's worth, one of the few events that all participants in the Stonewall riot agree occurred was a young, butch lesbian resisting arrest by running around a cop car, and yelling at the crowd something to the effect "Why aren't you fighting back?"

It's strange: that is the one thing everyone agrees happened, but the trans person of color throwing the first brick was not witnessed by anybody, and yet the latter is given all the adulation by the twitterati and "woke" websites while the former is pretty much ignored.

by Anonymousreply 79June 19, 2019 3:28 PM

I for one support the lesbian statue, if it’s modeled off this picture.

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by Anonymousreply 80June 19, 2019 3:34 PM

No good, r80. It’d come out looking too much like Ralph Kramden.

by Anonymousreply 81June 19, 2019 3:45 PM

So sick of having to hear about these two junkie whores.

by Anonymousreply 82June 19, 2019 3:47 PM

R81 good, they’ve been petitioning to take down the Ralph Kramden statue at Port Authority, so with a few revisions we could make it a bull dyke (add a sports bra line and a cigar) and haul it down to Christopher Street Park.

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by Anonymousreply 83June 19, 2019 3:48 PM

I'm pretty sure I already know the answer, but what's this about the Ralph Kramden statue?

by Anonymousreply 84June 19, 2019 4:12 PM

R84 the Twitter mob wants it removed because he was gonna send Alice “to the moon”! You know revising past social norms of sitcoms.

by Anonymousreply 85June 19, 2019 4:14 PM

r85 that's what I figured.

by Anonymousreply 86June 19, 2019 4:15 PM

Stormé DeLarverie is the lesbian who claimed to be there. A butch dyke has more right to have a statue dedicated to her than Marsha & Sylvia.

Fifty years later, the events of June 28, 1969, have been called "the Stonewall riots." However, DeLarverie was very clear that "riot" is a misleading description:

It was a rebellion, it was an uprising, it was a civil rights disobedience – it wasn't no damn riot. — Stormé DeLarverie

At the Stonewall rebellion, a scuffle broke out when a woman in handcuffs, who may have been Stormé, was roughly escorted from the door of the bar to the waiting police wagon. She was brought through the crowd by police several times, as she escaped repeatedly. She fought with at least four of the police, swearing and shouting, for about ten minutes. Described by a witness as "a typical New York butch" and "a dyke-stone butch," she had been hit on the head by an officer with a baton for, as one witness stated, announcing that her handcuffs were too tight. She was bleeding from a head wound as she fought back. Bystanders recalled that the woman, whose identity remains uncertain (Stormé has been identified by some, including herself, as the woman, but accounts vary), sparked the crowd to fight when she looked at bystanders and shouted, "Why don't you guys do something?" After an officer picked her up and heaved her into the back of the wagon, the crowd became a mob and went "berserk": "It was at that moment that the scene became explosive." Some have referred to that woman as "the gay community's Rosa Parks".

"'Nobody knows who threw the first punch, but it's rumored that she did, and she said she did,' said Lisa Cannistraci, a friend of DeLarverie and owner of the Village lesbian bar Henrietta Hudson. 'She told me she did.'

Whether or not DeLarverie was the woman who fought her way out of the police wagon, all accounts agree that she was one of several butch lesbians who fought back against the police during the uprising.

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by Anonymousreply 87June 19, 2019 6:20 PM

JFC, R78, that part of the recollection is pretty standard. My point was that NO ONE needs to take credit for something a crowd of people did to protect someone. Get off your high fucking horse.

by Anonymousreply 88June 19, 2019 6:23 PM

Correction: a crowd of gay men, queens, and lesbians......ALL OF US

R78 is this divisive asshole troll with an anti-T agenda. I'm not fond of the current shit surrounding their more radical views, but damn if I'm going to start cherry picking people's posts to forward my bullshit. Block this asshole back into the basement.

by Anonymousreply 89June 19, 2019 6:27 PM

I'm aghast and saddened that a defining moment in our history seeks to exclude those of us who've been out there since the beginning.

We heard the stories in Boston and you know what? No one asked who was wearing what, no one cared what color anyone was or how they identified. We felt pride for all those brave souls and yes, we were afraid for our damned lives from the cops after that, and rightfully so. Many of us were harassed and followed. Gay bashing went way up, but we knew the tide had turned. I don't want to forget that....ever.

by Anonymousreply 90June 19, 2019 6:40 PM

I'm upset and sorry to be so emotional. I meant to say that I'm saddened by people in our community attempting to revise a defining moment in our history.

The moment wasn't seeking to exclude gay men and lesbians....just the assholes with an agenda, T or not. I suspect they are not.

by Anonymousreply 91June 19, 2019 6:43 PM

Being protective of GAY History is not being anti-T.

Erasing and gay-washing of GAY History, however, IS anti-gay.

by Anonymousreply 92June 19, 2019 6:51 PM

Stormie lived out her life at the Chelsea Hotel where she died a few years back. I stayed there for a while about 12 years ago and used to hang in the lobby a lot because my room was so fucking dank and reeked of old cigs and had no light, so I'd bring my laptop down to the lobby and park myself there to work. Stormie used to sit in the lobby for hours on end and would talk to anyone, and boy did she love to talk. I had no idea who she was when we first struck up a conversation, and in fact, it took me a few visits to realize she was a she. I thought at first she was some old queen. We talked a lot about the 40s and 50s, which she seemed to prefer discussing. She was definitely a character and lived her life OUT, and should be remembered far more than the tired messes Marsha Johnson and especially Sylvia Rivera.

by Anonymousreply 93June 19, 2019 7:01 PM

Thanks, R93. I find it refreshing that she wasn't looking for accolades.

by Anonymousreply 94June 19, 2019 10:35 PM

[R93] thank you for that.

by Anonymousreply 95June 19, 2019 10:54 PM

What I'm confused about aside is why Stonewall gets so much attention when Black Cat Tavern happened before it. Not to mention the European cities.

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by Anonymousreply 96June 19, 2019 10:59 PM

'The Queer Revolution'?

oh fuck

by Anonymousreply 97June 19, 2019 11:09 PM

It wasn't me! I was having lunch and dinner at Fung Lao's Chinese!

by Anonymousreply 98June 19, 2019 11:12 PM

[quote]Finally, if we want thank anybody for the creation of Pride, it is white gay men and lesbians: Morris Knight and Rev Troy Perry in LA and Craig Rodwell, Fred Sargeant, Ellen Broidy, Linda Rhodes and Brenda Howard, among others - they were the ones who decided to commemorate the riots with a celebration of pride against the background of a hostile, often oppressive culture.

R63 I would agree but it should read gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals. Brenda Howard, called the "Mother of Pride," was bisexual not a lesbian.

by Anonymousreply 99June 19, 2019 11:12 PM

I'm so fucking tired of the word "Queer." I'm a gay man, I'm not queer, and I'm tired of people who have nothing to do with being gay telling me how I should identify.

by Anonymousreply 100June 20, 2019 12:41 AM

R100 yeah reminds me of rednecks saying “goddamn fucking Queers!”

by Anonymousreply 101June 20, 2019 12:42 AM

If Sylvia Rivera and Marsha were such important figures, how come they were pretty obscure until five minutes ago?

by Anonymousreply 102June 20, 2019 1:03 AM

R102 because so we’re the Tranny monsters

by Anonymousreply 103June 20, 2019 1:07 AM

Native Americans didn't have the word GAY in their vocabulary. But like all cultures, gay springs eternal so they called them Two Spirit people. They took on both traditional male and female rolls. Now the Trans Mafia has left out that second part (both rolls) and claim they were all trans because they were bone male but wanted to be female.

Last time I checked most Trans do not identify at both male and female. They usually want to forget their gender at birth.

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by Anonymousreply 104June 20, 2019 1:25 AM

r4 is a good example of "if you're a complete moron you shouldn't post stupid BS on DL." Trying to spread a lie that is so universally false you wouldn't be able to sell it to a five year old... now who does that sound like?

by Anonymousreply 105June 20, 2019 1:40 AM

Nobody 'started' anything. LGBT struggle for equality is timeless. And endless; we can never rest because the Haters are always there, waiting in the shadows.

by Anonymousreply 106June 20, 2019 1:53 AM

I'm not gonna read all these fucking replies, but neither Marsha nor Sylvia were trans. Sylvia took female hormones ONLY in the last few years of her life. But in the late 60s when Stonewall took place, she identified as a gay man. And so did Marsha. They were both severely troubled people. Marsha was known to have psychological problems. They were both prostitutes. So don't insult the trans folks cause those two had nothing to do with that community. They were gay men.

by Anonymousreply 107June 20, 2019 2:01 AM

Just so we're clear, I'm old. I've lived in the Village since 1976. I've known a lot of people who were at Stonewall and more that knew Marsha Johnson. Marsha was not trans. There were trans people then and everyone knew about them. Marsha identified as a man and a drag queen. I understand young trans people want role models but making up history will not help your cause. This is indisputable so the sooner you stop claiming a false narrative, the better it will be for your cause.

by Anonymousreply 108June 20, 2019 2:06 AM

What r107 said.

by Anonymousreply 109June 20, 2019 2:08 AM

Marsha was the spark!!! She even designed the t shirt and reserved the url!

by Anonymousreply 110June 20, 2019 2:09 AM

r104, actually, recent research is shedding a less rosy picture of the "two spirit" people of Native American societies: turns out there were two paths to being two spirit -- little boys who were effeminate were "assigned" a female role and were raised as girls because they transgressed accepted gender roles, or warriors from enemy tribes who were prisoners were forced to adopt a female role, as they had shamed themselves by being captured -- the greatest insult to a Native American man was to be called a woman.

So two spirit wasn't the revolutionary concept many try to portray it as.

by Anonymousreply 111June 20, 2019 4:26 AM

I don’t ever recall so much disingenuousness from the gay community as the trans activists throw out there. This is a good example. Another is the idea that there’s an epidemic of violence against trans people, which certainly isn’t true in the US or Europe where most people making these arguments are posting from. A third example would be the idea that UK women, for example, being very direct in fighting back against the eradication of single-sex spaces is an “attack” on trans people. I just can’t recall the gay community using this kind of misinformation to try to get its own way say with gay marriage rights.

by Anonymousreply 112June 20, 2019 4:54 AM

Lets be honest, most trans lie all the time especially to their sex partners hoping they don't notice their real gender. AKA The Crying Game. The ones who have gone all the way with surgery don't even feel guilty about it. Yet DNA test still says otherwise.

by Anonymousreply 113June 20, 2019 5:03 AM

[quote] it was said the riot was started by a lesbian resisting the police and the crowd of gay man and queens rushed to protect her

Which is probably the truth, based on the few eyewitness testimonies we have.

What people fail to remember is that there were some trans in the bars that night, because the bars had slowly allowed a small number of trans and crossdressers to perform and be customers -- they'd kept them out previously because the mob and the paid-off cops were happy to be paid to look the other way for gays, not for trannies.

That night, most trans people were carted off first. They were involved but don't get credit because the cops rounded them up first, after humiliating strip searches.

In parades and protests in the following weeks, trans people were major players and organizers, but the gays were still wary because they saw the trans community, full of non-whites and sex workers, as being too classless and a liability. They didn't want these "undesirables" to ruin their chances at achieving gay rights.

That's been a huge source of the contention between the communities and anyone who has studied anything about LGBT history would know this, but DL is full of people who know nothing about the history.

Just watch "Vito," for fuck's sake. There's an extended clip of the white gays complaining about the trans bringing their movement down, the lesbians saying trans women are sexist and just mimicking real women, and the trans ignoring the women because they don't matter while screaming at the gays to acknowledge their contributions.

It's the EXACT SAME SITUATION TODAY and none of the frau hetero interlopers will admit it, but they're using that decades-long clash between the communities to divide.

And this backlash of revisionist history is happening because too many gays and lesbians wouldn't admit the real history in the first place. They wouldn't accept trans were part of the movement in the 60s or with Stonewall on any level, so now the news is telling everyone that Marsha P. Johnson -- who SAID HERSELF that she didn't start Stonewall -- "started Stonewall by throwing the first brick."

All the ignorant, resentful, churlish people on DL can do is say "Fuck Marsha Johnson for claiming this" even though they are told, time and again, year after year, that she never did.

Honestly, if the community had paid attention and not sat around bitching incessantly at each other for decades, they could have prevented this.

by Anonymousreply 114June 20, 2019 5:26 AM

Now 100,000,000 TRANS POC have been murdered since this thread started

by Anonymousreply 115June 20, 2019 10:47 AM

[quote]They took on both traditional male and female rolls. Now the Trans Mafia has left out that second part (both rolls)

Are there traditional male and female bagels, too?

by Anonymousreply 116June 20, 2019 11:45 AM

r114 When you write "trans," do you mean transvestite or transsexual. If you mean transvestite, you're on solid footing. If you mean transsexual, will you provide your source?

by Anonymousreply 117June 20, 2019 12:12 PM

No, r117! It's just the age old debate, and it's all the gays' fault for not acknowledging trans forever!

by Anonymousreply 118June 20, 2019 1:04 PM

Well, I said trans as a catch-all for transvestite and transsexual both, though primarily transvestite. STAR were the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries, for example. The terms transvestite, transsexual and transgender are complicated because their definitions changed over time, but in the 1960s transvestite and transsexual were often used as synonyms.

by Anonymousreply 119June 20, 2019 1:14 PM

r114

[quote]because the bars had slowly allowed a small number of trans and crossdressers to perform and be customers

Sounds like drag queens to me, not trans. Drag queens went by all sorts of names at that time, since this gender "wrong brain" framework being pushed now is relatively new. And indeed this is borne out by the evidence.

I love that r114 is conveniently finding a way to blame gays for the trans-washing of gay history. The message is clear: Trans are Responsible for gay Rights!!! and if you prove they aren't then Trans Started Stonewall!!! and if you prove that they didn't then Trans PoC and Sex Workers are the Erased Backbone of gay History!!! and if you ask for evidence then you're a bigot and it's actually your fault that trans women of color are dying.

Give me a break!

by Anonymousreply 120June 20, 2019 1:18 PM

R120 OMG you just personally killed ten million trans women of color with your transphobia!!! It's just EXHAUSTING, y'all!!!

by Anonymousreply 121June 20, 2019 1:21 PM

That's not my message at all, asshole.

And no one asked for evidence that I failed to provide.

by Anonymousreply 122June 20, 2019 1:23 PM

And POOF! you all disappear into anti-trans fanaticland where you will dwell in silence forever, at least in my world.

You are awful, bigoted people who don't give a fuck about women. If you did, you'd be fighting for abortion rights instead of wasting everyone's time with your ridiculous trash.

by Anonymousreply 123June 20, 2019 1:28 PM

R123 I love how you label everyone as "anti-trans" rather than actually responding to, say, ANY of the perfectly reasonable arguments.

Take the bullying bullshit back to Twitter; it won't work here.

by Anonymousreply 124June 20, 2019 1:30 PM

Amen, R124.

by Anonymousreply 125June 20, 2019 1:32 PM

it was CHITA rivera!

by Anonymousreply 126June 20, 2019 1:35 PM

[QUOTE] Besides, as we have seen, most Trans don't identify with the gay community, they seem themselves as stick heterosexual rolls as male or female. Usually with a superficial interpolation of what it is to be a man or woman.

But let’s share our acronym and parade with them, and in fact let’s let THEM now steer the direction of the conversation.

by Anonymousreply 127June 20, 2019 1:41 PM

R114 : "All the ignorant, resentful, churlish people on DL can do is say "Fuck Marsha Johnson for claiming this" even though they are told, time and again, year after year, that she never did."

No one here has said... ever. Like typical trans propaganda and abusers, you're trying to twist everything around to paint everything as "hateful", because I read the entire thread, and everyone is saying Marsha never said this. No one has said "fuck Marsha for saying this."

You're a manipulative, homophobic little fuck, that apparently likes hanging here with "bigots". Stop stealing people's history; which includes gays, lesbians, native Americans, intersex people, and so on. We're fucking sick of your shit.

by Anonymousreply 128June 20, 2019 1:48 PM

[quote]There are tons of sites saying these two “trans” activists started Stonewall. Which is a complete fabrication.

Far more than I realized, it seems. A lot of American history gets changed over the generations and apparently this is one such thing. But these changes often get corrected, although that's not a lot of help right now.

Absolutely baffling that neither of them claimed to have "thrown the first brick at Stonewall" yet people who absolutely know better are repeating it.

For what it's worth, Drunk History is wrong on the history at least half the time, so it's not like they did this for "PC" reasons. They did it because they're sloppy and just want a good story.

by Anonymousreply 129June 20, 2019 2:01 PM

The photographic evidence does not support the trans narrative. It was mostly young white men who were dressed in the conventional clothing of the time. That's just what it was.

I've posted this before, but you just KNOW the trans brigade and SJWs would be trying to take full credit for AIDS activism if they could get away with it. ACT UP, etc. This however is impossible since all of that was meticulously documented with photos and video.

by Anonymousreply 130June 20, 2019 2:29 PM

Pose episode 2 made or seem like Act Up was mostly trans and POCs.

by Anonymousreply 131June 20, 2019 2:43 PM

Can you elaborate on that, r131? As r130 points out, Act Up is well documented/photographed and disputes that narrative.

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by Anonymousreply 132June 20, 2019 3:16 PM

That is very interesting, r131. If you repeat a lie often enough (particularly on TV) that it becomes "the truth".

by Anonymousreply 133June 20, 2019 3:19 PM

[quote]Now 100,000,000 TRANS POC have been murdered since this thread started

Heil OP!

by Anonymousreply 134June 20, 2019 3:28 PM

[quote]Pose episode 2 made or seem like Act Up was mostly trans and POCs.

Yet another reason why Ryan Murphy is nothing more than a hack and a sellout.

by Anonymousreply 135June 20, 2019 3:29 PM

I know. I went to a few Act Up meetings.

But Pose episode 2 they go to an act up meeting led by lesbians and most people there are POC.

Then the main characters who are trans POCs are portrayed as the leaders of the St Patrick’s cathedral “die in”

by Anonymousreply 136June 20, 2019 3:30 PM

Plus. bIlly porters chRacter Praytell. She’s a present speech about the govt killing “black and brown and queer people”

1. That phrase “black and brown” was t really used. Back then.

2 most people dying of aids at the time were white gay men

Guess Ryan Murphy doesn’t want to let truth get In the way of his being all woke now

by Anonymousreply 137June 20, 2019 3:32 PM

Yet it was Roland Emmerich who got pilloried for trying to make a pivotal American event in gay history understandable to non-Americans.

by Anonymousreply 138June 20, 2019 3:32 PM

R45 I do too now because the word salad is confusing and also not accurate!

by Anonymousreply 139June 20, 2019 3:34 PM

Trans and their activists ARE a liability to gay rights. It wasn’t justice for trans sex workers of color that effected local SEXUAL ORIENTATION non discrimination policies or domestic partnerships.

It was gay and lesbian assimilationists that argued “we’re just like you and want the same secular, legal rights as you to protect our families.”

Activism played a big role for sure, but it was THOSE arguments that won the war. It was these couples that won in the courts.

The trans movement has not contributed in any way to the benefit of gay and lesbian rights and protections. All they have done is criticize, demand, demean, and steal unearned credit.

by Anonymousreply 140June 20, 2019 3:42 PM

[quote]Guess Ryan Murphy doesn’t want to let truth get In the way of his being all woke now

Everything he does gives me a sick sensation in the pit of my stomach. [italic]Glee[/italic] was so bad that even hateblogging it just became a form of enabling its existence. Now I know why. He’s just another self-hating gay white gentile male throwing the next generation of gay people under the bus so he can get rich. The only gays who get any special privileges are those who are white and not Jewish.

by Anonymousreply 141June 20, 2019 3:43 PM

R136 I've never seen Pose but I did see the documentary about Act Up, and not only did it consist of white gay men and an occasional female, but these were IVY LEAGUE (rich?) gay men. I think even the women were Ivy League students also. I don't recall having seen a POC in there anywhere. So I don't know where Ryan Murphy came up with that nonsense. His shows are typically very fictitious anyway.

by Anonymousreply 142June 20, 2019 5:19 PM

People actually believe this crap, R142, and base their understanding of gay history and politics on it. That what makes it a problem.

by Anonymousreply 143June 20, 2019 6:34 PM

[quote]You are awful, bigoted people who don't give a fuck about women. If you did, you'd be fighting for abortion rights instead of wasting everyone's time with your ridiculous trash.

Now they're threatening me, these awful cheap girls!

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by Anonymousreply 144June 20, 2019 11:44 PM

[quote]You are awful, bigoted people who don't give a fuck about women.

This is NOT Every Woman's Village. Its a GAY website of mostly men discussing issues of interest to gay men. Go back to Hoda in the AM Dear. And dont forget to ware your pussy hat from the march.

by Anonymousreply 145June 21, 2019 5:40 AM

R145, R123 isn’t a woman and nor does he care about women either. His comment was instead suggesting those who query the trans agenda should focus on other women’s issues because disagreeing with anything trans is just sooooo mean, they just wanna pee, etc.

by Anonymousreply 146June 21, 2019 7:35 AM

Ah, another Stonewall thread. Ok.

by Anonymousreply 147June 21, 2019 7:41 AM

Facts: 1: Sylvia has not yet run away from home at the time of the Stonewall Rebellion.

2. Marsha does not appear in any photographs of the second night and may or may not have shown up.

3. Drag queens were not allowed in stonewall.

4. Wearing women's clothes on the streets got you arrested.

5. When the Post called the white male protestors 'drag queens' they sued via the mattachine society.

6. A lesbian threw COINS, not rocks as a protest against payola

7. There was a showgirl there who got hauled off in a police van who was later pretended to be a drag queen, she was a bio fem.

8. Like Woodstock the majority of people who claim to be there were not.

by Anonymousreply 148June 21, 2019 8:23 AM

[quote]And dont forget to ware your pussy hat from the march.

Oh, dear!

by Anonymousreply 149June 21, 2019 11:22 AM

[quote]3. Drag queens were not allowed in stonewall.

Every documentary I’ve seen and book I’ve read indicated there were drag queens at Stonewall that night. Even in pictures you could see them.

The participants whom I’ve seen interviewed said they were limited inside the bar because they brought too much attention, but in small numbers were permitted.

by Anonymousreply 150June 21, 2019 11:24 AM

Back in 1951, Christine Jorgensen's sex reassignment surgery was front page news around the world. People in 1969 were very aware that they could also have that surgery if they wanted it badly enough.

The drag queens and boys dressing femme at Stonewall in 1969 were gay men, not "transgender wannabes". They weren't attempting to "pass" as the opposite gender to their birth sex (and by doing so, conform to conventional female sex roles). No, they were flamboyantly flaunting their difference from straight society. It was a radical act of defiance.

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by Anonymousreply 151June 21, 2019 11:53 AM

Proof R150?

Show us these photos you supposedly have.

I know documentaries have attempted to re-write history but you claim to have photos of the night, let's see them.

by Anonymousreply 152June 21, 2019 12:48 PM

The photos of the first night of riots don't show any drag queens.

by Anonymousreply 153June 21, 2019 1:15 PM

R153, that’s because they were the first to be arrested even before the rioting began. There are some, though.

From history.com

[quote]After midnight on an unseasonably hot Friday night, the Stonewall was packed when eight plainclothes or undercover police officers (six men and two women) entered the bar. In addition to the bar’s employees, they also singled out drag queens and other cross-dressing patrons for arrest. In New York City, “masquerading” as a member of the opposite sex was a crime.

Here’s one getting arrested.

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by Anonymousreply 154June 21, 2019 1:30 PM
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by Anonymousreply 155June 21, 2019 1:31 PM

There were only a handful of drag queens at the riot, according to testimony.

by Anonymousreply 156June 21, 2019 1:57 PM

The photo at r155 is absolutely so not from Stonewall or from 1969 that it makes me doubt whether the photo at r154 is also completely unrelated.

Apparently there were 13 arrests on the Friday night although the (very white, very not in drag) guy shown in the link is the only one whose face is known.

Unfortunately, that website messes things up by falsely calling Stonewall the "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender ("G.L.B.T.") Stonewall Rebellion", even though the author also writes that on the 3rd, 4th and 5th night of the rebellion there " were, however, plenty of signs such as "Gay Power", "Gay Rights", "Gay Marriage" and "Gay Unity"" - i.e. GAY, not trans or anything else, GAY.

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by Anonymousreply 157June 21, 2019 2:10 PM

David Carter's book mentions some drag queens at Stonewall that night: Tammy Novak (arrested but escaped), Tiffany, Spanola Jerry, Yvonne Ritter (who later did transition MTF, but that night was just a boy in woman's clothing - his mother's clothing in fact).

by Anonymousreply 158June 21, 2019 2:11 PM

The one publicly available mugshot (apparently) of one of the 13 arrested on thenight of the Stonewall rebellion.

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by Anonymousreply 159June 21, 2019 2:12 PM

[quote]The photo at [R155] is absolutely so not from Stonewall or from 1969

That photo came from a Pinterest of the “10 best photos of Stonewall,”

[quote]that it makes me doubt whether the photo at [R154] is also completely unrelated.

and that photo came from PBS touting their documentary on Stonewall.

by Anonymousreply 160June 21, 2019 2:19 PM

Not Stonewall, but an old Weegee photo from the 1940’s. I wonder where it was taken.

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by Anonymousreply 161June 21, 2019 2:35 PM

I believe the photos at r154 and r155 are from the Compton's Cafeteria protest in San Francisco in 1966; that event is far more of a transgender event than Stonewall.

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by Anonymousreply 162June 21, 2019 2:39 PM

Clayton, I can’t vouch for the one from Pinterest, but the other one is from PBS on the Stonewall uprising.

by Anonymousreply 163June 21, 2019 2:50 PM

R163 we know that PBS using photos to illustrate stories but there is no evidence that the photo is from Stonewall.

There has been a huge attempt by many parties to re-write history and many participants may be unwitting. The police took the names and ID from 300, those names are on a list you can obtain. NONE of the drag queens ever claiming to be there are on their list with either their real or drag names.

13 were arrested. All of the mug shots show young white men.

by Anonymousreply 164June 21, 2019 4:48 PM

Where are these mug shots?

by Anonymousreply 165June 21, 2019 4:51 PM

R164, I’m only going by the two books I read and one (possibly two, might’ve seen it twice over the years) documentary I saw.

Those interviewed who were there said there were a few—not a lot, not many—drag queens in attendance that night. They said Stonewall would only let a few in so as not to draw too much police attention, since it was illegal, per se, to be in drag.

by Anonymousreply 166June 21, 2019 4:54 PM

R165 they are available for viewing at One Police Plaza, they have a Stonewall archive with the list of names taken as they released them at the bar along with the mug shots of those arrested and a few, (very few) official photos taken on the second night. Any historian, writer, or scholar can request a viewing.

by Anonymousreply 167June 21, 2019 5:20 PM

Woodstock was a hoax. The Moon landing was real, though.

by Anonymousreply 168June 21, 2019 5:23 PM

Thanks, r167.

I don’t know why they limit who can see them, though. They’re either public records or they’re not. Ridiculousness that is the NYPD.

by Anonymousreply 169June 21, 2019 5:30 PM

The mugshots should be put online.

by Anonymousreply 170June 21, 2019 5:30 PM

They do not so much limit as ask for an explanation as to why you want to see them. For whatever reason they are not copies but the original files, and gloves are needed to turn the pages, no oil on the page. I agree they should be online and it is possible they are by now.

by Anonymousreply 171June 21, 2019 5:35 PM

It's kinda weird that the actual 13 who were arrested on the first night aren't known.

by Anonymousreply 172June 22, 2019 1:17 AM

F172 They have been named in a few articles but most ignore them because they were not Trannies of color and do not fit with the historical re-write.

by Anonymousreply 173June 22, 2019 6:53 AM

OK - about police testimony.

This might be a shock to some of you but the police lie too. Not to drag (no pun intended) this off track if you read police reports of raids of gay bars in the early 20th century in London you get descriptions of lots of effeminacy. The reasons the police did that was not necessarily because that was what was going on - it was to help them get convictions. If you said men were dressed as women for example you’d be more likely to get people locked up. In fact the notion that gay men (or women) could ‘pass’ or look just like the average person on the street was what scared the establishment. That’s how the myth of all gay men are effeminate and all lesbians are butch came about. It was a narrative that suited people to paint lesbians and gay men as not-normal, as ‘other’.

I dare say something similar happened in the reporting of Stonewall from ‘official’ sources. If you paint these bars as having ‘obvious’ deviants in it, you can justify your raid. Imagining that some gay men could be just as masculine as the most aggressive NY cop just wouldn’t compute with the bigoted mind. Imagining them as limp-wristed fairies in frocks suits the anti-gay agenda.

However much people find it hard to swallow, the real push for equalities for lesbians and gay men came from people would never be identified by the mainstream of that time as being like that. I don’t mean they were closeted or ashamed, they just lived their lives and loved who they loved. And slowly are surely people realised gays and lesbians were their siblings, their aunts and uncles, their children and they weren’t freakish ‘others’ they were the same as most other people.

by Anonymousreply 174June 22, 2019 11:42 AM

Ah, so it was the Matachine Society who fought at Stonefwall, R174?

The dykes and drags, freaks and faggots led the way.

by Anonymousreply 175June 22, 2019 11:52 AM

Just more mythologizing by R174, in the teeth of evidence.

by Anonymousreply 176June 22, 2019 12:10 PM

R174 is right, police could raid gay bars on the grounds of "men impersonating women" and the suchlike, so they would exaggerate such instances to justify their raids.

All gays were considered freaks by society back then, r175. If you look at the pics of the people actually at the Stonewall in the night of the fightback they do mostly look like regular people. Which gays are, it's our enemies who want to make us out to be freaks.

by Anonymousreply 177June 22, 2019 1:32 PM

R175 / R176 - no you misunderstand the point I'm making. It's absolutely the 'dykes drags fags and freaks' who'd be SEEN to be leading things because they were visible. I'm saying the establishment will always be able to dismiss such people as freaks and ignore them. I'm all for people living and expressing themselves however they want to but it's the people who infiltrate the mainstream who will change things, not the 'freaks'.

Same thing happens when the mainstream media cover pride events. They photograph the 'freaks' because they are the exception to the norm. Now, to get back on point, if two black drag queens had really been leading things at the Stonewall riots their photos would be everywhere because they would have been the freakiest of the freaks.

Everyone who writes history has an agenda, you need to probe and interrogate;. As a wise man once said never believe what you read, only what you know.

by Anonymousreply 178June 22, 2019 2:07 PM

[Quote]However much people find it hard to swallow, the real push for equalities for lesbians and gay men came from people would never be identified by the mainstream of that time as being like that.

R174 has a point, r175 & r176. During the early protests for gay rights in the mid-1960s, the dress code was for the men to wear suits, and the women to wear dresses or skirts. The subliminal message conveyed was "we're no different than you; we even look like you."

This message was important at the time, because the typical stereotype of gays was that of highly effeminate men and overly masculine women, who always dressed in garments meant for the opposite gender. That stereotype had to be challenged, because it certainly wasn't completely true.

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by Anonymousreply 179June 22, 2019 4:08 PM

[QUOTE] The dykes and drags, freaks and faggots led the way.

Yes, and none of them were Trans

by Anonymousreply 180June 22, 2019 4:14 PM

R179 how ridiculous to think that would make people accept them more?!?

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by Anonymousreply 181June 22, 2019 4:15 PM

[quote] The mugshots should be put online.

Were these arrestees convicted of anything? Why would you want to publish mere arrestees? To prove some point? They should have been sealed or expunged. Unless they give permission.

These are historical records. Of course they limit their actual viewing to serious requests. They do the same at the Library of Congress and most libraries and museums. Putting them online is another matter. But still internet publication can be a thorny matter depending on the subject matter. There are privacy concerns, concerns regarding taking things out of context which historical preservationists would want to avoid, funding, etc.

by Anonymousreply 182June 22, 2019 4:26 PM

These Stonewall threads remind me of Grey Gardens. The Maysle brothers talked about how Big Edie and Little Edie would have the same dramatic conversations, feuding over the same bullshit, each and every day. It was how they entertained each other.

by Anonymousreply 183June 22, 2019 5:42 PM

Except that the Stonewall revisionism is designed to erase gays out of their own movement, by the people TQA2S +++ who've taken it over, R183

by Anonymousreply 184June 22, 2019 7:33 PM

I agree, R179. I was just making the point that we shouldn't homogenize the people who rioted outside Stonewall. We were all in it together: dykes and drags, freaks and faggots.

I think R174's point is valid, about the normalising of gay people by being more visible to family, friends and neighbours, and it ultimately is what won the battle for acceptance in the long run.

by Anonymousreply 185June 22, 2019 9:56 PM

Sorry, I should have signed that R175.

by Anonymousreply 186June 22, 2019 9:57 PM

Facts are facts and the tranny revisionists hate facts.

by Anonymousreply 187June 24, 2019 10:23 AM

Op can you please repost the link?

by Anonymousreply 188June 24, 2019 10:34 AM

[quote]Are there traditional male and female bagels, too?

Your transphobia is erasing us!

by Anonymousreply 189June 24, 2019 12:22 PM

Here you go, R188.

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by Anonymousreply 190June 24, 2019 1:27 PM

The mugshot at r159 is NOT verified as being in connection with the Stonewall arrests. The person who has put out that story and claims it is his mugshot is Williamson Henderson, founder of the Stonewall Veterans Association. However, like many people identifying as participants, his claims are dubious at best. Most of these people, like Henderson and Miss Major, are just opportunists looking to cash in.

Notice there’s nothing in the mugshot that identifies the guy’s name, the date it was taken, nothing. Just “NYC Police”.

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by Anonymousreply 191June 24, 2019 10:26 PM

The photo at r154 is not from the Stonewall riots, regardless that it was used in the PBS documentary. The photo is one of the 44 participants arrested at the National Variety Artists Exotic Carnival and Ball NYC in October 1962. Here is the Getty Images source for it.

Anyone thinking heavy rain coats and long sleeves would be worn in the sweltering June ‘69 heat is an idiot. Plus the cops in the Stonewall photos are all in short sleeves. Clearly this pic is from a different event altogether.

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by Anonymousreply 192June 24, 2019 10:35 PM

Long sleeves at the Stonewall Riots. This picture is authentic.

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by Anonymousreply 193June 24, 2019 11:30 PM

I’m seeing two uniformed officers in short sleeves and a detective in a sports jacket. Not sure what your point is r193 and no one disputes that NY Daily News pic isn’t the real deal.

by Anonymousreply 194June 25, 2019 12:10 AM

The rioters, r194. Long sleeves. Here's another one of rioters in long sleeves.

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by Anonymousreply 195June 25, 2019 12:28 AM

I wish the gay community would have the nerve to do what 99% of trans “Women” will not do: cut it off! Get that fucking “t” off our name. Our island of broken toys mentality has run its course. Same sex attraction (gay) and gender confusion/non conforming are not the same issue and should not be attached. Hoe progressives jumped behind this trans agenda and the very real harm it does to women is beyond me.

by Anonymousreply 196June 25, 2019 12:31 AM

Snip snip

by Anonymousreply 197June 25, 2019 3:15 PM

To celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots, I've turned Marsha's eyewitness account about Stonewall into a dance track. It's almost like being there!

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by Anonymousreply 198June 29, 2019 3:43 AM

That's fabulous, Hugo!

by Anonymousreply 199June 29, 2019 10:36 AM

There are no mugshots available from the night of the riots. There's almost no police paperwork at all except one short list of names of a few of the people arrested.

One of the survivors of the riots recently interviewed said what we've known for years: the street kids, trans included, were taken by cops in the first wave.

The trans (whether crossdresser, transvestite, whatever) community was there that night, they however probably were not there when the riot began, through no fault of their own.

Both the anti-trans and the current revisionist history groups are changing the details to prove their case. Both sides need to start telling the truth instead.

by Anonymousreply 200June 29, 2019 10:52 AM

It's not up to us (G&L) any longer, r196. They own us. It's up to them to excise G&L from The Initialization, and for reasons incomprehensible to those of us with any sense of logic or language, they refuse to do so.

Our theme song now should be:

"Set me free, why don't you babe.

Get outa my life, why don't you babe."

by Anonymousreply 201June 29, 2019 11:03 AM

Very cool, r198 — thanks! I hope your track goes viral 💜❤️🧡💛💚💙

by Anonymousreply 202June 29, 2019 1:19 PM

You offer one alleged source and no link, R200. Not saying it isn't true, but evidence would be an asset.

by Anonymousreply 203June 29, 2019 1:21 PM

The problem is the Trans are claiming Marsha, when she always considered herself a man.

A butch lesbian was the one that ignited the riot.

by Anonymousreply 204June 29, 2019 1:54 PM

"It’s been reported that while the NYPD began escorting those arrested out of the bar a scuffle broke out when a lesbian in handcuffs was escorted from the door of the bar to the waiting police wagon. She escaped repeatedly and fought with four of the police, swearing and shouting, for about ten minutes. She had been hit on the head by an officer with a baton for, as one witness claimed for complaining that her handcuffs were too tight. Bystanders recalled that the woman, whose identity remains unknown, (some attribute it to lesbian cross-dresser Stormé DeLarverie) sparked the crowd to fight when she looked at bystanders and shouted, “Why don’t you guys do something?” When an officer picked her up and heaved her into the back of the paddy wagon the crowd went “berserk”:

It was at that moment that the scene became explosive and the fight for our rights and freedoms.

The crowd outside the Stonewall Inn started to push back at the police who tried to restrain them, the police fought back and knocked a few people down. It’s rumored that Storme De Laverie, a lesbian crossdresser was observed throwing the first punch after being pushed around by a policeman which incited bystanders even more."

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by Anonymousreply 205June 29, 2019 1:57 PM

[quote]It's up to them to excise G&L from The Initialization, and for reasons incomprehensible to those of us with any sense of logic or language, they refuse to do so.

It'$ not $o difficult to under$tand why they refu$e to cut u$ loo$e.

by Anonymousreply 206June 29, 2019 2:03 PM

But they have all the $$$ they need coming in from the medical/pharmaceutical indu$$$try, don't they?

by Anonymousreply 207June 29, 2019 6:23 PM

On the lasting impact of Stonewall........

[quote]Charlotte Clymer, 32, Gay/Queer/Lesbian, Press Secretary for the Human Rights Campaign: Honestly, I’m not sure I feel entirely comfortable anywhere as an LGBTQ person. We live in an era of unprecedented attacks by our government on our community, which enables cultural shaming, violence, and discrimination. It’s why it’s so important to fight back and be heard. We need to take up space today for other LGBTQ people to feel safe tomorrow.

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by Anonymousreply 208June 29, 2019 8:06 PM

Who cares, OP? Jesus you're a small minded bitch.

It's 50 years since Stonewall and we have an administration who would throw us under a moving train just to make Mike Pence and Mother happy for a day.

Women are losing their reproductive rights.

Our treatment of asylum seekers at our southern border is the shame of the nation.

Wake up, dummy.

by Anonymousreply 209June 29, 2019 8:10 PM

Women are losing lots of things thanks to the trannies, r209.

By the way, you do realise you're being transphobic by saying "Women are losing their reproductive rights" because that is to define "woman" as a person born with a womb, when we all know that some women don't have wombs, uteruses and fallopian tubes and they have penises instead.

by Anonymousreply 210June 29, 2019 8:21 PM

Well, now that Stonewall 50 celebrations are being mopped up on the streets of New York, perhaps this myth-making will subside, and the truth will come out that Ivanka Trump started it all!

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by Anonymousreply 211July 2, 2019 6:35 AM

I already had r209 blocked....

by Anonymousreply 212July 2, 2019 7:29 PM

I love how the VERY few men in drag from Stonewall photos are ALL WHITE, as is 98% of the crowd, lol.

The whole transtapo movement will stop at NOTHING to perpetuate this foolish and insulting "trans women of color" bullshit.

r70, Rep. Sharice Davis is an out lesbian, I don't think she's homophobic, just gleefully uninformed about herstory!!

by Anonymousreply 213July 2, 2019 8:53 PM
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