Judy Garland - Fifty Years Since Her Death

God needed another angel. That's the only explanation...

My current favorite Judy track:

I’m so glad that fucking bitch is gone. Fuck you OP.

MARY r1.

Yes, OP, since Garland's death is intimately intertwined with the Stonewall Riots and the birth of Pride, I'm sure "many" will be remembering her this month.

I don't understand why, but Judy's somehow intertwined and wrapped up with my gayness. I was born one year after her death.

It must be the greatly anticipated, yearly airings of The Wizard of Oz. I'm guessing my dad was none too happy when I asked for Carnegie Hall for Christmas when I was 14.

Let's really commemorate the 50th anniversary of her death. One way or another, I doubt too many people will be remembering her on the 100th.

I'm going to have a quiet day, softly keening under my veil.

God needed another junkie.

Today would've been my mom's 98th birthday. She made it a lot farther than Judy did -- 93.

Did she die on a Saturday?

Because I remember sitting on the steps on a Sunday waiting for mom to come out so we could go to church. My dad was reading the morning paper.

DAD: "Oh, look. Judy Garland died."

ME: "Who is that?"

DAD: "She played the little girl in the Wizard of Oz."

ME: "How did she die?"

DAD: "On a toilet. Full of drugs."

ME: "What are drugs?"

DAD: "Candies adults take."

ME: "That sounds great!"

A friend and I were in Paris (our first time there) and we had just had lunch and then picked up International Herald Tribune and there was that front page story that she had died in London. Bonjour, Tristesse, indeed!

I just found out she's been moved to Hollywood. I'ma visit her grave on the day.

Poor Judy. RIP.

She lives on, though, to mess with telemarketers.

Ninety SHEVEN???

*blows kisses to Lizsha at r14*

Didn't her father used to give blow jobs to teenage boys?

R16 Good things come in small packages.

And Papa was a good thing!

[quote] I am so old, I fart Judy Garland tunes.

Ha! Ha! Ha! I'll say!

We were just shocked she outlived Dorothy

[quote]God needed another angel. That's the only explanation...

Or she drank and drugged herself to multi-organ failure.

I was 5 and remember waking up & her music was on the radio & my mom was sad. I asked why and she said the girl in The Wizard of Oz had just died.

I think they aired Oz on tv that night or soon after in tribute because I have pretty string memories of watching it on a summer night instead of the usual winter one - but I could be just conflating memories.

I think this is fiction, but it's a great, quick read.

R22 I remember reading that years ago. Clever story.

[quote]I think this is fiction, but it's a great, quick read.

It may be good but it ain't quick.

The same age as Doris Day, who just died at 97.

A THOUSAND Judys!

Slept with Bettie Page and Kate Hepburn (who also slept with Page).

At least she looked 97 when she died.

Too soon, OP! Tooooo sooooooooooooooooooon!

[quote]I'm sure many will be remembering her this month.

I'm not so sure, but maybe dementia rates are lower in your state.

R29 I do SO love the Princess Diana Scream, especially the Slo Mo.

What a gift! LOL

MARY!

JUDY!

Molested I was.

Mean Sissy and Drunk Sissy are fighting about Momma again.

Casket handles -- wasn't that a classic "Two Ronnies" sketch?

I prey for Judy!

I wanted to collect all her stuff so badly when these box sets came out. I had all of these:

1991 - The One and Only ( 3 CDs)

1994 - The Complete Decca Masters ( 4 CDs)

1998 - Judy ( 4 CDs/VHS cassette)

you old queens need a life, she was a washed up melodramatic junkie who caused all her own problems

r38 yep, her mother, Louis B. Mayer, Sid Luft and her hanger-ons had NOTHING to do with her problems.

R39 preach. Poor thing never stood a chance. She was being given drugs as a teen by MGM. I think I’ll give her a pass for being a hot mess.

[quote]Poor thing never stood a chance. She was being given drugs as a teen by MGM. I think I’ll give her a pass for being a hot mess.

Yes, that's why everyone who worked at MGM ended up dead on a toilet, shitting barbiturate capsules.

She gave us Liza!

r42 obviously not everyone who works there will turn out just like Judy. Mikey Rooney lived to be really old but he had similar substance abuse problems and was overworked and underpaid. Judy and Mikey were also CHILD actors and stayed with MGM into adulthood. You can't compare to adult MGM stars.

She looked 97 when she died.

I saw Judy Garland from a distance in 1961. Memorable

By late 1967, when I saw Judy again, a bit closer, she was still memorable. But, her singing voice was mostly gone.

If you don't want to remember her this month, throw this on for July 4th. It is the absolute best and most moving version of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, I have ever heard. She did it in tribute to President Kennedy, who was assassinated shortly before. I discovered it after 9/11, when I was asked to find patriotic songs to play over the public address system at my high school, for a few weeks after the attacks. One morning I played this and Mahalia Jackson's We Shall Overcome.

Garland sang "Battle Hymn of Republic" after 1963 with her younger children, Lorna and Joe on stage.

Perhaps the element of surprise was gone by then. CBS demanded she not sing Battle Hymn on her weekly Sunday night variety show in 1963. She sang it on her own

R47 yes, that's what R46 posted. CBS allowed her to perform it, but she was not allowed to say on camera that it was to honor JFK.

MARY!

MARY!

MARY!

"Wouldn't have to be too tall...." ****sobs****

Wow. Fried beyond reach and yet still...what a life force.

Wow - thx R50. Makes me appreciate how deep into addiction she was. A shame and inevitable - but shocking to see in the age of PR management,

A friend and I watched a documentary about her life the other night and he asked "Why was her life so turbulent and traumatic? She didn't have a particularly traumatic childhood." And I honestly couldn't answer. Sure, the pills did a number on her nervous system and overall health, eventually. But she was not particularly poor as a child. She had a stage mother, yes, but there was no evidence of abuse. A lot of stars had stage mothers but did not end up screwed up wrecks. The drugs were meant to keep her awake or put her to sleep, they didn't affect her ability to make coherent decisions and discern how to deal with money. MGM made her a huge star. She always acted like she was a victim of MGM because of the drugs but MOST of the stable of stars used them. She was and remains perhaps the greatest talent of the 20th century (and so far the 21st) but it really does seem that she brought a lot of her problems on herself. For whatever reason. What MADE her so "tragic?" SHE did.

^^^totally agree. It seems she did bring a lot of it on herself, she had a victim mentality and relied on pity a lot. I have a feeling she may have been manic depressive which could explains things however.

I think as with all addictions, some of it is personal responsibility. But certainly, some of it IS the conditioning Judy had as a child and young adult. Her mother has at least some role to play, as does the studio.

The thing that strikes me about Judy, watching things like the Cavett show and any of her performances, is this: her emotions were just below the surface and when she performed or went onto a talk show, those emotions and the way she expressed them were what everyone loved about her. LOVED.

But I think it's very hard to modulate any of that. You can't open a raw nerve and have thousands applauding for you, and then turn around and put it in a drawer. And yet when an audience applauds and then turns around and leaves, that's what happened.

I think she just never learned a lot of those emotional skills about how to deal with loss, deal with emotions, etc. partly because that's how she made her money, mining those emotions. And it eventually wore her out.

I think her problem was she was bipolar.

R55 That may be part of it. But I think she's one of the strongest cases ever for conditioning being at fault.

She was never what I would call "abused" exactly. Probably the most detrimental thing to happen to her was getting involved in show business at such an early age. She never really had a childhood. She was put on contract at MGM at 13 years old. She was never forced or pushed into performing. She WANTED that; she was a ham from the time she was a toddler and it was her dream to be a famous singer/movie star, which she achieved due to her talent and luck. But in her case, playing all these make believe young girls onscreen stunted her emotional growth. And being a pampered movie star didn't make her any more mature, either. As for the drug addiction...well, everybody took pills to lose weight and boost energy and sleep. But she had a constitution that seemed to require a never ending need for pills. Plenty of movie stars took pills, but very few of them became hopeless drug addicts, the way Garland did.

Other child stars self destructed, but a lot of them came out of the unreal experience of stardom relatively unscathed. In Judy's case I think mental illness played a large part, too. She was probably bi-polar. Poor Judy, she really was a mess. But she never really did anything to make herself better. All she did was blame everybody else for her troubles (her mother, Louis B. Mayer, MGM, Sid Luft). And take more pills.

At least we can take solace in the fact that she is enjoying eternal life with the Lord.

r52 Well he father became ill and died rather suddenly when she was 13. I would say that's pretty traumatic, especially since she just kept on working after it happened. No real time to fully grieve.

The interesting thing about Judy, is that a lot of the child stars that turn out screwed up, are the ones that want to but can't maintain their stardom as adults, but Judy didn't have that problem. She went from child star to adult star without any problem. Then you had the fact that once the annual showings of The Wizard of Oz started in the late 1950s she had the luxury of capturing new fans as children. It is always funny to me that Judy is seen as only a gay icon, because for many boys, especially in the years where the yearly broadcast of Oz was a major event, Judy was one of their first movie star crushes. I hate to say it because it sounds creepy now, but I remember watching it as a kid and talking with my friends at school, and all us boys were talking about how big her tits were next to the girls we knew.

Quite funny clip of The Jack Paar Show with Judy Garland taking a few swipes at Marlene Dietrich.

r60 because most child stars just have charm and cuteness. Judy had boatloads of talent to sustain her.

R62 That's what makes her so interesting, so much talent, but then she wasted it by getting wasted.

[quote]At least we can take solace in the fact that she is enjoying eternal life with the Lord.

That is hilarious.

Sometimes I think certain people have too much talent and they burn themselves out. Also Callas and Presley. Streisand should have but she slid comfortably into schlock having no artistic integrity whatsoever so there was nothing to sustain.

r54: Thats is an extremely astute observation. Thank you for that.

R65 I think Elvis' problem was being forced into the Army and then crappy Hollywood movies during a time that he should have in his prime. He was able to recapture the magic in the 68 Comeback Special, but he was never able to break free of Col. Tom Parker.

When was Judy at her absolute prime?

The worst thing that happened to Elvis Presley's career was his manager "Colonel" Tom Parker, a greedy, soulless, huckster. Elvis going into the Army, marrying Pricilla, doing all those godawful movies...all of this was Parker's idea. He wanted Elvis's comeback tv special to be a Christmas show, with Elvis singing sappy Christmas songs. Thank God THAT didn't happen. But all Parker cared about was making money; he wanted Elvis to do anything he thought would make money. Elvis because a joke because of him. Can you imagine what's Elvis Presley's career would have been like if he'd had a GOOD manager? If he'd had the sense to kick Parker to the curb and get better management? It's a testament to Elvis's talent that he achieved as much as he did, considering how truly bad his manager was.

[quote] Streisand should have but she slid comfortably into schlock having no artistic integrity whatsoever so there was nothing to sustain.

Streisand was much more talented that Judy. But, yes, Streisand did record a lot of schlock. But nothing near as dreadful as "Swanee" and the other garbage Judy recorded.

Streisand still has some great recordings, but Judy only has Carnegie Hall. Nobody listens to the other records she made because they are rubbish.

And Streisand, for all her faults and mistakes, gets credit for not being a junkie loser.

I think it's been discussed here before but you can tell that until around 1964-65 she was still relatively function. When you see her after that, especially from 1967 on, you can tell something has broken inside.

Judy Garland was a ham.

Her recordings are unlistenable to modern ears.

Speak for yourself, Mary.

R69 Also, because Parker was an illegal immigrant he kept Elvis from touring abroad. He could have really made bank in Europe. He was offered a million dollars to do one week of shows at the London Palladium.

And, Elvis wasn't opposed to doing films he just wanted to do better ones. His early films before the Army were markedly better than the ones after. Sammy Davis Jr. says that he and Elvis were in contention for The Defiant Ones, in the roles that went to Tony Curtis and Sidney Poitier, but Parker was against it. Also, towards the end of his life Streisand wanted him to play opposite her in A Star is Born, which would have been great, but again Parker was against it.

I think Judy Garland was a very talented film actress, but I can't stand listening to her recordings of songs.

It's all so overwrought.

R75 I actually like when people expressed emotions in their songs.

r70 When Streisand dies, likely only boomers and theater gays will care. Judy will always be Dorothy from Wizard of Oz, she has been canonized in American culture, film and music. And even though Judy had her unattractive moments, she was never hideous looking like Barbra.

[quote]And even though Judy had her unattractive moments, she was never hideous looking like Barbra.

Sure, Jan.

Streisand was a MUCH better singer than Garland.

But, ultimately, nobody will give a shit.

They will both be mostly forgotten and just footnotes in history.

Times goes on, and the stars old people treasure are forgotten.

r78 Judy looks like a solid 7 there, compared to this wench:

"Times goes on, and the stars old people treasure are forgotten."

You're retarded. Exceptional talent never goes out of style.

[quote]Exceptional talent never goes out of style.

That's adorable.

Nobody -- except old queens -- listens to Judy Garland records.

And even they only listen to her Carnaigne Hall CD because she was never a popular recording artist.

Judy Garland is well before my time, but I kept hearing great things about her.

So I bought the Decca box set as an introduction to her.

She has talent, but she's a big ham. I couldn't make it through all 4 CDs.

R79 Garland will never be forgotten because The Wizard of Oz, will never be forgotten. Therefore she will always be remembered and able to attract new fans in a way that Streisand can't because she has never made a movie that will stand the test of time and become a beloved part of the culture.

r85 excuse you, but hip millennials such as myself love Barbra and will never forget her performance in Funny Girl. All the cool young people I know can name at least 3 Barbra movies or songs! And not all these people are involved in theatre or gay, I swear!

[quote]Garland will never be forgotten because The Wizard of Oz, will never be forgotten.

That's sweet. And really stupid.

All you old queens who remember "The Wizard of Oz" being a big TV event every year are living in the past.

People don't watch network TV.

The Wizard of Oz is just another old, forgotten movie to kids nowadays.

I know it is difficult to realize that what you treasured as a youth doesn't matter, but time marches on.

r88 people watch TV on demand and streaming and that often includes older movies like, gasp, The Wizard of Oz- which has basically become a holiday movie.

Well Sound of Music seems to be as well known and popular as it ever was so I guess Wizard Of Oz will be as well. Don't know if it will always be true but it has been so up until this point.

And in case you didn't know there once was a composer and his name was George Gershwin. You might want to look him up. His music was once enormously popular way back in the 20th century.

Swannee though you mighty consider it lousy was the most successful song he ever wrote.

R54 very well put.

"The Wizard of Oz is just another old, forgotten movie to kids nowadays."

"The Wizard of Oz" is still shown in movies theaters as a special event and audiences still go out to see it. It's a classic movie that continues to generate fans. I know you're stupid, but to say that TWOZ is "forgotten" is REALLY stupid. You've got to be an idiot troll trying to get a rise out of people or profoundly mentally retarded.

R92 Exactly, and it remains one of the first films people show their children along with Disney films.

Yes, The Wizard of Oz is still an important film.

I'm not going to waste time arguing with old people who can't understand that the world moves on.

Thinking Judy fucking Garland still matters is when Datalounge really shows its age.

Judy Garland is like Buster Keaton. A very talented person in movies who nobody under 60 remembers.

96 comments and yet no one has asked the million dollar question......did her pussy stink?

Love it when poppinjays like R88 tell people what's important. So magnanimous!

Here's the infamous "What's My Line" episode where Arlene says they were sure Judy was so "out of it," that she wouldn't make it on air that night.

Bonus: Sue Oakland.

Boring. Sad. Fuggo. Enough already

Even Frank said Judy will never be forgotten. She was beyond magnificent.

She was out of it R99. When was she not? I have two nephews and three nieces. They range in age from 14 to 29. None of them know who Judy Garland is and only two of them remember watching the Wizard of Oz. She's not remembered.

Liza, Bette and Streisand are unknown to people under 60. Who in the fuck remembers that nervous wreck with the dilated pupils and mile wide vibrato, Judy G? Her voice is warm but very brawling and bawling to modern ears. Her very young voice was quite pretty, but I would think she'd evoke laughter in her later performances.

50 years is a long time to be dead. Longer than most people have been alive. Me included.

R102, thanks. ENOUGH PLEASE

She was pathetic.

Gay men and their weird fascination for women. Why is it?

Sad. Below average looking. Nutcase. Had her 15 minutes. RIP

NO, R33, I was molested.

Take et eashee, R102, honey

You've got drool all oveah your schinn.

Take one of my pillsh, sweetie, and here'shs shome Vodka

Who doeshn't know who Hermione Gingold is?

Her only movies I like, are because of her co-stars. Gene Kelly is HOT AF in the pirate, and Natalie Wood is adorable in her bunny costume when she gets lost in the dark and cries her heart out in miracle in St Louis. I don't like HER in either.

Fun to block all the Judy naysayers, since they are obviously people of no discernment, thus of no interest to me.

Firstly you can not compare Garland and Streisand’s careers in anyway. Barbra Streisand chose to have her career as a young adult. Judy Garland was thrust out on a stage by her Mother and was a global star by the time she was 16/7. But Garland never had any control over her career, up until she died everything she did was thrust upon her by others. Streisand has always controlled everything she did.

Also, it’s complete rubbish to say Garland is forgotten. Whilst is seems outrageous to say, I’ve always felt the ‘gay icon’ status made her seem marginalised to just one demographic. This isn’t true.

Judy Garland holds places in both film and movie history and she will be observed and looked back upon for hundreds of years to come. She resides with a set of people like Monroe, Sinatra, Presley whom history will discuss as we now talk about classical musicians and writers.

No she won't. The only classic female stars who will be remembered, and only for a few decades more are Monroe, for the still pictures and the aura, Leigh for GWTW, and perhaps A . Hepburn, for the style, and even, she 's not all that relevant anymore. That's it. Oh and perhaps Bacall, whose beauty is standing the test of time, but as an image, not an actress. How many silent stars are remembered today ? In there era they were EVERYTHING

[quote]I'm sure many will be remembering her this month.

Only if you're a fucking MARY!

R113. Lauren Bacall will be remembered about Judy Garland? Bacall wasn’t even remembered when she was alive. She used to go bitch and moan if people didn’t recognise her.

R115 I mean as an image. You can put her on the cover of a book and people will think ' classic Hollywood ' or ' thriller'. Without knowing her name

I did like The Wizard of Oz and that's that...I'm 20

One, lots of people remember her and her music.

Two, we hardly need to take notes on cultural relevance from people who think Britney, Xtina and/or Kesha have it.

Who in the hell are these moronic trolls dissing the great Garland? She was perhaps the greatest talent of the 20th century. A hot mess, yes. Of course. But the talent cannot be denied and will not be forgotten. I have always said that her connection to gay men (of an old generation mostly gone) has marginalized her a bit. She was so so much more than a gay icon for men who were ostracized and who were looking for their own "over the rainbow" in a pre-Stonewall era.

Sad semi talented alcoholic junkie. Taylor Swift is a million times the better role model. Garland films are unwatchable , she sings like a dying whale. Pass

Remember when she said the munchkins looked up her dress then had an orgy

R121 The Munchkins used to sleaze all over her when she was 16.

I think this clip sums her up. They worked her to the bone and got rich off of her. She had nothing left to give at the end.

I like blue.

Oh, Mama hated those Munchkins...

R119 some years ago I made a conscious effort to put aside the awareness of the gay connection, while listening to her. The sheer brilliance of her work was stunning. Absolute musicality.

R126. There is an active Madonna thread on here at the moment, regarding her appearance on Graham Norton. Watch Madonna’s plain yogurt persona on Graham Norton then watch some of Judy Garland’s Jack Paar interviews. Not only could she sing, she was an awesome interviewee.

Howdy neighbor, Happy Harvest!

(I like how at about 1:33 into the clip, Judy practically shouts at the people to have a Happy fucking harvest and then nearly runs the lady over in front of her with the tractor)

Judy still makes me dance with my vacuum cleaner. Utter joy.

Judy looking beautiful and radiant (and a bit like Kylie Minogue imo) in this big dance number

R130 Weirdly I’ve always used to think Kylie Minogue was like a young Judy Garland. Strange that now Minogue is 4 years older than Garland was when she died.

No-one under 40 has any idea who she was.

[quote]and Natalie Wood is adorable in her bunny costume when she gets lost in the dark and cries her heart out in miracle in St Louis.

0.5 out of 10.

I agree with the previous posters. Her films are only good when her partners are good. Natalie Wood steals every scene where they're together in "Miracle in St-Louis".

Their loss, R132

Yes Miracle in St Louis wasn’t one of Judy’s best films. Her pairing with Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast is Born is equally weak.

"Miracle in St. Louis" was so bad that its entire existence has been scrubbed from public memory.

R130 that yellow dress is so striking amid the black suits. She was pregnant at the time and people on the set were joking about the song title in that regard. At the very end, when she ascends to the platform, in longshot, it's very quickly after she disappears from view behind the dancers. I've wondered if it's a double.

R136 are you drunk ?

Seems longer. Judy already had a death sentence having severely damaged her liver. New sleeping pills triggered the liver failure in this instance, but she would've been dead within a year anyway. We had her as long as we were ever going to.

[quote]Also, it’s complete rubbish to say Garland is forgotten. Whilst is seems outrageous to say,

People who use "whilst" are notorious for having their finger on the pulse of current youth culture.

Miracle in St-Louis is a classic. Natalie broke her wrist while filming that scene . She swallowed so much water from the rain machine that she almost drowned. Hence her lifelong terror of water

[quote] Natalie broke her wrist while filming that scene .

And her cunt stage mother wouldn't let her get any help for it, fearing Natalie would be fired. So the wrist healed badly, resulting in a bump that mortified Natalie the rest of her life. That's why she always wore big bracelets to hide it.

Judy would yell swear words in Russian at Natalie to get her to cry on cue.

I've read annual royalties from Judy's estate generate about 200k which is paltry. But there's been no effort to license Judy's image or create products around her name and image that could generate a great deal more It seems odd Liza and Lorna haven't taken advantage of this opportunity to generate more income

Correct R143. R144 what's your source ? I never heard that Judy spoke russian, and in that pic taken years after the shooting, they're having dinner together. But maybe Natalie didn't remember, or understood that it was to her benefit.

Although many people knew Judy was a gay icon, it was not in print until 1967. Time Magazine included the gay mention in a review of Judy at the Palace.

I love "Miracle in St-Louis". It's my one of my favourite Christmas movies, and I love both Judy and Natalie in it.

Wasn’t Miracle in St. Louis the one where Lindbergh landed the plane in the river?

Garland singing to Natalie Wood - Do They Know It's Christmas? from Miracle in St-Louis always chokes me up. I wonder if Judy knew?

The Spirit of St Louis is the one where Natalie is in the yellow dress and becomes hysterical and Judy slaps her. Then Jimmy Stewart passes out and Judy has to land the plane herself much to the joy of the cheering crowds at Le Bourget to whom when she steps out of the plane she sings a medley from Gay Purree.

I need to go back and watch The Miracle in St. Louis again. If I can find a copy?

This must have been some show! Judy & Diana?

For the person asking about Judy's childhood, her parents had a terrible marriage. Her father was gay, or at least a very gay-leaning bisexual, and her mother knew it. He loved to chase young men, and he wasn't discreet about it. That got them run out of Grand Rapids, where Judy was born. Then they moved to Lancaster, a town about 60 miles from LA, and Judy's frustrated mother poured her energies into the girls' stage careers AND into an affair with a neighbor, a man Judy grew to despise. Judy's father started chasing young men again, and the Gumms were essentially run out of ANOTHER town. Only by this time, Judy was just on the verge of getting signed by MGM, so they were leaving, anyway. But that still left Judy the family's primary breadwinner at the age of 13.

Her father suddenly died 7 weeks after Judy signed with MGM. It was the Tiffany of studios, but it controlled every aspect of Judy's life, including her weight. She was constantly called fat when she was really just a pudgy, growing teenager working enormously hard. Instead of giving her a sensible diet, they gave her Dexedrine. Then her mother married the hated neighbor, giving 16-year-old Judy a stepfather making her life miserable, even while she was still supporting the family. The man she was in love with, Artie Shaw, eloped with Judy's best frenemy, Lana Turner, and told Judy she'd always be a sister to him. AND, between 1937 and 1940, Judy made 10 films back-to-back.

No wonder she was burned out and neurotic by the age of 18 and only got worse as she got older. She didn't have any kind of stable foundation to build on.

Is she STILL in that shit business?!

Jack Paar talked about spending an entire day with Judy Garland (likely more like several days). She was about to lose her house; Elvis Presley told her she a great star; Paar's wife and some friends joined them for dinner; Jack Paar could not get rid of Judy; Judy saw an appointment building that looked familiar and opened the car door for her; Past heard her yelling for Sid Luft, Judy: " Sid, I know you in there."

"I have two nephews and three nieces. They range in age from 14 to 29. None of them know who Judy Garland is and only two of them remember watching the Wizard of Oz. She's not remembered."

I get the feeling that your nephews and nieces are culturally illiterate. They must be poorly parented. And just because your dimwit nieces and nephews aren't familiar with her that doesn't mean she's "not remembered." Judy Garland is considered one of the great Hollywood icons. If you don't know THAT, then you must really be stupid.

^Sadly delusional eldereldergay.

I loved her in The MIracle Worker of Saint Louis

Sadly delusional ignorant twat at R158.

R157 That is your fault, then. I bought everyone of my cousin's children a Wizard of Oz DVD for their second birthday. Everyone of them have told me as they age that they continue to watch it at least once every year.

Whats with all the trolls on this thread? Thank you for your thoughtful post, r154

r154 is decidedly NOT a troll!

We all had The Wizard of OZ as one of many DVDs or cassettes as children. Only two people in my family ever wanted to watch it. The effects are Sesame street quality. Monkeys on wires, oh my. Halloween costumes of a lion and tin man. A 35 year old tween girl? The Wiz is a better movie to be honest.

Gays are the standard bearers for the performing arts of any era. What was culturally important and popular in an era is remembered for the most part by gay men. Bing Crosby and Al Jolson are remembered but there isn't a whole lot of affection for their performances besides curiosity.

Bob Hope and Johnny Carson who were giants when I was a boy are slowly but definitely being forgotten. Also the icons of Bogart an Dean were huge. Where are they now?

Bob Hope was pretty much forgotten before he died.

[quote]The Wiz is a better movie to be honest.

Oh, honey . . . the Wiz isn't better than Mrs Patrick Campbell's scat VHS movies.

R165 Bing Crosby is not nor will ever be forgotten, because of his Christmas catalog. His Christmas records still return to the charts annually. He just went to #7 on the Holiday album charts in January of this year and had two top 40 songs on the On-Demand Streaming Songs.

There's an excellent novel, called "Was," by Geoff Ryman. It interweaves three stories: Garland, young Dorothy Gale, and a gay man with AIDS, c. 1990. It's very moving.

When Tootie was run over by the trolley in "Miracle in St. Louis", I cried.

Judy was so good as Jo in "Little Women in St. Louis"! And a real revelation was Lucille Bremer as Amy! So clever the way she serves tea while dancing to "Coffee Time."

"Judy Garland" is still only a thing on Datalounge.

Yeah but outside of White Christmas and a couple of other holiday tunes nobody wants to hear Bing Crosby. Still a lot of people want to hear Sinatra.

Bing today is like Gene Autry.

Here Mario Cantone does a fine impression of Judy singing her legendary song from The Miracle in St. Louis.

The original cut of Miracle in St Louis was apparently over 3 hours long. Angela Lansbury had a very racy number as Lena the showgirl alongside Donald O’Connor playing a fiddling hobo.

R175 Lizsha should NEVER sing songs sung by good singers.

The comparison is vicious.

Judy Garland live Carnegie Hall album from 1961 is Garland at her very best

R176 did Don fiddle Angie? He was a hot little fuck and paulled focus from Gene when they duetted.

It’s an outstanding album by any standards. By the time she gets to San Francisco she’s on fire!

Method singing?

R179 In this deleted scene he certainly did Fiddle Angie. Their duet ‘Come Strung my String’ was too hot for Louis B Mayor who dragged Vincent Minnelli up his office when he saw the rushes.

"No-one under 40 has any idea who she was."

I don't think you speak for everyone under 40 years old, you dipshit.

For those of you not around when she died, it was a RELIEF, not a surprise, when Judy died. Nor did anyone try to figure out why, we all knew. She was mentally ill and drug/alcohol addicted. Forget all of that "MGM did this to her..." or "her mother did that to her..." even if it makes you heart bleed, not if makes you cry a million gay tears.

R184. I kind of get that. I remember seeing Amy Winehouse in the last year of her life and they go beyond that point where you know they can live. It starts to become a matter of time before you know that news will come.

Judy was the same age when she died as someone who was born in 1972 is now. Yet she looked like a woman in her 70s.

Your fave could NEVER, bitches.

Surprising, it was a shock when Garland died in June 1969. Yet a shock only for a bout 10 minutes. The first announcements in Oakland included Scotland Yard initially investigating her death. (I was passing through Oakland that day.)

After Garland's TV variety show was cancelled by CBS in 1964, she must have known there was never be an end to the IRS seizing any money earned.

HELLO!

A shock in Oakland, not a shock in New York.

I listen to some Judy about 4-5 times a week. I have ALWAYS been a total Judy Queen. I don't know why, I just always was, and it amuses me I am such a stereotype about it, but it's all wasted time spent wondering I suppose.....Time better spent wondering WHY Stanley Donen fired her from "Royal Wedding" when she refused to rehearse for ONE hour on a Saturday? That bothers me still!

Miracle in St-Louis doesn't features Elizabeth Taylor. Elizabeth played Natalie Wood 's sister in another movie. Little women. Taylor and Garland never appeared together in a movie I think. But Wood went on to co-star with Marilyn Monroe in' scudda hey scudda ho', bette davis in' 'the star' ', gene Tierney in ' the ghost and mrs muir'. Etc. Check your facts bitches please

E. Taylor and Nat. Wood on the set of" little women "

I can't believe that I just read through 193 replies on Judy's death during Pride Month on DATALOUNGE of all places and not a single poster knew that her death is associated with Stonewall not because of her death being an anniversary but that her funeral occurred on the afternoon of the evening of the first riot at the Inn. For decades the press reported that we rioted because the funeral had upset us and so we finally fought back. A total lie. Every single report since interviewing the original participants has been that they weren't thinking about that at all and it was just a coincidence. These were a bunch of young people, mainly young and mainly white CIS men who didn't give a fuck about Judy but about their rights and their being harassed. Not about their loss of an icon who was already old school at the time.

Who is "we"? Most of us weren't alive when Garland died and has been stated here many times, she is largely forgotten. There are too many myths about Stonewall to be believed.

R195 hon, most DLers were not only alive, but already older than Judy at the time of her death.... Do you read the fucking posts ? Thera fucking Bara is still a major mainstream Show-biz force here. And only here.

Judy Garland threw the first brick at Stonewall!

Theda Bara threw the first brick at Stonewall along with Nita Naldi!

I doubt being one hour late was the reason Garland was fired. It might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Astaire had more clout than Donen did and despite their huge success in Easter Parade which gave Astaire a new lease on life much because of Judy's performance even he had had enough of her. And he was known as the nicest guy in the business. This was the second film with him that she was fired from. How in the world did she then go on to perform at the Palace without cancelling all the time? Probably because of the late starting time. I assume she didn't have to be on stage for the first show until 3pm.

Yes but on films they’d want her on set at 6am for make-up, and she’d have been still out of it from the sleeping pills she took before bed. Unless there was someone there to give her an upper, she wouldn’t wake up. The live shows worked with her pill regime more. She’d naturally sleep till midday.

I can't even listen to the ROYAL WEDDING soundtrack without imagining how Garland would have killed with the knockabout "How Could You Believe Me". I can't quite see her singing "Too Late Now", unless it was transposed down.

Does anyone know if a pre-shoot recording was done?

There are no pre-recorded tracks by Judy but she did get around to singing "Too Late Now" on her TV series.

"Too Late Now"

Forgotten? I wonder what the BBC has to say?

Stop wondering r204

They know to call her MISS Garland.

put some RESPECT on that name, bitches!

Powell is surprisingly terrific in How Could You Believe Me. The stick in the mud in that movie is Churchill's daughter. Though I do like the way she says to Astaire 'I'm not at all flattered.'

Once you get addicted to sleeping pills you don't get off them.

[quote]Judy Garland live Carnegie Hall album from 1961 is Garland at her very best

It was her only album that really sold well.

It's odd to think now, but she wasn't a very popular recording artist.

In terms of her acting ability, "Judgement at Nuremberg" was her best film.

Judy could've easily had a second career in film if she was willing to take parts like that. Supporting roles, well written where she was not the focus. But her ego made her want to be the star. She couldn't handle the pressure of a starring role, supporting roles would've given her the money she needed without the pressure.

I don't think she had very good producers for her records. Maybe they didn't want to deal with her. There is a certain sameness and dullness about them. Yet the Carnegie is one of the great vocal pop albums of all time so it's not that she couldn't do it. Yes I know it was live and she was on fire but a great producer can bring that out in a studio. She recorded in the MGM studios for her film work and a good deal of it is amazing. Even her You Can't Get a Man With a Gun track is terrific. Visually though she looked pretty bad.

Her "Embraceable You" from "Girl Crazy" (on YouTube) is dazzling. She looks gorgeous, moves beautifully. I feel a little guilty about enjoying it so much, since I know that she might well have been high on uppers when filming it.

[quote]she might well have been high on uppers when filming it.

MIGHT? LOL

That Embraceable you is also beautifully staged with the moving groups of the boys in their dinner jackets. I just wish they had gotten her a younger partner than Charles Walters. He looks well into 30s when he is surrounded by boys. Bidin my Time is great as well. Love when she breaks the 4th wall and winks at the camera. Also that guy who does a brief tap dance in his cowboy boots(was this a thing? It's about the time of Oklahoma.) is terrific.

Dig her up. I want to see what she looks like.

R215 Pretty much the same.

Judy was a real wicked piece of work.

You all know Judy looked a mess and looked like she was on the verge of collapsing all the time. The public watched everything she was in because they all wanted to see her collapse live when it happened. But NOOOOOOOOOOO, she came out and gave a stellar performance and never publicly collapsed.

And a little known fact, it was Judy that got Mama Cass hooked on ham sandwiches.

Yes a tightrope walk. Will she fall? No she does it again! Well until the very end.

It's probably true that few people under 45 (I'm 49) know who Judy is. But, so what? I think she was hands down the greatest entertainer of the 20th century, and as long as I'm alive, at least one person will remember her.

I doubt there's any popular music today that anyone will still remember 50 years after the death of the artist. So, there's that.

" I hope you understand my wondrous thrill, 'cause Vaudevilles back as the Palace, And I'm on the bill."

Mary!

R210, think about her being fired from Valley of the Dolls. She couldn't handle supporting or character roles either.

Good description, R217, but that was long gone by 1968-69. Everyone could see what a wreck she was (it was getting worse and worse) and there were going to be no more comebacks.

I saw Burton Lane speak at a showing of Royal Wedding and he said (and let's face it he saw and probably knew them all) that Jolson was the greatest. He also said he was a despicable human being. Which a lot of people say. After her marriage with him Ruby refused to ever discuss him.

R221 it is shocking to think that Judy Garland died in her 40s. She looks like an organ grinder's 73-year-old monkey in that photo.

[quote]Jolson was the greatest.

I cannot stand that fucking ham.

And it is one of the things I don't like about Judy: singing his awful songs. Swanee makes me want to drive screwdrivers through my eardrums.

I agree with you but I like Hallelujah I'm a Bum which is a very interesting musical with a couple of terrific Rodgers and Hart songs.

What time is it ? 7:45 am ? Pass the Gin please ! Hips ! Geeeez, whose blood is that ? Mine ? Never mind. PILL PLEASE....OH NOoooo it's happening ! Brrr@_€#((%&€#@! Oupss ! Sorry ! "SoooooooommmmWAYYYYYYY Ooovaaahh zeeeuu Wayyyuunbowwwwww". Blurp

Thank you for that, r203, that was lovely. Now I'm only MORE cranky that Judy didn't make ROYAL WEDDING. I love Judy's soft, thoughtful ballads. And "Do It Again" from Carnegie Hall is a favorite of mine - that's the steamiest song Judy ever did!

I don't think she was on 'uppers' during "Embraceable You" at all. She actually seems to be enjoying herself tremendously, and she's at her MGM black-and-white most beautiful.

If anything, her Berkeley numbers are ones where she appears hopped up, but it might well be the terror of her director, screaming "GOOGLE 'EM! I WANT TO SEE YOUR EYES!"

I have posted this on other Judy threads over the years, but I'll repeat myself. Arthur Freed was a stone-cold creep with Judy and ANNIE GET YOUR GUN. It's almost as if he sat down and thought "Let's see...Judy is out of the hospital and rested but still a bit fragile...who should I assign to direct her? I know! I'll get the one director Judy loathes more than anybody, who is sure to scream at her and make her physically ill. I'll get BUZZ!"

I think R210 has a point. If Judy had taken supporting roles in the early 60s, she could have developed a nice little career for herself. Judy's problem as she got older was that she couldn't mentally or physically sustain a performance over a long period of time--she could be great for one night in concert, or for a few days on a film, but ask more than that and she would collapse. That's why the TV series wasn't really the best idea for her, or the endless concert tours. Supporting roles where the pressure wasn't really on her, and that only took a week or two to film, would have been perfect. But her ego wouldn't let her be anything less than center of attention.

By the time she did Dolls in 1967, it was too late for her even in supporting roles. It was post-Hong Kong overdose, and she was never the same after that.

She still could have filmed Dolly when it was done in '68 though released a year later. I imagine her holding up all those extras and technicians in the 14th street parade until 12 noon when she shows up and then in her trailer until 3. Then she does the shot in one take and is perfection as everyone around her is having their nervous breakdown along with the entire board of 20th Century Fox.

I saw Garland perform at New York Felt Forum in late December 1967. Once she stopped her endless asides to the audience, and started being serious it was a decent performance.

I was stationed in the army at Fort Dix, New Jersey. By the time I caught a bus from the Port Authority to Fort Dix, it was 2 o' clock in the morning. By then, Garland would not have cared. Still, I am glad I saw her in person.

A healthy Judy would have been a fantastic Dolly, and Auntie Mame, and Mama Rose. But a truly healthy Judy had left the building by the mid-1940s. Much is made of her Hong Kong overdose, but she really wasn't ever the same after her serious psychiatric breakdown in 1947. Work pressures, a disintegrating marriage, and the birth of Liza all contributed to a major meltdown which landed her in a mental hospital. She made movies after that, but the performances often had to be pulled out of her piece by piece. She also never looked truly young after that time, even though she was only in her mid-20s.

MGM films they wanted Judy for but she couldn't handle post-breakdown: Royal Wedding and The Barkleys of Broadway (which, along with Easter Parade, would have made a wonderful trilogy with Fred Astaire); Annie Get Your Gun, and Showboat. She missed out on some major roles that could have been classic films, because MGM couldn't understand that Judy, by that time, was a one-picture-a-year performer. They kept trying to put her in two pictures a year with directors like Busby Berkeley, and the result was constant trauma for everyone involved.

R226, it is a well know FACT that Judy's preference was VODKA, not gin.

All that talent, and died on the shitter. Just like Elvis.

Booze and pills and heroin with beloved Mickey Deans near the end of her life. Not uppers and downers. She was a major drug addict of speed, barbiturates and opiates. And she WAS always drunk. She had the worst enunciation of any major singer, ever. Slurring her words, leaving off consonants. Yeah she has some sober nights on record, but that doesn't mean she was drug free.

Many other artists music will live on longer than Garland. It's already a fact. Her voice minus performance is hard to listen too. Too much vocal throbbing, a career ending WIDE WOBBLY vibrato and every song is arranged the same. She has to take a running start for the last note and never finishes the damn word or musical phrase. She actually sang quieter and more nuanced standards better. She was great at crescendos and subtle time and key changes. But it was all overDONE and it's why her work is so dated.

I have never gotten the appeal of either Judy Garland (or Liza) or Marilyn Monroe.

I am amused by those who say young people don't know who she was, or who Streisand is, and seem to think it diminishes their talent or artistry. (I love the poster who says Streisand sings schlock. Bernstein, Arlen, Sondheim, Porter, Gershwin, Rogers, Legrande, etc in recent years and concerts- junk.) I think it just makes them sound stupid. I knew all the greats from an era prior to the one I grew up in. And I know who Benny Goodman was, and Duke Ellington, and Nat King Cole etc. etc. So did most of my contemporaries. To me it just means you are a cultural ignoramus if you only know who Katie Perry is or you think Madonna is washed up. Probably also don't know who Picasso or Warhol or Einstein, or FDR or ER or Bessie Smith or Billie Holiday or Louis Armstrong are either. Sad.

Not so hard to understand Garland. She was a prodigy who worked like a dog when she was a kid- mother gave her amphetamines to perform and barbiturates to sleep (It was not MGM who got her going)- and she was hooked. My guess is that she was also bi-polar before anyone knew what that was. I think it's interesting to imagine what her career and that incredible voice may have been like if she had not become so addicted. It's very hard to watch those interviews at the end of her life- particularly if you have ever known someone (well) who's life was destroyed, as her's was, by substance abuse.

R237 she returned to that stuff later in her career. During many prime years she was singing schlock. JUNK.

Sing 'em muck!

But "...Nuremberg" was in 1961, she was still "OK" back then. By the time "Valley..." came around in the late 60s, she was past handling anything. All those years in between were too hard. If she had stuck with supporting roles, instead of racking her brain out, she'd have stood a chance.

Sure Judy, in many ways had it tough, as she was used from the cradle almost, by both her parents and studio, but she also had a lot of accolades and fame and love from the public, throughout her career. There comes a time when everyone has to learn how to cope with this, Judy never did and too often the public gives her a pass.

Contrast this with someone like Gary Coleman, who in, with Johnny Carson, basically saved "NBC" during the late 70s, early 80s. (Together the two earned about one-third of all NBC's profit, which wasn't much back then (NBC didn't recover till Cosby). While Carson was give a pat after pat by NBC and the public, Coleman was used and given nothing for his substantial help. Even Shirley Temple, who also saved RKO was treated well.

So there are child stars that are at least treated well even if they all (or most) are thrown to the dogs later on.

[quote]Jolson was the greatest. [quote]I cannot stand that fucking ham.

George Burns said the same thing. He was one of the two celebrities of that era Burns didn't like, the other was Groucho Marx

Although Burns didn't like Jolson personally, he still gave credit to Jolson professionally for helping Gracie and he when the started out.

How did that marvelous big sound come out of such a tiny individual? Same with Piaf.

Yes, Judy Garland is totally "forgotten." That's why a new biopic is coming out about her starring Renee Zellweger. Yes, Hollywood is SO in the habit of making biopics about totally "forgotten" stars than nobody has ever heard of or cares about.

Shirley Temple saved RKO? Hmmm. I thing Ginger and Fred would have something to say about that.

Temple worked for 20th Century Fox.

I wonder why George Burns did not like Groucho.

The Zellweger film is about the wreckage that was Judy Garland at the end of her life. She was a great star, one of the greatest. But the film is about what was left of her. It's not expected to be a box office sensation but ruination of great stars sell. There have been how many Whitney biopics and documentaries in the 7 years since she died. And there will be more, because she is the greater loved singer. And she never played the victim, though she was certainly victimized. Garland hadn't a chance really at a happy life. But she never really tried either did she?

That other drug addicted brain dead Garland, Liza - just said that her mother would have laughed at Gaga's A Star is Born, but that she looks forward to seeing Zellweger play Mama.

" I hope they don't do what they always do "

Judy Garland performed in a long concert tour before and after Carnegie Hall. CBS signed Judy and also Danny Kaye for hour long variety shows during 1963-1964. Garland was slotted at 9 to 10 pm Sunday night. When the show was cancelled she did seven or eight concerts on Sunday nights to save money paying guests So 1964 was essentially the end of her career although Judy ived another five years.

R224 Swanee is part of the Great American Songbook, and I love it. Though, I prefer Judy's version to Jolson's. I also happen to be a millennial.

r232: That is a very astute observation about Judy never being the same after her 1947 breakdown.. She looks frail and tired in her post-HARVEY GIRLS films (and she did not enjoy making that) . She even had trouble getting through her guest spots in WORDS AND MUSIC and TILL THE CLOUDS ROLL BY. Her marriage to Minelli was a disaster - she no longer trusted him (rightly) thinking his first allegiance was to MGM and not to her.

But she was good on the TV show, for sure. It was after that was cancelled that she seemed to go off the bend. You can see it in interviews, etc.

It's a shame Judy wasn't well enough to do Auntie Mame - both Broadway and the movie. She would've been magnificent.

Judy Garland would have been totally wrong as Auntie Mame. Brassy and overblown was not her forte. She was wrong for Annie Oakley for the same reason. Neither role would have been suitable for her screen persona, which was wistful and vulnerable. She couldn't cut it as Helen Lawson in "Valley of the Dolls" for that same reason.

Bullshit. Judy would've been perfect as Mame. It's pretty close to how she was in real life.

Judy would have been totally campy as Helen Lawson.

Judy Garland was not Auntie Mame. She was more Mary Tyrone. Long Day's Journey Into Night.

The grousing about her voice is so strange to me. The sheer power of the woman on the Carnegie Hall album, and the adoring audience reaction, says it all, really.

I love Swanee, and her Rock a Bye Your Baby (with a Dixie Melody) is no less than a master class on how to build a song to a thrilling climax. No one was better. No one.

She had thrilling power and resonance and good intonation. Show-Biz. Popular singers didn't belt like that then, not even on Broadway. Garland was an exciting performer. But her voice alone is not one of the greats.

Her phrasing was really off.

"mel-OHD-dee"

Several years ago, Judy was taken out of the crypt in Westchester, NY and re-interred at the Hollywood Forever cemetery so all three of her kids could visit her grave, and someday be buried next to her.

[quote] No one was better. No one.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

I'll say!

[quote]Several years ago, Judy was taken out of the crypt in Westchester, NY and re-interred at the Hollywood Forever cemetery so all three of her kids could visit her grave

Better she had to travel than us. It's SO inconvenient!

R256 I can't listen to those racist old songs about "Mammy" -- they are so cringy.

Oh, You'll LOVE this, r 262. "Swanee" is "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" next to this.

Judy was put away in a crypt in New York by her sleazy last husband, the gay as a goose Mickey Deans. He put her there supposedly because she'd once lived near Westchester. WTF? She belonged in Hollywood with all the stars. She's where she should be now.

She recaptures her old vibrancy in In the Good Old Summertime. Also she and Rooney are dynamite in I Wish I Were in Love Again. The Mr Monotony clip is sensational though it did not belong in Easter Parade. I'd like to know who choreographed her movements and gestures. Impeccable.

R237, charlie, have you no other life than to post shit like this? Do you live to teach us this crap?

What's interesting about In The Good Old Summertime: Arthur Freed was nowhere near it. It was made by the more laid-back Joe Pasternack unit.

Wasn't there a story that Van Johnson was asked why the ITGOS shoot went well, and he said that it was because people were nice to Judy?

A song that was shot but not used was "Last Night When We Were Young." (by Arlen?). It's on YouTube. And very dark.

[quote]The two best voices ever: the voice she had when she was young and the voice she had when she was older. To say nothing of her flawless phrasing and charm.

Here is Rosemary Clooney, after her drug problems.....she had gained weight and lost some of the agility and power of her voice - so she just decided to become an impeccable singer within what she could still do. She is probably about 48 years old. She knew what she could do. She shortened phrases, deepened lyrics, became intimate with the band. She wouldn't bring down opera houses - she never needed that. So she became a better singer and happier woman for the last decades of her life.

The women with the great big powerhouse voices all suffer from the public's desire to want to hear them tear the roof off. Everytime. Forever.

Whitney and Garland - for a long time after their prime could still sing very well with diminished power - but their most famous songs were so BIG. Garland never really acknowledged what happened to her in life or with her voice. Her half assed jokes didn't make up for terrible performances and impossibly bad singing. Beautiful Whitney knew what she had done to her voice and did try to preserve it - but kept falling back into drugs and despair all the time. But she knew. She wanted it back. When you're that gifted you know, long before any crowd tells you. Garland didn't realize her full vocal power until a bit later in life and her kind of loud, proud emotive and daring singing was not heard on American stages by pop singers before her. I think that's why she hammed it up a bit much later sometimes. She was unsure of her voice.

Once in a lifetime voices like Whitney and Judy's voices are not retrievable past a certain time. Yet they both appreciated the art of more subtle interpretive singers like Dionne or Rosemary Clooney or Peggy Lee. Ella. Nancy Wilson. Judy didn't really have the luxury of just singing cabaret songs or transposed versions of her great big numbers. Whitney stood tall and sang live and loud and disappointed people all around the world on her last tour. To be that great and watch people walk out on you has to be very sad. But a racehorse wants to always run. There's a time to not do it anymore, or change what you do. Great singers can always sing, even with diminished voices. Some just couldn't make that transition.

Because it takes health, a clear mind, a goal beyond tomorrow and a sense of reality to make those changes. Drug addicts who remain addicted for 30 years are more likely to die in the dust of past glory.

Yes, it's Arlen and (Harburg ...I think). Of all Arlen's songs, it was his personal favorite.

It always gets cut from films: Lawrence Tibbett in "Metropolitan" (1935), Judy, then Sinatra in "Take Me Out To The Ball Game".

Well it's beautiful but GRIM. Should have used it in ASIB.

She was a drug addict. That she squandered her talent is on her.

r237 is charlie? Streisand sang plenty of "schlock" sherlock. What's more sad is how she made so many great composer's work sound like schlock. Baba Streusel doesn't belong in the conversation about great singers. People realize this more and more. Pretty voice though. Once.

In Judy's day, there was no rehab like we have now. Addiction was not nearly as well understood as it is today, and options for treatment were very limited. Tragically, people in Judy's time period who were addicts just couldn't get the help they needed, because it hadn't been invented yet. And there were no drugs to treat it with like there are now.

[quote] ITGOS

ITGOS?

Right, and Liza has been through what- 10 rehabs?

Now you can see her in the Valley for $20 bucks, two drink minimum.

ITGOS is a really lovely film and Judy is well lovely in it.

What is ITGOS?

Or did that poster mean ICGOS?

No the poster meant ITGOS. Get off this thread if you don't know Judy's films.

Just before "Judy at Carnegie Hall" was released in 1961, radio stations played some of the songs. I barely knew who she was as a performer. But, her singing was exciting and even confrontation. Capital released the concert before the photos and liner notes were ready

It's a shame the Carnegie Hall concert wasn't filmed. What a missed opportunity.

Yes. That's true and accepted R274. When Garland sought treatment out of duress or under orders it was pretty much the nuthouse. And later - even during her lifetime, when drugs were spoken of more freely...there was still no place for enlightened treatment or proper care for drug addiction. But some of us have been to rehab and fought addiction. Malibu treatment centers for wealthy people are no more successful than nuthouses. It's the shame that hinders recovery. Was Judy Garland ashamed? Maybe somewhere deep inside but she spent her life blaming others and crippling her children.

Garland never acknowledged her drinking and drug problems and she lived with what is kindly labelled a dual diagnosis. There wasn't the knowledge or awareness we have now, but there was always good sense and reality to be faced about drug addiction and unstable behavior. Some movies were made about the subject in the forties and fifties and forever after. The truth is that people with enough money and enablers lack motivation to change. Garland lost everything - AND she STILL sunk to a lower level. She was in deep and disgusting denial. She chose another fag husband to gush over, an ugly lil house to live in, another bad business labelling of her name to hucksters and gave a few last trying weak performances. That's not bravery. Brave people go out with pride. They do a BIG hit and hit their head in the tub. Judy whimpered in the corners of what was left of her and begged to be still loved. Gross. You can't blame her mother or MGM for that.

[quote]There wasn't the knowledge or awareness we have now, but there was always good sense and reality to be faced about drug addiction and unstable behavior.

They didn't have the therapy we have now. That's what has helped tremendously.

Yeah, tell that bullshit to Amy Winehouse.

R279 My apologies.

I didn't know In The Good Old Summertime.

I did know I Could Go On Singing.

And since I'm the OP, I'll fucking stay. But thanks for insisting long enough to remind me to take a second look.

Good, OP. You fucking stay. And stay fucking!

[quote] There are too many myths about Stonewall to be believed.

Ha! Exactly, especially this newfangled and STRICTLY ENFORCED FICTION that "Trans women of color GAVE us our RIGHTS because they STARTED Stonewall!!" Bwaaahahahaaa!

Of course there is NOTHING in the historical record of the time that even hints at such foolishness! Of the sparse photo documents ALL are photos of picturing 90% white gay guys ("cis" if you insist on that slur) and a few feature the male-presenting Marsha P. Johnson (dressed as a man) smiling broadly from the fifth row! Not so recent interviews have Johnson professing her fresher recall of not arriving on the scene the first night until hours after the action got underway around 2:00am when a more circus-like atmosphere had taken over. He/She also describes her friend Sylvia Rivera as having been passed out drunk in Bryant Park forty blocks away, and not present at all. Rivera's family claimed he still lived at home and wasn't anywhere near the events of that week!

Neither ever identified as "trans" or women during their lifetimes, but called themselves "drag queens", or shockingly, "transvestites"!!! Where do people get this "trans women of color" bullshit? Wait....I know where.

You're correct about Shirley Temple, wrong studio but the point is the same.

[quote]I wonder why George Burns did not like Groucho.

He said Groucho was rude, crude, crass and told downright filthy jokes and stories. He even did this around his wife Gracie and Jack Benny's wife Mary which further irritated George Burns. George Burns said while he disliked Groucho, he absolutely loved Harpo and he liked Chico (though he said he had to many drinking and gambling problems).

Burns also wasn't terribly fond of Mary, Jack's wife but that wasn't hatred and it had more to do with the fact, Jack's first big love was Mary Kelly a girl who was a personal friend of George and Gracie and Jack refused to marry Mary Kelly because she wasn't Jewish. He said Jack was a wimp for not doing that, which is the only negative thing I ever read that George said about Jack Benny. George himself was a Jew and he married Gracie, a Catholic and raised their children as Catholic (they were adopted from a Catholic agency).

Ronny Burns was pretty cute.

[quote]Where do people get this "trans women of color" bullshit? Wait....I know where.

Judy said it best - "I sing for fags, men in dresses and their fat wives. In ChicaGO - colored people are allowed too."

I just straighten my stockings, tie off, get a fresh dose of love in my arm - sail out and hope I can sing! I'll sing almost till intermission if the fix is right. That's Entertainment!

She is linked to us. Forever. Her death will always be part of our collective story. Her death led to our collective story FFS.

It's interesting, because Ben Platt is my latest obsession and he adores Judy. There's a YouTube clip of him singing one of Judy's songs. He's 25.

R262 I don't think it's racist. Or, at least there was no racist intent on the part of the performer. I love those songs, and I loved when Mandy Patinkin did them.

I'm looking forward to the Zellweger film. Hope it doesn't suck.

Judy sailed through the shoot of "Till the Clouds Roll By". She was fresh off her long honeymoon in New York City and was pregnant and hopeful. She's excellent in her two or three numbers, and looks radiant.

Who impregnated her? That was some honeymoon.

Minnelli directed her numbers in that, yes? Any info on how "The Clock," with poor Robert Walker, went?

Watched A Child is Waiting recently, from 1963. Beautiful, heart felt and ahead of its time in the depiction of the children. Burt was great, was Judy was fucking stunning. And very human and vunerable

....Poster doesn't really sell it

r295: I also like seeing Judy as a blonde.

One of my favorite Judy numbers. Who is the gorgeous man Judy embraces at 1:33? He looks familiar.

I wrote about that number and how beautifully staged it is with those masses of young men moving about.

But OP you should still go, go to the moon! How does one live so long and not know a beloved Judy movie?

r300 same, she looked good with any hair color/style

You did indeed, r301! You have most excellent taste.

But please don't be mean to the OP. Yes, us oldsters love our Judy films, but no need to shame someone who may not know all of them. He leaned something today, and that's a good thing. :-)

Share the Judy love to fans old and new!

I'm not sure OP is worthy.

R291, No it didn't.

Loving Garland, Streisand, Madonna, Gaga, etc., etc. is a generational thing.

Enjoy your generation's diva, but don't expect the next one to give a shit.

R301 he looks a bit like John Russell, but I don't think he is. I think he was an extra in a number of films.

R288, you neglect to mention that George Burns was a womanizer (ewww) who ran around on Gracie left and right. He wasn't above Groucho, Benny or anyone.

"Tragically, people in Judy's time period who were addicts just couldn't get the help they needed, because it hadn't been invented yet. "

Yeah. Only Judy Garland needed much more - she needed psychiatric help and medication for bipolar disorder. THAT is what she was ashamed of. Having mental illness was far more taboo than drug/alcohol addiction in the 1960s.

Judy made 22 films between 1938 and 1946, and did publicity tours and all that bullshit on top of that. No wonder she burned down and melted down, especially when you throw two failed marriages, at least one abortion, and many, many doomed love affairs on top of it.

She did okay on the ITGOS and EP sets because she was well-rested and treated decently. But MGM just couldn't resist milking its cash cow, and they kept throwing her into high-pressure sets after she'd just completed a film. She could handle that at 18, but not by age 25. Some of Judy's problems are of her own making, but MGM has a lot of blame to bear--they used her up and only let her out of her contract once they were sure she was too broken to be a successful performer ever again. They were wrong, but they were right in that she never got her youthful stamina back, or her movie stardom. Even ASIB was a disappointment.

Judy only worked as hard as she did in the 50s and early 60s because she was propped up by pills. The same ones that made her unstable and inconsistent in her performances, and killed her in her mid-40s.

Vaudeville's back at the Palace, you whores, and I'm on the bill!

Sing it, Judy!

Sure Judy was on a harsh schedule, but she could've said 'no.' Other stars, such as Rita Hayworth did it. Rita screwed up for other reasons but she was able to take firm control over her career.

Face it Judy LIKED being a star. She liked the attention and LIKED the thrill of the ups and downs of her abuse.

You can only help people 50% of the way, the rest they have to choose to do themselves.

It always amazes me when anyone is critical of Judy they always seem to think those critical are attacking her talent. No one is doing that. I think most people agree, as do I, she was an amazing talent and larger than life personality. But no matter what happens in your life, you have the choice to deal with it, and you have to deal and take responsibility for your choices.

R313 I think for most of us that's true. But I think for child stars, their sense of reality is severely warped.

I do get what you mean and for most people I think it's within reach. But I don't think that kind of effort or help was ever within her reach.

Yes, R313, 314......but Judy was MENTALLY ILL. from the start.

I don't agree that she was "from the start" but I think she became that way.

Chemicals plus stress will make a bitch bipolar.

^ amateur

[quote]Chemicals plus stress will make a bitch bipolar.

That is very ignorant. That is not what makes people bipolar, but it is what exacerbates the condition.

Are we forgetting that Judy's older sister was a mentally ill alcoholic suicide? Or even know it? What was her excuse - she had no movie career and had a minimal singing career.

Well when your family keeps getting run out of town because your father is a pedophile while you are growing up I guess it's not very helpful in leading an emotionally stable life.

She married 3 gay guys -- trying to recapture her father?

Yes, Judy made lots of movies in a short time period, but so did many others. Have any of you been on a movie set? They are sitting 90% of the time. It's not like she was digging ditches, or working in some sweat shop.

No, but its wasn't relaxing and carefree either. They could be very stressful and pressured environments. If a dance step or hand gesture was flubbed everything had to be done over and over to the directors liking.

R323 = Ann Miller

I said to Judy, I said "Judy, you gotta get offa those damn pills, honey. They're no good for ya, and they're screwin' up your talent."

As Kate said, It's not like we spent all day hauling sacks of feed.

Kate, God bless her, never had to put on a pair of tap shoes and TAP for fifteen fuckin' hours a day!

Judy wasn't as mentally strong as other MGM stars, but that doesn't mean that MGM wasn't abusive to her and everyone else who worked for them. MGM could have done a great deal more to nurture the fragile girl who made so much money for them, but in the end they didn't give a shit. They literally helped kill the goose that laid the golden eggs: With better treatment, Judy's movie stardom could easily have lasted into the mid-50s at least.

^ Not on your life!

Judy helped make hundreds of millions for MGM. I know she died broke, but what was her average net worth throughout her career?

Judy didn't understand money at all: She spent what she wanted and never worried about taxes or saving for the future. She left that to her mother and then her many husbands.

Apparently she made loads of money in the 50s through all those concert tours, but Sid Luft never found them the appropriate tax shelters. Taxes on the rich were extremely high in the 50s, which led to all of Judy's tax problems later. Also, Sid was a compulsive gambler, so a lot of it was lost at the track. Then, in the 60s, she was staring to make headway on her debts, but her agent and lover David Begelman swindled her out of the bulk of it. After the cancellation of the TV show, she had no chance of ever catching up.

I don't think Suzy was bipolar. From all accounts she was seriously depressed after her second marriage ended in divorce (after 20 years together), and her new husband had children with the new wife. Suzy was never able to conceive, unlike her sisters. She was also broke and an alcoholic.

r331 seems to be a pattern with the men who ripped off Judy. Mayer, Luft, Begelman...

r322 - Yes, Judy made lots of movies in a short time period, but so did many others. Have any of you been on a movie set? They are sitting 90% of the time. It's not like she was digging ditches, or working in some sweat shop.

I was absolutely fascinated with Judy from the first moment I ever saw her, as a child, in the Wizard of Oz and her musicals with Micky Rooney. There was just something about her that I found enormously appealing. I've never changed, I still love her and always will.

In his book about her, Sid Luft writes that Garland actually never wanted to be a movie star. It was her mother that wanted that. All Judy wanted to do was sing, and after she left MGM, that's basically all she did.

How many actresses from back then had crooked husbands or boyfriends who were also their "money managers" and ripped them off blind? It seems like that was a big pattern in those days with female entertainers. Modern entertainers are apparently much smarter with their money and leave all their financial business with professionals, instead of a husband or significant other.

Katharine Hepburn, Greta Garbo and Barbara Stanwyck were lucky that they were all lesbians, because they never squandered their money with husbands and they all died rich.

Debbie Reynolds was ripped off by at least two of her husbands.

Lena Horne trusted her gay husband and her non-gay Jewish manager to watch the money!

"In his book about her, Sid Luft writes that Garland actually never wanted to be a movie star. It was her mother that wanted that."

Yes, I;m sure Judy probably told him that. It's also bullshit. She wanted to be a big star, and being a big star meant making movies. She reveled in her movie stardom.

When did she tell you that, r341?

Gerold Frank's bio, which is as closed to authorized as it gets, tells a story where 14-year-old Judy had a meltdown seeing Deanna Durbin in her starring role in Three Smart Girls. "Deanna's a star and I'm nothing!" she cried. She wanted to be a movie star, though the mercurial Judy may have had times when she said she didn't. Then once she became a star, she didn't know how to be anything else.

Sid made a profit off of Judy's concerts, not surprised he would say that.

Sid is definitely not the sole authority on Judy. The various biographies of her paint wildly different pictures of Sid himself. Some say he was a tough guy with a heart of gold, others that he was an abusive grifter. The truth surely lies somewhere in-between.

I like blue.

"When did she tell you that, R341?"

Her well documented life (there are quite a few biographies of her; didn't you know that?) revealed Garland as a celebrity who loved her movie stardom. You don't know much about her, do you?

Yes, being a lesbian is the way to stay rich!

R334 I think it's funny that when Judy Garland does a duet with Mickey Rooney, when they sing together, you can never hear him.

That's the way I like a duet.

"Gerold Frank's bio, which is as closed to authorized as it gets"

Ha ha, Frank wrote that Mark Herron was as straight as an arrow. If that's what Judy wanted out there, what good is it?

Has anyone seen Michele Ragusa play July Garland in the Stage St. Louis production of The Boy From Oz? She is supposed to be amazing, and got rave reviews. The show stars my favorite Broadway actor David Elder. He is an "old reliable" type, and is supposed to be fantastic in the role of Peter Allen.

"She is supposed to be amazing"

Could you replace AMAZING with excellent or good/great/incredible? I'm fucking sick of that damned word.

Sorry to make you sick. I heard Michele Ragusa's performance as Judy is excellent. Has anyone see it?

Her performance SLAPS!

Nothing much to do at 9:50PM on Thurs night, eh?

R350 It is like any female that sings a duet with Vince Gill, who seems to be a popular duet partner. Reba, Dolly, Barbara Streisand, etc... you can never hear him, unless he is singing by himself.

The greatest entertainer of the 20th century, hands down. Who 50 years after her death can still thrill. This video of her singing Gershwin's Swanee sends chills up my spine, and makes me tear up.

She was one of a kind. Even to those of us who were born after she died.

How could you not melt?

BTW, when L.B. Mayer ran this footage for Clark Gable, rumor is the King wept.

r361: At the famous MGM Anniversary luncheon in February 1949. , Garland was seated next to Ava Gardner , who was sitting next to Gable. He leaned over Ava and cracked to Judy "Goddamned brat. You've ruined every one of my birthdays. They bring you out of the wallpaper to sing that fucking song and it's a pain in my ass." Garland laughed and later said "That's the first time I ever liked him."

That's a reckless and not great performance of Swanee R359. Garland growled when she wasn't sure she could hit the next note. A few singers do that but it was a very harsh sound with her.

She did sing Swanee beautifully on the Carnegie Hall album and of course on the original soundtrack of ASIB. That soundtrack is Garland's greatest and peak vocal performance. If people want to argue the greatness of her voice, it's that film soundtrack they should reference. The resonance and ring on Born in a Trunk puts Streisand to shame and matches the great bell tower moments of Whitney Houston. Like Whitney, Garland's voice could evoke church bells and trumpets, walls falling down. In their greatest moments - the power and passion of their voices thrilled people. Garland was a better singer, Whitney had a better voice. Don't argue that she didn't.

Garland's vocal apex is not at Carnegie Hall (though she is amazing on Alone Together, the crescendo of Stormy Weather, the best artistry on I Can't Give You Anything But Love and her vocal triumph in the second song of the Olio) or her TV series. To say she was great then is understood. When you're that good you can afford to be a bit husky voiced and wobbly on end phrases. But for a clarion call and full vocal power, the RING of what resonance means and true vocal confidence, you need to go back to her recording of A Star is Born. yeah her voice would thrill again, but that is the template of the mature Garland sound, at full power and under control.

I do agree with R313. To criticize her is not to undervalue her talent. Garland was not healthy or disciplined to say the least and she took her great gifts for granted. As she aged she held them for ransom. Self abuse and hard times stole from her talent AND artistry. Then she had nowhere to go. Because she was a great star who needed money - she could only fail.

I'm not impressed with the Star is Born version of Swanee. It's fine, but she sang it in a studio. I loved when she sang live, imperfections and all. I think that version of Swanee that I posted here from the 1962 special is actually better than Carnegie Hall. Only because in Carnegie Hall, she sings it late in the concert, and her voice was a bit tired by then.

Interview with Tennessee Williams Conducted by James Grissom New Orleans 1982

A lot of people have a bit of talent, so it isn't talent that frightens people: It's genius. When someone utterly unique and bold comes along, there's fear and hatred. And it cannot be explained. There is no explanation for genius, and we can't assume bad childhoods and misplaced affections lead us toward it, or the cities would bulge with Picassos and Garlands, and instead we have indications and grudges.

Judy Garland was a genius stuffed into a tiny, fragile body, and it walked right out and did what it did, and people went absolutely insane. Some of us insane with admiration and incredulity; others insane with envy and lack of understanding.

She was a freak. They happen rarely, and they never have a good time of it.

Garland was warm. Whitney was ice cold.

Also...Garland an Streisand (at her peak) performed many timeless classics of the American songbook - several they introduced. Whitney was talented but most of her output was forgettable pop shlock.

to mention whitney here is to incite a riot, but she was NOT cold, her heart was on full display each time she performed. Her voice was so demonstrably superior to anything ever heard before and she was so very beautiful - that the only words that old garland & streisand fans can come up with to describe her are 'cold' or unmusical. Neither are true, but i understand why you feel so threatened. Whitney was not a great interpreter of the classic songbook - and she never tried to be or had to be. that's such a weird criticism. she was the world's best pop singer ever. with gospell, r&b and soul influences. she is the most beloved voice of the last century. And she always will be. range, power, clarity, resonance, musicality, velvet low tones, a gorgeous chest belt that could travers the whole damn song with agility and unbelievable power....then PLUS her operatic head voice full of trills, soulful phrase endings, beautiful coloratura mastery of delivery and stunning beauty - she will never be matched.

Unlike Garland, Whitney's greatest moments are there for everyone to see LIVE. She sang better live than on record and she was stunning in her recordings. Streisand is barely in the top ten and though she was musical, she was too self indulgent to make more than a pretty noise. Garland was very special, but not many younger people have heard her best work. She isn't as great a vocalist as Barbra, Celine, Whitney and Aretha. But she was the better singer.

I have no problem with Whitney Houston. I can hear she's technically very good. But she never moved me the way Judy does. Only an idiot would argue that Whitney had no talent, or wasn't a great singer.

R367 that's it. A beautiful voice, but trite tuneless songs. How Will I Know? The Greatest Love?

Indulge me for a minute R369. This is Whitney past her first prime but long before her fall. It reminds me of a Garland series performance, I don't know why. I guess because it is a song she wouldn't usually sing and she looks older than she was. Her voice is husky and breaks. She doesn't hit the big notes head on, but it's quite masterful and beautiful and moving. There is a bit of artifice between her and the audience. She is poised, but she's high. She had a thousand better vocal moments than this, but it shows just how well she could sing. She shines from a soulful connection to the song.

Whitney was a crack ho in bad wigs.

Whitney was irrefutably the greatest and most beloved popular singer who ever lived. Fifty years from now, this will still be true.

Test R271

Whitney and Judy suffered from similar problems: Unstable family background and a public image very much at odds with the private person. Unlike the likeable, sexless sprite Judy was portrayed as in the MGM films, she was a bawdy, nervy, foul-mouthed little vaudeville kid who loved to drink and smoke and fuck with abandon. MGM's need to keep her a sexless fourteen-year-old for as long as possible was at the root of her identity issues. Frances Gumm was NOT Judy Garland.

R362 and everybody - have you ever noticed that when the camera pans the table at the MGM anniversary luncheon, Judy has her back to the camera while carrying on a conversation with a non-existent person? When I saw this I knew she wasn't plying with a full deck.

I always wondered what was going on there, R376! Yes, when the camera pans, you cannot see who the hell she is talking to at the table behind her. I had not considered she was simply pretending. Bizarre.

Growing up as she did, Judy had such a fragile sense of self and such an ill-defined reality/fantasy border, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she showed outright schizophrenic symptoms fairly early on.

It looks like Judy is just talking to the group of people behind her....?

Yeah, she's talking with the person in the row behind.

A nonissue

She's not talking to herself, ffs. But it's seemed to me that possibly she is intentionally "not cooperating" with MGM by turning away from the camera. Doesn't Fred give her a little nudge as if to say "face the camera"? Was this just after they worked together? I wonder who came up with the seating plan. Strategy!

I was about to wonder aloud if anyone in that film was still alive, thinking 'probably not,' but then I saw Angela Lansbury. The ol' gal is quickly entering Olivia de Havilland territory.

Is Maggie O'Brien in that group? She's still with us, knock wood. Also little Janie Powell.

Golly, don't misremember me!

Arlene Dahl is there and she is still alive.

And sampled both Lex Barker and Fernando "Mahvelous" Lamas. Claims Cheryl Crane lied about Lex, since he was so Big that if young Cheryl had really "encountered" him, she would have been killed by his appendage.

Gee, makes ya think...

"Yeah, she's talking with the person in the row behind."

WHO? There's no one there unless they're sitting on the floor.

r388 there are people sitting behind her (she is just below them) and they are looking at her smiling and reacting to what she is saying.

I see the Whitney troll made it on to this thread...

R388 can't see the people because he/she is a vampire.

Garland is clearly talking to two women to her right (as she is turned) behind her.

But, as a star, she would have been acutely aware of where the camera was, so turning her back to it may have been a fuck you to MGM.

Today, June 22, marks the 50th anniversary of the most tragic event in homosexual history, if not all of human history. Millions have never recovered from the trauma of that day.

La verdad, Ernita.

absolute brilliance

Yes. Thanks for that. As one of the commenters on the YouTube page, wrote, it's like a 3-act play. The more I see her, the more I'm astounded. It's 50 years today. There aren't many celebs I miss, but I miss her.

Liza will be getting hammered drunk today.

[quote] Liza will be getting hammered drunk today.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

I'll say!

R389 there's another row of stars behind her, true. However, she is NOT talking to any of them or listening to any of them talking. They are ignoring her as if they don't know what the hell she's doing. R392, no. You have a vivid imagination.

Go to 4:55

Judy is surprisingly thin in that clip. Must have been after she went to the fat-farm post Summer Stock.

r399 Here, I drew some arrows to show you who she is talking to and who is listening to her.

Very good, R401. The woman behind Judy you point to is Alexis Smith and she has a smile on throughout her part of the film whether Judy's looking sort of that way or not. She's actually looking to Alexis' right, vaguely. Additionally, the tables are quite a ways apart although it might not look that way. Judy is not talking to Alexis, Alexis is not smiling at her or listening to her. Sorry.

r402 the woman next to Alexis (when the camera pans over) is also smiling and looking at Judy

Oh my motherfucking GAAAAWWWWDDDDDD. Are we seriously fucking debating this over and over?

She's talking to someone, you loony twats.

Yeah, it's 10 minutes of MGM publicity puffery, not the fucking Zapruder film.

I will dim my kitchen lights at 8 pm for one moment in honor of a legend.

Shouldn't that be the bathroom?

The lady in red.....

What is funny about Alexis Smith being there - she was on loan-out from Warner Brothers for "Any Number Can Play", her only film for MGM.

R409 I don't really remember her film roles that much, but she was great on Dallas.

410 posts?!?!?!?!

And THIS has NOT been posted...?!?!?!?!

A dreamer from Kansas...

I am currently watching the famous B&W early 1950's sci-fi film The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms . It's great. IMDB informs me that when the Beast (a dinosaur resurrected by atomic tests) invades Times Square and the masses flee in terror, in the background the marquee of The Palace Theater reads JULIE GARLAND - LIVE AND IN PERSON.

^ JUDY, not JULIE. Judith Crist, I must be drunk already and it's not even late. Shoot me, please.

Does Judy bite the dust, r412?

R409 also, Errol Flynn is there, in costume for That Forsyte Woman, maybe his only MGM film, Warners stalwart that he was. He and Alexis made about 4 films together there. I wonder if Errol and Judy ever chatted.

I wonder what kind of career Judy would have had at another studio.

The film isn't over yet, r414. I'm eagerly awaiting the other background marquees. Currently dear Cecil Kellaway is in a bathosphere to spy the monster and about to be eaten.

Oh wait, he just was. Fabulous film.

OMG, the monster is approaching Times Square and just ate a policeman who ran out of bullets. The terrified New York populace is running and screaming. Fabulous film!

R416 wasn't dear Cecil rumoured to Family?

"I wonder what kind of career Judy would have had at another studio."

MGM took a lot off of her. She was becoming more and more unprofessional and addicted to pills, but the studio tried to deal with it until it could deal with it no more. She was one of their biggest stars; her movies had made a lot of money so that's probably why MGM was inclined to put up with Judy's foibles. But finally enough was enough; her behavior during the filming of "Annie Get Your Gun" sealed her fate and MGM gave her her walking papers. She was 28 years old at the time. It has been remarked that probably no other studio would have kept her on as long as MGM did. Warners, for instance, probably would have fired her a lot earlier.

Yes, that's the common rumor, r419. And now the monster is eating the roller coasters in Coney island!

The Beast is over. God bless Ray Harryhausen and his mentor Willis O'Brien.

Back to Judy, please. Sorry for the distraction.

R403, you're nuts!

She was a racist.

She told a story on one of those talk shows and she said one of the Munchkin men asked her out to dinner. And Miss Gumm says "Well I couldn't tell him I didn't want to go because he is a midget so I said 'My mother wouldn't allow that'."

What a racist.

MGM were fools to fire her. Whatever it took to get her on the set and functioning, they should have done it. Her movies are the most remembered of all MGM movies nowadays. Annie Get Your Gun is not even considered among the great musicals of the 40's, but it would be if Judy were in it. Same with Royal Wedding and The Barkleys of Broadway. Both would have been terrific with Judy in the lead.

r424, you're a fucking idiot.

"Annie Get Your Gun" ran for thousands of performances on Broadway with Ethel Merman playing Annie. It is certainly considered a great Broadway musical.

"Whatever it took to get her on the set and functioning, [MGM] should have done it. "

They already had, for years. That was the problem.

Why is a musical only important if the film is successful? Example: South Pacific with Mitzi Gaynor.

After Judy's serious breakdown in 1946, MGM should have put her on a 1-picture-per-year schedule, rather than 2-pictures-per-year. She just didn't have the stamina for 2 pictures a year, especially considering the crash diet involved. Three months of intense filming, 1 month of intense publicizing, 8 months of rest. With that schedule, she might have kept going into the mid-50s. But the execs cared about THIS year's balance sheet, not five years from now. In the late 40s, MGM was experiencing serious financial difficulties, and Judy was one of their only certified box-office hits. They didn't think long-term, and the result was the hell she went through and put everybody else through.

Why shouldn't MGM have been obsessed with the bottom line? Actors and everybody else were employees and were expected to produce. The money execs were in New York, they weren't the creative people in Hollywood. Louis B Mayer answered to them.

Judy was no guarantee of success in a film either. The Pirate was seen as a failure. There was struggle at all studios, especially MGM, between old a new Hollywood...Judy, and soon LB Mayer himself would be out.

The failure of the Pirate was a big exception to Judy's string of hits at MGM. Part of the reason it failed is that she broke down during filming, so many of her scenes were cut. She was supposed to be the center of the film and instead was reduced to supporting player, which made everything seem off-balance. A happy and healthy Judy could have made Pirate a hit, but she was still mired in post-partum depression from Liza's birth. That depression would lead to her being institutionalized not long after the Pirate wrapped.

MGM only made a decent profit in 1948 because of Judy's hit with Easter Parade. They were eager to get her in front of the cameras as often as possible to swell the bottom line and keep their jobs. That makes sense from a money perspective, but not from a human or artistic perspective. Their focus on money to the exclusion of all else is why Judy burned out so young at MGM. They sacrificed future profits for the hope of short-term success, even knowing that their star couldn't keep up that kind of pace. Judy had her demons, but a lot of her MGM failures began and ended with the men in suits.

How old must one be to refer to films as “pictures.” Good God, I can smell the mothballs on some of you.

When Dore Schary came in, his main concern was the bottom line. He looked at which stars were 'trouble' and cost MGM money before their films was released. Judy, with her chronic lateness and problems, was #1 on the list. Her Freed unit musicals were expensive to make. If Judy had been assigned to the budget conscious but less prestigious musicals of the Cummings and Pasternak units, she might well have been kept on. "In The Good Old Summertime" was made by the laid-back Pasternak unit without Freed or Minnelli hovering over Judy. Without the pressure, Garland was on-time, a pleasure to work with got the picture in the can under-budget (the film also grossed a fortune). An incredulous Freed went up to Pasternack afterwards and asked him " No problem with Garland?! How'd you do it?" "Simple, Arthur, " said Pasternack ; "We treated her like a human being."

It is interesting to compare Judy's box-office ranking with her only other musicals rival, Betty Grable. Grable (who was a lifelong Judy fan since they were cast members of "Pigskin Parade") . was the biggest female box-office star of the '40s and her uninterrupted run in the top-ten from 1942 to 51 is unmatched by any other female star, even today. But Zanuck kept in mostly unmemorable cookie-cutter films that were usually remakes of earlier box-office hits ("Wabash Avenue" was a remake of "Coney Island"), He loved a formula and believed the public liked familiar stories they had seen before - and he was proven right by his run of Grable hits. The Grable films that diverged from the usual ("The Shocking Miss Pilgrim" "The Beautiful Blonde From Bashful Bend" and "That Lady In Ermine") were big disappointments at the box-office. ("Ermine" was released the same year as "The Pirate") . While Grable was very low-key and very good in "Pilgrim" (but did not show her famous legs). it would have been a perfect movie for Judy who would have made it a hit.

[quote]Annie Get Your Gun is not even considered among the great musicals of the 40's, but it would be if Judy were in it.

Did you even see the footage? She looks so strung-out.

It would have been a great embarrassment to both her and MGM if that movie had been made with Judy Garland.

R434 it's contributions like yours that help make DL what it is.

[quote]her uninterrupted run in the top-ten from 1942 to 51 is unmatched by any other female star, even today.

Doris Day was in the top ten just as often, and was No. 1 for four years, so she actually more than matched Grable.

Judy was fantastic in In the Good Old Summertime, but after that she needed a break. Rather than giving her a proper break, they threw her right into Annie Get Your Gun. She originally only did Summertime because pre-production on Annie wasn't ready yet, and they didn't want their major star sitting idle. Again, a sensitive and forward-thinking executive would have had Judy do EITHER Summertime OR Annie, not both. He also wouldn't have burdened Judy with drillmaster Busby Berkeley, who had already driven Judy to collapse on a previous picture. But their thinking was, "Annie is a major picture, Judy is under contract for 2 pictures a year, and Buzz is a proven talent as a director. Judy is just going to have to get over her problems." But Judy couldn't get over her problems, and MGM should have realized it.

You are correct, but, Grable had a solid nine year streak with no absent years. Different way of looking at the charts. Certainly Doris is better remembered by far.

It's an odd list, often at variance to how certain stars are ranked today:

Judy was only in the top ten for 1940, 1941 and 1945. Crawford was top 10 for seven straight years from 1930 (#1) to 1936 and nothing in the '40s and '50s. David 1941, 1941 and 1944. Katherine Hepburn appears once in 1969. Marilyn in only 1953, 1954, 1956. Audrey Hepburn - zero. Rita Hayworth - zero,

r440: that's Arthur Freed for you. The greatest producer of movie musicals and a staggeringly insensitive creep.

I love you R438!

The pirate was a flop because Vincent Minnelli made Gene the sexy one in the picture and audiences could pick up on the homoerotic undertones. Judy was convinced they were having an affair and that added to her break-down

There's a long-standing rumor that Judy slashed her wrists (or maybe she cut her throat--she did both multiple times) after finding Vincente in bed with Kelly.

My question is, who was topping? Because both men both seem like total nelly queens to me.

Screw the old bat!

She's on her mantle!!

I'm the real Queen Of The Gays!!!

r445 Did Liza know about this?

R448 Liza was too ambitious to care.

She abandoned her mother when it suited her.

To be fair, Mama was not the most stable......

Nobody could be around Judy in the last years, it wasn't Liza's fault. Teenage Lorna had a nervous breakdown and had to go live with her father. Even Judy's closest friends couldn't deal with her anymore.

Post-64 Hong Kong overdose Judy was on a downward spiral nobody could have gotten her out of. If a good fairy had come along, paid all her debts, and given her an income for life, she probably would have just drunk/drugged herself to death that much faster. I think she had serious brain damage from that HK coma that never got diagnosed.

[quote] If a good fairy had come along

The last thing Judy needed was another husband.

"Did you even see the footage? She looks so strung-out."

She looked terrible in that footage of her in "Annie Get Your Gun" and not just because she was addicted to drugs and mentally ill. She was SO wrong for that role. I guess MGM thought it was a good idea; AGYG was this spectacular musical and Judy was their greatest musical star so starring her in AGYG would be perfect, wouldn't it? Wrong! Brassy, combative and belligerent (the character of Annie Oakley was all of those things) was not something could very well pull off. It was plain to see that, despite her musical talent, she was totally miscast as Annie Oakley.

Judy in Annie

Judy as Helen Lawson!

Judy's recording of You Can't Get a Man With a Gun is great. How can anybody say it's wrong? It gives you a glimpse of what she might have done with the role had she been well. But she needed a year off at that point to have done the film.

The problem with the Pirate is its dreadful score. Maybe Porter's worst. Honestly MGM should have asked for its money back. Only Be A Clown at the end is good. But the picture(or is it talkie?) is a visual feast. Really MGM at its technicolor production peak. Everybody must have been popping the benzadrine like tic tacs.

I think "Mack the Black" (and Judy is sexy with it) and "Love of My Life" are fine songs. "Nina" is ok and anyway Kelly's ass is the focus.

Love of My Life is Porter trying for a romantic standard and failing terribly. Did Ella ever record it? No. And Mack the Black on repeated viewings is tiresome. Nina gets by because of the terrific bolero arrangement and Alton's choreography. And yes Kelly's thighs and ass.

I never though Judy was right for the part of Annie and most other things

Lena sang Love of my Life very well in this live Cole Porter medley - go to 3:30

Annie was tailored for Merman, so she's brash and bombastic. Rose was tailored for Merman, so she's brash and bombastic. In truth, neither lady was brash and bombastic in real life. Calamity Jane was tailored for Doris and it works. Yet Doris doing Annie's songs really doesn't, though you'd think it would. I just don't think Judy was right for a gun totin' hoyden. Betty Lynn would have made a good Annie.

Judy was all wrong for Annie. She looked tiny and fragile, not a bit like a spunky country girl who could kick your ass.

Plus shame on hair, make-up and costuming for making Judy look more appropriate for a Tarzan set than Annie Hideous.

Judy might have been able to make the part of Annie her own, if she'd been healthy and rested. Just because Merman played the part a certain way doesn't mean it was the only way to play it.

Ethel was bombastic for real, with a mouth like a truck driver.

Judy was just to sophisticated to be associated with something like.....

^too

Betty Hutton was a perfect spunky country girl who could kick your ass. With all of that plus her alcoholism, mental illness, bad husbands, I'm amazed that she's not a DL fave.

If the movie had been made just a few years later, Debbie Reynolds would have been an interesting Annie.

I suppose she did do that part when she made Unsinkable Molly Brown.

Judy was not right for Annie and it's not one of the movies I'm sorry she didn't finish. I'd be much more interested to see her completed Royal Wedding and Barkleys of Broadway. I'd also loved to have seen her do Carousel with Sinatra and play Julie in Show Boat.

It is a shame that she never got to do a film with Sinatra.

She is a DL fave, r468.

R462 You don't have to be Merman to excel at Annie Get Your Gun, neither Bernadette Peters or Reba McEntire are as bombastic as the Merm, but both did very well with the part on Broadway.

Reba McEntire was excellent; Bernadette Peters, despite her Tony Award, was terrible.

Bernadette wasn't terrible, she was miscast. Have Reba take a go at Dot.

It wasn't only that Bernadette was misca; st, she didn't even try. Reba gave a very accomplished performance in a role she was certainly suited for and there aren't many roles she could do...Molly Brown? Sally Adams?

R476 Her concert version of South Pacific, made Glenn Close's tv-movie version, look even worse, than it already did.

What's with this "will never be forgotten" shit? Everyone is forgotten eventually. It's okay. Judy's had a pretty good damn run already.

R478 The fact that you can google Antinous and he has a wikipedia article, proves he is not forgotten.

heh, fair enough r479. As long as there is a Wikipedia, Judy Garland will have an entry. But people fade from consciousness, even super famous people. It's not that terrible. And it's all very generational. I don't know or care about 99.9 percent of 20-something celebrities, and they don't care that I don't care.

why commemorate her death instead of her birth or career milestones? Grief porn isn't cute.

They're all tangled up together, r481. Her death was tragic, but that just opens up a whole new book.

R480 I think it is more individual than generational. I know many people who only care about the people of their life times. But, even though I was born in the 1980s, I know more about the stars of the 1930s-60s than many of the contemporary stars of my lifetime.

Well, there is something about older celebrities. I have that thing too. I think it's the younger celebrities that are innately boring to some of us. I love the 30s and 40s stars, although I never lived then. It's the modern stars, and especially this whole influencers thing I just don't care about. I don't think it's about older stars. I think it's about younger stars.

Some people transcend time. Think Shakespeare, Mozart, et al. I believe Judy is of that ilk.

Continue to rest in peace, beautiful lady.

I like her too, r485. but come on. and seriously, do you care? do you care if she is literally timeless. She was awesome in her day, and a lot of us still like her. That's pretty good still.

The MGM luncheon was likely in January or February of 1949. Wallace Beery died in April of '49 and he looks awful here. It's probably just after "In the Good Old Summertime" wrapped or was about to wrap as Buster Keaton is there and he worked on that film with Judy. Howard Keel is introduced and he was signed to MGM for "Annie Get Your Gun" but perhaps they were just about to begin shooting, clearly he has not fallen off his horse and broken his ankle which happened the first week of March of that year.

Just was supposed to have a vacation after wrapping "Summertime", but was coaxed into starting pre-production on "Annie" with her nemesis Busby Berkeley who was fired before Judy herself was canned. Oh, what might have been. Judy looks just fine here and seems in fine spirits, but that would soon end. I think she sounds great on the pre-recorded score which they managed to finish before actual shooting began.

Judy will never be forgotten.

[quote]If the movie had been made just a few years later, Debbie Reynolds would have been an interesting Annie. I suppose she did do that part when she made Unsinkable Molly Brown.

Reynolds did a major West Coast revival of Annie in 1977 for the Los Angeles Civic Opera that was intended for Broadway. It's a shame it never got there because the show was directed and choreographed by Gower Champion and received great reviews. It did a short tour and Harve Presnell was Frank Butler. There must be some sort of story about why it never reached New York.

Judy Garland is LUCKY that the majority of people alive only know her from her MGM movie career. She was the sweet ingenue with the great singing voice. The end.. You have to be over 60 to actually remember the train wreck she was in the 1960s, and how decrepit she looked and acted in her last three or so years. Of course one can look it up, but it's nothing like remembering it. A few years before her book, Lorna Luft was on a morning talk show insisting that the "tragic Judy Garland" everyone talked and wrote about never existed - it was a complete fabrication.

If only Antinous had been cast as Dorothy, r478!

I am often surprised that film is considered far more important here than tv or Broadway There are many way to play Annie. So why say Garland was not right for the film. TCM is only one channel

How many ways are there to play a country hick, r492?

[quote] why commemorate her death

Whether accurate or not, it's wrapped up with the Stonewall event, so there's some notability to her death.

It's also sad how her life ended, regardless of what one thought of her or her talents. It seems to be a very American life and death, and perhaps the first real example of the build them up, tear them down celebrity culture having such a massive and visible impact on one person's life.

Now it's a cliche, of course, as many A&E Biographies and MTV Behind the Musics have told us. Drugs and the spotlight don't have a positive impact on a human's psyche. But we were more surprised then, I guess.

R490, you are correct. I think her children insist all the time that their mother was not tragic because they do not want her to be remembered that way. But yeah, I knew she was a mess when I saw her on TV in the 1960s. That said it was in the 70s that I really understood how talented she was- what a great singer she was. Lorna wrote a book about her mother (and her sister and herself) which was about substance abuse, all of them- the most awful being their Mom with Liza a close second. What Judy's kids went through with their Mom was harrowing.. On the other hand, it is clear she loved them and they knew it. Some people grow up in sober homes and never really have confidence that they were loved. Anyway- much of her life was harrowing- non stop in the last 7 years but pretty ubiquitous all her life. I have always wondered what the voice would have been like without the drugs, booze and cigarettes.

Mama died on the schitter, no friendsch or shupport!

Lorna has a son and a daughter who never went into showbiz and now have kids of their own. Apparently the addiction issues didn't happen to them.

" On the other hand, it is clear she loved them and they knew it."

Why do people always "credit" Judy with this? She loved her children, great, you're supposed to love your children. However, she was a lousy and neglectful mother, really bad. I realize she was in no condition to be a good one, but please. Parenting is a hard job, much harder that "loving" your children.

r490: Just my opinion: I think with the exceptions of "The Wizard of Oz" and "Meet Me In St. Louis" and possibly "Easter Parade", Garlands MGM career is mostly forgotten. It was the generation of 60+ fans who knew the Judy of "Broadway Melody of 1938", "Ziegfeld Girl", "Babes on Broadway", "Presenting Lily Mars" and "The Harvey Girls", and those devoted movie musical fans are dying out. IMHO, Judy is perhaps best known today for "A Star Is Born" and her TV show numbers.

Judy's movies are frequently shown on TCM; I think a lot of people see them. A lot of young people have an interest in movies and movie stars of previous eras, and Judy Garland was one of the biggest, most legendary of them all. I like a lot of her film, but I find the ones she did with Mickey Rooney the most fun. Frequently featuring elaborate numbers choreographed by Busby Berkeley, they're classics of their time. And she and Mickey Rooney were a perfect movie couple, ideally suited to each other. They were even the perfect size for each other!

Drunk Sissy and Mean Sissy gave me this to remind me of Mama.

I like it.

Judy was the sole breadwinner for a lot of sponges: her birth family, her children, and three parasite 'husbands'. no wonder she was broke

I was a fan of Wizard of Oz of course, and always found her an interesting figure. But it wasn't until my early 40s that I finally really "got" her. I'd fallen for a guy, and things couldn't work out. I saw her sing The Man That Got Away on YouTube, and I cried. This woman understood. From that day forward I've been a huge fan. She got us, and now I get her.

Rest in Peace, dear Judy.

Liza paid of her mother's debts (including some fake ones)- I wouldn't call her a sponge.

R503

MARY!

Liza paid off as many debts as she could, and then Frank Sinatra paid the rest.

R502 and don't forget me!

R506, Sinatra didn't pay shit. He lent his personal plane to Liza and the family. Once.

Garland had worn out all her welcomes. Nobody owed her a thing. Liza is not even a real person, it's all an ACT.

Fatty Arbuckle is I would say as far as we know the first big build em up bring em down instance of celebrity culture.

I heard Sinatra offered to pay Judy's funeral expenses but Liza decided to take on the responsibility herself. As far as I know her worthless gay husband Mickey Deans paid for nothing.

Hopefully, Mickey died of the AIDS- painfully.

I just went to see the "world premiere" of Sid & Judy, an upcoming documentary, at the Frameline FIlm Festival tonight in S.F. I was great! Look for it when it comes out soon on Showtime.

Kinda impressed this thread made it so far.

When I was a gay teen I bought a double album called "Judy Garland: From the Decca Vaults" and this was either the first or second song on it. Imagine, just fourteen years old. I've loved Judy ever since.

Gen Xer here. It was 1996. My neighborhood in Boston was suffering through a series of brownouts and blackouts during a brutal August heatwave. On this particular night, it was 2 am, 85 degrees, and 90% humidity when the power went out. I fucking hate the heat so I grabbed my Sony CD Walkman and the case of CDs and went to sit out on the front porch for some air. I flipped through the CDs - completely sick of all my stuff so searched through my boyfriend's lame collection and decided on Judy's Carnegie Hall just for kicks. I never understood the "Judy and the gays" affinity. Well....

IT BLEW ME THE FUCK AWAY! Had no idea what a powehouse she was. Huge fan ever since. Greatest entertainer of her era.

In that 1949 MGM party clip I wouldn't have recognized her if others hadn't pointed out she was next to Clark Gable. She looks small, imploded, vague and somewhat deformed. No wonder Louie B. called her "my little hunchback."

Judy's figure was terrifically awkward for an actress: broad shoulders, long legs, big boobs, no waist, no neck, no ass. At 4'11, if she ever got much over 100 pounds, she looked fat on camera. Her facial features were wonky, too, except for her lovely eyes, and we all know cameras hate disymmetry.

It was a great build for a singer, though, giving her a sturdy barrel of a middle that supported her lungs and diaphragm. Her large, irregular features were more striking in person as well. If she'd decided to go the Broadway route from the beginning, and never worried about being camera ready, she might have had a very different life. The stage schedule suited her night owl ways, as well.

Not big boobs, R518. If you think you were seeing that, it was a facsimile created by the brassiere.

When she was at her natural weight, she was somewhat busty. This is Judy as a pudgy teenager, without any studio magic applied.

Here she is in a Star is Born, in a fairly revealing outfit (for Judy): Broad shoulders, busty, no waist, long legs.

Darling, those were stuffed bras.

Sweetie, clearly not in the R520 picture. She even sags a bit: Those tits are real.

Judy was no Jayne Mansfield or Marilyn, but her breasts as a teenager were big enough that they had to strap them down for her to play Dorothy. Flat-chested she was not.

Another angle on Judy in the plaid playsuit as a teenager. No stuffing would have worked in that top.

R525 You can really understand why she got an inferiority complex, looking like that on the MGM lot.

As a young girl, the fact that you have more talent than all the beauties would be of small consolation.

Yep, poor Judy, sitting there looking like a perfectly normal teenager with puppy fat, sharing classes and screen time with Ann Rutherford and Ann Rutherford. No wonder she had no self-esteem.

I meant LANA TURNER and Ann Rutherford.

How lovely Judy looks in r521's pic.

"The Wizard of Oz is just another old, forgotten movie to kids nowadays."

It's playing on TCM at this very moment. And the local cineplex where I live shows screenings of classic movies, among them, "The Wizard of Oz." I'm sure that parents take their kids to see it. I'm sure that parents taking their kids to see TWOZ is considered a special event. The movie is timeless. You sound pretty damn stupid.

Damnit. I missed it on TCM. I'm crushed.

r531 it's such a forgotten movie that TCM may NEVER show it again!! Hell, it may never even air on TV again, it's such an old, irrelevant movie!

They only show it once a year, as far as I can tell. They showed in last June.

The cutting of the grand "Return To Emerald City" sequence where they bring back the broom to cheers and a reprise of "Ding Ding The Witch is Dead" is much missed. The film needs that catharsis. Instead the film sharply cuts from Dorothy receiving the broom to a view of everybody walking down the corridor.

Breaks my heart that I missed it.

[quote]How lovely Judy looks in [R521]'s pic.

She looks like someone's mom, after smoking a pack of smokes.

R521's photo looks like a strung-out Lindsay Lohan trying to be glamorous.

Be quiet. Judy was recovering from a drug infused alcoholic bender. She looks effervescent in that pic.

Judy was shitting barbituates while that photo was taken. Given that, she looks radiant.

[quote] Kinda impressed this thread made it so far.

Me too.

Judy Garland has always been a fascinating topic that can be talked about endlessly. It's entertaining to discuss her. She was such a legendary fuck up.

r536, r537, r539 are all the same cunty lunatic talking to himself. Mercifully blocked. Thanks for showing your true colors, bitch.

R542 yeah all it takes is one really unfunny loon to ruin a thread.

Judy was miscast in The Wizard Of Oz. They should have gone with original choice Shirley Temple. Temple was a guarantee of movie success at that time.

r544 Temple was tested but wasn't much of a singer.

I am a Huge fan of "Judy at Carnegie Hall." And her tv shows in 1964 when she sang with the orchestra and no guests.

r544, either you're a goddam idiot or just a shit stirrer.

I agree with a couple of posters above on the "discovering Judy" at a later age.

I was in my late 20s when I bought 2 JG box sets ("The Complete Decca Masters" and "The One and Only") and listened to them completely. I was delighted to hear her pre-Oz recordings and her early 1960s recordings.

This happened to me with Streisand's "Just for the Record" box set, too, listening to her 1960s recordings with which I was rather unfamiliar at the time.

I thought Judy was rarely miscast in her films. MGM may have driven her literally insane, but they knew how to use her.

The only movie she made that might possibly have been better with somebody else was The Clock. Otherwise, no one could have done the roles she did better than she did them. June Allyson in Meet Me In St Louis? Charming, but no. Deanna Durbin or Shirley Temple in Wizard of Oz? The film wouldn't be a classic. Betty Grable in The Harvey Girls? Meh. And there was absolutely nobody who could have done The Pirate, a film I've come to appreciate more and more over the years.

Judy was a fantastic actress. If she's been more mentally stable in the 1950s, she could have transitioned into great character roles which wouldn't have required her to lose tons of weight, and thus helped keep her off the pills. She was desperate to be thin, and not just for her acting career--critics writing about her live performances in the 1950s constantly called her plump or matronly or some other euphemism for fat. It drove her nuts. MGM had done such a number on her self-esteem that she could never just say 'fuck em' and embrace being a size 14.

She was great as a German hausfrau in "Judgement at Nuremberg"; she was nominated for an supporting actress Oscar for her small role. Montgomery Clift was in that movie too, playing a mentally disabled man, and he too was nominated for a supporting actor Oscar. Wouldn't it have been great if Judy and Monty had both won Oscars that year? They were certainly more deserving than George Chakiris and Rita Moreno.

Judy would have been much better off if she'd gone the Broadway/stage actress route from a young age rather than trying to fit into the Hollywood mold. That wasn't really her fault, as her parents moved to CA and her mother pushed her towards the Hollywood studios. If she'd been a different type of person, she would have told MGM to fuck off when her contract was up in 1945 and headed to NYC, but at that point she was married to Minnelli, the ultimate MGM company man (and flaming queen). The NYC plan was what she wanted to do, and she bitterly regretted reupping her contract and marrying Minnelli. A different decision in the mid-40s might have changed her entire future.

Truly! She might have originated so many roles on Broadway.

It's better for the public that she was in Hollywood, rather than Broadway, as there is a record of her performances.

Yes, it killed her, but we benefit. And that's what matters.

"That wasn't really her fault, as her parents moved to CA and her mother pushed her towards the Hollywood studios."

Oh please! Little Judy needed no "pushing." She REALLY wanted to be a movie star. Imagine it; a young, plump, plain little girl, appearing in MOVIES and under contract to MGM studios no less, the studio with "more stars than there are in heaven." It must have been intoxicating to her. She didn't like the early morning calls and the long hours, but make no mistake about it, she loved her movie stardom.

Go to Broadway? Look, a great Broadway star like Mary Martin only had South Pacific, Peter Pan, The Sound of Music and I Do I Do. Then the roadshow of Hello Dolly. That's great, but limited, a film star does more. Plus, would bi-polar Judy be even ABLE to do a long running show? I think not. She'd have one hit, then fall into depravity and blame it on those awful stage producers who drove her too hard. Her gay fans would commiserate and say, she should have stayed in the movies!

Mary Martin was also successful in One Touch of Venus. And she brought Hello, Dolly to London after touring the United States and Asia. She was less successful in plays, like the revival of The Skin of Our Teeth.

I believe her star making role was in Cole Porter's Leave it to Me.. And Mary did receive Kennedy Center Honors in the 1980s, perhaps the first Broadway Musical performer to be honored

r553 Mama couldn't do Broadway so I schtepped in, baby... and I wasch a HIT!

Judy desperately wanted to do MAME on Broadway. Herman had written it for her. The producers wouldn't hire her.

Judy was UNINSURABLE, R560.

R556, I agree that little Judy enjoyed the fame and attention, but all her biographers also talk about how much she resented giving up her childhood. Also, since she was pushed into performing in public while still a toddler and was signed to MGM at 13, I don't think she was really of an age to judge what would make her truly happy. Mama Gumm did all the deciding, until Judy finally eloped with David Rose at age 19 to get away from her mother's control.

Judy was certainly unreliable as a stage performer by the late 60s, but in the mid-40s, prior to her serious breakdown in 1947, she was still fairly stable. With fewer pressures to look good for the camera and be up at the crack of dawn, as well as no gay husband or post-partum depression, Judy might have made a go of things in NYC. She could have come back to films when she was older and stronger--perhaps even in time for her to do A Star Is Born. Yes, we would have missed out on Easter Parade, In the Good Old Summertime, and Summer Stock, but we might have gotten Gypsy (what a Mama Rose she would have made), Hello Dolly, and Mame in return.

NOTHING wold have been different unless Judy got treatment for her mental illness, R562, and she didn't seem keen to do that.

Read this:

When I click on that link, there's nothing there.

BY STEVIE PHILLIPS MAY 21, 2015

Judy Garlands Former Manager Opens Up About the Legends Final Years

The “before the show” in Boston is still one of my most painful memories these 48 years later. We were staying at the Ritz Carlton hotel, at that time arguably the best hotel in the city. Judy had an elegant gold-and-white suite overlooking the Boston Common gardens and pond. She’d decided to dress in the suite that night, which was unusual because she disliked dressing at the hotel prior to any concert, and she gave me no reason why she was changing her routine. It meant, however, that I would have to return from the setup to the Ritz to collect her. At seven, I left the Boston Public Garden, went back to the hotel, went up to the suite to put together the Act II costume change, and as I stood asking her about taking additional eyelashes to the hall, she slit her left wrist with a razor, cutting deeply into an artery. The moment was made even grislier by the fact that when she made the cut she was looking at me and smiling.

I learned many things that night that I could have gone on through life never needing to know. One was that blood doesn’t leak out; it spurts, it arcs. I can see it still on the gold-and-white bedspread, on the flocked wall covering and matching drapes, and on me. I was wearing my new favorite outfit, my first-ever ensemble, a three-piece outfit manufactured by my husband’s uncle from whom I bought the most wonderful designer rip-offs wholesale. The fabric of my wool challis blouse matched the lining of my coat. I definitely loved it too much. That night when I walked into her room I thought I looked so snazzy. But all I see now is her blood all over my once-beautiful ensemble, on my skirt and coat. My hands. My hair. I stand there horrified at what has just happened to me. TO ME! Why am I feeling sorry for me and not for her? Because this was her normal! This is what she did. This is who she was. What a teacher she was. I was beginning to understand that these events were all about manipulation and control.

Judy’s suicidal episodes gave her power. With every horror, she became the center of “his” attention. “His attention” was owned by the man of the moment, David Begelman. She craved his love much more than the adoration of her fans. They were but strangers. It would soon be over for her—this episode—and she would go on to the next, but not so for me. I would never forget it. It would be seared into my memory, and I would be doomed to replay it forever. I still do.

Well, I could have gone the rest of my life not knowing that story as well. I feel it is a betrayal of those who know famous people to tell things like this.

It gives you an idea of how sick she was- how awful long term substance abuse can be. I read Stevie's book. It's incredible and I am quite certain absolutely accurate.

R562, Judy was a mess long before the late 40s. She was still young enough to rebound, that's all. She was only manageable in the 1950s while married to Luft who was tough enough to control her somewhat. She was briefly manageable in the early 60s under Begleman (sp?) until he screwed her and dropped out, but careened out of control when she lost her TV show and from then on it was day to day, gig to gig- stay one step ahead of the debts and find one more bridge not burned. She barely owned a small suitcase of clothes in the last few years and had no home. Still one of the greatest talents ever- one of a handful of singers of any genre for all time. Maria Callas simply called her the greatest singer in the world when she herself was in her prime. One wonders how the voice would have evolved from her youth if she was not an addict. She died at 47 barely able to speak much less sing. Streisand was pretty much at her vocal peak in her late 40s.

When Judy was fired from MGM she was only 28 years old. Some people thought it was cruel that MGM dumped her, but MGM put up with her shenanigans much longer than other studios would have. Judy was a pill addicted, mentally ill wreck who could not be depended on to get the job done. Getting rid of her was the only thing left to do.

R567, Lorna told lots of stuff in her autobiography. She had every right to, even if you can't stomach it.

She had a lot of issues as a teenager and young adult, but she was still relatively sane. Judy really began to come apart after she married Minnelli in 1945. That was when the self-harm and overdoses began. Some of it was post-partum depression from having Liza in early '46, some of it the cumulative effect of years of overwork and overmedication, and some of it the pressure of being married to a gay man or at least a profoundly gay-leaning bisexual, just as her father was. All of this added up to her meltdown in 1947, and she was never the same after that.

I still maintain that if she'd told Hollywood, MGM, and Minnelli to go fuck themselves in 1945 and headed for Broadway, she might have come out much better in the long run. By 1950, when she finally did get out, it was too late. I agree that Sid Luft, though something of a grifter, was the only one of her husbands who ever came close to handling her and giving her something like stability. Too bad she couldn't see that, and chucked him for sexually ambiguous drifters like Mark Herron and Mickey Deans.

R572, you must mean " sexually ambiguous GRIFTERS like Mark Herron and Mickey Deans."

spam posted by shitbags at gaybar69 virus russian bullshit.com removed.

Does the above poster have a link for Callas saying Garland was the greatest singer? This fascinates me, because Callas and Garland both describe their childhoods as "stolen" and both hated their mothers for it.

I got my hands on a copy of Mel Torme's The Other Side of the Rainbow, which is about his 10 months working as the music supervisor on The Judy Garland Show. It's much, much better than its reputation. I heard Garland's family sued, but I can't figure out why. While it portrays Judy honestly, I think Torme was largely sympathetic. It's a well rounded portrayal of a legend in decline.

The most harrowing part is a frantic December 13, 1963, 4am call from Judy, who demands Torme come to her house to "save" her. He picks up a rambling and dishevelled Judy, and brings her to his home. Torme's wife puts her to sleep. She tells Mel that Judy had welts on her back as if she been beaten. Neither know what to make of it.

About two hours later, Glenn Ford (who Judy was seeing) shows up, after Mel has left. He yells at Torme's wife "what have you DONE?!" and is generally accusatory. He whisks Judy away.

They were supposed to tape the Christmas show that day, and Judy was nowhere to be found. They're about to scrap the show (Lorna and Joey were in studio ready to go.) Suddenly, as word is being passed around for everyone to go home, Judy bursts in the Artist's Entrance of Television City like Auntie Mame, and looking like a million bucks. Mel Torme was shocked to see her at all, let alone looking so well. She was in top form for that episode, and finally did what producers had been begging her to do- sing Over the Rainbow on the show. She sang it to Lorna and Joey, and it was a highlight of the series.

She never saw Glenn Ford again, and no one knows what happened there.

R575, loads of people say that, it isn't unique to those two.

It's totally possible that Judy took a belt and whipped her own back. She once went crying to Peter Lawford with small cuts all over her face, telling him that Mark Herron had come after her with a razor. The maid told Lawford later that Judy did it to herself. She was self-harming since at least the mid-40s. Anything for sympathy.

R578 Yes, the way Torme tells the story, that makes perfect sense. She was drinking and taking many pills and called Mel Torme at 4am with a sob story, and he needed to come over right away and help her. Her self harming is in keeping with her general demeanor that day, for sure.

What Torme describes is classic behavior, likely more recognized today than it was back then.

Garland fans say Torme's book is LIES, ALL LIES!

Considering what has come out since he wrote the book in 1970, it's positively tasteful and restrained. I expected fireworks during the Streisand episode, which I'd read in some other biography there had been. But Torme says the show went very smoothly. He even credits Garland with having come up with the idea for the Happy Days Are Here Again/Get Happy mash up, when he very easily could have taken credit.

I think it gives a very full portrait of who she was. Not someone it was easy to have any kind of relationship with, that's for sure. But dedicated, at that point, anyway, to being "Judy" for the audience. I watch her Garland show tapes differently now. It was all a calculated performance. She knew how to sing, and she knew how to be "Judy."

Tormé was an asshole for betraying Judy with that book. He later wrote an introduction to it claiming they didn't know about addiction in those days. Fuck him.

"Tormé was an asshole for betraying Judy with that book."

Oh, please. He didn't fucking "betray" her. He just told his side of the story. And I believe everything he said.

Mel Torme is writing about her from his point of reference, which was mostly confirmed by all the books that followed .

Someone I know claimed that he met Mickey Deans right after Judy's death, and that they dated for a few years. He always thought Mickey killed Judy "because she was a pain in the ass."

Before I read the book, I had no reason no to believe that Mel Tormé was in the wrong. After having read it, all I can say is that all of what he wrote rang true, and for sure has been corroborated many times over in subsequent biographies. I went to see that one-woman show about Judy at the Ahmanson starring Tracie Bennett a few years ago. THAT I felt was a complete insult to the memory of Judy Garland. Showing her crawling around on the floor, barking like a dog, and pretending to pee- just gross. Mel Tormé was completely respectful and sympathetic. I think the book's reputation suffered for being the first one to be truthful about her life.

Early in the book, Tormé goes to see Judy at the Palace in the early '50s. He's blown away, and visits her in her dressing room. He tells her he loved it so much, he's coming back next week. Judy strongly advises against it. She tells him it will shatter the illusion. He didn't get what she was saying in the moment. He goes to see her again the next week, and THEN he understands. Many of the moments that seemed so natural and spontaneous happened the same exact way the second time. At some point, while singing Over the Rainbow, she becomes so overwhelmed by the memories and emotions that tears started falling. In the second performance, it happens at the exact same moment in the song, in the exact same way. He goes backstage to greet her, she takes a look at him and says "Well, now you know." Tormé tries to play it off, but he understood, and she knew he understood.

I think this is essentially what happens to him again a decade later when he takes the job on her show, writ large. And it's pretty much the experience the book reader gets. NOT that Judy is a particularly bad person, but that what you see with her in public, what she allowed you to see, was all performance. As you can see in movies like Judgement at Nuremberg, in addition to her amazing screen presence, she was a fantastic actress.

From this clip, you can see her go in and out of " Judy"- I imagine she'd be horrified at the notion of the public seeing this clip. Sort of reminds me of that Debbie Reynolds/Carrie Fisher HBO doc- "Debbie" was a put on, but it was VERY important to Debbie Reynolds that no one know it was.

I highly recommend the Tormé book to any Judy Garland fan. I was able to borrow it from the Internet Archive site for two weeks.

Forgot the clip.

I agree, R586. I still have Torme's book - I bought it at Doubleday in Sept 1970.

I have a little paperback copy of Torme's book. I think I got it for 25 cents at a library book sale.

R588 and R589 it's pretty good, right? Mel Tormé is far from being a perfect person, like Judy, and you, and me. I'm sure there are instances of him being an unreliable narrator because that's human nature. But overall, I believe it's about as truthful and clear a portrait of Judy Garland from the late '50s to the mid-60s that we'll ever see. Too bad the family sued, because I'd bet if Lorna read it now, she'd find it fair and sympathetic. I sense nothing at all malicious in his writing.

R585, if Deans had anything to do with Judy's death, I'd bet it would be more a matter of depraved indifference: He knew she'd overdosed and didn't call the doctor in time. Over the years, Liza, Sid, Mark, and Lorna (among others) saved Judy dozens of times by calling the ambulance and getting her stomach pumped when she'd had too many pills. If Deans was sick of her, maybe he just didn't make the call.

But that's speculation, and it's the only one I see as making sense. Otherwise, there was no reason for him to murder Judy: Anyone with eyes could see that in the 1969, her time was very limited. She looked twice her age.

"Too bad the family sued..."

I don't recall any lawsuit. Can someone produce a link or is this just some fan fantasy? You can't liable the dead. I do remember Glenn Ford mouthing off on TV a year or two after Torme's book. I liked the book.

R591, Mickey Deans was probably passed out drunk or drugged when Judy died, he was also a user. This episode was like dozens of others when she didn't die or necessarily need medical help.

Another insiders look at Garland that her fans hate, Heartbreaker by John Meyer, published in 1983. This is about his relationship and adventures with her in 1968. Eventually he got the Hong Kong flu and couldn't cater to her, she dumped him and went with the next guy who could. That may have been Deans, I can't remember. I recommend it.

The Mike Douglas show!

This JoAnn Worley commercial is giving me LIFE!

In one of those TV archives videos on YouTube Bob Mackie talks about Judy Garland. The first thing he said about her was "Judy was a mess, basically." He goes on and says the things that everybody says; she was incredibly talented, but "so unprofessional, addicted to so many things and she was SO nuts." As for dressing her he said it was difficult because "she had a very odd figure, it would be almost impossible for her to go buy clothes in the store. She was only 4'11, which was amazingly short, and those high, high heels and long legs for her height and a very short body, full breasted, and so it was hard to dress her, I mean you could never buy clothes that would really look great on her."

Mel Tormé is known in the business as being a huge asshole. He was shunned after writing that book and paid for it dearly by having acquaintances snub him in public because of it. Tormé refers to gays as "odd fellows" and quotes someone in the book as saying that Judy was "queen of the fags." So he's certainly no friend of ours. And he was no friend of Judy's. He was hired to do a job and betrayed her by making public private moments that should not have been made public. There are people in the book who have disputed their characterization, Lena Horne among them, who denied that things happened the way he described them and said that she and Judy always got along and were old friends from their MGM days. In other words, take Tormé with a big grain of salt. He was trying to sell books, after all. The more sensational he made it, the more publicity it got. After it was published, Liza said something like "It's always interesting to see what vermin crawls out from under the rocks after somebody dies and isn't around to defend themselves."

R595, yes, Torme was a huge asshole. But he was NOT shunned after the book. Lena Horne made no comment, none. Post a link to back-up any of your claims. THERE ARE NONE. There are fucking none. Now go away.

Any elder eldergays from Boston who remember the iconic "Tex" the waitress who worked the Boston gay bar scene for nearly 60 years? She was supposedly close with Judy for many years.

Back in the 80s she used to tell me stories of how she and Judy became good friends and Judy would always visit when Tex was waitressing at the gay bar Punch Bowl. She said she and Judy had bonded because they both married gay men and were more relaxed and themselves in the company of the gays. Tex said that even in the 50s drag balls were held at the Punch Bowl and were apparently a big event. She said Judy would sometimes try to book an engagement in town just to get a peek at the queens in their ball gowns which she thought was hysterical and delightful. Tex told me that after the Punch Bowl closed for the night, she and Judy would literally run down the street laughing hoping not to be seen on their way to Napolean's Club with an entourage of handsome young men scampering behind. The Napolean's management would let Judy have the place as a private party where they'd hang at the piano bar til sun came up singing. She said Judy shone in small venues like that and she never ever so anyone captivate an audience like Judy who'd have them sobbing or laughing or pining. Don't know how true it is but Tex said the best performances Judy gave were intimate engagements like that surrounded by the love of her gay friends and fans.

I was a club kid and wasn't a Judy fan back then so sort of just smiled politely and nod but now I hate myself for not talking to Tex more about it. If anybody remembers Tex and knows more about her decades long friendship with Judy, please share your stories. Sadly, most who knew Tex and her fascinating life are gone.

r596, you seem to have a lot personally invested in the storyline of Judy as presented by Tormé. Do you think this thread is your property, and you're allowed to tell people what to say and how to act? Talk about a cunt.

Yes, R594, I remember reading that the costumers on Judy's TV show had to employ all sorts of tricks to make her look good in the costumes, including sewing butt pads into all the dresses, since she had no ass at all. Also, Judy had a habit of stealing clothes from her jobs--it was a big issue on A Star Is Born, when she would take the costumes to wear for social occasions BEFORE they had been used on camera, and then ruin them, so something else had to be substituted during shooting.

New thread up!