Hello and thank you for being a DL contributor. We are changing the login scheme for contributors for simpler login and to better support using multiple devices. Please click here to update your account with a username and password.

Hello. Some features on this site require registration. Please click here to register for free.

Hello and thank you for registering. Please complete the process by verifying your email address. If you can't find the email you can resend it here.

Hello. Some features on this site require a subscription. Please click here to get full access and no ads for $1.99 or less per month.

Making of Game of Thrones special on HBO

I searched! Don’t yell at me if another thread exists. I tried.

Anyway, there’s a making-of-the-last-season special on HBO right now and it is boring as hell. It’s so annoying.

The table read was a little bit interesting because you got some insight into the actors’ real personalities and relationships. Emilia Clarke seemed weirdly personally affected by the plot points. Kit too, but more sincerely so. It was funny to watch Sophie/Sansa laugh at him for being so emotional.

But that’s it. The rest of this soecial has been B roll of crew members doing things with props, but not doing much with them. I can only guess the point of this is to show how tedious making the show is. No wonder Dan B seems so depressive in his interviews.

by Anonymousreply 577October 2, 2019 3:44 AM

Just restarted season one. God this show holds up well on a rewatch. And it was very gay in season one. Think they weren’t sure who the audience would be. Lots of dick.

by Anonymousreply 1May 27, 2019 1:58 AM

But never the dicks of who I wanted to see. I wanted Robb or Jorah's not Theon or peasants.

by Anonymousreply 2May 27, 2019 2:02 AM

Looks shit. I'm not surprised Emilia had a meltdown after what they did to her character. She's going to be identified with Daenerys for the rest of her life and they literally turned an iconic heroine into a genocidal maniac in the penultimate episode!!! Remember, Game of Thrones stars are glorified soap opera actors who are identified more with their roles than who they actually are. That's why how the public perceive their characters is so crucial to their future prospects.

by Anonymousreply 3May 27, 2019 2:03 AM

This doc is boring.

by Anonymousreply 4May 27, 2019 2:08 AM

Why did HBO ever think audiences would care about the below the line people to this extent? Yeah, it's great seeing the scope of it all and wrangling all of these extras, but no one's here for that.

by Anonymousreply 5May 27, 2019 2:10 AM

A six to eight minute long version of this would suffice.

I’ve had sufficient.

by Anonymousreply 6May 27, 2019 2:11 AM

Yes, please show us Bran in a bonnet eating craft services.

by Anonymousreply 7May 27, 2019 2:12 AM

The stuntman who played the Night King enjoying his celebrity status for a minute or two was a nice bit. Good for him.

by Anonymousreply 8May 27, 2019 2:25 AM

R8 are you enjoying the documentary? It is making me feel stoned or something. It’s so zzzzz.

by Anonymousreply 9May 27, 2019 2:26 AM

[quote][R8] are you enjoying the documentary? I

It would have made a fun 30 minute YouTube video, but no, there's not much to it. I was expecting some interviews with the cast, but I guess that's not happening.

by Anonymousreply 10May 27, 2019 2:30 AM

It is really poor quality for HBO. And it’s about an HBO production. Some exec’s kid must have been given this job.

by Anonymousreply 11May 27, 2019 2:32 AM

I'm strangely into the guy who is in charge of the fake snow, mostly because he's so into fake snow and I admire that.

by Anonymousreply 12May 27, 2019 2:34 AM

R3, quite honestly I don't like Emilia Clarke's acting that much, she was terrible in Terminator: Genisys, but she had two brain aneurysms while filming GoT so I tend to think she's just happy to be able to function and even be alive. It sometimes puts things into perspective when you almost die, and in her case twice.

by Anonymousreply 13May 27, 2019 2:41 AM

Emilia has been knocked so much for her acting. I feel a little bad for her. Sophie and Maisie turned out to be such strong performers. It’s interesting how it worked out; their characters won and their acting won, whereas Emilia and Danaerys...oof.

by Anonymousreply 14May 27, 2019 2:44 AM

[quote]The stuntman who played the Night King enjoying his celebrity status for a minute or two was a nice bit. Good for him.

I was worried one would recognize him. Glad that he was able to bask in the fan love.

by Anonymousreply 15May 27, 2019 2:50 AM

r14, Emilia will probably win the Emmy for her Season 8 work. That's the only consolation to come from the mess that last season turned out to be!!! Sophie has never been particularly impressive. Maisie was wonderful in the early seasons, particularly in those scenes with Charles Dance (the greatest actor the show ever had).

by Anonymousreply 16May 27, 2019 2:51 AM

Do you really think people hate Emilia Clarke for a fucked up final season of a tv show? She was actually quite believable as Daenerys even if I don't find her acting skills that great. People probably mostly remember how terrible the final season was and how badly the characters were written. Why should they blame an actor for that? I guess it helps that I've seen Clarke elsewhere as well and don't identify her only as Daenerys.

by Anonymousreply 17May 27, 2019 2:53 AM

I only know her as Danaerys Targaryen and she co-created a character I believed enough to invest in. She recently said she got a lot of confusing direction throughout the seasons, to play emotions that were out of context wirh the script (now realizing it would make more sense in retrospect), but that probably ended up creating some inauthentic performance. She’s fine. Both her character and the Jon Snow character were tedious at times because they were pretty one-dimensional. I think they were written that way. I think Kit is a good actor but I dreaded many of his scenes througout the series because or the character trajectory. Same with Dany. Sansa was a good girl-in-distress-turned-experienced-leader and Arya was usually a marvel as a traumatized tiny little girl who kicked ass. Danaerys didn’t have as much nuance.

by Anonymousreply 18May 27, 2019 2:58 AM

People don't hate the cast for the final season, if anything they feel sympathy for the cast and especially for Emilia because apparently when she was going through her health issues she clung to her character.

Dan and Dave screwed up on my aspects in the final season, but I don't believe in writing by committee. If every actor had a say in their storylines it would be chaos. You may not like it but what the writers say goes and actors should take comfort that if it goes wrong, people know it's not their fault. The only hassle is feeling as if they have to defend the characterization whilst during press but their jobs are to serve the writing and that's it.

by Anonymousreply 19May 27, 2019 3:01 AM

I don’t see Emilia winning an Emmy. Maybe another one for Peter Dinklage.

by Anonymousreply 20May 27, 2019 3:03 AM

The scene-by-scene writing was terrible. Really poor and disappointing. The dialogue and plotting and machinations were all poorly done.

In the end, I like how Danaerys and Sansa ended up. I loved Melisandre’s ending. Favorite part of this season.

I am on the fence about Brienne and Arya. If there was no chance HBO was going to spin off an Arya The Explorer series, then Arya should have died in the Kings Landing attack. It would have been a big emotional hit to everyone watching and it would have made Dany’s actions way more consequential. Oh well.

I don’t really mind how Cersei and Jamie ended up but getting there was contrived and the added Euron scene really ruined Jamie’s arc.

I never cared much about Jon so I have little opinion. He was fine. Whatever. Tyrion’s ending was fine. Sam...blah, don’t really care.

Bran was left way too open ended with too little insight into what the fuck is up with him.

I think almost all the actors are strong and created memorable performances.

I am pissed about the white walkers. That was terrible.

by Anonymousreply 21May 27, 2019 3:08 AM

Game Of Thrones is one of the most addictive but most flawed television shows in history. I personally think that makes it far more interesting and history will be kind to it. It has reached such peaks of excellence and such dismal, truly terrible lows that I think people will always be grappling with its legacy. Shows like The Sopranos and The Wire have already been forgotten by the mainstream, even though they were hailed as unanimously excellent. A show like Thrones, I feel, will be talked about for decades to come because it frustrated and inspired us in equal measure.

by Anonymousreply 22May 27, 2019 3:11 AM

Someone made gifs of some of the cast reactions during their final season reading.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 23May 27, 2019 3:16 AM

[quote]Shows like The Sopranos and The Wire have already been forgotten by the mainstream, even though they were hailed as unanimously excellent.

What? Absolute nonsense. The Sopranos especially has been having a rewatch renaissance in the last year or so.

Conleth Hill just tossing his script aside was everything that needed to be said. The rest was boring as fuck. They didn’t want to capture more of the cast lest their discomfort and dissatisfaction come through any more clearly.

by Anonymousreply 24May 27, 2019 3:18 AM

r21, Arya should have been the one to kill Cersei, they really fucked up her arc by having her kill the Night King. Really, killing Cersei would have made Arya's story come full circle as Cersei initiated the downfall of the Stark family and the traumas they all experienced. Cersei ended up dying not having to face the consequences of that, and it failed to be cathartic. Perhaps if Jaime had died a hero in Brienne's arms at the battle, Arya could have taken his face and tricked Cersei just before revealing herself as Arya and then dying with her under the Red Keep. As for Daenerys, I feel she should have been the one to kill the Night King, as it would have made her the saviour of Westeros and given her a kind of permission to destroy King's Landing, in the sense that she would then feel like she was untouchable or destined to rule Westeros. Then Jon killing Dany would have made them both fit into the Prince who was Promised myth... Dany, for ending the Long Night and Jon, for ending Dany's despotic regime.

by Anonymousreply 25May 27, 2019 3:18 AM

You people do know that D and D didn't make up how the characters ended up, that was George R.R. Martin. I don't mind how they ended up and I thought technically this season was really good. The problem was that the series needed at least 6 more episodes so the characters could have earned their endings. The writing was a litttle simplistic compared to the other seasons but all and all still an amazing show.

by Anonymousreply 26May 27, 2019 3:20 AM

quote][R8] are you enjoying the documentary? I

Interesting how everyone at the table is laughing and getting into Kit finding out he killed her, everyone except Dinklage who is sitting right next to Kit. Dinklage doesn't react at all, just sits there

by Anonymousreply 27May 27, 2019 3:32 AM

How dumb are Kit and Emilia not to have had some idea of what was coming?

by Anonymousreply 28May 27, 2019 3:34 AM

There is something about Emilia Clarke’s aneurysm story that screams bullshit.

Aneurysms are not exactly known for their oftentimes consecutive 100% recovery rates.

by Anonymousreply 29May 27, 2019 3:36 AM

People don’t fake brain aneurysms! Especially not 20-somethings. Good god.

by Anonymousreply 30May 27, 2019 3:38 AM

Conleth Hill with hair.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 31May 27, 2019 3:44 AM

Does anyone know why Tamzin Merchant asked to be released from the show after the pilot? I wonder if, in hindsight, she feels that was a poor decision. She seems to have a pretty solid career without. Certainly worked out in Emelia's favor. I'd really be curious to see Tamzin in the role of Daenerys. I imagine the character would have a totally different feel. Is the original pilot out anywhere for us to view?

by Anonymousreply 32May 27, 2019 4:01 AM

[quote]Does anyone know why Tamzin Merchant asked to be released from the show after the pilot? I wonder if, in hindsight, she feels that was a poor decision.

Sean Bean or someone else from the pilot hedged around it but said his assumption was because she just had a child or had small children and didn't want to be away from them.

by Anonymousreply 33May 27, 2019 4:04 AM

I like the doc, you really get to see just how much work goes into making this show. As much as people bashed the final season it's a GREAT achievement.

by Anonymousreply 34May 27, 2019 4:10 AM

[quote]Conleth Hill just tossing his script aside was everything that needed to be said

I better understand his frustration about Varys being sidelined and not having much to do past Season 6 more than I do his reaction to being killed off. How many characters have died on this show? This show is known for tits, dragons and killing off characters. He tried to explain in his EW interview that he expected a personal call since prior seasons that's how D&D let people know they were being killed off but this season they didn't do that. But even without the call, making it to the final season is a big deal.

Kit played himself because he should have read the script beforehand but no, he wanted to read it at the read-through and let everyone see him cry.

by Anonymousreply 35May 27, 2019 4:28 AM

I don’t watch this show, but Emilia Clark seems ghetto AF in real life.

by Anonymousreply 36May 27, 2019 4:37 AM

[quote]The table read was a little bit interesting because you got some insight into the actors’ real personalities

You mean, their work personalities.

by Anonymousreply 37May 27, 2019 4:46 AM

No wonder they only wanted six episodes, they were over it. Miserable conditions they had to work in.

by Anonymousreply 38May 27, 2019 4:46 AM

[quote]Shows like The Sopranos and The Wire have already been forgotten by the mainstream,

Yes, that's why they're making a prequel film of The Sopranos and The Wire is still quoted as a benchmarch of social commentary on TV.

by Anonymousreply 39May 27, 2019 4:52 AM

[quote]Sean Bean or someone else from the pilot hedged around it but said his assumption was because she just had a child or had small children and didn't want to be away from them.

That was Jennifer Ehle, the first Catelyn.

by Anonymousreply 40May 27, 2019 1:53 PM

I’d love to get my hands on the original unaired pilot just to be able to compare it to the first episode.

by Anonymousreply 41May 27, 2019 2:39 PM

Did I imagine that on the doc last night, Jon plunged the knife into Dany’s heart, and then the narrator read “END Game of Thrones” and everyone cheered? Did the actors not get the annoying epilogue in their scripts?

by Anonymousreply 42May 27, 2019 2:45 PM

I’m quite enjoying the documentary.

by Anonymousreply 43May 27, 2019 2:48 PM

The documentary was boring. Too much footage of the extras, too much of the makeup and hair people. The only interesting part was the Slavic actor who plays the Night King. It would have been more interesting if they would have interviewed the main actors and I would have liked to have seen more about how they do the dragons.

by Anonymousreply 44May 27, 2019 2:59 PM

No Love for Lord Theon in this thread?

by Anonymousreply 45May 27, 2019 3:07 PM

and beheaded Ser Rodrik

by Anonymousreply 46May 27, 2019 3:09 PM

[quote]Does anyone know why Tamzin Merchant asked to be released from the show after the pilot?

She got fired. As did Ehle. They and some others were deemed part of the myriad of issues that plagued the craptastic original pilot. For years, neither said a word in interviews about the show -there was probably an NDA. Ehle talked first and gave a lameass excuse about the work schedule keeping her away from her kids, but at the time she said that she was on a network show that had 22 episodes per season or something like that, so clearly that excuse was bullshit. I think they were both allowed to give explanations to the media that made it seem that it was their own choice to leave, to save face. But they were fired.

by Anonymousreply 47May 27, 2019 3:33 PM

R47, not "fired" but more like "let go" because IMO the producers/directors/writers wanted something different. IMO when you say an actor was "fired" it is usually because of some falling out or some bad thing they did. I don't think that was the case with Tamzin or Jennifer. I do know Jennifer Ehle is a highly respected actress.

by Anonymousreply 48May 27, 2019 3:42 PM

If they lost their jobs because what they were delivering wasn't getting it done, as is apparently the case, they were fired. You can sugarcoat it as being let go but that's what it is. In an interview with Vanity Fair about the original pilot, Benioff basically said that Ehle's performance was 'a problem'. I was around when Merchant's casting was announced, and it definitely received a mixed reception from the fandom; a lot of people didn't think she'd be able to pull off the Mother of Dragons, and apparently the producers agreed after the reception the original pilot got. Both actresses have done good work elsewhere, but they didn't ask to be released from their contracts as has been apparently put out there, and it's also a touchy subject for both, it seems. There's no sense that it was a warm and fuzzy parting. I don't think fired is an inaccurate term to use, but you do you.

by Anonymousreply 49May 27, 2019 4:09 PM

Sometimes “it wasn’t a good fit” is not a euphemism for “couldn’t do it.” Sometimes people don’t fit despite a lot of different attributes.

by Anonymousreply 50May 27, 2019 4:12 PM

Bringing this over from the full cast gossip thread:

[quote]I stumbled onto some fan site the other day and read about the original unaired pilot that D&D did. Change a few names and dates, and it's a carbon copy of what people are saying about this season so its not like HBO didn't know what these guys produced if left to their own devices.

I’m still curious about their contract. Was it really so ironclad that HBO had zero oversight on the story? They put in more scenes with Bronn just because he tested well, so I find it hard to believe they didn’t have some say over things.

by Anonymousreply 51May 27, 2019 5:36 PM

[quote]If they lost their jobs because what they were delivering wasn't getting it done, as is apparently the case, they were fired. You can sugarcoat it as being let go but that's what it is.

Saying they "went a different direction" with the character is the best way to say it. They had the credits to get the role, they were fine all through the casting process but when it got down to brass tacks they wanted something different and the actor couldn't give them what they wanted. It takes the blame off of the actor because they clearly should have noticed this before they shot the pilot. When the actor is to blame that's when you get "fired" or "let go." They had an academy award winning writer/director for the original pilot so it's hard to believe he couldn't figure out how to get a great performance out of the women unless they just weren't what was wanted in the end or they weren't capable of doing what was needed.

I do believe Jennifer Ehle when she said she quit and it was a mutual decision. The producers didn't like her performance in the pilot. She didn't like being signed on a series with a 7 year contract (from the start) and then finding out the pilot for it is absolute shit that had to be reshot. So the decision was mutual. With someone like her you just tell her to do things differently and because she's such a great actress she can.

Tamzin Merchant on the other hand got the most negative feedback and they apparently didn't know what to tell her to do differently and/or didn't think she was capable of it.

Even Kit didn't like his performance from the pilot. The writers themselves admitted that they even forgot to make it clear that Jamie and Cersei are siblings. Yes, they made it through that entire process and didn't stress it so people could understand it. The whole thing sounded like a mess

by Anonymousreply 52May 27, 2019 8:40 PM

I'm so tired of the "D&D were so tired".

HIRE MORE PEOPLE, ASSHOLES. Yes, it's an insane job. That's completely understandable, but for fuck's sake, hire more people, give Cogman (the show's best writer) more to do.

by Anonymousreply 53May 27, 2019 9:43 PM

[quote] It was funny to watch Sophie/Sansa laugh at him for being so emotional.

Yeah, I don't it that funny actually, laughing at someone's obvious distress.

[quote] How dumb are Kit and Emilia not to have had some idea of what was coming?

They were probably, like a lot of us in the audience, thinking "they're not really going to go there, are they?" through the entire read-through, and then stunned when it actually happened. I think they read the entire 6 seasons in one day and that's a lot to process in one sitting. Kit was probably still reeling from the three lines of dialogue he was going to have to repeat through the entire season.

[quote]Kit played himself because he should have read the script beforehand but no, he wanted to read it at the read-through and let everyone see him cry.

Wtf? Or maybe he wanted to experience it as a fan listening to his castmates read their parts? Good lord, some of you are just vicious cunts. He wasn't obligated to read it beforehand and there was nothing wrong with having such a purely emotional response to it. Kit and Emilia are very close friends so I could buy that he was disturbed by it.

[quote]Did I imagine that on the doc last night, Jon plunged the knife into Dany’s heart, and then the narrator read “END Game of Thrones” and everyone cheered? Did the actors not get the annoying epilogue in their scripts?

Pretty sure there was an edit there and it just jumped to the end. You can see Kit with his glasses in one shot then off in the next when they're clapping and he's clearly been crying.

I really enjoyed the doc. I LOVED that extra, Andy, and his clear love of the show and his dedication to his part and just being so totally in love with Kit, lol. There was a great punch line when Kit is talking about how fans in Spain always yell, "Keeet!", so the cast had taken to calling him Keith, and sure enough, two seconds later he rolls down his window to the screaming fans outside the hotel and they're all yelling, "Keeeet!". Also, we discovered that he likes to stroll out of the shower with the curtains wide open.

by Anonymousreply 54May 27, 2019 10:26 PM

[quote] I think they read the entire 6 seasons in one day and that's a lot to process in one sitting.

There was more than one table read as Lena is wearing two completely different outfits and hairstyles.

by Anonymousreply 55May 27, 2019 11:07 PM

6 episodes that was meant to say, and you're right, R55 it was likely 2 days. (also, didn't *find* it funny, I should proofread next time). Even still, it was pretty compressed to receive all that information. These were characters we loved and people had a lot of meltdowns over they way their arcs ended. How could the actors who've been playing them for the last decade not be similarly affected?

by Anonymousreply 56May 28, 2019 12:04 AM

[quote] They were probably, like a lot of us in the audience, thinking "they're not really going to go there, are they?" through the entire read-through, and then stunned

Emilia was reacting off of Kit. She read the script beforehand and already processed her emotions by the read through. They were on the same flight to Belfast and he told her he had not read the script and wanted to read it once there.

by Anonymousreply 57May 28, 2019 1:11 AM

Yeah, I was aware, but the poster I was answering specifically called them out both. I'm sure Emilia had a similar reaction when she read it by herself. She had to call her mother straight after to "call her off a ledge".

I was watching the doc again tonight. I am a big fan of Vlad the Night King now. What a fascinating guy.

by Anonymousreply 58May 28, 2019 3:36 AM

Night King forever.

"isaachwright

Here’s a still taken from the alternate episode 3 ending in which the Night King becomes Bran’s carer and they both live happily ever after."

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 59May 28, 2019 5:29 AM

Watching it now. Definitely seen Nutter's bear assistant on grindr

by Anonymousreply 60May 28, 2019 7:13 AM

I’m sure I read some where that if you direct a pilot episode that goes to series, you’re entitled to a fee for the rest of the series run. So the guy who directed the pilot didn’t direct any further episodes but would still receive a cheque every month for 9 years. Lucky gig.

by Anonymousreply 61May 28, 2019 7:54 AM

I read somewhere that Rory McCann is rather eccentric, and lives all by himself on a boat? He was really struggling before he got cast as The Hound, and he seems to have bonded with Ian Glenn and Liam Cunningham, and the Tormund guy.

by Anonymousreply 62May 28, 2019 8:39 AM

Yes, he's an admitted hermit but he claims to be getting better about being social now....

by Anonymousreply 63May 28, 2019 1:05 PM

[quote]So the guy who directed the pilot didn’t direct any further episodes but would still receive a cheque every month for 9 years

Tom McCarthy, the director of Spotlight, shot the original unreleased pilot. Tim Van Patten shot the aired pilot and the second ep.

by Anonymousreply 64May 28, 2019 2:18 PM

If any proof was needed that HBO considered Kit and Emilia their main focus, it was this documentary. There were 5 principal actors on this show and only 2 of them were shown filming their last scenes and their send off. They really didn’t give a fuck about Peter, Lena or Nikolaj, did they? Nikolaj retweeted something about that yesterday, but quickly undid the retweet. He’s PISSED! I hope he throws a full-on luvvie hissy fit eventually, because there’s tea to be had there.

I think that doc was irrefutable proof that D&D were propped up by people far more talented than themselves. Almost definitely as producers. Absolutely as writers. It amazes me how little experience they had when HBO handed over the reins.

by Anonymousreply 65May 28, 2019 5:20 PM

They didn't even bother to acknowledge Ramin Dawadi, the fucking composer on their "Last Call" special.

by Anonymousreply 66May 28, 2019 5:20 PM

I think D&D ingratiated themselves with GRRM, aThey certainly promoted GRRM's involvement the first 5 years.

D&D are pretty powerful players in H'wood, so I doubt if too many actors will come right out and diss them. I'm pissed about NCW in general, because they reflexively go with Dinklage for awards season, and Coster Waldau has been turning in g reat performances since they cut off his hand.

by Anonymousreply 67May 28, 2019 5:23 PM

[quote]Nikolaj retweeted something about that yesterday, but quickly undid the retweet. He’s PISSED! I hope he throws a full-on luvvie hissy fit eventually, because there’s tea to be had there.

That deleted retweet was fake. It’s easy to do, just change your own username (not your @handle) to the name you want to look like is retweeting you and voila.

But yes it’s clear Nikolaj isn’t happy and hasn’t been for a while, but he knows enough to just shut up and move on.

The doc seemed like Emmy bait for Kit and Emilia along with damage control on HBO’s part— look at the little people who work so hard! Look at food truck lady and snow dude! Hate on 8, and you’re hating on all their hard work!

by Anonymousreply 68May 28, 2019 7:23 PM

I think everyone knows here the blame lies.

by Anonymousreply 69May 28, 2019 7:32 PM

Was Jerome at the read through? How far away from Lena was he?

by Anonymousreply 70May 28, 2019 8:29 PM

I saw a pic of him at the read through. He was at the end of the table.

by Anonymousreply 71May 28, 2019 9:06 PM

Has this been posted yet?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 72May 28, 2019 9:33 PM

r71 Do we think Lena cringed every time he opened his mouth?

by Anonymousreply 73May 28, 2019 9:34 PM

"Cersei stands in the window. She raises the wine to her lips. Repeat"

by Anonymousreply 74May 28, 2019 9:46 PM

It was a blind item in the gossip thread r72, but now it looks to be confirmed.

by Anonymousreply 75May 28, 2019 10:37 PM

I can't believe the director's name is NUTTER! LOLOLOLOLOL

by Anonymousreply 76May 28, 2019 10:42 PM

{r68} its cute that you think this 2 hour doc can be thrown together in a week. LOL!!!! This took months.

by Anonymousreply 77May 28, 2019 10:54 PM

The doc was a miss-fire. Yes, I liked the commentary from the average Joes behind the scene, but it missed the reflective nature of the moment or any narration. It was legit someone given a pass to follow people around with a camera. No perspective on the international popularity of the show or actor's ability to get into character.

It didn't have a flow or real emotional payoff. Every scene that could mean something was cut short, with the exception of that super extra guys awkward pat on the back from his fellow cast member. They could have built a story of growth from start to finish on the creation of thrones, include more from the very first and last table read. D&D couldn't even be bothered to participate in his documentary about their own show. HBO didn't demand their inclusion.

Maybe they could have interview some previous actors that had been killed off. You wouldn't have know that this was the worlds most popular TV show based on the way HBO and D&D handle the departure. The most basic docu team from the History channel or PBS could have made this into something worth of the topic. The producers didn't know what they were doing, but the PR team knew to use the minor table read scene to get viewers to keep their HBO subscription for another week.

by Anonymousreply 78May 28, 2019 11:15 PM

The doc was sort of boring. They got barely any time with the directors or the show runners and almost nothing with the actors as well.

by Anonymousreply 79May 28, 2019 11:20 PM

Hope Kit recovers quickly.

by Anonymousreply 80May 28, 2019 11:20 PM

r80 when Keet :) started crying, I thought it was just a reaction to the blow. He's a known uses and drunk, so he was probably high throughout the table read. Given his small stature he will put on weight quickly and look like a reject Jonas Brother in a couple of years. I hop ehe keeps things in line. His wife is lovely, so I wish them both the best.

by Anonymousreply 81May 29, 2019 12:18 AM

I thought they could have interviewed more cast members. i don't really have to hear or see the make up person's kid. who cares?

That extra was fucking embarrassing...he was sucking up so much to kit, trying to gift him a crew jacket, big fucking deal.

by Anonymousreply 82May 29, 2019 12:24 AM

were those extras paid min wage? all that waiting around in the fucking cold. all for a lousy jacket.

by Anonymousreply 83May 29, 2019 12:25 AM

r83 I would do it, just say you were in the show. If you took a vacation day then it's not a big deal. Think of it like a hobby, but you'll have a nice short story for the rest of your life.

by Anonymousreply 84May 29, 2019 12:31 AM

I'd work for min wage to be on GOT. Be a piece of TV history.

by Anonymousreply 85May 29, 2019 12:31 AM

Kit is in rehab now. Jeez.

by Anonymousreply 86May 29, 2019 12:34 AM

can't believe Lena went and got a fug tat on her arm...

by Anonymousreply 87May 29, 2019 12:50 AM

[quote]I thought they could have interviewed more cast members. i don't really have to hear or see the make up person's kid. who cares?

I have a hunch most of the cast weren’t interested in being part of the documentary, outside of Kit and Emilia. They were all rather done and over it.

by Anonymousreply 88May 29, 2019 12:51 AM

Lena supposed to be a bit of a head case, isn’t she? She was dressed like a kooky elementary school art teacher at the reads.

by Anonymousreply 89May 29, 2019 12:52 AM

R88, are you kidding? Actors love to be on camera! Esp those who need exposure...like the guy who played Night King. It was nice to see he was very nice to fans.

by Anonymousreply 90May 29, 2019 12:53 AM

I was happy to get a glimpse of Jaqen H'ghar

by Anonymousreply 91May 29, 2019 12:54 AM

r91 The actor was in the documentary as well?

by Anonymousreply 92May 29, 2019 12:56 AM

R92, he was in it for a nano second. He was in Spain to be decoy, as was Kit. Then we see Kit in a car going back to hotel with hundreds of screaming fans waiting...

So funny to see the security guard with the binoculars to see what they were filming LOL!

by Anonymousreply 93May 29, 2019 1:02 AM

Tell us more please r91. Besides KH, he is my favorite.

by Anonymousreply 94May 29, 2019 1:02 AM

[quote]I think D&D ingratiated themselves with GRRM, aThey certainly promoted GRRM's involvement the first 5 years.

Yeah. D&D got involved in this when GRRM's agent was calling around Hollywood, shopping the books for adaptation. They had never read them before. (I point that out because too many fanboy idiots like to claim that D&D were themselves fanboys of the books who had a dream of adapting them. Not true. From the beginning, the books were a business prospect for them, not some labor of love). They were the ones who successfully sucked up to GRRM and told him what he wanted to hear. It helped that Benioff at least was a successful screenwriter, and I'm sure HBO was pushing him at GRRM - during that time period HBO was totally hot to sign up anyone with film cred over TV cred.

[quote]I'm pissed about NCW in general, because they reflexively go with Dinklage for awards season

I've been pissed for Alfie Allen for years now on the same basis. He has done at least a couple of seasons' worth of award-worthy work and never got a fair shot at a nom because of HBO's Dinklage obsession.

by Anonymousreply 95May 29, 2019 1:02 AM

If anyone deserved an award it was Charles Dance.

by Anonymousreply 96May 29, 2019 1:06 AM

Kristofer Hivju (Tormund Giantsbane) is so sexy.

by Anonymousreply 97May 29, 2019 1:09 AM

I like Alfie too, I was impressed with his torture scene...and Charles Dance has such a great voice, I've seen him in many other films.

Poor Kit

by Anonymousreply 98May 29, 2019 1:31 AM

[quote]can't believe Lena went and got a fug tat on her arm...

She has at least 13 tats.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 99May 29, 2019 1:58 AM

Lena's baby daddy dumped her last year.

by Anonymousreply 100May 29, 2019 6:22 AM

R100, the second husband? details?

by Anonymousreply 101May 29, 2019 6:26 AM

"If anyone deserved an award it was Charles Dance. "

Hear, hear!! I love Dinklage, but Dance blew him off the screen. He blew everyone off the screen! Except maybe Diana Rigg. Oh, how I loved seeing the two of them together...

Anyway, I love seeing the "table reads" with a cast so large they wouldn't fit around a mere table, it looks like they're using a hotel banquet room instead. It's also odd to see the older footage with the child actors sitting right next to the adults, with no parents in tow, and behaving like tiny little professionals.

by Anonymousreply 102May 29, 2019 6:45 AM

R100, Lena married the babydaddy (Dan Cadan) last year. They are still married.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 103May 29, 2019 9:00 AM

I wonder if they do tracking polls or market tests, focus groups, etc.during the run of the show each season, to determine who to kill off. Because it seems to me that there'd be 3 reasons to kill someone: the story/plot requires it; the people in charge, D&D don't like certain cast members; or they're not getting high ratings with fans of the show.

People complained that too many characters were left alive after the battle for Winterfell, and I believe it was fan service. They couldn't kill off too many major characters so early in the season. They had more than 4 hours of show left. It had to be gradual, but also, since Tyrion and a few others were favorites it was hands off. But I don't see how the hell Bran was so popular, unless the fans were simply hoping he would do something important as we were all (mis)led to believe.

They gave Bran all these special powers as the 3ER and he barely used them. Go back to when he first meets up with Jojen and Meera and Jojen tells him about his powers as they're walking along. There were so many loose ends with several of the characters that D&D ought to be friend for what they did. The absurdity of Bran as King was the biggest blunder in TV history. They look SO bad right now. Not because this is where it ended, but because they gave no justification for it.

IMO the sequence at Winterfell made sense. Jon was trying to get to Bran. He gets pinned down by the zombie dragon. Arya does it. But when Arya does it, it makes sense. I watched it at a party and everyone cheered. Yes! But Bran being King and Jon heading North was total bull shit. It was like the Showrunners felt like they had to do something unexpected so they just threw shit on the walls to see what stuck. The unexpected plot twist was Jon killing his lover. When the Dragon refused to burn Jon, that was it. Jon could have claimed the Throne. Who's gonna fuck with Drogon?

by Anonymousreply 104May 29, 2019 11:44 AM

I think Lena was covered in tattoos before she was cast as Cersei. A body double was used for her “shame, shame, shame!” and other naked scenes because obvioisly her tattoos wouldn’t make sense on the show. Her head was CGId onto the body, and it’s pretty impressive that that didn’t look ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 105May 29, 2019 11:47 AM

[quote]I think Lena was covered in tattoos before she was cast as Cersei.

Long before. She had them by the time she was on The Sarah Conner Chronicles because she dwas featured in Inked magazine

I think the body double was used because she didn't want to do a nude shot and also IIRC she was pregnant that season.

[quote]t's also odd to see the older footage with the child actors sitting right next to the adults, with no parents in tow, and behaving like tiny little professionals.

Maisie and Sophie's mothers were in one shot. They were sitting against the wall.

by Anonymousreply 106May 29, 2019 12:51 PM

[quote]I wonder if they do tracking polls or market tests, focus groups, etc.during the run of the show each season, to determine who to kill off. Because it seems to me that there'd be 3 reasons to kill someone: the story/plot requires it; the people in charge, D&D don't like certain cast members; or they're not getting high ratings with fans of the show.

They do use metrics like Q ratings. Martin spoke about this being the reason why Bronn was given such a prominent role— because of his high audience score. There was also a hacked HBO email that mentioned notes from the r&d team. In particular that the stakes were lower due to the lack of main character deaths in i think season 7.

So yes, they employ all the regular audience feedback tools as any other show.

by Anonymousreply 107May 29, 2019 12:56 PM

[quote]I think the body double was used because she didn't want to do a nude shot and also IIRC she was pregnant that season.

Definitely this. They have special makeup to cover tattoos in no time these days.

by Anonymousreply 108May 29, 2019 12:59 PM

r107 I think that's why Melisandre's screen time diminished so drastically. Especially after the burning of Shireen, the audience despised her.... despite being considerably more forgiving over male characters like Jaime, Theon and Tormund (who have committed atrocities on innocents themselves). It's a shame really because Carice van Houten was part of the starring cast, yet guest stars got far more screen time than her.

by Anonymousreply 109May 29, 2019 12:59 PM

She was great too. I wish they had showed more red witches in general. We only saw one other than Melisandre once if I recall and she had a very brief appearance.

by Anonymousreply 110May 29, 2019 1:53 PM

Carice Van Houten had a baby back in 2016. I think that had something to do with the reduction of her screen time.

by Anonymousreply 111May 29, 2019 2:50 PM

Game of Thrones' udders must ache from all of this milking.

by Anonymousreply 112May 29, 2019 2:52 PM

R111 is correct, R109. She had a baby and literally filmed her S7 appearance in a weekend.

by Anonymousreply 113May 29, 2019 5:46 PM

So did Yara Greyjoy. Baby.

by Anonymousreply 114May 29, 2019 6:09 PM

Is that why Yara didn't kill Euron? I thought for sure she would.

by Anonymousreply 115May 29, 2019 8:26 PM

R115 No, the showrunners wanted to have a fight scene between Pilou and Nikolaj so they could call it ‘Danebowl’. That’s the reason. I’m not even joking. It was like having two coked out frat boys in charge of a multi million dollar budget.

by Anonymousreply 116May 29, 2019 8:32 PM

It made NO sense whatsoever. It was a waste of time and boring. Yara (or Theon if he had survived) should have killed Euron.

By the way, Euron was a total clown in the final season. I found him slightly scary in season 7 when he attacked the ship carrying Ellaria, Yara/Theon and the Sand Snakes. In Season 8, he was just content to be Cersei's little bitch.

by Anonymousreply 117May 29, 2019 10:31 PM

Ouch.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 118May 29, 2019 11:10 PM

Total bullshit that Kit Harrington didn’t read the script. The PR people told him to say that and then “be affected by the news” in front of the cameras.

by Anonymousreply 119May 29, 2019 11:13 PM

r118 They're so fucking underhanded.

by Anonymousreply 120May 29, 2019 11:14 PM

R118, in that pic, he looks like a dracula.

by Anonymousreply 121May 29, 2019 11:15 PM

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 122May 29, 2019 11:23 PM

[quote] Total bullshit that Kit Harrington didn’t read the script. The PR people told him to say that and then “be affected by the news” in front of the cameras.

Emilia is the one who said he hadn't read the script. They were on the same flight returning to set and she wanted to talk about what happens and he told her he didn't want to know until the read-through.

by Anonymousreply 123May 29, 2019 11:42 PM

R122 that picture looks intrusive. He looks very fragile. I wish they'd let him be. That part of Connecticut is really lovely.

by Anonymousreply 124May 30, 2019 12:53 AM

I would like to rehab Kit. A lot.

by Anonymousreply 125May 30, 2019 12:58 AM

R122 and R124, don't worry, the photo is a film still from The Death And Life of John F. Donovan and was taken about 4 years ago. He's meant to look fragile in that scene, but you're probably close anyway, as he was apparently doing loads of coke while filming in Montreal.

by Anonymousreply 126May 30, 2019 1:20 AM

THanks R126. He sure do look pitiful.

by Anonymousreply 127May 30, 2019 3:52 AM

So D&D have dumped their management, eh?

It's not their manager's fault that S8 sucked!

No, really, this isn't a case of bad publicity or scandal or bad advice from managers or anything else that can be controlled by the usual Hollywood methods. The vast majority of the fans just hated their work, that's all.

by Anonymousreply 128May 30, 2019 5:57 AM

R3 if Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader can withstand it, I think Dany will survive. It was an unexpected twist and even if unwanted, one can appreciate the surprise factor. It is true Vader went the opposite way, but the idea is the surprise factor; evil >>>> good and good>>>>evil. Besides, madness ran in her family; her eldest brother and Jon were the only ones to escape it.

by Anonymousreply 129May 30, 2019 6:14 AM

Such a hot daddy:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 130May 30, 2019 6:23 AM

Kit Harington, the “Game of Thrones” star who Page Six exclusively revealed secretly checked into luxury rehab for stress and alcohol use ahead of the show’s finale, is staying at Connecticut mental health retreat Prive Swiss, said a source.

The facility, where a 30-day stay costs up to $120,000, offers a private chef, a fitness studio, massages and “is offered to only three clients at a time and includes all one-to-one services with ultra-private luxury accommodations.”

The spot, which author Augusten Burroughs has called the “Rolls-Royce of psychiatric treatment centers,” is popular with celebrities and Fortune 500 types.

Selena Gomez was spotted at the center last year and we’re told she completed similar treatment to Harington, who we hear is undergoing “DBT therapy,” nutrition coaching and mindful meditation.

According to a Prive Swiss site: “The goal of DBT is to transform negative thinking patterns and destructive behaviors into positive outcomes,” with key areas of focus including mindfulness, emotional regulation and interpersonal effectiveness.

Clients also learn distress tolerance, or “how to cope with situations that cause stress and anxiety by reframing their thoughts, implementing self-soothing techniques, and understanding the present moment,” the site says.

Patients like Harington work alongside therapists to set “goals for themselves, incorporate activities they enjoy, and mindfully understand their process of struggle.”

A friend of the star’s told Page Six, “The end of ‘GoT’ really hit Kit hard …He realized ‘this is it — this is the end,’ it was something they had all worked so hard on for so many years. He had a moment of, what next. He’s in the clinic predominantly for stress and exhaustion and also alcohol.”

Harington has been open about his struggle as the show turned him into a huge international star and admitted he sought therapy after a twist in the script hit him especially hard.

He told Variety, “My darkest period was when the show seemed to become so much about Jon when he died and came back. When you become the cliffhanger of a TV show, and a TV show probably at the height of its power, the focus on you is f—–g terrifying. That was a time when I started therapy and started talking to people. I had felt very unsafe, and I wasn’t talking to anyone.”

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 131May 30, 2019 7:25 AM

"Harington has been open about his struggle as the show turned him into a huge international star and admitted he sought therapy after a twist in the script hit him especially hard. "

I REALLY wonder if that's true. Because almost nothing printed is true, in the field of entertainment "journalism".

But I think it could be. The Season 8 suckitude had to be pretty damn rough on the actors, after all the work they'd put in over all those years.

by Anonymousreply 132May 30, 2019 7:44 AM

He said he had struggled with Jon being killed in the past and went to therapy, but this is rehab for alcohol abuse. When you're seen stumbling out of bars stinking drunk and when your Russian hook up sells photos of you passed out nude it's time to reassess your drinking habits.

by Anonymousreply 133May 30, 2019 7:59 AM

R128, D&D are dumping their manager because they're in the midst of putting together a new overall deal, and they don't want him included as he was for their GOT deal. He had a producer credit on the show just for being the one who initially hooked them up with the books/GRRM, and was getting a cut all this time.

[quote]Besides, madness ran in her family; her eldest brother and Jon were the only ones to escape it.

Dany's mother Rhaella was also not mad. No one thinks of her. Aemon wasn't crazy. Mental issues ran in the family but there were far more sane Targs than crazy ones. The show really pushed the whole 'coin flip/most Targs are crazy thing' hard, and lazily, to make Targs = bad and Starks = good, and as a substitute for competently writing Dany's progression towards the dark side.

by Anonymousreply 134May 30, 2019 8:22 AM

Tyrion and Arya were my favorites, glad they survived. Jorah who was Dany's right hand man, his soothing type voice got on my damn nerves.

by Anonymousreply 135May 30, 2019 9:29 AM

It doesn't read like D&D are dumping their guy, but that the relationship is changing. They will be collaborating on future projects. I think it was more that they are maintaining a different relationship with him, but that they are walking away from the agency who managed them. At a certain point, if you're in that line of work, film, TV, Authors, you may not need management, but if you have a good relationship with an individual, you will try to maintain it.

by Anonymousreply 136May 30, 2019 11:51 AM

[quote]That part of Connecticut is really lovely.

Where is it? I’ve never heard of his rehab, I figured he’d be at Silver Hill. Apparently I’m way behind on what’s hot in rehab land.

by Anonymousreply 137May 30, 2019 1:54 PM

I really enjoyed the side-eye Sophie Turner gave Kit when he started crying.

by Anonymousreply 138May 30, 2019 1:56 PM

Westbrook, CT check it out. Ocean.

by Anonymousreply 139May 30, 2019 2:41 PM

good luck kit

by Anonymousreply 140May 31, 2019 2:06 AM

I want to be supportive. I hate the way the Mail is hounding him. Let him be. I've seen him on talk shows the last two or three years and he is very likeable. Nice guy.

by Anonymousreply 141May 31, 2019 2:19 AM

R137 me too. Silver Hill was the fancy rehab place I heard about growing up in CT. Guess this new place is better- and for $120,000 a month it better be! Damn that's a lot of money.

Obviously not for Kit, but for us peasants.

by Anonymousreply 142May 31, 2019 3:48 AM

I can't believe that's his wife

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 143May 31, 2019 5:09 AM

Luckiest woman alive.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 144May 31, 2019 5:15 AM

Haven't they been together for over 20 years? I bet she was gorgeous as a twenty something. I can see why he'd go for her.

But yes, he looks fantastic these days and she looks her age. Oh well.

by Anonymousreply 145May 31, 2019 9:11 AM

He looks his age, R145, more so than his wife. Yes, he's a handsome mature man, but don't be silly, his looks his 48 years. Unlike his wife, he's got graying hair and wrinkles where nature intended them to be.

His attractiveness comes from his wit, personality, talent, hot bod, sex appeal, and charisma, not from looking young.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 146May 31, 2019 9:59 AM

Nikolaj has a very happy life and is not one of those men with sex on the brain, despite his looks. He doesn't have affairs. He's raised daughters.

by Anonymousreply 147May 31, 2019 12:22 PM

I thought I read somewhere his wife was some kind of beauty Contest winner? Anyway she's touted as a great beauty back in the day, and she is a native of Greenland, and she's also done some acting. I think he said in an interview that his wife refuses to watch Game of Thrones, and his daughters don't either. He has been a dutiful dad from all reports, even taking the kids to school and picking them up. They're teenagers now. I'm surprised to learn he's only 48. He looks like he is in his 50's. Spends a lot of time outdoors, and he doesn't moisturize. I wonder if he's a smoker? A lot of European actors are.

by Anonymousreply 148May 31, 2019 1:43 PM

If Nicolaj Coster Waldau was my father I'd have serious Daddy issues.

by Anonymousreply 149May 31, 2019 1:44 PM

You are all such bitches. Nikolaj's wife looks fine. She looks good and normal for someone her age. At least, she's not a 48 year old trying to look 18.

by Anonymousreply 150May 31, 2019 4:39 PM

R148 If he doesn’t moisturise then it makes L’Oreal taking him on all the more confusing. I mean he’s a hot piece of Danish ass, but he has aged a lot since he started GoT.

R150 She does look fine, but that woman is well acquainted with her local plastic surgeon. We may be bitches, but we aren’t blind.

I’ve noticed NCW’s tone has changed about his marriage recently in interviews. He admitted that they spend a lot of time apart and that it’s caused tension, and then basically said that he has no plans to stop travelling for work because he enjoys it so much. If you don’t want to spend time with your partner then the relationship is dead in the water. Put it out of its misery and move the fuck on. Fairly sure this blind was about him a few years back.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 151May 31, 2019 5:20 PM

There was another blind about this about a year later pointing at Nikolaj. Someone on the GOT dirt thread said it was about him and Gwen. On this older Insider Gossip thread a poster claimed their friend (who was a crew member) said the same.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 152May 31, 2019 6:21 PM

Ah, yeah, I remember that guy. Wish he came back with more scoop from his crew friend. Bet there were plenty of tales to tell on that final season. People were exhausted. I'm sure they got sloppy.

by Anonymousreply 153May 31, 2019 7:01 PM

Isn't Gwen in a relationship with a fashion designer? Unless she's bearding for him...

by Anonymousreply 154May 31, 2019 8:39 PM

I don't like Gwen, have you seen the way she talks? It's like she's making an announcement...like she's acting on b'way. very loud.

by Anonymousreply 155May 31, 2019 10:21 PM

Aidan Gillen, Ian Glenn are both married. Nic would be the logical choice because he is so hot, but it could be someone else. OTOH, over ten years from the start of the shoot, with all the traveling, and with long location shoots, plus he goes on these United Nations goodwill tours, and sends time fighting Climate change, etc. so yeah, and he said he and his wife love to spend their summers in Greenland visiting her family, etc. So I guess it would not be surprising to learn he may have had a fling. But I don't think he's going to get a divorce for a fling.

by Anonymousreply 156May 31, 2019 11:56 PM

Peter Dinklage is also married....just sayin'

by Anonymousreply 157May 31, 2019 11:56 PM

Is Charles Dance MArried?

by Anonymousreply 158May 31, 2019 11:56 PM

Charles Dance is a man whore.

by Anonymousreply 159June 1, 2019 12:05 AM

That blind is from 2016. Also Aidan Gillen is divorced. He and his wife split up a few years ago and his current partner is some singer. He took her to the season 8 premiere.

by Anonymousreply 160June 1, 2019 1:52 AM

Honestly if Nicolaj Coster Waldau were having an affair I don't think he'd be so obvious as to be doing Gwendoline. OTOH, hiding in plain sight would work. I just don't see her doing it with a married man with kids.

by Anonymousreply 161June 1, 2019 2:37 AM

[R160] Did Aiden Gillen meet his partner on "Game of Thrones?" The wording of the blind item makes it clear they were both co-stars on the show.

by Anonymousreply 162June 1, 2019 3:25 AM

Not r3 I think the fact that Emilia suffered two cerebral aneurysms and had brain surgery twice in the first two seasons of the show is what contributed to her emotions about her character. At a time where she was really weak and could have died she was playing a character like Daenerys. I'm not surprised she was so emotional about everything. Read about her medical emergencies, it's really intense.

by Anonymousreply 163June 1, 2019 3:31 AM

There we re a lot of man whores on Game of Thrones. Jerome Flynn, Richard Madden, Kit, Daniel Portman, (Podrick) probably Joe Dempsie, and yes, Charles Dance.

by Anonymousreply 164June 1, 2019 11:04 AM

[quote]Did Aiden Gillen meet his partner on "Game of Thrones?" The wording of the blind item makes it clear they were both co-stars on the show.

No. She has nothing to do with the show. She’s a musician and he knows a lot of people in the Dublin music scene. That’s how they met.

by Anonymousreply 165June 1, 2019 12:13 PM

Sophie's newest X-Men movie is getting AWFUL reviews: https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-reviews/dark-phoenix-review-sophie-turner-xmen-843667/

by Anonymousreply 166June 5, 2019 4:15 PM

Domino with NCW and Carice van Houten has bombed with critics too. That dude can’t pick a decent script to save his life.

I’m starting to get the impression there’s going to be a GoT curse.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 167June 5, 2019 8:03 PM

Did anyone see his film "Shot Caller" that came out two years ago in which he played a stock broker turned convict/gangleader? What bizarre casting. And as much as I like NCW, I just don't buy him as an American.

I saw "Rocketman" last night. DL fave Richard Madden plays Elton John's lover/manager. He's very sexy but that character is a major asshole.

by Anonymousreply 168June 5, 2019 8:22 PM

I can't buy Sophie Turner as an American. Her attempt at an American accent is horrible in the Dark Phoenix trailers as she stumbles in and out of it.

by Anonymousreply 169June 6, 2019 12:47 AM

"Did anyone see his film "Shot Caller" that came out two years ago in which he played a stock broker turned convict/gangleader?"

Hey, I saw NCW in the hot-mess campfest "Gods of Egypt"! Yeah, if you want to cast someone who looks like an Egyptian God, Denmark is definitely the place to start.

by Anonymousreply 170June 6, 2019 8:12 AM

Speaking of the Gwendoline and Nikolaj spec, I just saw on YT there's now a compilation video of them doing press together that has nearly 3 million views?!! Wtf.

So I guess we're not the only ones to notice they have some . . . interesting chemistry.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 171June 10, 2019 2:02 PM

I wish NCW would get a new agent or manager or whoever chooses his scripts. Sheesh. It's clear IMO that he has it in him to be a superior actor. He has the talent. He had some remarkable scenes in GoT and IMO he elevated the story with his work. He needs to make better choices. I wish I could see him perform Macbeth on stage in L.A. later this year. He has been in too many garbage movies. Way too many. Personally, his strong suit is period dramas, or British mysteries or comedies. Yes. I know he's Danish. But he is so good with the accent he'd do fine as a Brit. Or a foreigner who travels to England and becomes a detective. Hell, he could be in one of those 6 part mini-series. WTF.

by Anonymousreply 172June 10, 2019 2:53 PM

NCW could be the next Harrison Ford if he plays his card right. He needs a great agent.

by Anonymousreply 173June 10, 2019 3:36 PM

Doesn't he owe his ex-manager $2 million? I swear I read that somewhere. If so, be prepared for a whole lot of very bad paycheck movies.

I think he needs Richard Madden's agent.

by Anonymousreply 174June 10, 2019 6:24 PM

Yeah, he owes his ex manager that much. That shit really doesn’t play well in Hollywood. You keep on paying the piper until after the project finishes. I wouldn’t be surprised if trying to wriggle out of it has cost him other projects. For a man nearing 50, he’s incredibly naive.

Nikolaj would do well working with Sky in the UK like other former GoT actors. Getting a solid mini-series under his belt would give him a good chance of getting an Emmy.

by Anonymousreply 175June 10, 2019 8:43 PM

Wow. HBO really lives in a world of denial and cognitive dissonance. GoT is returning to Comic-Con next month. Those folks from GoT who attend should brace themselves for the vocal backlash over how AWFUL the final season was: https://deadline.com/2019/06/game-of-thrones-comic-con-2019-return-final-appearance-westworld-1202630238/

by Anonymousreply 176June 10, 2019 9:08 PM

One word: Emmys.

Besides no one is blaming the actors for the shitty final season; if anything there’s been a big groundswell of support for them— look at that huge fan fundraiser for Emilia’s charity. Those appearing are TBD, and still under contract not to disparage anything show related so it’s not like tea will be spilled.

by Anonymousreply 177June 10, 2019 10:19 PM

Alfie Allen, Carice Van Houten, Pilou Asbek, Gwendoline Christie and Richard Dormer have been submitted on the Emmy ballot via their personal reps

by Anonymousreply 178June 10, 2019 10:21 PM

No one expects the two showrunners to appear at Comic-Con.

by Anonymousreply 179June 10, 2019 10:23 PM

I expect the lower end of the cast like Davos, Sam, Greyworm, Missndei, Bran.

by Anonymousreply 180June 11, 2019 1:31 AM

Yes, members of the cast whose characters weren't too badly mangled by the writers--the second-tier crowd. However, Alfie Allen's character had a good redemption arc and went out like a champ.

by Anonymousreply 181June 11, 2019 1:36 AM

You expect what?

I wish Liam Cunningham would work with Steve McQueen again.

Also, R177, the redditors (r/freefolk, specifically) have raised over 45K pounds for Kit's charity, Mencap. They started promoting it after Emilia thanked them on her instagram. It's a sweet gesture and they're both great causes.

by Anonymousreply 182June 11, 2019 1:38 AM

Benioff and Weiss know they fucked up, which is why they have not done ANY interviews about the finale. There's not even an "Inside the Episode" HBO feature, which they've done with every episode. They are such assholes and HBO submitted their episodes for Emmy consideration and not Bryan Cogman's "Knight of the Seven Kingdoms," which was the best episode of the season.

by Anonymousreply 183June 11, 2019 1:39 AM

The Euron actor submitted himself for Emmy consideration?

by Anonymousreply 184June 11, 2019 1:40 AM

In the final episode, I could deal with a lot of it, except for the almost insulting way they wrapped. Jon killing crazy Dany I got that. That's the way they wanted to go. But Grey Worm arresting Jon, and then he gets exiled to the North? What a shitshow.

After they showed that the dragon had a huge tantrum when Dany died, but did not harm Jon, that should have been it. Jon was king. Period. Grey Worm doesn't get to arrest him. Now Jon could have said he was only staying for a short time to help them get organized and set up a Council and vote for a new Leader, but Jon would always be Protector of the Realm.

Instead they wrote some rambling babbling bullshit for Tyrion to propose Bran, etc. So suddenly Bran is king, and the small council with Bronn? Bronn should have died in a pile of rubble. He had no reason to survive. What an ass. That was fucking insulting.

It's as if they were drunk or stoned and just decided to say fuck you to all the people who had invested eight years or more to the fucking series. It was such a pile of shit. So they will be very surprised that a lot of fans will just walk away. I've been so pissed off I can't even watch it anymore knowing how crap the ending was.

by Anonymousreply 185June 11, 2019 3:00 AM

[quote]I expect the lower end of the cast like Davos, Sam, Greyworm, Missndei, Bran.

Judging by how popular that youtube vid is, they’d be smart to get Nikolaj and Gwen and put them next to each other.

by Anonymousreply 186June 11, 2019 12:07 PM

[R185] I agree with you. The showrunners knew they were trashing the ending/final season and they didn't care anymore. HBO bears a great deal of responsibility here in that those two jackasses might have succeeded in ruining the GoT legacy and a possible thriving franchise (ala Star Wars, Star Trek, etc).

by Anonymousreply 187June 11, 2019 12:36 PM

R187, exactly. They fucked up big time. I know they keep trying to cast this as disgruntled fans who didn't like the ending, but it's way more than that. It's the sloppiness, the inconsistencies, the obvious rush to wrap that made no sense and made most of the storylines for principal characters irrelevant. I've talked to other people who loved the series, and they were really pissed off. more than a few have said they can't watch the series anymore now knowing how it turns out. All the things they thought were important, were simply discarded. The ending was bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 188June 11, 2019 12:53 PM

HBO is throwing a lot of shit on the walls seeing what sticks. So they're putting names and episodes out there for consideration for the Emmy nominations. No one has been nominated, these a re just a list of names. I hope NCW gets a nomination. He may not win, but he deserves the recognition. He shouldn't be blamed for D&D's piss poor writing.

by Anonymousreply 189June 11, 2019 3:05 PM

NCW should have gotten a win for S7, not Dinklage. Unfortunately, this year, he did nothing of note, really.

by Anonymousreply 190June 11, 2019 7:40 PM

Dinklage and Clarke are locks (nomination-wise) this year. Dinklage, of course, will win another Emmy; Clarke has a strong shot but it depends on who her competition will be.

As for Best Supporting, I'd love if Christie got in but I wouldn't be surprised if it's Williams and Headey even if the latter was practically a cameo this season.

by Anonymousreply 191June 11, 2019 7:55 PM

Not nominating Cogman and episode 2 is INSANE

by Anonymousreply 192June 11, 2019 9:01 PM

The funniest thing about the whole saga? Benioff and Weiss genuinely believed their ending would be up there with Mad Men and Breaking Bad. They are the definition of mediocre white men being promoted above their capabilities.

I think GRRM being slated to appear at comic con, and the showrunners giving it a miss, speaks volumes. Hope he’s finally going to give a release date for the next book, and maybe throw some shade D&D’s way.

The supporting actor/actress category is the only place that GoT stands a chance of of picking up the major awards. The technical side of things will be a lock, but contrary to what some journos are saying, I believe the show will be punished for such a weak final season.

by Anonymousreply 193June 11, 2019 10:24 PM

Supporting actress is a weak category this year. Seems pretty open with no clear front runner, which usually means surprise nominees and notable snubs.

by Anonymousreply 194June 11, 2019 10:34 PM

I hope the nominees reflect how disappointing the end was. I want to see the directors, especially Miguel Sapochnik get nominated, and all the actors. As many as possible, I don't care. Ditto for the workers, cinematography, special effects,etc. But nothing for Weiss and Benioff. Let them squirm.

by Anonymousreply 195June 11, 2019 10:36 PM

[quote]"Harington has been open about his struggle as the show turned him into a huge international star and admitted he sought therapy after a twist in the script hit him especially hard. "

I REALLY wonder if that's true. Because almost nothing printed is true, in the field of entertainment "journalism".

But I think it could be. The Season 8 suckitude had to be pretty damn rough on the actors, after all the work they'd put in over all those years.[/quote]

I don't think it's true in the manner its being implied here, that he went to therapy because S8 sucked.

[quote]He said he had struggled with Jon being killed in the past and went to therapy, but this is rehab for alcohol abuse. When you're seen stumbling out of bars stinking drunk and when your Russian hook up sells photos of you passed out nude it's time to reassess your drinking habits.

He said that he struggled with the amount of attention that was suddenly foisted on him after he was killed off in the show and people wouldn't leave him alone to ask if he was coming back. He also said he felt very unsafe at the time. And yes, while his drunken antics have garnered plenty of press, this clinic isn't just another rehab visit for alcoholics. It is supposed to be an excellent facility that focuses on CBT (not cock and ball torture). Have you ever watched some of his interviews when he talks about his phobias and superstitions? The dude is OCD as hell. His camp has said he was admitted for anxiety issues. Well that sounds like the truth. I had no idea how severe OCD can affect people and how it makes them high risk for drug and alcohol dependence but they often go hand in hand. He's probably being treated for both because alcohol and drugs are how he's been self medicating to mask his anxiety for years now.

I mentioned this elsewhere and people lost their fucking minds. I think he's a sweet guy who's been trying to cope with a disorder and fame during his 20s and did not come out of it unscathed. Hope he gets the treatment he needs to be healthy again.

Kit is supposedly slated for the SDCC as well, but I sure hope he cancels. No one needs to go through that so close to working on their mental health.

by Anonymousreply 196June 11, 2019 10:37 PM

damn, that quote block got fucked up. But I was trying to reply to two different posts.

by Anonymousreply 197June 11, 2019 10:42 PM

You know I was pretty accepting right up until the dragon flew off with Dany. But they it seemed like they just slopped the rest of it together. It was clumsy and awkward and it didn't even seem like it was the same story. It was definitely a much lower standard. Like maybe they sat down with a bunch of interns and said, "OK, have at it. What do you think happens after Drogon flies away with Dany?"

by Anonymousreply 198June 11, 2019 11:09 PM

The best way to end Cersei would have been for her to make it out of the Red Keep and find the boat before Jaime got to her, and he arrives just in time to see her running off with Euron. Then Jaime stands there and sees Dany incinerate them. So Jaime survives and he & Brienne patch things up. Bronn didn't deserve to live and the Hound to die.

by Anonymousreply 199June 11, 2019 11:12 PM

OK. Yes I am belaboring the point, but here's the thing. All of us have watched lots of movies, TV series, stories, WTF ever where there are mysteries to be unraveled and there's a plot and as the story unfolds certain things fall int place. But with this, the fucking writers ignored their own story, their own plotlines, their own characters, and just took a dump before they got out of town. Shame on them.

by Anonymousreply 200June 11, 2019 11:29 PM

Exactly that, R200.

The point at which they lost me was when they not only made a nonsensical mess of the War Between the Living and the Dead, but they made it too dark for anyone to see what the fuck was going on! AND the cinematographer came out a couple of days later and sniffed "Well, everyone needed to adjust their TV sets better", the arrogant douche. That was a bucket of cold water on my fandom hardon, I've never seen such a letdown in my life.

by Anonymousreply 201June 11, 2019 11:48 PM

For 7 years, after each season ended, I'd wait a few weeks then watch the entire season in one sitting. I can't do that this time. They've ruined a great story, and fucked over some great characters and abused the talent and skill of probably thousands of people associated with the story. I will never support D&D for anything else ever again. Indefensible.

by Anonymousreply 202June 12, 2019 2:20 AM

"The funniest thing about the whole saga? Benioff and Weiss genuinely believed their ending would be up there with Mad Men and Breaking Bad. They are the definition of mediocre white men being promoted above their capabilities."

That is so pathetic if they really believe that. But I'm not sure they do. I think they KNOW they trashed the ending given they have given no interviews about the finale.

by Anonymousreply 203June 12, 2019 2:28 AM

Dany was beautiful and the dragons were cool but after the first season I dreaded when they featured her dull storylines. Poor Jon Snow.

by Anonymousreply 204June 12, 2019 6:23 AM

R203, I think D&D KNOW that the fandom hated S8, but they probably think they're brilliant and we're just too dull-witted to appreciate their marvelous streamlining of a clunky story.

Which is bullshit, if true. They fucked up a show that had been monumentally awesome in so many ways, before they ruined it. They ought to do some reshoots of S8 before they release it into syndication, but there's no way they will.

by Anonymousreply 205June 12, 2019 6:40 AM

Maybe they kept the actor who plays Bronn alive to spite the actress who plays Cersei since she refused to do any scenes with him after their breakup

by Anonymousreply 206June 12, 2019 6:50 AM

Just like the LOST creators know they fucked up the last season

by Anonymousreply 207June 12, 2019 6:51 AM

I love the mysteries and thrillers genre and in all the years I've watched those kinds of movies I don't recall ever watching one where the ending got as fucked up as this one was.There were some where they telegraphed the ending so obviously I could figure it out half way through, but never something that just said, "All that stuff we showed you about Jon, Bran, Dany, etc.? It meant nothing. The whole storyline for certain characters was a red herring. We got you to care and to worry, and then we pissed all over you."

by Anonymousreply 208June 12, 2019 9:59 AM

Nikolaj is planning to see Gwendoline's play.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 209June 12, 2019 1:06 PM

I really cannot wait to read an expose of why and how the showrunners sabotaged the final season. For instance, a poster mentioned Cersei before. Why was that character, a principal character from the beginning and probably the top villain going into season 8, reduced into being a near extra? And not just that, most of what she did was staring out of a window, sipping wine? I couldn't believe it. I really thought Cersei was going to booby trap the Red Keep (and lots of Kings Landing) with wildfire in a desperate attempt to hold off Dany and hold onto the throne. That would have been the perfect way for her to go out. Instead, she became inordinately ineffectual, a whimpering coward buried by rubble. As for Bronn, heck, he made out much better than her. The illiterate mercenary became the richest man in the realm and master of coin, a position for which he was laughably unsuited for. It does make you think backstage machinations were involved.

by Anonymousreply 210June 12, 2019 4:06 PM

"All that stuff we showed you about Jon, Bran, Dany, etc.? It meant nothing."

What about all that stuff about the Night's King and the Armies of the Dead? First scene in the show is about them, they're there for seven and a half fucking years... and *poof*, the threat evaporates and everyone is back to fighting over the Iron Throne! My GAWD what a letdown that was!

And I'm with R210. I want to see the expose. It's got to happen someday.

by Anonymousreply 211June 12, 2019 4:11 PM

Bronn is a cockroach. Of course he survived.

by Anonymousreply 212June 12, 2019 4:32 PM

Bronn should have lost everything, but survived to start over. He's a cockroach all right, better he survive all the drama and dragon fire and end up broke and sailing to the Summer Isles to look for pussy and work as a sellsword, than end up where he did. Sure, the audience would collectively thank him for the good times we shared and know that he's going to be okay wherever he lands, than wonder if he's going to leave anything in the fucking royal treasury.

Everything about the final scenes was wrong.

by Anonymousreply 213June 12, 2019 7:38 PM

I think it's hilarious that you fools think Benioff and Weiss are responsible for the way the show ended. George R. R. Martin (ugh) conceived of this entire world and he was an executive producer on the series. If you think the showrunners wrote anything without his express approval (if not explicit instructions) then I don't know what to tell you.

Pretty sure the show ended the way it was supposed to end.

I wouldn't do an After the Episode special either if I was David Benioff. Fuck all of you over-invested retards.

by Anonymousreply 214June 13, 2019 4:23 AM

[quote]Cersei was going to booby trap the Red Keep (and lots of Kings Landing) with wildfire

If she had done that you would be bitching about how you had already seen her do this before. Obviously.

I agree that Cersei should have gone out in some sort of faceoff with Daenarys (I mean, Dynasty-esque would that have been) but we knew she was going to get it one way or the other. I have always felt sympathetic towards this character, so while she deserved to die, at least she got to die in the arms of the person she loved. Even if that person was her own brother.

by Anonymousreply 215June 13, 2019 4:27 AM

"If you think the showrunners wrote anything without his express approval (if not explicit instructions) then I don't know what to tell you. "

Since I don't know the terms of the contract GRRM signed with HBO, I don't know if HBO was legally obligated to use every word of the outline GRRM gave them, or if GRRM had the kind of script approval J.K. Rowling had in the "Harry Potter" movies. Because FYI if GRRM didn't have script approval and HBO wasn't contractually obligated to use GRRM's outline exactly as written, then the showrunners would consider themselves free to change the ending to anything they liked.

Of course if they did change GRRM's ending then GRRM will probably say so some day... but not now. After the syndication rights have been sold and the DVD sales have peaked.

by Anonymousreply 216June 13, 2019 5:24 AM

R215 Jaime going back to her was bullshit, especially with him saying that he never cared about innocents which contradicts his whole "kingslayer" story arch when he revealed in season three that he killed the Mad King to save innocents.

by Anonymousreply 217June 13, 2019 11:04 AM

I hope Carice wins Guest Actor Emmy... I think she gave the most underrated performance throughout the whole series and deserves it, playing a very divisive character so effectively and being the 'magical' element of the show.

by Anonymousreply 218June 13, 2019 1:31 PM

I get that GRRM wanted it to end the way it ended. But IMO howD&D went about it was crap. That's the issue. It was hurried, and it was dumbed down, and rendered almost all the surviving principal characters' storylines up to that moment irrelevant. Allowing for the fact they wanted Dany to go crazy and burn them all like her crazy daddy, as I've said repeatedly, once Jon kills Dany, and that had to be a major climactic event, and Drogon spared Jon, and flew away with Dany, everything turned to total shit. Total shit. The labored contrived rambling bullshit they had Tyrion deliver, Grey Worm arresting Jon, the absurd small council meeting with Bronn, and so much more, it was all bullshit. Terrible insulting bullshit. Poorly conceived and poorly executed.

by Anonymousreply 219June 13, 2019 3:35 PM

It wasn’t the ending that GRRM gave them. It couldn’t possibly be because they cut out so many characters and extended and changed the roles of so many others. Aegon was clearly merged with Jon; Tyrion was softened as a character because of the optics of vilifying someone with a disability; Cersei was similarly softened because they wanted to extend Lena’s role; Sansa isn’t raped in the books, certainly not by Ramsay; Barristan was killed earlier because D&D found the actor annoying; Bronn’s role was extended because he got high Q ratings; Jaime’s character was butchered out of spite, I suspect, because NCW kept on complaining about the direction they were taking him in; the Night King doesn’t even exist in the books, and the ‘Others’ are promised to have an entire culture, rather than just being the personification of Death.

I remember George saying that he was really annoyed that they cut out the whole Lady Stoneheart storyline: it’s obviously key to how Jaime, Brienne and Thoros’ storylines shake out in the books. They had zero interest in adapting anything faithfully after the Red Wedding, so I fail to see why they wouldn’t change the ending.

by Anonymousreply 220June 13, 2019 9:04 PM

I think GRRM told Benioff and Weiss how his story ends or rather what happens to the characters in the end. And rather than try to create a logical narrative that makes sense, those two idiots decided to race through the plot points and ignore all the beats.

by Anonymousreply 221June 14, 2019 1:41 AM

"I remember George saying that he was really annoyed that they cut out the whole Lady Stoneheart storyline"

Well they were right to do that, the Lady S. stuff in the books sucked and didn't seem to be going anywhere, IMHO it was much more fun to see little Arya take out the whole Frey clan in one dazzling scene.

But that brings us back to The Big Question... COULD D&D have changed GRRM's ending if they'd wanted to? I suspect that the contracts allowed it, if they could take out Lady Stoneheart without GRRM's blessing, then he didn't have the kind of iron-clad script approval he'd need to prevent serious changes in the plot line.

by Anonymousreply 222June 14, 2019 5:46 AM

Lady Stoneheart was a plot device, but an important one. In the books we currently have Brienne apparently luring Jaime away to his death in order to save Pod: all in the aftermath of having half her cheek bitten off when defending a group of orphans, and nearly being hung to death by LSH when she initially refused to go after Jaime. That’s building towards her having to choose between love, honour and duty, and putting her in a similar position he was in when he killed Aerys. I hate that they reduced Brienne to a moderately ugly version of Xena, and never gave her a comparable storyline. Giving Jaime the same fucking scene with Cersei over and over again for 5 seasons was unforgivable too, especially with NCW in the role.

by Anonymousreply 223June 14, 2019 3:09 PM

[R147] So Nik, is that you, or your publicist?

Since apparently NCW is now trolling Tumblr to chastise fans for posting spoilers, why would I not doubt he’s also here stirring shit up.

by Anonymousreply 224June 14, 2019 3:42 PM

Why would he do that when the show already ended a few weeks ago?

by Anonymousreply 225June 15, 2019 3:43 PM

[quote]I think it's hilarious that you fools think Benioff and Weiss are responsible for the way the show ended. George R. R. Martin (ugh) conceived of this entire world and he was an executive producer on the series. If you think the showrunners wrote anything without his express approval (if not explicit instructions) then I don't know what to tell you.

Executive producer in credit only as per his contract. Doesn’t mean a thing. By his own admission, GRRM has had little to no input on the series since season four when he and Benioff and Weiss had their falling out. If you want to understand exactly how much control D&D had over the series versus GRRM, read the Vanity Fair piece on the Purple Wedding script.

What is most likely is that GRRM gave D&D broadstroke endings for the major characters: Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Bran. Probably Tyrion as well. The Cersei and Jaime of the books are so different to what the second half of the show depicted, to think they’re going to die together under a pile of bricks is pretty absurd. Cersei’s role was fluffed and broadened by D&D because they really liked Headey and her performance (I’m guessing her Q ratings were strong too).

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 226June 15, 2019 5:03 PM

Lena was in Comic-Con in Spain and she said that she did film a miscarriage scene after Jaime left but she had no idea why it got cut. She said it was traumatizing to film. And it would have served her character differently had it been left in.

She was disappointed that she didn't film that much or that many scenes with the rest of the cast in season 8. She wanted Arya to kill her with Jaime's face. I think it was 15 days she filmed (according to one recap).

She said she thinks Cersei didn't kill Tyrion when she had the opportunity to do it (twice) because she still loves him so much for his intelligence and wit, yadda yadda. She loved that Jaime and Cersei died together because their bond was so strong and she loved him in the end but "the bastard" shouldn't have done that to Brienne.

She cried after she finished filming her last scene and said Cersei was her favorite character to play. She considered her to be a "broken survivor."

by Anonymousreply 227June 16, 2019 1:29 AM

"She said she thinks Cersei didn't kill Tyrion when she had the opportunity to do it (twice) because she still loves him so much for his intelligence and wit, yadda yadda."

Oh bull. Cersei has never seen Tyrion as anything but a threat and an embarrassment, and in the books she puts a huge price on his head and lusts for his blood.

by Anonymousreply 228June 16, 2019 1:33 AM

I think Lena was trying to makes sense of it--plus, she's very good friends with Peter Dinklage. I think I read somewhere that it was Peter who told her about the part of Cersei, which she pursued.

Remember the earlier season when she clearly puts a bounty on Tyrion's head after she accuses him of killing Joffrey? She clearly hated him and wanted him dead--and it didn't matter if he was innocent. I also remember those scenes where she hired assassins to find Tyrion and kill him; instead they brought her heads of various anonymous dwarfs. Then Qyburn, the mad scientist, wanted those heads to experiment with.

by Anonymousreply 229June 16, 2019 1:42 AM

"She considered her to be a "broken survivor."

I laughed.

by Anonymousreply 230June 16, 2019 7:01 AM

I want to be in the middle of a Jamie Lannister/Jon Snow sandwich. YUM

by Anonymousreply 231June 16, 2019 7:05 AM

[quote]I think Lena was trying to makes sense of it

It sounds like she’s a bit daft. She hated Tyrion and never loved Jaime. A “broken survivor”? Gross.

by Anonymousreply 232June 16, 2019 12:31 PM

Lena Headey: ‘I wanted a better death for Cersei’

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 233June 16, 2019 1:25 PM

Cersei’s ending was pathetic. I never even bought that she really loved her children, let alone Tyrion or Jaime. Look how she reacted to Tommen’s death, which she indirectly caused. To have her weeping over her unborn child, when she nearly committed suicide and took Tommen with her back when Stannis attempted to sack King’s Landing, is an utter joke.

They should have kept the miscarriage in and then had her go full on villain in S8, rather than let her mope around and screw Euron to conceal a pregnancy that should have been showing long before she told him he was the father. D&D just didn’t give a fuck. At least this goes some way to prove that there was originally another ending in mind.

by Anonymousreply 234June 16, 2019 9:12 PM

Her pregnancy WAS showing in S8, her lower abdomen was a bit thick in profile. Euron had to have noticed, but I suppose he was smart enough to play along because he knew she'd need a husband very, very soon.

And I can totally see Cersei weeping if she'd lost the baby! Weeping with anger and frustration because she'd lost something she could use against Jamie, not out of love or anything.

by Anonymousreply 235June 16, 2019 10:16 PM

Wasn't Dany supposed to be pregnant the final season? There was so much foreshadowing and talk of Dany not being able to have children in season 7 that it seemed to be building up to her having a miracle baby by Jon in season 8.

by Anonymousreply 236June 16, 2019 11:39 PM

r236 There was no way for her to get pregnant again as her first child basically destroyed her uterus and the birthing canal on his way out. You don't come back from that.

by Anonymousreply 237June 16, 2019 11:45 PM

"There was no way for her to get pregnant again as her first child basically destroyed her uterus and the birthing canal on his way out."

We don't know that. All we really know is that Miri Maz Duur SAID that Dany could never bear a living child, and BTW she said that there would be no "living child", not that there would be no pregnancies. Dany's child and gynecological issues were never described in the book or TV show by anyone but the hostile priestess woman, we don't even know the details or even that the Dothrak baby was deformed. For all we know, it was born healthy and the priestess woman killed it. And the only other thing we know is that Dario didn't get Danerys pregnant.

So yes, there was plenty of room in the story for a Targaryan pregnancy, and I'd bet good money that it was there in the early drafts of the script for S8.

by Anonymousreply 238June 16, 2019 11:56 PM

I saw Gwen Christie’s play last night. She is really phenomenal in it; playful and mischievous and sort of goofy. It was interesting seeing her playing a happy character. She’s very attractive in real life, at least with her stage makeup and gowns.

by Anonymousreply 239June 17, 2019 12:22 AM

I have never been more disappointed with the climax of a show in my life. It's not the plot line I object to but how rushed it was.

by Anonymousreply 240June 17, 2019 1:03 AM

R239, How great for you! I'm so jealous. I really like her a lot. Isn't she in "Midsummer Night's Dream?" Who is she playing? Titania?

by Anonymousreply 241June 17, 2019 1:39 AM

She’s multi rolling Titania and Hippolyta.

by Anonymousreply 242June 17, 2019 9:35 AM

R238 They straight up switched Dany and Cersei’s storylines in S8. It’s obvious. What a massive clusterfuck!

by Anonymousreply 243June 17, 2019 8:00 PM

I guess Gwendoline's Emmy nod chances are looking good enough to merit a Gold Derby interview . . . ?? Or is that just something her agent finagled?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 244June 17, 2019 9:24 PM

I wish that disher with the friend from the Belfast crew would come back. I'm dying for more post-series tea and people are taking too long to spill it.

by Anonymousreply 245June 18, 2019 4:23 AM

Me too. An I wonder what´s going on between Nikolaj and Gwen. There have been a lot of memes with that thing "find yourself a man that looks at you the way Nikolaj Coster looks at Gwendoline Christie", and all those interviews where he seems to be in love with her… Now in Instagram he´s posted photos with Lena (when they died and now, with his Golden hand) but not a single photo with Gwendoline. He´s said he is going to see her at her play, but she´s replied with an only emoticon of party, not like she´s done with her other partners are the show, to whom she sent them kisses and hearts. I wonder if so much attention from fans are making Nikolaj´s wife be jealous, or Nikolaj and Gwendoline did have something, as rumours said, and now it´s over, or they are having something but they are hiding and playing cold so fans forget about them… it´s quite weird.

by Anonymousreply 246June 18, 2019 10:31 AM

I also wish the guy with the connection would come back, surely there is more to report from the set.

For some reason I find myself perversely interested in what’s going on with Nikolaj and Gwen. The fact that other cast and crew are picking up on their dynamic is very telling. Even GRRM was quoted as saying they have great sexual chemistry. In that video that has 3 million views I would say Nikolaj’s constant flirting sometimes borders on seriously unprofessional behavior. I watched it again noticed something strange - when he is joking and says ‘you’re so good’ he then looks to the left and after a moment says ‘in our scenes’. Looking to the left is a sign of lying (if you’re to believe undergraduate psychology courses). I bet he was thinking of their real life experiences and Gwen’s immediate blushing just confirms it.

by Anonymousreply 247June 18, 2019 2:41 PM

[quote]For some reason I find myself perversely interested in what’s going on with Nikolaj and Gwen. The fact that other cast and crew are picking up on their dynamic is very telling.

I don't think anything is going on with them besides friendship. I think Gwendoline is very conscious of the fact that fans scrutinize every interaction she has with Nikolaj and, therefore, is more subdued when she engages with him online. A few seasons ago someone posted pictures of how she kisses the other male actors like Charles Dance, Jack Gleeson, Kit and Pedro Pascal but she doesn't do that with Nik and I believe it's because doing so would add more fuel to the speculation.

During an appearance at a convention Lena said they filmed a scene where Cersei miscarries.  I assume that's why she's shown drinking wine and shoots the idiot Euron that look when he talks about a baby. What was the point of the pregnancy? Just to show her have yet another loss? It served nothing to the story and was a waste of precious screentime.

by Anonymousreply 248June 18, 2019 7:09 PM

r246, I don’t know anything about the GOT cast specifically but I’ve worked on TV sets a lot, and seen fans tie themselves into knots overanalysing people’s social media. I’ve had fans scrutinise my social media and try to analyse every little thing I do, and I can tell you it is pointless.

Everything that fans see (including interviews, social media, public appearances) makes up like 0.1% of the person’s life. And fans have no idea what’s going on in the other 99.99%. Whenever fans have made conclusions about my or my co-workers lives and relationships from our social media, they are always wrong, because they simply know nothing about us.

It’s possible they’ve stopped interacting because they know about the shippers (I have close friends and even partners I’ve agreed to never interact with on social media bc their fans are so obsessive). It could just be she fancied using that emoji. Or that it represents the vibe of the play which is staged as one big party the audience (literally) joins in with. You honestly can’t tell anything from shit like that.

by Anonymousreply 249June 18, 2019 9:55 PM

I don't scrutinize emojis but it did strike me as incongruent that the duo so highlighted in preseason press (and press for the first few episodes during the season iirc) have been so muted since midseason. I was hoping for a farewell post from Coster-Waldau about my favorite character but he's been silent about Jaime. He's had those sweet posts about Lena/Cersei and nothing about his own character's death? Weird.

As for the lack of engagement about Gwendoline or her character, I read through their interviews that they had a difference of opinions on their own endings and the Jaime Brienne relationship ending so unpleasantly. NCW and GC seemed very tight before but maybe some sourness creeped in after all. Too bad but shit happens.

R249 makes a great point though, about social media not showing the real picture of people's lives (lol thinking of my own SM accounts). Who knows.

But I am curious about all of this in the casts' post-series changed landscape, especially in the face of the now seemingly obsolete rumors of them in the past.

Really I just want the complete dish on what the fuck went down behind the scenes of this disastrous season. My popcorn stockpile is waiting.

by Anonymousreply 250June 18, 2019 10:34 PM

Look, dude, you're displaying an unhealthy level of interest in the private lives of strangers. Back away from Nik and Gwen, for your own good and ours!

As for Jamie and Brienne, she should have been the one to dump him, when she realized what a self-absorbed mess he really is. But there wasn't time for that, there wasn't time for anything to be done right.

by Anonymousreply 251June 18, 2019 11:41 PM

[quote]I don't scrutinize emojis

Sure, Jan.

by Anonymousreply 252June 19, 2019 12:18 AM

[quote] Look, dude, you're displaying an unhealthy level of interest in the private lives of strangers.

Lol what website do you think you're on???

by Anonymousreply 253June 19, 2019 1:06 AM

R253, right??

R251, Why don't you go tell that to the many people on this site that shit themselves at the mere thought of Richard Madden, Meghan Markle, or any number of other DL favorites? You only need to look at the active threads to see it.

Anyway, I'm sure NCW has banged GC multiple times. However, he will never divorce his wife due to his financial issues and I don't see her leaving her BF due to his fashion industry connections, but it seems like they are still on speaking terms at the moment. Unless an insider has more details we aren't going to find out more, especially now that the show has ended.

by Anonymousreply 254June 19, 2019 2:07 AM

Oh dear, the reddit and tumblr shippers have invaded. Y’all are reading way too much into absolutely nothing.

Everybody in the cast is going to play nice right now due to Emmys. But one recent bit of gossip is apparently Lena has yet another failed relationship/marriage under her belt as she and her latest husband have split. Wonder if she’ll claim to be broke again.

by Anonymousreply 255June 19, 2019 2:27 AM

"[R251], Why don't you go tell that to the many people on this site that shit themselves at the mere thought of Richard Madden, Meghan Markle, or any number of other DL favorites?"

I have, I have! And in much ruder language than I've used to you, because at least you have decent taste in ships!

But that doesn't make scrutinizing strangers' emojis any less pathetic.

by Anonymousreply 256June 19, 2019 2:46 AM

Wonder if Lena is bipolar? She does go through men quite a bit. I have a feeling they can't handle the crazy after a while. She sounds like high maintenance. She recently said she had to move back into her parents house with her kids while her house was being worked on. I'm thinking there was more to it.

by Anonymousreply 257June 19, 2019 2:55 AM

Lena is going through a midlife crisis. She's almost 50 and is a single mum. She can't keep a man because of her mental problems. Her looks aren't enough to get men to stay.

by Anonymousreply 258June 19, 2019 6:51 AM

A single mum with 2 children who have 2 different baby daddies

by Anonymousreply 259June 19, 2019 6:55 AM

[quote]A single mum with 2 children who have 2 different baby daddies

And?

by Anonymousreply 260June 19, 2019 1:52 PM

[quote] She can't keep a man because of her mental problems.

Her instagram message seems to bear that out.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 261June 19, 2019 6:05 PM

This is a gossip site. The day we stop poking our noses into celebrities’ private lives is the day this stops being Datalounge.

Lena is a hot mess. She’s the type who seems constantly addicted to drama in a relationship.

Regarding Nikolaj and Gwendoline, I still can’t wrap my head around one of the directors admitting in an interview that during filming of the scene where Jaime leaves Brienne, he pulled Nikolaj aside and told him to say “I don’t love you anymore” during one of the takes just so they could get the reaction shot where Brienne breaks down out of Gwen, who wasn’t expecting it. All apparently because he knew how close they are in real life, and that it would provoke the reaction the director wanted. It’s just strange.

I’ve been LMAO ever since someone spotted them together at that Cate Blanchett and Stannis’ S&M inspired play at the National theatre a few months ago. Going to see Cate Blanchett wear a strap-on on-stage seems like an odd choice for a date night with a married friend/co-worker.

by Anonymousreply 262June 19, 2019 7:05 PM

Nikolaj buying a house in LA makes a little more sense now . . .

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 263June 19, 2019 8:29 PM

Yes, it´s strange the director asked Nikolaj to tell Gwendoline "I don´t love you anymore". His character was leaving her, but if the director was trying to use their friendship, that "I don´t love you" to make her feel more hurted is too mucho, isn´t it? It would have been more normal saying "this is the last time we´re going to work together" or something like that, I don´t know...

About the house Nikolaj has bought, I heard it was an apartment. I was surprised he did buy it, because being an actor, who knows in which location he is going to be working? Many times they spend their days at hotels. And if he is doing a long show, meybe rent an aparment... but... buying? And that thing of the apartment sounds more like a bachelor´s nest, not for taking a family in. I guess... Also... staying there will probably give him more privacy than if he goes to London where Gwendoline is... in case there really is something there going on...

by Anonymousreply 264June 19, 2019 9:08 PM

It’s a house for Nik and his family. Don’t know wtf you’re talking about r264.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 265June 19, 2019 9:24 PM

Unfortunately, the insane women from the Richard Madden/Armie Hammer/Sam Heughan threads have found this one :(

by Anonymousreply 266June 19, 2019 9:38 PM

Well, it´s been said his wife doesn´t want to live in the US, that she prefers staying in Denmark, where their daughters are. So it surprises me that a man that travels abroad quite often because of his job buys a house in LA instead of renting. Or better said, "a hillhouse bungalow".

by Anonymousreply 267June 19, 2019 9:42 PM

R262, Weren't they outed at that play by some random person on twitter, too? I also laughed. Just the two of them - no partners, no other co-workers, no other friends - and people are trying to say it wasn't a date. Oh please. Cause they're such "best mates" and not actually fuck buddies.

by Anonymousreply 268June 19, 2019 11:14 PM

If they were really fucking I can't believe they'd be so brazen as to go out on a "date" together to such a public place. Neither is exactly unrecognizable and GC could be spotted from the moon due to her height and hair color.

by Anonymousreply 269June 20, 2019 12:27 AM

Speaking of hot messes, any sightings of Kit recently? I thought he'd be out of rehab by now.

by Anonymousreply 270June 20, 2019 12:39 AM

He’s been spotted in London so it sounds like he’s done with rehab.

by Anonymousreply 271June 20, 2019 12:51 AM

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 272June 20, 2019 12:55 AM

Director Miguel Sapochnik said that they debated having direwolves participate in the Battle of Winterfell. I would have loved that and it would have been a great return of Nymeria and her own wolfpack.

[quote]There were many things that happened that people would have been so happy to have happen. Attack of direwolves and crazy stuff. At some point you’re like, ’50 direwolves attacking an undead dragon does not a good movie make.’ [We were cautious it might become] a remix of every battle we’ve done.

by Anonymousreply 273June 20, 2019 1:12 PM

R273 I don’t understand how they had such a huge budget, and yet the end result was so pedestrian. Sapochnik also stated that he wanted to kill Jorah in that initial Dothraki charge during the battle, but D&D dug their heels in. The problem (aside from it being too fucking dark to see most of it) was that that the battle never felt like it had any real stakes. None of the really major players died, and Arya killing the Night King was obviously retconned in when they decided she wasn’t going to kill Cersei. I don’t believe for a second that they’d had it planned for years, and she’s obviously not going to have that job in the books because the NK doesn’t exist. Nothing was earned.

R264 It’s not that surprising that Nikolaj has bought a house in LA, even without taking the pilot he’s filming into consideration. Legal problems aside, GoT has made him a millionaire and real estate is a good investment. Privacy is a factor in celebs buying property in LA too. I’m amused that he’s got designers in to renovate though: Goldenboi has finally realised he has to network to get roles, and that he needs a suitable space to do it.

by Anonymousreply 274June 20, 2019 2:26 PM

(R274) Thank you, it´s a pleasure reading you.

by Anonymousreply 275June 20, 2019 5:48 PM

I like Gwendoline Christie but she is no saint. She was in an odd relationship with Tom Hiddleston a while back. She was even photographed giving him a lap dance. And that photo is still around on various sites. Supposedly, she is in an open relationship with this fashion designer Giles Deacon. About a couple of years ago, there was a blind item that was clearly about her having a threesome with two men at some event. Also, she likes to party big time--the girl likes her booze (well, she IS British) and cocaine. Loves, loves cocaine! Rumor has it she had to get her nose fixed after she blew her nose out from all that cocaine intake and after being hit on the set of "Game of Thrones." (I'm betting that injury was from the scene between her and the actor who played the Hound.)

by Anonymousreply 276June 22, 2019 12:50 PM

This Gwen chick used to go to this club I went to every Friday back in 2008-ish.

My friend text me the other day like 'remember Trailer Trash Gwen; always off her face in the bathroom? She's in Game of Thrones now!'

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 277June 22, 2019 5:32 PM

[quote]I like Gwendoline Christie but she is no saint. She was in an odd relationship with Tom Hiddleston a while back.

This is what happens when old rumors resurface and context has been lost along the way. From what I recall people called their relationship odd because on Myspace when they would communicate or flirt as some fans categorized it, Tom would refer to Gwendoline as Mommy and she would refer to her as his son. At the time they were playing mother and son in a play and all of a sudden people thought they were engaging publically in roleplay.

When I think of Gwen as a party girl I think of this image.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 278June 23, 2019 1:09 AM

R276 Nope, nothing ever leaves the internet

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 279June 23, 2019 1:15 AM

Anybody care to speculate/gossip about the main cast's disposition re: D&D and vice versa, based on those wrap day clips released by HBOAsia?

Like is it any surprise that Sansa got one of the only good endings since Sophie is apparently one of their "favorite humans on the planet"? Or the way one D handled NCW's face like he was some fucking prize animal they wanted to show off?? (Yes I am a bitter Jaime fan.)

Still awaiting my scalding hot tea. Come back, Belfast crew insider!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 280June 23, 2019 12:25 PM

How long will we have to wait for a juicy oral history of what happened behind the scenes in season 8? Ten years? Sooner if D&D’s next project fails?

by Anonymousreply 281June 23, 2019 1:21 PM

I think there's been ample shade from quite a few of the cast for speculation to run pretty rampant over the last month. I don't think we're likely to see any of the younger main cast speak out against the ending or the writing, however. They owe David and Dan too much. Plus, I think they obviously care about each other, so why you might bitch about your family to close friends, you certainly don't lambast them in public.

by Anonymousreply 282June 23, 2019 1:22 PM

[quote]Or the way one D handled NCW's face like he was some fucking prize animal they wanted to show off??

Dan Weiss also played with Kristofer's beard. I think you're reading too much into this. Crew might spill some beans, but if that doc was anything to go by, there's probably a huge amount of loyalty to the showrunners. I think Bernadette Caulfield came off really well. She seems like the producer that did all the heavy lifting for D&D and a devoted boss to her crew.

by Anonymousreply 283June 23, 2019 1:26 PM

I think time and distance will reveal how D&D changed as the show became more successful. They both have a malicious streak in them and they're not people you want to cross. I think the cast will keep quiet because they want to keep working and it helps if powerful people want to hire you. D&D didn't get along with the actor who played Ser Barristan Selmy so they killed him off. D&D are going to be doing the hiring for a lot of projects over the next few years, and no one wants to be on their shit list.

As I read various things it seems to me Nicolaj Coster Waldau pushed back from time to time, but he got away with it because he got along with D&D, but I don't think NCW is a huge fan of theirs. I think he's conflicted.Because on one hand he is a much much bigger star right now than he ever was before. OTOH, he had obvious disagreements with them about his character arc and the storyline. But he will say what he needs to say.

IMO I think NCW and Gwen started as mates. Buddies. They became friends. But then their characters fall in love and it's been awkward for them. I remember that when Gwen was interviewed she said at a certain point she had to stop reading and get up and walk around. And the interviewer asked her who was the first person she called after reading the script, and she immediately pointed to Nicolaj. She said she turned red in the face, etc. So I just don't see them as having an affair.

Not saying he was a saint, but I don't think anything happened with Gwen. He would be incredibly discreet if he were up to something. He has teen aged daughters and he's very close to them. Maybe they haven't watched him on GoT, but I'm sure they have friends who have .Friends who would want to get to know Dad a lot better. So they'd be keeping an eye on dad once they realized that other women were looking at him as a sexual being. Most kids don't think of their parents as sexual.

by Anonymousreply 284June 23, 2019 1:47 PM

[quote]D&D didn't get along with the actor who played Ser Barristan Selmy so they killed him off.

See, that's not how I read it. They decided they were going to kill Selmy off in the show even though the character is still alive in the books, and Ian McElhinney disagreed with the choice when they told him and pushed back a bit. I think you're assuming there was discord before, but I think it more likely they just didn't know what to write for the character anymore.

by Anonymousreply 285June 23, 2019 2:00 PM

[quote]See, that's not how I read it. They decided they were going to kill Selmy off in the show even though the character is still alive in the books, and Ian McElhinney disagreed with the choice when they told him and pushed back a bit. I think you're assuming there was discord before, but I think it more likely they just didn't know what to write for the character anymore.

Yeah, they killed off Selmy and McElhinney, not wanting to lose that check, pushed back mightily which just made D&D happier that they killed him off. The first I heard of this when when Kit, John Bradley (Sam) and D&D did a panel at Oxford Union and IIRC they didn't name names, just spoke of an actor who pushed back. It was McElhinney who put it all out there.

I understand actors feeling they know better for their characters but ultimately they are just vessels for the work and they don't own it. Mace Raydar, Jojen Reed, Stannis, Selyse and Shireen are all alive in the books and the actors accepted their TV fates. At least when Stephan Dillane whinged about the show it was because he didn't he couldn't find his way around the character and the writing.

by Anonymousreply 286June 23, 2019 2:49 PM

What about Alexander Siddig? Esme Blanco? They have their own stories. Apparently Siddig was told of his character’s death by an intern.

by Anonymousreply 287June 23, 2019 3:30 PM

D&D were absolute dickheads whose egos got increasingly inflated as the show got more successful. What they did to Esme Blanco was gross, as was them apparently taking such pleasure in killing off Barristan when they knew McIlhenny was so keen to continue. (Of course he wanted the pay check, he’s an older character actor, but he also cared about the show and the character.) Siddig had blocked out time in his schedule for 5 or 6 eps, but then got a phone call to say he was only needed for one. It’s unprofessional, as was them spending the time they were supposed to be in the editing suite reviewing footage instead hanging out with the porn actors they hired as prostitutes. Allegedly, that’s how a consensual sex scene between Jaime and Cersei turned into rape. By all means, be protective of your project, but stop taking your hands off the fucking wheel and wondering why you get pushback when you do. Oh and maybe lay off the coke for a bit!

I saw the BTS video of Dan reaching out to grab Nikolaj under the chin, and I don’t give a fuck who you are, you don’t touch someone like that unless you’re invited to. I’d pull away if a friend did that to me, let alone someone I work with. It’s something you do instinctively when someone goes anywhere near your throat. That coupled with them announcing that they only hired him because he was cheap was some passive aggressive bullshit. Everything I’ve heard about them suggests they are petty enough to have taken NCW publicly calling them out on the direction of his character arc badly. They might have been the showrunners, but it was the source material originally available to them, and the talent of the cast, crew, directors and producers that made GoT special, not a couple of mediocre writers.

R284 Erm, I fail to see how Gwendoline needing to go for a walk after reading the scene where Jaime and Brienne part ways has any bearing on two actors potentially knocking each other off.

by Anonymousreply 288June 23, 2019 8:51 PM

(R288 ) I totally agree with you about that video of Dan grabbing Nikolaj. It was disgusting and you can feel how Nikolaj is totally uncomfortable with that. The more I know about D & D, the less professional people seem to me.

About Gwendoline and Nikolaj, I think that it´s beeing very commented the incredible chemistry they have, both as actors and in real life (their videos with GOT interviews have millions of viewers. Here at The Data Lounge, it´s been commented that they have had or have an affair. I don´t know if that´s true or they are only really good friends, but there are out there a lot of photos of Nik looking adoringly to Gwen, and these photos weren´t at all alike that at that Emmy Ceremony were Nikolaj´s wife went. So I really don´t know what to think, just that I love watching them together, they do transmit a lot of good things, they are very funny together and I wished there was a new project where we could see them together. In fact, I´d love if there was some sort of spin-off of Jaime and Brienne, really following the books. It´s a pity that there weren´t more scenes of these too together, and D & D made Jaime go back to Cersei. Their scenes together were, by far, my favorite ones in GOT.

by Anonymousreply 289June 23, 2019 9:28 PM

Lena is an amazing person and actress. Nik and Gwen are just friends.

by Anonymousreply 290June 23, 2019 9:43 PM

Holy Christ you people are a sad bunch of moony fraus.

by Anonymousreply 291June 23, 2019 10:41 PM

Yeah, I don't know what happened to this thread. Apparently, touching a friend's chin that you've known for a decade is LITERAL VIOLENCE now.

by Anonymousreply 292June 23, 2019 10:58 PM

Seems like maybe some overinvested stans got bored after canon sank their ship and decided to try to stir shit up here instead. As if Nikolaj would ever touch Gwen Christie lmao.

If anything Lena Headey seems much more his type once you look at his rl spouse. Plus, you know, they had actual onscreen chemistry vs the bizarre GC/NCW fanservice kiss that was like someone mashing two lifeless plastic dolls together.

by Anonymousreply 293June 24, 2019 12:10 AM

I do not understand this thread. Many Lers like to claim everyone they like as Gay. Why are you making up hetero lies?

by Anonymousreply 294June 24, 2019 12:19 AM

Gwen was nearly in a play I wrote (she’s worked with my director several times) but passed to do Dream at the Bridge.

That’s not very interesting but it’s interesting to me.

Gutted that she ditched me for Nick Hytner!

by Anonymousreply 295June 24, 2019 12:28 AM

While DB Weiss grabbing other men's beards is really fucking weird, it's hardly sexual assault. Calm down just a little bit.

R284 - I don't understand what his kids have to do with it? What are they gonna do, say "Dad, don't look at other women!"? It's not like they're around 24/7 to police their father, they're teenagers and are probably absorbed in their own lives at this point and not even thinking about that at all.

R293 - Yeah but for all her instability, Lena doesn't seem like she sleeps around that much (unless an insider can say more, in that case please dish). However, Gwen seems pretty loose so I wouldn't doubt she made passes at a few guys and saw what stuck. Maybe NCW, maybe not.

R294 - Because this is mostly fraus and it's based on some rumors that have been circulating for years at this point.

by Anonymousreply 296June 24, 2019 1:05 AM

Lol at r293. Can always tell a batshit Lena stan. Are you the odious Brooklyn bitch or the crazy Italian tumblr lady?

by Anonymousreply 297June 24, 2019 1:11 AM

Interesting, R295 What's Gwen's rep like in theatre circles? Must be good enough since you and/or your director wanted to work with her. Hope you can snag her next time!

R294 I'm all ears if anyone has gossip about gay/bi cast hookups. But Richard Madden's already got his own dedicated thread and Kit's all tucked away post rehab. Did always wonder if Sophie Turner's giant girl crush on Natalie Dormer amounted to anything though...

by Anonymousreply 298June 24, 2019 1:44 AM

[quote] the bizarre GC/NCW fanservice kiss that was like someone mashing two lifeless plastic dolls together.

R293 Funny, I'm pretty sure that's how I described the Jon & Dany sex scene at the end of season 7.

by Anonymousreply 299June 24, 2019 2:09 AM

What hetero sex rumors are we going to start today?

by Anonymousreply 300June 24, 2019 5:59 AM

[quote]What hetero sex rumors are we going to start today?

A friend of a friend of the cousin of the show's caterer told me that Dame Diana Rigg would give Charles Dance the sloppiest of blowjobs in between scenes.

by Anonymousreply 301June 24, 2019 6:05 AM

Diana Rigg and Charles Dance are unapologetic scene stealers.

by Anonymousreply 302June 24, 2019 6:07 AM

I unironically lowkey shipped Lady O and Tywin. Just imagine the ultimate power couple potential. In fact their scenes are enhanced by the idea of them as bitter ex lovers from their youth. So yeah fake hetero rumors about those two actors serves my needs well.

Keep em coming...

by Anonymousreply 303June 24, 2019 6:28 AM

From the moment Lady Olenna showed up, demanding her cheese I knew she was going to be an outstanding character. Dame Diana's four Emmy nominations were deserved but I can't believe Charles Dance wasn't nominated. The scene where he's dressing down Jaime as he skins the stag was incredible.

by Anonymousreply 304June 24, 2019 6:45 AM

where's my finn jones and gethin anthony sex tape?

by Anonymousreply 305June 24, 2019 7:55 AM

Dame Diana is far too old for Charles Dance. He likes women who are at least half his age, and has a rep for shoving his tongue down co-stars throats. I’m surprised he didn’t get #MeToo’d. Wasn’t there a rumour that he was one of the people making out with Gwen at a premiere a few years ago?

Gwen is bi. Back in her Brighton days that wasn’t even close to being a secret. She’d probably describe herself as pan. I can’t for the life of me imagine her in anything other than an open relationship. According to the stuff I’ve heard about her partner over the years, by all accounts he was fine with his exes fucking around when they were together, so it figures.

Look, I don’t know if Gwen and Nikolaj hooked up, but if you think a straight guy wouldn’t fuck in someone who’s an absolute freak in the sack because of their looks, then you don’t know most straight men. I’ve always thought NCW tries a little too hard with the family man image.

by Anonymousreply 306June 24, 2019 8:30 PM

I didn't mind the ending of GOT. I just felt bad for Jon because he deserved better. He always tried to do the right thing.

by Anonymousreply 307June 25, 2019 4:13 AM

Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas are celebrating their 'second wedding' this weekend in Paris.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 308June 25, 2019 9:24 AM

Sounds like the writers wanted to sleep with Sophie

by Anonymousreply 309June 25, 2019 9:31 AM

I think NCW would be sensitive to his kids. He may very well fuck around.He may very well play up the "family man " image a bit too hard. But I think based on just watching him in interviews, that he feels very close to his daughters, and has been very involved in their lives; and if he is fucking around he is going to be very discreet about it. Gwendoline Christie would be way too obvious, IMO. There were plenty of opportunities for him to get with someone while on location, but it would probably be someone we haven't ever heard of or may not have noticed. He would not be the type who would deal with a public scandal well. So he'd be very sneaky.

by Anonymousreply 310June 25, 2019 3:17 PM

R307, I agree with you that the character deserved better, which is why I was totally bummed by the ending. To make my peace with it, all I could think was, "Well, at least he lives to fight another day, and Tyrion knows who he is, and how popular he is, and so does Bran. ..." IMO the dynamics for future conflicts and future betrayals was set in motion by the ending. Arya will always be Jon's defender. Sansa bears watching. And honestly, if Tyrion decided to consolidate, he'd probably let Bran have an accident. What puzzles me is if Bran is this Three eyed Raven, the repository of all human history, etc. then he has to live for thousands of years until there's another one. He can't get killed. Oh, the other thing is Bronn. In the future, I can see Bronn building up his holdings and his power and becoming a real thread to Tyrion and Bran. In my scenario, Aya would end up killing Bronn.

by Anonymousreply 311June 25, 2019 3:24 PM

Suddenly people start talking about Gwendoline as if she was a "loose" woman, and Nikolaj the perfect father that wouldn´t ever cheat on his wife. I wonder why is this happening, because in interviews he is the one that seems to flirt with Gwen and the one that makes spicy jokes, and the one who stares at her in every photo -unless his wife is around-. At least she seems to try to behave a little more. Here an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASHM3He07i0&lc=z23esl1z2raixbgukacdp435kzeqgijurrlxyt54jnxw03c010c

by Anonymousreply 312June 25, 2019 7:05 PM

Benioff and Weiss are now slated to show their faces at SD ComIc Con this year, their first public appearance since the finale.

I hope someone brings tomatoes to throw at them.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 313June 28, 2019 1:04 AM

I imagine their attitude will be "we knew we couldn't make an ending that everyone liked" and Nikolaj Coster will continue his "the end was perfect" attitude so as not to close any doors to work in the United States. I don't know if I'm ready for another hit. The disappointment is already too great.

by Anonymousreply 314June 28, 2019 9:05 AM

r311 I'm just going to let myself believe that Jon goes to live with the free people north of the wall and finds a woman there to love and have kids with and has adventures with Ghost and Tormund.

by Anonymousreply 315June 28, 2019 9:35 AM

Maisie and Varys were the only Game of Thrones people who went to Sophie's wedding.

by Anonymousreply 316July 2, 2019 5:51 AM

I had a dream about Jon Snow, I dreamed he was sitting there smiling at me and I was kissing him on the face. Awwwww

by Anonymousreply 317July 2, 2019 5:53 AM

Isn´t it quite funny that after how much has been commented of Nikolaj Coster and Gwendoline Christie´s chemistry, those videos with their interviews where people comment they seem to be in love -specially Nikolaj-, after so many years he has been travelling to see his family in Denmark and attending cons and ceremonys almost always with Gwendoline, now his family moves to the U.S. and don´t let him alone? A concert with them, now they go to the GOT con in Nashville with them? It seems a way of trying to silent the rumours and keep his image of the good husband and father. I wonder if what that guy from Belfast said was true.

by Anonymousreply 318July 14, 2019 3:48 PM

I'm assuming the Dinklage is busy shooting somewhere and couldn't make Sophie's wedding. She often mentioned that Conleth and Peter were her guardian angels during her first few years on the show.

by Anonymousreply 319July 14, 2019 4:15 PM

GRRM Benioff and Weiss have stolen so much from other stories and from other movies I hope rotten tomatoes is the least of it. They ought to be roundly booed.

by Anonymousreply 320July 14, 2019 8:17 PM

I'm a bit shocked that allegedly only Maisie and Conleth were at Sophie's wedding

by Anonymousreply 321July 14, 2019 10:24 PM

R318 It's not strange he wants to spend time with his kids and take them places, it is a little more strange his wife is suddenly with him all the time. If you'll notice every time him and Gwendoline are brought up on this site the shills come out to deny it but don't say much more than "They're not together" or "He wouldn't do that" or some version of those. He has no one to blame but himself if he made it so apparent that he was having an affair. Around late 2014 through early 2016 it seemed fairly obvious, Gwen hides it well now but around that era she was always hanging off him, touching him and there's a few videos of her giving him salacious looks. And we all know how he behaves around her. Now it just seems like he's doing damage control. Whatever, I think he benefits in this case from her not being as "typically attractive" as him so people aren't likely to believe it. Honestly I would not have believed he had an affair with her either except that what the Belfast guy said rings true, and when you compare it to everything else it makes sense.

On the last Game of Thrones thread someone said he may have also hooked up with Natalie Dormer? Does anyone know if that rumor holds any weight? Literally one person said it and it was never brought up again.

by Anonymousreply 322July 14, 2019 10:39 PM

I don't think NCW is a saint, OK? But I also believe he is really close to his two daughters and his wife. They're important to him. So if he is cheating, and he had a lot of time to do it on those long location shoots, he would probably be discreet and not obvious and definitely not with Dormer or Christie. I can see Dormer getting together with Flynn before NCW.

by Anonymousreply 323July 15, 2019 2:49 AM

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 324July 15, 2019 11:07 AM

This might be difficult to appreciate, but maybe after 9 years of constantly going off to location to shoot, and then, in between, trying to get other jobs to keep your long term career viable, maybe NCW is actually enjoying down time with his family, and moving teenagers to another country, to other schools, away from friends, etc. is not an easy task. So good for them. And honestly while he played a complex, wild character on GoT, I've seen a few of his earlier interviews and he really is awkward and boring. The Danes have an odd, nerdy sense of humor. He may be a huge star in Denmark, but here not so much. It was Jaime Lannister I was attracted to, not NCW.

by Anonymousreply 325July 15, 2019 11:36 AM

I hope Rory McCann has a fabulous career as a character actor after GoT. He deserves one. he did a brilliant job.

by Anonymousreply 326July 15, 2019 11:37 AM

(reply 324) I think you are right. It looks like "look at the perfect family we are". I don´t buy it.

by Anonymousreply 327July 15, 2019 2:55 PM

Rory was fantastic as The Hound. Why didn't his reps submit him for an Emmy nomination? Such an underrated unsung talent.

As for Nikolaj, sigh. I agree with previous posters who said he really was largely responsible for the rumors between him and Christie. There's no issue with him being close and forming a tight bond with Christie on-set. Lots of actors do that when working together. But those two really seemed to go over the flirty line to the point of inappropriate behavior particularly in light of both of them being in committed relationships. But maybe it was nothing and some gossips misinterpreted their closeness. I don't know.

Earlier this year, I watched an interview with both of them promoting the final season. I think this was for Canadian TV (not sure). Christie was trying to intelligently answer questions posed by the interviewer while NCW was sidling as close he could next to her (making her very uneasy--and she commented on this). He was also chomping on whatever he was eating and really flustering the heck out of her. At one point, she commented about this and laughed nervously to the journalist, bringing her hand up as if to form a barrier between her and NCW, who again seemed to enjoy he was unsettling her. She called him toxic, weird and unreliable. And, it didn't seem to faze him one bit. Maybe she was joking--maybe not.

On a tangential note, his daughters are beautiful! I saw a pic of him with them at the fan Game of Thrones conference held this past weekend.

by Anonymousreply 328July 15, 2019 6:33 PM

R334 As soon as I saw him turn up in the DM, I thought his PR had a hand in that. It was clearly a pap walk. It’s probably because he’ll be spending a lot of time in LA on his own if his new show gets picked up. If you do a pap walk now and again, the press will leave you alone.

Mildly amused that he’s apparently bought real estate in WeHo. I’d love to think he’s got a hot 25 year old guy on retainer, but sadly he’s definitely straight, just super gay friendly. Pedro was always all over him.

R328 Apparently Gwen has a filthy sense of humour away from the cameras. I think Nikolaj just struggles with what’s appropriate in front of them. Regardless, having seen them in interviews, there’s no doubt that they want to rail the fuck out of each other. Whether they already have or not is a different matter.

by Anonymousreply 329July 15, 2019 6:58 PM

Has he paid off his ex-manager yet?

by Anonymousreply 330July 15, 2019 7:24 PM

WHat new show?

by Anonymousreply 331July 15, 2019 7:37 PM

A pilot about agents in the 1980s.

by Anonymousreply 332July 15, 2019 9:00 PM

I think it's funny how hard NCW is trying to push that he's a wholesome family man, as if the only possible alternative is that he's a terrible cheating manwhore and a bad example for his kids. He truly protests too much. One can be a great parent but also have infidelity issues, the two are not mutually exclusive.

R328 It seemed like a joke when she called him those things, however her discomfort with his physical closeness seemed genuine.

R320 This is looking unlikely since there is word that the crowd is going to be pre-screened so that nothing controversial happens. How boring. I wanted to see those bastards get their comeuppance.

by Anonymousreply 333July 16, 2019 12:57 AM

ncw expressed interest in having a mff threesome with his wife years back but i don't know if they made it happen.

by Anonymousreply 334July 16, 2019 1:20 AM

My read of NCW is so skewed by reading the rumor here. But he and Gwen do have a touch of that hyper flirtyness that sometimes means awkward bad-idea fling happened.

Either that or NCW is a big showman who knows flirting with Brienne gets fans into his character on the show, and now that it’s over he doesn’t need to keep it up anymore. Which could be true just as easily—he clearly wants Hollywood fame. It seems like an awkward time in life to try and make it as an actor—two almost-grown kids and a wife who seems to be humoring him about it and isn’t hungry for US fame.

by Anonymousreply 335July 16, 2019 1:25 AM

I think this is really about money--him trying to make as much money as possible before the roles/opportunities dry out. I think that's a big reason why he's been doing a lot of these Con appearances. (He makes A LOT of coin with them). Maybe his daughters want to go to fancy Ivy League schools. Maybe in addition to that $2 million he owes his ex-manager, he and his wife racked up LOADS of debt that he wants to pay off.

BTW, speaking of NCW's wife, during his Q&A with a Vanity Fair writer at Con of Thrones, his wife called him on his cell to complain that the hotel had closed her from the room. (I'm guessing this was past check-out time).

by Anonymousreply 336July 16, 2019 2:18 AM

He's one of the highest paid actors on tv and that still isn't enough for him?

by Anonymousreply 337July 16, 2019 3:00 AM

It's very strange he went ahead and bought another house while he owes his ex manager $2 mil. That's not chump change, but he could have paid it off to just make it go away and he chose not to. It almost seems like a midlife crisis, with these alleged affair rumors, financial blunders and sudden famewhoring. He was gloating a few years ago that he finally paid off his mortgage for his home in Denmark, looks like that's not relevant anymore.

by Anonymousreply 338July 16, 2019 11:35 AM

He bought a house in WeHo? Are you kidding me? Not Malibu or Laurel Canyon but WeHo? I guess it's changed markedly since the last time I was there (which was 10 years ago).

by Anonymousreply 339July 16, 2019 12:25 PM

At the Game of Thrones fan conference last weekend, someone asked Jerome Flynn about the rumors between him and Lena refusing to work together. Jerome got indignant, saying not to believe everything you read. He said they have been in a scene together and that Lena is a wonderful person and a wonderful actress.

by Anonymousreply 340July 17, 2019 11:34 PM

So Benioff & Weiss have cancelled their appearance at ComiCon and so has the director, Sapochnik. Ian Glenn and Nathalie Emanuel cancelled too, but they may have an excuse since they're working.

by Anonymousreply 341July 18, 2019 3:26 AM

Sapochnik is now back in. This will be a total circle jerk unfortunately, even with those like Conleth who have previously voiced their problems with the writing for the final season.

by Anonymousreply 342July 19, 2019 4:35 PM

I honestly can’t see Benioff and Weiss having the Star Wars job for much longer. There’s way too many rumours circulating about how unprofessional they were during GoT filming, and now they’ve backed out on SDCC and left the actors to carry the can again. Disney won’t stand for that kind of bullshit.

R338 I find it really weird that not that long ago NCW was talking about stepping out of the limelight and moving to the middle of nowhere in Greenland with his wife, and now he’s bought a house in LA and is taking jobs there. Either he’s burning through money, or he’s decided becoming a hermit isn’t for him after all.

by Anonymousreply 343July 19, 2019 7:08 PM

According to quite a few actors (and Nikolaj's stand in), Benioff & Weiss were not on set that often during the filming of Season 8. Supposedly, they were barely there for the Battle of Winterfell, which went on for 55 18-hour days.

They are such jerks and cowards.

by Anonymousreply 344July 19, 2019 10:02 PM

Maybe they weren't on set, but they were there. They were meting with the directors and various cast members. THey had a way of making sure word got around. Their presence was felt, even if they weren't physically on the set every day.

by Anonymousreply 345July 19, 2019 10:47 PM

R345 C'mon, don't bullshit me. The shills ruin everything.

by Anonymousreply 346July 20, 2019 1:49 AM

Well, in their defense, they did direct the final episode so they had plenty of work to do prior to shooting the end of the series. They didn't have to be on set during the 55 nights of filming for an episode they were not directing. This is not unusual.

by Anonymousreply 347July 20, 2019 1:53 AM

On a tangential note, I would highly recommend GoT fans watch the single Q&A with Jerome Flynn at Con of Thrones. It was held last weekend. Flynn was very wry and devilishly deadpan with the audience. They really seemed to get a big kick out of him and he was a very good sport . I think he handled that embarrassing Lena question with finesse.

Nikolaj's single Q&A was fine but he was way too defensive when it comes to the writing and his story arc in the final season. The audience was very courteous and respectful toward him but the tone was very different from Flynn's Q&A,.

by Anonymousreply 348July 20, 2019 4:12 PM

I´m very disappointed on Nikolaj. He´s beein fighting to D & D trying to be the Jaime Lannister of the books. He has declared that whenever the show passed the books, he didn´t know what was next with his character, and D & D wouldn´t let him know until he received the scripts, which he found made no sense and tried to change things, but he wasn´t listened. Now he says the ending was perfect, and I see that way of being totally coward. I mean, you can be professional and loyal to the people who had made you a millionaire, but using every change he has to speak out that the writing was good, totally sucks. Also, we don´t see him anymore with Gwendoline; now his wife and daughters follow him very closely. This man has changed, and not for good.

by Anonymousreply 349July 20, 2019 6:23 PM

NCW is campaigning for that Emmy, and he knows he will not have a chance of winning if he is blabbering on about how bad the writing was the last season.

by Anonymousreply 350July 20, 2019 9:11 PM

Yeah, it’s not a huge mystery that Nikolaj doesn’t want to bad mouth the show and showrunners when he’s just received an Emmy nomination. Give it 6 months or so and the real tea starts to spill. It’s worth noting that they were all well-paid to do the SDCC panel. It’s official PR pre-Emmys.

I still think he has zero chance of winning up against Peter. Alfie and Gwendoline submitting themselves and getting the nominations is playing really well in the media. I think they have a decent chance of winning, especially Gwen who’ll almost certainly turn up to the ceremony, unlike Lena.

by Anonymousreply 351July 20, 2019 10:19 PM

Why doesn't Lena go to these events, like the premiere and the Emmys, anymore? She used to always go to them in the earlier seasons but hasn't the past few years. It can't be just Flynn. I read she has had a problem with anxiety. Is that factoring into it?

Peter is definitely going to win an Emmy for the final season. Will that make it three? But this time, he will deserve it. The only other two whom I feel deserve their Emmy nods are Emilia and Gwendoline. Unfortunately, I don't think Emilia will win her category. And, I do think the four GoT actresses will cancel each other out in the Supporting Actress category, leaving that Ozark actress for the win.

I also think GoT will get a lot of Emmys for technical components and special effects.

I wonder if Kit will attend the Emmys. He has been so low-profile since his rehab stint, which is understandable. Until recently, Kit was really the face of the show when it came to promoting it.

by Anonymousreply 352July 20, 2019 11:06 PM

I'm really curious how much money Nikolaj has made the last month going to these Cons. He must have made a mint.

by Anonymousreply 353July 20, 2019 11:10 PM

I want Maisie Williams to win the Emmy this year. I Really do. I've been so impressed with her evolution in the series, and she carried it all off flawlessly, IMO. It's a shame they can't have a tie and let Maisie and Gwendoline Christie both win. I loved Brienne of Tarth. Loved her.

by Anonymousreply 354July 22, 2019 5:12 PM

Will also add that plotwise, Arya killing the Night King was shocking, surprising and made complete sense. I haven't heard much criticism of the fact she was the one to do it. I did see complaints that it happened so quickly. But I was disgusted with the once the killed off Missandei. IT served their purpose to be a trigger for Dany to go batshit, but it was SO unnecessary. And I hated Cersei's and Jaime's death, and Jon getting arrested and sent to the Wall. It was such bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 355July 22, 2019 5:14 PM

The problem with Arya killing the Night King is that it went against what the story had been building up for years--that Jon was the Prince That Was Promised--the one foreshadowed to kill the Night King and deliver Westeros into the darkness from the dawn. That was Jon's kill--just like Euron was Yara's kill (or Theon if he had survived). Jon was the hero of the story--the song of ice and fire. Why was he resurrected then? Why? To kill Dany? It was heavily foreshadowed Jon would have a final showdown with the Night King and he'd kill him.

Missandei's death being the trigger to Dany going crazy was bullshit. Why didn't she go crazy in the first season after she lost her child and lost Khal Drago? That was nonsensical on the part of the writers.

Jaime should have killed Cersei--them being buried in rubble was very anticlimactic. Seth Rogen said as much at Comic Con last weekend and I'm glad he did. I'm SO tired of the actors spouting the "it was fantastic and the fans are just upset that GoT is over" party line. I understand why they're doing it. They don't want to alienate HBO or the showrunners (who are helming the next Star Wars trilogy). But it was so refreshing to hear people like Rogen FINALLY voice what fans have been feeling since the show ended. Good for him.

by Anonymousreply 356July 22, 2019 5:31 PM

Oops--sorry--I meant to write into the dawn from the darkness!! Sorry about that.

by Anonymousreply 357July 22, 2019 5:33 PM

Rogen also said that unlike the GoT showrunners, he's not embarrassed to show his face (he's the showrunner of "Preacher"). He also added that Bran clearly did NOT have the best story.

by Anonymousreply 358July 22, 2019 5:35 PM

The big problem with the show towards the end was that the characters all ended up serving the plot, rather than vice versa. That’s why nobody’s ending was satisfying. They settled on arcs that they thought were surprising, and instead they felt forced. It was a huge mess.

by Anonymousreply 359July 22, 2019 7:56 PM

It was as if they were hitting prescribed plots points as opposed to showing the viewers how the characters got to their end game. As a result, there was no catharsis for the audience. And the audience needs a catharsis after 8 seasons. Other showrunners get this--but not those two bozos.

by Anonymousreply 360July 22, 2019 8:44 PM

"The big problem with the show towards the end was that the characters all ended up serving the plot, rather than vice versa. That’s why nobody’s ending was satisfying."

That's a great point, concisely stated. It's totally true, they bent the characters to hit plot points on their tight schedule, and it didn't feel like the characters we knew were being themselves.

They really did forget everything that made the show work, in their rush to finish it up and get on with Star Wars.

by Anonymousreply 362July 22, 2019 9:04 PM

They should've given the show to Bryan Cogman

by Anonymousreply 363July 22, 2019 9:08 PM

[quote]that Jon was the Prince That Was Promised--the one foreshadowed to kill the Night King and deliver Westeros into the darkness from the dawn.

Jon WAS the PTWP. He brought an army and 2 dragons to the North to battle the WW and they won. No one else was taking the threat seriously until he rallied everyone.

[quote]That was Jon's kill--just like Euron was Yara's kill (or Theon if he had survived). Jon was the hero of the story--the song of ice and fire.

While I was shocked and disappointed that Jon didn't get to face off w. the NK after all that eye fucking between them for two seasons, I've made peace with Arya killing him. She was a trained assassin after all. Would Arya have even been there if she hadn't gone home to Jon?

[quote]Why was he resurrected then? Why? To kill Dany?

Yes. This exactly. He took care of both threats - ice and fire. I don't know why this is so hard for people to figure out.

[quote]Rogen also said that unlike the GoT showrunners, he's not embarrassed to show his face (he's the showrunner of "Preacher")

I was unaware that Preacher received a humongous backlash for their last season and that people were making death threats against him for it. You should have seen some of the vitriol for those two they were pouring out on reddit.

by Anonymousreply 364July 22, 2019 9:51 PM

GOT´s ending was a mess, totally disappointing. It´s sad seeing NIkolaj Coster, who has fought so hard to play his character as he was on books, say now on the San Diego Comic Con that the ending was perfect and he loved it. A man that has said on interviews that he fought D & D whenever he got the scripts after they passed the books, because they made no sense at all, and had to listen to them saying that he was just an actor and he should do what they asked him to do. Really sad.

by Anonymousreply 365July 22, 2019 10:23 PM

Nikolaj talks through his butt. I wouldn't trust anything he has to say about Jaime's ending or the show's finale. He clearly is being very political kissing up to the show runners like that and HBO. He obviously doesn't want to alienate them for fear of hurting his future job prospects with them should they happen.

by Anonymousreply 366July 23, 2019 12:38 AM

Regarding Jon killing Dany, I think the major issue is that they merged his character with Book Aegon, and it just didn’t work. In the books, I fully expect Cersei, who’ll be ruling through Tommen, to be deposed by Aegon and then for HIM to be the antagonist that Dany faces down and maybe considers marriage with. He’s the one who Varys has groomed to rule there, even though he’s probably only a Targ bastard.

They also fucked up when they were half-arsed about absorbing Edric Storm’s (another one of King Robert’s bastards who survives) arc into Gendry’s. It made zero sense that a blacksmith who can’t even read would be made Lord of Storm’s End, whereas Edric, a well-educated, illegitimate son who was recognised by his father because his mother was highborn, becoming legitimised and taking the Baratheon seat of power makes total sense.

It’s laughable when people say that the books will end in the same way. They can’t possibly. The show was essentially fan fiction.

by Anonymousreply 367July 23, 2019 1:15 AM

The actor who played Bran was adorable at the beginning of the show but got uglier as he aged, maybe that's why his storyline was minimal?

by Anonymousreply 368July 23, 2019 8:23 AM

R364 you make some good points about Jon & Arya. R359 & R360 I agree! Well said.

I honestly might have put up with Dany going crazy, except, as I begin to re watch earlier seasons, Dany could be ruthless but she was never wantonly bloodthirsty. She hated seeing innocent bystanders, common folk being abused and mistreated. When the peasant came to her after her dragon burned his child to a crisp, she locked up the two dragons. So, IMO, the contrast, the inconsistency was too great.

Even her attack on the loot train after the Lannister Army took High Garden was rational. Her army attacked their army. She asked the Tarleys to surrender. Randyll not only refused, he was arrogant and insulting to his last breath. Now contrast Dany with the person who was crazy to the end: Cersei.

Cersei was totally consistent. She stood in that window, in denial even as she watched what was happening. Even as Qyburn confirmed "Your fleet is gone. Euron has been defeated. etc." Varys once said Littlefinger would let everything burn if he could be king of the ashes. But he was describing Cersei. Crazy. Her entire character arc was really dark.

Remember the Mountain "practicing" before his duel with Oberon Martell, disemboweling men, slaughtering them for the fun of it, how she daintily stepped over the human intestines, and pools of blood to ask him to be her champion? She was unfazed. And she seemed to spend a lot of spare time watching Qyburn resurrect the Mountain and turn him into a zombie.

Cersei got off on brutality, cruelty. She defined blood lust. Complete lunatic, and the more power she had the worse she was. Disconnected to reality. Dany's arc didn't sufficiently demonstrate a comparable madness, not enough to justify her burning down the entire King's Landing slaughtering thousands of innocents. So IMO, Benioff and Weiss killing Missandei, and having Dany go on a rampage was not sufficiently convincing.

Jon killing Dany only makes sense in their version. It was weak, and convenient. If they had allowed the story to end with Drogon flying away with Dany's body they would have done themselves a small favor, because ending it with Grey Worm arresting Jon, Tyrion as toastmaster, and Bran of all people becoming King, and Bronn surviving, was total bullshit.

It was insulting to the fans. It completely, IMO ignored the character arc, and cutting the words in Jon's mouth didn't make it right. Yeah, he kept saying "I don't want it" but Jon always did what was required. He'd have accepted leadership.I just hated it, and it honestly takes the fun out of re- watching the series. I felt like something was stolen, I felt betrayed.

by Anonymousreply 369July 23, 2019 1:08 PM

I meant "Disconnected FROM reality..."

by Anonymousreply 370July 23, 2019 2:42 PM

I will also add one more thing. The Dany we came to know would have reacted differently to Missandei's murder. She would have focused her anger at Cersei. And of course Tyrion, who really didn't want to see his brother and sister harmed, would have been placed in a tough spot. She should have turned to Tyreion and said, "I spared your brother, but I will not spare your sister. If you're really concerned about casualties, and millions dying, then show me how to get into the Red Keep and bring Cersei to justice..." Tyrion knew how to get into the Keep. He could have showed her the way. OR: When they were standing outside the walls, parleying with Cersei, once she killed Missandei, Dany could have simply attacked with Drogon, and ended it. The thing I found very weak about the whole sequence from the moment Euron attacked Dany's fleet, was how the hell he knew how important Missandei was. THey never sufficiently explained that.

by Anonymousreply 371July 23, 2019 2:49 PM

R369 I was never a huge Dany fan, but they really did mess up her arc. There was no nuance in the end. Her best friend was executed, she heard some bells and that apparently made her go mad. There should have been some realisation on her part that Westeros was never her home, and that she could never rule with dragons in such a densely populated capital. They literally had her meet Cersei in the Dragon Pit and pick up the bones of her ancestors’ dragons, and still it didn’t click.

It’s piss poor writing when you rely on nearly all of your characters have to be moronic so you can push the narrative forward. Both Tyrion and Varys lost a good 20 IQ points as soon as D&D ran out of book material.

by Anonymousreply 372July 23, 2019 2:53 PM

I was really pissed at the way they characterized Varys. He actually had no lines. In Episode 3, The Long Night, he had like, two lines and sat there doing nothing.

by Anonymousreply 373July 23, 2019 2:56 PM

"So IMO, Benioff and Weiss killing Missandei, and having Dany go on a rampage was not sufficiently convincing."

Completely agree. I really look forward to the expose that will be coming in a year's time that discusses what went wrong with GoT's final season, replete with quotes from anonymous sources--unnamed actors and crew members who worked on the show. You know it's coming. I think it'll be Vanity Fair that will get this exclusive.

by Anonymousreply 374July 23, 2019 4:25 PM

R374, I don't think the crew will have too much to say that is negative. But I'm sure the actors will. I think Conleth Heath and Emilia Clarke in particular. They will be critical. Emilia already was. Maybe NCW, but I doubt it. He probably just wants to move on. But really, guys like Peter Dinklage, Aidan Quinn, Jerome Flynn, Rory McCann, etc. and people like Maisie Williams and Sophie Williams will do nothing but praise the series. Even though Dinklage was already famous and respected, he has openly praised the show for giving him the role of a lifetime, and after all, in the series Tyrion survived and thrived. Same for Madden and Joe Dempsie. And Rory McCann. But Ian Glenn, Nathalie Emanuel, and Lena Heady may have some choice words.

by Anonymousreply 375July 23, 2019 4:35 PM

A lot of the suits and probably Benioff andWeiss will say no one cares. It's over. But one of the joys of past seasons was being able to watch it repeatedly and find new things, clues, etc. and speculate. Now we can't even do that because of the shit ending. Watching Arya from Season One to the end was the only thing that made sense. And Theon.

by Anonymousreply 376July 23, 2019 6:02 PM

Apparently folks haven't watched the comic con panel. The seven cast members present were pretty unified on how silly they thought the tearing and rendering of garments over the finish was. They pretty much said it was disrespectful to all the talent and work involved to demand a reshoot.

Conleth Hill finished the panel with a lovely heart felt tribute pointing out that Belfast was only 10 years into a peace process when the show started and how unifying and positive the project turned out be for Belfast and it's citizens. He loves his hometown and is very grateful.

by Anonymousreply 377July 23, 2019 6:20 PM

R377, no one to my knowledge is criticizing the cast & crew, or the tremendous boost GoT gave to Belfast. . I think most people have been very supportive and respectful of their work. The whole re-shoot petition thing was silly. But I absolutely, 100% agree with those who focus criticism on Benioff, Weiss and maybe even GRRM. Because that last season, from a purely storytelling point of view, and even from a character development point of view was pure shit. I thought Sapochnik and the other directors were excellent. The Special effects were outstanding. Etc.etc.etc. No. the blame rest solely with the writers.

by Anonymousreply 378July 23, 2019 6:44 PM

I'll add one more point: I blame Benioff and Weiss more than MArtin. Because the screen version is different. And even if they would have arrived at largely the same place, (and there's no guarantees of that) the TV show could have done a much better job. Also, I know of many movies and TV shows that have deviated substantially from the written version over the years. There is nothing that said D&D had to absolutely to what GRRM was going to do.

by Anonymousreply 379July 23, 2019 6:47 PM

Martin didn't help by not finishing the books.

by Anonymousreply 380July 23, 2019 6:54 PM

But many of the complaints are about writing decisions that D&D made over the course of the show concerning storylines that D&D knew to be wasteful and unnecessary, i.e. shaggy dog stories.

Like Arianne Martel, Edric Storm and Aegon (young Griff). None of those stories have endings that involved the main storyline. They are narrative dead ends. Yikes look at Rickon, his was even made to include the huge hint that it was a shaggy dog story. Rob Stark was the earliest shaggy dog story and D&D knew you could do it once but 3 or 4 was just too much. So those characters had to go. That's the biggest fault of Martin's work: too many tangential journeys. It's why he can't finish the books. But there are people moaning and crying about the loss of Young Griff.

D&D had to condense this, the actors weren't getting any younger and they were getting mighty expensive and some who were crucial to the endgame were getting itchy. It had to wrap up.

by Anonymousreply 381July 23, 2019 8:20 PM

I have no problem with the wrapping up R381 but D&D did a whole media tour of "we only need 2 more shortened seasons"

THEY WERE WRONG.

by Anonymousreply 382July 23, 2019 8:23 PM

Regarding Danerys: A "Mad Queen" storyline could have been awesome, but they made a complete botch of it. I mean even her burning King's Landing could have been done better and on the same schedule and budget, she should have flown straight to the Red Keep, looked Cersei in the eye and yelled "Dracarys" loud enough for the bitch to hear, burned the palace... and not stop. She looks down into the streets and sees red-cloaks still fighting, she sees people yelling at her, and she interpret what she sees as resistance... and she's always been a military leader who takes the most direct path to her goals. She's not cruel or bloodthirsty, just extremely goal-focused. And if she thought she could win the final battle of her campaign by frying the neighborhood around the Red Keep, she'd do it if she thought it was necessary, and it'd be in character.

Regarding Prince Aegon or Young Griff... I think the guy above has overstated his importance. I can't imagine his invasion went any better than Perkin Warbeck's, not if he's invading during the reign of King Tommen. As far as the rest of the kingdom knows Tommen is backed by the wealth and power of the united Tyrells and Lannisters, and they're not going to mess with THAT, Sparrows or no Sparrows! If he'd brought three dragons with him it'd be different, of course, not that believable political concerns would stop GRRM from giving him a big story just to mess with people's minds.

by Anonymousreply 383July 23, 2019 10:39 PM

I read the books. And I have to say. The first three books were great. I Really enjoyed them. But book four wandered all over the place, and by book five I was exhausted, and skimmed and skipped. Hard to get through it. So I'm not convinced the series suffered from the books not being finished. I just think at some point Benioff and Weiss were victims of their own success and their arrogance. And eventually they lost interest and passion for the story. The novelty had worn off.

by Anonymousreply 384July 24, 2019 3:49 PM

I also think they should have definitely had more episodes. It suffered greatly from the shortened, rushed seasons.

by Anonymousreply 385July 24, 2019 3:50 PM

Are they EVER going to answer the criticism viewers and media had about Season 8? Are they EVER going to defend themselves? What arrogant cowards.

by Anonymousreply 386July 24, 2019 4:14 PM

Take the criticism, address it, and move on. The more they hide from it, the more the obsessive fans will want to unload on them.

by Anonymousreply 387July 24, 2019 5:07 PM

It is incredibly cowardly how they have just hidden out. Who does that? Just do a damn interview, I expect them just to give a standard "we put our heart into it and I'm sorry if it didn't please everybody", but the fact that they have just hidden out is absurd.

by Anonymousreply 388July 24, 2019 5:14 PM

I predict an "honest interview" with D&D coming up in EW, but really an obnoxious puff piece written by their chief propagandist James Hibberd.

by Anonymousreply 389July 24, 2019 7:20 PM

It would be difficult to do an open and honest interview about the ending. They are still bound by GRRM's publishers non disclosure agreements. Any interview would cross those lines.

by Anonymousreply 390July 24, 2019 7:33 PM

Any DL Hollywood insiders know what is the industry's general opinion about Benioff specifically?

His dad is one of the most powerful financiers / bankers in the world (former COO of Goldman Sachs, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank, Dubya Bush's economic advisor, etc). His cousin is a tech billionaire on the West Coast. Benioff reportedly grew up in Manhattan, next to the UN building, with his family later living on 5th Avenue.

Benioff keeps getting very high-profile gigs & franchises (X-Man Origins: Wolverine, Troy with Brad Pitt). Despite most of his original Hollywood screenwriting being quite pedestrian, boiler-plate and even amateur-ish. E.g. Troy, which he co-wrote, had a very silly ending: Paris (who started the whole Trojan war mess and destroys his own nation) survives and lives 'happily ever after' with Helen.

by Anonymousreply 391July 24, 2019 7:43 PM

And I say co-wrote Troy, because Benioff only loosely adapted it from Homer's epic poem. Unlike Benioff, Homer justifiably killed off Paris, because he was a selfish, weak coward who recklessly condemned his nation to destruction.

by Anonymousreply 392July 24, 2019 7:48 PM

I watched Troy and there were a few deviations from the Homeric text that infuriated me:

Menelau did not die. He survived and Helen went home with him after it was over.

Paris was killed by Philocthetes, another Greek warrior fighting for Agamemnon. Paris did not survive the Trojan War.

Patroclus was not Achilles younger cousin. He was his lover. Achilles was gay. And Briseis was a spoil of war not Achilles's great love. I enjoyed the movie. But it was not a very accurate rendering of the story.

by Anonymousreply 393July 24, 2019 8:12 PM

[quote] The whole re-shoot petition thing was silly.

It was not silly at all, R378. It was a request, not an order. AFAIK, the real point was to convey to HBO Corp. that many customers / viewers consider the writing to be sub-par in the last season especially - and to put a number to that sentiment.

As for the "re-shoot" - the actual term used in the petition was "remake". It didn't actually specify that it had to be even the same actors or director. Hollywood does remakes all the time, especially nowadays. I guarantee you that there WILL be a remake in 5-10 years' time, when Hollywood runs out of creative ideas and wants to use nostalgia for profit.

Remaking the whole series would be unnecessary and too long. So they can simply re-cast and remake the last season, developing the plot into something more convincing & coherent - and stretch it out, as a "sequel series", into 2-3 additional seasons.

I guarantee there will be an audience for that, as (more or less) the entire planet watched GoT and would look forward to better-scripted narrative development & closure.

by Anonymousreply 394July 24, 2019 8:13 PM

Changing Patroclus to Achilles cousin to try to get rid of any homoerotic nature of their relationship was unforgivable.

Don't have to make them lovers, but can just keep it open ended and that they are "close".

by Anonymousreply 395July 24, 2019 8:16 PM

Look. All they needed to do was allow a few more episodes to the final season to allow it to breathe and end properly. Although I had to just get up and go out for a walk after Jon gets "arrested" by Grey Worm, Bran is King, and Jon has to go to the Wall. Such absolute bullshit. They could have ended it with Drogon taking DeadDany away and Jon just sort of standing there. The. End.

by Anonymousreply 396July 24, 2019 8:21 PM

While the path to get him there is iffy at best, Jon ending up Beyond the Wall was totally fine for me. To me, he was always as close to happy as Jon Snow ever gets with the wildlings.

by Anonymousreply 397July 24, 2019 9:49 PM

R396, that was the funniest part to me. Tyrion's superficial plan was to get Snow to assassinate Daenerys. But nobody even discussed exterminating the gigantic, fire-breathing flying animal (i.e. a living Nuke), which might go uncontrollably ape-shit on Westeros if it sees its 'mother' killed - and simply barbecue all the remaining survivors.

It's like killing a Bond villain and not even trying to de-activate or counter the bigger threat - the ticking, explosive bomb.

by Anonymousreply 398July 24, 2019 10:00 PM

I agree, R397, for years I've been saying that if Jon didn't have a huge sense of duty, he'd run off to live with the wildlings and find a nice spearwife to bear him children and boss him around. Jon ending up with the wildlings is one of three believable endings for him, the other two being the miserable king of Westeros, or ending up dead.

Still, the way series handled Jon's exile was ridiculous! It would have been better to have Gray Worm kill him, instead of going totally out of character and peacefully arresting him, and then have some character say something like "Do you realize he saved the world from the fire AND the ice?". And if they'd done that, they'd have had a few minutes to spare to settle whether Bran was a real king who actually ruled and was accepted as a ruler, a placeholder who was considered to be crazy by the people with real power, or an omniscient god-king who was going to reign for a thousand years.

by Anonymousreply 399July 24, 2019 10:00 PM

[quote] a few deviations from the Homeric text that infuriated me … Menelau did not die. He survived and Helen went home with him after it was over.

Indeed, R393. Off-topic tangent: In Benioff’s script, Helen laments that she was brought over to Sparta as a ‘wifey’ for Menelaus, and that she never felt good in Sparta as it wasn’t her “home”. This revision was done to make Paris (a cowardly weakling) into some kind of silly ‘great hero’ for ‘rescuing’ her from Sparta.

But in Homer’s actual poem - she was the DAUGHTER of the Spartan Monarchs. She was Spartan and the Heiress to the throne. It WAS her home. Menelaus was just one from a whole plethora of suitors (Odysseus, etc) who came from all across Ancient Greece to beg for her hand. All the suitors quarrelled and fought between each other, until they resolved the conflict by all swearing an Oath of Solidarity: that whoever is lucky enough to be chosen (that turned out to be Menealus) would be defended by the other Greek generals from harm.

THAT is why, when Helen was whisked away by Paris (along with a heap of stolen Spartan gold, to add insult to injury), Menelaus hurriedly ran after her. Because HELEN was the heiress and key-link to the Spartan throne. Without her, his claim to the throne was very wobbly (because he wasn’t the direct-blood heir). It was a complex political fiasco, not just some silly love-triangle melodrama.

And THAT is why all the Greek kingdoms (ruled by the other suitors, who swore that old oath to help Menelaus) ran after that silly wench, across the entire Aegean Sea. Many didn’t even want to be there (e.g. Odysseus), but they were dragged into it because of their Oath.

by Anonymousreply 400July 24, 2019 10:10 PM

[quote] Changing Patroclus to Achilles cousin to try to get rid of any homoerotic nature of their relationship was unforgivable.

R393, R395, this part - not quite. Achilles and Patroclus had complex ancestral lineage (Homer’s text amalgamates a collection of myths), but in most Ancient sources they WERE blood relatives, from the same extended family. Based on their family tree, Achilles’ dad and Patroclus were 2nd cousins. So for Achilles, Patroclus was indeed a 1st COUSIN once-removed.

But what the film did portray incorrectly is that Patroclus was in most sources (even in Homer’s text, and in the lineage below) referred to as OLDER than Achilles. In Homer’s Iliad, Patroclus’ dad expressly supports his son as the male heir of the family, saying that “Achilles might be higher-born than you [because Achilles had the more distinguished family-branch], but you are the OLDER”.

And this is mirrored in ancient art as well. See the depiction on the 500 BC vase below: Achilles is depicted as a younger, beardless youth, tending to the older, bearded Patroclus’ wound.

As for them screwing each other - they migh have. It wasn’t uncommon in Ancient Greece for blood relative to fuck. But Homer makes no express mention of that - so this part I can’t actually blame on Benioff. If Benioff did insert that - it would be more fanfiction / speculation on his part.

Plus, the problem then would be that Benioff would likely have have to show Brad Pitt (Achilles) being fucked as a BOTTOM by an older actor (Patroclus). Because, from what we know, Ancient Greeks were actually (surprisingly) homophobic bastards. They often accepted so-called Pederasty: a fully-matured man (i.e. a man old enough to naturally grow a beard) screwing a younger, beardless teenager in his early to late teens). But, ironically, they did NOT generally accept 2 adult (bearded) man fucking. A fully-grown, adult man who allowed himself to be penetrated by anyone was TABOO and the subject of isolating ridicule. They seemed to have very strict rules: only young teen males, wenches and animals were for fucking.

So by the time Homer’s poem starts (final years of the war), even if Patroclus screwed his relative, Achilles, before (when Achilles was a beardless teen), they’d be socially expected to stop as soon as Achilles matured into a full adult, and both get a younger teen boy or female to screw instead. And that’s why Achilles claimed Briseis.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 401July 24, 2019 10:19 PM

[quote]I honestly might have put up with Dany going crazy, except, as I begin to re watch earlier seasons, Dany could be ruthless but she was never wantonly bloodthirsty. She hated seeing innocent bystanders, common folk being abused and mistreated. When the peasant came to her after her dragon burned his child to a crisp, she locked up the two dragons. So, IMO, the contrast, the inconsistency was too great.

I don't think Dany was crazy at all. Do people call Hitler and Stalin crazy? She made a choice in service to attaining power. She wasn't so much bloodthirsty as she was power hungry. The events you were describing were years ago and while Dany started out sympathetic to the people, she changes as she gets closer to the Iron Throne. That's the whole point. Sit astride a dragon and torch a fleet or an army with one word and of course you're going to develop a Messianic complex. The power warped her. But by the time she had engaged Cersei in war, she was experiencing all kinds of frustrating setbacks. And after the battle of WF she went through some HUGE losses - all in service to a bunch of ungrateful Northerners - so each confrontation just made her that much more committed to taking the IT. There had to be SOMETHING at the end of all that misery to make it worth it. Think back on S7 and her speech to Jon at their first meeting. Listen to her rattle off all of the things she suffered so she could get to where she was. And she finally gets THIS close, the city is right there, and she's had it up to HERE with her incompetent/duplicitous Hand, with people betraying her, with a populace that don't adore her or shout Myhsa while hoisting her atop their shoulders. She said it - she has no love there. So she decided to do what she's done in the past - get rid of the problem and start fresh. Dany chose a cleansing.

I just rewatched S7 and S8 in one continuous binge and honestly, it was immensely enjoyable. Really, those final episodes were quite an achievement when you think about the fact that this was a television show. It looked incredible. I can't really speak to the books because I'm only in the third one and I basically read all of Jon's chapters first (Martin's prose just doesn't hold that much appeal for me) BUT, viewing the last two seasons as a single season made it so much more coherent and consistent. Aside from the aforementioned S7 scene, there was a solid thru-line in the buildup to Dany as a dictator. Even in S8, they spend an entire episode before The Bells having Varys and Tyrion try and convince her not to burn innocents and she was pretty dead set on it. She only rescinds when Tyrion makes a final plea for their surrender. And then he went and set his brother free. Dany was pretty much through with the lot of them. One thing that has been very clear and consistent with Dany's character is that she likes to intimidate the fuck out of people. We've seen this from S2 on. She developed a taste for it.

For Jon, he was lost in the fallacy of sunk costs. Once they got to WF, he starts to notice the red flags pretty early, but he feels a responsibility for her. He had to go all in and just commit to his decision to bend the knee. JON was the one who brought her to Eastwatch where she lost a dragon, and the losses just kept coming. When Jon confesses to her that he's Aegon Targaryen, the first thing she's concerned with is not that she was fucking her nephew, but that he has a better claim than her. You see Jon do a wtf before they're called to battle. When she begs him to keep it a secret, he's trying to convince her that he will support her no matter what because Jon will do the honorable thing and stick by her. It's not just that he loves her, he feels incredible guilt. "You are my Queen" became a mantra for him, in essence, because the more he said it, the more he was hoping she would revert back to the woman who swooped down on a dragon beyond the Wll to save him. What were his options after that? Kick her to the curb? That's not Jon.

by Anonymousreply 402July 24, 2019 10:22 PM

(cont) - I was upset the first time I watched it because I hate seeing good men get fucked over and it incensed me that Jon has to kill the woman he loved and then he is punished for it while everyone else gets to have a happy life. But upon the rewatch, I liked the tragedy of it all. Truly "bittersweet". I was so pissed at Tyrion and the Stark kids, but now I see their end differently. I teared up when they say goodbye to Jon at the dock. It was really heartfelt. I'm all cool with the Starks. They love their brother and tried to protect him. Jon sacrificed himself twice for the cause. The fact that the hero didn't win at the end isn't lost on me.

by Anonymousreply 403July 24, 2019 10:25 PM

[Quote]. Really, those final episodes were quite an achievement when you think about the fact that this was a television show. It looked incredible.

It says so much that this is the first thing you took away from those final 2 seasons. Yes Seasons 7 and 8 do look incredible, the money and work that went into making them is obvious.

If only the writing were up to the same standard.

by Anonymousreply 404July 24, 2019 10:32 PM

Exactly R404. I don't think anybody faults the technical merits or the acting of the final episodes. Those scripts though...

by Anonymousreply 405July 24, 2019 11:00 PM

There's a kind of persistent fallacy in these discussions that Dany sacrificed soooo much to save the North. Her dragon!!! But really she was going to have to face the Night King eventually. He was going to kill everyone in Westeros including her, her armies and probably her dragons. So she was always acting in her self interest, even when she answered the call.

by Anonymousreply 406July 24, 2019 11:03 PM

[quote] she was power hungry

Was she, R401? It’s impossible to tell, because she was just re-written as brain-lobotomised and moronically inconsistent in S8. GoT (modeled on Medieval conflict), is like a game of chess. If she were really “power-hungry”, she’d have [bold]2 main priorities[/bold]: get rid of the ONLY 2 people standing between her and the Iron Throne: Cersei and Snow.

But what did Benioff & Weiss write instead? (1) Daenerys did NOT make sure Cersei was even dead. While Daenerys was wasting her time ‘fire-mowing the lawn’ somewhere on the city's periphery and moronically chasing after inconsequential cow-farmers & cheesemongers, Cersei could have easily escaped :). In fact, she almost did. NOBODY even made sure that Cersei was dead (apart from Tyrion accidentally).

(2) Then we come to Snow. He was an even bigger obstacle for Daenerys than Cersei because he technically had the biggest blood claim to the Throne. A “power-hungry” usurper would kill him, or at least lock him up in some faraway dungeon, to get this rival out of the public spotlight. But what did B&W write? Oh, yes - she graciously offered him to join her (as co-ruler or main general). How lovely. Wasn’t she mercilessly barbecuing newborns just a few hours before? Then why was Snow’s head even still attached to his neck? Or did she have a cigarette break in-between and calm down :). And wasn’t she previously whining that he was ‘too popular’? Then why the heck give him more power and public spotlight as your right-hand?

The only conclusion is that Daenerys was re-written as a bipolar imbecile, who can’t make up her mind about what the heck she even wants. And that’s not something you want for an important character in a series finale. She screeches that she wants Cersei dead… and then doesn’t even bother killing her directly or checking if she’s dead. She wails that Snow is ’stealing her thunder’ in the spotlight… and then elevates him to a higher position in her army. Was that what the writers were aiming for? Daenerys as Bipolar Idiot?

As the saying goes, characters can only be as intelligent as their writers. Unfortunately for Daenerys, she was written with B&W's 'level of intelligence' (or rather lack thereof).

by Anonymousreply 407July 25, 2019 1:08 AM

I'm excited to see what Bryan Cogman does next.

by Anonymousreply 408July 25, 2019 1:16 AM

[quote] with a populace that don't adore her or shout Myhsa while hoisting her atop their shoulders. She said it - she has no love there. So she decided to do what she's done in the past - get rid of the problem and start fresh. Dany chose a cleansing.

When has that albino Daenerys “done this in the past”, R401? When did she “start afresh”? Benioff & Weiss’ “boohoo, they don’t love me” idea is just childish, inconsistent screenwriting.

The Dothraki did not immediately “love” her either. She got rid of ONLY their murderous Leaders, and the tribes obediently fell to their knees. That was the winning strategy - not “cleansing” the Dothraki.

The Unsullied did not immediately “love” her. They only showed loyalty when she purchased them from their Leaders.

The city of Mereen did not immediately “love” her. As always, she had to get rid of their [italic]leaders[/italic]. The local people only embraced her when their previous LEADERS were gone.

So why on earth would she expect King’s Landing to “instantly love her” (a city where most people didn’t even fully know who the heck this foreign-raised girl was, and [bold]who’ve never even SEEN her in their lives[/bold]). Did Daenerys even SHOW HER FACE to the “populace” of KL? No, they did not even get a chance to see what she looked like, never mind hear her speak. How can you “love” someone YOU’VE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD.

[italic]All[/italic] she had to do was execute the leaders (Cersei and her ‘Captain Jack Sparrow’ King) and turn up on her Dragon - and all the civilian pig-farmers & manure-herders in King’s Landing (who’ve never seen a live dragon before) would immediatelly drop down and kiss her feet. Her whole hissy-fit was POINTLESS. The “populace” of KL was not particularly fond of Cersei, they (Southerners) also did not fully know who the heck Jon Snow was (he never visited the capital before in his life), so they would have accepted Albino Daenerys as Queen as long as she got rid of Cersei.

But B&W’s script throws all attempts at logic out the window.

by Anonymousreply 409July 25, 2019 1:16 AM

FACTS

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 410July 25, 2019 1:30 AM

Thanks r407 and r409. I can't even speaspeak about GOT without being angry at the lack of care and attention the script had. They really seem to be appealing to the lowest common denominator.

What they did was disrespectful, because people set aside time in their lives to commit to the show that made it a hit, to make them and HBI money.

by Anonymousreply 411July 25, 2019 1:33 AM

“Do people call Hitler and Stalin crazy?”

Uhhh...YES!

by Anonymousreply 412July 25, 2019 3:43 AM

[quote] a solid thru-line in the buildup to Dany as a dictator.

R401, “Dictator” simply means Autocratic Ruler. GoT is a quasi-Medieval, Feudalist world. They don’t have “Democracy” or even “Constitutional Monarchy” there - they precisely have “Autocratic / Absolute Monarchy”. What do you think “Absolute Monarchs” are? (Edward III, Henry VIII, the Romanoffs, etc). They’re DICTATORS, by definition. They “dictate” everything - everyone else obeys (i.e. their feudal vassals and peasants).

Daenerys did not have “buildup as dictator” - she was a (perfectly standard for her time and place) autocratic leader from the beginning and that never varied. Just like Bobby Baratheon was a dictator too. She was expected, by her own subjects, to be a Monocrat and she was one (e.g. the people of Mereen never asked her for a Parliament). She never had a separate body (independent Legislature or independent Judiciary) that could veto her order. She had advisors, like all Absolute Monarchs in history, but their advice was not mandatory or binding.

Daenerys said she was going to “break the wheel” - but she never said she’d create a Constitutional Monarchy or a Democratic Republic. She likely simply implied putting an end to the constant civil wars and disastrously chaotic, ‘revolving-door’ change of power (like the War of the Roses). Because after deposing her father, the other Houses, instead of creating prosperity, were creating pure chaos in the land: the Lannisters, Starks and Baratheons, etc were all at each other’s throats. So much so, that there were 5 (!) changes of Monarch in just a decade or so: Aerys II, Bobby, Joffrey, Tommen, Cersei, with no end in sight. The (real) Middle Ages were called ‘the Dark Ages’ precisely because it was a time of high instability, with perpetual civil wars over the throne ravaging the country. But once a strong enough (still autocratic) dynasty came to power - there was finally relative stability. It seems this is what Daenerys was going for and what was expected of her.

by Anonymousreply 413July 25, 2019 4:02 AM

[quote] they spend an entire episode before The Bells having Varys and Tyrion try and convince her not to burn innocents and she was pretty dead set on it. She only rescinds when Tyrion makes a final plea for their surrender.

This is what I found most funny, R401. GoT started as a Middle Ages-inspired saga - with very unenlightened (realistic) Medieval morals. Just before the events in GoT S1 open, during Robert’s Rebellion, King’s Landing is SACKED by the Lannister army. In Season 3, Jorah Mormont recounts those events to Daenerys: [italic]“I was in King's Landing after the sack, Khaleesi. Do you know what I saw? BUTCHERY. BABIES, children, old men. More women raped than you can count.”[/italic] So this is how Tywin Lannister got control of King’s Landing and how Bobby Baratheon became King of Westeros. But did anyone in Westeros even CARE much back then that “babies” were “butchered” in King’s Landing? Nope :). No one punished Tywin, no one punished Bobby B. for ignoring Tywin’s mass murder and even rewarding him by making him his 2nd-in-command of the country. Even the ‘honourable’ Ned Stark maintained a ‘buddy’ friendship with Bobby B (who got on the Irone Throne by allowing the slaughter of “babies”). NO ONE assasinated Tywin or Bobby B for that crime. No one even called Tywin and Bobby “mad” for what they’ve done.

So why the heck does Tyrion and Varys suddenly pearl-clutch in S8? “Oh, but will anyone think of the children!” :). It’s like Benioff & Weiss are writing 2 different worlds / shows.

Btw, during the 2nd sack of King’s Landing, the Northern troops (!) also merrily joing in the carnage and rape of civilians, even disobeying Snow’s orders (for some bizarre, inexpicable reason). Were any of them punished for mass murder & rape of civilians? Were the Northern troops called “mad”? No one in Westeros seems to care :).

And why the heck does Tyrion suddenly engage in so much hand-wringing about saving his hateful sister (who condemned him to death) or the city that betrayed him & didn't stand up for him? The last time he was in King’s Landing - he was put on trial to be potentially executed, and he in turn readily called for the city to be destroyed:

[italic]“I saved you. I saved you and all your WORTHLESS lives. I should have let Stannis KILL YOU ALL … I wish I had enough POISON for the whole pack of you. I would gladly give my life to watch you all SWALLOW it.”[/italic]

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 414July 25, 2019 4:37 AM

^Oops, meant above posts as replies to R402, not R401.

by Anonymousreply 415July 25, 2019 4:40 AM

R414 your arguments are solid, your catalogue impressive.I'd only add Cersei blowing up the Sept with all those people in it.Life seemed to roll right past that too.

by Anonymousreply 416July 25, 2019 10:47 AM

Off-topic, but the sack of King’s Landing (twice in successive order) reminds me of the sack of Caen in British Medieval history.

Caën was a very unfortunate French city with the worst luck (it got sacked by the English twice: by Edward III in 1346 during the “100 Years’ War”, and then again by Henry V in 1417.)

[quote] 1346: “The victorious English began a furious sack of the [French] town, burning most of it to the ground, seizing thousands of livres (pounds) worth of valuables, as well as killing approximately half the town's population; the remainder fled into the countryside, pursued by cavalry. There was also an orgy of drunken rape; English knights are recorded as having saved some young women, either from being raped, or from being killed afterwards. The sack of the city continued for 5 days.”

Medieval warfare did not have our modern (comparatively more humane) Geneva Convention. But there were some very general rules (which GoT seemed to parallel in Daenerys' last chat with Cersei): according to the laws of Medieval warfare, the attacking king was [italic]obliged[/italic] to [italic]first[/italic] offer the city an opportunity to surrender (BEFORE the battle commences). But if the city’s leader refused and counter-attacked - then all bets were off :). The besieging army was then ‘legitimately’ allowed to do whatever the heck it wanted - kill everyone or show partial mercy, its hands were completely untied by the counter-attack.

And the taken city then flying the white surrender flag AFTER they were already conquered would be ridiculously too late - because obviously they would surrender at the end anyway, if their counter-attack failed and they blew the battle. (But by launching the counter-attack and trying to kill the besieging soldiers, the city would piss off the besieging army, who’d slaughter them in response). Well, both times the French city of Caen refused the advance offer to surrender (similar to KL) - and got half of its inhabitants wiped out due to that strategy mistake:

[quote] 1417: “Henry V issued a final challenge to the French, calling upon Charles VI in the name of the God ‘in whose hands are the rights of kings and princes’ to give him ‘in fact and in reality’ the Crown and kingdom of France, his ‘rightful inheritance which had so long been unjustly withheld’ [sounds like Daenerys, doesn’t it?]. This was not mere bravado but the formal and legal requirement of the laws of war: BEFORE hostilities began in earnest, the enemy had to be offered one last chance to avoid the spilling of Christian blood. And since they had failed to respond to that request, the blame for the consequences would rest squarely on the shoulders of the French. Having duly summoned the town to surrender (an important formality before the attack could take place legitimately) but been refused, Henry V ordered the bombardment to begin [and Caen was then sacked by a pissed-off English army]. [Henry did seem to order his army to spare the females & clergy - but that order was mostly ignored by his brutal, tornado army, and Henry didn't seem to lose much sleep over it.]

[quote] “Caen was unfortunate to have suffered the same fate and its consequences before, when Edward III sacked the town in 1346. According to the laws of war, the town’s refusal to capitulate meant that its inhabitants and their property were at the mercy of its attackers. And very little mercy was shown.”

But unlike Daeneryes’ suddenly pearl-clutching, snowflake advisors, nobody in Medieval England cared that Edward III or Henry V sacked Caen (and other cities). They were never called “Mad” monarchs for doing exactly what they were born, bred & raised to do: establish a strong monarchy, consolidate power, claim the French throne via their bloodline, and unite England & France under one banner, even if it meant killing some of the 'hoi polloi'. In fact, Henry V was even praised in his time, and by Shakespeare (and even now). Go figure.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 417July 25, 2019 12:56 PM

DL fave, Tom Hiddleston, playing Henry V:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 418July 25, 2019 1:03 PM

For some reason I can't stand Branaugh. I like Hiddleston a lot though.

Thanks for the historical perspective. Cersei killing Missandei was an awful move. She was so convinced of her own superior power to deal with the dragons and the armies. And BTW. The Gold Company had only 20,000. Cersei lost a lot of her army when Dany attacked to loot train.

by Anonymousreply 419July 25, 2019 2:40 PM

The thing that really pisses me off as I re watch it, is that the way it ended destroys my ability to enjoy the series in its entirety. Right now,Jon has just returned from Hardhome. I know he is going to die and then be brought back to life by Melisandre. I know he will leave the Nights Watch. I know he will battle almost to the death to regain Winterfell and become King in the North. But I also know that even as his character arc over comes obstacles and progresses, it will all come to shit. OTOH, watching Melisandre meeting Arya for the first time, when she takes Gendry, and holding Aryas face up to look at her, saying, "Brown eyes, Green eyes blue eyes, etc. We'll meet again..." was very cool. Arya was the only character who had a decent arc.

by Anonymousreply 420July 25, 2019 3:01 PM

And don't even get me started about Bran and his 3 eyed raven bullshit. Really. That was the weakest storyline in the series. What utter bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 421July 25, 2019 3:02 PM

Cersei being 18 months pregnant (while not showing) in the final season, guzzling wine (which she had declined in her meeting with Tyrion in Season 7, leading him to conclude she was pregnant) while doing nothing but bang Euron (thankfully offscreen) and stare out her window, was a total waste of a great villain and great actress. Ridiculous how little airtime she got.

by Anonymousreply 422July 25, 2019 4:25 PM

R422 This is what convinces me that Cersei isn’t the main villain that Dany faces in the books: they had no clue what to do with her after she took the throne, which was the peak of her entire arc. They just wanted to keep Lena around.

Come to think of it, they had no idea what to do with any of the Lannisters. They had to get Cersei pregnant with another one of Jaime’s children in S7 so that they could explain him not just upping and leaving her after blowing up the Sept. Then, when they didn’t make her have the miscarriage, they fucked his arc up again by using it as an excuse for him to go back to her. Tyrion managed to become the stupidest person in Westeros, and still somehow ended up in the most powerful political position in Westeros.

I’m 95% convinced that Jaime was originally meant to get Tyrion’s ending, a trial and then becoming Hand, after killing Cersei.

by Anonymousreply 423July 25, 2019 7:25 PM

Cersei found out she was "pregnant" (I'm still not convinced she ever was) well AFTER she blew up the Sept. Jaime staying with her after she blew up the Sept also reinforced what the showrunners wanted to portray him as--Cersei's lapdog.

I don't think Jaime was EVER going to get Tyrion's ending-at least on the show. The book is another matter. I think Jaime was ALWAYS slated to die with Cersei but the circumstances that would impel him back to King's Landing were going to be different.

by Anonymousreply 424July 25, 2019 8:25 PM

I don't know how true this is but according to one rumor, in the original script Bronn was supposed to try and assassinate Sansa (whom Cersei believed was responsible for her miscarriage) and also Brienne. (She was supposed to notice the Lannister sword Brienne was carrying at the dragonpit meeting). That was supposed to sever the ties between the twins and make Jaime want to go back to KL to either kill or reason with Cersei to get her to surrender. The miscarriage was supposed to make Cersei go bonkers. She was always supposed to provoke Dany though. But in the original script, according to this source, Cersei was far more proactive in being bat-shit crazy as opposed to the cipher she was in Season 8.

I believe based on Peter Dinklage being the face/heart of the show, Tyrion was always supposed to be the sole surviving Lannister at the end.

by Anonymousreply 425July 25, 2019 8:34 PM

Some really good thoughts on this thread. More thought seems to go into fan analysis then the S8 writing sessions, goddammit! Anyway, re...

"So why the heck does Tyrion and Varys suddenly pearl-clutch in S8? “Oh, but will anyone think of the children!” :). It’s like Benioff & Weiss are writing 2 different worlds / shows. "

Both Tyrion and Danerys have always been written as an uneasy mix of Medieval and modern sensibilities. It's worked better for Tyrion, who (for the first five or six seasons) consistently came across as someone who was too intelligent for his era; he's the guy who's appalled by brutal warfare and arranged marriages to little girls, it made him the most likeable character in the show and the one it was the easiest to identify with.

Dany's inconsistent mix of Medieval and modern sensibilities has always been a big issue since season 2, one minute she's planning an armed conquest of Westeros because it's her duty to uphold the clan rights under the Medieval belief system, the next she's freeing slaves because she's as appalled by slavery as we are (even though she had slaves as Khaleesi and never freed the Dothraki's slaves once she became their Grand God-Khaleesi). So she's been as inconsistent as hell in her core philosophy, which has made her seem like everything from thoughtless, to hypocritical, to evil, and the fandom's perceptions of her has varied widely as a result - to put it politely.

by Anonymousreply 426July 25, 2019 11:42 PM

Fair point, R426. Though interestingly, there were some Autocrats in history who freed slaves and indentured peasants, while unwaveringly maintaining an Absolute / authoritarian monarchy. The 2 ideas are not necessarily in contradiction. E.g. Tsar Alexander II freed his serfs, but never entertained the idea of changing his ruling model (i.e. from absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchy, with a representative parliament to limit the king's power).

The irony is that 'freeing' slaves is generally only a [italic]half-measure[/italic] - because slaves were often 'freed' (globally) with literally nothing to their name (no land, no private house, no titles, little access to education, no vote, few private possessions, no way to get a loan). So their 'freedom' was often a bit hollow - they were 'free' to join the ranks of the poorest disenfranchised working class, the very bottom of society, and try to make their way up (most didn't and remained poor workers).

Without at least partial democracy (the right to elect their own law-makers) and some kind of financial assistance (a state benefits system for the underprivilged) - ‘freedom’ was ironically even more precarious for many slaves than slavery, and could mean starvation.

And I give credit to Martin for addressing this interesting Catch-22 social conundrum (mirrored in Season 4). Martin must have read Chekhov’s plays (specifically that classic, The Cherry Orchard), because he includes a very similar potent scene: an elderly ‘freed’ slave begs Daenerys to let him go back as an indentured servant to his old masters. Because he literally has no other skills or property to survive: [italic]"The young may rejoice in the new world you have built for them, but for those of us too old to change, there is only fear and squalor."[/italic] Daenerys reluctantly agrees, but under the condition that such arrangements cannot exceed 1 year.

This mirrors real history when many peasant-slaves were ‘freed’, but stayed on working for their old masters’ farms (in practice, almost the same life they had as slaves), because they had literally nowhere else to go, and no money to buy their own private land.

And this can be seen even with the Unsullied - they were ‘freed’ but ‘chose’ to serve Daenerys. Out of gratitude. But also because they likely had few other alternatives. (In the Series Finale, Davos offers to grant them a House, which was ROFL-level funny, but I’m not sure B&W intended it that way :). First of all, they were fully castrated eunuchs, they couldn’t have a family or descendants, or even have a standard sexual marriage. They were also taught only one skill-set - warfare skills. They had no other life skills (blacksmith, farming, pottery, etc). So they had to revert to what they were as slaves - mercenaries for a client - and they chose Daenerys, as she was exactly looking for an army at that time.

TL;DR: Autocrats can be anti-slavery. Because, in the absence of democracy, the abolition of slavery does not necessarily change much for the ‘freed’ slaves.

by Anonymousreply 427July 26, 2019 1:51 AM

Exactly, R427. If you "free" the slaves you're no longer responsible for housing them or feeding them, etc.

by Anonymousreply 428July 26, 2019 2:10 AM

I've read that in Ancient Rome, slaves who were too old to be either useful or salable were turned out onto the streets to beg or starve. Humane and thoughtful slave-owners kept their elderly slaves and gave them a place to live and food to eat, the evil ones "gave them their freedom".

Anyway, back to Danerys being written as a motherfucking inconsistent mix of modern and Medieval sensibilities with the writers making no effort to give her a consistent philosophy: Remember in season six, where she was planning to finally leave Essos to invade Westeros? And instead of appointing a successor to rule Mereen in her absence, she said "The people shall choose their own leaders", and took off? Well what the fuck about the people of Westeros - why don't THEY get to choose their own leaders, instead of suffering an invasion of fire and blood and dragons?

That was just bad writing, thrown in to save spending any time on thinking out how to fix the mess that was Mereen, and to give her a moment of looking sympathetic and modern-thinking. But it does nicely illustrate how inconsistent they could make Danerys's actions, even before the show went totally off the fucking rails and had her burning residential neighborhoods while her real enemy stood out in the open watching the day go by. But they didn't have the nerve to make this pretty girl a consistent autocrat - a benevolent autocrat in peace and a ruthless one in war, and whose belief in the familial system of inheritance was unshakeable. That's what she should have been all along, but they didn't have the nerve, and kept trying to make her softer and more likeable. At least TYrion's oddly modernistic viewpoints worked most of the time, he was such an outsider in his society that one could believe he'd question all the beliefs he was brought up with. But Danerys couldn't, and still invade Westeros.

by Anonymousreply 429July 26, 2019 4:50 AM

R429, for me the problem was that Dany's transition into madness was an expedient. It wasn't authentic. For exactly the reason you state. In Mereen and other places,before she came to Westeros, she showed ruthlessness to her enemies, but she was a compassionate autocrat . That character they created would have never torched King's Landing.

There was nothing stopping Dany from going for the Red Keep on her dragon, torching it and bringing Cersei to justice. In fact a trial/execution for Cersei would have been a terrific ending. If I'd written it, I might have even had Dany die in combat right towards the end, Jon becomes ruler and announces he will only do it temporarily until they can assemble a council and elect a ruler.

There would be no Jaime (dead in Brienne's arms at WF) and no Bronn (dead, no assassination plot. Or for a bit of comic relief, maybe there is a plot for him to kill Jaime and Tyrion, but instead he is seen taking the gold loading it onto a ship and telling the captain to head for Dorne. ) In my version, and Bran would stay at Winterfell where Sansa is Warden of the North, not a queen. Arya would still go find out what's west of Westeros.

by Anonymousreply 430July 26, 2019 11:46 AM

Can someone explain to me about the magic coming with the Dragons? It had something to do with that red comet they saw in one of the earlier seasons? But Bran had magic too. Another loose thread. And in the books all the Starks could warg but in the TV version only Bran had that ability. Rickon seemed to have some kind of sight, but it was never fully explored. I felt bad about his character. He was just an afterthought.

by Anonymousreply 431July 26, 2019 11:56 AM

Read something that Benioff and Weiss are getting money thrown at them and so many offers of work they are simply swamped.

by Anonymousreply 432July 26, 2019 4:48 PM

Does anyone really believe there won't be a GoT movie sequel? GoT has been a HUGE cash cow for HBO. And even though they've publicly said no sequels (ala TV) are in the works, I'm very doubtful that'll be the case for a movie sequel. Not to mention this could be a good way for a filmmaker and writer to redeem/salvage the final season with his/her own take. Does anyone really believe that if say Peter Jackson or someone like that wanted to direct the movie sequel that HBO and Martin wouldn't sign off on it? Does a bear you know what in the woods?

by Anonymousreply 433July 26, 2019 5:02 PM

They don't need sequels.

They have a prequel already filming.

And Peter Jackson wouldn't touch any of this with a...

by Anonymousreply 434July 26, 2019 5:12 PM

After the birth of dragons, magic in the world got stronger. Melisandre noticed her powers increase, Thoros of Myr could now resurrect people. The red comet was just the signifier that happened after the dragons were born.

by Anonymousreply 435July 26, 2019 5:15 PM

[quote]He took care of both threats - ice and fire. I don't know why this is so hard for people to figure out.

Maybe because Dany was never presented as a "threat" until the episode where Jon killed her. That might have something to do with it.

by Anonymousreply 436July 26, 2019 5:18 PM

In terms of a sequel, it could easily happen down the line. That us the way the industry works now, projects can lay dormant for a while and we can return to them years later.

Give it like 8-10 years and then the actors and David and Dan (who like it nor would be involved) might feel like talking to HBO about a return to Westeros.

by Anonymousreply 437July 26, 2019 5:19 PM

The books won't even be published by then, Martin will either be dead or on his death bed and most important he wants the rights to die with him. His publishing contract states that there can be no ghostwriters. No projects without him.

by Anonymousreply 438July 26, 2019 5:32 PM

There were two "Sex and the City" movie sequels. There aren't going to be any with GoT? Puhleeze!

by Anonymousreply 439July 26, 2019 5:39 PM

HBO has the rights to the story already r439. It doesn't matter if he ever publishes more books, they can make more Game Of Thrones properties.

The ghostwriter thing applies to the books, we aren't talking about the books at all. This about more productions set in the GoT universe.

by Anonymousreply 440July 26, 2019 5:42 PM

No, HBO had the distribution rights to the product that D&D produced. Martin has maintained the other rights. They can' do nothing without him. Many people tried to buy the rights but George held out until he got the deal he wanted.

by Anonymousreply 441July 26, 2019 5:59 PM

There will be a sequel down the line. I very much doubt that D&D will be involved though. I seem to remember GRRM mentioning that he already had ideas about what might happen afterwards, but we’ll see.

There were so many loose ends in the show. The fact we never found out who the voice was in the flames that Varys heard when he was cut really bugs me. I hate the fact that the wildfire under the capital was effectively a narrative white elephant too. The whole capital should have been destroyed by it. I’m convinced in the books that George is heading in that direction, and Bran was responsible for turning Aerys mad, like when he changed Hodor into Hodor, so that he’d place the wildfire under King’s Landing.

by Anonymousreply 442July 26, 2019 8:23 PM

The "Madness" arch had [italic]so much[/italic] hidden Shakespearean potential, but was completely wasted in a lazy, Disney cartoon-ish script.

It would have been truly [bold]Emmy-worthy[/bold] if they bothered to put more thought into it. They could still write Daenerys as going “mad” (either clinically insane, or simply excessively cruel) - that would be wonderfully poignant - but with more sophisticated script changes. Including a change that would give Jon Snow something more interesting to do (and not waste his Targaryen storyline).

Martin’s GoT is a largely Medieval-inspired saga. He borrowed entire general story-lines from the Middle Ages (Game of Thrones = War of the Roses, i.e. 15th C wars for the English throne; Dothraki = medieval 13th-15th C Tatar-Mongolian invasion). And characters too (King Joffrey = Prince Edward of Lancaster, Sansa = Elizabeth of York, both 15th C) . Even the geography: Westeros is a bigger continental amalgamation of England, Scotland (= independent-minded “North”), Ireland (= rebellious Iron Island), Spain (= exotic Dorne), and France (= rich Highgarden).

[bold]So it would make MORE sense for the Series Finale to continue Martin’s historical pattern and echo a similarly ca. 15th C story.[/bold] BUT the screenwriters B&W decided to jump ca. 500 years into the Future, [italic]half a Millenium[/italic] forward (!) - and create a 20th C Third Reich-rhetoric storyline for Daenerys. They made this leap in order to make a ([italic]very[/italic] heavy-handed, clumsily-written, in-your-face) ‘moralistic’ stand about how ‘war is bad’ and ’tyranny is bad’ and blah blah.

Problem is - such a jump is incongrous and sticks out like a sore thumb in this mostly Medieval saga. Because if Hitler had lived in the Middle Ages - he likely wouldn’t even be considered that different from all the other warmongering, autocratic rulers! That’s what leaders DID in the Middle Ages (i.e. before the Age of Enlightenment, and the slow rise of Voltaire’s humanistic philosophy) - they fought & they conquered.

The closest analogy to Hitler’s megalomania in the Medieval era might be Genghis Khan (13th C). However, ironically, he mostly was (and STILL is) widely respected in Asia and bordering Eastern Europe. He’s hailed as the “THE greatest leader” in the history of Central Asia, not as a “Mad King”. Why? Because his megalomania & cruel conquest was not illegal back in that time. He mostly operated by the laws & customs of his Era - he was just more successful at it than others, conquering and (for a time uniting) most of Central Asia. Just like Ceaser and Alexander before him conquered most of Southern Europe and Western Asia.

[bold]It was painfully OBVIOUS how sloppy the Third Reich final storyline was.[/bold] For example, in the Final episode, B&W wrote & directed a scene where Daenerys is giving a ‘Hitler-esque’ speech to her troops, with an eyerollingly obvious gigantic Reich-like flag draped from the building behind her (to hammer in this ‘Nazi’ parallel, in case someone ‘missed it’). But B&W were so aroused with sticking in cliché, over-used Nazi symbology that they completely FORGOT they were still in a MEDIEVAL-type ERA. Daenerys was giving her strategy speech, standing atop some gigantic staircase, ridiculously far away from her troops below. They would mostly NOT be able to hear her speech from such a faraway podium! [bold]This 20th-century scene was obviously LAZILY copy-pasted from Adolf’s podium speeches - BUT he had a MICROPHONE and electric loudspeakers![/bold] This scene (in the final episode, no less) does NOT work in quasi-Medieval England.

This illustrates that the writer-directors were obsessed with ‘cool-looking (misguided) postcard visuals’ over a common-sense Medieval-type plot. It’s a beautiful visual, no doubt - but this 20th C [italic]pastiche[/italic] just doesn’t fit in GoT’s world.

Unlike Martin, B&W clearly have no ear for nuanced, detailed Medieval-type world-building.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 443July 26, 2019 8:39 PM

*King Joffrey Baratheon ([bold]Lannister[/bold]) = Prince Edward of [bold]Lancaster[/bold]; Sansa [bold]Stark[/bold] = Elizabeth of [bold]York[/bold], both 15th C.

by Anonymousreply 444July 26, 2019 8:43 PM

"Unlike Martin, B&W clearly have no ear for nuanced, detailed Medieval-type world-building. "

Well they did in the early seasons! They had everyone behaving like authentic Medieval characters with authentic Medieval beliefs, using Medieval technology and suffering from the Medieval lack of birth control, with the exception of Tyrion. And as noted, Tyrion was such an outsider in his society and so bright, that we all believed that his beliefs could be different than the other characters'.

What the hell happened.

by Anonymousreply 445July 26, 2019 9:40 PM

I give it three to five years and there will definitely be a movie sequel. They left it open for that. The sources of conflict and treachery were there for anyone to ee. Bronn as Master of coin? Grey Worm happily ever after on Naath? Arya, who is a trained assassin, seeking adventure? Sansa as QUEEN in the North? Jon riding off with the Wildings? Drogon out there some where flying around with DeadDany?

Hunny, something is going to pop. And don't forget. The Faceless Men are still around. Dorne has new leadership. Oh, yeah. I can see a lot of plotlines.

by Anonymousreply 446July 26, 2019 9:45 PM

R446, I agree with you. There is absolutely, categorically going to be a movie sequel. Sooner rather than later. Anyone who doesn't think so is delusional. They will definitely home in on the misadventures of the small council. There will probably be several assassination attempts on Bran, the Iron Islands and Dorne may wage war to declare for independence, Bronn will have proven himself to be totally unfit to manage the realm's finances, Tyrion will be in over his head, etc. And yes, Drogon and deadDanny (possibly resurrected by a Red Witch in Volantis) is a definite subplot.

by Anonymousreply 447July 26, 2019 10:08 PM

R442

Conleth answered that at comic con. It was Dany saying, "Dracarys".

by Anonymousreply 448July 27, 2019 1:17 AM

R445, in the early seasons they were still, more or less, following Martin’s quasi-Medieval storylines (from the books). The Feudal Era-style social behaviour & honour codes, the dialogues, the religious beliefs, even the costumes, etc - many of those rich-tapestry details came from the books. But by the last seasons (including S8) they were left to their own devices (no more direct literary text to adapt) and had to continue Medieval-type world-building on their own.

But Medieval history is obviously not B&W’s forté. Martin is clearly a Medieval history geek (given how much he borrowed from that era - names, events, etc). Whereas, B&W seem to be more interested in modern history (talk of democracy, constitutional monarchy, Nazism, etc). And they’re also not very detail-oriented - but it’s the details which make a World convincing. That’s why the originally Medieval-style characters from the first seasons started acting out-of-character towards the final season (like a young, almost teenage Sansa interrupting her older uncle (her ELDER) and telling him to shut up and “sit down” during a council meeting! lol) and often with unexplored, non-detailed (and therefore inexplicable) motivations.

by Anonymousreply 449July 27, 2019 2:15 AM

As for the ‘Madness arch’ itself, it could have been such a rich story-tapestry in the hands of a talented, interesting screenwriter. They can even keep the same main plot skeleton (Snow kills Daenerys and goes into exile), but change the context:

(1) Option A: [bold]Clinically insane option.[/bold] Daenerys is a product of multi-generational in-breeding (like the Austrian Habsburg royal dynasty). So like Martin (who drew most of his inspiration from Medieval history), [bold]they could have made Daenerys more like actual Monarchs who sincerely suffered from this ailment.[/bold] It’s a real tragedy when you are losing your faculties, especially in cases when the person has intermittent moments of clarity and, in utter horror, realises they’re descending into a dark abyss, but are genuinely helpless to reverse the progression of the horrible, debilitating ilness. And it’s even more tragic if it happens to you while you’re a Monarch, expected to lead a nation - and are unable to. That’s a Shakespearean-level script opportunity right there (and a chance for Emilia Clarke to try for an Emmy nod) - which was wasted.

The monarchs who could serve as such King Lear-type tragic prototypes for Daenerys could be: King Charles VI of France (14th C), known as Charles le Fou (Charles the Mad) - suffered from bouts of psychosis, including glass delusion (where the afflicted person think they’re made of glass and can ‘shatter’). King Henry VI of England (15th C) - a breakdown caused him to neglect state affairs for more than a year (which was the catalyst for the Wars of the Roses). Queen Joanna of Castile (16th C), known as Juana la Loca (Joana the Mad) - reportedly suffered from melancholia, psychosis or schizophrenia. Etc.

by Anonymousreply 450July 27, 2019 2:18 AM

(2) Option B: [bold]Secret political conspiracy by the Lords / Courtiers of King’s Landing (“Conspirators”) to destroy the newly-minted (inconvenient, stubborn, foreign) Targaryen Queen - by twisting information and SLANDERING her as the “Mad Queen” and then summarily executing/assassinating her. In order to prop up her direct hereditary successor / nephew - the naïve Jon Snow - as (a more easily controlled & manipulated) Targaryen King instead.[/bold]

Or even by manipulatively turning Snow and Daenerys (incestous nephew and aunt, last royal survivors of their twisted Dynasty) against each other - to destroy BOTH of them, in order to stamp out the (overly powerful, often mentally unstable) Targaryen Clan, ONCE AND FOR ALL. The showrunners could still have the same outcome - Snow stabs Daenerys in an assassination coup - but give it a DEEPER CONTEXT and imbue it with more of GoT’s trademark political intrigue:

[bold]Martin wrote his Medieval story in great part as a Political Intrigue Thriller - almost like a Medieval House of Cards[/bold]. But B&W’s final season throws almost ALL sophisticated political intrigue & games out the window - which is why it feels so one-dimensional and flat. So this is how the main events of the Finale could have been contextualised better:

(i) Daenerys succeeds in taking the Iron Throne. She executes Cersei. The common people of King’s Landing (KL) are in a mix of awe & fear of Daenerys & her army and obey her. However, a faction of KL / Westerosi Nobility (perhaps under Cersei’s posthumous guidance) will NOT be happy: because Daenerys is, after all, a foreign-raised, reformist-type Autocratic Monarch (almost an ideological zealot), who brings this new ‘strange ideology’ and ’faith’ in (moderate) reform to the land. She does not believe in reforming her own power structure obviously - but she is ideologically adamant about reforming (and weakening) the power structures of OTHER powerful lords below her. ‘Freeing’ slaves from their masters. Giving more power to vassals over their feudal lords perhaps.

And the Westerosi Nobility will see this new ‘ideology’ as incredibly inconvenient, even DANGEROUS to them and their existing Feudalist World Order. This albino foreign-raised child-Queen threatens to upend their whole rigid Establishement. She’s like an overzealous, maximalist Protestant-faith Queen who comes to rule a Catholic-faith Land. She wasn’t raised in Westeros - so she’s an unknown quality. The only thing that Westerosi Nobility know about her is that she ‘freed’ slaves and killed masters in Essos - so they’d be TERRIFIED that, by analogy, she’ll start doing similar ‘reforms’ in Westeros (taking some power away from the most powerful, top Feudal lords and handing it to their historic vassals or her foreign zealot followers from Essos).

Because that is how Daenerys rose to power, grew an army and operates: she gets loyalty, support and adoration from her followers in return for shaking up power structures in every land she conquers. Vassals (smaller houses, etc) and slaves (together, the population majority) often don’t like their Feudal over-lords - so they are all too happy to support her.

[bold]So, it would make a lot of sense for Westerosi Nobility to want to de-throne her immediately. She is DANGEROUS to them for many reasons:[/bold] She is a zealot with a foreign ideology. She brought over a HORDE of hungry foreigners with her, and can put her Eunuchs in high military positions (instead of local Lords). She is a hot-tempered and stubborn Ruler and cannot be easily controlled by the local Nobility (who would prefer a Puppet Monarch) ...

by Anonymousreply 451July 27, 2019 2:21 AM

... (ii) So some of the Lords / Maesters of Westeros (“Conspirators”) develop a plan to oust her. [bold]A plan that has successfully been used by the Nobility to get rid of many “undesirable” Monarchs in history - they declare her “Mad”.[/bold] They spread false rumours and “whispers” among the population that Daenerys is becoming an “unstable Mad Queen” and “a threat to their existing world order”. [bold]This could have been a PERFECT juicy role for GoT’s 2 greatest, Machiavellian ‘Grey Cardinals’, pulling strings behind the scenes.[/bold] Either for the cunning “Littlefinger” Lord Baelish - unfortunately B&W killed him off too soon, in a silly, anti-climatic way for such a mastermind. Or for Maester Varys (a manipulative “Master of Whispers”, basically the head of Medieval CIA) - unfortunately, as always, B&W completely wasted this juicy character by making him a generic ‘goodie-goodie’ pet-advisor for Daenerys. In any case, this role can be fulfilled by any Machiavellian group of Conspirators in King’s Landing.

(iii) Snow - who is a brave, but simple-minded military war hero and not experienced at political games - could be [italic]fooled[/italic] by these Conspirators into believing Daenerys was becoming insane like her father and making ‘deadly threats’ to Winterfell and his family. Daenerys is a hot-headed Targaryen Queen, so it would be easy to manipulate her to make such threats or even to order Sansa’s arrest (by “whispering” in Daenerys’ ear that Sansa in Winterfell is ungratefully scheming against her, like the Northern Mary of Scots against Elizabeth I). So the Conspirators would be weaving an intricate web of lies and deceipt, turning the main characters against each other, and setting up Daenerys as “Mad” by stirring up both her paranoia about the independence-seeking North and the North’s mutual paranoia about her.

(iv) Out of a sense of genuine, desperate duty and love for his family, Snow would be driven to assassinate Daenerys. [bold]As the saying goes: “Fight Fire with Fire”. And the Conspirators would literally use Snow (Aegon Targaryen = part Fire) as a pawn in their game to eliminate Daenerys (Fire as well)[/bold].

(v) Snow and Daenerys would either destroy each other in mutual, inter-dynasty ‘fire’ conflict. Or Daenerys would be assassinated by Snow, and he would then automatically (and reluctantly) become King as the righful heir (the last Targaryen - Aegon VII).

(vi) But when the truth inevitably comes to light and the Conspirators’ plan unmasked (e.g. thanks to Bran who has visions - which the Conspirators did not factor in), the new King Aegon Targaryen (Snow) would be consumed with DEVASTATING, unbearable guilt. He mistakenly killed his non-guilty relative and beloved partner, in a Machiavellian set-up and ‘game of thrones’ which he NEVER wanted to play in. He abdicates and sends himself into exile, as penitence.

This in my opinion, would be overall the more interesting & tragic option. It would slighlty echo Egar Allan Poe’s “The Fall of the House of Usher”: where brother & sister are the last mentally-unstable descendants / survivors of a once-great noble House - and then perish together. Because the brother accidentally (or knowingly) virtually kills the “mad” sister, burying her alive in the family crypt, but she escapes (before dying from her stuggle) and hauntingly blames him for his mistake, causing him to die as well (out of fear and/or deep guilt). With their mutual death - the once-great House of Usher crumbles. Just like House Targaryen.

(vii) Bran becomes King. Why? Because he is Aegon Targaryen’s (Snow’s) male heir. Snow doesn’t have children of his own and the Targaryens are dead, their Dynastical line is over. Snow’s abdication passes the Crown to his closest surviving maternal relatives - the Stark family clan: Either Sansa (oldest female) or Bran (younger but a male heir). Rather than in-fight for the Throne, the siblings reach a mutual understanding and ‘divide and conquer’: Bran becomes King of Westeros (South), while Sansa becomes Queen of the North.

The End ...

by Anonymousreply 452July 27, 2019 2:24 AM

… So basically that would still honour most of the same plot milestones that B&W wanted - but with more narrative context and depth (Daenerys is accused by scheming Westerosi Nobility of being "mad", Snow falls for the lies and assassinates his aunt, being then reluctantly declared King, but it will drive him to despair once he finds out he was used).

This way the over-looked, sidelined characters get more active, interesting roles to play in the Finale. [bold]The seeds of the Conspiracy against Daenerys can even be planted by Cersei before her execution. (In order to give Cersei at least SOMETHING important to do - rather than have such a JUICY character just guzzle wine and stare out of a window).[/bold] Cersei would be smart enough to understand that she can lose the battle against Daenerys. So, as someone who is experienced in poisons (and who already had her own and her children’s suicide planned out last time KL was besieged), she decides to metaphorically POISON Daenerys’ rule even if Daenerys wins the battle. She engages her KL nobles and her Master of Whispers to destroy Daenerys with rumours of “madness”, to plant seeds of “paranoia” about her, and to pit Daenerys’ own lover, Snow, and the North, against Daenerys. [bold]Cersei will die - but she will make sure that Daenerys will not get to enjoy her Rule either and will perish too - at the hands of her lover, no less, to make it even more painful for Daenerys. THAT would be Cersei’s ultimate revenge - even if it’s served cold, after her own death.[/bold]

[bold]Obligatory photo of Jon Snow in this alternative narrative development - as the tragic, doomed King Aegon VII Targaryen, last of his name.[/bold] A benevolent King, a manipulated Pawn, a legendary military hero and a tragically doomed destroyer of his own House:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 453July 27, 2019 2:40 AM

No, just no.

We saw what was left of the Westerosi nobility. This was partially a story about the attrition of war.

Get a grip.

Or write your own book.

by Anonymousreply 454July 27, 2019 2:44 AM

What "Attrition (sorrow) of war", R454?

In the Final episode, King's Landing was shown partially destroyed (babies got barbecued) - and a few scenes later EVERYONE is happy & MERRY again, cracking jokes about re-building BROTHELS! No one is 'shell-shocked' for long, no one has PTSD, no one is even in mourning. Any sign of mass graves and funerals? Nope. Everyone's cheery again.

The Dothraki soldiers are shown merrily walking around King's Landing streets, mixing with the locals again - as if they didn't just rape & slaughter half a city! The Unsullied (who cheerily executed every male defendant of King's Landing) are graciously offered by Davos their own House and lands in Westeros. Right next to the city they sacked! Gee, those Westerosi 'victims' sure have forgiving hearts (or short memories like goldfish).

You call that "a story about the attrition of war"? Lol, it's more like a ridiculous parody.

by Anonymousreply 455July 27, 2019 3:12 AM

R455 You thought that was "cheery"?

I'd hate go to a party at your house.

by Anonymousreply 456July 27, 2019 3:18 AM

R450-453... I had a third alternate ending in mind, one where the conflict between Jon and Danerys intensifies after Cersei dies and Danerys becomes queen, and it builds up into a full-blown civil war, where all the surviving major characters take sides against people they know and sometimes love. Think of the drama that could have provided - former lovers trying to destroy each other even though they still have personal feelings, the last two surviving members of a house trying to kill the other off, people like Jamie and Brienne or Tyrion and Varys taking opposite sides, Jon going into the final battle having no idea if his dragon is going to obey him or its "mother"... That'd be better than the mess we actually had, huh!

Because yeah, like MANY other fans, I drew up an outline for my version of the last season. Mine actually involved two seasons, one for the war against the Night's King and his Undead Horde, and the other to finish off Cersei in a couple of episodes and to give tine for the last Dance of the Dragons (intra-Targaryan war) to develop some real gut-wrenching drama. Because really, there really was no hope of wrapping the whole show up with the quality it deserved, in half a proper season.

by Anonymousreply 457July 27, 2019 3:33 AM

Yep, R457, I'd pay good money to watch something truly dramatic and psychologically nuanced like that.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 458July 27, 2019 3:40 AM

[quote] We saw what was left of the Westerosi nobility.

“Left” of them, R454? Westeros is written as a continent, made up of 7 Kingdoms. Every lord of every house (from low to high) across all those kingdoms is a member of the Westerosi nobility. They have thousands of nobles “left” in Westeros. Otherwise they’d be a continent of manure-wheelers and cheesemongers :).

R456, for a populace that just recently survived mass homicide - yes, they were remarkably cheery. If the point was to underscore how ‘naughty-naughty’ war is - then maybe they shouldn’t have shown Tyrion more concerned with adjusting wooden chairs at a table than checking survivors for pulses :).

Lol, and I loved when Samwell Tarly rocked up in the end and started excitedly plugging his new book about recent carnage and cheerily calling it a “Song…” (in homage to Martin). I don’t remember anyone calling Hiroshima “a Sing-Song of Wind and Water” :).

And this is the guy below who's aiming on enlightening us about the "attrition of medieval war"? I mean, seriously, THIS guy?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 459July 27, 2019 4:44 AM

Wow R459

Find a new interest. This one is a dead end for you.

by Anonymousreply 460July 27, 2019 5:57 AM

[quote] This one is a dead end for you.

R460, your [italic]very[/italic] suspicious, prescient language about a "dead end" suggests you might be the naughty person behind the DDOS on DL, rendering it temporarily "dead".

[quote] Find a new interest.

Like one of yours? Sorry, I'm not into sewing caftans and running hackathons.

by Anonymousreply 461July 28, 2019 3:12 PM

look. Dany going insane was totally mishandled by D&D period. Jon killing Dany stretched the limits of credulity. Period. IMO Dany should have died heroically during the battle of Winterfell. Maybe standing beside Ser Jorah, battling zombies until the end! Jon, being a Targaryen could have tamed Drogon , especially since he rode Raegal into combat at Drogon's side. Then Jon takes the armies of the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied and the fucking dragons, and rides into battle at King's Landing. takes the city with very little bloodshed, Yara kills Euron and Cersei stands trial and is executed. Jon says "Dracarys! " and Cersei is roasted.

In my version Bronn would have either taken the money and run, or got killed by Wightwalkers as he rode to Winterfell. Bad timing. Of course I'd rather he not get involved in some bullshit plot to kill the Lannister brothers. I'd rather he just decides to ride North to help Jaime & Tyrion and gets killed en route. He's not that damned important. Jaime would have died in Battle at Winterfell....in Brienne's arms. At the end.After Cersei is executed Jon agrees to be the ruler...temporarily until a governing council can be set up and a ruler is elected. Tyrion Sam Tormund Davos Bran and Sansa would be on that council with Lord Royce and various randoms. Bran's special powers would prevent them from underhanded bullshit and treachery. The Unsullied would go back to Myreen to help Daario, and the Dothraki would get absorbed into the Westeros ruler's armies. Haven't figured out what I's have Jon do with the dragons but they've earned a rest.

by Anonymousreply 462July 28, 2019 5:04 PM

R462, I prefer your version over what B&W wrote. Some thoughts to ponder though:

[quote] IMO Dany should have died heroically during the battle of Winterfell. Maybe standing beside Ser Jorah, battling zombies until the end!

Sure, that’s an option. Though Daenerys would likely not battle standing on the ground. She’s not a trained fighter - she can’t even wield a sword, just like Queen Cersei. Plus, she’s almost a midget. Queens usually don’t engage in hand-to-hand active combat - they are the ‘brain’ and symbol of an operation and should be protected by others at all costs.

[quote] a governing council can be set up and a ruler is elected. Tyrion Sam Tormund Davos Bran and Sansa would be on that council with Lord Royce and various randoms. Bran's special powers would prevent them from underhanded bullshit and treachery.

Only people with top ruling positions should be on that Westeros 'Ruler Election' Council. [bold]Sansa and Bran - are no one.[/bold] As long as Snow is alive - he is the eldest surviving dynastical representative of House Stark (because his mother was Lyanna Stark). Snow was also affirmed by all the Northern lords (Stark clan’s vassals) as “King in the North” (i.e. head of House Stark). Sansa and Bran (who hold NO official positions whatsoever) shouldn’t be allowed to decide anything on that council.

Otherwise, you’ll give House Stark (i.e. the North) 3+ voting seats (plus, their allies - e.g. Tormund). Whereas e.g. Dorne, Highgarden, Iron Islands, etc get just 1 voting seat each. So OF COURSE in this unbalanced, rigged system, House Stark will promote and vote for each other :).

Davos - same. He’s literally no one in Westeros. Which independent House does he even represent? He’s just a naval officer, who follows orders.

Sam - should only be allowed on the Governing Council if Daenerys (or smn else) killed off his father and brother, like in B&W’s script. Because only then will he be House Tarly’s dynastical heir & representative.

[quote] the Dothraki would get absorbed into the Westeros ruler's armies

What happened with all the Dothraki women and children? Aren’t they still back in Essos, waiting for their men to return after conquering Westeros? AFAIK, Daenerys didn’t bring the females and children with her in the sea journey. So the Dothraki should be paid off and kicked back to their Essos continent. Absorbing them into a Westerosi army long-term - would be like absorbing the Tatar-Mongol Horde into Britain’s army.

Tyrion (new head of House Lannister, after his older siblings were eliminated) should worry less about electing a Westerosi Ruler and more about repaying his House's debt to the Iron Bank. Because his sister took out a gigantic loan from them and pissed away all the money - and they'll want their money back. "A Lannister always repays his debts", so Tyrion better get on that.

by Anonymousreply 463July 28, 2019 8:32 PM

Because even Tywin Lannister was afraid of the Iron Bank and told his family to always repay them:

[quote] "One stone crumbles and another takes its place, and the temple holds its form for 1,000 years or more. And that's what the Iron Bank is, a temple. We all live in its shadow and almost none of us know it. [bold]You can't run from them, you can't cheat them, you can't sway them with excuses. If you owe them money and you don't want to crumble yourself, you pay it back."[/bold]

The Iron Bank is described as follows:

[quote] The Iron Bank of Braavos is a bank in the Free City of Braavos. It is arguably the most powerful financial institution in the Known World, with clients across Essos and Westeros ... Just as a common saying about House Lannister is "A Lannister always pays his debts", [bold]there is also a common saying that the bank often reminds its clients who fail to repay their loans: "the Iron Bank will have its due".[/bold]

So if Tyrion doesn't want a brand new war or some other political mess between Westeros and Braavos (in Essos) - he better ramp up the taxes in his Casterly Rock domain and pay back the Lannisters' debt.

by Anonymousreply 464July 28, 2019 9:11 PM

I was hoping that, to end the war, Jon and Cersei would have a parley that would call for them to get married. Just the idea of them two being shacked to each other would have been very entertaining. Of course, Dany would have to be dead beforehand.

by Anonymousreply 465July 28, 2019 9:21 PM

[quote]the Dothraki would get absorbed into the Westeros ruler's armies

This statement is sooo strange. It's like you never really watched the show.

The Dothraki have their own culture and people and families and religiously significant homelands. They were only in Westeros at Dany's bidding. They only follow the strongest leader and Dany's dead and her killer is imprisoned . They're going back to Essos.

You exhibit such a lack of understanding of the essence, or dare I say, the moral, that endless war and conflict leads to despair and is an ultimately worthless endeavor.

Did you miss the point that the Iron Throne was the most cursed booby prize in the world? Oh no you thought the show was a fancy schmancy metaphor for the best sporting event Evah! "Well that team didn't win but they just have to regroup with a new head coach Jon Snow and they can take the championship, I mean the throne!!!!

by Anonymousreply 466July 28, 2019 9:34 PM

Ha, that would be entertaining indeed, R465. But if Snow and Cersei were married off to each other in an arranged-marriage truce - Cersei would still effectively rule Westeros (because Snow has been turned into a nihilist pushover).

Snow and Daenerys would never be allowed to rule together by the showrunners - because that would mean Celebration & Final Triumph of Incest :). And we can't have that, not even on HBO.

That's why they killed off Cersei, Jamie and all their 3-4 children too (even the innocent ones) - as symbolic punishment for Incest.

They had 2 main incestuous power-couples: Jamie/Cersei (brother-sister) and Snow/Daenerys (nephew/aunt). And they killed off both couples to hammer in that "incest is bad".

by Anonymousreply 467July 28, 2019 9:41 PM

Jon Snow was not killed off.

by Anonymousreply 468July 28, 2019 9:49 PM

I think Cersei winning the war would "subverted expectations."

by Anonymousreply 469July 28, 2019 9:50 PM

But when Jon slept with Dany, he had no idea she was his aunt. It was only AFTER he found out that he stopped sleeping with her.

by Anonymousreply 470July 28, 2019 9:52 PM

R468, fine, Nephew & Aunt - as an incestuous mating couple - were metaphorically killed off. The Aunt - literally, and the Nephew - exiled.

R470, yes, but the Aunt STILL wanted to ride his cock after finding out they were close relatives. That's the real underlying reason why they had to get rid of her - and spared Snow by sending him into exile. The fact that he wasn't fully comfortable ejaculating into his aunt after the revelation saved his life.

They had to kill off one, or the other, or both - they couldn't end the Series Finale with an Incestuous Couple triumphing and giving each other blowjobs/cunnilingus. And even if Daenerys gave up asking for Snow's cock (which is unlikely given how stubborn she is) - they're still tainted with it forever. Even if the trysts are in past, their continued, awkward, yucky sexual longing for each other hangs over them like a cloud.

by Anonymousreply 471July 28, 2019 10:11 PM

Btw, that's why I think B&W wrote themselves into a bit of a corner. As soon as they introduced the Aunt/Nephew sex storyline (which, AFAIK, is not in Martin's books - either yet or at all), it was clear as day they'd have to get rid of the Aunt or Nephew down the line. Can't have cringey incest winning the day on a mainstream TV network, now can we? :)

And since Cersei was an incestuous freak as well, it was obvious they wouldn't let her survive either.

My bet back then was on Sansa Stark becoming Queen (since almost everyone else is out of the running, by accidentally or intentionally sticking their cocks where they shouldn't go). Even though Sansa annoys me. But B&W 'subverted' my expectations by making her only Queen of the North, and her brother - King of the rest. Though he's the one who messed up Aunt & Nephew by telling them they're freaks, even by Medieval standards. And then, with them conveniently out of the way, Brandon took their place. Little cunning bastard :).

by Anonymousreply 472July 28, 2019 10:35 PM

Remember that scene? Remember when Dany was on her dragon, and the zombies climbed on and forced her to land? Remember when Ser Jorah was fighting them off and she was standing next to him, he was wounded, and she was fighting them too, with a shard of dragon glass or some kind of dragon glass spear? That's when she should have died. WEeping and crying and dying with Jorah. As Drogon surrounded them and protected their dead bodies. Boom. Dany dies heroically. Period.

R466, you a re so fucking knowledgeable and SO fucking sensitive. Jeez. Fine send the fucking Dothraki back to Essos. Some of them may want to stay. And if in my version Jon is now the top guy and controls the dragons, they will do what he says. They went with Dany because she burned their leaders and walked from the fire unscathed. Bi Magic. And she has dragons. I mean. WTF. I don't care what the Dothraki do. If they leave fine. If they stay fine. WTF. Ya know? Don't get fixated on bullshit. And wipe the smug off you face before you offend someone with the stink.

by Anonymousreply 473July 28, 2019 10:39 PM

R472, Yeah, he was a cunning little bastard wasn't he! LOLOL!

by Anonymousreply 474July 28, 2019 10:40 PM

Speaking of Sam... why the FUCK is he Grandmaester and not Warden of the Reach? Really, Sam's father was given the whole damn Reach when the Tyrells were wiped out, and then Danerys roasted Sam's father and unmarried brother... and the Night's Watch seems to have wrapped up, so Sam is free to claim the whole Reach as his inheritance and to become one of the Great Lords of Westeros.

Instead, he's Grandmaester even though he dropped out of Maester school as a freshman, and we have no idea who's ruling the Reach. I cannot fucking believe how sloppy they got in the last season! For the first five years or so they expected each and every viewer to know who was related to whom and who ruled what and how they got to power... and now the politics of Westeros are a complete hash.

by Anonymousreply 475July 29, 2019 4:19 AM

What about Brienne being Lord Commander of the Kingsguard under King Bran? I realize this was done so she could update Jaime's wikipedia page with all of his whitewashed good deeds. But it doesn't make sense as Brienne was sworn to Sansa and really should be the Lord Commander of her Queensguard.

by Anonymousreply 476July 29, 2019 2:33 PM

[Quote]and we have no idea who's ruling the Reach.

In one of the most ludicrous writing decisions, they had Bronn put in charge of the Reach. A character who was taken too far just because he was a fan favorite.

by Anonymousreply 477July 29, 2019 2:39 PM

No, Bronn was given High Garden. He was not given the Tarley holdings. Maybe we're to assume Samwell does have The Reach, Horn Hill, and is Grand Maester and Council member too.

I never cared much for Bronn. He was OK at first, and I'm glad he saved Jaime from beingdragon-roasted, but his attitude changed by the time of the meeting when Dany andCersei met to talk about a truce. He had an edge.

by Anonymousreply 478July 29, 2019 3:37 PM

Highgarden is the seat of power of the Reach, like Winterfell is for the North.

Bronn is Lord Paramount of the Reach, Tyrion directly says so during the council scene, go look at the transcripts. Presumably Sam is the Lord of Horn Hill, which are the Tarley holdings.

by Anonymousreply 479July 29, 2019 3:45 PM

Actually unless Bran changed the rules, by being a Maester Sam would have to give up his claim on Horn Hill, so who knows. I doubt David and Dan put any thought into who is the Lord of Horn Hill.

by Anonymousreply 480July 29, 2019 3:56 PM

"But it doesn't make sense as Brienne was sworn to Sansa and really should be the Lord Commander of her Queensguard. "

Oh, I'm sure Sansa found a way around that, like "...your first oath was to my mother, and my mother would want nothing more than for you to protect her SON...".

But I'm sure their parting was by tacit mutual agreement, Sansa wouldn't really want someone with Brienne's conscience and acute ethical sense around when she had options. And Brienne wouldn't want to go on being sent away every time Sansa is about to do something iffy, that was already a pattern.

by Anonymousreply 481July 29, 2019 5:15 PM

I don't know if anyone noticed but they were changing lots of rules. Female King's Guard!!

Bronn from start to finish was in it for the coin and the castle. He explicitly stated that, over and over. And it's historically correct. Their was quite the turnover during the Wars of the Roses. Houses died off, and others were created. Tudor anyone? 3 generations from servant to crown.

by Anonymousreply 482July 29, 2019 7:51 PM

*there

by Anonymousreply 483July 29, 2019 7:52 PM

R476 No, as the only living child of her father’s, she really should have gone back to Tarth to eventually rule. I HATE that Brienne and Pod were essentially reduced to becoming Bran’s carers just because they wanted her to write Jaime’s deeds in the White Book. There’s something far more interesting going on with her in the books, especially in the aftermath of the Golden Company landing on Tarth.

by Anonymousreply 484July 29, 2019 7:56 PM

[quote]There’s something far more interesting going on with her in the books, especially in the aftermath of the Golden Company landing on Tarth.

And that's just another fucking shaggy dog/tangent that GRRM got caught up with which is why the books HAVEN'T BEEN FINISHED!!

Fuck Tarth. It's the Song of Ice and Fire not the song of Lions and Butterflies.

by Anonymousreply 485July 29, 2019 8:03 PM

[Quote]No, as the only living child of her father’s, she really should have gone back to Tarth to eventually rule

You just have a Castellan rule in your name. Many lords in Westeros have spent a lot of their life working in Kings Landing while other people run their homestead in their name.

by Anonymousreply 486July 29, 2019 8:53 PM

"I don't know if anyone noticed but they were changing lots of rules. Female King's Guard!! "

It's likely enough that there's no official rule against women being in the Kingsguard, because nobody ever considered the possibility. As for Brienne going back to Tarth to be its hereditary ruler, if she did that, she'd have to marry and bear children, and it'd be an arranged marriage made for political reasons. So I can see her doing what so many kingsguard members have done before her, including Jamie and the Loras of the books, join up because they want to avoid a marriage they'd find unbearable.

So unless it's been firmly established that Brienne has no male cousins who could take over the family holdings, I'm willing to let that one slide. The last episode alone had a million bigger problems.

by Anonymousreply 487July 30, 2019 3:38 AM

You're gonna let that one slide, how gracious of you.

No rule about the Kingsguard? They didn't anoint women. No knighthood, no Kngsguard appointment. Jaime broke with tradition because he thought they would die that night.

by Anonymousreply 488July 30, 2019 3:52 AM

Women had never been knighted, but there was no actual rule in place against it. No one would even think to make a rule because most people would never conceive of a woman becoming a knight.

by Anonymousreply 489July 30, 2019 3:56 AM

Brienne thought about it. Pod thought about it. Hell, Tormund thought about it.

by Anonymousreply 490July 30, 2019 4:11 AM

Brienne, Pod, and Tormund don't get to make the Knighthood rules! No, really, I bet your workplace doesn't have a rule against using company rubber bands to shoot flying pigs out of the sky and collect the money that flies out of their asses, because no policy-maker thinks that could ever happen.

No, I can believe there wouldn't be a rule on that front. What I can't believe is that Bronn would be allowed to steal the royal treasury! Who the hell would appoint him? He's got no powerful allies left except Tyrion, and Tyrion knows exactly how amoral the man is, plus he would also be fully aware that the Iron Fucking Bank wouldn't fall for Bronn's bullshit for a second. No, it has to be Bran's idea, and that's the sort of idea whose greatest value is getting the king declared mad and the actual ruling given to a regent.

by Anonymousreply 491July 30, 2019 5:00 AM

You said no one "no one would even conceive of a woman becoming a knight." And I gave you a list of people who did.

You're overconfident. I can do this all the live long day with you. You just keep giving us fodder.

Now get mad and tell me off.

by Anonymousreply 492July 30, 2019 5:08 AM

OK. I'm rewatching. Started with Season 6. When the Masters attack Mereen, and she arrives during the attack, while they're being bombarded from the Master's navy, she argues with Tyrion because she wants to go out there and "kill the masters and burn their cities to the ground and kill them all." That's almost a direct quote. Tyrion, of course, stops her. Instead her newly acquired Dothraki army goes after the Harpys while she & Tyrion parlay with the three masters who engineered the attacks. Grey Worm tells their soldiers to leave, and they do. THen he slits the throats of two and Tyrion sends the third guy back to warn anyone who even thinks about it, that there will be no more slavery. My point being that Dany didn't do stuff unless she was provoked, and even then she was open to advice. In fact, yes she was ruthless, and she needed to grow as a leader, but she was not some batshit crazy person who loved to destroy. I get it. She lost Ser Jorah and Missandei. But IMO the scenario they presented is one where the Dany character they built in previous seasons would have gone after Cersei and given her no quarter, she would not have roasted the entire city.

by Anonymousreply 493July 30, 2019 10:23 AM

As I've read it Dragons don't need other dragons to reproduce. They have both male & female reproductive stuff. But whether they do or not, if Illyrio found three dragon eggs to gift Dany with, how many more are out there. It's possible Jon may have children and one of them will be immune to fire and he'll realize the magic continues.

by Anonymousreply 494July 30, 2019 10:28 AM

One thing that I thought was stupid, is the way people ran around calling themselves kings and queens when they weren't. Like Stannis calling himself the one true King and Davos peddling that bullshit on his behalf, when he was prosecuting a war for the throne but had not achieved it yet.Same with Renley. Then here comes Dany calling herself Queen, just because she arrives at Dragonstone. It was totally stupid.

by Anonymousreply 495July 30, 2019 5:01 PM

Dany was the Queen of Mereen, she was an actual ruler outside of trying to lay claim to Westeros.

But yes, the other titles were still wishful thinking, but how it works.

by Anonymousreply 496July 30, 2019 5:23 PM

R485 Brienne’s carrying one half of Ice. D&D might not have grasped the possibility that ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ has multiple meanings, but that doesn’t mean George didn’t leave it deliberately ambiguous. I know people like to believe that Dany and Jon are the main characters, but GRRM has always pointed out that every POV character in the books is a key player. In Brienne’s case, he scrapped plans to have a 5 year time jump for the sake of including her perspective on the Lady Stoneheart situation.

He was also at pains to point out that Selwyn Tarth had multiple lovers after Brienne’s mother died but never remarried, and made her a recent Targ descendent, through which she’s probably about third in line to the throne after Jon and Dany. (That’s if Aegon is proven to be a fake, and Robert’s rule is deemed to be that of a usurper, therefore discrediting claims that Edric Storm and Gendry might have. Even so, the Baratheon claim was a weak one anyway.) Then there’s the fact George chose for her to go traipsing around the countryside with a much younger Pod in tow, and her nearly getting herself killed for the sake of defending a bunch of orphans, as well her whole conversation with Cat about the birthing bed being a woman’s battle.

Ancestry and heirs are hugely important to Brienne’s arc. I mean George is writing a whole other series in the ASOIAF universe about her ancestor, Ser Duncan the Tall. Jaime might die in the books. Brienne might end up in the Kingsguard, but that’s not happening until after he knocks her up and probably marries her whilst either one of them is recovering on the Quiet Isle. Jaime’s fucking done with Cersei in the books. The only reason he’d go back to King’s Landing is to save Tommen.

by Anonymousreply 497July 30, 2019 8:38 PM

"One thing that I thought was stupid, is the way people ran around calling themselves kings and queens when they weren't. "

Well, that was actually standard for Medieval England. If you want to grab the throne, you declare yourself king, you raise an army, and you fight the incumbent. Whoever wins is actually king. That's why the whole huge stupid civil war that takes up the bulk of the story was called "The War of Five Kings" in the books, at least five men called themselves king and raised enough of an army to have their claims be taken seriously, and that's not counting Danerys and Cersei, who hadn't officially laid claim to the throne when the books petered out.

Of course it was worse in the Dark Ages, in pre-Medieval England any barbarian chieftain could call himself "king". In the legends of King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table, a couple of the knights who sit at the table actually claim the title of king, such as King Pellinore. Which made Arthur the High King, I suppose, although really, any schmuck with a couple of followers could call himself a king.

by Anonymousreply 498July 30, 2019 11:23 PM

OK. Rewatching Season 7. I think it's the second episode. Yara is telling Dany and Tyrion they ought to go to King's Landing and take Cersei out. "We have the ships we have the armies, and we have the dragons." We could end this in a day. But Dany agrees with Tyrion's advice:" I do not intend to be Queen of the ashes." There are other scenes when Dany is seeking advice, when Dany is still champion of the underdog, etc. and Dany gives no impression, none, that she is prone to burning down the entire city and it's inhabitants. In fact she is the one who has no inclination and abhors such tactics. Benioff & Weiss did a piss poor job of showing us the side of Dany that was lurking beneath, the one who went batshit. Anyone who feels inclined to watch Seasons, 6,7, and 8 will see how terrible Benioff and Weiss were. Especially with Dany & Jon.

by Anonymousreply 499August 1, 2019 4:19 AM

R499, the [bold]real reason/bold] why B&W re-wrote Daenerys as idiotically chasing around after trivial cheesemongers & potato-farmers (instead of Cersei, her actual important foe) in the penultimate episode is simple:

[bold]B&W had a huge-ass budget - and they wanted to blow it all on some 'cool, explosive' CGI visuals. But 'Cool', as in the immature-teenage-gamer kind of way, not in a mature-adult narrative writer way.[/bold] B&W are both almost in their 50s, but speak, act, think and, most importantly, WRITE (original content) like teenagers:

"[bold]Oooh, let's blow shit uuuup![/bold] Oooh, let's have Daenerys fire-bomb a wall! Wait, can ‘fire’ suddenly 'blast' through super-thick brick fortress walls? Ah, who cares, let's just blow more shit UP! Wait, did we write in a convincing character progression? Ah, who cares, let's BLOW shit up! Wohoo! Let’s have Daenerys chase after kids and roast them too! [bold]Wait, did we include enough explosions? Write MORE explosions in! Yeehaw! I’ll think we’ll get an EMMY for this!”.[/bold]

We already saw that [bold]B&W have an unstoppable hard-on for BIG-ASS explosions[/bold] (when they had Cersei simply blow up the Sept and her own city, instead of finding a cunning, underhand way to deal with the priests, which would have been more in-character for a snake-like person like her.)

So B&W’s storyboard for the last few seasons (6-8) looks something like this: “Setting (inherited from Martin’s books): Medieval-type era, mimcking 15th C England. Action & Character Development (B&W’s narrative contribution): Cersei - explodes shit up! Daenerys - blows shit up! The End. Now, where’s our EMMY!”.

Trying to re-watch previous seasons to archeologically dig up some kind of sliver of motivation is pointless. Because "motivation-schmotivation" - [bold]B&W wanted to BLOW shit up in bombastic, non-stop EXPLOSIONS in the penultimate episode! And the only way they could achieve that is by turning the Daenerys character (who's the ONLY character with ability to create Explosions via her dynamite-dragon) into a moronic Michael Myers with a flame-thrower, chasing after & blowing up pig-farmers and chimney-swipes, instead of Cersei.[/bold]

In B&W’s ‘vision’, they had a “cool-teenager” idea for an explosion-filled CGI ending - and they were going to twist around all characters in a way that would get them to that Green-Screen, Mission Impossible-style ending:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 500August 1, 2019 9:33 AM

^Oops, ignore the bold formatting. Let’s try this again:

R499, [bold]the real reason[/bold] why B&W re-wrote Daenerys as idiotically chasing around after trivial cheesemongers & potato-farmers (instead of Cersei, her actual important foe) in the penultimate episode is simple:

[bold]B&W had a huge-ass budget - and they wanted to blow it all on some 'cool, explosive' CGI visuals. But 'Cool', as in the immature-teenage-gamer kind of way, not in a mature-adult narrative writer way.[/bold] B&W are both almost in their 50s, but speak, act, think and, most importantly, WRITE (original content) like teenagers:

[bold]”Oooh, let's blow shit uuuup![/bold] Oooh, let's have Daenerys fire-bomb a wall! Wait, can ‘fire’ suddenly 'blast' through super-thick brick fortress walls? Ah, who cares, let's just blow more shit UP! Wait, did we write in a convincing character progression? Ah, who cares, let's BLOW shit up! Wohoo! Let’s have Daenerys chase after kids and roast them too! Wait, did we include enough explosions? Write MORE explosions in! Yeehaw! I’ll think we’ll get an EMMY for this!”.

We already saw that [bold]B&W have an unstoppable hard-on for BIG-ASS explosions[/bold] (when they had Cersei simply blow up the Sept and her own city, instead of finding a cunning, underhand way to deal with the priests, which would have been more in-character for a snake-like person like her.)

So B&W’s storyboard for the last few seasons (6-8) looks something like this: “Setting (inherited from Martin’s books): Medieval-type era, mimcking 15th C England. Action & Character Development (B&W’s narrative contribution): Cersei - explodes shit up! Daenerys - blows shit up! The End. Now, where’s our EMMY!”.

Trying to re-watch previous seasons to archeologically dig up some kind of sliver of motivation is pointless. Because "motivation-schmotivation" - [bold]B&W wanted to BLOW shit up in bombastic, non-stop EXPLOSIONS in the penultimate episode! And the only way they could achieve that is by turning the Daenerys character (who's the ONLY character with ability to create Explosions via her dynamite-dragon) into a moronic Michael Myers with a flame-thrower, chasing after & blowing up pig-farmers and chimney-swipes, instead of Cersei.[/bold]

In B&W’s ‘vision’, they had a “cool-teenager” idea for an explosion-filled CGI ending - and they were going to twist around all characters in a way that would get them to that Green-Screen, Mission Impossible-style ending:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 501August 1, 2019 9:39 AM

The Daenerys character was just a throw-away pawn in B&W's teenage-wet-dream goal to cram as many 'cool CGI' explosions into the final episodes as possible.

Here is basically their 'storyboard' for the penultimate episode in a nutshell:

(the ash-blonde character is this computer game is basically Arya, dodging fire-balls like a medieval Tom Cruise)

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 502August 1, 2019 9:47 AM

R500, I agree with everything you said except this:

"We already saw that B&W have an unstoppable hard-on for BIG-ASS explosions (when they had Cersei simply blow up the Sept and her own city, instead of finding a cunning, underhand way to deal with the priests, which would have been more in-character for a snake-like person like her.) "

Fuck YOU! The Sept of Baylor blowing up was AWESOME!!!

But not just in an explosions-are-cool way. The whole sequence was brilliantly directed, a lovely slow build of gorgeous-looking suspense becoming unbearable, and then knocking us out of our seats with the big blow. It's one of the most tautly directed and gripping sequences the show ever had! Plus, it was brilliantly character-driven, with the clever Margarey catching on and the High Sparrow not, and Cersei herself living up to her father's pronouncement that "You're not as clever as you think you are". The whole point of the thing being more brutal than clever is that what she really is - she's not someone subtle and brilliant like Tyrion and Tywin, she's very intelligent but super-intelligent, and likes to turn to brutality because she doesn't understand subtlety. Or consequences, her other mental weakness is that she doesn't care enough about other people's feelings to understand how they'll react to her actions.

by Anonymousreply 503August 1, 2019 3:41 PM

R503, having a character blow up part of King's Landing once - fine. Having then another character blow it up (TWICE now) - became an obsessive pattern by the writers. It reveals that they think the easiest solution to reach a narrative "shocking" resolution is by blowing shit up.

It was exactly the wild praise they got for this Sept scene that likely prompted B&W to try the SAME thing for Daenerys. Like: "Oooh, who would have thought Cersei would blow up her enemy (the Religious Clergy), ALONG with her OWN daughter-in-law and other innocents! Such a cool TWIST!". And then same written for Daenerys: "Oooh, who would have thought Daenerys would snap due to wartime PTSD and blow up her enemies in King's Landing, along with innocents! What a TWIST!".

That is what B&W were obviously going for, after getting praise for the Cersei twist. Blowing things up worked for them before & became a fan hit - so they tried it again at the end.

by Anonymousreply 504August 1, 2019 5:24 PM

Daenarys has always enjoyed what her dragons could do. At first when they were small it was finding and cooking their own food, than toasting her captor, moving on to executing a master, torching some ships.

Of course they were going to raze a city. I was looking forward to King's Landing getting barbecued since season 1. It was always gonna happen.

For an "unstoppable hard on for explosions" how do you account for the nearly 7 season delay til they really made it count. That Blackwater Bay explosion paled in comparison to the Sept going out and knocking off so many characters.

No, they really liked the stabby, stabby, stuff.

by Anonymousreply 505August 1, 2019 5:51 PM

[quote] Daenarys has always enjoyed what her dragons could do. At first when they were small it was finding and cooking their own food, than toasting her captor, moving on to executing a master, torching some ships. - Of course they were going to raze a city.

R505:

(1) “What her dragons could do” - was actually bizarrely (and without ANY explanation) CHANGED in the penultimate episode. FOR 7+ SEASONS, even when the dragons grew up, her dragon’s fire could only BURN an object (like a regular flame-thrower). But in the penultimate episode, suddenly her dragon’s fire could BLAST (like a modern dynamite explosion or nuclear missile) through King’s Landing’s THICK BRICK fortress and citadel walls. LOL. When did that “power upgrade” happen? :)

It’s obvious B&W inserted those inconsistent, inexplicable, eyeroll-inducing scenes (that broke previous narrative continuity about dragon fire) just to make their EXPLOSION scenes more ridiculously “Mission Impossible” “kewl”.

(2) Regarding her “enjoyment”: Ok, let’s see. So she chases after milkmen & nursemaids and immediately barbecues newborn babies for nothing - but in the next episode when Tyrion publicly INSULTS her & basically spits in her face (in front of her whole army, no less!), by throwing away his loyalty pin - she... just puts him in prison, to await her decision?! Why is she even waiting then, wasn’t she MERCILESSLY and IMMEDIATELY torching INFANTS just seconds ago? It’s B&Ws inconsistent & lazy writing. If she “enjoys what her dragons do” - then she should have barbecued him on the spot for embarrassing & challenging her in front of her troops. But B&W re-wrote Daenerys' character in Season 8 in such a contradictory, confusing way that even her actions in the final episode don't match her actions in the penultimate episode.

by Anonymousreply 506August 1, 2019 9:41 PM

[quote] Of course they were going to raze a city ... It was always gonna happen.

Also, R505, you don’t “raze” the Capital City of a nation that you plan to STAY and rule. It’s nonsensical & something only teenage-minded writers like B&W could come up with. You only “raze” foreign cities that you plan to LOOT and then quickly ABANDON and return to your HOME city. It’s clear that Martin read Medieval history books to inspire & prepare his storyline, to make events more logical (judging by how he paralled the War of the Roses events & characters, etc) - whereas B&W obviously never opened a history book.

Example from modern history: when Hitler conquered France - he didn’t just “raze” the capital city, Paris. When Stalin (Dzhugashvili) conquered parts of Germany, he didn’t just “raze” East Berlin. Why? Because you do NOT burn down the MAIN City of the country you plan to rule. Even Hitler understood such a basic conquest principle (which B&W don’t): If the conquering army plans to STAY in the country, they need the Capital City to remain a functioning administrative & supply centre: they need the buildings to stand - to station & house their troops; they need the food stocks in the city undamaged - to FEED their army stationed there; etc.

But what imbecility did they write for Daenerys? She destroyed half the city’s infrastructure and damaged the rest. But it’s WINTER. WHERE are her troops going to sleep? (Most of the roofs were blown off). WHAT are they going to EAT? With much of the population dead, WHO is going to cook it for them?

Example of “razing” a city: the Vikings “razed” many nearlying villages. But only because their entire PLAN was to quickly loot those places and then sail BACK HOME. And when you “raze” a city - you always LOOT it first, before destroying it - for valuable food and supplies (because your army will need those things to survive). And you DON’T stay in that city, you don't sit on that throne. Because staying in a burning pile of cigarette-ash, even for a few days or a week, is ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 507August 1, 2019 9:46 PM

[quote] For an "unstoppable hard on for explosions" how do you account for the nearly 7 season delay til they really made it count. That Blackwater Bay explosion paled in comparison to the Sept going out and knocking off so many characters. No, they really liked the stabby, stabby, stuff.

What “7-season delay”, R505? “Blackwater” was almost end of Season 2. (That is one of the few explosions in the first 4-5 seasons, which followed Martin’s storyline more closely and even had Martin as CO-SCREENWRITER. Then, starting from ca. Season 6, B&W started inventing their OWN storyline - and, with their hands fully untied, they started cramming in MORE EXPLOSIONS to compensate for a weak plot). The Battle of Meereen (with Meereen exploding from fire attacks, and Daenerys just standing there like an idiot as fireballs almost hit her, not even taking cover) was Season 6, Ep. 9. “The Winds of Winter” (explosion of the Sept) was Season 6, Ep. 10. “The Bells” (ridiculous "Mission Impossible"-style explosions in KL) was Season 8.

Ergo: B&W REALLY like explosions. That (and the desire for 'kewl CGI scenes') drives their whole narrative.

by Anonymousreply 508August 1, 2019 9:51 PM

"It was exactly the wild praise they got for this Sept scene that likely prompted B&W to try the SAME thing for Daenerys."

OMG, R500, you're absolutely right!

Only, when explosions were used earlier it was both awesome TV, and absolutely in character. When Tyrion used wildfire to take out most of Stannis's fleet it was authentically character-driven, because Tyrion is the most intelligent and creative mind in Westeros, and while he normally dislikes violence, he'll fight like a sewer rat if you back him into a corner or invade his city. So we totally believed that Tyrion would do exactly that, under those circumstances. And when Cersei had her turn at being backed into a corner, she totally failed to think of a brilliant solution, because we all know she's not as intelligent as she thinks she is... and she came up with something brutal, effective, and with horrific long-term consequences she didn't foresee. And we completely believed that she'd do something vicious and fail to foresee how Tommen and the Tyrells would react, because we knew how mean and thoughtless she could be.

And yeah, they tried to do something similar with the Battle of King's Landing, and completely botched it. They'd established Danerys as a ruthless but highly effective military leader, and then they had her frying Fleabottom while Cersei stood there untroubled. The rushes may have looked cool, but it was so ridiculously out of character that all a person could do was groan.

by Anonymousreply 509August 1, 2019 10:19 PM

Well, where to start.

Kings Landing is the first time a dragon attacks a building. They attack ships in Mehreen which burn and shatter at times. So Drogons "power upgrade" occurred about that time. Your argument is that Drogon never was able to blow up a building before, but as you see it's a specious argument.

"Nearly 7 seasons", you left out the "nearly". I mentioned Blackwater Bay which took out a few ships, only killed Mathis, an insignificant character and didn't stop Stannis' invasion. Who gives a shit about burning a fleet when it's already arrived, would have counted for something it's was done at Dragonstone It's only interesting because it's green. Yeah Mehreen 6/9. Sieges usually have burnings objects but they weren't really explosions they were impacts.. Maybe a gun powder barrel here and there. Probably in the Euron takes Yara and Ellaria scene there was a minor explosion or two..

So it took them 6 seasons and 10 episodes to give us an explosion really worth a damn. An explosion so well executed it took 20 minutes to lay it on us. And it wiped out soooo many characters. SOB, Margery! And caused a King to suicide. Come on! We ALL LOVED that explosion. So 4 episodes out of 77 with an explosion. Hardly enough to describe as "driving the whole narrative" That's some hyperbole you got going there.

As for razing a city, look up Mongols/Baghdad. Daenarys was always threatening to raze cities to the ground. KL was where she let her blood lust loose. Who fed the army when they were marching to KL? Armies know how feed themselves from the countryside.

by Anonymousreply 510August 1, 2019 10:34 PM

Oh, and modern armies don't usually raze a city because it takes a great deal of ordinance to do so. Daenarys didn't have that problem. KL was where Cersie ruled from Dany could rule from anywhere she chose. Dragonstone, anyone?

Oh and those non razed cities and WWII. Did you forget Hiroshima Nagasaki Dresden.

Again there was no indication that Dany would choose to rule from KL. She was intending to conquer the world.

by Anonymousreply 511August 1, 2019 10:52 PM

R506 said: [quote]“What her dragons could do” - was actually bizarrely (and without ANY explanation) CHANGED in the penultimate episode. FOR 7+ SEASONS, even when the dragons grew up, her dragon’s fire could only BURN an object (like a regular flame-thrower). But in the penultimate episode, suddenly her dragon’s fire could BLAST (like a modern dynamite explosion or nuclear missile) through King’s Landing’s THICK BRICK fortress and citadel walls. LOL. When did that “power upgrade” happen? :)

Did you forget Harrenhall? In that instance they melted the stone. They're Dragons in a fantasy world. Do we need to explain the concept of fantasy.

by Anonymousreply 512August 2, 2019 1:20 AM

R512, you don't seem to be too familiar with the Harrenhall back-story yourself. It took the LARGEST dragon there was (Balerion - far bigger than Drogon) to melt Harrenhall. And - exactly - they MELTED it with fire (which makes sense: intense heat SLOWLY melts stone). They mention cracks forming, but they did NOT BLOW it up with fire, like some kind of Nuke missile.

And "the concept of fantasy" still needs internal logic and CONSISTENCY. If, after almost 8 years of the show, you suddenly change things at the very end (just to cram in an "epic CGI shot") - it cheapens the narrative.

[quote] "Aegon flew Balerion high above Harrenhal, before plunging down upon Harrenhal, burning the castle beneath him. All that was FLAMMABLE, both supplies and ironmen, caught fire within the castle, while Harrenhal's stone towers cracked and MELTED. The rivermen outside observed that the towers glowed and MELTED like candle."

Did King's Landing "melt like a candle"? No - it bizarrely got blown to smithereens as if the dragon was a nuclear missile (even though in all the 8 years of the show, this was NEVER manifested).

by Anonymousreply 513August 2, 2019 2:02 AM

R510, B&W’s amateurish writing makes no sense. I know it and I’m sure you’re intelligent to know it too. Benioff previously totally screwed up the ending of Homer’s “Troy” and he screwed up the ending of Martin’s GoT too. He’s only where he is because he’s the son of one of THE most powerful bankers in the world. Benioff has been ‘failing upwards’ for most of his screenwriting career.

[quote] Kings Landing is the first time a dragon attacks a building. They attack ships in Mehreen which burn and shatter at times. So Drogons "power upgrade" occurred about that time. Your argument is that Drogon never was able to blow up a building before, but as you see it's a specious argument.

And were the navy ships made of FORTIFIED SUPER-THICK STONE? No. Wooden ships are going to burn anyway. If you attack a wooden ship with a gigantic flame-thrower - the wood will burn and perhaps shatter from the pressure of the fire-stream. But THICK STONE?

Listen, if dragon-fire is [italic]so[/italic] explosive that it can “nuke” through a GIGANTIC FORTIFIED Medieval stone wall (in the penultimate episode) - then the scene (in the very next, final episode) where the dragon simply ‘stylishly and artistically’ “melts” the Iron Throne makes ZERO sense. The dragon was obviously enraged and released its anger on that chair :). [bold]If dragon-fire can DYNAMITE-BLAST through a BEHEMOTH STONE WALL - then that much-smaller, human-sized Throne would have been BLASTED out of that Throne Room like a torpedo all the way to China/Essos[/bold] :)

And remember all those enemies executed by dragon-fire? If dragon-fire were so powerful - those people would NOT burn like effigies, instead their SKELETONS would shatter like from a nuke missile.

I also remember the scene (in Season 8, Ep. 3 “Long Night”) where Jon Snow HIDES from (enemy) dragon fire BEHIND A ROCK. So dragon-fire can’t even blast / melt a single rock - but then 2 episodes later in can blast through an entire extra-thick fortification of stone!

As I said, this sudden “power upgrade” makes no sense (apart from allowing B&W to indulge in “kewl” Rambo-style explosions in the penultimate episode). And even if we accept this out-of-the-blue, unexplained power surge in the penultimate epidose - in the next, final episode this power comically ‘disappears’ again!

I don’t care what “magical skill” the writers invent. But it should have at least some internal logic and conistency, and not just suddenly pop up for one episode as a lazy, convenient Ex Machina device - just to cram in some CGI dynamite-explosions.

by Anonymousreply 514August 2, 2019 2:04 AM

[quote] "Nearly 7 seasons", you left out the "nearly" … So it took them 6 seasons and 10 episodes to give us an explosion really worth a damn. An explosion so well executed … And it wiped out soooo many characters … So 4 episodes out of 77 with an explosion. Hardly enough to describe as "driving the whole narrative" That's some hyperbole you got going there.

R510, and you left out the CRUCIAL detail that the first seasons were driven mostly by Martin’s books & storyline (who wasn’t obsessed with explosions and preferred political intrigue & strategy instead). While the final seasons were driven by B&W’s own (basically fan-fiction) storyline - and [bold]they compensated with explosions, to mask the often embarassing weakness of their script, and the fact that they don’t have even a remote understanding of how to write intelligent Medieval-type battles[/bold]. E.g. when they put Trebuchets OUTSIDE of the city walls (in the Battle of Winterfell, ep. 3), it became clear that B&W don’t have neither basic battle logic, nor even an ordinary person’s common-sense.

So there’s not point vieweing the 8 seasons as some sort of continuum by B&W as ‘creative’ writers. Because it’s not: the initial GoT storyline (while Martin was still hands-on involved) and the subsequent one (where B&W penned their own ‘original content’ / fanfiction) are 2 very different beasts.

When you take that into account, my point stands: when B&W gained creative-writing control (and started penning original/fanfic content, not just an adaptation) - the number of over-simplistic CGI explosions, as ‘final solutions’ to character conflicts, increased.

And it did drive the narrative - they wanted Arnold Schwarzenegger-type explosions in the end. And they weren’t at all interested in exploring the psychology behind it: was the character clinically mad? Schizophrenic? Simply cruel? Those questions were neither explored nor answered. All we got was “Boom! BOOM!”.

by Anonymousreply 515August 2, 2019 2:06 AM

[quote] I mentioned Blackwater Bay which took out a few ships, only killed Mathis, an insignificant character and didn't stop Stannis' invasion.

You’re actually proving my point, R510. The script for that episode (Blackwater) was written by Martin directly. And he wrote it as closer to real-life logic. He didn’t have over-simplistic explosions that just swiftly & boringly won the entire war for a character (like B&W lazily wrote in the pre-final). Martin showed that orchestrating explosions will not necessarily guarantee an immediate military victory. The explosion weakened Stannis’ fleet and the army had to do the rest.

And I don’t quite understand your narrative complaint - you wanted the explosion to just “stop Stannis’ invasion”?? Like, *poof* and done? Just like that, the end, confrontation over? But that would be boring & over-simplistic in terms of DYNAMIC military tactics. That’s not Martin’s style generally.

[bold]The ‘poof and done’ strategy is more up B&W’s alley.[/bold] Like the silliness they wrote for the Battle of King’s Landing. [bold]Tell me, what was the point of Daenerys’ army even taking part in that battle?[/bold] Her whole army and Northern allies were pointless. [bold]They could have all just stayed back in their camp and played cards, gave each other blow-jobs - while she could win the entire battle all by herself, lol.[/bold] She took out the enemy fleet, the castle’s tower garrisons, etc. [bold]There was NO POINT for her to even drag her army south if all she needed was her dragon. Boring and lazy screenwriting.[/bold]

[quote] Who gives a shit about burning a fleet when it's already arrived, would have counted for something it's was done at Dragonstone

Well, that’s how many wars & sieges go. One side takes a defensive position / higher-ground (usually advantageous, because defenders have protective castle fortifications & know the surrounding area well). And the other side takes an attack position (which is usually less advantageous, because you don’t have walls to shield you if things go south).

by Anonymousreply 516August 2, 2019 2:23 AM

"I also remember the scene (in Season 8, Ep. 3 “Long Night”) where Jon Snow HIDES from (enemy) dragon fire BEHIND A ROCK. So dragon-fire can’t even blast / melt a single rock - but then 2 episodes later in can blast through an entire extra-thick fortification of stone! "

To be fair, Jon was being attacked by the zombie "ice dragon" with the blue flame, which may have been super-cold rather than super-hot, rather than the healthy fire-dragon. Or maybe the blue dragon-fire was just a different color, who knows, it was never specified. But my point IS, that the two dragons in question had different types of flame, so it's entirely possible that the rocks would react differently to the two kinds of fire.

Really, IMHO the whole issue of dragon fire is the least of season 8's problems.

by Anonymousreply 517August 2, 2019 3:10 AM

R517, Fair point about Viserion. But Drogon always had the power to burn & melt people and objects. But blow up objects, like a detonation device?? If so, then why didn't the people he fired at previously in the show "blow up" too?

Ironically, I think this is one of the biggest underlying problems. Because by introducing this "sudden super-power" - B&W became incredibly over-excited, like teenagers, about focusing the whole ending on THAT ("Oh, look, so kewl - a dragon who's breathing not fire, but ballistic missiles!"). They spent more camera time on Drogon mindlessly firing at things, and Arya mindlessly running away from Drogon, than on Daenerys' face or psychology, or Cersei doing something.

Because of that "sudden super-power", narrative & dialogue fell victim to CGI.

by Anonymousreply 518August 2, 2019 3:50 AM

Dude, Stannis' fleet was there so they could drop off some their army to attack on the seaward battlements in order to penetrate the Red Keep and also to engage the royal fleet. But the royal fleet wasn't there because of Tyrion. Tyrion screwed over Stannis in that he blew up a couple of ships but it was Tywin and Loras who won the battle. I'm just saying it was a pretty explosion but it didn't actually accomplish much. It was Martin who decided that, he liked the idea of green greek fire, not B&W. When they designed an explosion using wildfire they gave us a great one. Wildly suspenseful. Not as visually interesting but it sure accomplished a lot for Cersie. No one but you is going to criticize that scene.

Dude, different rock and stone reacts differently to heat and fire. Ask anyone who has made a camp fire from the wrong kind of stone. BAM! Run! Exploding campfire rocks suck when it's dark and you're drunk and stoned. And no tower is stronger than the mortar used in it. Dany destroyed the ornamental features, the showy Hand of the Tower, the upper dwelling areas. She took the frosting off the cake so to speak. She didn't take out Meagor's Holdfast she just effed it up a bit .The rest of King's Landing was tile, and stucco over wood frame and some stone. Yeah a good heat with enough breath force would be a kind of explosion.

You bring your whole army because you prepare for all contigencies. She clearly made her decision late in the game. Her blood lust won out.

And you don't know diddley about dragons. They have different rates of burn appropriate for the task. Venemous reptiles and snakes will parse their venom often delivering dry bites at first and then upping the dose on subsequent bites. Martin followed already established fantasy dragon rules when he included them. I see someone else commented on the blue flame plus Viserion was severely damaged and had little control over his flame with his jaw being ripped off and all and his flame coming out different places. He wasn't his dragon best.

Finally, we were told right from the get go that the Iron Throne was forged with DRAGON FIRE and if you didn't anticipate that a dragon might take it out, then you got no place telling anyone about storytelling. By season 7 it was so fucking obvious that the throne was not a prize but a curse within this story, it's hard to believe people thought otherwise. But yeah, even being warned, people thought there be a "winner".

by Anonymousreply 519August 2, 2019 4:04 AM

[quote] By season 7 it was so fucking obvious that the throne was not a prize but a curse within this story, it's hard to believe people thought otherwise. But yeah, even being warned, people thought there be a "winner".

R519, oh please, of course there was a winner. House Stark: Bran became King and Sansa became Queen. The fact that a symbolic chair got destroyed didn't change ANYTHING. They were still MONARCHS = RULERS over everyone else.

I love how people think B&W's hilarious ending was so 'deep' by destroying some chair. That chair (along with the whole throne room) could have crumbled to the ground during the Battle - and no one would give a heck. (Btw, they re-wrote Daenerys as such a dunce that she didn't even check where she was firing during her attack - she could have easily accidentally destroyed the Throne Room and that chair would be lying underneath 1,000 tonnes of rubble forever.)

It wasn't about the "chair" - it was about the CROWN. The TITLE (King / Queen). And the POWER. And Bran got ALL that. He WON the game. The End.

The cha

by Anonymousreply 520August 2, 2019 4:19 AM

R520 You are as deep as a puddle.

by Anonymousreply 521August 2, 2019 4:33 AM

And you are very naïve if you bought B&W's childish, sappy story-ending, R521.

I love how Benioff (whose family became multi-millionaires by being economic advisors to Dubya Bush; head of the Federals Reserve Bank; one of the heads of Goldman Sachs, etc) is trying to create some kind of childish story about how the Throne is a curse. It's not a curse - it's life. There will always be Power Figures and they will always jostle for power. That's how his family got its huge fortune and why he was raised on 5th Ave.

Monarchs, Presidents, Autocrats - it's all a game of thrones. It's not about some chair - it's about POWER. It's human nature.

And to say that that is a curse is the same as saying a lion pride is "cursed" for fighting for dominance.

by Anonymousreply 522August 2, 2019 4:57 AM

[quote] As for razing a city, look up Mongols/Baghdad.

Mongolian leaders (Khans) & their main army almost never stayed in any city they conquered, R510. They were NOMADS and usually conquered cities just to LOOT them and then move on. They weren’t interested in RULING anyone as a King (like Daenerys). They weren’t interested in “thrones” - they just primarily wanted MONEY.

So the example of the Mongols actually supports my point: you only “raze” an important capital city if you have NO INTEREST in staying in that country and RULING there.

But Daenerys wanted to rule Westeros - she didn’t want to just conquer it, impose a tax and piss off back to the Essos desert :). That’s why KL should have been an important Base for her, not a city to just burn. B&W re-wrote her as very silly.

[quote] Oh and those non razed cities and WWII. Did you forget Hiroshima Nagasaki Dresden.

Did you forget those were not national Capital Cities, but smaller (less important) cities with military arsenals? Did the US “raze” the capital, Tokyo? No. Did you forget that when the US bombed Hiroshima/Nagasaki - the US NEVER wanted to RULE over Japan? Same with Dresden - the Allies had no interest in RULING in Dresden.

So there’s a difference between a war of CONQUEST where you genuinely want to RULE over a country - and a war of destruction / revenge where you just want the opponent to die or to go away, so you can go home yourself. For example, when Norman king, William the Conqueror, marched on London - he didn’t “raze” London. Because he didn’t want to destroy England, he wanted to RULE it.

[quote] Oh, and modern armies don't usually raze a city because it takes a great deal of ordinance to do so.

Modern armies don’t raze cities because the world expects them to follow the Geneva Conventions. If they don’t, the whole world can turn against them.

The Germans and the Soviets (heck, even the Brits) could have easily razed capital cities if they had wanted to. Ordinance was not a hurdle. But they mostly understood that preserving national capitals was important - for convenience.

by Anonymousreply 523August 2, 2019 5:25 AM

She wasn't sticking around. She ended up hating Westeros. Her armies hated Westeros. Her dearest loved ones hated Westeros. Yeah she finally got to touch the throne (girl was goal oriented) but even if she didn't burn it on day one of the attack she wasn't going to rule there. She had the rest of the world to capture.

The Mongol Rulers weren't nomadic at that point. They had captured their empire and were collecting taxes and tribute. They destroyed Baghdad because the Islamic caliphate was resisting and not paying tribute. So the entire city had to go, to wipe out Islam there. And so they did and then they left people behind to rebuild. And that took centuries.

Looting was how the army got paid. That was the system all over mainland Europe and beyond. Even villages and towns not sacked were looted as an army passed by.

William didn't have to raze London because his enemy wasn't there. Harold caught up to him in Hastings. William didn't make it to London until after he was king. Another specious argument, He did however harry the north and wasted estates and towns there.

Medieval cities were often razed because that's were the ruler was at the time or that's were the strongest resistance was. And ordinance is very much an issue, you can't burn everything down especially if you're retreating. Those bridges have to be blown up.

Capitals would change with conquerors. London wasn't always the capital. Colchester and Winchester preceded London as capitals because of their regimes. Shit France had 4 capitals just during WWII, but even more throughout it's history. Tours, Versailles, Orleans. Berlin wasn't a capital until 1871 and Bonn was the capital of West Germany.

You just make shit up. It's all very superficial as if you watch John Greene videos. Drink some Vichy water.

by Anonymousreply 524August 2, 2019 6:40 AM

"She wasn't sticking around. She ended up hating Westeros. Her armies hated Westeros. "

Oh bull. She'd spent her whole life firmly believing that ruling Westeros was not just her job and her destiny, but a fulfillment of her duty to House Targaryan. She was one hell of a goal-focused person, and would never let her personal feelings interfere with her belief that she needed to rule Westeros. Even if she hated Westeros, she'd have spent her life ruling the place, it was her inheritance from her father and she considered it to be her duty. And Westeros's duty to obey her.

by Anonymousreply 525August 2, 2019 7:34 AM

[quote] Dany could rule from anywhere she chose. Dragonstone, anyone?

R511, Dragonstone was dark, morbid and mostly deserted by S8. It would be a miserable choice of a capital for ruling.

Her own father ruled from King’s Landing (which had all the international fame and infrastructure of a capital, plus the important "national union" symbol of the Iron Throne).

[quote] She was intending to conquer the world.

So? The Roman Empire conquered the whole Mediterranean - but they still had a fixed capital: glorious Rome, the centre of Western civilisation. The Colonialist British Empire conquered ca. 1/4 of the world - but the capital always remained: famous London. Why? Because fixed capitals are important - as a symbolic and infrastructural SEAT of power.

[quote] Daenarys was always threatening to raze cities to the ground.

“Always”? Did she threaten to raze Winterfell? Yara’s Iron Islands? Olenna’s Highgarden? No.

Btw, Tyrion also threatened to poison King’s Landing, saying Stannis should have conquered the city and killed them all.

[quote] Who fed the army when they were marching to KL? Armies know how feed themselves from the countryside.

What countryside? WINTER is here :). Even the dragon was covered in an avalance of snow! Most crops don’t grow in winter. And all the countryside folk would flee with all their livestock, as soon as they saw their capital, King’s Landing, burning in the distance.

This is the hilarious part - they conquered one of the RICHEST cities in the Kingdom (with food, water, wine, horses, grain, everything). But instead of allowing her troops to enjoy it - Daenerys BURNED most of it :). They re-wrote her as a dunce (well, actually they re-wrote almost all characters as dimwits).

How did they feed during the march? Travel stock, from Winterfell possibly and villages they went through on their march. But that’s a FINITE resource - huge marching armies usually re-stock by using the city they conquered. So at the end of their exhausting march and battle, instead of enjoying their conquest - her army will have to chaotically go on a wild goosechase after fleeing peasants for provisions. Or they’ll have to wait, starving & cold, while food from one of Daenerys’ allies arrives (which can take weeks).

This reminds me of Napoleon’s (disastrous) march on Moscow: he conquered the capital and thought he’d re-stock and rest there. But to his shock and dismay: the Russians self-destroyed (sabotaged) all the supplies and burned their own city - so that Napoleon’s army would starve and freeze. And then Winter Came. It was a TRAP. Napoleon thought he was getting a thriving capital, but all he got was a burned-down, frozen hellhole, without any way to immediately reward & feed his multi-thousand army:

[quote] "Moscow was the goal of Napoleon's invasion, but the deserted city held no czarist officials and no great stores of food or supplies to reward the French soldiers for their long march. Then, just after midnight, fires broke out across the city, apparently set by Russian patriots, leaving Napoleon’s massive army with no means to survive the coming Russian winter."

by Anonymousreply 526August 2, 2019 9:50 AM

[quote] She wasn't sticking around. She ended up hating Westeros. Her armies hated Westeros. Her dearest loved ones hated Westeros .... You just make shit up. It's all very superficial as if you watch John Greene videos. Drink some Vichy water.

Calm down, R524.

And it’s ironic that you accuse me of “making shit up” - while you claim unsupported things like “she ended up hating Westeros”. She NEVER said that. And, logically, why would she hate “Westeros”? The Iron Islands, Highgarden, Dorne - they all welcomed and supported her. Even some in the Northern army ignored Jon Snow’s orders to retreat and instead followed Daenerys’ lead in battle.

What, just because - bohoo - she didn’t get a standing ovation from Cersei and Sansa (2 bitchy females) and some frigid Scotsmen way up north, she suddenly “hated all of Westeros”? Westeros is a continent - a HUMONGOUS one, to boot. It’s like landing in Brazil and instantly proclaiming “I HATE the South American CONTINENT” :).

What throws many people off is the childish line that B&W concocted for Daenerys: “I have no love here”. Jeez, it’s like they’re writing a “teenage-angst-Emo” script for Twilight :). And “here” where? KL? And how did Daenerys know? She didn’t even bother MEETING the local regular population even once. That’s the hilarious part of the B&W’s silly script.

And WHERE did she ever get “instant” love? The Dothraki, who wanted to throw her in life-long prison? The Meereenese slaves, who didn’t give a heck about her (until she started handing out benefits to them)? This was already covered in R409.

The MAJORITY of Essos didn’t “love” Daenerys either. The powerful city of Braavos (Iron Bank), located in Essos, even funded Cersei against Daenerys. Daenerys faced more initial, automatic distrust in Essos, than in Westeros :).

by Anonymousreply 527August 2, 2019 11:30 AM

[quote] The Mongol Rulers weren't nomadic at that point. They had captured their empire and were collecting taxes and tribute.

Yes, they [italic]were[/italic] nomadic, R524. The Battle of Baghdad was ca. 1258. During the same period (13th C), they were running around & conquering e.g. most of Eastern Europe. They were nomads, chaotically scattered all over the place. Did they stay in Europe (e.g. Russia) and actually RULE there? No. As you said, they MOSTLY just imposed a tax and said they’d be back in e.g. 3 years to collect the “debt”. They didn’t even bother appointing their own clansman to rule Eastern Europe. They did NOT write most local laws / legislation there. They did NOT even impose their own culture, language or religion on Eastern Europe.

As you said - they mostly only cared about collecting “debts”. [bold]As long as you paid them off (with money $$$) - the Mongols didn’t give a heck what you did on your land.[/bold]

And that’s why Baghdad was attacked - it refused to PAY UP. [bold]The Mongols were not rulers, in the traditional sense of the word - they were RACKETEERS. They operated like the Mafia - show up, beat you up, and tell you you “owe” them MONEY now.[/bold] Whereas Daenerys wants to be a MONARCH, an actual ruler (she had formal audiences with her subjects, listened to ther grievances, legislated new laws, etc).

And that’s one of the main reasons why the Mongol ‘empire’ crumbled so relatively quickly. The foundations and infrastructure of their ‘empire’ was incredibly shaky - because they didn’t bother actually ruling the lands they stampeded. Their strategy was more “hit-it-and-quit-it” :).

[quote] “The [Mongol] invaders … built for themselves a capital [on the OUTSKIRTS of Europe], called Sarai …. Here the commander of the Golden Horde, as the western section of the Mongol empire was called, fixed his golen headquarters … The Mongol or Tatar "yoke", suggests terrible oppression, but in reality these NOMADIC invaders from Mongolia were not such cruel, oppressive “task-masters”. In the first place, they NEVER SETTLED in the country, and they had LITTLE direct dealings with the inhabitants. [bold]In accordance with the admonitions of Genghis Khan [himself] to his children and grandchildren, they RETAINED their PASTORAL mode of life, so that the [the peasants, city dwellers, etc who were under their arms-length yoke] were NOT disturbed in their ordinary avocations”.

by Anonymousreply 528August 2, 2019 11:39 AM

Couple things stand out as I re watch. After Dany burns down the Dosh Kaleen, and takes over the Dothraki, she is having a conversation with Daario and he tells her she is no ruler. She is a conqueror and there in lies the difference.

THe other thing is when she is first encamped at Dragonstone, on the stormy night when she and her allies are discussing strategy for taking King's Landing, she tells Varys and Tyrion that she doesn't feel at home there, and Tyrion makes some throwaway comment abut her not being there long, because soon shed be in King's Landing.

The other thing I saw was that Dany had always been the savior, the rescuer, and the downtrodden, ordinary,people, and the freed slaves celebrated her as their liberator. They adored her. But once she crossed the sea, and came to Westeros, she was greeted with curiosity and suspicion.

Now she felt confident that she'd win them over, until she went North. Then she saw a real family in the Starks, and she saw how much people loved the Starks and now, Jon. She began to realize she didn't fit in, and she started to show how insecure she was, and the more insecure she felt, the haughtier and colder and more rigid she became. The more being acknowledged as "the Queen" meant to her.

It was especially obvious after the Battle for Winterfell. Even Arya admitted they needed Dany and her Dragons, etc, but Dany was not part of the circle of warmth and fellowship during the celebration. The gratitude they showed was almost perfunctory. Jon got all the love. And there was that one seen a little later when she said to Jon, THey love you. I don't have their love. So fine. Let them fear me." Or something like that.

But even with all those markers, IMO, the storytellers failed to effectively transition her to madness. She was against destroying the city of Kings Landing for most of Season 7. Later, After the Battle of Winterfell, Yes she lost Jorah and Missandei. She couldn't get any comfort from Jon who she was now suspicious of.

But the stupidity of burning down the capital city, killing the inhabitants was, among other things, an immensely foolish, stupid move. And that final scene with it's business as usual attitude, when they choose Bran, and then have their small council meeting, is illogical and unrealistic. I felt like the series could have minimized some of the damage if they'd simply ended it with Drogon flying off into the sunset with Dany's dead body clasped in its talons.

by Anonymousreply 529August 2, 2019 12:10 PM

[quote] Capitals would change with conquerors. London wasn't always the capital. Colchester and Winchester preceded London as capitals because of their regimes. Shit France had 4 capitals just during WWII, but even more throughout it's history. Tours, Versailles, Orleans. Berlin wasn't a capital until 1871 and Bonn was the capital of West Germany.

R524, Capitals only change when it makes strategic and, most importantly, economic sense. Because in the ancient world some cities (gradually) rose with trade, eclipsing previous trade cities. People didn’t just swap capitals for the hell of it.

If you plan to invade e.g. Britain - you wouldn't burn down London (with all its WEALTH and resources) and make some more trivial city like Liverpool (or, heaven forbid, Blackburn :) your new capital, just for the hell of it.

Economic aspect: King’s Landing is not only the capital, but also the largest city in Westeros.

Symbolic aspect: [bold]Daenerys’ claim to the throne is via her family bloodline - the Targaryen Dynasty ruled exactly from King’s Landing for almost 300 YEARS. Even the city’s [italic]name[/italic] is derived from Daenerys’ main Royal ancestor (the Founder of her Royal Dynasty) landing there and becoming King of Westeros there. The Targaryens were the ones who built this city: King's Landing was founded by King Aegon I Targaryen, King of the Andals and the First Men.[/bold]

The city is her INHERITANCE. Her family BUILT it. The Baratheons & Lannisters - were just temporary usurpers for a handful of years. Daenerys owns that city, it’s hers by birth right.

So Daenerys destroying her OWN precious inheritance city was bizarrely spitting in the face of her own parents and throwing away her ancestral legacy. It makes no sense. She might have not cared about the people there - but the city itself was supposed to be her glorified PRIZE. Getting back what was taken from her.

But Benioff & Weiss wrote some kind of hissy-fit for Daenerys, where she broke her own parents’ castle-toy like a toddler. It’s just silly.

As for ruling from Dragonstone - even her ancestors didn’t want to do that, because it’s strategically a bit far. Dragonstone is an island, it’s not even on the mainland. It’s like trying to rule the United States from the island of Puerto Rico :).

by Anonymousreply 530August 2, 2019 12:48 PM

[quote] Jon got all the love. And there was that one seen a little later when she said to Jon, THey love you. I don't have their love. So fine. Let them fear me.

Good points, R529. But regarding that entire "public love" angle that B&W concocted - it just doesn’t quite make sense. Think about it: WHO the heck loved Jon in the South? The only people who “loved” Jon were: the North & Wildings (suprise-surprise), and deserters from a few other clans (Tyrion, Theon Greyjoy, etc) and… who else?

Westeros is comprised of 7 Kingdoms: the North (Winterfell), the Vale (The Eyrie), the Stormlands (Baratheon land), the Reach (Highgarden), the Westerlands (Lannister land), the Iron Islands, and Dorne. Plus, the Crownlands (King’s Landing administrative region for governing the union). Out of all these 7 regions - how many even really know who “Jon Snow, Ned Stark's bastard” is, never mind “love” him? I bet the people of KL wouldn not give a heck about Snow - he never even visited that area before.

The scene where Daenerys is ‘envious’ - but of what? The speech in Jon’s honour was given by TORMUND :). What, she desperately wants some trivial (semi-barbarian) WILDING to “love” her? Why does she even care what Tormund says - he’s literally a nobody, no better than a peasant, from some remote northern backwater.

by Anonymousreply 531August 2, 2019 1:59 PM

R531, IMO, Dany wanted to be celebrated. She wanted GRATITUDE she sees herself as a Savior and no one was acknowledging that.....at least not nearly enough. She took all the accolades and celebrating for Jon as love. The fact is, Jon had earned the love and respect of the Wildings and the camaraderie in the hall the night of the celebration was something Dany envied. Jon is a natural leader who inspires loyalty. He does it by being self effacing to a fault. He doesn't crave power unless it's a means to getting something done, fixing something. She has been an outsider all her life and treated brutally by her only sibling. Remember the first speech she gave to Jon and Davos? She catalogued all the injustices and brutality and concluded with I saved me. I did it. It was my determination and strength that got me this far. That was an important speech. It spoke to how she saw herself and how she internalized her experience of the world. Jon may have had similar though maybe less extreme situations and felt the outsider, but his way of earning his place in society was different from hers. She wants to achieve greatness. She wants to be on top. Jon just wants to fit in and he wants to serve. It is hardwired into him. HE feels like he has to earn respect and he believes the way for him, his path is to serve. And I'm also recalling that little talk Jaime had with Euron. "They might be cheering you now, but two months ago they were slinging shit at you." ...or something like that.

by Anonymousreply 532August 2, 2019 3:00 PM

Daenerys might want gratitude, but the way B&W (mis)wrote Season 8 - Daenerys didn't actually DO that much for the North. She did NOT kill the Night King. She did NOT defeat the White Walker army. Yes, she made sacrifices - but she would have to eventually fight the White Walker army anyway, so it was self-preservation.

If anything, it was the other way round - [italic]the North[/italic] saved Daenerys. Because her army (Dothraki, Unsullied, even her dragons) were clearly no match for the White Walkers' zombie army. Arya & Bran (Northerners) saved Daenerys' LIFE, not the reverse.

So it's by far not the same situation as in the Slaver Cities (Meereen, Yunkai & Astapor) - where Daenerys actually did save the population from slavery. So it's a bit jarring that B&W re-wrote her as expecting "gratitude" in Winterfell - she was the one who was ultimately saved, not the other way round.

by Anonymousreply 533August 2, 2019 3:33 PM

[quote] William didn't have to raze London because his enemy wasn't there. Harold caught up to him in Hastings. William didn't make it to London until after he was king. Another specious argument

R524, William’s enemies WERE in London. He didn’t have just ‘one’ “enemy” (Harold) at the Battle of Hastings - he had enemies (plural) in the cities too (the Clergy, Nobility and, most importantly, OTHER local dynastic contenders for the Crown). Thinking Harold was his only enemy is over-simplistic. Because once Harold died - the Nobility simply proclaimed and rallied around a substitute (English) Heir in his place.

In 1066, London was still THE focal point of Anglo-Saxon Resistance. The deadliest battle was over - but the war for the Crown wasn’t. The local English population (including Londoners especially) weren’t pleased at all with the prospect of having an invading Norman like William as King. That’s why, despite William’s victory at Hastings, the locals refused to surrender immediately and declared another person King (which pissed off William). So he marched on London to secure his claim:

[quote] “[Anti-Norman] Resistance was being organised within the city [of London] by Eadwine, Earl of Mercia, and Morcar, Earl of Northumbria. The figurehead around whom this resistance rallied was Edgar Aetheling, great-nephew of King Edward the Confessor.”

William could have razed London - because London was culpable of fawning the flames of Resistance against him. But London surrendered and William didn’t raze it.

Why? Because he NEEDED London - he needed this important city’s economic, symbolic & religious power. That’s why he even went to crown himself in London’s Wesminster Abbey. He didn’t just “raze” the Abbey and burn it down.

Lol, but if Benioff & Weiss were writing the ‘creative’ screenplay for this: they’d probably have William just moronically burn down London and Westminster Abbey - ya know, simply because the locals didn’t “luuuve him” enough and didn’t welcome him with open arms :)

[quote] He did however harry the north and wasted estates and towns there.

The North of England was harried because, unlike London and Winchester, etc they generally refused to surrender. Even after his Coronation as King in London, William still had to fight for 5 years against the northern region, which refused to acknowledge him as king:

[quote] “The Conqueror would have to struggle for 5 more years - winning battles against rebels in the north of England … before he completely controlled his new realm.”

by Anonymousreply 534August 2, 2019 3:38 PM

[quote] Calm down, [R524].

You are hilarious. This coming from the one with all the capitalization and the bolding. Projection anyone? You really, honestly think that none of this was Martin's ending? That this was entirely D&D. No, dear this was the ending that Martin gave them.

Dorne supported her? High Garden? No Ellaria, made a deal but got captured before she could get back to Dorne and implement it. They were in the wind. The Reach and High Garden were under Lannister control. The Iron Islands were in the middle of a coup and Euron still had the fleet. The North could barely tolerate her presence. They were in it for the Starks. Ellaria and Olenna didn't love Dany, the were vengeful opportunists. And when did Dany have any interaction with Braavos. Are you saying that the Iron Bank loved Cersei? Were they dating?

Did you miss that the long winters were done? Did you miss the leaves on the trees at the Dragon Pit? Did you miss the plant growing beyond the wall as they left Castle Black. Did you not ever consider that a blizzard didn't roll in during that attack and that was ash falling on King's Landing. Like in "Queen of the Ashes."

I get it. You were one of those guys who squealed over everything Dany did for 8 years. You are heart broken. SOB!!! How could they have done this to her! Dany, a fictional character, DESERVED BETTER!!!

God, I could go on about how many of the early Targs ruled from Dragonstone and why weren't you worried about how the Dothraki fed themselves in the deserts and how Dany is a conqueror not a ruler and blah blah blah but none of that will help you with with your all encompassing grief. You're in the anger stage, eventually you'll reach acceptance. Psst, don't seek comfort in Star Wars.

I predicted the throne would be destroyed, I saw Dany dead at the end (I also thought Jon would die) and realized it was not an awesome love story. So I'm pleased as punch with this gruesome fiery, bloody ending.

Heh, my favorite character was the gorgeous CGI jet bomber known as Drogon! And Davos.

by Anonymousreply 535August 2, 2019 3:50 PM

[quote] they’d probably have William just moronically burn down London and Westminster Abbey

See this is indicative of how shallow your knowledge and research is. Westminster was the center of government, it being a separate city from London. London was wharves and old roman streets and markets. And the resistance was pathetic. William was more interested in Winchester where the money was.

by Anonymousreply 536August 2, 2019 4:06 PM

"Dany could rule from anywhere she chose. Dragonstone, anyone?"

Ruling from Dragonstone would have been severely impractical, it'd have been much more difficult to keep in contact with the seven kingdoms and the aristocracy from there... at least without a fleet of dragons to make communication with the mainland and subsidiary rulers easy. Really, there were very few places Danerys could have ruled from, almost all of Westeros was the traditional territory of one of the seven great old families, and putting a new capital in one of their territories would have created problems with the other six (and possibly the seventh, if they didn't want a new capital city on their lands). No, The only place Danerys could have ruled from were the "Kingslands" around Blackwater Bay, and there was only one city there.

And as someone else pointed out, THAT CITY WAS FOUNDED BY HER FAMILY AND WAS HER INHERITANCE. And her whole quest to become queen was because of her family, her primary motive wasn't as much lust for power as a desire to defend her family's holdings. And that's why she would have stayed on as queen even if she hated Westeros and felt unloved there, she came from the sort of people who don't let their personal feelings interfere with their duty.

by Anonymousreply 537August 2, 2019 6:41 PM

Dragonstone was the location that carried emotional weight for her. Remember the scene when she lands and touches the sand. She was born there. It was the first home of her family. Her ancestors conquered Westeros from Dragonstone and ruled from there orginally.

Her father was killed in Kings Landing. It had the stink of the Lannisters and the Baratheons all over it. It's where her family went mad. Her closest friend perished on it's ramparts. She never expressed any sentiment towards that location other than the Iron Throne. And that's a movable item. Nope. Had to go. And it did. Yay.

She could rebuild for the commerce, the docks were still functioning. Call it Queens Landing. Rule from Dragonstone where communication is just as easy as it is from KL.

Or go to Oldtown (Paris) and build a Versaille like estate. Drogon would love it there. Turn KL into Liverpool, the busiest port in the world.

by Anonymousreply 538August 2, 2019 7:15 PM

But none of that could happen because JON SHANKED HER MID KISS!

Awesome.

by Anonymousreply 539August 2, 2019 7:30 PM

"Dragonstone was the location that carried emotional weight for her. Remember the scene when she lands and touches the sand. She was born there. It was the first home of her family."

Oh for fuck's sake! Dragonstone Island was barren, nothing grew there, it's all in the books. It could never sustain anything more than a small population, because all food had to be shipped in or fished out of the sea, which would make it totally impractical for a monarch's seat of power. A king's court needs to be in constant contact with the rest of the kingdom, be able to house a huge number of administrative and working staff, be able to accept noble/royal visitors in the style in which they had become accustomed, and not be the kind of military target that can be easily besieged or cut off from the mainland with a decent fleet. It would also totally cut her off from the people of Westeros, which is something she wouldn't do; in Mereen she spent all fucking day listening to the pleas of anyone who cared to walk into the palace, it was her policy to stay in touch with the common people that way and to take their please seriously. Remember when she chained up her dragons because a peasant shepherd approached her that way?

So what if Danerys had feelings for the place. Monarchs don't let personal feelings dictate where their seat of power lies, not if they have a few functioning neurons to rub against each other. Danerys was a very smart person, smart enough to know that sitting on the Targaryan Iron Throne in King's Landing would give her a much stronger political position than moving the seat of power to Dragonstone and isolating herself from the population. So shut up about torching King's Landing and moving the seat of power to Dragonstone, that's an indefensible position.

by Anonymousreply 540August 2, 2019 8:32 PM

Can we take a break from all of the bickering a second to appreciate that the Emmys website had to pull the finale script, because everyone was taking the piss out of it. It read like two frat boys turning in an end of term paper after staying up all night to finish it. Boy, was HBO’s and GRRM’s trust in Benioff and Weiss misplaced!

by Anonymousreply 541August 2, 2019 8:42 PM

No wonder Isaac Hempstead Wright thought the final script was a joke.

Did they really write "How the fuck did this happen?" in regards to Tyrion becoming the hand? You guys are the writers, I would have hoped you would know the answer to that! The term cringeworthy is overused but that script really was cringeworthy in every way.

by Anonymousreply 542August 3, 2019 1:29 AM

My personal favorites:

Why Drogon burned the throne - "We look over Jon's shoulder as the fire sweeps toward the throne-- not the target of Drogon's wrath, just a dumb bystander caught up in the conflagration."

After Bran says that he'll try to find Drogon - "That's weird. But so is the new king."

Tyrion as hand - "He sits in the Hand's chair. How the fuck did this happen? How the fuck did he end up here, alive, with power he no longer wants or believes he deserves?"

by Anonymousreply 543August 3, 2019 12:26 PM

Too bad. Benioff and Weiss are an embarrassment.

I distinctly remember the conversation Dany had with Varys and Tyrion at Dragonstone when she said it did not feel like "home." etc and they said "don't worry you won't be here too long ."

by Anonymousreply 544August 3, 2019 1:48 PM

You know it's too bad the covers are being ripped off because the show was pretty much spectacular. Yes. The ending was shit. The final scenes. Tyrion as hand, Bran a king. And there were other flaws or paths I disagreed with. But for 8 seasons, that series gave me more pleasure than pain, and it was very well cast, well acted and the direction was masterful. As for the special effects, any time you're telling a story about fire breathing dragons, and war, you're gonna have special effects. So they may as well invest some money in making them look good.

by Anonymousreply 545August 3, 2019 2:55 PM

R545, Yes. Though the show’s writing went progressively down the drain far before the final scenes - as soon as B&W started writing their own ‘fan-fiction’. E.g. the Season 7 plot of Jon & Daenerys going South to meet Cersei (asking her for a silly ’truce’, even though they already destroyed most of her forces), then going back up North to capture a Zombie for her, then going back down South to show it to her… So much contrived back-and-forth sudden ‘teleportation’ travel, which was very un-GoT-like.

Forbes and other publications noted this way back in 2017:

[quote] Forbes: “Season 7 … the good moments were too often offset by [bold]strange writing decisions, perplexing character choices, and a sense that the overall quality of the show took a steep nosedive[/bold] … from a distance, it all kind of works. [bold]If you take a closer look, however, everything starts to burst at the seems. The details never quite add up[/bold]

[quote] So we not only have the problem with fast travel/teleportation, we have a show that trades careful plotting for a series of loosely tied-together plot points … they achieved this with [bold]next to no subtlety[/bold].

[quote] Martin's prose was sorely missing … [bold]Many of the show's best scenes and best lines of dialogue were taken directly from George R. R. Martin's A Song Of Ice And Fire books. This season [7], more than any other, we feel the absence of his prose.[/bold]

[quote] What did we get in the supply train battle? [bold]A big dragon and some fire. Dothraki killing Lannisters.[/bold] Jaime and Bronn narrowly escaping death. [/bold]No incredible conversations, no big character moments or revelations, no intrigue.[/bold]

[quote] The [quote]heavy-handed, ham-fisted way they went about this storyline is a new low for the show[/bold].

They were talking about escalating script problems in Season 7 here - but they might as well have been describing Season 8 (though it exceeded expectations by being even more badly written).

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 546August 3, 2019 5:42 PM

[quote] Boy, was HBO’s and GRRM’s trust in Benioff and Weiss misplaced!

The writing was on the wall about Benioff being a hack screenwriter:

Benioff co-wrote the screenplay for “Troy”, which was panned by many critics. He was very loosely adapting and condesing Homer’s “Iliad”.

Roger Ebert said: “The movie “Troy” sidesteps the existence of the Greek gods, [bold]turns its heroes into action movie CLICHÉS and demonstrates that we're getting tired of CGI armies[/bold].” Rotten Tomatoes said [bold]the critic consensus was that it lacked “emotional resonance”. [/bold]

Ironically, that pretty much describes Seasons 7-8 of GoT too. A lot of mindless fighting (without even smart or common-sense military strategy), not enough intelligent dialogue or logical consistency. Even though GoT’s original claim to fame was exactly as a slow-paced political intrigue thriller, mixed with fantasy - so good, convincing dialogue should have been essential. Complex characters from the first seasons (based on Martin’s text) are suddenly warped into cliché and one-dimensional, lobotomised parodies: one of the characters turns into a stock stereotype of Hitler and gives a generic Hitler speech - a trope so overused it’s now become synonymous with lazy writing.

The final “plot twist” was surpisingly lazily written: Tyrion simply tells Snow to assassinate his cruel beloved (giving away the “plot twist”) and - right in the next scene - Snow just obediently goes and does it. With minimal words or dialogue. Where’s the intrigue in that? Where’s the narrative tension? It’s all very perfunctional, almost mechanical. Many fans said they couldn’t feel any “emotional resonance” during the assassination scene. I don’t blame them.

After “Troy”, Benioff went on to co-write “X-Men Origins: Wolverine” - an even worse critically received film :). The Rotten Tomatoes aggregate consensus said: [bold]“A cliché-ridden script and familiar narrative”. The critics noted that “there's little creativity evident in the way blanks are filled in” in the script and that the writers were “suffering from imaginative fatigue”.[/bold]

Benioff redeemed himself for a while (thanks to Martin’s legendary nuanced text), but after he lost that crutch it seems he reverted back to his old ways.

So basically the signs were all there before: Benioff had 3 major projects now and all of them suffer from the same thing - lack of plot creativity and cliché, cartoony characterisation.

by Anonymousreply 547August 3, 2019 6:05 PM

"After “Troy”, Benioff went on to co-write “X-Men Origins: Wolverine” "

Oh GOD, that was the movie explains a faked death by saying "...they gave me hydrochlorothiazide to slow down my heard rate". Hydrochlorothiazide is a DIURETIC, all it does is make you pee!

So yes, Benioff is responsible for the single most hilarious script flub of the new century, one that makes me laugh until I weep every single time I hear it, because if anyone at any level of production had done a two-second google search or tiny fact check it wouldn't have made it into the finished film. And he went on to have Danerys spend half an hour torching residential neighborhoods while Cersei her real enemy stood out in the open catching flies. Dayam.

by Anonymousreply 548August 3, 2019 7:12 PM

You know, as I think about the 3rd episode, the Battle for Winterfell, I have to ask They knew where the Army of the Dead was. So once Dany brought the dragons North why could there have been forays, like quick raides to go after them and burn up a few thousand. THin their ranks? And why didn't they use pitch. How come Jaime left Kings Landing without any pitch? They could have spread it all over the ground approaching Winterfell, let the zombies get close then light them up. I thought the way they fought them was dumb. The Dothraki were the only unconventional fighters and that's what you needed. Not soldiers in formation. They needed brawlers who'd slash them and burn them.

by Anonymousreply 549August 3, 2019 8:22 PM

Yes, the whole storyboard for the Winterfell 'battle plan' (if it can even be called that) lacked even a regular person's common sense. As usual, B&W sacrificed logic - just so they could cram in some "kewl-looking" scenes. Putting trebuchets (giant catapults) [italic]in front[/italic] of the castle walls? The whole point of castle walls is to protect / shield you, while you're operating trebuchets from the inside, etc. Otherwise, if you leave catapults outside of your walls, they can be captured by the attacking army and quickly destroyed or even used [italic]against[/italic] your own castle walls!

They had a defensive wooden trench line (which they finally lit up on fire - and that thinned out the Wights a bit). But they put the Dothraki cavalry and most of the Unsullied infantry, again, [italic]in front[/italic] of that defensive line! It’s almost like they [italic]wanted[/italic] the Unsullied and Dothraki to die, left out in the open like sitting ducks :).

The point of a stone wall or a fire trench is to protect most of your army - the point is not the reverse, for your army to protect a fire trench or a stone wall :). If you have a castle wall, etc and you’re taking a defensive strategy (because the attacker is very strong) - then use those defence tools / fortifications to the max: fit most of your army inside the castle, squeeze as many of them on top of the wall as you can, packed shoulder-to-shoulder - and let them rain non-stop fire on the attackers as they struggle with the fire-trench and the wall.

The only force that can be left outside the wall is the cavalry. But when your attacker’s entire strategy is to overpower by sheer super-dense volume (as Snow & Daenerys should know from their previous encounter with the Night King) - cavalry should try charging not head-on (suicide), but maybe from the flanks. E.g. let the attackers approach the fire-trench / castle wall, and then pincer them from the sides. So that the attacker is trapped between a burning trench / wall and a counter-attack from 3 sides: from atop the castle walls, and from the flanks.

Obviously, with an army that can raise the dead that’s all futile, and you just need 1 Arya to save the day :). But at least that way the defence plan itself would be logical.

by Anonymousreply 550August 4, 2019 8:28 AM

[quote] No, dear this was the ending that Martin gave them.

R535, you accuse me of “making shit up” - and then go on to “make shit up” like this yourself :). Ah, the irony. You have no self-awareness, whatsoever. This is the “ending” Martin gave them? Oh, really?

So Bronn becomes Master of Coin (the Minister of Economy / Taxation / State-Budget for all of Westeros)? Jon kills off Daenerys - while her loyal-to-a-fault Unsullied just shrug their shoulders ‘meh’ and go back to Essos? Daenerys burns down her own Targaryen-built city in a childish hissy-fit? Tyrion and Snow agree together to bump off a monarch - but Tyrion is rewarded for this plan (being given the 2nd most powerful position in the country), while Snow is punished (with exile) for this same exact plan & for following Tyrion’s own instructions?

This script makes no logical sense. It has many trademarks of Benioff’s infantile, chaotic, cartoonish imagination. The same ‘screenwriter’ who made a total mess of Troy’s ending. Or are you going to tell me Homer told Benioff that eyeroll-inducing ending too?

Jon Snow (potentionally Azor Ahai) can square off against Daenerys in the books, in a Targaryen vs Targaryen personal stand-off - but Daenerys clumsily burning down her own inheritance city is NOT necessarily part of Martin’s ending.

[quote] Projection anyone? […] I get it. You were one of those guys who squealed over everything Dany did for 8 years. You are heart broken. SOB!!! How could they have done this to her! Dany, a fictional character, DESERVED BETTER!!!

[quote] blah blah blah but none of that will help you with with your all encompassing grief. You're in the anger stage, eventually you'll reach acceptance. Psst, don't seek comfort in Star Wars.

Again, you fail at self-awarenesss, R535. You accuse others of “projection” and then PROJECT your OWN kindergarten-sandbox rhetoric and thinking on others. The fact that you resorted to Strawmanning is a telltale sign that you have weak debating skills and are just over-emotionally triggered that other posters challenged your hilarious defence of B&W’s moronic script:

[quote] Strawman Fallacy: Substituting a person's actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.”

Btw, ironically, it’s you who keeps talking about Daenerys as if she’s a real person: “her blood lust “won out” ”. No, nothing “won out” - the writers had various available options for this character and they decided to move this character one way, instead of the other way. Characters are like puppets in the hands of their writers. And characters can only be as logically consistent as their writers (which in B&W’s case is not very).

by Anonymousreply 551August 4, 2019 9:01 AM

[quote] I predicted the throne would be destroyed, I saw Dany dead at the end (I also thought Jon would die) and realized it was not an awesome love story. So I'm pleased as punch with this gruesome fiery, bloody ending.

Lol, well [italic]smell[/italic] her! R535, I’m sure you also predicted the Teletubbies’ cartoon ending :). You “realised” that an aunt and nephew screwing and 69-ing is not an “awesome love story”? Congratulations, Einstein. I’m glad you had enough half-brain cells to “realise” that simplistic truism.

Obviously either Daenerys or Snow would have to die - HBO would not end a series with an incestuous couple ruling the world (that’s too much, even for HBO :).

And, yes, it’s already becoming clear that you’re ‘very easily pleased’ and care mostly about “gruesome and bloody” [italic]over-simplistic[/italic] cartoonish narrative resolutions. Boom! Blast! Shank! The End :). And everyone lived ‘happily ever after’ with an All-Knowing Elected King in the South, a Wise Queen in the North, and a Council filled with good-natured, merry men - as a suddenly ‘enlightened’ shift to semi-democratic ‘constitutional monarchy’. And all the ‘bloody’ characters (Unsullied, Dothraki, Daenerys, Cersei, Jaimie, Drogon, Littlefinger, etc) were either vanquished or agreed to just peacefully leave the Westeros continent :). Jon was sent up north, but he never wanted to be King anyway, he already lived as a monk previously and preferred Wildings over southerners anyway. Happy Ending for All! [bold]This script reads like a Disney CARTOON[/bold], which is probably why you like it so much :).

GoT was designed as a political intrigue drama, with a splash of fantasy. The books are the medieval version of House of Cards, with mysticism thrown in. But Benioff & Weiss turned it into some Nazi-parody Mission-Impossible-style cartoon. And the fact that you praise their amateur fanfiction suggests you have the same thinking as Benioff & Weiss (who are now the laughing stock of Hollywood for their embarassing, childish script).

[quote] Heh, my favorite character was the gorgeous CGI jet bomber known as Drogon! And Davos.

Then the joke is on you, I'm afraid. B&W [italic]lobotomised[/italic] your “favorite” characters and made them braindead or cowardly. Davos' IQ was dropped to lukewarm temperature when he offered Greyworm (and the Unsullied) his own “dynasty house” with “land in the Reach”. What, so that the Unsullied can smilingly ‘settle’ next to the Crownlands population, whose children they just massacred?

The “gorgeous CGI jet bomber, Drogon”? Lol, ironically, they turned him into a de-clawed pussy-cat in the end. Drogon discovered his maternal figure dead, but just put his tail behind his legs and scrammed like a harmless alley cat. The Small Council then only remembers him almost as a casual after-thought (weeks / months later), as if he's some toothless, unimportant creature.

by Anonymousreply 552August 4, 2019 9:14 AM

[quote] Dorne supported her? High Garden? No Ellaria, made a deal but got captured before she could get back to Dorne and implement it. They were in the wind. The Reach and High Garden were under Lannister control.

R535, Dorne and the Reach were both scewed over by the Lannisters. It’s logical for the houses there to support Daenerys’ claim over the Lion Clan’s claim, who just screwed them over.

And who cares if they were temporarily “under Lannister control”? By the end of the Battle of KL - most of the Lannisters were DEAD. So they were freed from Lannister control.

[quote] Ellaria and Olenna didn't love Dany, the were vengeful opportunists. And when did Dany have any interaction with Braavos. Are you saying that the Iron Bank loved Cersei? Were they dating?

Who cares whom the 7 Kingdoms or Ellaria / Olenna / the Iron Bank [italic]“loved”[/italic]? It seem you swallowed [bold]Benioff & Weiss’ infantile, Disney-cartoon narrative about “love” - hook, line & sinker.[/bold] The point was that many in the 7 Kingdoms didn’t support the Lion Clan and/or didn’t even know who the heck “Jon Snow” is. So the whole ’Snow is the People’s Princess and that sparks envy’ narrative was incredibly contrived. He was mostly popular (or even known) only in the North. As written, most of Westeros (especially the South) didn’t give a heck about him.

If the screenwriters had given Snow at least something strategically successful to accomplish in the Battle of Winterfell - like killing the Night King, then maybe it would be justified. But they gave Arya the ‘feminist’ glory of killing the Night King, so Snow was pointless.

As for the Iron Bank - this is another screw-up in Benioff & Weiss’ moronic script. Why would the smart bankers of Braavos support Cersei over Daenerys? They knew Daenerys had dragons - the odds were monumentally in her favour to win. Why would they lend a huge sum of money to the [italic]losing-odds[/italic] side in a civil war (and thereby lose all that money investment, as a bad debt with no Cersei left alive to repay it)? Answer: because B&W often lack any care for logic, and therefore many of the characters they write don't have any glimmer of logic either.

by Anonymousreply 553August 4, 2019 9:41 AM

[quote] Did you miss that the long winters were done? Did you miss the leaves on the trees at the Dragon Pit? Did you miss the plant growing beyond the wall as they left Castle Black. Did you not ever consider that a blizzard didn't roll in during that attack and [bold]that was ash falling on King's Landing. Like in "Queen of the Ashes.”[/bold]

R535, why are you trying sooo hard to defend this indefensible, moronic script? You’re grasping at straws by this point. [bold]Benioff & Weiss themselves wrote in the script it was SNOWING in the city, not just “ash falling”:[/bold]

[quote] those scenes where we wondered if the Throne Room was covered in ash or not? Turns out it was SNOW according to the script. This is on Page 15: “Dany stands in the Throne Room … The SNOW falls lightly through the collapsed roof as she steps past the pillars, down the central aisle. Rubble from the fallen roof is visible on the floor, covered in a layer of SNOW.”

And “leaves on the trees at the Dragon Pit”? “Did you miss” yourself that that was obviously long after the events of the Battle of KL? It was [italic]weeks, maybe even months[/italic] later - because all the Representatives needed time to travel there from different remote areas of Westeros. We were also shown scenes of the KL harbour, bustling again with life, trade and people in colourful clothes, even the Dothraki suddenly peacefully (!) mingling with the locals. As if a mass murder didn’t just happen yesterday. Because it didn’t - for the Dragon Pit scene, etc. they jumped [italic]forward[/italic] in time.

But the original point was that it was silly to write a script about destroying your surrendered city with WINTER still coming. It doesn’t matter if the winter is long or short, a “blizzard” or whatever. What matters is that it’s STILL winter. England has a shorter winter than Canada - so what? A shorter winter doesn’t mean that kings just burned precious food & shelter, like morons.

[quote] why weren't you worried about how the Dothraki fed themselves in the deserts

What “deserts” (plural)? The Dothraki lived in the Grasslands - Martin’s version of the Mongol's Central Asian steppes.

If you’re talking about the singular Red Waste desert - well, that’s the whole point: the Dothraki always feared crossing the inhospitable Red Waste and they barely survived it. Daenerys’ horse died from water deprivation (and was probably eaten). They were hungry, thirsty, dirty with sand - and desperate, sending SOS calls and begging for succour. As said in S2, if it wasn’t for the city of Qarth saving them, they would all have died.

by Anonymousreply 554August 4, 2019 9:52 AM

[quote] God, I could go on about … how Dany is a conqueror not a ruler

R535, B&W wrote that hollow line in Season 6 (spoken by Daario Naharis: “You weren’t made to sit on a Chair in a Palace. You’re a Conqueror”) and you’re now praising it like it’s some kind of Truism. A Conqueror and a Ruler are NOT necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, most Kings & Queens in history were both.

Was e.g. Catherine the Great a conqueror or a ruler? That’s a very over-simplistic way of looking at it - because she was both. She was a German princess who usurped the Russian Imperial throne. She was a ruthless conqueror, who expanded her new Empire, by conquering more & more territory. And she also gradually became an intelligent ruler, but most of her “ruling” (i.e. internal policy) achievements were in older age, not over-night when she became Empress.

As for Daario’s phrase - well, of course he would logically say that, his character was a Sellsword (mercenary) and his JOB was Conquest. As written in that dialogue, he was ADVISING Daenerys to be a Conqueror. Because if she wasn’t - he’d lose his job / main occupation in life.

And that’s exactly what happened - when Daenerys was finally sailing off to Westeros, she told Daario that she needed to be a “ruler” and so may need to broker “alliances with marriage” (and therefore can’t bring him as a lover & mercenary). Daario (in the show version) was very disappointed. Because he [italic]hoped[/italic] that she would be a conqueror (so that he himself would be needed & useful). Without conquest, Daario’s life and work would be obsolete. His phrases were based on his own vested interest:

He said in the show: “I ONLY have 2 talents in this world: WAR and women... Send me to KILL your enemies. ANY enemy, ANYwhere. Let me do what I do best.” … “All rulers are either butchers or meat.”

Daario had a very specific 'I only want war’ angle and he pushed for it hard - which was logical for his profession (mercenary officer / hired killer). But Daenerys told him to stay behind.

by Anonymousreply 555August 4, 2019 11:44 AM

[quote] London was wharves and old roman streets and markets. And the resistance was pathetic. William [the Conqueror] was more interested in Winchester where the money was.

Who cares if it was “pathetic” or not, R535 / R536? The original point of debate was why William didn’t just violently raze London - a city which spit him in the face by declaring a local Anglo-Saxon heir as King instead. You said it was “because his enemy wasn't there.” My point was, no, he had many enemies, including a focal-point congregation in London, regardless of how strong they were. They were obviously his enemies because they were neither his friends / supporters / loyalists, nor were they neutral. They openly declared that another dynastical heir has a better royal claim to the Crown than William does. Whether they were militarily strong or not is beside the point - their declaration that William’s claim is illegitimate was a cardinal, punishable insult (people got executed, quartered and hanged for far less back then).

But William didn’t just raze London to the ground like a dimwit - because it was a strategic trade & supply city that would be useful for him. Plus, it was winter - burning main supply cities made no sense.

At the time of the Norman invasion, London was reportedly THE largest populated city in England (ca. 10,000 inhabitants) and Winchester the 2nd largest (ca. 6,000 inhabitants).

By analogy, KL is the largest populated city in Westeros, rich with supplies for an exhausted, hungry army. Burning it down straight away is a silly script idea.

[quote] Her father was killed in Kings Landing. It had the stink of the Lannisters and the Baratheons all over it.

So what, R535 / R538? Her mother died at Dragonstone from a bloody birth and it had the “stink” of Stannis Baratheon all over it too. [bold]It also apparently had the “stink” of “sulphur” (rotten eggs), as it was a volcanic island that emitted an unpleasant smell, similar to Iceland’s sulphuric hot springs (which smell like farts).[/bold]

[quote] But none of that could happen because JON SHANKED HER MID KISS! Awesome.

It’s “awesome” that the script turned Jon Snow into a cowardly Judas, R535 / R539? The under-hand method of assassination did not suit Snow’s character at all, as he follows a medieval-type honour-code. Stabbing a target while kissing is the same as stabbing in the back - which is not considered honourable. There were no guards around his target (for some ridiculous, inexplicable reason) - he could have used a normal execution method rather than do it laughably under-hand. His target was physically weaker and unarmed. [bold]So contrived & pointless to have a “secret / stealth method” when literally no one else was there.[/bold]

[quote] This coming from the one with all the capitalization and the bolding.

R535, capitalisation and bold format can be used to emphasise the main points in a detailed post - so that’s it’s easier for people to read.

Lol, and you’re using over-emotional capitalisation, so quit being a silly hypocrite:

[quote] “which is why the books HAVEN'T BEEN FINISHED!! …. We ALL LOVED that explosion … SOB … DESERVED BETTER!!! … because JON SHANKED HER MID KISS!”.

by Anonymousreply 556August 4, 2019 2:04 PM

Well, its obvious this thread turned into a 2 person argument - one rational, the other clearly NUTS - and therefore has become garbage, but I will quibble this point: [quote]Yes, the whole storyboard for the Winterfell 'battle plan' (if it can even be called that) lacked even a regular person's common sense. As usual, B&W sacrificed logic - just so they could cram in some "kewl-looking" scenes. Putting trebuchets (giant catapults) in front of the castle walls?

Would the writers have stipulated what the defense line even looked like? They didn't direct the episode. That was Sapochnick. They gave him the battles in S8 specifically because he's great at battle scenes - hence, Hardhome and BotB being in the top 5 GoT episodes of all time (as well as WoW). Sapochnick didn't have much in the script on what that battle at Hardhome would look like, either. The massacre was all his idea. Benioff and Weiss were impressed with what he came up with considering they didn't have a lot written. The same happened for Battle of the Bastards. Sapochnick threw out a lot of the script direction because it wasn't feasible - instead, he and Kit Harington came up with the sequence of Jon being buried under his men and fighting his way out. There will often be ideas in the script that the showrunners demanded - eg, Won Won punching a horse, or a wight bear, etc. but I think the Battle of Winterfell's wonky strategy would have to be placed at the feet of Sapochnick and his team. Don't they have advisors on the show for that kind of historical stuff?

by Anonymousreply 557August 4, 2019 2:23 PM

TV showrunners (B&W) generally have final say over what goes into the final version of the story / scene sequence. B&W are not only the screenwriters, but also the top project-managers of GoT. I'm sure Sapochnik has his own ideas & contributions - but he'd be expected to run his storyboards by B&W first, and get a green light from them. And they're the writers (the brain of the operation). So they're the ones (not the director) who are expected to have a team of historical (or war-strategy writer) consultants on-hand to check against things that are too illogical even for a quasi-medieval series.

Let's say Sapochnik said: "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the Dothraki just galloped directly, head-first into the White Walker army, without even really seeing where their opponent is? It would be such a cool [italic]visual[/italic] shot! Won't make much strategic sense - but I'm just a hired director so my main priority is visual stimulation". Then it's up to the Showrunners to evaluate that suggested storyboard (if they don't have their own) and decide: "It might be a super-cool visual, but from a story PoV it doesn't make much sense. It would suggest that Jon Snow & Daenerys, as commanders, along with all their advisors, have room-temperature IQ - and we can't have that. So let's come up with an alternative sequence."

The responsibility is always on the showrunners. They're supposed to manage the director and check the storyboards, engage consultants, so that everything flows logically. Especially in the Finale Season of a show watched by so many around the whole planet.

by Anonymousreply 558August 4, 2019 3:33 PM

I love this 'stage direction' gem from their reported script:

"Jon and Sansa look at each other. They both failed geography."

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 559August 4, 2019 3:49 PM

Goddamn quote function fucks me over again.

r/freefolk is in meltdown mode and has been since the show ended. Why the hell is anyone bringing hysteria from that thread into here? No wonder this one went to shit.

by Anonymousreply 560August 4, 2019 4:33 PM

R560, it's not about r/freefolk - it's a link to a screenshot of a piece of dialogue from the recently revealed Official Script of S8 Ep. 6. The script was released this week (ca. 1 August), as part of the official Emmy nomination procedure. It made global news headlines this weekend. (And not in a good way, as even industry journalists are laughing at the 6th-grader 'artistic directions' B&W included in the script.)

by Anonymousreply 561August 4, 2019 5:54 PM

Exactly R558 in TV land, directors are not the top dog. Showrunners sit the Iron Throne on every show -points to the Andrea Arnold issue on BLL-

by Anonymousreply 562August 4, 2019 6:00 PM

[quote][R535], capitalisation and bold format can be used to emphasise the main points in a detailed post - so that’s it’s easier for people to read.

[quote]Lol, and you’re using over-emotional capitalisation, so quit being a silly hypocrite:

[quote]“which is why the books HAVEN'T BEEN FINISHED!! …. We ALL LOVED that explosion … SOB … DESERVED BETTER!!! … because JON SHANKED HER MID KISS!”.

Dude, I was imitating you to mock you, to make fun of you. You don't seem to be someone who understands subtext. Or fiction in general. Or the words "inspired by" rather than "factually based". How many times have you used the word logical? Logic is on the back burner in drama. It's clear you are super caught up in logic. I bet you have this all on a spreadsheet.

I blame STEM education, so many geeks are attracted to the fantasy genre but can't separate the two halves of their nerdy little souls. "It does not compute!"

I'm loving this. Sorry to those who don't, but this jackass is funny.

by Anonymousreply 563August 4, 2019 8:05 PM

[quote] Dude, I was imitating you to mock you, to make fun of you. You don't seem to be someone who understands subtext.

Oh, please, R563. When you wrote in caps: “SOB, Margery! And caused a King to suicide. Come on! We ALL LOVED that explosion” - you weren’t imitating me, but clearly expressing your own pyromaniac delight with explosions.

[quote] You don't seem to be someone who understands subtext. Or fiction in general.

Says the person who thinks D&D wrote a good screenplay. Oh dear.

[quote] Or the words "inspired by" rather than "factually based".

What are you even talking about? Homer and Benioff’s laughably cartoonish alternative ending?

[quote] Logic is on the back burner in drama.

Well, clearly D&D (and you) are on the same page on that. My condolences.

[quote] I'm loving this … this jackass is funny.

I’m loving that you get so angry over a normal debate. You’re clearly taking this discussion way too personally. It appears you can't handle being challenged on any random topic, so you resort to unimaginative 'neener-neeners' :).

by Anonymousreply 564August 4, 2019 8:27 PM

Here's the results of a spread sheet on GoT's war crimes in the first 7 seasons. From the Australian Red Cross.

No1 is exactly who you think it would be.

But look at No 2!

She needed a good shanking. From Jon. Mid kiiss.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 565August 4, 2019 8:28 PM

[quote] Here's the results of a spread sheet on GoT's war crimes in the first 7 seasons.

Lol, define a "war crime" in GoT quasi-medieval-period world, R565. Go on.

And for the fun of it - define a "war crime" in 15th C England, which inspired GoT.

You're trying sooo hard to justify D&D's script. Keep on digging :).

by Anonymousreply 566August 4, 2019 8:33 PM

Dude, you really should see someone about all anger you are projecting. Totally mellow here. Sunday afternoon in the rain. Good music.

Dany still got shanked mid kiss by Jon. Nothings gonna change that.

by Anonymousreply 567August 4, 2019 8:35 PM

R567, for the 3rd time now - you lack self-awareness.

Lol, you call me a "jackass" and hilariously think I'm the one with short-temper / anger issues? Chill out.

by Anonymousreply 568August 4, 2019 8:41 PM

quote] Dude, different rock and stone reacts differently to heat and fire. Ask anyone who has made a camp fire from the wrong kind of stone. BAM! Run! Exploding campfire rocks suck when it's dark and you're drunk and stoned. And no tower is stronger than the mortar used in it.

R565 / R519, why are you trying to find such far-out hypothetical ways to defend this screenplay? It’s simply not a good screenplay. No hypothesis can save it.

So your theory is that King’s Landing was ‘accidentally’ or even intentionally built from the “wrong kind of stone” that EXPLODES when it “reacts” with “heat and fire”? So then if (any) attacker (not even Drogon) uses catapulted fireballs against them - their whole defenseive wall will explode? :)

King’s Landing was BUILT by the Targaryens - who should know a thing or two about how to build castle & tower fortifications from “the right kind of stone” that can withstand fire, at least to a better degree than a boy-scout “campfire rock” site :).

They even kept fire-breathing dragons in King’s Landing previously. If all it took was one disobedient, gone-haywire dragon to destroy all their fortifications - the Targaryens could have been dead long ago.

[quote] Dany destroyed the ornamental features, the showy Hand of the Tower, the upper dwelling areas. She took the frosting off the cake so to speak. She didn't take out Meagor's Holdfast she just effed it up a bit .The rest of King's Landing was tile, and stucco over wood frame and some stone. Yeah a good heat with enough breath force would be a kind of explosion.

No, Drogon did not just “destroy the “ornamental” features” and “take the “frosting” off the cake so to speak”. He destroyed a GIGANTIC portion of the King Landing’s main defence wall - he easily blew a hole in it with one puff! Watch the clip below from the 2:15 timestamp. So a fortification Defence Wall is now an “ornamnetal feature”? Or do you think it’s made only from “tile and stucco” - and papier-mâché? :)

It was all very silly and inconsistent. And if Drogon’s ‘power’ is so great - then the people he killed previously should have not merely “burned” like effigies, but instead “exploded” like from a gigantic missile.

[quote] You bring your whole army because you prepare for all contigencies.

Daenerys’ army was virtually pointless in the penultimate episode. The scene below even shows all of them just standing there, with the wind whistling. Boringly, Daenerys won the entire battle by herself, riding Drogon. What’s so interesting about that? Where’s the nuance? Nowhere. Just a giant lizard flying around and having fire diarrhoea - The End.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 569August 4, 2019 8:46 PM

[quote] And you don't know diddley about dragons. They have different rates of burn appropriate for the task. Venemous reptiles and snakes will parse their venom often delivering dry bites at first and then upping the dose on subsequent bites. Martin followed already established fantasy dragon rules when he included them.

[R565] / [R519], where in the show did they ever mention or show that dragons have [italic]vastly[/italic] “different rates of burn appropriate for the task”? They showed them burning things - but they never showed them exploding FORTIFIED STONE before. You can’t just have a massive ‘power skill upgrade’ like this suddenly pop up in the second-to-LAST episode of the entire series. It’s Deus Ex Machina. It’s too late & contrived to ram this into the storyline by then.

And you don’t know what “Dragon rules” Martin “followed” - because he didn’t generally include such over-powered, over-bombastic, simple resolutions like this in his books. His dragons melted & somewhat cracked stone - they didn’t nuclear-missile blast it :). Because then you’re getting away from a Medieval feel - and into a modern WW2 nuke feel.

[quote] [the Battle of the Blackwater’s Wildfire] was a pretty explosion but it didn't actually accomplish much. It was Martin who decided that, he liked the idea of green greek fire, not B&W. When they designed an explosion using wildfire they gave us a great one. Wildly suspenseful. Not as visually interesting but it sure accomplished a lot for Cersie.

But that was exactly the point of Martin’s Blackwater episode: that a “visually interesting, pretty” explosion does NOT necessarily WIN the whole battle & war for you. [bold]That CGI doesn’t win the battle for you.[/bold] ‘Kapow! and Game Over’? That would be over-simplistic.

[quote] Finally, we were told right from the get go that the Iron Throne was forged with DRAGON FIRE and if you didn't anticipate that a dragon might take it out, then you got no place telling anyone about storytelling.

That dragon just blew up a gigantic hole in KL’s Main Wall. If it can do that - then that same dragon would have not simply ‘artistically melted’ the throne, but explosively blown it away (together with any stone it was attached to!) right out of the castle and to the other side of the sea coast :).

by Anonymousreply 570August 4, 2019 8:52 PM

[quote]But that was exactly the point of Martin’s Blackwater episode: that a “visually interesting, pretty” explosion does NOT necessarily WIN the whole battle & war for you. That CGI doesn’t win the battle for you. ‘Kapow! and Game Over’? That would be over-simplistic.

Oh. Game Over! Kapow! Now there's your geekness showing again. Applying video games terms to fiction writing.

So you know exactly what Martin's intention was? The guy who introduced wildfire into the story? He did that because he was making a meta statement about the perils of relying on CGI? Really?

Because I recall the many, many times Martin said that he wrote GoT as a novel because he was frustrated with the budgets and technology restraints of the TV industry in the early 90's. That his imagination was so vast that the CGI didn't exist to tell his story with the glorious detail he saw it in. How grateful he was that he got to see his story unfold using technology that finally caught up to his imagination. (and the money} But you say his introduction of wildfire in the novels in the 90's was a prescient meta comment on the likes of say, Micheal Bay.

No, I say he liked the idea of green greek fire and wanted to see some ships blow up.

He got his wish.

And most likely he was intending to have Dany get shanked by Jon mid kiss!

by Anonymousreply 571August 4, 2019 9:42 PM

R571, you keep missing the point. The Battle of the Blackwater wasn’t all about CGI (military explosions played a smaller role there). The Battle of King’s Landing was. See the difference? And guess which one the majority of people around the world liked more. Surprise, surprise - the one with less hollow CGI & perfunctory explosions, and more attention to plot & character.

For example, Lena Headey, playing Cersei, was in very similar situations in both battles (hoping to escape death in a besieged castle). But she was given exponentially more interesting text & character nuance in the Blackwater Battle. So much so that her performance was praised by many publications. By comparison, with all the CGI eating up all the script-time in the KL Battle - Cersei was left with virtually nothing to do during the battle, boringly staring out the window.

[quote] Oh. Game Over! Kapow! Now there's your geekness showing again. Applying video games terms to fiction writing.

I thought you understood sarcasm? I’m applying the same teenage vernacular that D&D used to describe events in their own silly script: “Jon and Sansa “failed geography” [in high school]”; “Daenerys ‘kinda’ forgot about the Iron Fleet’ “, etc.

Benioff himself said: “I was a huge fantasy geek growing up. I was the dungeon master in my D&D GAME.”

[quote] Martin said that he wrote GoT as a novel because he was frustrated with the budgets and technology restraints of the TV industry in the early 90's. That his imagination was so vast that the CGI didn't exist to tell his story with the glorious detail he saw it in. How grateful he was that he got to see his story unfold using technology that finally caught up to his imagination. (and the money}

A more “vast world … with glorious detail”? What, like Season 8’s pitch-dark, budget-saving Battle of Winterfell (in the the near-finale of the entire series) where you can’t even see half of any “glorious detail”? Or Season 8’s Battle of King’s Landing where Daenerys just torches any “detail” at lightning-speed in a matter of seconds?

Creating a “vast world” does not mean neglecting all the other aspects of the screenplay.

You mentioned Star Wars: well, this was exactly like the Prequels - increasingly more CGI and green screen, increasingly less intelligent dialogue, motivation exploration, emotional resonance, etc. It became hollow.

[quote] And most likely he was intending to have Dany get shanked by Jon mid kiss!

That’s moot. But in Martin’s Azor Ahai prophecy he didn’t “shank” his partner, he used a sword. You can’t surreptitiously “shank” anyone with a big sword. Using a sword suggests a Targaryen vs Targaryen stand-off.

This scene was not as much a reflection on Daenerys, as it was on Jon Snow. Snow’s character, as developed in the show, is extremely honour code-bound, whereas stabbing someone unawares or in the back is not a strategy for an honour-espousing character. Because it’s cowardly and weak - there was no one else there, there was no need for “secrecy”. It’s a method usually reserved for slimy characters. But Snow is not supposed to be a cowardly or weak character. A cloak-and-dagger move is not Snow’s modus operandi.

Also, it’s hilarious how Tyrion & Snow’s plan made no accomodation whatseover for Drogon and the Unsullied & Dothraki’s potential reaction. So they planned to depose the monarch - ok, then what? What if Drogon (a gigantic Godzilla) goes into a rage-filled frenzy after seeing his maternal figure dead - and barbecues the rest of KL? But Tyrion and Snow, in their dialogue, didn’t even [italic]mention[/italic] Drogon once! As if he’s completely unimportant and irrelevant. Their plan was reckless - ironically, it could have resulted in even more catastrophic destruction, with an uncontrollable rage-filled dragon and a horde of foreigners wreaking more havoc as revenge.

And the cherry on top of this silly plan, is that Snow gets punished for it, while Tyrion admits “Jon committed a CRIME” and then gets rewarded. Lol, how was it a “crime” - Tyrion was the one who suggested it himself!

by Anonymousreply 572August 5, 2019 12:17 AM

Jeeze, the repetition with you. Cowardly, weak, Disney, teenager, CGI, Goldman Sachs, Homer,blah blah blah. I suppose at first it might look like like you're focused but now it's beginning to look like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Nice attempt to obfuscate but doesn't change the fact that the memorable set piece in Martin's script is the wildfire explosion. He gives precious little screen time to the actual heroes and winners of the battle Tywin and Loras. And he didn't give us the chain.

What in the blue fuck does Martin's decision to tell his story as a novel way back in the 80's have to do with aspects of Season 8? Martin was talking about being able to create a dragon believably, casts of thousands, hordes of zombies etc. Are you mocking Martin?

You don't world build in the last season. You're in the denouement. You're not doing character development. You're killing off characters and playing out the set up.

And I'm not defending their script. Euron, blechhhhh. I'm just picking on you. I'm just here to tear you down and make your blood pressure rise.

And of course, celebrate that Jon shanked Dany in mid kiss.

by Anonymousreply 573August 5, 2019 2:49 AM

Oh shut up you too!

This was an interesting thread before you started yanking each other's weaves.

by Anonymousreply 574August 5, 2019 4:23 AM

[quote] [bold]I’m just picking on you. I'm just here to tear you down and make your blood pressure rise.[/bold]

[bold]You’re [italic]only[/italic] online for me, R573? Your obsession with me is sweet :). So you admit you’re a TROLL.[/bold] That explains why your language is so immature - you’re just trolling. Thanks for confirming :).

Unfortunately, all you achieved is make your own “blood pressure rise”. The fact that you resorted to calling me a “jackass” means you’re really pressed. I simply asked you to calm down - and that triggered you even more, lol.

I’m on this thread to discuss and gossip about the show & its showrunners. Obviously a troll like you will pop up now & then. But that’s ok, because I find GoT discussions interesting anyway. Your OTT personal emotional drama is not my biggest concern.

[quote] I suppose at first it might look like like you're focused but now it's beginning to look like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

Lol, Says the person who admits he’s [italic]only[/italic] here due to a bizarre obsession with me. “Physician, heal thyself” - check your own OCD before attempting to ‘diagnose’ other people :).

[quote] Jeeze, the repetition with you. Cowardly, weak, Disney, teenager, CGI, Goldman Sachs, Homer,blah blah blah.

Says the person who keeps repeating the same phrases over and over: “Jon shanked her mid-kiss”; “Geeks!”; “bloodlust”! etc. The irony must be lost on you.

I will repeat the following (because you simply don’t get it): you have no self-awareness. You keep making the same mistake over and over: “Rules for Thee, but not for Meee!”.

[quote] Nice attempt to obfuscate but doesn't change the fact that the memorable set piece in Martin's script is the wildfire explosion. He gives precious little screen time to the actual heroes and winners of the battle Tywin and Loras. And he didn't give us the chain.

It’s only “obfuscation” to you because you insist on missing the point: the Blackwater Battle episode was praised by publications world-wide for mixing action AND character. If something was memorable for you - doesn’t automatically mean it was the only memorable thing for others. And that’s why many publications pointed out the great character insight. Whereas, King’s Landing Battle was criticised for mostly focusing only on action: virtually no insight about what's happening in the main characters' minds (Cersei = blank, Daenerys = blank). Ironically, despite all the big budget, this cheapened the narrative.

“The actual heroes of the battle?” Tywin? Just because he showed up at the end and surprised Stannis doesn’t make him a “hero”. There was little “heroic” about Tywin - he SACKED the exact same city, King’s Landing, just some years before, perpetrating the mass murder of infants, as Jorah Mormont remembered in the show. “Heroes” are people who stand up in the face of great adversity, even if they know they’ll die doing it - and that’s Tyrion, Podrick, etc.

And how were they supposed to give more “screentime” to the “winner” Tywin - that would ruin the whole military suspense. If the spotlight were on Tywin’s travel itinerary (and therefore all the viewers, even non-ASoIF-readers, would know he’d rock up at the 11th hour) - that would weaken the emotional tension of the entire episode.

by Anonymousreply 575August 5, 2019 11:30 AM

[quote] You don't world build in the last season. You're in the denouement.

Also, lol, R573 if you don’t “world-build” in the last season - then you don’t suddenly give one solo dragon a new, out-of-the-blue upsurge in power to single-handedly blow up the stone walls of a gigantic city with one puff, as if they were made from cardboard :).

With that kind of ridiculous power advantage, Daenerys then never even needed an infantry, or a cavalry, or navy ships - she could have just just used her dragons to fire-bomb all of Westeros all by herself. The End.

[quote] You're not doing character development. You're killing off characters and playing out the set up.

No, in such an intricate political drama like GoT, characters are written as making alternative decisions way up until the end - so they need nuanced character development and ongoing, continuous character [italic]insight[/italic] to justify those decisions and make them believable. It's called a character arc, not a character half-arc, half-flatline.

This isn’t Rambo - you don’t just kill off the main characters and that’s it.

Why was Jaimie portrayed earlier as caring about the populace of King’s Landing - and then suddenly declaring ‘I never cared about KL’ in S8? What changed? Where’s the character insight to explain this turn? Nowhere.

B&W jumped characters’ view positions from Point A to Point B, without presenting enough (or sometimes even any) insight to make it convincing.

[quote] What in the blue fuck does Martin's decision to tell his story as a novel way back in the 80's have to do with aspects of Season 8? Martin was talking about being able to create a dragon believably, casts of thousands, hordes of zombies etc. Are you mocking Martin?

*Sigh* I'll explain again: The fact that Martin wanted to create a believable dragon - does NOT mean he wanted to throw everything ELSE in the script under the bus (good dialogue, character insight, coherent plot, etc). And the seasons where he was more hands-on [italic]kept[/italic] to that sound principle.

Whereas, I’m “mocking” the amateurish, half-caring way B&W wrote their ASoIF-inspired [italic]fanfiction[/italic] once they ran out of literary source material to adapt.

[quote] And I'm not defending their script. Euron, blechhhhh. And of course, celebrate that Jon shanked Dany in mid kiss.

Of course you are defending it: 'Oh, the way they framed & depicted the finale was “awesome”.'

Daenerys is a Mel Brooks-type parody of Hitler. Snow is a milksop who uses a silly covert method when there's no need for it, as they're alone. Drogon is a scaredy-cat who throws a hissy-fit and flees, tail behind its legs. And I won't even go into the funny CIRCUS at the Great & Small Councils.

[bold]Blech indeed (as drama). But it was pure comedy gold. Which is even funnier given that Benioff & Weiss were aiming to write 'Emmy-winning' 'profoundly poetic' drama. They should really win instead in the "Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series" category :).[/bold]

by Anonymousreply 576August 5, 2019 12:09 PM

I'm late to this thread; I just finished binging the show a few days ago.

I think that R25's suggested ending is genius.

What was Bronn doing on that council? He had very recently proven he's extremely disloyal and willing to blackmail (with the threat of death) his former friend and client.

For a lot of the characters, a lot of the dialog is very Star-Wars-like. It sounds good coming from heroes and villains, but it's hard to deliver an award-worthy performance based on it.

by Anonymousreply 577October 2, 2019 3:44 AM
Loading
Need more help? Click Here.

Yes indeed, we too use "cookies." Take a look at our privacy/terms or if you just want to see the damn site without all this bureaucratic nonsense, click ACCEPT. Otherwise, you'll just have to find some other site for your pointless bitchery needs.

×

Become a contributor - post when you want with no ads!