Fosse/Verdon Part Trois

I think the number of posts on DL ultimately describes the number of viewers for this show.

I really have no idea what I was expecting from Fosse/Verdon, but what we got really wasn't it.

Profoundly disappointing? It's fucking brilliant. I loved Feud but this is even better.

Pearls before cunts

Critics are loving it.

So fuck off.

R3, not many would agree with you.

R4, not true. It’s gotten mostly mixed to negative reviews.

Has 83% on Rotten Tomatoes. I love it. Margaret Qualley is gonna be a star. A star, I SAY!

Nobody named Margaret can become a star these days.

Not everyone in the ensemble of the original company of Chicago were young. There were some older men in that ensemble. How could they get that so wrong? And what’s with the Asian-American guy and the guy with the pony tail? Uh uh

It isn't very good. The last few episodes have been a slog to get through.

I'm getting revenge on my two deceased narcissistic asshole parents.

No surprise that the episode with the most musical sequences is the Chicago episode.

That girl playing Nicole is genuinely creepy looking.

A slight mention of Michael Bennett despite ACL opened a few weeks earlier off Broadway and everyone knew what a hit it was. That drama would have been better than what they showed.

They made it look like Nowadays became a duet when it really was a solo for Verdon

Gee, Candy Brown was his pusher. How lovely.

The dancer is hispanic, not black, R14.

So it was graciella Danielle. Double lovely.

Not GEELTY!

Candy brown is named in the credits.

From what I heard fosse wanted a duet of nowadays and Chita said it’s Gwen’s song and walked out.

So they made it a solo and danced it as a duet.

And does someone release the Lin Manuel being a prick tapes soon?

I’ve heard Nicole was dumb, I didn’t know she was vengeful

Another chore to get through. And no "Roxie" number?

looooooooooove sam, so talented

but the bitch sux in ev thing she do.....pitiful pearlina.

They only danced it as a duet after Looping the Loop was dumped out of town. But arguing facts about this mess is like trying to convince a believer that pro wrestling is fake.

Exacty 22 and HOORAY at last a mention of Herb Gardner

Whoever thought Joan Simon should wear a fucking bow in her hair even in a flashback shod be punched repeatedly in the mouth.

I just don't get what the point of telling this story is. Michelle is great. She breaks my heart.

I really love this show. Then actors are good and Michelle is fucking brilliant.

Fosse has a sensitivity chip missing.

They didn't adopt the baby?

We should have been shown Liza in Chicago instead of hearing about it

The trailer for the finale doesn’t look promising but at least it looks like we’ll see the actor who plays Scheider as the fictionalized Fosse.

They tried to do too much in this episode.

Bob loved rubbing Liza in Gwen's face in the telephone scene.

Am I the father? Tell me the truth.

----

Clive Barnes, the theater critic of the NY Times at that time, really was an idiot. But he had all the power. I wonder what John Simon wrote about Verdon in Chicago.

/////

The bow in Joan Simon's hair reminds me of that Joan Rivers joke about the Jewish pregnancy - give me drugs and wake me up when the hairdresser arrives.

My water broke and my dog drowned!

Who the bleep did I marry?

Is that Meredith Talusan playing Nicole Fosse?

They had Gwen practically reading Bob the riot act when she said that she's the one who gave Bob his first directing gig in "Redhead", that she could have nixed him choreographing "Damn Yankees" and that she was used by him with no credit for lots of help when he directed the movies of "Sweet Charity" and "Cabaret". I couldn't tell what they were talking about in hushed tones while attending Nicole's ballet recital. Gwen didn't like Ron (Jerry Lanning character) complimenting her that her next stop is some big ballet company; she didn't want to give her false expectations. I still like Gwen -- I think she went through some real crap having to deal with Fosse on a personal and professional level. But the thing is for almost the entire time of their time together, she was the bigger name -- until the year he won Oscar, Emmy and Tony awards, did he start to catch up and really become a national name. Other choreographers would have been so happy to choreograph and direct Gwen Verdon in a show during her prime. I bet even Jerome Robbins would have treated her as the star with some respect. Michael Kidd's dances made her a star in "Can-Can" and you also had Gower Champion and Onna White directing musicals back then too.

I'm not sure what we are suppose to take away from all this. Fosse was a very good director/choreographer. Okay but that means nothing if you are a loathsome human being. I can see nothing in the depictions of any of his relationships that shows why anyone would want to be around him let alone tolerate his bullshit.

Fosse must have really known how to use those jazz hands, R42.

Are we suppose to believe that Gwen thought that Liza could just fill in without anyone noticing .

Liza needs to comment on this episode.

What a load of horseshit this episode was. Sorry, but Bob Fosse was a fucking genius, on film and onstage, and I'm not about to let the #MeToo movement and some spoiled failure say differently.

Liza sounded like a fabulous Roxie.

Sam whatever his name is playing Fosse was so funny dancing. I kept rewatching.

The original ensemble cast of Chicago was nowhere near as young and diverse as the one seen on last night’s episode. Where were the men over thirty? There were several in the original cast. And it was all-white except for Candy Brown. And not one of the men had a fucking ponytail. Who the fuck cast this?

I agree r47. They are writing this through a #metoo lens. I don't find the characterization of Fosse is layered or interesting. It has a specific agenda to make us loathe Fosse. I find it very one-dimensional, the portrayal and writing.

They also wasted an opportunity by not letting us see Gwen/Michelle do some of the Roxie number. I think that would have been a key attraction for Gwen to play the role. I can totally see her winning over the audience with that number.

Gwen was great doing "Roxie", a real star turn in the terrific original production.

There's audio of Gwen doing opening night which exists, and she's got the audience in the palm of her hands.

I love that line in the show-“First we were fooling around. Then we were screwing around-which is fooling around without dinner.”

I don't care about your complaints. Michelle Williams is doing next-level work and that's more than enough. She's amazing.

R47, I think that’s what they were saying in this week’s episode. Chicago was a ground-breaking musical - it just took audiences 20 years to figure that out. His genius speaks for itself. It’s a shame he didn’t live long enough to see the success of the revival. He alone understood how to present the material when everyone else around him - and no slouches either - thought otherwise.

Twenty years later A Chorus Line is unbearably dated. Chicago continues on. It’s his crowning achievement.

It sounds like you want all that writ large to the exclusion of all other participants. Someone already did that. It’s called All That Jazz.

Michelle is the only good thing in it. Great acting. If she wasn't in it, YIKES.

I like the bits with Norbert as Paddy Chayefsky. I wish they would’ve shown more of him and Neil Simon writing Chicago.

Butz just seems to be phoning it in using a Jason Alexander voice.

I was a little confused by the Razzle Dazzle scene. Everyone knows that was Jerry Orbach's number in the original Broadway production, but in last night's episode, Gwen was doing it, and I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be a fantasy scene or if they actually wanted us to believe that Gwen actually performed it.

I think it was symbolic narrative, r61 (notice she was even wearing a man’s tux). Sort of like “Bob” did Lenny Bruce- style to compliment lament last week’s plot line.

I swear I typed complement, not compliment lament!!

The guy playing Jerry Orbach looked absolutely nothing like him. And didn’t sound like him.

Damn that confetti canon!

Yea it would have been a shame to lose that beautiful singing voice and range Gwen had.

I thought that confetti thing was a lie to hide the reality that Verdon had potentially cancerous pollyps in her throat.

Sam pulled a Rhett Butler with the who's the real daddy comment.

I know Herb Gardner wrote "Roxy" dialogue

I though last night's episode was a bit of a mess. Joyless and dour. Like Bob and Gwen got no artistic satisfaction from Chicago, which I don't buy for a second. Which is why it would have helped to put the Roxie number somewhere in there. It's a scene tailor made for Gwen and a triumph for her.

And after John Rubenstein's comments about Pippin, I wonder how much of what happened last night was true.

And Ann Reinking reduced to "You shouldn't drink".

I seem to remember Reinking as being a more voluptuous figure than the stick thin actress playing her in this series.

compare the Reinking.

and again.

Ann Reinking's two poses above are hilariously awkward.

Had a nightmare last night I was being chased by the creepy actress playing Nicole #3.

All of that album's tracks are on-line. Gwen's in really good voice and the numbers really suit her voice. This was before the smoking started to affect her voice.

Why would Nicole Fosse approve that casting of herself?

I'm really hating the one note portrayal of Fosse. I get it - Fosse was a cheating, pill head, but he was loved by all his dancers and was known for being quite kind most of the time. He had his issues, but they're making him out to be a malicious asshole with no redeeming features whatsoever. Williams is excellent, though, and it's definitely her show. I'm surprised a great actor like Rockwell would take a role this dull and lacking nuance.

It is a slog to get through. It’s tiresome as a series but might have been a terrific two hour movie. I think Williams caught that Broadway Baby - always sunny tone of Verdons.

Finale trailer.

"is that strange, having Annie replace you?"

"It's pretty familiar."

0000

The finale is this week? Christ, that was fast. Is it a longer episode than usual?

It could be. A few of the others have been.

They better cover the moment when she was #MeToo'd by Wilford Brimley.

One bit of artistic license in the finale, according to my friend on the crew, is that Fosse will collapse in front of the theater in DC, not in front of the hotel.

====

I loved the Fosse biography the series is based on, and I’m also loving the series. I’m glad there’s a greater emphasis on Gwen on the series than there was in the book. Michelle Williams is doing a great job.

Very insightful interview with Ann Reinking-she’s seen two episodes.

I'm loving it, perhaps because I'm not a strident theater queen who bristles at the thought of an Asian man in the original chorus of "Chicago."

That Ann Reinking article just highlights all the issues with this show. It's possibly to make Fosse a flawed man without turning him into a one dimensional monster. It sounds like Fosse and Verdon were flawed and complicated, but you don't remain friends with someone you hate. They're turning Fosse into Mama Rose and Verdon into Gypsy and making it a story about Verdon having what Fosse always wanted. Maybe there's some truth to that, but in the long run, doesn't Fosse have more of a name value than Verdon? Didn't he kinda get what he wanted?

It'd be nice to see a little bit of Fosse's charm here and there as well as some of his talent. We've seen a few brief clips here and there, but unless you're already familiar with Fosse's work, you're not going to stand up and go "wow! I see why everyone wanted to work with him."

After "Chicago" on Broadway in 1975, Fosse never again had a hit musical with a regular book show. "Dancin' " was a hit revue with many of his past dances, and Gwen was back as his (usually uncredited assistant), but "Big Deal" was a big flop with only "Beat Me Daddy" a standout as a number. Otherwise, "Sweet Charity' was a revival when he died, and "Fosse" another musical revue, was a tribute after he died. Back again was Gwen as consultant/keeper of the flame. But it wasn't like he was regularly putting up shows after "Chicago". "All That Jazz" and "Star 80", the latter a flop also occupied his time.

I find I play Gwen's OCR's more than I think as much about Bob Fosse though. She did some great shows, and while it's rare to see mountings of "New Girl in Town" and "Redhead", Gwen did set the mark really high in creating Lola, Charity and Roxie for all others to follow.

"Dancin' " was a hit revue with many of his past dances, ...

You mean "Fosse".

^ Meaning Dancin' numbers weren't "many of his past dances,".

"Besides, when he had the heart attack she was in a back brace, having fractured her vertebrae during a “gravity-defying” jitterbug in the Broadway show “Over Here!”"

R96, Wow! No wonder she got hurt, doing that night after night.

Ann Reinking was what my dear mother used to call “built like a brick shithouse.” Thick waist. Big hips and thighs. Muscular in a feminine way, very fit. More full-figured all over, like Sophia Loren or Marilyn Monroe, than a ballerina with bolt-on tits. No extra weight, just healthy looking. Farm fed, I guess you could say.

You can see it when she plays Daddy Warbucks’ secretary Grace in Annie. Not an ounce of fat out of place, but plenty in the right places.

Ann is a dancer who couldn't sing!

Fuck off, R91. There’s nothing wrong about some of us thinking it might have been a good thing if casting got it right on Fosse/Verdon across the board.

I’m looking forward to the day that Lin Manuel Miranda gets a biopic. Then maybe Someone will turn him into a villain and he will know what it feels like. The more I know about him, the more I believe that deep down, LMM is a sinister man.

And speaking of turns, Dan Correia’s quadruple pirouette at r96 was flawless. Such control.

R93, Chicago was not that big a hit at the time. People forget his show was so much darker, uglier and confusing than the revival. Arlene Croce correctly noted that Fosse kept trying to force an allegory between Chicago and Nazi Berlin, where none existed. For Fosse, he thought Roxie was Arturo Ui and pushed it throughout the show. After Chicago, he started doing shows with no book like Dancin or even Big Deal. Sondheim said that Fosse saw the final fifteen minutes of Follies and made a career of it.

Reinking broke her back on the backflip before Correia's triple turn, although her original dance partner, John Mineo did not do that. She also got dropped on her head on the other lift where she flips backwards but is in the arms of her partner.

I wonder who got Fosse to lay off the heels, garter belt and stockings on the male ensemble members during previews.

This is interesting:

R4 good reviews mean nothing these days when critics are afraid to be honest/open, especially when it pertains to issues of female empowerment and other social causes. A movie or show that features any of that is automatically given good reviews. This series has purposely made Fosse look bad, charmless, and incompetent without the assistance of Verdon, the woman behind the man! All that is a lie! But the critics eat it up because it sells the female empowerment angle.

Somebody needs to make Wagner/Wood to focus on a REAL villain.

That would be a great miniseries r106.

Thanks!

These Nicole scenes are torturous.

Tom Selleck was relatively unknown in 1979/1980.

Where's Jess?

Is that who I think it is playing Roy Schieder?

Too much of the black hole that is Nicole. The actress is terrible.

This Nicole is so boring and pointless that I didn't even care if she went over the ledge.

LMM is such a flaming narcissist. He really could t just stay behind the scenes, could he?

The girl playing Nicole would be OK as a hooker on The Deuce but is disastrously miscast in this.

I never knew Debbie Allen was a latina.

LOL @ Nicole Fosse "had a career in film and on Broadway" but no credits mentioned.

I’m glad they illuminated Gwen Verdon. I think that needed to happen. But I don’t think that Gwen’s reputation needed to be illuminated at the expense of Bob Fosse’s reputation. I simply don’t believe he was this one dimensional. That isn’t how his dancers talk about him.

Nicole’s epilogue has four lines. Gwen’s has two.

I agree r120. It wasn't a very well written show in my opinion. The article above with Ann Reinking gave more nuances to him. Of course, she would have more of a bias since she was his ex girlfriend but both she and John Rubinstein both explained why Fosse was someone people wanted to work with, something this show failed to do.

Death scene was excellent - the looks on both’s faces were very effective. And thankfully it wasn’t just a cliché life flashing before our eyes - it was THEIR lives.

Debbie Allen never had droopy titties and would NEVER slouch like that. Jesus Christ, so much of the casting on this thing has been THE WORST.

I also don’t believe that Debbie Allen would have treated Bob Fosse like she did in this program. She knew who she was working with. Why does this series insist on undermining Fosse at every opportunity? He certainly was no angel, but he wasn’t this either.

Wasn’t Donna Mckechnie the Charity when Fosse died? Lin did look just like Roy Scheider. Too bad he took a part away from someone who could have used the work and paycheck. I found it hard to get teary eyed at the end over his death. He was portrayed as a selfish prick. Nicole was never that pretty as portrayed by the last actress. I give the series a c+. Many fabrications, sams awful wig and some bad casting. Williams was outstanding however.

It was a ho-hum series. Michelle Williams was the best part.

The Debbie Allen scene was ridiculous.

In the article R90 posts, Ann Reinking mentions that Fosse had epilepsy. Did anyone notice that? Has this ever been mentioned anyplace before? First time I've ever heard it.

llll

How much of this series was about Gwen Verdon and Bob Fosse and how much was actually about Nichole needing attention?

////

The Fosse epilepsy is in the Sam Wasson book.

Such a weird series. They could have approached these two creative figures from a different angle; but the showrunners clearly just wanted to re-make "All That Jazz" over eight hours.

[quote] Debbie Allen never had droopy titties

My boobies were perky puppies!

The titles at the end were so underwhelming. Almost more space was given to what happened to Nicole. How about Gwen's place in theater history? They could have said something like "Gwen Verdon winner of 4 Tony Awards is considered to be the biggest dance star in Broadway history. Her impact on having performers train to be triple threats, as well as her collaborations, credited and uncredited with Bob Fosse, make her one of the Broadway musical's legends".

That would have been more fitting, rather than just saying she died in her sleep 2 months after moving in with Nicole in Vermont. What's with these people?! Plus, having Lin-Manuel Miranda giving himself a role that has him as Roy Scheider being applauded by the background people, just plays to his narcissism.

Lin-Marie said the final episode coda is poignant and beautiful. The quiet, pastoral scene of Nicole Fosse’s family getting into a car, and driving away is something her parents could never get out of the life. They could never get out of that cycle of needing that applause and needing that validation, and Nicole did it — she got out and she raised a family.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but to anyone who reads these thread who might actually know:

Was Nicole truly talent-less? or did consciously decide not to pursue a career in show business for whatever reason?

This show was beyond inept. It’s like someone gave a bunch of kids in the Drama Club some money and said go put on a show.

[quote]They could have said something like "Gwen Verdon winner of 4 Tony Awards is considered to be the biggest dance star in Broadway history. Her impact on having performers train to be triple threats, as well as her collaborations, credited and uncredited with Bob Fosse, make her one of the Broadway musical's legends".

Wow. That's even clumsier and more poorly written than some of what was in the show. Keep your day job, r135.

[quote]Debbie Allen never had droopy titties

Oh, HELL yes, she did!

[quote]Nicole was never that pretty as portrayed by the last actress.

Actually, that was one of the better bits of casting. She looked very much like the real Nicole did back then.

The Nicole bashing is bordering on psychotic.

Nicole did have some talent going by the film of A Chorus Line but I guess her addiction problem was what prevented her from getting any further.

Nicole on Miami Vice

R132 Whether Fosse had epilepsy or not, dramatically you don't suddenly whip out that fact in the climactic moment of the last five minutes of an 8 part series. My genuine interest in the show quickly devolved into disappointment into rage at how deeply terrible it was. I shoulda left by episode two or three; it seems hate watching isn't all it's cracked up to be.

All criticism excepted from Michelle Williams of course who was amazing.

You're right of course. They could have told us about it in the earlier scenes where he was otherwise pill-popping or when seen by a doctor. e.g. someone who suffers from epilepsy shouldn't be doing this. I don't think it's mentioned in All That Jazz but then I understand Fosse didn't want it publically known.

For the last episode the title was changed to Fosse/Verdon/Nicole

Nicole Fosse on Her Father, Her Mother, and Herself

The death scene showed a montage of scenes withFosse smiling I didn’t remember that while watching the series. He was portrayed as grim.

Lin-Manuel on his cameo as Roy Scheider: "My fans know me as a song and dance man and had been waiting for me to turn up in a part in the show. Director Tommy Kail was on board saying you don't look unlike Roy Scheider. What amazed me when I saw the cut was that I wasn't even sure it was me because the work of the make-up and the costume departments were so good. But I can assure you it was, because I had to get in top shape for really tight outfit for Bye, Bye Love." God, the ego.

“My fans”

I so wanted to like this more than I did. I was committed to watching the whole thing, but week after week it felt more like an assignment than a pleasurable viewing experience. It was surprisingly colorless and lacked electricity for something that was supposed to honor two artists who had both. Michelle Williams was truly the saving grace and the only one to walk away from this better off for having participated. I'm glad it's over.

[quote]Whether Fosse had epilepsy or not, dramatically you don't suddenly whip out that fact in the climactic moment of the last five minutes of an 8 part series

They mentioned it in a previous scene

Sounds like Nicole wanted her own Mommie Dearest.

Cheri Oteri would have been an interesting Gwen Verdon.

It really went downhill. Episodes 1 and 2 were good. The show was best when they showed Bob and Gwen collaborating and feeding off of each other. There should have been more of that.

R153 Maybe you're right, but I don't remember seeing/hearing it previously on the series.

“I'm glad it's over.“

What a bizarre reaction to a TV show.

Didn’t Bob tell Paddy in the opening scene that he wanted “someone sexy” after Dreyfuss bailed because he was nervous about the dancing? And they ended up with Lin-Manuel Miranda as Roy Scheider? Who’s as sexy as a slug?

And where was Margaret Qualley as Ann/Katie in the All That Jazz/“Bye Bye Love” sequence? There would have been a substantial dramatic moment of her hugging fake Bob and then the real Bob.

Lin-Manuel's ego knows no bounds.

[quote] How about Gwen's place in theater history? They could have said something like "Gwen Verdon winner of 4 Tony Awards is considered to be the biggest dance star in Broadway history. Her impact on having performers train to be triple threats, as well as her collaborations, credited and uncredited with Bob Fosse, make her one of the Broadway musical's legends".

Mary!

Martin!

Ethel!

Schwartz!

Hotchkiss!

This whole series was so underwhelming. I hate to think that people will think of Fosse and Verdon as this dour in the future. As others have said, Michelle Williams was the only saving grace and deserves an Emmy, not just for her wonderful performance, but for supporting the entire show on her shoulders. It almost seemed like Williams told someone "I want to play Gwen Verdon", she proved she could do it, they cast all the people to play the people in Gwen's life, and just had them improvise everything for a few months. The writing was that awful.

It's been a stupid series. Fosse was played as all darkness and no charm, and you had no sense of why he was considered a genius. Martin Short-as-Nicole did not add much either--she had no personality (other than we knew she felt buffeted between her self-absorbed parents and shunted aside, and was curious about drugs and alcohol because they used it so much). It was basically a series that had a void at its center.

The most interesting part of the whole series was Williams as Verdon--she really disappeared into the part, though she had so little interesting to do. All the parts were underwritten, including hers.

RICHARDSON/STREISAND/SPIELBERG

[quote]Wasn't Donna Mckechnie the Charity when Fosse died?

Yes, she's credited as the opening night Charity on IBDB. Kiss-ass Lin probably felt his fans would've been all, "Donna who?", and so he ordered some creative re-writing of history.

I wonder why they didn't use Bob's actual last words, "Don't let me fall, Gwen"? I was waiting for that, it would've been a lot more moving. Seems they made the moment all about Gwen/Michelle and her reaction.

Well, it was a Bob/Gwen love story. Of course, many people felt Bob's love was actually Joan McCracken but that didn't suit the storyline. And the Ann Reinking character was the most boring you could imagine.

All I really understood of Reinking's character by the end of the miniseries was she dressed neatly and she had pretty ironed hair.

How doid Donna fit into opening Charity? I always assumed Debbie Allen must have opened it. Did she just show up for Broadway? What was the timeline for Charity casting?

I thought his final words were "Don't fall on me, Gwen", R168

So was there a real "Ron" - or was he some composite character?

R171 The Sweet Charity revival starring Debbie Allen opened in L.A. then moved to Broadway. (I don't know if there were any stops in between.)

After the Broadway run, Donna McKechnie was to take that production on a National Tour to open in D.C. It was on that tour's opening night in D.C. that Fosse died.

R173 "Ron" was mainly Jerry Lanning who played the adult Patrick in the original Mame. Allegedly combined with a few other characters both real and imagined thrown in for good measure.

[quote] How about Gwen's place in theater history? They could have said something like "Ladies and gentlemen, we consider Gwen Verdon not simply the winner of 4 Tony Awards and the biggest dance star in Broadway history, but yea, indeed the greatest actress in all of human history! Just thinking upon her many unsurpassed glories as she flitted across the stage makes us all cream our pants!"

There, I fixed it for you!

She is Bob Fosse's wife.

....

The Lin-Manuel hate is boring. I have no interest in him at all but he looked EXACTLY like Roy Scheider in profile and the girl was perfect casting too.

Her Tony wins were mentioned in the series.

[quote] The Lin-Manuel hate is boring.

Everyone here lives only to excite you!

Gwen had bright blue eyes unlike her portrayer.

R178 What girl? Did they dress Lin up to look like Leland Palmer too? His versatility astounds!

Cy Feuer put Nicole in ACL simply to help repair his destroyed close frienship with Fosse after their disastrous falling out making Cabaret.

It did no good. Fosse still hated Cy though he used him to get Nicole the job. It's in Feuer's autobio.

[quote]The Lin-Manuel hate is boring.

And borderline psychotic.

If Feuer wanted to repair the relationship, he should have offered Fosse the job as director of ACL, which he would have jumped at.

Hal Prince put Nicole in Phantom and complimented her several times in print.

Verdon's Tony wins were interesting in that the one she didn't get was for Sweet Charity. Lansbury got it for Mame, which costarred Verdon's future boyfriend, Jerry Lanning.

I wish they would’ve spent some time on Star 80. Although I personally love the movie, it’s been said that Fosse saw the Snider character as himself if he had never been successful. That’s some interesting psychology to dive into, and the Snider/Stratton relationship has unsettling shades of Fosse/Verdon. It would’ve also been nice to at least mention the Hollywood success Gwen had as an older woman in blockbusters with Cocoon.

I hate when Lin Manuel Miranda and his punchable face slithers his way into something I’m watching.

Just be grateful he didn't cast himself as Fosse. You just know he wanted to.

i didn't know Roy Scheider was Puerto Rican.

Blockbusters plural, R186? You make it sound like she played Princess Leia in all the Star Wars films. Gwen was in Cocoon and that’s it. And she was the least memorable of all the female characters.

She was very good in Marvin’s Room.

Gwen was also in MARVIN'S ROOM (with Meryl Streep, Robert DeNiro, Diane Keaton, and Leo DiCaprio) and received a SAG nomination for Best Supporting Actress.

I also would have liked to have seen Fosse working on Star 80. Rockwell's interpretation of Fosse probably would have suited that period more than the others (as I found him miscast). Also it would have been interesting to see Gwen and his family and friends reacting to him dealing with such a grim, sordid subject.

[quote]Gwen had bright blue eyes unlike her portrayer

So? The noteworthy feature of Verdon's appearance was her red hair, not her eyes.

Star 80 might have been covered if Nicole had wanted to play Dorothy Stratton. She was certainly pretty enough, appeared to have the bust for it, and was only a few years younger than the real Dorothy.

The series was all around disappointing with a few bright spots here and there. Williams was astounding and the best I've ever seen her.

The miniseries had a very limited budget and it showed.

So Ann Reinking had to audition for the role of herself in All That Jazz? I can believe that she was asked to read. What I find very hard to believe was that they would have made her have to sit in a waiting room with Ann Reinking lookalikes also waiting to audition. C'mon! They would have at least had the decency to have her come in a private setting.

It was all to make Fosse look horrible. The whole damn thing is a hit piece! Shameless.

Paddy's funeral scene was a joke.

What this did was really made me appreciate Ryan Murphy. Whatever you can say about "Feud," he at least made the characters all seem alive and memorable and complex--not just Joan and Bette, but Mamacita, Robert Aldrich, Aldrich's secretary, Aldrich's wife, B. D., Louis Mayer, Hedda Hopper, Olivia de Havilland, Anne Bancroft, Geraldine Page, etc.

By contrast, the only three-dimensional character in this was Gwen Verdon--everyone else was flat and dull.

Interesting how the last three episodes abandoned the surreal shit, even if a case can be made for the “if they could see me now” scene.

LMM just can't help himself. haha. He didn't look anything like Roy Scheider. Stop the lies. Michelle turned this out. That is all. Glad it's over.

Agreed, r200. Feud was way more entertaining. It captured the excitement of Hollywood. This show never captured the appeal of Broadway or Hollywood. Even the recreations of moments like Mein Herr just seemed perfunctory.

[quote]Martin Short-as-Nicole

That made me laugh out loud.

It was a moving final moment, but this series didn’t have much of a reason to exist after episode 2. Could have been done in a movie.

And LMM as Roy Scheider? Lolol, he WISHES he had that much talent.

Face it, LMM has a severe likability problem. People just don’t like him, except for his creepy and crazed faaaaaaannnnnnsss.

[quote] . It almost seemed like Williams told someone "I want to play Gwen Verdon", she proved she could do it, they cast all the people to play the people in Gwen's life, and just had them improvise everything for a few months. The writing was that awful.

Truth.

[quote]Face it, LMM has a severe likability problem.

You're confusing DL with the real world.

I can’t stand LMM. I hope the In the Heights movie has an amazing soundtrack recording so that I can listen to the music without his weird, nasal voice.

The one who plays Chita could do The Michele Lee story.

I loved this miniseries because it was done so stylishly, and the acting was superb. I wasn't so familiar with Fosse's and Verdon's lives so this filled me in.

I fell asleep early on in the episode and woke up just at the end. I considered going back and rewatching to see what I missed, and I've decided it's just not worth the aggravation. That sums up my reaction to the entire mess.

Bebe Neuwirth was also in that Revival of Sweet Charity.

Video below shows Debbie Allen, Chita Rivera, Bebe Neuwirth - "If They Could See Me Now" from the 1997 Bway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS Concert

Debbie is long overdue for a Kennedy Center honor.

R215 Is there an eye roll emoji somewhere on here?

[quote]I wasn't so familiar with Fosse's and Verdon's lives so this filled me in.

NEWSFLASH: They were mostly lies!

[quote] NEWSFLASH: They were mostly lies!

Oh who cares? I know I'm not watching a documentary. I'm watching a dramatized version of their lives.

Who wants to enroll in the Debbie Allen School of Dance?

In the late 1980's Debbie Allen cut an album. She was a successful actress, dancer, and choreographer--so producers wanted to make her a singer too (a la Paula Abdul).

The album was so overproduced to cover up a weak voice,

R218 well, you said "if filled you in on their lives," which implies that you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

R221, not really. I learned about the general arc of their lives and now I can proceed to completely forget about them.

It's not like Fosse's and Verdon's lives are central to anything I do

I care about a biopic being truthful. I wouldn't want people making shit up about me.

What is the point of making a biopic if you are just going to make things up? Why not create an original story if that is your intention? LMM should be ashamed but he doesn’t know shame.

So LMM researched their lives and wrote all the scripts? He really is multi-talented.

You know he was the producer. And you know full well what a producer does. Nice try though.

Lucky Linny never flew so high.

i always find LMM very sweet.

But sexy and studly he is not.

LMM does seem sweet, but he also appears to be an SJW, which really turns me off! I have an aversion to SJWs and Deplorables -- pretty much anyone with extreme politics who lives in a fantasyland!

It’s his ego that makes me sick. The fact that the series actually has Bob Fosse stating they need someone handsome to play him in All That Jazz and LMM shows up. Someone more handsome? The answer was himself.

Love LMM, have never seen his ego in anything. Face it, he's just damn talented.

btw, forgotten fun fact from the 70s. The very first person approached to play Fosse in All That Jazz? Paul Newman! Google it if you don't believe me.

Well, to be fair, they said they needed someone "handsomer [than Richard Dreyfus]," and that's not a high bar.

Lin-Manuel may be no oil painting, but he is at least handsomer than Richard Dreyfus.

R231 you are what is called a stan.

He IS talented. I love In the Heights, though I don’t get Hamilton. He’s very talented. I also think he’s an egomaniac.

The revival of "Sweet Charity" was Fosse's last hit and his only hit since Dancin'. However, people do forget that Debbie Allen was a big name and propelled the BO. Once she left and Reinking took over, the show limped to a quick close. On tour, McKechnie couldn't even keep the show open with the publicity of Fosse's death.

McKechnie just isn't much of an actress, let alone comedienne. I can't imagine she was a good Charity at all except when she danced.

Reinking can't sing or act and I was fairly shocked when I saw this. She's doing the same steps but something is really missing from the Verdon version. No finesse, no grace, no elegance.

R237 is that why she didn't make it big in Hollywood?

video with Bebe as well

I saw that revival of Sweet Charity. Allen was underwhelming, particularly in her characterization. She played her simply as an airhead—there is some of that as written, but she also needs some charm and pathos. Neuwirth acted, danced, and sang rings around her as Nicki and won a Tony—it was the first time i’d Seen or heard of her, and she was so much more interesting. Michael Rupert made Oscar more appealing (he also got a Tony), though the character is always ultimately a heel—a nice heel, but a heel nonetheless. I suspect the show only really worked with Verdon, though I would like to have seen Rivera do it when she did the tour.

R241, Rivera is probably the worst actress of the bunch and has the undeniable talent of making characters into villains, primarily because of her witch like looks.

[quote] I care about a biopic being truthful. I wouldn't want people making shit up about me.

Name a biopic that was absolutely truthful.

None because it's hard to dramatize everything exactly how it happened

I don't think I'd buy Rivera as Charity much either. She wasn't a great Roxie either. Wonderful Velma obviously, but Roxie needs to be a lot less hard edged than Velma to really work.

Verdon has charm in spades. You wanted to take care of her

I also saw that production with Debbie Allen and completely agree with you. Something else bugged me but it's a touchy argument so I have to be careful. There was all this talk going on at the time about color-blind casting which is why Debbie Allen did the role. Yet, for the context and period of the musical, it made no sense to me that Michael Rupert was cast. Race was a big issue in the early 60s. So much is mentioned in the script about their romance not being possible because of the class structure yet nothing about race. We're just supposed to listen to these arguments but ignore the fact that Charity is black? I thought they should have either rewritten the book to include discussion of race, or cast a black actor instead of Rupert. As done, it made no sense to me.

Charity is a hard role to cast and not just because of the dancing and singing demands, but because the role can easily tip over into the ridiculous. You have to have someone who can make you believe Charity is endlessly naive, but not mentally deranged or slow. She needs to be vulnerable and you have to want her to get her act together. The production was mostly shit, but Christina Applegate was quite good in the role during that last revival.

Kill me, but I thought MacLaine was a great Charity in the movie. Maybe a bit too weepy too early, but she had the charm, charisma, humor, and vulnerability in spades.

I thought the Allen casting was a perfect example of color blind casting. She seemed straight out of the dance hall and it made sense that Rupert would be attracted to her.

R243, Jessica Lange's Frances is essentially complete fiction but it still was gripping.

Recent fictionalized biopics have nothing on the biopics from Hollywood's golden age. "Night and Day," starring Cary Grant as frog-faced Cole Porter, was such a fantasy it might as well have been produced by Walt Disney.

Don't forget Lady Sings the Blues which was also complete fantasy.

Here are Allen, Reinking and McKechnie doing Charity's Theme. Call it charisma, star power or whatever, Allen is the only one who seems to create a character from the second she appears, and it's not the sassy persona we're used to. McKechnie is the best dancer and Reinking is completely miscast, especially with that ridiculous wig. Reinking does a nice bit when the sign descends and she does a comic take when she sees it.

[quote] Race was a big issue in the early 60s. So much is mentioned in the script about their romance not being possible because of the class structure yet nothing about race.

Always funny when people complain about the lack of reality in a musical...but don't mention that people just stop and start singing in the middle of their days

Did the last Sweet Charity revival keep Fosse's choreography?

I enjoyed Christian Applegate despite all the negative things people said about her. The whole thing was fun.

I believe most of the revival choreography was changed. Hence why most of the production was rather meh altogether. However, Applegate was sensational. I always felt bad for her and wish she'd return to Broadway.

Wayne Cilento did the choreography.

Why the fuck did they put Reinking in that awful wig? It's as bad as the Carol Brady wig they gave Sutton Foster when she played the role a few years ago.

to 234, what is a stan?

R243 most reputable biopics at least try to stick as close to the facts. FOSSE/VERDON was something else , though. Most of it wasn't true. It's more fictional and factual.

R253 okay, so let's have a multiracial production of The Color Purple. What difference does it make? They're all just singing and swaying anyway.

R258 a stan is a portmanteau of *stalker* and *fan* and refers to fans who worship their idols with a blind devotion (i.e., their idols have no flaws).

All this talk about miscast Charity actresses, and no one mentions me?

Face it, LMM has a severe troll problem. People just don’t hate him, except for his creepy and crazed stalkers.

There -- I fixed it for you r207.

I set a high bar, fellas.....

I also saw that Debbie Allen revival pre-Broadway in L.A. (as well as the original with the brilliant Gwen Verdon.) The biggest problem with the revival was that Debbie Allen was so unlikeable people started referring to it as "Mean Charity."

And since I've stopped by, I just figured I'd mention again that Fosse/Verdon was a truly disgraceful piece of shit.

You tried it R263. No one likes him.

Giulietta!

I love IN THE HEIGHTS too. But the girl he wrote it with plays a huge part in it. Some nice songs in Hamilton but that's it for me. I love BRING IT ON too but again he wrote half of the MUSIC. He is no actor and definitely no singer. So, he's an average talented songwriter. His writing is very simple.

R260, where in any reference is Charity white? As such, why doesn't anyone object to Chita doing the role?

I'm up to episode 4. While the scene with Gwen and Neil Simon's wife in the hospital was touching, nobody knows or cares who Neil Simon's wife was.

And the guy playing Ben Vereen looked nothing like him. It's like the casting director just said, "Send me a black man that can dance Fosse."

R258 That's clever but the term Stan comes from the Eminem song Stan.

R270 Neil Simon's play "Chapter Two" is basically about Simon mourning his wife and then meeting Marsha Mason; I forget how much detail the play gives about her, but she's basically the chapter one.

According to Neil Simon, the main character of Corie in "Barefoot in the Park" is heavily based on his first wife Joan and their early married years.

By all means they should absolutely give Debbie Allen a Kennedy Center Honor before Liza Minnelli. Makes so much sense! There are some real idiots here. And re:: Chita’s witch-like visage, when her face suddenly appeared in the film Chicago in a brief, terrifying cameo, the audience at the Ziegfeld theatre screamed in horror.

[quote]Face it, LMM has a severe likability problem. People just don’t like him, except for his creepy and crazed faaaaaaannnnnnsss.

Actually, the anti-LMM troll (it seems to be just one) has always struck me as much more "creepy and crazed" than his fans, who seem rather subdued, at least on DL. Not over the top at all. It seems obvious that what bothers this troll/loon more than anything is the fact that LMM is Latino. He constructs this fantasy world where LMM is not a success, or is a "phony" success, and he lives it out, all on DL. It has no relationship to reality, where LMM is a major success.

[quote] nobody knows or cares who Neil Simon's wife was.

Not strictly the truth, since Simon based one of his most successful plays, Chapter Two, on his recovery from the grief of losing Joan and his courtship of Marsha Mason.

R276 meet R272

Did Liza inspire millions of students like this?

Ann Reinking, interviewed after only seeing the first two episodes of "Fosse/Verdon" - she thinks Williams and Rockwell were wonderful, and is very happy about the casting of Margaret Qualley, particularly since Qualley is a real dancer. But she hopes future episodes would be "kinder" about Fosse, and points out how beloved he was by so many different people. He was not an "abuser" in her eyes. (Obviously, she didn't get her wish)

She also says the episode of her having sex with Fosse in the hospital bed after his heart attack - which she had heard about but hadn't seen - wasn't accurate, that it happened after he was out of the hospital. Among other things, she points out that while he was in the hospital, she was in a back brace because of her broken vertebrae, which happened during her last performance in "Over Here." Too bad they couldn't show that, although it had nothing, really, to do with either Fosse or Verdon. She also talks about auditioning for "All That Jazz" and says she "auditioned for everything back then" - although there are other sources that quote her as being perturbed at having to audition to play herself.

There’s a reason a lot of people are resentful about LMM. Relatively few people (from an audience perspective) have spent $500 to see him play the substitute teacher who puts on a sideways cap, turns his chair around, and rap about history. The people who have are very influential. He started showing up everywhere. And because the hype was so over the top — Michelle Obama calling his show the greatest piece of art she ever saw was so phony — it went straight to his head. So now a general audience has to see this guy shoved down their throats who radiates such smug arrogance all the time. And the fact that he isn’t an actor and gave himself the part makes it even worse. His British accent in Mary Poppins was so embarrassing and he clearly only got the part because Disney wants the rights to make the Hamilton film, which will flop just like the similarly hyped but not able to live up to it trend piece RENT.

LIn has a KHC.

I think Debbie Allen absolutely deserves an honour. She is not a great singer but she is an excellent actress, dancer, choreographer but also a terrific producer and director. It was she - not Bill Cosby - who made A Different World stand out and be a hit and stand on its own without relying on the Cosby name. It's a shame that ADW is kind of neglected today because of its association with BC because Allen really took the reins of the show in its second, post-Lisa Bonet season and made it about black students working towards being professionals and learning about black history and black consciousness. Many of the episodes would resonate today.

She's an Emmy-winning choreographer, and Tony nominee. She choreographed the Oscars. She's very talented and respected in Hollywood.

Here’s an interesting article with some clips of Fosse, Verdon and Reinking dancing.

R282, I agree with you. She is the whole package.

I was really struck, listening to one of the videos at R283, at how much Sam Rockwell sounded like the real Bob Fosse. He really got his voice down.

R282 She also had a choreographic repertoire about 2 different dance moves when she did dances, usually with the late lamented Gene Anthony Ray.

Yes I thought some people looked forward to the Debbie Allen dance routine at the Oscars, when she had the gig for a number of years, as the nadir of show business.

Just because it deserves to be seen again....

I thought you were going to post her Footloose number.

[quote] to 234, what is a stan?

That yutz, my ex-husband, is a Stan, Rose.

Was Kenny Loggins sick or something?

LMM was Olivier in Mary Poppins compared to Dick Van Dyke if you compare accents.

Did anybody see the last episode?

That part at the end, where Bob has a heart attack, was just heartbreaking. You could tell they had a bond that was stronger than all others. He was with the right person at that moment.

R292 Thank you, Lin for your very special presence here. Now bugger off.

I don’t think Sam Rockwell is getting enough credit for nailing the dance moves the way he did. He was so fluid and natural. You could really believe he was a choreographer and a former pro dancer on those scenes.

It really was him and Michelle Williams succeeding despite the shitty writing and production values.

[quote]LMM was Olivier in Mary Poppins compared to Dick Van Dyke if you compare accents.

Absolutely. How about if you bugger off, tiresome troll at R294.

Absolutely, R295. Williams gets the accolades because her character was sympathetic and Rockwell gets the short end because the Fosse character was written so smarmy. Both of them were superb in inhabiting their roles and mastering the physicality.

[quote]Williams gets the accolades because her character was sympathetic and Rockwell gets the short end because the Fosse character was written so smarmy.

It was written that way because the creators are trying to jump on the #metoo bandwagon by presenting Gwen as a put-upon female who becomes empowered. In reality, Gwen was just a doormat and possibly masochist. All of her life.

[quote]so he ordered some creative re-writing of history.

No he didn’t. The scene of Gwen and Bob rehearsing with Debbie Allen was from the tryout in Los Angeles. The show then went to Broadway where Allen opened it, Reinking closed it, and Donna McKechnie took it on the road the following year - which is when Fosse died.

[quote]In reality, Gwen was just a doormat and possibly masochist. All of her life.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

[quote]Night and Day," starring Cary Grant as frog-faced Cole Porter, was such a fantasy it might as well have been produced by Walt Disney.

Even worse was DeLovely, the version with Kevin Kline & Ashley Judd. They had a scene with Kevin/Cole and Ashley/Linda leaving a screening and giggling over how ridiculous it was, as if their casting was any more believable.

R301 what do you call someone who puts up with her husband's infidelity (and then some) but never divorces him and remains with him to his dying day? She was at his beck and call to the end and never broke away from that toxic cycle. Thus, she's a doormat! (And a possible masochist if she got some gratification off of it.)

[quote]what do you call someone who puts up with her husband's infidelity (and then some) but never divorces him and remains with him to his dying day?

She was strong enough to take a lover. There is a scene in ep 4 where Fosse comes into her apartment in the night and gets belted by Gwen's boyfriend.

I don't think Gwen was a doormat at all. While Fosse had his numerous affairs, she had her trysts as well. And, she benefitted from her association with Fosse, so she stuck around while his career was on an upswing. The series touched upon this when she insisted that he show up at one of her stage engagements. She knew his appearance would generate buzz and increase ticket sales.

This was just awful at the end. More like Phosphorus/Vermin.

Ridiculous to think Verdon was a doormat, and she was certainly not at his beck and call. She knew she needed him to do Chicago. Once that was over, she no longer looked to him for her career, and that’s when her movie/tv career really got started.

Bennett should have offered Gwen the role of Cassie in A Chorus Line.

Because, Bob, er I mean Zach, I can't act! God, I'm a dancer. A dancer dances.

All things being equal, if Bennett knew what ACL would turn into, he probably would have played Zach. He never allowed Nicholas Dante to play Paul. At least he didn't let Lisa Mordente play Morales.

[quote]And, she benefitted from her association with Fosse, so she stuck around while his career was on an upswing. The series touched upon this when she insisted that he show up at one of her stage engagements.

And when she very clearly told Annie “get gigs from him.”

R308 Verdon was a wonderful actress, if you're implying otherwise.

[quote]Verdon was a wonderful actress, if you're implying otherwise.

Not implying anything. That's one of Cassie's lines in her monologue leading up to Music & The Mirror.

Wasn’t she in her 50s when A Chorus Line premiered? I mean, come on...

r309 - That's MISS Mordente to you, bub!

[quote]Wasn’t she in her 50s when A Chorus Line premiered? I mean, come on...

Cassie is supposed to be older than the other kids. She went to LA to have a film career and then had to return.

And Jennifer Holiday is *still* playing Effie in Dreamgirls. And she's 59.

You try to be Peg o' My Heart.....

Uhhh, R315, Sheila is the oldest of “the kids” and she just turned 30. So Cassie is probably 27 or 28.

I’m well aware of the story of A Chorus Line. Yes, Cassie is older but most of those characters are probably 24. Older than THAT, yes, but not into her 50s!

And she's real glad, r317.

Boring. It's obvious Nicole Fosse did not like her father.

My boyfriend heard on a podcast that the girl playing Debbie Allen had to get extensions done for five hours to look like that. And she didn't even look like her. That's some insight into the minds of these idiots behind the production. 5 hours on extensions. Ok. A five min appearance by an actress in a top hat. A wig would have been more than fine.

R317, Cassie is 32. Zach says "you left the chorus when you're 22, what the hell makes you think you can go back when you're 32?" Also, Gregory is also older than Sheila.

D'Amboise was 42 when she did the revival.

R322 what revival?

ACL in 2006

Verdon turned 50 in Jan 1975, and both ACL and Chicago began in May/June 1975.

McKechnie was 45 when she returned to the role on Broadway. I'm not advocating for Verdon because it was obviously a joke, but there is not a whole lot to the Cassie role. If you could get through those six minutes, you could get through the show.

Interestingly, though Verdon never did Cassie, Ann Reinking did. She replaced McKechnie on Broadway when McKechnie left to do the West Coast company, and when Leland Palmer had her breakdown after one performance in LA (she replaced McKechnie when McKechnie finally left), Reinking was rushed out to take over, and she played it for a few weeks in LA as well.

The one thing that stood out was Reinking singing Cassie's lines in Hello Twelve, Hello Thirteen ("Am I your friend, am I your friend," etc) down in her baritone range, when McKechnie had sung them up in her soprano range.

r327

what happened with leland palmer?

Apparently "Marsha Mason" turned up in episode 4 - how did I miss her? I must have blinked.

R327, the line is "A diaphragm, a diaphragm, I thought a diaphragm was up here"

Reinking was brought into LA when McKechnie left the company. The original plan was to have her step back into the NY company and then conveniently have her go in with the "new" London company, which didn't work out. Vicki Frederick did the part when Reinking was in LA and when the McKechnie drama played out, he swapped Frederick and Reinking. Vicki did it for a while until Bennett got Leland to play the role, which was indeed about one or two performances but she quit and Bennett never directed her or even saw her. He was clearly bored with this company by then and allowed the original tour understudy, Renata Vasselle to go on indefinitely. When she gave notice, the part went to nobody Pamela Peadon who finished out the run.

Pamela Peadon.....

Who got peed on?

Gwen Verdon was doing "Chicago at the same time as "A Chorus Line", plus Gwen is already in the script of "A Chorus Line" being acknowledged as a legend: one of the girls says "I want to be the next Gwen Verdon" or something like that. So Gwen herself being in the show would have been kind of weird.

I saw Ann Reinking take over as Cassie; for some reason, she fell during "The Music and the Mirror". I know she wasn't able to sing in McKechnie's soprano keys, but also, the dance was made to order for Donna's body and didn't really suit the very different build of Reinking.

Was Gwen considered an old lady in the '70s?

"the dance was made to order for Donna's body and didn't really suit the very different build of Reinking."

That seems to be the general consensus

Gwen was still doing a cartwheel in "Chicago", so no. But she was considered older in comparison to the younger Chita, which is why Chita was given more to do dance-wise in "Chicago", while Gwen was clearly the lead in the plot and acting scenes.

Gwen knew her dancing days were numbered, which is why she was so eager to get Chicago up then. It wasn’t a matter of not being able to do steps, but of stamina. She just didn’t have it in her to sustain a dancing role like Charity (or Essie or Anna or Lola) by the mid-70s, and knew that five years later she’d be even more restricted. Even in her prime, she would occasionally have one of her numbers dropped from a performance to give her a break (in “Charity,” it was usually Where Am I Going). She always kept the big dancing routines, because she knew people were coming to see her dance.

In a way, it’s really a shame that Children, Children was such a stinker. If she could have affirmed her viability as a non-dancing actress at that point, it could have changed the course of her career after Chicago.

Isn't there also a line about her being older than she ever thought she would be?

Yes.

I always heard she started dropping Where Am I Going due to not just stamina, but because Streisand recorded a cover of it and Gwen was embarrassed to be compared to Streisand's vocals.

Why embarrassed? Wasn't she a musical theater diva in her own right?

She dropped a number from Redhead periodically, too. (It’s in one of the books which one it was, but I can’t recall). She was stopped on the street by a woman who had seen the show and told her how disappointed she was that she hadn’t seen “the full show” the night she was there. Gwen whipped out her checkbook and wrote her a check for a couple of bucks, and said “This should cover it.”

R342, she was known as trying to drop seven songs from a performance of Redhead.

Fosse's last girlfriend was Phoebe Ungerer and she was shown only briefly. They were living together and she found out he died on the news. Verdon pretended to like her when he was alive but when he died, she turned on her. She gave her one day to get her cat, her belongings, everything out of the house.

Did you see the reference to Ann Reinking's gay boyfriend. They even identified him. Charles as in Charles Ward who died of AIDS. Nice show.

weird question but did Ann Reinking smoke as well? They showed lots of people smoking but not her

Fosse had an alluring twinkle in his eye and sophisticated charm in the clips of interviews with him that just does not come through in this series. Even though he was a tortured soul with addictions to drugs and sex, he was also very talented. With all his success there must have been some good times but unfortunately we never get to see them.. Obsessed as he was, he couldn’t have spent every moment in theaters and studios (and in bed). One of the articles linked to above showed a photo of him at Disneyland with Gwen and their daughter.

I don’t think Gwen liked any of the girlfriends. Probably she was smart enough to know the way to stay in touch with Bob and on good terms with him was to kiss up to the girlfriends. Maybe by the time of the last girlfriend, she had just had it with being accommodating to one much younger woman after another and she was tired of pretending.

If anything in that series is true, it’s probably that Gwen still wanted to be with him, but in his mind, Gwen had aged out of the leading lady role in his personal life. Which was bound to cause resentment in Gwen. It’s still mean that she blamed it on his last girlfriend though.

Gwen comes off as selfish and narcissistic in a lot of this too. It wasn’t only Bob. Having a lot of charisma and being selfish are not mutually exclusive.

Interesting that her daughter was a big part of it. She doesn’t make either parent look like a particularly lovable person. More like a couple of narcissists that had a kid. She must be bitter, but I can’t really blame her because she seems like an afterthought.

Reinking knew Ward was gay. Everyone did but Fosse suspected them of having an affair during Dancin when they moved in together. In Martin Gottfried's bio, he said that everyone was worried about Fosse's obsession with Ann after she left him, presumably for a gay guy.

There was one earlier girlfriend that Verdon seemed to like. She was one Fosse was cheating on with while he was with Reinking. She and Reinking got into a big fight in the hospital and Gwen sort of refereed it and broke it up. At the funeral, she thanked Gwen about the incident and she closed her eyes and smiled, as if she were remembering a very special moment.

Okay, so does LMM now do one on Michael Bennett and Donna McKechnie?

The real Bob Fosse directing

Fosse obit

Maybe Gwen was a narcissist, too (there is a school of thought that says pretty much any performer or artist is to some degree), but at least she seemed a bit more lovable. I always feel like, to be diagnosed as a true narcissist, one must have almost zero empathy and genuinely not care about how they treat others. I don't think Verdon or Fosse really had this. I think they seemed to know when they screwed up.

There was an anecdote that Ben Vereen told about Pippin. On the first day of rehearsal, Fosse worked the dancers in the morning on one routine. They broke for lunch and when they came back they started doing the same routine again. One of the dancers complained, "Are we doing this again?" and was promptly fired.

Also, I don't think this show portrays Fosse choreography very well. The dance sequences look more like standard American theater dancing. Fosse choreography was elbows, knees and hats.

[quote]One of the dancers complained, "Are we doing this again?" and was promptly fired.

Why was he fired?

R354, for cooking the burgers too long, Rose.

If they had just put that little shine in Bob’s eyes to capture his humor & passion, this show might have been better.

[quote]what happened with leland palmer?

This came directly from her: She had begun to be disenchanted and unsatisfied with her show business career as early as "Pippin," (there were some issues with Stephen Schwartz, who sped up "Spread a Little Sunshine" after recording, giving her what she felt was a 'Minnie Mouse voice'), and after she filmed Ken Russell's Valentino, began to seriously consider leaving the business altogether. The feelings grew during rehearsals for A Chorus Line, and after one performance (it was only one), that was it. She called Michael Bennett and said she couldn't do it anymore. She was done. Bennett was quite supportive, and told her to take the time she needed, and the job would be there for her when she was ready to return. She told him she doubted she would return. She was living in LA at that point, and got a job in senior care. She'd been working at that for several months when Fosse called. He wanted her to play Audrey/Gwen in "All That Jazz," and thought it would be terrific if she could follow Ann Reinking into "Chicago," and play Roxie for a couple of months before they began filming. She initially turned him down, explaining she had left the business, but he flew her back to NY to meet with him about it. She finally said yes to the film, but refused to go into "Chicago." As it turned out, she had a wonderful time shooting "All That Jazz," because there were no stakes in it for her as far as advancing her career - just to do a good job for its own sake. It didn't ultimately matter to her if the film were a big hit or not (of course, it was). By the time it was released, she was back working in senior care.

About three years later, she was happily out of the business, when her father died, and in the process of dealing with that, discovered she was Jewish. Her father had changed the family name in the 1930s (well before she was born) from "Posner" to "Palmer" so they wouldn't have to face anti-Semitism. (Her birth name was Linda Palmer. Because there had been a Linda Palmer in AEA already, she became "Lee Lynn Palmer" originally, and then "Leland" which is what everyone called her). So that led to her multi-year discovery of her Jewish identity, living in Israel, and then back to the US to go to school to become an interfaith minister dealing with elder care.

Did anyone else think the portrayal of Ann Reinking was closer to a portrayal of Shelley Duvall? Something about the voice.

I think she was trying to mimic Reinking’s strange accent but it just sounded like mumbles.

Whatever. Which famous person’s daughter is she again? *eyeroll*

[quote]closer to a portrayal of Shelley Duvall? Something about the voice.

It was Reinking's voice - she was very successful at mimicking it. (Try listening to Reinking in "Goodtime Charley" for an example of what it sounded like when she was young). Reinking was especially happy with that casting, because Margaret Qualley is a trained dancer. She's Andie McDowell's daughter, and she's got several films coming up, including a major supporting role (as a member of the Manson girls) in "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood."

Nepotism is so boring. That Ted Bundy movie died every time Phil Collins’ charmless daughter came on screen.

I used to think Nepotism was a pharaoh in Ancient Egypt

Leland Palmer has lived such a fascinating life.

I thought she was terrific in All That Jazz and she probably would have had a long and successful career in the biz if she had stayed. Maybe not an A-list star but lots of guest parts, character roles and Broadway shows.

It really goes to show that showbiz is not for everyone.

Well, a more sympathetic Bobby Fosse finally showed up in the final episode. I’ll get killed for saying this, but it seemed liked the scene with Miranda sparked something in Rockwell to come alive.

That Verdon story about compensating the complaining customer is funny but I think I read a version that it happened via a letter to the theatre and Verdon refunded an amount she calculated as to how much the cut song cost out of the ticket price.

The guy playing Jerry Orbach sounded nothing like him.

Maybe this will be better.

Alvin Ailey is more obscure than Fosse.

Didn't Obama give Ailey the Presidential Medal of Freedom just before his term ended?

[quote]she was known as trying to drop seven songs from a performance of Redhead.

Uh-huh. What’s your source for that? Essie is only in nine numbers, and that includes her three big dance routines. The idea that Verdon would cut, or try to cut, all but two of them is ridiculous in the extreme.

[quote]Nepotism is so boring. That Ted Bundy movie died every time Phil Collins’ charmless daughter came on screen.

I doubt Andie McDowell has the pull to get her daughter a studio parking space, much less a major supporting role in a mini-series. The casting call went out for actresses who were dancers, and that right there cut the talent bank down.

I think the Redhead problems between Verdon and composer Albert Hague occurred in out-of-town tryouts .

[quote]Critics are loving it. So fuck off.

Who the fuck listens to critics? Who can't figure out what they enjoy? Intelligent people can usually decide what they do or do not like, be it music, books, films and TV series.

Rockwell was a terrible choice for Fosse. He's a very limited actor.

R371, it's in both the Wasson and Gottfried book. It was in Washington and there were numerous times when they had to change dialogue because she was dropping numbers. Hague wanted to complain to the Dramatist Guild but realized that it might result in closing the show.

In Redhead, Verdon also had orchestrations made in lower keys so they were easier for her to sing but when there was a professional audience, like a benefit, she sang in the higher key.

Interesting. Wasn't Albert Hauge on Fame, which Verdon guest-starred on in 1982? I wonder if they spoke to each other.

Verdon particularly objected to the song The Carpet Doesn't Match The Drapes which I think Hauge and Dorothy Fields wrote cos they were pissed at her.

^^ is that for real??!! ^^

WTF, was there also a show-stopping first act closer called Fire Crotch?

There was no tension between Hague and Verdon in "Redhead." The only issues out of town were with the Act Two opening (a chorus number called "You Might Be Next" that was finally cut, though it's in the rental version of the show) and the big love ballad. Neither Verdon nor Kiley was thrilled with how "It Doesn't Take a Minute" was playing, so Hague and Fields wrote "Look Who's in Love" and it was an immediate hit. That was it. Everything else was pretty harmonious.

There were some issues with one of the "Simpson Sisters" but I can't remember what he told me exactly (I worked with him 30 years after Redhead). Other than that, he loved the whole experience. The show was a big, Tony-winning hit for almost everyone involved, so a good time was literally had by all.

Re the carpet not matching the drapes, I know that was a joke, but in fact the show revolves around Verdon's character, Essie Whimple, being drab. She has mousy brown hair when the show starts, and only becomes the redhead of the title midway through Act One (although, actually, the title is not a reference to Essie but to the identity of the killer). So there actually could have been a song called "The Carpet Doesn't Match The Drapes" and it would have been accurate to the book.

This show caused me to revisit A Chorus Line The Movie. Poor Nicole Fosse is always pushed to the back when dancing in a group. Was she not as expert as her parents?

In the show, Gwen made a huge deal about doing Chicago so that Nicole had an income. Was she not a good dancer?

No, talent is not hereditary. She probably finally figured that out.

[quote]No, talent is not hereditary.

Eff you, r382. I am as talented as both my parents. That's why everyone is always trying to put me in jail. To hide my true talent.

Can you imagine the child of Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon having no talent? You couldn’t get more talented parents!

R377, Al and Gwen did anal in front of the cast to ease the tension.

[quote]Al and Gwen did anal in front of the cast to ease the tension.

No. That was just Debbie Allen's pitiful choreography.

Every year, it used to be a joke that Debbie Allen was going to do another lousy dance number on the Oscars.

And Debbie never failed to disappoint. She suckled.

Why did they keep asking her back?

The actor/composer's name was Albert HAGUE. Albert died November 2001 of cancer.

"Songwriter ("Young and Foolish") and composer, educated at the Royal Conservatory of St. Cecilia in Rome (on scholarship) with Dante Alderighi and at the University of Cincinnati (on scholarship) with Sidney Durst. He served in the USAF during World War II. On Broadway, he wrote songs for the musical "Dance Me a Song", and incidental music to the plays "The Madwoman of Chaillot", "All Summer Long", and "Jennie". He composed the stage scores to "Plain and Fancy" and to "redhead" (Tony and Grammy awards, 1959). Joining ASCAP in 1952, his chief musical collaborators included Arnold Horwitt and Dorothy Fields. His popular-song compositions also include "Wait For Me Darling", "One Is a Lonely Number", "This Is All Very New to Me", "Follow Your Heart", "Plenty of Pennsylvania", "Merely Marvelous", "Look Who's in Love", "My Girl Is Just Enough Woman for Me", ""Two Faces in the Dark", "Just for Once", "Telephone Book", and "Tell Irene Hello"."

Nicole seems bitter about her parents, her career, her lack of talent.

I wonder what Fosse and Verdon would have thought of Fosse/Verdon if they were alive.

My favorite "Plain and Fancy" number, with the divine Shirl Conway

Nicole isn't lacking talent, based on the slight evidence (the movie of "A Chorus Line," her TV appearances) we have. She was the child of two theatrical superstars, and it's possible she realized it was just not the life she wanted for herself. She would never be as brilliant as her mother or father. Good for her for recognizing that and getting away from it.

Ann Reinking had quite a body, well-fleshed and muscular and strong. She had a lot of meat on her bones. The actress who played her looked frail and anorexic. It was distracting.

After watching this I didn't get the impression this series portrayed Bob Fosse as an awful person. He was deeply flawed; his sexual exploitation by those horrible strippers in the burlesque houses where he had to perform basically ruined him when it came to having relationships with women. His promiscuity was no doubt also a result of that. He was deeply insecure and conflicted and had a hard time enjoying his success even at its most spectacular. He was an unhappy man. But he was also a brilliant dancer, choreographer and director. He was well liked and well loved by many. He was a lot of things. But a truly bad person? I don't think he was.

His death might not have occurred if help had arrived in a timely fashion. It took 20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. A well meaning bystander tried to help by pounding on his chest, prompting him to cry out "please stop!" If he'd gotten to a hospital quickly he may well have survived. I wish he had lived at least 20 more years, still putting out great shows and interesting movies.

[quote]She was the child of two theatrical superstars, and it's possible she realized it was just not the life she wanted for herself.

That was the impression I got with the ending. They say that Nicole had substance abuse problems and then moved to a farm and raised a family. So once she got out of New York and the show biz life, she probably "found" herself.

Who was the original director of Sweet Charity revival that Bob had to replace? Has Debbie Allen commented on how she's portrayed in the show? It must be a bit embarrassing that she had to have Gwen's performance pushed in her face.

R314 isn't that the guy from "Cruising"?

I love this fiction that Nicole Fosse “got out.” Got out of what? She barely had a career. What else was there for her to do but go have a family out of the city?

[quote]I love this fiction that Nicole Fosse “got out.” Got out of what?

You need reading comprehension. Various posters have been pretty explicit about her getting out OF NEW YORK and THEATRICAL LIFE. The only way to cure herself from her demons was to divorce herself from being part of a "theatrical dynasty." But you obviously have this particular narrative regarding her that you're trying to set forth, so go ahead. It doesn't have any relation to reality, but go for it.

[quote]His death might not have occurred if help had arrived in a timely fashion.

It might also not have occurred (when it did) if he had heeded the warning of his heart attack and stopped smoking and drinking (especially smoking).

I was expecting a call to play Miss Jessica Lange for the ALL THAT JAZZ sequence. People used to mistake us for each on the lot all the time back in the day. It still happens, but I fear her plastic surgery has made her a little plastique fantastique.

Nicole also didn't start training for dance and acting until relatively late, in her early teens. As seen in ACL, she had a sweet, plangent quality and was respectable in the movie but had little chance to be a star. But as noted, Lisa Mordente got a Tony Nomination, so it's probably not as hard as all that. Lisa had Tony Mordente and Chita Rivera as parents and she is one of the least talented performers you'd ever see.

Wow. Is Nicole Fosse herself now posting on Datalounge? You did a shitty job representing your family with Fosse/Verdon, Nicole! Just as shitty as your rediculous IMDB page which includes All That Jazz and a Raquel Welch workout tape!

Nicole doesn't need show biz, she has the rights to "Chicago" which has brought a 20 year and counting NY run, London, all over the world, tours all over the US, regional runs, high school runs, and the movie rights. She wins.

So she's being supported by show biz, but, yeah, she still wins.

Speaking of Raquel, r402, what the hell is this movie? I've never heard of it, let alone seen it. Shelley, Kaye Ballard, and way down in the credits, Miss Raquel!

"A House Is Not a Home" is loosely based on the autobiography of madam Polly Adler, played in the movie by DL fave Shelley Winters. Raquel has a small role as a call girl.

Miss Dionne Warwick recorded the movie's title song, written by Burt Bacharach and Hal David.

Michelle Williams on playing Gwen

Gwen looked like a transvestite.

I didn't think it was profoundly disappointing OP, I thought it was fantastic.

I liked it better than FEUD and I loved FEUD.

I finally watched the series.

It should have been four episodes instead of eight.

Williams was amazing, some of the best acting ever.

While Fosse came across as a dick, Gwen only looked good in comparison. I thought they made her out to be very manipulative. She was going to nag Bob into doing Chicago (because she wanted to be back on Broadway) even if it, literally, killed him. And then they made it clear that she was too old for the role anyway.

Listening to those two pirated audio clips of "Roxie," Liza is MUCH better, both her acting and singing.

I'm no Liza fan but Gwen should have been worried about being replaced with someone like Liza.

Was the note Liza left on the mirror real? "Thank you for letting me fill your shoes, darling."

That seems very rude. The polite thing would be to write to a Broadway legend is "Thank you for letting me try to fill your shoes, darling." Even if you had done more than that.

No wonder Gwen ditched it in the trash.

[quote]I'm no Liza fan but Gwen should have been worried about being replaced with someone like Liza.

She was worried. Per the TV series, but also the book. She was not happy that Fosse engineered the whole "superstar fills in" thing, although as a producing partner, she appreciated the huge bump gave to their finances.