What metrics indicates a bad college or university?

If I recall, the most important metrics are rates of alumni giving and career services/job placement.

This is what elitism looks like.

She is generally right. But when it comes to state schools - which I’m assuming is a land grant school - there can be some very bright and ambitious kids mixed in with the masses (ex, CUNY in NYC). Low SAT and high acceptance rate are generally the same thing.

In terms of giving, I doubt I would give to a state school - unless I was loaded and wanted recognition. Endowments and giving are more of a private school thing I would think.

[quote]when it comes to state schools - which I’m assuming is a land grant school

Why would you assume that? Only some state schools are land grant.

Are land grant schools all state schools? What are they then?

What was her PhD in OP?

She has an elite education but no steady job. Ouch.

If it is more difficult to get into a school, that means the students are smarter and the classes can be taught to a higher level.

It's also a great networking thing, your classmates will go on to be largely successful and create a professional network for you.

I thought every state had at least one college that had to accept everyone from that state who wanted to go to college

Yes, r9. The University of Phoenix.

High acceptance rate is an indicator of selectivity, the more people that can get in, the less demanding the minimum criteria for admission.

Prestige/quality of US institutions is easy to find out - as these ranks are established by the Carnegie Classification. The most prestigious schools are those that rank as either R1 (top tier research universities) or Bacc Universities (liberal arts colleges).

There is great difference of opinion as to what makes a "good" institution, esp. at the undergraduate level. But in reality, the most important metrics: graduation rate (esp. within 4 years) and job placement (esp. w/in 6 months).

Anyone too stupid to realize as college graduate/customers they are complicit pawns in the biggest ripoff going are too retarded to bother with. Your cousin's brain doesn't work right.

She sounds insufferable. Some college gave her a chance to further her education and now she won't give back to them because of "high acceptance rate." It's like the saying, "I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."

I have no qualms about not giving. My grad school was huge and I had no connection to it - got a degree that wasn’t cheap that got me ahead. Undergrad LAC was more influential and meaningful - emotionally I would give to it if I had a lot of extra money or when I die.

But the big game with college giving is it’s rarely altruistic. 80%+ do it so their kids will have a better chance of getting in. I find the idea of giving to be wholly illogical and inequitable as a single gay man without kids - given how many other needs there are - even in my own family,

"Return on investment" is the metric used in most articles I've seen.

88%?!! holy shit, my employer’s acceptance rate is 26% and i thought that was high.

r15 “ROI” is so utilitarian and dreary... people who don’t want a well-rounded education, to learn to live on their own or to think for themselves should just find a vocational program.

R3 you are correct that it is a state university. It's one of the ones that makes you scratch your head. Somehow it is land-grant but at the same time it does almost no research in agriculture.

R4 in order for a school to be land grant it must make an agreement with the federal govt and state to do some work in agriculture. Therefore, nearly all land grant universities ARE state universities. The reverse is not true.

Usually they are R5.

R6 Sociology. Her's is closer to a public policy admin specialty .

R7 she doesn't need one. Her husband is an entrepreneur and uses her to get grant money. I told you she's a grifter.

R13 she refuses to give back to her undergraduate university, not her graduate university which is a big name school. She is umm... I wouldn't say insufferable, but yes she's definitely Elitist . Her rankings are : the Ivies > The Public Ivies ~California System > Big 10 > The Sec >>>> Everyone else is fodder (> is greater than symbol). HEr undergraduate university is something you would have to actively google to know about. I think it's an inferiority thing.

R11 That was always my understanding, not all this bs she was spewing.

Whatever the ranking/selectivity of her UNDERGRAD degree makes little difference in the academic job market for PhDs -- there it depends on prestige of the GRADUATE program, sure, but more importantly the work you've done in the program and the sponsors you've cultivated.

I’m 46...I went to Sonoma State University, a state school in Northern California. I have a BA degree in a field I never worked in. I’ve never been traditionally employed and do not come from a monied family. I have well over a million in investments producing more money...this is not a brag. I have what many would consider a mediocre education. But I’ve succeeded in my life doing what I want to do out of persistence, creativity, and being willing to do what others would not do. I could be worth more money but I’ve decided to take an easier road now. It’s not the school you go to: it’s how you create opportunities and move forward and be persistent. And...I give money every year to SSU to help with scholarships. I value the education I received and I want to pay it forward.

What matters are the professors. A karge state University may be equally as good as a well known private college

I agree R19, it doesn't matter where you go to school, it's the opportunities you are presented with and how hard you work at them that matters. I know a man who, as an undergraduate, completed research and presented his work in artificial intelligence at a conference. He was graduated from the University of Toledo. He received his job over candidates who attended Harvard and Columbia. (His new boss told me.) They didn't have the knowledge he gathered when he was at college.

Op, unless your cousin has the good fortune of applying her Ph.D in true clinical/R&D environment, rather than as a consultant, your cousin's degree is worthless.

R19 I am similar to you in terms of why I give. I ear mark my donations not for scholarships but for travel grants for people who cant afford to go to SEPA or similar conferences. R20 and r21 I concur. I have met some people who have never went to college who have 100x business acumen than people applauding themselves for having an MBA.

R22 I think that money grubbing strumpet is ok with that. She really only got the degree to brag about doing it and to use it to write grants. I won't go into specifics but she pocketed well over 600,000 being a clever grifter. She pretends to be Anti-Trump but she pulled a Chuck Grassley. Like I said, she's a calculating douche.

It is not WHERE you go to grad school that ultimately matters. It is WHAT YOU ACCOMPLISH in your program that counts.

A new PhD with numerous publications in esteemed journals along with cutting edge research will be far likelier to get hired to teach at an Ivy League than some schmuck who did average work at Stanford.

Your cousin is an idiot.

r24 to an extent. But in some fiends (like history), 50% percent of tenure track positions go to candidates who earned their doctorate from a top 8 program.

These numbers may be slightly off -- I can't remember exactly -- but not by much.

R24 I concur in part. I know anthropology is largely based on where you go and who is your thesis director. I had a friend believe otherwise, and he had to go get a second degree in biology. He works in forensics now. My classmate from high school who went to UC- Berkley is about to be a professor in the next 2 or so years.

Yeah R26 I assume the same is true for anthropology or similar fields. I was wondering is the ~90% acceptance rate with low ACT/SAT metrics alarming or no ? I'm more curious about that. When ur upper limit is below a 22 on the ACT that's some scary shit IMO.

low retention rate of first-year students

This is a guarantee

What are the top 8 programs, R26? Who created the designation?

R19 has a couple rental properties - BFD

Selectivity is a good criteria. Average ACT/SAT score. Student loan default rate is telling as well.

R32 s what does the default rate tell ?

Why is she bothering with her old university? Why would anyone give any money to their former university (unless they are hoping it will help their dumb kids get accepted)?

They accepted her dumb ass. Why are you bothering to engage with this stupid bitch?

R33 - effectively the cash flow generating capacity of the degree. An overpriced degree from a shitty school will have no market value in the real world and assuming the grad has no other means of support, the low quality education will express itself as a loan default.

I have a CC + state school undergrad plus an elite grad degree.

I'd donate to the state school first, preferably into a scholarship fund of some sort. The students need the money more. My grad school has a $7.5 billion endowment. They don't need any more money.

Oh, and in an icky-picky employer job market, graduating from an elite school, or having too much education, can be a hindrance. Employers will make rude comments and ridiculous assumptions based on anti-intellectualism, class anxiety, etc. What they fail to recognize is that any elite grad looking for a normal job (as opposed to the job that their parents or connections got them), had to work really hard to get into that elite school.

Even average students need and should get a proper education. Not every student is a genius, but they are still entitled to a good education and a college that accepts even those students. It is just so ridiculous to not give to an university that accepts average students. She should be proud that the school provides an opportunity for "normal" students. We can't all be rocket scientists.

I transferred from a community college to a continuing education program at a prestigious university. I won a scholarship. I was awarded a Pell Grant. I participated in an experimental honors program with talented adult continuing education students. In conjunction with the program, I met and studied with the undergraduate honors students in the day school. Many these honors students, all 18-23 years old at the time of the experience, later earned impressive PhDs, JDs, MDs, and some now staff the most prestigious departments of big name schools.

Despite the success of the day students, the evening students were almost unfairly more capable and robust in their studies, writing, and discussion. This despite the fact that most adult students lacked the seemingly standard prep school education and high levels of social, economic, and cultural capital of the day students.

I don't doubt that some or even all of the evening students' advantage results from the recognition, gained from a life of hard knocks and tough breaks, of the precious chances educational opportunities represent.

No matter the setting, students like the adult continuing education students with whom I studied likely exist. Any such setting deserves support. Ignoring this truth because of a sense of superiority is a regrettable act, maybe even reflective of self-loathing of a person's own background and experience.

I suspect someone once among a cohort of non-elite students who nevertheless achieved the success of a big name PhD would understand from her own experience the preciousness of educational opportunities and the exquisiteness of the struggle to reach the same opportunities as those with every capitalistic advantage. To turn her back on her own experience is to betray us.

OP's cousin should read Returning to Reims.

R34 you can't divorce family. Every family gathering she shows up b/c her father (the eldest) can't drive and she uses it as an excuse to show off how great she's done. You seem to think I jump at the opportunity to talk to her, I don't. This convo happened weeks ago around Mother's Day, but it was a theme (academic elitism) that she recycles over and over... ! The only new thing she added was her staunch stipulation that high acceptance rates = horrid school. That was the one that made me go WTF !? Seriously !??? I asked her how she explains her own "success" given she went to the school in question. She basically attributed it to her Grad. School which to me is some flawed logic given her undergrad degree literally helped her get into the grad school as well as allow her to work. Her undergrad school needs the money , her grad school doesn't. As I stated previous, it's a political move as I assume she's going to use her grad school connections for grant writing purposes. Again, I care less about her motives and truth and more about the idea that : high acceptance rate = bad school. My cousin is not unique in this belief, so regardless if she is a dumbass, snob, or just insecure charlatan it does not change this idea is shared by others. Thus, I chose to ask other people for their input even if the catalyst for the question is from an insecure person.

R39/R40 I'm well aware she hasn't gotten over her childhood insecurities and is an elitist with an overly developed ego. I am less curious about her motives and was more curious about was there any merit to her claims. I'll give her the book for Xmas.

Yeah R36 my undergrad doesn't need the money either. I give directly to my former department which sponsor's undergrad research.

[Quote]you can't divorce family.

Many people have divorced family.

So she pontificates like this at family gatherings where some in attendance may have themselves (or their children) gone to lower tier schools? What an insufferable jackass. Why does this blowhard assume anyone GAF where she went to school (she's old now right?)?

My son went to an out of state state school. A good one and he is very successful now (although more due to hustle and grit than from his degree). Anyway, as an out of state student, he sat right next to in-state students in his classes who got the same education, but paid one quarter the cost. Oh well, it was our choice to do it. But when they call me now for money, I just tell them I already opened up my veins and gave gallons of blood. I'm not giving them one drop more.

Don't give money to colleges and universities. They're loaded. And they mismanage their funds anyway. Way too much of the budget gets funneled to top heavy administrations. Set up specific scholarships instead to benefit needy kids directly.

A fundraiser from my college took me out for lunch (thinking I had money) and told me I would never have been accepted there today. He thought this was a selling point.

You know, I'm really grateful for the input in this thread. MY original question about bad metrics blossomed into something else. I've always knows the bottom line of most schools is $$$ , but god damn after hearing some of ya'lls stories it's like a scam in a way. I'm grateful for my education , but these solicitation practices are only a few degrees removed from Trump University.

College is very simple.

You have to get a degree in a field where well-paying jobs are plentiful. That includes healthcare, technology, engineering, computers.

A PhD in Navajo Basket Weaving or Womyns’ Studies is worth less than a piece of toilet paper.

State schools probably produce better graduates because half the morons at the good schools are only there because their families are wealthy and give $$$ for access. The US school system is the worst,

I can't wait until the whole higher education bubble bursts in the U.S. Like the housing crisis, it is being largely ignored, but it cannot go on forever. The recent college admissions scandal is just the beginning. It is a long overdue unraveling of this huge racket, driven by skyrocketing debt, bad loans, and admissions practices that have led to it.

I already hear my coworkers who have Gen Z kids in college, or are trying to send them. These kids do not want careers that require college, and their parents don't want to pay for it. They have grown up watching people get wealthy via social media. Once the demand declines, the whole business model that has pumped all that borrowed money into schools will collapse.

Students can get a great education at any college or university, whether it's a state school or a private institution. Frank Rich wrote a book on it a few years ago, and he is right. I teach at a private university that is not in the top tier of schools. The faculty have PhDs from a wide range of universities, both Ivy League and non-Ivy League. Most are very intelligent and dedicated. Students receive have the opportunity to learn a wide range of subjects and skills that they can put to use in careers and jobs after they graduate.

The students have to want to learn. They must do the work.

My undergraduate institution has a lower acceptance average than when I applied. Young women and men who apply to colleges today need to understand that there are so many other colleges and universities where they will get educations on par with the select few.

Any place that has City or County in its name.

She sounds like a self-important bitch.