GAME OF THRONES, Episode 8.5, 5/12/19

Please no spoilers, if you have them.

The penultimate episode, the show is so close to being over. Weird to think about.

I guess Sansa is pretty safe back at Winterfell. It's weird to think she'll likely be alive at the end of all this.

Tonight, on General Hospital: Daenerys will be the Maddest Queen she's been all season Jon Snow will run through his entire collection of conflicted facial expressions Tyrion won't have anything intelligent to say Varys will glare meaningfully at Daenerys, but wait until the next episode to act. Because that's how foreshadowing works, y'all. Despite having claimed to be heading north, Tormund Giantsbane will show up and kill the Mountain, saving his close friend the Hound from certain death (also, Giantsbane, get it?) Ghost (the youngest male direwolf pup of the litter) will jump on Cersei and tear her throat out, avenging his older sister Lady, and fulfilling a plotline laid down in season 1. As the "younger brother," it's fan service for book readers too, so be thankful already.

Tonight, on General Hospital:

Daenerys will be the Maddest Queen she's been all season

Jon Snow will run through his entire collection of conflicted facial expressions

Tyrion won't have anything intelligent to say

Varys will glare meaningfully at Daenerys, but wait until the next episode to act.

Because that's how foreshadowing works, y'all.

Despite having claimed to be heading north, Tormund Giantsbane will show up and kill the Mountain, saving his close friend the Hound from certain death (also, Giantsbane, get it?)

Ghost (the youngest male direwolf pup of the litter) will jump on Cersei and tear her throat out, avenging his older sister Lady, and fulfilling a plotline laid down in season 1. As the "younger brother," it's fan service for book readers too, so be thankful already.

How has this episode already got more than a thousand user votes on IMDb, with a rating of 7.1? Has it leaked already?

That's common, these troll types love swarming the ratings of something before it comes out r6.

Rotten Tomatoes had to finally stop allowing people do that. Captain Marvel getting hammered by the ratings long before it came out was the last straw for them. I guess IMDB hasn't decided to do the same yet.

Veep ends tonight and the Eurovision final takes place on the same night as the series finale next week. GoT is going to suck the air out of both of them, so that sucks.

I can't believe we're a week away from the End.

[quote]Eurovision final takes place on the same night as the series finale next week. GoT is going to suck the air out of both of them, so that sucks.

Euron needs to survive until the finale to honor the time he hosted Eurovision.

r9 Damn, I had no idea! What a small world.

I have no idea what will happen, but why do I have the feeling that ironically no one will endup on the throne. There won't be one monarch leading all the realms. Hurray for the Republic !

A fan edited the scene of Rhaegal getting shot to make it a less stupid.

I don't think GoT can suck anything away from Veep, they're on the same channel, at different times. People who like both will watch both. I have never met anyone in my life who gives a rat's ass about the Euro Vision Song contest. I dunno what life there is to suck from it.

Behave now; European audiences watch GoT as well and the Eurovision is huge here. But it ends just when GoT starts so it should be fine, I think.

That was a good job. It ended too soon, should have stayed on Dany's face, the angry face she made when she was dive bombing towards Euron.

If the dragons are that vulnerable to the scorpions, Dany should have Drogon burn them all at night when they cannot see her (but Drogon could see the stations all over the city walls).

R12, that video shows how lazy the writers and showrunners are. That fan's minor edits made more sense, although it still wouldn't answer why when Dragonstone is so close to King's Landing, she wouldn't have done a reconnaissance fly around from a safe distance when she knows those scorpions exist. Still, it shows how just a bit more thought would have made all the difference.

R16, I've said that so many times to my friends who also watch the show. An attack at night to wipe out the scorpions makes far more sense. So many plot holes.

Continuing from previous thread...More feedback from actors about how good the last season is!

Euron looks like he's taking a big shit when he pulls the trigger on the scorpion.

I am expecting of there are major deaths in the next two episodes most of them will be tonight.

George RR Martin has often expressed his love of the chapter at the end of the lord of the Rings called "The Scouring of the Shire," and has said he wished Tolkien had devoted more time to the nuts and bolts of how Aragorn could possibly rule Middle-Earth. So I expect the final episode next week will be devoted to how everything is divvied up after tonight's gigantic battle.

Yeah tonight is going to be a blood bath. Cersei and Jaime at least will for sure be dead by the end of the episode.

R20, don't expect much. The Scouring of the Shire is enjoyable material for GRRM to roll around in his head, but world mechanics, character motivations, and future repercussions are elements that D&D consistently dump.

The city has to fall tonight, but I wouldn't be surprised if they save Cersei's death for next week. Just so they can give the Burlington Bar crowd something to scream about.

Just about now

Is there another thread? Where is everybody?

Jaime, Cersei, varys, the Hound are toast this episode.

Plus all the people Drogon roasts.

Bring it!

I’m just starting it now on the west coast.

Who was that little girl Varys was speaking to?

Sounds like Dany is going to have Sansa and Varys killed.

r27 Just a random little bird, I imagine.

I should say, that's my guess at r25, not spoilers. I haven't been reading them

Hmm. Tyrion deliberately betraying Varys. Not a good look.

I mean Varys is literally committing treason and trying to undo Dany r31.

But Tyrion kind of set him up, R32.

Yeah, and he said he's still unsure of what side of the coin Dany is- sounds like he's pretty damn sure to me.

He thinks she's going to go crazy.

They should play that coo-coo crazy music whenever they have a close-up on Dany they used to play on 24 when they had close-ups of Martha Logan

Varys has been such a non entity for so long that I don't even care he's about to die.

Getting roasted would be a horrible way to die. Couldn't she have had him killed more mercifully?

One of my favorite varys lines was I think in season 4 when he was talking to Tyrion (? Can't remember, it's been so long) about the next ruler and Tyrion asks where they will find him and Vary asks, 'Who said anything about him?'

That was cool, knowing he was going to back Dany for the throne.

Well, now Dany has alienated Jon. This is going quickly.

They don't have time to waste! Gotta wrap this up.

The dialogue between Tyrion and Jaime is awful.

Yeah. This is lame

For a second there, NCW's Danish accent came out.

Because its stupid r41. This is like the 8th time they have Tyrion "trusting Cersei to do the right thing"

Alright, that was kind of sweet. But of course that means Tyrion will never see Jaime alive again.

Why wouldn't Arya have changed her face when she walked through Kings Landing?

R46, how many people in KL remember what Arya looks like as an adult? She wouldn't need to camouflage for a bunch of people who don't know who she is?

Would the people of KL know who she is? She was last there as a ten year old

Hound and Jaime look gooood in those hoods.

Now the scorpions can’t hit a thing . . .

Jaime “I never cared about the people except that time I cared about the people” Lannister ladies and gentlemen.

Well, Dany was smart and got Drogo BEHIND the wall-mounted scorpions. They couldn't turn around.

Drogo's fire must be pretty intense to vaporize brick.

Does Cersei have telescopic vision?

Dany went nuts! She's killing the people of the city!

And just like that, Dany is fully over the edge.

And so did Grey Worm!

Ooh, this is getting bloody.

Break that wheel, Dany!

She's burning down the entire city!

Who was the little girl standing against the column?

Will Jon kill Dany and Drogo?

Refresher course on Maegor's Holdfast...

Jon wanders around in a trance.

Lena’s reaction shots are very effective.

Dany has gone crazy!!!

In classic fashion, in the middle of a huge battle people can find each other to settle private quarrels.

Fatal stab for Jaime. Good.

Jaime is going to crawl to Cersei and die in the arms of the woman he loves. Of course.

My man Davos better survive this shit show. He one of the only ones I like.

Ooh, the Hound and the Mountain!!

Well, Qyburn died by his own creation.

The episode must have been intended to be anti-war. This isn't glorious at all (like the Battle of Winterfell)--it's a nightmare, and not just for Cersei.

So Dany has gone full on "Mad Queen". Not surprising as they were foreshadowing this.

For those of us online who aren't watching at home, please give a body count (with names). Gracias.

Fucking hell, The Mountain is literally not of this world.

Touching Hound and Arya scene

Varys dead = executed by Drogon at Dany's command

Qyburn dead = skull smashed by the Mountain

Euron dead = skewered by Jaime in single combat

Most of the people of King's Landing, the citizenry as well as the army = torched by Drogon ridden by a crazed Dany

I couldn't care less about Gleghane vs Gleghane.

And Thee Hound pushed the Mountain off a high parapet into a flaming courtyard to be destroyed mutually

Will Ayra testify as to the horrors that Dany inflicted on innocent people?

[quote]I couldn't care less about Gleghane vs Gleghane.

Which is good, because it was Cleghane vs. Cleghane.

R80 - I love you

Weird ending. Did Brienne's father send that stallion? He's pretty brilliant like that.

My heart is racing!

Ugh so Jaime and Cersei having a loving reunion before he dies?

Good ending to the Jaime/Cersei relationship.

In hindsight, was Varys ever wrong?

Arya survived ALL that? That's her third certain-death escape just this episode alone.

Details about Jamie and Cersei please until I can find it online. Thanks!

r87 The gods must have something planned for her still. One last job.

Jaime, mortally wounded by the Hound, met his sister terrified out of her mind in the crypts below the Red Keep. they reunited tenderly and tearfully, and Jaime said, "Nothing else matters," and both apparently died in each other's arms as the Red Keep came down around their ears.

Noble death for the Hound. I'm glad he didn't get his eyes all the way gouged out like Oberyn. Gross.

(Because Drogon is sending the whole thing crashing down.)

the hound didn’t hurt Jamie it was euron

I think the dumbest thing about this episode is that the horse that the Harry Strickland was riding and got taken down by Drogon was the same horse that Arya rides away on.

Wow, did not expect the episode to be like this. Clearly Martin, Benioff, and Weiss wanted to send a strong and sobering message about the horrors of actual war.

Fuck this shit show. It used to be sooo good!

Cersei deserved a more satisfying death.

Our bisexual prince finally avenged. It's only taken ten fucking seasons.

Note that Ellaria is still in the dungeons, next to her daughter's rotting corpse.

This was absolute garbage from start to finish. Never seen a show implode this spectacularly on this level.

Drogon isn't hurt, is he? Please no....

r94 Wait, really?!

Well, by this point Ellaria is probably dead.

Jamie is a DICK for breaking Brienne's heart. Leopards and spots, I suppose...

This episode was depressing as hell.

r102 I don't know, parts of the Red Keep seemed pretty intact in the next week's preview. But of course the actress isn't returning so it doesn't really matter either way.

I wonder if Septa Unella is still alive...

Pregnant Cersei killed on Mother's Day. Hardcore.

Well, next episode Tyrion and Arya (and Jon?) will have to try to take down Dany the Psycho, especially before she goes after Sansa (whom she was really angry at for betraying the oath she had made to Jon Snow about his lineage).

[quote]I wonder if Septa Unella is still alive...

I think Cersei meant to keep her alive for days, not years.

Did anyone actually see them (Jaime and Cersei) die, see dead bodies after everything fell in on them?

How does Cersei die.

No, r109.

No, but we didn't need to. Thousands of pounds of rubble fell on them. They are squashed.

Sansa broke a vow. Per her own father, she deserves to be beheaded. She knew what the price would be.

I wanted a better death for Cersei. Why should she get to be with Jaime at the end? I wanted it to be worse than that.

Dany has stated her boundaries.

Wouldn't that be something- Sansa getting beheaded in the last episode? That'd be ballsy.

So far, the best revelation to come out of all eight seasons of GoT is finding out the original King in the North is a big ol’ Queen.

This will end with Dany being killed and one of the good people (Jon) taking the throne. It's ending on a very conventional good over evil way for such an unconventional show.

Whoa I'm loving it.

Who will kill Dany in the last episode? Jon, Tyrion or Arya?

They left our the prophecy of the valonqar from the books when Maggy made her predictions to a teenage Cersei in the TV show, and everyone wondered why. Well, that's because Cersei's death tonight did not fulfill Maggy's prophecy from the books:

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar [trans: little brother] shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Martin must be having Cersei die a different way in the books than she did tonight.

This is how we would have dealt with the Nazis. Every single one eliminated. Every single supporter eliminated.

Jon will kill her and then go North. Rebuild the wall for future threats? Or reform the Nights Watch? Or become a Wildlings and hook up with Tormund and Ghost.

Cersei dies in the arms of Jaime, the man who adores her. She’s radiant in red. There’s just no way that evil bitch was going to pay for her crimes. A glorious diva death.

Jon won't end up on the throne.

Arya is dead, motherfuckers! That was The Pale Horse, and I'd bet quite a lot of real money that Jon will find her body in the rubble of the ruined city next week. Not a terrible way to go, stopping killing and trying to help people live and finding she's still deadly even if her intentions are good... but she's dead. She died in the dragon fire that killed the people she was trying to save.

Of course nobody else gets it, because D&D botched it.

HBO loves Lena!

Cersei did look great in her red outfit.

I just loved Harry Strickland going out with a whimper, without ever raising a sword. That, and that DLer Qyburn overreacting and getting put in his place.

r126 I thought so too, but she's very much alive in the preview...

[quote]Pregnant Cersei killed on Mother's Day. Hardcore.

It's fitting as Stannis killed Shireen on Father's Day and Tyrion killed Tywin on Father's Day.

[quote]Jon won't end up on the throne.

Jon never wanted it, which is what he has been trying to get through to Dany's hard head. He never wanted the throne. Let it go to Sansa or to no one, because Dany isn't getting it and Jon will walk away from it.

Fuck Jaime for treating Brienne like that and going back to Cersei after all this shit. And fuck the writers for doing a complete 180 on Jaime’s character development over the past 7 seasons.

They had me rooting for Euron.

I wanted to watch Cersei and Jaime suffer and die. We had some brutal deaths this episode and it should have been theirs.

[quote]That, and that DLer Qyburn overreacting and getting put in his place.

*overreaching, not overreacting, sorry.

R125 Who will end up on the Iron Throne? It had better not be Sansa, after the shit she pulled.

R134 - I say Arya ends up on the Iron Throne.

[quote] I wanted to watch Cersei and Jaime suffer and die.

But that's exactly what happened.

Jaime was given what looked to be several horribly painful wounds (probably mortal) while in single combat with Euron.

Cersei was terrified out of her mind to see everyone around her die, and was abandoned by everyone at the end save Jaime.

Then they both died. They suffered, then they died. Wish granted.

. No attempt at all to kill,the dragon. And it's not like they didn't know it was coming.

[quote]I wanted to watch Cersei and Jaime suffer and die. We had some brutal deaths this episode and it should have been theirs.

Same. So many good characters have died in horrid ways some at the hands of Cersei and she gets to die being comforted by Jaime?!

And I actually loved Cersei and liked how she was showing how much of Tywin's daughter she was but she still deserved to be killed horribly.

This is very satisfying

I'm enjoying the reactions to the episode. A lot of people are mad because the characters didn't die or turn out the way they want. I do feel this season has been rushed compared to the previous seasons but hey they've got to do what they need to do to end the series.

Cersei at least deserved to be killed directly by a person.

R134 I believe the spoilers on who ends up on the throne, but I won't post them here. Go to the spoiler thread.

I don't think Dany or Jon end up on the throne.

[quote] . No attempt at all to kill,the dragon.

That's not true. Euron and his fleet fired bolts at it from their scorpions.

I'm thinking Dany will try to 'dracarys" Jon but Drogon will refuse

in the interest of keeping this thread spoiler-free, can someone post a link to the spoiler thread.

R144 agreed. Dany outwitted the Scorpions this time around.

Worst episode ever.

Every one of these numbskulls should have been on a boat to Missandei's island two episodes ago, so if they're stupid enough to hang around they deserve what they get as far as I'm concerned.

I don’t agree that Arya has died and gone off on a pale horse. I do believe, though, that magic guides her, or shadows her. She’s very skilled, and has a little something extra.

Arya looked like Ned in this episode.

Dany should've gone straight for the Red Keep and Cersei. Then if she still felt the need, take her time murdering people.

I'm glad the Dothraki raping everyone spoiler was wrong. That would be so shitty to have all the brown people be rapists. And I don't want to see that.

I do wonder what's next for Arya. I don't think it will be back to Winterfell, but I also think Hound got through to her that she didn't want to be a little vengeance demon her whole life. She had more to live for than that.

R146 here

https://www.datalounge.com/thread/23796806

Shit, try that again.

My god I'm a moron. One more time.

I’m glad The Hound got an honorable death ... sort of like the priest at the end of The Exorcist. And his parting scene with Arya was sweet.

It seemed like Arya regained her humanity in the same episode that Dany lost hers.

Intense, but full of every cliche imaginable.

So does the annoying lil midget die this epi?

So wretched. D&D should be writing heel turn storylines for WWE.

Cersei's epic death was the ceiling falling down? That was underwhelming.

[quote]I'm enjoying the reactions to the episode. A lot of people are mad because the characters didn't die or turn out the way they want. I do feel this season has been rushed compared to the previous seasons but hey they've got to do what they need to do to end the series.

I have minor disappointments like Cersei having an arguably nice death compared to other characters and how Tyrion turned into a complete idiot, but overall I've been fine with this season and this episode. However, there are people seething on Twitter over it.

Tons of dislikes on the game of thrones YouTube vids for the behind the episode and the preview for the finale.

Yeah, Arya regained her desire to live. That's nice.

But Jaime ended up exactly where he started eight seasons ago. They never should have had him sleep with Brienne, that was a dick move. She better not be fucking pregnant, either.

JFC that really sucked.

R158 no

The problem is how rushed everyone in. Dany is batshit insane and burning down the entire season..just because the plot says so.

I'm down with that being the end point, but it could have been written so much better. It was just a rushed slapjob in the writing.

It was thrilling to watch, but if you think about it too much it just leaves you disappointed.

[quote]They never should have had him sleep with Brienne, that was a dick move. She better not be fucking pregnant, either.

Hi, Selwyn Tarth!

[quote]Cersei's epic death was the ceiling falling down?

Were there at least BELLS hanging from that ceiling?

This has nothing to do about being rushed. They had two god damn years to work it all out and film it. No one said that they ONLY had six episodes. Every single thing that is happening is because, believe it or not, they actually PLANNED it out this way and thought it was the best way to go. Sweet God. Twitter is losing it over how stupid it all was.

Tonight's episode was kind of anti-climatic, and Cercie's death was less than satisfying.

Yes, and their decision to make it only 6 episodes means it is very rushed r169. I obviously agree they made a mistake. What are you trying to argue about?

Now that everyone sees how crazed Dany has become I don’t think she’ll hold the Iron Throne. Jon doesn’t want it. I think Jon will go back north of the Wall to be with Ghost and Tormund and all of Ygritte’s people. Sansa becomes the Wardeness of the North, and Tyrion gets the Iron Throne.

I’m not sure of Arya’s fate. I kind of am drawn to the poster upthread that posited Arya’s dead and rode off on the Pale Horse to signify it.

Varys was right.

JUSTICE FOR VARYS!

Arya is in the damn trailer for the next episode. She is not dead, give it a rest people.

R172 so the previews of Arya next week are of her being a ghost? Nah, she's alive.

I think my favorite part of the episode was when Mountain and Hound were staring at each other on the stairs and Cersei looks at Hound like, 'Just gonna sliiiiiiiiide right by you here...' and picks up her skirts and books it. Haha.

The Hound freely letting her escape was silly r176. And a big slap in the face to his bestie Arya who came all the way to Kings Landing to make sure she died.

It just happened because the plot says so.

War is ugly and brutal, but this is what Dany should have done last season when Olenna told her to. Instead she listened to the advice of stupid men, which resulted in the loss of 2 dragons and half of her army.

I never did like Grey Worm. Hope he dies in the finale.

Yeah the reality is Dany could have easily flown the dragons to the Red Keep and burned it down killing Cersei without harming the rest of Kings Landing as soon as she crossed the Narrow Sea.

How the fuck does destroying a whole city of civilians help Danys cause? She fucked herself over by making such a dumb decision. Hope she dies next episode cause her character sucks.

Its "Dany gone mad" r181 dear. Surely you realize that's the whole plotline they are going for? We aren't supposed to think her actions make sense.

The "writers" piss me off in their behind the scenes explanations cause it's obvious they suck and are complete morons trying to sound smarter than they are.

Didn't like this episode. Too much senseless violence and I've always hated Dany, so this wouldn't be a winner in my book. Cersei's death was anticlimactic. Can't wait for Dany to die, worried that Jon will bite the dust too. Sansa better watch out.

R25/30- blocked. You're a piece of shit spoiling before the episode started and then claiming it was only your guess. Right. I assume you are the same asshole who did the same thing last thread.

R182 but it came out of nowhere so its shitty writing and plot development.

I think had the last and this season were full 10 episodes length seasons, everyone would have been happy. It really is a shame as otherwise I see where they are going with this story.

It takes major balls to end major lead character arcs where they are ending here. Aria realising the uselessness of her kill list and now ending up doing 360degree turn around. John to realise that all his "the dead are coming" mantra was the least of worries. And looks like Sansa of all people outsmarting them all.

I just wish there were better writers and more time to wrap this up properly. Just with the care they handled this show in s1-4.

HBO offered D&D a blank check for the final two seasons. Anything they wanted, because more Thrones means more $$$ for HBO. But D&D being the arrogant fuckers that they are wouldn’t take it. They were ready to cut out and run to Disney.

There was no reason for there to be only 6 eps this season save D&Ds complete idiocy.

Well of course I agree r185, making the final season six episodes was a mistake. Everything has to be rushed, nothing gets to be built up in a way that makes sense.

[quote] but it came out of nowhere so its shitty writing and plot development.

It didn't come out of nowhere. As the trailer for tonighht's episode, they had been sowing the seeds of it for years, with all the talk over that time about how half of the Targaryens go mad eventually due to all the in-breeding.

In the first few seasons Dany was established as a troubled, high-handed, ambiguous character. But the way they had her transition to full-on bonkers was very crudely done.

Yes listening to David and Dan can be impressing, they don't come off as intelligent writers r183.

And I can't help but point out it is a big difference from listening to interviews GRRM gave where his intellect and thought that goes into the writing is clear.

Depressing*

They didnt even start showing Dany go slightly insane till recently so yes it was rushed and bad writing.

Remember when there was a whole episode devoted to how Robb Stark could cross a bridge?

How things change.

BTW, has there ever been a worse adviser than Tyrion? Every decision he makes is completely bone-headed. He'd damn well better not end up in charge. Also, how can there even BE an iron throne after all of that?

D&D can die in grease fire for butchering GoT. I bet we are going to get an ending as bad as "Lost", no matter how good was the show, all people remember now is the crappie ending.

I get the feeling that there will be no one on the iron throne and the 7 kingdoms will become democratic. Which means the whole show was for nothing.

I liked the final fight between the Hound and the Mountain but Cersei’s death wasn’t slow and awful enough.

Westeros is far from a democracy r197. No Iron Throne is not a democracy. The seven kingdoms just each have their own monarch, nothing has actually changed in terms of system of government.

And no Iron Throne would be a fine ending, it's always been bandied about as a possible ending to the books before the show was even a thing.

Hah. Hilarious. Game of Thrones actor Ian McElhinney (Barristan Selmy) just stated publicly that George RR Martin has completed books 6 and 7 and that he struck a deal with HBO to wait until the show ended to release the books

There's only one person going to be left with the smarts and family connections left to run the country...Robin Arryn! ;-)

Cersei did not get the death she deserved - dying in the arms of the one person who loved her

Link r200? I don't believe that for a second.

R203 Google it, moron.

Maybe they'll go all Twin Peaks on it. Agent Cooper died at the end of season two but for some reason no one wanted to believe it. So all of his season three was his spirit's futile white knight quest. What if Arya did die and the next episode is her fantasy of putting the Starks on the throne -- but she actually died and crazy D ends up ruling. I think if they wrap everything up in a tidy bow, they'll lose the fans who enjoyed the evil machinations of the characters. So, if they want people talking, they will not simply have the Starks on the throne and D banished.

R203, I found this on Reddit.

He says what I heard, sounds like he is repeating speculation. Frankly, this is a supporting actor who was killed off years ago, what does he know?

I'd love for it to be true, but the idea that GRRM has A Dream of Spring written is wishful thinking. I'm not sure he will ever actually finish it.

Holy shit! I think saw a little box of Mc Donald's fries in one of the scenes!

I LOVED IT!!!! You complainers are the worst. It was well done. Anyway, I think Bran warged into that horse?

Vanity Fair article theorizes Jon will go live with the wildlings and Ghost. That would be good.

Danerys STILL isn't "mad". She has no irrational beliefs, she doesn't hear voices, she doesn't believe in crazy things, she shows absolutely no signs of mental illness. Instead, she's just suddenly bloodthirsty, vicious, stupid and is pointlessly slaughtering civilians... after they spent seven fucking years establishing that she wasn't bloodthirsty, vicious, stupid, and she cared about avoiding civilian bloodshed.

I don't have any objection to a "mad queen" storyline, but the fact is they've made a total hash of it. She's just turned into a completely different person this year, without actually being cray.

No one seems to really get a grasp on what is happening. Last week more than half the comments regarding Jaime were that he was going to KL to kill Cersei. In actuality what he told Brienne was the truth. I'm a little shocked he still loved Cersei after he knew she sent Bronn to kill him. Although, she might've known he wouldn't have done it. That whole plot point was really glossed over.

R210, that's been speculated everywhere for a while.

Dany felt loved in Essos. She felt unloved in Westeros. So Westeros must burn.

Ah, sorry r212, I have tried to stay out of the loop regarding theories. I just want Jon to have a good end.

R211 I agree. I dont mind Dany turning into this but the progression to this was written in such a hack job way.

[Quote]Last week more than half the comments regarding Jaime were that he was going to KL to kill Cersei. In actuality what he told Brienne was the truth.

Yeah, people seem to refuse to believe the writing for this show is fairly straight forward. Keep looking for all these secret meanings and twists.

I guess that fine acting job with the Dany character grimacing last week because her maid got killed was supposed to foreshadow that every living person in the area now deserved to die.

[quote]Yeah, people seem to refuse to believe the writing for this show is fairly straight forward. Keep looking for all these secret meanings and twists.

I think former entertainment journalist Devin Faraci says it properly, "Gentle reminder: “didn’t fulfill my fan theories” isn’t the same as “badly done.” Many people are angry because the show didn't fulfill their own vision of how it should be. Such as Jaime and Brienne fans who are pissed he went back to Kings Landing but hoped he was going there to kill Cersei. The show has told us he loves her and there is nothing he would do for her. He even tells Brienne this to an extent and people are still furious that he went there to save Cersei.

It's fine to be disappointed but to act as if the show has betrayed the character isn't fully accurate in many cases. Dany has never been afraid to use force. Yes, this is the first that she has let civilians be cannon fodder but it's not as if she's been this benevolent being for 8 seasons.

Now, where is Bronn?

Gendry and Podrick fucking each other for an hour would have been a better use of everyone's time.

[Quote]Dany has never been afraid to use force. Yes, this is the first that she has let civilians be cannon fodder but it's not as if she's been this benevolent being for 8 seasons

There is a cosmic jump going from "not afraid to use force" to burning down a city of innocent people for shits and giggles after the army forfeited. Don't try to understate the jump the writers did.

Is it bad that I enjoyed her burning that city down? Annoying extras. Shame! Shame!

Yeah, not surprised at Dany losing it or Jamie being with Cersei but was shocked about him sleeping with Brienne. Never really saw much sexual tension between them just camaraderie.

I was very satisfied with the Cersi/Jamie ending. They were great villains. I wanted him to recognize himself for the evil nugget he was and return to her - then die just as they did - a painful death together, still evil. It was perfect (except I wish they hadn't made her pregnant). I am also happy for the Knight Brianne. She deserves better.

Right, Daenerys knowingly massacres crowds of fleeing civilians right in front of her, while systematically strafing the largest city in Westeros *after* it's already surrendered... because Jon Snow didn't fuck her silly the night before.

So Westeros has chosen "fear" then!

It was just so fucking stupid, R224. I mean she's slaughtering people who've surrendered, people who she is GOING TO FUCKING NEED to populate her capital city and run her government!

Like I keep saying, she spent seven seasons being very intelligent, and now she's suddenly an idiot.

I guess Bran finally did something useful and warged into the horse that Arya left on.

Bravo R218

The Cersi/Jamie death scene almost certainly becomes the key to Dany going comely round the bend next episode. We know they're dead, but she doesn't and there's no way they're ever going to dig them out, so she'll suspect they escaped, and that leads her to thinking Tyrion betrayed her.

I guess it all boils down to whether Dany kills Tyrion or someone kills Dany to save him.

Well, it will be a fantastic time to renovate the city.

I suspect that all of the interior decorators in Westeros just died.

[quote]HBO offered D&D a blank check for the final two seasons. Anything they wanted, because more Thrones means more $$$ for HBO. But D&D being the arrogant fuckers that they are wouldn’t take it. They were ready to cut out and run to Disney.

I think you hit on an important point. If you look at this season as D&D basically auditioning for Disney it all makes sense. This season is nothing but a demo reel to show Disney they can handle the big CGI action projects Disney has waiting for them. Fuck plot, fuck dialogue, fuck nuance, Disney doesn't need any of that that, Disney needs action so here it is Mr. Iger, write us our checks.

Let those Dothraki decorators shine forth!

Good point about no one know if Jamie and Cercei escaped or not.

So I missed the first half hour the first time around, so I'm going to take the opoprtunty to bitch that last week the Scorpion harpoons were horrifically effective, and this week they're fucking useless.

THE WRITERS THINK WE'RE IDIOTS!!!

Tyrion is fucked, because it'll come out that not only did he release Jamie, he arranged to have that boat sitting there for them to sail off into the sunset. Dany hears that and he's instantly dragon food.

So, D&D think people don’t have a choice and will just have to get over them fucking up the final season because they’re going to do wondrous things at Disney? Noted.

"I think you hit on an important point. If you look at this season as D&D basically auditioning for Disney it all makes sense. This season is nothing but a demo reel to show Disney they can handle the big CGI action projects Disney has waiting for them."

You know, I think you're right. HBO would have loved them to take forty episodes over two or three years to tell the story they're telling in this mess of a season, and they refused and said it could all be done in six episodes.

I only hope that Disney decides they've failed their "audition", because the fans fucking hate what they're doing now and ratings are dropping fast.

Yes it was funny how Eurons fleet and the scorpions go from major scary threat to something Dany can destroy in 30 seconds without breaking a sweat.

Dany has always been vengeful, maybe not outright crazy, but very much a dictator in her own way. So I'm not as surprised as others here that she destroyed KL. I kept wondering why she is destroying the city she is going to rule and have to rebuild and the people who survived will obviosuly never accept her. She doesn't care, like she said she chooses fear. She is no better than any of her predecessors, she wants the power so bad that she will get it any way she can. It's not about redeeming family, it's about her ego. If it was about family, she would let Jon rule. I guess she won't be pregnant after all.

As for Jaime and Brienne, I also never got the sexual vibe between them. To me they just seemed like good friends. No romantic chemistry.

I don't think anyone is "surprised", they pretty much made it clear last episode this where they were going to take Dnay. Some people just didn't find it well written. An important distinction.

[quote]I only hope that Disney decides they've failed their "audition", because the fans fucking hate what they're doing now and ratings are dropping fast.

I doubt it and yet...

...Kathleen Kennedy who heads up Star Wars production at Disney has built herself a pretty notorious rep for firing creators for a variety of reasons. Josh Trank was removed from one of the spin-offs for his personal behavior and the flip that was Fantastic Four; Colin Treverow was booted from one of the mains for Book if Henry; Lord & Miller tossed from Solo after 80% of production was complete; and that guy that did Rouge One was basically replaced but played ball enough to keep his name on the film. She’s watching the reaction and will be keeping D&D on a very short leash.

D&D stopped caring about GOT years ago.

What's more though, I strongly suspect that D&D's story choices are too ridiculous be simply lazy. They took an *extra year* to "get it right." For 6 episodes, not 10. The nonsensical decisions being made by the now-stupid characters take zero effort to write, and piss off book fans in particular. Meanwhile, the "loyal" fans of D&D's style of spectacle love all the carnage. I sense a deliberate middle finger being given to anyone who cares about plot, dialogue or nuance.

[quote] Good point about no one know if Jamie and Cercei escaped or not.

D&D said on the aftershow commentary that they died.

That's settled, then.

Lena Headey has also stated unequivocally in this EW interview that this episode marked the death of Cersei.

The poster wasn't arguing that Cersei wasn't dead, but that Dany doesn't actually know that Cersei is dead.

Reading comprehension people.

Eh, I thought Jaime and Brienne had a lot of chemistry, far more than Jaime and Cersei did but then Cersei is such a cold fish, she doesn’t really connect with anyone. Don’t know if it’s the role or the actress or what. Jaime always comes alive much more in his scenes with Brienne; contrast the look on his face when he’s leaving her last week with his scene Cersei this week. I don’t know if the show needed for them to be romantic, but they certainly had that spark.

David and Dan signed up to adapt books into a TV show, but they ended up having to something GRRM hasn't been able to do..write an ending to this story. They were put in terrible position r242.

But yes, they are obviously ready to get themselves out from under this. The job turned into more than they could handle.

I thought that Jaime adored Brienne. But when he heard that Cersei was going to die, he realized that he couldn't escape the past, or didn't want to escape the past, and he left to join her at the end. As he said, he was the stupidest Lannister.

tooo violent, why must they show slitting of women and kids throats?

nasty dam show

LOOOOOOOOOOVE THE DRAGONS OF FIRE AND RAGE

I thought this episode was great, though I don;t thin k the preparation for it this season has been great. Obviously George R. R. Martin wanted Dany to go nuts from the very beginning ((the seeds of that were certainly shown in the first book and in the show's first season); but I think it's fair to say the showrunners, Benioff and Weiss, did not do enough in the show's last two seasons to prepare for that.

I am a bit amazed at those of you who think you were owed seeing some sort of hideous horrible death for Cersei--like this was an Eighties buddy movie like "Stakeout, or some Bond movie, where we have to see the big villain get it in the most gruesome way possible! Did you really think she would die being eaten by one of Dany's dragon (CHOMP!) or something like that? I think you must have very little respect for Martin's intelligence if you expected something of that sort.

they have killed so many faves

can they be revived for the movies?

No, D&D were put into a fantastic position. GRRM gave them the ending to the story. The details for a manuscript weren't worked out, but the outline of the ending was well defined.

Figuring out how to end a story is the hardest part of ending a TV show, but they already had that,

It is known.

good god thy know how to kill a king with loving gore.

WHAT movies, r251? That plan was abandoned.

how will the series be continued, they aint givin up on this cash cow

one of the stars mentioned movies on the late show

hope they dint kill the sgt from endeavor....and wolf hall

This was the best of season 8. Although it did feel like Arya was Charlton Heston in Earthquake 2019.

They have a bunch of spin offs in the works. One stars Naomi Watts, which I'm not a fan of. The great thing about this show is the cast was made up of mostly unknowns as far as American audiences are concerned.

Martin basically was telling the war of the roses with dragons. England, France, Scotland etc. I stopped watching with Reek. They tortured him over and over for no reason. I stopped watching because the plots and character motivations never made sense. I'm watching this season. Dany was always a dictatorial, self serving person. Badly written and unsatisfactory

Game of thrones my ass

twas the game of dragons that brought down the city...

naomi boring vanilla watts?????

Naomi gave an epic performance in that David Lynch movie.

Is this filmed in 3d? dam looks so real

Hell, Watts was the weak link of that and anything she does...

I think that killing of Varys was a setup of killing Tyrion by dragon fire but SURPRISE he too is a Targ and he walks out of the fire. Naked would be a nice touch.

Only thing I liked in this episode was Cleganebowl. The burning of the fleet was too rushed. The manner of Cersei's death was a tragic let down.

Since this article two out of the five potential sequels have been dropped. Don't think the Watts one is among them.

R267 Just checked IMDB the Watts one has great cast.

Naomi Watts is better actress than her wife Nicole Flopman.

"I am a bit amazed at those of you who think you were owed seeing some sort of hideous horrible death for Cersei"

I didn't want a horrible death for her, I wanted a dramatic death! And one where she knew damn well she'd brought it all on herself, that she was reaping what she'd sown.

Sometimes this show gets that right, some times less so. Joffrey's death was kind of unsatisfying, because he died without knowing killed him or why, there was no realization. Ramsay Bolton's death got it right, he was tied up and helpless knowing damn well his wife was paying him back for all the abuse he'd inflicted on her and the other women of the North, he knew it and he went down fighting anyway, that was an excellent comeuppance!

But as with Joffrey, Cersei's death lacked that feeling of comeuppance deserved and the dying villain had brought it all on themselves. Instead of Cersei realizing how badly she'd fucked up her reign, she went down being comforted by her one true love, because she'd lost a fight with a psychobitch like herself. It just wasn't satisfying drama.

D&D have continually bent the show to serve Lena. They love her, but really Cersei should’ve been offed a season ago. By keeping her in and catering the story to her character they really wrote themselves into a corner and now we’re seeing the results of that.

So let me see if I have this right: of the major characters, all that's left zare:

*Dany

*Jon

*Tyrion

*Sansa

*Bran

*Brienne

*Davos

*Arya

*Sam and Gilly and their baby

(There's also Tormund and Ghost, but I think they're gone for good. I also would doubt we see Jaqen H, again.)

r271, I would SERIOUSLY doubt that they've killed her any later than George R R Martin specified when he gave them the overall plan for the series.

I seem to recall Dany killing a possibly innocent person before, when she fried some random rich dude as an example to the other rich dudes. That didn't stop the rebellion against her either, but she didn't learn.

I wish we could have had a prior scene at Winterfell with Dany talking to Missandei about how ungrateful the North was, all that she had sacrificed for them, and why weren't they loving the return of the true queen? We could have seen Dany's pent-up fury and Missandei's calming of the situation, talking about how once everyone got to know her they would love her, and everything would be much better when they could return to south. Dany and Missandei could have had a good laugh about how damned cold it was, foreshadowing that Dany's life was about to get much colder, emotionally.

Tyrion/Sansa for the win.

Yes, R274, a scene like that would have helped. So would a few scenes showing Dany's deterioration last season, like after the first dragon died, a scene showing why the hell the Hound was on a suicide revenge mission instead of making a new life for himself, a scene showing why the Scorpions were super-effective last week and useless this week, etc.

As for who's left, I suspect that next week it's going to be Dany and Grey Worm against everyone else.

If the Seven Kingdoms gets to split up because no one wants an insane, self-obsessed ruler, what about us?

One of the main problems with this season is that they haven't introduced any new characters. They're just offing the existing ones. But they can't do that successfully without the introduction of new characters.

If the Seven Kingdoms get split up, they'll go back to constantly making war with each other.

Nobody will win if that happens, except the seven families who end up with a kingdom of their own. The civilians lose, because they have more war and destruction to deal with.

R278, what would be the point? The show is ending. Their main goal seems to be killing off every major character.

Sansa should hook up with Brienne. They've both been done dirty by men so why not?

KL is where the Starks used to live right ?

Cersi did deserve a worse death esp not a romantic one.

What happened to the prophecy?

No, the Starks are from Winterfell in the north. Speaking of which, is this supposed to be winter? They really dropped the ball with so many hyped up things. I'm still pissed about the WW.

R283, it didn't come true. Maybe it will in the books since they left that part out of the show.

I think Tyrion crossed the line. I am sick of him having a soft spot for his ratty family.

Bran still hasn't done anything useful with his powers.

[quote]Bran still hasn't done anything useful with his powers.

Yeah, I'm not buying that Bran warged into that horse at the end. He has been of little help.

Counter-point: Cersei literally getting crushed under the weight of the Iron Throne, after repeatedly saying that the Red Keep has never fallen - real solid symbolism.

If the writing in Game of Thrones were art, the seasons would look something like this:

Near the end, Arya was looking at the charred bodies of two entwined people. And it focused on a sword. Were we supposed to know who they were? At first I thought it was jon's sword because it looked like a wolf on the end. But idk.

They have 5 GoT series in the works. Is that too much?

Only three now, with one shooting a pilot so far.

I’m with R176.

“You guys need to chat. I’m gonna just...yea bye”

How did Drogon not get exhausted by the end? All that flying and fire-breathing... Ugh exhausting.

The whole reason Cersei didn't participate in the war at the north was to consolidate her power in the South while everyone else was fighting, and then pick of the stragglers. Yet, all she apparently did was hole up in Kings Landing and wait for everyone to gather their forces and march South. They didn't even do harrying attacks or attempt to slow them down. Notice how the gathered on the beach right outside the KL walls? Why wasn't the Iron Fleet attacking them as they were trying to land? And once again, they have people deploying their armies out in front of their fortifications, just like at Winterfell. Moronic.

The writers don't have to be military geniuses but c'mon.

R290, remains of Cleganebowl

Drogon got the better of Euron because he came down from the clouds to attack. And he was prepared for being fired at.

Completely understand Dany breaking down and it's all Jon's fault for dumping her on the eve of her getting KL. She's lost two of her children, Jorah, missandei and been betrayed by Varys. She also believes Jon, Sansa and Tyrion have all betrayed her. Her lover will now become her more popular rival.

Drogon was invigorated by all the killing? Unsettled because Dany was upset.

Exactly, r295. Here's what else I don't understand: moving forces in the previous episode without sending spies and scouts ahead to ensure safety

I thought it might be them r296, but then I thought it would be unrealistic for her to find their bodies amongst all the other dead bodies and destruction. And the fire looked pretty healthy, I'm not sure it'd be all the way out in a few hours.

Plus, I don't want to see the Hound as just bones. So I'll continue thinking they're random people.

True r297.

I'm bummed that the spoiler about Drogon producing a litter (??) Of younger dragon offspring wasn't true

was the silver haird nympo riding the dragoon when it spit fire on the town?

naomi fukin watts? ya gotsa bey kid(manish)ding....

R296—No. It was the mother and child she was running with.

Thanks r300

[quote]Dany hears that and Tyrion is instantly dragon food.

More like an amuse bouche

Tolkien spits on u dumb lost dragooneers.

I liked that Tyrion helped Jaime. He chose to help the one person who loves him at the same moment that Dany chose fear. Tyrion knows he will pay for it with his life but it is a noble act, considering his ignoble activities of his life.

If Dany has anything other than self-interest she would bend the knee to the rightful heir Jon but ego gets in her way.

Sansa doesn’t deserve to be executed for telling Tyrion about the line of succession because she is following the letter of the law instead of lying for a pretender. Indeed, Ned Stark himself died because he did not support a pretender on the throne.

omg u queens keep track of ev little thing in this epic fukkery.

UNREAL

GIT A LIFE

WORK!

R290, I assume it was the mother ( who strangely had a hairdo like Cersei. Was she a member of her fan club ) and child who helped Arya and she tried to save.

I just saw an article titled "The unearned madness of Daenerys Targaryen" and I'm like whut? Her madness was literally established in the first season when she refused to look away when her brother was killed in a barbaric, stomach-turning manner.

3 Minutes of Game of Thrones castmembers saying they're disappointed by Season 8

I just love watching American critics and YouTubers bitching about Dany torching the civilians as well. Erm, what the fuck do you think happened when you bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki? This was all clearly a total war / atomic bomb / war crimes metaphor; there's no stopping the fire once you unleash it. Also, Westeros was conquered on a dragon called Balerion the DREAD. What did you imagine the "dread" part stood for?

R218 is the most rational poster here.

Last week Jaime made it clear he was going to go to Cersei, not to kill her, but to save her and be at her side.

Anything beyond that is Frau Fanfic.

they killed off all the faves

god dam em

I don’t know if you noticed but Bran is in a wheelchair. Maybe his only purpose was back up Sam’s story. Speaking of Sam I assumed he would have a major role in all this. Is he gone for good ?

I will be so mad if anymore Starks die Danny not so much.

I think Jaime's time with Brienne was a bit like the Hound's time in the commune with Brother Rey. For a time the Hound thought he could just walk away from it all, but when shit came calling, he walked back into the game.

I'm kind of disappointed with the Hound's story. I thought the Lord of Light actually had plans for him. Okay, he was meant to save Arya from the zombies so she could kill the Night King, but when he didn't drop dead like Melisandre or Beric did when the Lord of Light was finished with them, I thought maybe he had something important still to do. Killing his zombie brother was kind of meh.

Um, no, r309. The reason people who've been watching the show since day 1 are displeased is because most of Dany's character arc has been based on her unwillingness to kill civilians without very, very good cause. And here she is, the victor in a battle, listening to the surrender bells, and she the decided to launch into an unnecessary civilian bloodlust frenzy. That would have been bad enough with a decent explanation, but the only explanation we've been given is that she is pissed her friend died and that she feels unloved.

Face it. It's shit.

What was the point of Arya going to King's Landing in the first place? They knew she wouldn't kill Cersei. So why have her go there? It makes no sense. No one is interested in watching someone's failed mission.

Arya's experiences in King's Landing caused her to turn back to life rather than embracing death. I'm betting she's on her way back to Gendry. He won't be a lord now without Dany's support, so they can build a life together that Arya can be happy with. She'd never have been happy being Lord Baratheon's Lady, but she could be very happy as Gendry's equal partner.

Arya's story here was that she gave up selfish revenge. That’s a big deal. It was great to see and stood in contrast to Dany's story.

Dany had two paths to ruling; Love or fear. She lost all the people who loved her. She chose fear; she told Jon as much. She set out to destroy the people who didn’t love her. It’s really that simple. (And never forget, her default setting was ALWAYS to lay waste to cities. She constantly had to be talked out of it. Go back and watch. This was not breaking with her character, it was the culmination. I’d suspected from season 3 or so that she would prove to be the villain of the piece. She has, only she’s a truly tragic villain.)

Oh dear r309. Why did America bomb Japan? Because they refused to surrender.

That's a stupid comparison to this episode where the entire point is Dany chose to do this after they surrendered.

KILL THEM ALL OFF

LET BRAN GO UP IN FLAMES WITH HIS FUR COAT OF HUMILIATION.

wait, its all a dream

theyr all alive and the king lives !!!

Dany was pushed too far...she lost too much on the the way to cersei surrendering. Her entire support network was dead or had betrayed her (real or imagined) all she felt she had left was Drogon and Grey Worm, who was also mourning Missandei and in a less than healthy way

On a completely different matter, Bran will be able to tell the others Cersie and Jaime are dead

[quote]Um, no, [R309]. The reason people who've been watching the show since day 1 are displeased is because most of Dany's character arc has been based on her unwillingness to kill civilians without very, very good cause. And here she is, the victor in a battle, listening to the surrender bells, and she the decided to launch into an unnecessary civilian bloodlust frenzy.

The Daily Beast critic agrees with you and complains that Dany is suddenly the "crazy ex-girlfriend."

she very unhappy with the ending.

which is what u think???

It was satisfying to watch Dany do what she and Jon should have done last week. I don’t blame her for not trusting Cersei but damn. So many innocent people died needlessly and her army is now a band of cutthroats without honor. Jamie and Cersei meeting such a boring end buried beneath the rubble of Kings Landing was somehow fitting. Qyburn was killed by his creation as someone posted last week and Varys met his end betraying the woman he thought would change their world for the better. She’s the mad Queen now. Does Drogon die with Dany or does John keep him as a part of his legacy? The way he sent Ghost away says he will kill the dragon because no one in the North will feel safe if he lives.

[quote]I wish we could have had a prior scene at Winterfell with Dany talking to Missandei about how ungrateful the North was, all that she had sacrificed for them, and why weren't they loving the return of the true queen? We could have seen Dany's pent-up fury and Missandei's calming of the situation, talking about how once everyone got to know her they would love her, and everything would be much better when they could return to south. Dany and Missandei could have had a good laugh about how damned cold it was, foreshadowing that Dany's life was about to get much colder, emotionally.

[quote]Yes, [R274], a scene like that would have helped. So would a few scenes showing Dany's deterioration last season, like after the first dragon died

Yes, more scenes like this would have made this feel earned. This is the culmination of Dany's entire arc. Do it right.

But of course, we didn't have room for more scenes like that because they decided Seasons 7 and 8 should be really short.

Dany has been screaming bend the knee for the last two seasons at anyone within earshot. She had the crazy bitch vibe all along. She never had the clear wisdom and big heart that Jon Snow has. That much has been made clear well before she went all dragon fire on everyone's ass. Any other interpretation of her was just wishful Disney Princess thinking.

Every monarch expects people to bend the knee r326 or they wouldn't be a monarch.

You can try to defend David and Dan's writing all you want, but if they want the culmination of this characters arc to be she burns down a city she already won for literally no reason at all, that she is just "MAD111!!!", they should earn that moment. Like a lot of the writing recently the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

Snort - Per Alan Sepinwall's review: "The more you can see, the less sense any of it makes. And that extends particularly to Daenerys’ heel turn from Breaker of Chains to Barbecuer of Families."

Rather than Rhaegal and Missandei dying pointlessly last episode, what if they did in this episode right before Kings Landing surrendered and Dany just snapped?

Even just minor writing changes could have made this play out better.

True, r329

How does Drogon know what Dany wants him to do?

[quote]How does Drogon know what Dany wants him to do?

Honey, it's all [italic]magic.[/italic] It's a fantasy TV show.

[Quote]KL is where the Starks used to live right ?

Kings Landing didn't exist before the Targs came. It is where Aegon the Conqueror decided to build a throne and capital to unite the seven kingdoms under one monarch.

I hated it. Actually changed the channel and came back twice. The third time was final. I can't take that level of needless violence. Just sick.

If you do not care for "needless violence," r333, have you considered that Game of Thrones may not be for you?

Yeah its long been established that there is an almost psychic bond between Dany and the dragons, particularly with Drogon. Dragons are mystical creatures.

In the lore of the books, dragons do have a very strong bond mystical type bond with their rider. They will refuse to let anyone else ride them while their rider is alive.

I agree, R329, that even minor changes could have helped this season. Dany turning mad in about 3 1/2 seconds made no sense. Jaime going back to Cersei after she sent Bronn to kill him made no sense. What was the point of Jaime's conversation with Bran when he said he wasn't that man anymore, only to turn around and end up being that man.

Cersei's death was so unsatisfying. She and Jaime proclaim their undying love and are then crushed by the falling Red Keep. Um, ok. I'm glad Dan and Dave took all that extra time to "get it right." What a fucking pile of shit they turned this into.

All of a sudden the Lannesters were a big warband fuzzy happy family. Everyone had forgotten how Cersei was convinced he had killed Jeffrey and really killed their father and how they were going to kill each other.

[quote]It's a fantasy TV show.

If so, then were is the wizard?

Melisandre. Bran. There have been a few r338.

I’m amazed at all of the blind devotion from some of the fans who are defending this season on twitter and social media. I love this show, and even I can admit that the writing has gone to utter shit since midway through season 7 when they went to capture a white walker to bring to Cersei

r339 No, there have been NONE. We want Gandalf!

The Iron Bank of Braavos is the big loser of the Game of Thrones as it appears that there will be no Lannisters to pay their debts.

I think Dany’s break was properly motivated and well-foreshadowed. She’s always had a streak of violence. She has finally achieved her life’s ambition of becoming Queen of Westeros, only to realize that the people don’t want her and her claim is illegitimate. Those closest to her are dead or betraying her. And she has a dragon with and endless supply of dragon fuel. Burn, baby, burn.

R343 = Dan or Dave

Everytime I remember that Season 7 plotline it makes me more upset r340. So silly.

Can't believe how easily Tyrion sold Varys to Dany.

Most important thing we learned in Ep5 ? There's a fucking kitchen in Dagonstone.

R343 Sure, Jan.

So well foreshadowed. The woman who locked her dragons in a dungeon for a year after they accidentally killed ONE child then proceeds to murder THOUSANDS of innocent women and children.

[quote]If so, then were is the wizard?

Hello?

The foreshadowing of Tyrion being hit with dragon fire like Varys, is interesting.

I believe that Tyrion will survive.

God I hope one day GRRM finishes his books. I've no doubt we will get to the same endpoint of Dany burning Kings Landing, but we can finally see it written in a way that works.

If only we could change the GIF to “Sure, Dan”, because R343 has to be Dan or Dave!

[quote]So well foreshadowed. The woman who locked her dragons in a dungeon for a year after they accidentally killed ONE child then proceeds to murder THOUSANDS of innocent women and children.

Yes, I read that article, too. The point is not that Dany has always been a wanton mass murderer. That would be boring. It’s that her becoming one is consistent with her story and a plausible resolution of her conflicted nature. She locked up the dragons not out of great compassion, but out of political necessity. She also has repeatedly engaged in large-scale bloodbaths before (slaveowners, Khals) which we could forgive because we felt we could justify them. She has been violent and vengeful before, so this latest rampage is part of her nature and there’s nothing to restrain her now. Her life has been stripped of all meaning. She is a loveless, unwanted, and illegitimate conquerer and she has a dragon.

[quote] If so, then were is the wizard?

You rang?

Also, it’s Ironic that the story begins with the Kingslayer breaking his oath to prevent the last Targaryen King from burning King’s Landing to the ground, and after everything, we wind up with his daughter burning King’s Landing to the ground. I think the ending is what GRRM had in mind all along.

R354 I have no problem with the events themselves. It was indeed a logical place for the story to go. I do however take issue with the lead up, or lack thereof, of these events at the hands of the television writers. The execution was rushed and very sloppy.

Agreed, r355. The last two seasons have been rushed and poorly executed as a result, especially compared to the original pacing.

The truth about the real world and world history is that ... it makes no sense. Why should this show be any different?

R346 this really pissed me off . why'd he have to sell out ol' baldy?

Perhaps he thought the eve of battle was a dangerous time to plot a coup?

Yeah, I suspect George RR Martin will go this route in the books, but it will be better laid out and the character changes will make more sense. Having Dany completely lose it over the course of a couple episodes makes no sense. From the woman who fought in the battle to save the world from the white walkers to a bonkers bitch who roasts innocent women and children alive. The showrunners thought a couple flashbacks to the statement about when a Targaryen is born flip a coin over whether they'll be crazy or sane is not enough to do such a big switch, but I think they think that was the only explanation needed.

I bet Dan and Dave are hiding out the next few weeks. Enraged GOT fans will probably slaughter them if they get their hands on them. Mad crowd!

Tyrion is still trying to get Dany on the throne, while Varys is literally plotting against her. Its blatant treason, what do you expect him to do? Varys himself wasn't surprised.

[quote]Everytime I remember that Season 7 plotline it makes me more upset [R340]. So silly.

When you think about it, it gets worse.

What was the gain from the wight hunt? Dany lost a dragon, Thoros and Benjen died, but ok they caught the rotting fuck. They take it to Cersei who is ultimately unmoved by the sight of it and backs out of her deal to send Lannister troops.

Only one person on the “bad” side seems moved enough to act: Jaime. Jaime whose northern trek in hindsight we now know had absolutely no purpose. He contributed nothing of note to the battle of Winterfell, he provided no fatal blow, nothing. Even Bran’s hint he was there for a reason was bullshit. Jaime could’ve just stayed by Cersei’s side at the end of season 7 and he would be in the exact same place he is now— buried under a bunch of bricks.

The worst thing about that plot was the absurd timing. They’re stranded in the winter, no food, surrounded by wights and walkers waiting for the ice to freeze which should not take long given the frigid weather. They send Gendry to run back to Castle Black and send a raven to StormsEnd, thousands of miles away, and Dany shows up in time to rescue them.

r358, killing Varys with dragon fire was a plot device to have Tyrion sentenced to death only to emerge from th dragon fire a true unburnt Targ. Hopefully, as Dany did when she exited the burning Khal temple, he will also be NAKED!

I think the purpose of Jaime going North, telling Bran he wasn't the same man, sleeping with Brienne was him wanting to be that good guy. He wanted to fight for the living and maybe atone for being a dick previously. He wanted to change for the better.

But when he heard Cersei was in danger, he *had* to go to her. She is such a huge part of his life, kind of like an infection, and he just couldn't get rid of her. He might not have liked leaving Brienne, but his need for Cersei was something he couldn't stop. He was an addict for her. I'm sure he was disgusted with himself as he went back to her, but that didn't matter when he actually found her- he got his fix and was satisfied.

I don't think his plot was pointless- it showed that no matter how much you might want something (to be free of her) sometimes you're not strong enough to give something up.

Was it satisfying for fans? No. Personally, I would have rather had him kill her, but it makes sense for the characters. At least Jaime- he just couldn't live without her. (She would've been fine without him, she hired Bronn to kill him ffs. She really was cold and that's part of the reason I wanted her to have a less loving death).

At any rate, Jaime is an example of wanting to change but not being able to.

Jaime is the guy in AA who year after year gets his one year toke.

I think people would have accepted Jamie's arc if he hadn't seduced Brienne and broken her heart.

[quote]Jaime is the guy in AA who year after year gets his one year toke.

You can smoke pot at AA meetings?

Yes, r367. That was a mistake. Knighting her was enough.

Jamie going North was pointless unless he knocked up Brienne, Brienne gives birth to a little Lannister, and the wheel just keeps turning . . .

Would it really be a Lannister, though? The house is more or less broken, all of its major players dead. Brienne would raise the child, boy or girl, with Tarthian values.

I agree that the knighting was the true culmination of Jamie and Brienne's arc, and showed a respect and affection that was soured by the sex and Jamie's desertion.

I suppose that Tyrion isn't dead, but I like to think that if he lives he'd be a good influence on Brienne's child.

Brienne being pregnant would be absolutely insulting to her. She loved this man, slept with him a few times, he dumped her, died in the arms of his real love, and now she gets the 'privilege' of raising his kid? I really hope that doesn't happen, but it wouldn't surprise me.

However, since Gilly is pregnant, maybe that's all the fetuses we need. I hope it's not Arya, too. Especially since she's now 'embraced living' what better way to reward her than for her to be pregnant? Barf.

Brienne probably won't ever love a man again. She won't let herself be weak and vulnerable anymore. Fuck you very much, Jaime

R304 No Robert made Joffrey the rightful heir when he was age. Ned didn't write down Joffrey's name. Ned was part of the problem

Fan reaction to watching this last season of GOT.

If Brienne was pregnant and stayed in Winterfell her kid would be a bastard and have the name Snow. And we'd have another bastard Snow at Winterfell. Even if it was Jaime's kid and everyone knew it, could she legally name him a Lannister without the father being around to confirm it? She would need a king or queen to legitimize it, like Dany did for Gendry, I'd think.

R375 I was like that only when Mountain started to poke out the Hound's eyes. I didn't want another Oberyn situation. Luckily it looked like Sandor still had his eyeballs when he died.

If there's anyone close to the Starks or Lannisters on the throne, they'd probably be happy to legitimize Brienne's kid. But I hope the show doesn't go that way.

Tyrion could legitimize the kid as his heir, but he might want his own child to be his heir. His child with Sansa.

They needed the Night King to get a dragon. Hence the silly 'bring a white walker to Cersei' plotline.

Yes, but the Mountain had a good grip on the Hound’s head and two thumbs right on his eyes. They should have been eye sushi. Did the Mountain forget how to gouge?

[quote]that's all the fetuses we need.

A truth for all times, all situations.

There could have been other ways to accomplish that end, r380. Dany could have gone on a reconnaissance mission over the wall with Jon on a second dragon.

[quote]I think people would have accepted Jamie's arc if he hadn't seduced Brienne and broken her heart.

Yeah, that’s a big problem because unlike what D&D might be attempting, you just can’t undue seven previous seasons of story and character arcs in the mind of the audience. Jaime and Brienne were already tied together as companions, and upon her knighting, that bond is even further strengthened, with them finally hooking up making it official:

What happens to Brienne affects Jaime and what happens to Jaime affects Brienne.

D&D can try to ignore it but it leaves us in the audience asking, “Hey, wait a second...” about the entire thing.

I think you are on to something, r364. In the scene where Tyrion is talking to Dany about Varys betraying her he is standing in front of a stone carved dragon. The camera lingers on him in front of that dragon carving. Foreshadowing? Oh, I think so.

Dany did what Missandei told her to do. Dracarys. Almost seemed like Dany is giving Jon every reason to rethink that "I don't want the Iron Throne!" thought. They rang the bell and she still burned King's Landing.

As for Jaime and Cersei, they were fraternal twins. They were born together and they died together. I'm not upset that neither escaped a particularly gory death.

Was the Hound's ultimate goal to kill Cersei or to kill the Mountain. Anybody else who kept shouting at the Hound, "The Mountain is ALREADY dead! You can't kill him by stabbing him."? And boy, did the Mountain LOOK like he was dead. How many years has he been like that?

I teared up when Arya called him Sandor and said thank you.

What is with the fan obsession with everybody being pregnant? There were people insisting up through season 7 that Ramsay MUST have knocked up Sansa, even though he last touched her in season 5.

It was out of character for the Jaime who grew as a man and actually found his humanity for the past three seasons. It would have been better is he just told her that he had to leave to try and save his sister from herself so she didn’t destroy what is left of their world. She still could have had the emotional good-bye if she confessed that she loved him and he still decided to go. It would have been a true heroes journey for him. And freed her up to consider another suitor like Tormund. Not for a lifetime but he knows how to make love to a woman judging by his advice to Jon on how to please Ygritte before climbing the wall.

Euron working his euro audience now that his GoT gig is up. He was such a POS character, I'm looking forward to seeing him in more things.

[quote]There could have been other ways to accomplish that end, [R380]. Dany could have gone on a reconnaissance mission over the wall with Jon on a second dragon.

Yes, but that's the way THEY (i.e. Dumb & Dumber) chose to do it.

Plus, you'd still have to come up with a credible excuse for why Dany would need to go on the other side of the wall with a dragon.

Whatever the reason, it'd have felt contrived and artificial, because everyone can see through the REAL reason, the Night King getting a dragon.

Lena Headey was great tonight and looked very pretty in her dress.

The fact the mad king fucked Tyrion's Mom is nowhere in the show, so, no more secret Targaryen. I'm so tired of Jon Snow stupidity, I wont even mad if Dany kill him, as long that entire lineage die forever. Robert was right all along.

Gotta go!

r393 My absolute favourite moment of the episode! Like something out of The Office.

Someone explain me why the thread is grayed? If you don't wanna know what happened, don't read it?

After Daenerys became worst than the NK, I felt sorry for Cersei, she wasn't a bad queen after all.

Yes, why was this thread greyed out?

I wonder if a thread is grayed automatically after a certain number of people have blocked it. Spoiler avoiders and non-fans in this case.

R395 EXCUSE ME?????

Non-GoT people just got annoyed with it and blocked the thread, that's all.

One of my issues is that everything and everyone seems to ultimately go out with a whimper, like the NK. After the build up, it would have been nice to see Cersei and her army put up more of a fight. It was all too one sided. I know Cersei had her moment in ep 4, but it was still too black and white. Ep 4- Cersei prevails, Ep 5 - goes to Dany. Maybe they should have combined these episodes to make it seem more balanced. For a character like Cersei to be demolished so easily is disappointing. I thought the action in the ep was pointless. I didn't need to see 80 minutes of people running from dragon fire.

R388, good point, even though I'm one of the few who didn't see romantic chemistry between Jaime and Brienne. Jaime's actions were another example of underwhelming and the writers taking the easy way out.

I have a question... in the next episode will everyone know about Jon Snow? Varys wrote everything down. I assumed that when he tried to get Jon to turn against Dany that was the treason. However, Dany knew they all knew, so I was confused why she stated to Tyrion that Jon betrayed her. Of course he told her it was Varys. I mean Jon told Sansa, but Dany knew that. I guess she thought Jon was planning a revolt. I have to rewatch that scene. I must say, they have dumbed down Tyrion a lot the last few seasons.

R392 It's never stated he fucked her, just that he lusted after her

The reality is Cersei was never really worthy of being the final villian r400. Dragons are on another playing field, the Targs were able to come through and conquer Westeros because they had three dragons. Just like Dany does.

The army of the dead was the big physical threat, something that was scarier than even Dany and her dragons.

Once you get rid of them, there is no physical threat which is why they had to shift to Dany being the villian quickly. Cersei was never a real villian, it just took stupid writing why Dany hadn't dispatched with her a season and a half ago.

The thread got greyed out because you queens and fraus sound tiresome.

Agree r402. I loved Lena as Cersei, but she really should've been killed last season. She was hardly in this season- I'd be surprised if she had 15 minutes of screen time.

Episode 5 mini-doc

[quote]I'd be surprised if she had 15 minutes of screen time.

Most of which was her silently looking out from high places.

I agree about Cersei being killed off last season. It should've happened and I feel the same about the WW. Those two battles should have compromised last season. This season should have been about Jon vs. Dany. This show had so many filler episodes through the years, how many seasons did we see the Hound and Arya just traveling around... the ending should not be this rushed. I feel this is Lost 2.0.

Comprised^

I can't even remember how Lost ended. Something with a church? Idk, didn't leave much of an impact.

Like it or hate it, I think I'll remember the end to GoT.

At this point, the person with the best claim to the Iron Throne is Tyrion Lannister. If Danerys doesn't take the throne, and it doesn't look like she will, Tyrion is next of king of the last person to hold the throne and he's known to all the Lords of Westeros as a competent member of the Small Council, and if he and Sansa killed Joffrey well worse things have happened since. And if they agree that his marriage to Sansa is valid and they get her to agree to be queen, well, she's also been running one of the Seven Kingdoms, and making her Queen will put an end to this independent North nonsense! If Sansa and Tyrion rule, everybody wins!

Except this bastard deserter from the Night's Watch who was calling himself Kinginthenorth for a while, who claims he's the secret child of Rheagar Targaryan, and dead for three days so his vows to the Night's Watch don't matter. Oh well, King Tyrion can pardon the guy if he likes.

Lena did the best she could with what she was giving this season, which wasnt much!

"Tyrion is next of king "

Next of KIN!!! Goddamn autocorrect.

And I agree with the person who said the last season should have been about Dany vs. Jon. Instead, we're going to get one fucking episode. They really could have gotten three seasons out of the story they've crammed into six episodes - one season of good guys vs. the Night's King, one season of the good guys vs. Cersei, and one season of Jon vs. Dany. Why the hell did they have to rush it all, HBO would have paid for three more years!

I don't see Sansa leaving Winterfell. If she was queen, wouldn't she have to move to KL?

It'll probably be Bran and Sansa can be warden of the North or whatever.

Though, I don't hate the idea of Tyrion and Sansa ending up together. They seem to have a nice understanding of each other and things.

[quote]I'd be surprised if she had 15 minutes of screen time.

13 minutes is the count I saw on some awards board. I guess since she was still in half the season she qualifies for supporting actress but Christie has a much stronger tape even if HBO isn’t running her.

The writers made a mistake centering the show around Cersei in the latter seasons and painted themselves into a corner because of it. She got two seasons of great material in 5&6 and than just sat around until her big anticlimactic confrontation and death.

[quote] I can't even remember how Lost ended. Something with a church? Idk, didn't leave much of an impact.

I was a bit weird since I only watched the last season, and enjoyed it a lot. I had watched the series premiere but I just couldn't get into it and just forgot about the show. Then one night I changed the channel and there was Lost, one of the first episodes of the last season, and I realized I really like what I'm seeing, and I ended up watching all the remaining episodes. The last two episodes were great, I enjoyed them so much and found them so sad. It turned out ***SPOILER*** all people had already died and the last season was all about them being in limbo between life and death. I didn't follow the online chatter about the show but I vaguely remember some people hating the ending.

I just want to take a moment to praise Gwendolyn Christie, who has taken a character who didn't have a lot of realism or depth in the books, and made her into a totally believable person and a standout member of the cast.

Long may she wave! I hope she has one of those long, long careers that good British actors do, and keeps doing movies, TV, and theater until she's Judi Dench's age.

Agreed r416....that huge broad bought a ton of talent to the GOT

I don't mind the violence.

I am rooting for the dwarf. I hope he ends up on the throne...not likely I know.

The only thing that really I can't swallow was Cersei being a sniveling mess in her final moments. I would've preferred anger or defiance "I am Cersei of House Lannister, this is not the way I die!"

Something like that.

Maybe behind that cunt facade is deep down a scared woman especially when faced with her obvious imminent demise. She knew she was fucked and couldnt accept it.

No man has turned her down before.

During the scene when Euron Greyjoy miraculously survives the dragon attack and shows up on the secret beach at the exact same time as Jamie, did anyone else notice the shark jumping in the background?

[quote]Twitter is losing it over how stupid it all was.

Yes, but that's become Twitter's job - propagating trollshit in an effort to influence public opinion against series and films, in order to harm filmmakers' bottom line.

The shark doesn't jump. The shark is jumped over preferably by a guy in a leather jacket on a motorcycle.

The phrase may be changed to "capturing the wight".

Daenerys promised to kill Tyrion if he failed her again. His letting Jaime Lannister loose will not have escaped her notice. Probably one of the first things out of the bag next episode will be her either killing him, or sentencing him to be put to death, contributing to the overall resistance of the other characters.

Trial by combat-John versus Greyworm?

[quote]I'm kind of disappointed with the Hound's story. I thought the Lord of Light actually had plans for him. Okay, he was meant to save Arya from the zombies so she could kill the Night King, but when he didn't drop dead like Melisandre or Beric did when the Lord of Light was finished with them, I thought maybe he had something important still to do. Killing his zombie brother was kind of meh.

He [italic]did[/italic] have something important left to do - he changed Arya's mind about killing Cersei and dying at King's Landing. He put her feet on a different path. That's worth something.

Arya may have to handle Daenerys now. A good way to get close to the Mad Queen would be to kill Greyworm and take his face, since he's just about the last one she trusts. When she lands her dragon, she's going to want to kill Tyrion first thing, because he let Jaime Lannister loose. And she'll probably decide to go the whole way and eliminate the 'last of the Starks.'

[quote]They didnt even start showing Dany go slightly insane till recently so yes it was rushed and bad writing.

R193, you just haven't been paying attention. She's been something of a nut from the very beginning, burning Dothraki and wizards alive. Advisers like Selmy, Jorah Mormont, Missandei, and Tyrion were constantly having to talk her out of her worst instincts. When she killed the Tarleys and all who wouldn't bend the knee, you had to know what kind of a ruler she'd eventually turn out to be. And now, all those level-headed voices are gone. She was wigging out in the last episode over how people preferred Jon to her. Nothing about her madness has been rushed.

What was the point of Cersei's pregnancy? It seemed as if that was a storyline that was going to be important and NOTHING ever came of it.

R430, let's first wait and see if she's really dead before making that kind of pronouncement.

Cersei’s pregnancy convinced Tyrion that she was sincere in her “deal” with Dany. On the other hand, that fake deal differed from her saying “No deal” only to the extent that it meant Tyrion could escape with his life. Otherwise, it was ultimately pointless.

Did they run out of money? They sure didn't spend much on wigs. Lena's wig was horrendous!

R430, D&D confirmed her death in the after show. I believe Lena confirmed as well.

I think Dany is going to want to kill Tyrion , but she'll bite it before she gets the chance. I'm not expecting a great death, they've all been lackluster so far. I really disliked yesterday's ep and I'm not one of the usual groaners.

I don't mind Dany turning bad, I've seen it coming since the start, but they really needed to flesh it out, as has been said it all just feels too rushed at this point. D&D clearly were dunzo and just wanted outta there onto whatever they're doing next. It's a shame. Hopefully GRRM will get his goddamned books out and we can get the story told properly, with time and care.

Looking forward to seeing what the show's best writer has next

Dany did not turn bad. She is a woman scorned and abandoned.

Lannisters have incestuous pairings.

Targaryens have incestuous marriages.

Jon is such a dumb fuck.

Jon killed the people of KL.

[Quote]She's been something of a nut from the very beginning, burning Dothraki and wizards alive When she killed the Tarleys and all who wouldn't bend the knee, you had to know what kind of a ruler she'd eventually turn out to be

Yeah, David and Dan argue the same thing but there is a reason so many people don't buy it. None of that was madness, it was dealing with enemies in an ruthless way. Her actions were logical and perfectly sane.

Burning down a city that surrendered for zero logical reason, an action that actually hurts you is madness. It is just being a crazy person. Going into that leap justifies way more build up than it got.

Yes, Cerseis pregnancy was just a narrative device to get Tyrion to act like an idiot and insist over and over that Cersei would do the right thing.

When one justifies burning enemies alive, R439, it's only a matter of time until one such crosses over into burning the innocent. Atrocity is atrocity.

That's a ludicrous attempt at an argument. And it isnt burning innocents, it is burning innocents for absolutely no strategic reason, just because the character is now crazy.

Dany treated KL as her own personal Gomorrah.

I'm with R438. In the book's world, she had justification for those things. She burned the Dothraki khals because they wanted to keep her in some widow's convent. She burned the witch who double-crossed her by turning her husband into a vegetable. She burned the wizards who stole her dragons. She burned the Tarlys who wouldn't bend the knee, no different than her ancestor Aegon the Conqueror demanded when he and his sister-wives conquered Westeros with their three dragons. It was bend the knee or be burnt alive. I've heard others say she just watched as Viserys died, which also showed early signs of being crazy. Well, Viserys had just put a sword to her belly and threatened to cut out her unborn baby, not to mention the years of abuse she put up with at his hands. When Khal Drogo killed him, she got the same satisfaction that Sansa did by releasing Ramsay's hounds on him. No one is calling Sansa crazy for that because it was justified, just like all these examples used to show Dany is somehow mad.

Slaughtering innocent people, including children, is a far, far cry from the things outlined above. There's no reason behind it other than she suddenly snapped, which just doesn't fit with the character arc. Obviously the showrunners don't care about character arcs. Look what they did to Jaime. Look how they turned Tyrion from smart to an idiot. So many examples. It's just piss-poor, lazy writing.

[quote]That's a ludicrous attempt at an argument. And it isnt burning innocents, it is burning innocents for absolutely no strategic reason, just because the character is now crazy.

Even if one accepted the rationale that burning people was an acceptable way of handling problems, she still began drifting over the line when she started putting people to death merely for not bending the knee.

If you can justify Dany doing it in GoT, you can justify Christians doing it to heretics and unbelievers in the Middle Ages. Your value system is broken.

Let me just remind you, there has been NO good dick in this season.

I agree with both sides. I am not shocked at her descent into madness, she was always ruthless. She was never challenged as much as she has been recently, so her completely losing it because she isn't always winning like before isn't that far fetched. It's just with the fast pace of the last season they haven't given it enough time to slowly unfurl her next level of crazy, but it's always been lurking in the background.

Jesus, R444, no one is justifying burning. In the show's world, her actions are not those of someone who is mad and unhinged. She had a purpose and reason behind those events. There was simply none for her burning of King's Landing other than going full cuckoo, which just does not comport with the character arc. We're all hoping if George goes this way in the book, he'll make it a more logical progression.

Indeed R445. We DESERVED another look at Kit Harington's sweet ass.

Another flashing red light with Dany was the moment she said goodbye to Daario before going on to Westeros. She mused afterwards how she felt "nothing." That's not good.

And, to your point, R445, Dany really should have kept Daario around. He was more attractive than Jon, and would have been genuinely loyal and helpful to her.

Also the actress Emilia Clarke can't really project Dany's majestic royal cray cray. Though, the rushed season and shitty script isn't a cakewalk for these artistes.

Cersei needed to suffer a lot more than she did.

Her sobbing about not wanting to die. Umm, if that was high up on your list of priorities, how about not pissing off the lady with the army and dragons.

Trust me George, we know the idea of you finishing 2 books in 8 years is absurd.

Yeah, I loved that rumor, but I didn't believe it.

That is bogus. He has finished them.

R290, how stupid are you that you couldn't figure out that was the mother and daughter, burned alive because Arya made them leave?

Dumbass.

R454 Why would all of his international publishers agree to that? They make MILLIONS of these books

R419 - Cersei was ready to poison herself and Tommen during the battle of the black water and was quivering with fear. Her being a little bitch at the end wasn’t bothersome; her getting a dignified death was.

They should never have made Cersei the endgame baddie if they wanted to go the MadDany route, but they have suuuuch a chub for Lena chewing scenery.

Kings Landing should have been steamrolled in Season 6 with Dany’s massive forces and alliance, become Queen, then have to fight the white walkers. Slowly going crazy as the small folk revolt against her reign and the Dothraki, and as the realms rally around the northern hero Jon for defeating the white walker threat. Sister can’t catch a break and she goes mad.

But nope. Queen Cersei got to limp along for 3 seasons. 🙄

R414 I was disappointed with Gwendoline Christie’s acting in the he last episode.

Lena was the star of the show, with Kit trailing behind in second place.

Really? Why?

I am not impressed with Gwendoline Christie. she looks like a man and I don't see her in projects after this is over. She towers over everyone. Maybe if they made a movie about WNBA players.

To me the dwarf is the star of the show. I loved the daddy he killed as well, very nice voice.

It's been said already, but the show would have been better off letting Lena go earlier. Just because you like an actor doesn't mean you should keep them around longer than it makes sense for the plot.

Though it's almost amusing how other actors had to work their tail off through tiring night shoots and Lena just had to stand around and look fabulous for a few scenes. Easy money.

You said literally nothing about her talent r461, just her looks.

Also perhaps I'm a sociopath but I wasn't moved by the slaughter of the citizens of King's Landing. I'm not a sociopath in fact the writers didn't do this well.

I think Gwendoline is an ok actress, but I have to admit one of the reasons I didn't buy her and Jaime is because of her looks. She is way too tall and masculine. I could see her with Tormund more than Jaime.

Jamie and Gwendoline are not compatible, maybe if she was fucking him in the ass then ok, maybe I buy the relationship.

Not r461 but I don’t think GC can act that well. She had to shift gear this season from being griff and vulnerable and physical to being gruff and vulnerable and emotional and she brought no shades or new aspects to the fore. She is oddly flat.

And now she is onstage London in A Midsummer Night's Dream as Titania.

I mean considering Jaime walked away from Brienne I don't even know what you are arguing about. Jaime didn't really love Brienne that much. Nothing compared to how he felt about Cersei

I mean he slept with her, but what does that mean? It almost seemed more like a pity fuck when he found out she was a virgin.

Who left has green eyes?

Tyrion? Dany?

Jamie fucking Brienne was a sort of no-homo brofuck. It was a pity fuck. He liked Brienne a lot but didn't love her. Brienne was his buddy.

R471, Emilia Clarke has green eyes. (In the books, Dany has violet eyes).

If you're asking because of the Arya thing, I think Littlefinger was the green eyes she killed. She's done with that- Night King was the last.

[quote] but I have to admit one of the reasons I didn't buy her and Jaime is because of her looks. She is way too tall and masculine.

He didn't sleep with her because of her looks--the first few times he met her he made very clear he finds her unattractive.

He slept with her because he grew to love her for who she is inside.

Jaime certainly loved and respected Brienne as a human being and as a knight. As a romantic partner? Like I said before, Jaime seemed to decide to sleep with Brienne once he found out she was a virgin.

There are many kinds of love, I don't think Jaime loved Brienne the way she loved him, which was obviously sexual/romantic. That was the conflict, she wanted him to, but he didn't really.

R475, I agree that's the most character-rich rationale, but doesn't seem to be true in the show the way he just fucked off to KL to reunite with his sister-lover. D&D treated it like it was nothing more than a drunken mistake that made him realize that he could not love Brienne because he was truly in love with the sister. You know -- the one that he raped in the Sept over their son's dead body.

SMH

I mean the writing couldn't be more clear that there was never any room in Jaime's heart for someone other than Cersei. He basically willed himself to walk while dying just so they could be there together at the end.

I mean it is a gross incestuous love with someone who treats him terrible, but Jaime's love for Cersei is basically the strongest love we see anyone have in the series. I mean Jaime himself tells that to Cat, when he tried to argue that he loves Cersei more than Ned loved her.

R475, I have no doubt that Jaime grew to love Brienne, but I felt it was as a friend who he has great respect for. She loved him romantically but it wasn't reciprocated.

[quote] when he tried to argue that he loves Cersei more than Ned loved her.

Who was more dongful? Jaime or Ned?

Probably Jaime

That's what a sociopath would say, blame others for their lack of empathy. I personally was so upset I had to take a sleeping pill, (I know, Mary!), but mothers and daughter roasted hugging was just too much. But I guess this was necessary to wake up Jon, talk about a deal breaker.

I really think that Jaime should have gone to KL to kill Cercei to cleanse himself of his wrongdoings but when he sees her, he can't do it and tries to help her escape instead and dies for trying to do it. Though I want her to have a horrible death, which she so richly deserved.

It's annoying that so many fans don't understand the difference between standard methods of Westeros/Medieval warfare, and insanity.

It's infuriating that the show's writers don't understand the difference!

Because yes, it's absolutely standard for a medieval warlord (or Westerosian or Essosian) to be bent on conquest, to kill people on the spot if they don't bend the knee, to slaughter all your enemies at once if they're stupid enough to gather in one place, and to slaughter entire social groups that are being troublesome. It's also standard to kill your enemies' entire families down to the last child, because that child could grow up to be Arya Stark, and it's also standard to let your soldiers sack entire towns and cities occasionally, that is, to kill and rape anyone they can grab, to steal anything they can hold, and burn any building they're sober enough to torch, but Danerys has always been too high-minded for that. Or she was for seven and a half seasons, anyway.

R484, it was considered immoral even in our Middle Ages to slaughter unarmed people after they had surrendered. And Dany’s real claim to the Iron Throne has always been based on her being superior to the average warlord. If she’s like everyone else, there’s no point to supporting her.

And, of course, Dany is not a historical person. She’s a part of a modern work of fiction; we are entitled to judge her by 2019 standards.

I thought Peter Dinklage did a good job with his last scene with Jaime. It was some of the better acting we got from him in a while. He didn't just phone that in.

But as soon as he said 'you were the only one who never treated me like a monster', etc, I knew Jaime was a goner. Oh well.

R484, it's not standard method to destroy a city unnecessarily that you are supposed to rule from. Nor is it standard to alienate the people she is to rule. Dany is an egomaniac who can't stand losing. She has no military strategy or common sense. You can keep going on and on about how she is the freer of slaves, the breaker of chains etc.. and only punished those who deserved it, but they never seriously challenged her. When her authority is challenged, she loses it and shows her true colors. How is she any different than the aforementioned enslavers she slaughtered? She wants to rule at all costs, even when she knows she is not the rightful heir and the people would rather have Jon. She has always been a tyrant. I don't know why so few people have not seen this back in season 1. Sansa and Jon better watch their backs next week.

"[R484], it was considered immoral even in our Middle Ages to slaughter unarmed people after they had surrendered. And Dany’s real claim to the Iron Throne has always been based on her being superior to the average warlord. "

"R484], it's not standard method to destroy a city unnecessarily that you are supposed to rule from. Nor is it standard to alienate the people she is to rule."

My point WAS, that for seven and a half season, she was better than the average medieval king or warlord, she was ruthless and willing to use fear and killing in pursuit of her goals, but she wasn't willing to slaughter the innocent en masse or kill for no reason. And then in the space of ONE OR TWO FUCKING EPISODES, she changed into someone who not only killed, but killed without a reason, and killed in ways that would hurt her cause rather than help it! With no real character development to explain the change.

And her claim to the throne wasn't based on moral superiority, it was based on her being the only surviving child of the last Targaryan king. And in addition to all the other shit they've pulled, they've forgotten that Varys wasn't supporting her because she was a wonderful person, but because she was a Targaryan. He was supporting the Targaryan cause when the horrid Viserys was the heir!

When Varys is writing those little “sent by raven” type notes, who the hell was he sending them to? The Maesters at the Citadel? The Iron Bank? Who was he telling about Jon’s real parentage at this stage of the game?

R489, but prior to this season no one had killed her best friend/confident or her second dragon. She also has a real threat to her goal to rule in Jon. She's losing control. Is it rushed? Yes. Is it totally out of character? No.

R490, given the power vacuum, are any local powerbrokers left besides Sansa, Robin Arryn and this unnamed new Prince of Dorne?

I kind of doubt that those notes were thought out beyond giving Varys some evidence to destroy when he heard the inevitable footsteps.

Variety! Sure, R491, 90% out of character is not quite "totally out of character."

The biggest problem here is that D&D overruled HBO's wishes for more episodes, and instead of delivering 10 episodes last season and 10 episodes this year (or more), they rushed the job to get on with their lives making blockbuster cash with Disney.

Their greatest sin is that they could have left 2 years ago and just handed the show over to Cogman or others, but instead they held on and half-assed it. I believe that they were afraid that the show's quality would have improved after they left, and they couldn't tolerate that being so obvious. Instead they have lots of defenders claiming that this dumpster fire could only ever have been exactly like it turned out -- melodramatic and silly.

" She's losing control. Is it rushed? Yes. Is it totally out of character? No. "

The thing is, the Mad Dragon Queen story really could have been great, if they'd done it right. If they'd had Dany being increasingly unstable over, say, the last two seasons, and maybe Missandei had been doing her damndest to keep anyone else from realizing how bad Danerys wass in private, and she'd refused to eat or sleep or do anything rational after the first dragon died and Tyrion and Varys were wondering if their cause was lost, and she'd pulled herself together to fight the Others... stuff like that. Imagine if there had been a properly done slow burn, and all the viewers were starting to worry about her mental state... and the point where she finally cracked for real was when the bells rang and she started laughing like her crazy father and gave Drogon the order to burn the city... imagine how great that would have been!

Instead, they had her change into a different person in the course of TWO episodes. It's a hack rush job, and I'm pissed.

Also, was watching a tv program and they said in a scene where cersei and jamie were hugging, you could see Jamie's real hand...the one that's chopped off lol.

The mother and daughter got separated from Arya that is why they died. Also the place they were staying also was burned. Wonder what happened to the little girl leaning.

No Sansa this episode worries me. I expect something big to happen to her next.

[quote] Jamie fucking Brienne was a sort of no-homo brofuck. It was a pity fuck. He liked Brienne a lot but didn't love her. Brienne was his buddy.

Jamie felt deeply unworthy of love. That's why he left Lady Brienne.

Impressive HBO behind the scenes look at this episode. The special effects with green scenes, the art direction, the stunts, the camera work, the trouper actors, all that fire - you name it. Astonishing work.

^Dang. "Green screens."

[quote]They should never have made Cersei the endgame baddie if they wanted to go the MadDany route

“Endgame baddie”? Christ almighty, this isn’t a comic book. It’s about how political power and absolute power corrupts.

[quote]Jamie felt deeply unworthy of love. That's why he left Brienne.

No, he only loved Cersei and had to try to rescue her, which was what was onscreen, not Frau Fanfic.

Right. Jaime has always been noble and reasonably honest with himself. He loves Brienne the way he loves Tyrion but when he knew Cersei was going to die he knew he would be dead without her. Their ending made perfect sense to me.

I thought the ending for Jaimie and Cersei was perfect. His saying "Nothing else matters, it's only us. It's only us" reminds us that this twisted, dysfunctional relationship was what set the chaos and turmoil in motion, fathering inbred children, and with Bran getting pushed out the window, Cersei arranging her husband's hunting accident, Edd Stark's beheading, etc. They deserved to have the Red Keep to fall on their heads and get crushed to death (not a pleasant way to go.)

[quote]Behold the Valonqar

r504 Fun fact: "valonqar" can mean both "little brother" and "debris".

The show purposely left off the Valonqar prophecy, they apoarently never planned on Jaime killing her like will no doubt happen in the books.

Yeah, I have a feeling Dan and Dave changed things around here and there to fit their vision. I think Jaime's story is one of the major things they changed. I hope George RR Martin continues with Jaime's redemption arc and sees it through. Hard to say about prophecy, though. Some of Melisandre's visions came true, but she was terrible at interpreting what she saw. In the first season/book, the Dosh Khaleen priestess or whatever she was said Dany's son would be the Stallion Who Mounts the World. Instead, the baby died. Some of Maggy the Frog's prophecies for Cersei came true. She married the king, he had a bunch of children and she had three and all three died (Gold will be their shrouds). Maybe the younger brother prophecy will come true.

Azor Ahai, who knows about that one. In the books, there is no Night King, so I have no idea how the heroes are going to defeat the Others. Will it be like the show, where it is just one kill and they all disappear? It seemed like from the prophecy, either Jon or Dany was Azor Ahai and one of them would be crucial in defeating the white walkers/the Others. But clearly not all prophecies come true in the book or show, so who knows which will come to pass? The show seems to be ignoring Azor Ahai, unless Jon killing Dany, which I think will likely happen, is supposed to be the fulfillment of that prophecy.

Cough cough

Dany made it clear:" I'm not loved here"-in other places the citizenry took arms and helped fight with her out of love and respect for her. Here, however, she had only fear that would make them submit. Plus she was pissed. Cersi had just killed her dragon and her loyal assistant. Cersi proved herself ruthless and Dany said Cersi would use any mercy she showed her against her. To me what followed made sense. It was the Jamie/Brienne hook up that was unnecessary. Jamie's arc is that he's grown and matured as a more honest guy capable of love. Then he basically makes it clear to Brienne it meant nothing and he's running back to piece of shit Cersi. A total bitch who really NOTHING about her was right or good or even attractive to him.

R490--- Ravens fly directly to TMZ with that info.

Oh, Dany!

D&D are retconning again. In Meereen, Dany faced the Sons of the Harpy who were basically winning until she lovelessly married a local slave-monger to co-rule with. But now that's all forgotten because her subjects' feelings for her rule needs to be summed up in one word: LOVE.

King's Landing had plenty of people who were disgusted by Cersei's destruction of the Great Sept with everyone in it. Do D&D expect us to forget Cersei's coronation scene? These people were primed and ready to give her their respect, but for Dany to be aware of this or acknowledge it would make her post-surrender killing spree even more ridiculous than it already is.

[quote] It was the Jamie/Brienne hook up that was unnecessary. Jamie's arc is that he's grown and matured as a more honest guy capable of love. Then he basically makes it clear to Brienne it meant nothing and he's running back to piece of shit Cersi.

Jamie has always been honest about himself and noble in his way. Jaime renounced his birthright and joined the Kingsguard for Cersei. He is the most beautiful man in Westeros but he will not have sex with another person. He puts up with the sisterfucker jokes and doesn't deny any of it.

When Jaime chose to leave Kings Landing at the treat of death, he presented himself to Bran and Dany making no excuses for his behaviour, he chose to fight for the living not as the leader he has been but as a warrior answering to a woman, he knighted Brienne, he decided to stay in Winterfell and tried to love her as she loved him. But Jaime loved and respected Brienne the way he loved Tyrion. And when he realised Cersei was facing almost certain death he didn't want her to do it alone and willing to die in the process.

That to me isn't a guy who hasn't changed. It's a guy who has changed but can't escape what he is.

Arya's going to be another one who's changed but who can't escape who she is. As she found, Death doesn't go away when you ask.

And regarding "It’s about how political power and absolute power corrupts. "

No, that hasn't really been written into the show, there doesn't seem to be any moral message or any real point to the story. At least, not during season 8, where there's no point to anything that happens onscreen.

R512- Dany never married him, he was murdered by the Sons of the Harpy at the slave fighting pits.

There are a lot of things from the books that D&D talk about in the ‘inside the episode’ interviews but that is never mentioned in the show but that they assume that people already know about. One instance is Uncle Benjen becoming Cold Hands (or some name like that) that is specifically in the books and not really explained in the show but that we should know all about it. I don’t think the show really mentions the name Azor Ahai or really gets into the prophecy.

R286 What do you mean? Bran is the one who brought the white walkers to himself in order for them to be offed by Arya. They would go only where he was. He risked his life, although he banked on his visions to guide and save him.

Maybe Dany will say that she was just along for the ride and couldn't control Drogon because Bran warged and was controlling Drogon the whole time.

Am I the only one who doesn't think Dany's behaviour has come out of nowhere?

No, R518. I've been saying the same thing throughout this thread. I think there were definite signs she could snap from the beginning. I do think her complete insanity was a little rushed, but the people who say it was totally out of character were obviously not paying attention.

Dany's behavior is a result of finding out you have been abandoned. Your lover no longer loves you, your lover has become a rival, your #1 advisor has betrayed you for his worthless siblings, another advisor has tried to have you poisoned, you have lost two dragons, you realize the advice you were given about taking care of the North first was bullshit, and there is no reason to rule out of love because there is no love.

Dany did not suddenly decide to change her behavior. She did not snap.

SHE WAS FORCED TO!

She is like Medea, who left her status a princess, who left her home, who gave up everything for the man she loved only to be fucked over by him. And what did she do, she took the only thing away from him she could: she killed his children. She killed his legacy. Fuck off all those who cannot understand Dany's actions.

My only hate of Dumb and Dumber was NOT to have Dany FLAME Cersei DIRECTLY in the Red Keep.

Thank you, R520.. someone finally gets it..

[quote] No, he only loved Cersei and had to try to rescue her, which was what was onscreen, not Frau Fanfic.

He was ashamed of his incestuous relationship with Cersei. He did love her but it was both -- love and shame. He probably did not love Brienne but he understood what it was like to feel something and not be ashamed of it. Most of us DL girls know what that feels like.

[Quote]My only hate of Dumb and Dumber was NOT to have Dany FLAME Cersei DIRECTLY in the Red Keep.

So after your big rant you still admit the writing was stupid. They didn't have her after the Red Keep, cause that would have made too much sense.

They had to emphasize she is CRAZY(11!!!)

There is no doubt that the intent of this episode was to show that Dany went mad. Her choices will not be blamed on her being forced to act the way she did. All the things that happened to her pushed her into the crazytown.

It all could have been writing so much better but I guess madness setting in is hard to write?

r523, she razed the Red Keep after C had left.

The writing was stupid but that is apart from the valid reason Dany was not mad but hurt, wounded emotionally and alone.

She has no reason to care.

She want to break da wheel but da wheel broke her...

I think Dani’s behavior at least up to Now is considered normal for a queen. None of her many advisors told her she was nuts I have a problem with the dragons. When she chained them up she cried. They were her babies. Now two have died and I don’t recall one tear.

I fear the show has to give us some ‘shocking’ deaths. If a Stark is harmed I will stop watching.

[Quote]If a Stark is harmed I will stop watching.

Girl, you can't make this lame threat when we are on the final episode.

[quote]If a Stark is harmed I will stop watching.

What, the last 20 minutes?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(now tell me the post was sarcastic.)

I'm starting to think Dany could possibly survive. Maybe that's the bittersweet ending they talked about. She will rule, but it will be a terrible one by a crazy person. She will be the same as the rulers she's killed to free the slaves. I think Tyrion, Sansa and Arya will survive as well. With Jon and Dany, one will have to die.

Dany survives, enter Dario...

They really did make a mess of her going mad. They should have brought it on slowly and had everyone worried about her state of mind for the last two seasons at least, ramp up the tension like they did in King's Landing when Cersei and Margarey were fighting and things got out of control and it ended with the Sept of Baylor exploding.

Dany's going mad on dragonback should have been that kind of drama, the climax of long-standing tensions and a horrific shock that changed everything. As it was, it seemed to come out of fucking nowhere.

I'm beginning to think that the problems with this season really do begin with GRRM's story ideas, the ideas he could never put into book form, and the reason he's never finished the damn books and never will is because his ideas for the finale are crap!

Because if the big central drama of the finale is supposed to be Dany's madness and not the War Between the Living and the Dead, then well, Dany's Madness and the war with the Others really have nothing to do with each other! Dany didn't defeat the Night's King, and the Night's King didn't make Dany crazy. What the fucking fuck kind of pointless finale is that?

The reason for the flaws is quite simple. D & D were bored and rushed the series to get it over with so they can go work on their Star Wars movies. What should have played out over 20 episodes was squeezed into 10. They betrayed their fans by not grooming someone to take over if they wanted out.

The pacing of the show has been all wrong. I said this upthread, there should have been a central theme to each season. Cersei should have been killed last season or even the one before and the WW should have been gone as well by now. This season should only have been Jon vs. Dany only. I think the show didn't want to let go of certain actors like Lena earlier, so it was a major cop out and they sacrificed story for it. Honestly, the only super bold death they've had was Robb and that's really it, not counting Ned. Joffrey, Tywin etc.. were villains whose time had come and they weren't the main stars. Cersei time came as well but because she was a major character they needlessly dragged her until the end. The show played it safe because we still have the main players (descending order of importance), Dany, Jon, Cersei, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Jaime alive till the end.

"Honestly, the only super bold death they've had was Robb and that's really it, not counting Ned."

You're forgetting the Sept of Baylor!

That was absolutely superb filmmaking, and cleared out more main characters than the Red Wedding.

My guess is that Jon will die killing Dany, since he will see the Targaryens have to die out completely and they are the last of the line (they are just too vulnerable to insanity to keep living--they have brought too much destruction to Westeros).

The other Stark children will live to rule Westeros, with Sansa being the Lady of the North and Bran (perhaps) sitting on the Iron Throne. Unlike her siblings, Arya is not the type to rule--she will go off and have adventures if she survives next episode.

Team Tyrion + Sansa

[quote]Honestly, the only super bold death they've had was Robb and that's really it, not counting Ned.

What am I? Chopped dragon liver?

That's a silly thing to say when we don't know what GRRM's ending is r533. It will probably hit some of the same end points as the show, but obviously there are going to be big differences in how we get there. I mean the show doesn't even have the Aegon invasion plotline.

There are people who still fantasize that GRRM will actually finish his novels?

Stop bringing your spoilers in here, dicks. Adding the word perhaps in brackets only shows you up. Now fuck off.

R536, but they weren't the huge players on the show. Big in the plot at that time, but not in the larger picture.

R539, I was going to mention her, but even she wasn't as big as Robb, who was in the top 5 at the time he was killed off. She was a big one though, so granted that was major. Since then none of the really major characters have been killed off earlier than S8. I guess my bottom line is that Cersei should've gone earlier than this season and the WW too, considering the way it was handled. They didn't have the balls to do it. Cersei was an absolute waste this season and even some of S7.

No way is Bran going to rule, he is supernatural now and no longer really Bran. He has no interest in ruling anything.

R532 gets it right. The showrunners made a mess of Dany going mad. I have no doubt, though, George RR Martin intends the same thematic plot.

The book series is called a Song of Ice and Fire. At least in the books, and maybe the show, ice and fire are treated as two polar opposite but equally destructive forces threatening humanity. You have the Long Night in the Westeros past (i.e., the Others bringing seemingly endless winter and cold), as well as the Targaryen conquest with dragons (raining fire down on Westeros). The ice threat of the white walkers/Others has been dealt with. Now fire has to be eliminated as a threat. I see no other way than for Dany to be killed and probably Drogon taken out. The balance is restored, likely by Jon because he is a Stark representing winter and a Targaryen representing summer/fire, so Jon himself is a Song of Ice and Fire. My guess is that's why the last book title is going to be called a Dream of Spring because it gets to that balance. And for anyone who screams my post is SPOILERS, it's not, it's just a guess.

I keep seeing comments online that "they should have waited for Martin to catch up"

Um...yeah, the entire cast and crew would put their careers on hold for however many years. Witness Arya going full assassin while dealing with the effects of menopause!

Yeah David and Dan of course had no choice but to keep going, don't blame them for that.

I do blame them for demanding a short Season 7 and 8.

[quote] Honestly, the only super bold death they've had was Robb and that's really it, not counting Ned.

***ahem***

Has there ever been a case like this where a film or TV adaptation concluded before its original book series was finished?

No, I don't believe any production company has ever put this kind of money into a series of unfinished books, R548. I mean the Harry Potter movies were started before the series was finished, but Rowling finished the books while the films were made, and got to the end first.

HBO took a big gamble on paying for a half-finished story, but it was a gamble that paid off.

r520, you forgot the death of her constant companion and translator.

I'm thinking the quickest way for Jon Snow to neuter Dany is to just kill off the dragon. Without her fire breathing pony, she's just a mad chick with no skills and no ability to make anyone bend the knee.

r551, well you do have 3 dragon heads in the crypts of the King's Landing miniature in the opening credits.

Among the royal set, fucking your aunt (who is younger than you) doesn't seem that dramatic. Jon is pussy boy. He probably wants to rule but can't even admit it to himself.

[quote]Jon is pussy boy

Pics please.

R548, this happens all the time in Japanese anime. A anime is adapted from a graphic novel (manga) series that is ongoing, and has to improvise its ending because the manga may be years from wrapping up. The anime ending frequently has nothing to do with the manga ending.

And FOUR more fucking days of this cultural cluster fuck.

And there is a happily ever after episode NEXT week?

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

r556 What the actual hell are you talking about?

I have defended the writers’ choices for the most part because it’s their story to tell, but some aspects of this storytelling are maddeningly poor.

Jamie: Beginning last season, when he attacked the dragon, escaped the roasting by apparently drowning, escaped the drowning by swimming in a heavy metal armor with a heavy metal hand to the other side of a lake. I love NCW’s acting and so I forgave the plot because I like his performance. But the Euron fight, stabbed all the way through twice, and he still made it to smoochy smoochy with Cersei? Horrible and inexcusable. Definitely many dozens of tiers beneath what this show used to be.

The Night King killing by contrast...ugh. Jaime was stuck twice by a long sword last night and carried on, no problem. Yet after all that battling of the dead, the Night King went POOF as soon as Arya poked him with a dagger? Bah. That annoys me a lot. And given the build up of the winter coming and the long night coming, for it to be nothing more than that really makes it feel like a video game to me. It undid the drama of the series. Is winter still coming? All series long the characters discussed winter lasting for generations...is it over because the Night King was defeated? Am I dense, or is the writing that bad?

Varys seems to have magically teleported across continents from episode to episode...

Arya is officially Supergirl. I guess I am OK with that at this point. Whatever. I don’t know. The consequences of war have really been sacrificed.

And finally, I have loved the mythology of this show—particularly the conflicting different faith systems, with Melisandre’s having proved to have been real—but to what end? Now what? Does any of that matter at all or does this really come down to everyone versus dragon lady, and then everyone lives miserably ever after? It’s really annoying that this whole world was created with its own rulea of reality and in the end the rules are all broken just to put on a lot of action.

The one thing I ‘get’ is Danerys’s alleged madness. I think it’s perfectly in character—and not only because of the specific comments she has made alluding to burning cities. She has always been a narcissist. She has always used people. She freed slaves so that she would have followers. She made a comment after the long night battle at Winterfell, after she made Gendry a landed lord, that she isn’t dumb; she knows how to manipulate people to earn their loyalty. Sansa noticed the comment. To me that was a cue to realize that all of Dany’s apparent selflessness has been a manipulation to get people to follow her and fight for her. She has been playing everyone all along. She has had her eye on the throne and on revenging her family. I do hope she lays a few dragon eggs before she dies.

I liked Cersei’s and Jaime’s end but the fact he was practically killed beforehand and still managed to get to her ruined it. I would have liked it a lot had Euron been left out of the episode or killed on his boat.

I am really fearing at this point that maybe Jamie died when he was stabbed and dying with Cersei was his heaven, Arya was killed in the rubble and riding off on a horse was her heaven, etc. If this gets all LOST sentimental and metaphorical next episode I am going to cry.

Maybe 'useless' Bran sent Arya the horse.

R551, that would require too much logic on the writer's part. I kept wondering why Dany had to even assemble an army when all she needed to do was send the three dragons to KL. What she did in the last ep she could've done in S2 when the dragons matured.

It's all so terribly frustrating, because everything they've rushed through in slapdash fashion could have worked, if they'd taken the time to flesh it out and build suspense.

Dany's Madness seemed to come out of nowhere, when it should have been gradually building over the last two or three seasons, finally peaking at King's Landing. The War Between the Living and the Dead should have been more extended, there should have been more extended, more suspenseful, and should have been one of the factors that helped drive Dany over the edge - shouldn't having to face her zombie dragon "child" in battle have had an effect on her? We should have seen how Jamie and Brienne were as a couple, not just the bang and goodbye. Hound should have had some motivation for giving up his chance at a new life in the North, and going on a suicide mission against Frankenmountain. We should have seen now the rest of Westeros reacted to the news about the Long Night - did they react with disbelief and ingratitude?

It's so infuriating, with a little more time, well, a LOT more time, everything they tried to do could have worked.

Dany, not crazy but scorned and pissed.

Literally none of it has bothered me.

Dany going Black Swan was fine. The Jaime leaving Winterfell should have taken place the episode after she slept with Brienne, but may be that would not have mattered had Gwendoline Christie been more sensual. She had no heat on screen and no chemistry with him.

I don't get that relationship problems with Jon would drive her over the edge, at least, not the way they've done it. She's been married and widowed and courted by many men and engaged and had her Dario and was ready to make a political marriage as part of her campaign of conquest, she's hardly an innocent girl cracking up because she lost her first love. She's an experienced woman who has been through much worse things than having her boyfriend dump her because he found out she's his aunt.

In order for that to work, they needed to establish that she was giddy in love like she'd never been in her life, that her love for Jon was life-changing and turned her world upside-down and shocked her supporters, who were worried that she was so head over heels that she was throwing the throne away for some man, or that her feelings towards him were a sign of mental instability. If they'd taken the time to establish that, rather than have them being two beautiful people drawn to each other because they're beautiful, then the failure of the relationship could indeed have driven her over the edge. But as it was, he hardly seemed to mean more to her than Dario had.

r564 I feel it's Jon was the breaking point. Adding to that she had a nervous breakdown after the deaths of Jorah and Missendei and refused to eat and that the people she will rule are at best unimpressed with her, so it's coming for a head because she's on the verge of achieving her goal. The enormity of winning the Iron Throne and ruling it for a lifetime and the realization of how difficult, boring and isolating that will be with zero supporters is bad enough but the reality of it is a day away. So realising Jon was supporting her pretty much because previously vowed to is the final straw, in a way.

I don't hold out hopes that GRRM will finish the series, I do hold out hopes that he'll finish The Winds of Winter and we'll get through the Battle of Winterfell. I could live with that. I don't need to see Dany go mad and burn up Kings Landing even if it's well done--and I think Martin could do it well and make it work.

A lot of things in the books are missing from the show: Arianell and the Dorne story line; the Aegon storyline--and that's clearly going somewhere; the direwolf/warging stuff that makes not just Bran, but also Arya and Jon magical beings. Book Arya is on her way to being superassassin, not just because she's an acolyte of the Faceless men, but because even there, she's secretly warging and, thus, ahead of the game. Sansa's really the only Stark who's just living by her wits. And, of course, book Sansa is nowhere near Ramsay Bolton.

I think, in the books, Cersei's remaining kids will die and she will blow up the Sept. I suspect, though, that that's what's going to get her kicked off the throne with Aegon being put in place. And, if that's the case, it would make more sense for Danaerys to get pissed off over the usurper and show Westeros who the real Targaryen is with her dragon blitzkreig.

Everyone talking about "How did Jamie survive the Euron fight?"

May I remind you that Arya was stabbed about 4 times by the Waif and thrown into a dirty river and she was still walking. Jamie surviving the Euron fight didn't bother me.

I do agree that pacing has been an issue with the shorter seasons and thinking "We can do this in 13 episodes" was a big ass mistake.

“And once there are no more books to adapt, most of the detailed discourse and sophisticated depiction of brinkmanship, backstabbing and governance vanish. The gradual shift from William Shakespeare to George Romero feels irreversible, like the kind of TV that comes more naturally to the makers of this show.

Basically, this isn’t television freighted with complex psyches or ideas. “What’s it about?” “Power!” And yet it’s about power the way Italian cooking is about tomatoes.”

I think HBO took a chance on a work in progress because GRRM's huge following to justified the financial risk. They made a lot of money, and so it was worth it, but pissed off the book fans and the HBO fans royally. The prequels will tank for that reason. HBO, GRRM, and D&D have lost all creative credibility from both critics and fans going forward.

Kit Harrington will fare worst of all. He actually told the fans to go fuck themselves if they didn't like the final season. We don't, so fuck you, Harrington. Book fans are the sort that don't forget.

and you suck as an actor, so I hope you got a good residual deal, though I don't think anyone will be watching in future years.

Anyone sign the petition to redo the entire season with more competent writers? Ouch.

r569/570, I'm sure Kit is reading your tantrum and is suitably impressed, as we all are.

R126 it would be weird if she were actually dead, because it would mean that her "ghost" washed up to appear in the final episode. But I wouldn't put it past the show to create a ghost that concerned itself with cleanliness...

thanks, Rose! Did he also act out remorseful when he fucked the Russian whore during your engagement?

Thru all the seasons they've introduced us to situations that seem incredibly complex and layered and promised to explain in depth later on. So much of that has turned out to have been wasted intrigue. And Bran's mystery better be explained or I'll be pissed.

I haven't read the books, so I wish they had taken 5 minutes and explained just what the fuck the whole Night King/Army of the Dead was all about. The could have had the Red Witch do it, Bran do it, I don't care who did it, just tell me why they made me care about it all those seasons.

There's nothing wrong with this season that about 60 minutes of added dialogue inserted here and there wouldn't fix.

Have spoilers leaked? I've seen posts here and elsewhere that states things like Dany is--- Jon --- etc... they don't say if it's spoiler or theory. I don't want to be spoiled so I'm wondering if I should stop reading anything GoT.

FYI, they apparently have and people have been leaking in the comment sections all over the place, especially the Dailymail. Even here some of the 'speculation' is suspect. I don't understand why this show could never contain spoilers when other shows like Breaking Bad was able to.

R578, the spoilers seem to be leaked by people who do the CGI.

r569/ r570/ etc., your tantrum level has now reached the level of hysteria.

I think it's best for you to have a time out. Repeat to yourself, "It's only a TV show..."

R579, that's horrible. Shouldn't they have signed NDAs?

I am really annoyed by the Night King thing. GRRM himself has said he hates evil characters whose only identity is being evil. So this could not have been his intention for the white walkers, just to be an evil to be vanquished wirhout any motivation or complexity. Even if the theory about the NK being the Medieval onset of the amoral ice age, you don’t kill a cold front by stabbing it with a daggwr.

Thanks Rose, R580, but all I see happening here is someone defending a shitty actor and then accusing me of being 'in love' with his stupid ass. That might be how you operate, but I don't live in your fantasy world.

He said it and will have to live with it. That's reality.

Bitch, please, the sane fans don't blame the actors for this debacle! They didn't write this shit!

As for the Night's King, they should have used Bran to flesh him out, since the Walkers can't speak for themselves. Is he really just the Frankenstein's monster created by the CotF, or an embodiment of Winter? Is he one of the Old Gods? Anyway, they haven't used Bran's powers for shit, and they've hardly even gotten any exposition out of him. They just aren't bothering.

No one blamed Harrington for this shitshow, R584, but you are being bitchy about what he said or didn't say about the fans.

Sane fans should understand that they are being disrespected. Harrington just got in his two cents and was stupid about it. Sure, defend your performance and the artistic effort it took to create this, but don't shit on the fans by telling them they can 'go fuck themselves' if they criticize the finale.

I don't think they gave the NK's backstory the time it deserved, so I figure they must be saving it for the prequels to tease watchers into taking the bait.

Harrington never said anything remotely like fans could go fuck themselves. What he said was there some might like it and for those who didn't there was nothing that could be done about it. But you've decided your queenliness has been personally disrespected and want to deep spouting digs at him like he owes you an apology.

You really are silly, R586. I have no horses in this race. He said what he said. It's not a personal attack to quote it or make others aware of it. It's all over the internet, in fact. He really does need better advice. Here's what he said:

I am enjoying watching this extended meltdown! LOL

One more, just for fun.

"Sane fans should understand that they are being disrespected."

Speaking as one obsessive fan to another: GET A FUCKING LIFE!

You've repeated the same stupid comment ten or twenty times now, without providing a direct quote. Forget it, drop it, shut up about it. We all know he's an idiot, but we forgive him because he made up for it by showing us his beautiful ass.

He was attacking professional critics "who spend a half hour of work" knocking hundreds of people's thousands of hours of work. Not fans. You are the idiot.

Now the truth comes out, R590. Yeah, you're sane

No ass is worth that kind of bullshit, but you can have him if you can get him. Just wait at the bar....

FANDOM TZIMMIS 2!!

Sure he was, R591, whatever.

The critics I've been reading are all fans of the show, from publications to Twitter, to Youtubers, and they all wanted to like it. Too bad, so sad.

Sorry your feewings got hurt by his comment.

"Now if people feel let down by it, I don't give a fuck," he concluded.

Nor do I give a fuck about him, or your baby babble and ass obsession.

I WILL NOT BE IGNORED!!! MY DEMANDS AS A FAN MUST BE MET!!!

It's not Kit Harington's place to give a fuck. He is an actor. His job is just to show up on set and say the lines they wrote for him.

Save your anger for David and Dan, people who actually decide what happens in the show.

Kit was likable on SNL but he does not seem like the sharpest blade in the block.

The actors who had the most elaborate battles in the war against the dead gave it their all. I was exhausted just watching it. Jon, Jorah, Arya, Benderic, Tormund. Just swinging those fake swords around for hours would give you a rotator cuff tear. And everyone in last Sunday’s episode who were trying to avoid the dragon fire and falling debris did a great job too. How many hours did they have to do that over and ever again. I don’t fault the actors. They played what was written. The CGI team did amazing things with those effects. Costumers, make-up, set designers, set builders. All worked their asses off. &D are the ones who fucked over the fans. Lazy writers who had no real clue how to end it and went for the easy way out. Which was to burn it to the ground.