Chips Channon's Diaries

Had an affair with playwright Terence Rattigan

I am awaiting more entries with breathless anticipation, OP. Thanks for starting this thread!

R2 - Most welcome. I'm marking pages as I go along. And, thank you, R1 - anyone also familiar with the era and some of Channon's priceless bon mots, please feel free to chime in!

Did he have an affair with Noel Coward, Louis Mountbatten, or The Prince of Wales?

[quote] Did he have an affair with Noel Coward, Louis Mountbatten, or The Prince of Wales?

He had an affair with the Duke of Kent (Mountbatten's cousin and the Prince of Wales' brother). Kent and Channon were also neighbours in Belgrave Square. Marina Kent knew of the affair and she didn't blink an eye. She became a close friend of Channon.

[QUOTE] Marina Kent knew of the affair and she didn't blink an eye.

Greek princesses were good in that respect. They came from a shaky throne and knew where their bread was buttered when they made good marriages.

OP here - I'm up to where Channon and his wife decide to buy 5 Belgrave Square:

23 March

"We have decided to buy 5 Belgrave Square. It is not too grand and is dirt cheap compared with all the other houses we have seen. It has a distinguished air and we will make it gay and comfortable. We hope to be living there by 1 September. I think it us just possible. It will be fun arranging it . . ."

And here is an early glimpse of Wallis:

5 April

"A full, exhausting day. We had a luncheon here, and the plot was to do a 'politesse' to Mrs Simpson. She is a jolly, plain, intelligent, quiet, unpretentious and unprepossessing little woman, but as I wrote to Paul [Prince Paul] of Yugoslavia today, she already has the air of a personage who walks into a room almost expecting to be curtsied to . . . she has complete power over the Prince of Wales, who is trying to launch her socially . . ."

Not so unpretentious, then [sic].

This is 1934, by the way.

It is quite clear that Chips' definition of an "exhausting day" differs from that of the rest of us. Hell, what a life! His entire adulthood was spent like this!

Prince George, Duke of Kent, was a real hottie. He and Princess Marina looked like the Hollywood Central Casting versions of George VI and Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon.

When I read first-hand accounts like Chip Cannon's, it seems clear to me that Wallis Simpson DID want to be Queen, however it might have been spun later.

R10 - Wallis, by her account in "The Heart Has Its Reasons" listened on the wireless to the coronation of George VI and her hated rival, Elizabeth, Duchess of York, and explicitly said that waves of images of what could have been and SHOULD have been broke over her as she listened. She really did think she could pull it off.

She made the same mistake Meghan Markle has three generations later: she pissed off the women of the family thinking that that one man was all she needed. However, Queen Mary and the much-loved Duchess of York were formidable adversaries. Wallis underestimated both and paid the price for doing so. That one man wasn't enough to get her over the finish line - in fact, he used to her to abandon the game altogether. She had to be contetn with a mere Your Grace and a life of luxurious idleness nursing along the little boy she married.

That's what she and Thelma Furness (Edward's last mistress before he took up with Wallis) called him in the inner circle, "The Little Man".

^*he used her

and

had to be content

Always mix him up with Captain "Fruity" Metcalfe.

Metcalife was a member of the British Fascist Blackshirts. His devotion to the Prince of Wales and then as he became the Duke of Windsor was perhaps no accident. Eventally, when WWII finally broke out, he did serve, apparently honourably, in the RAF.

Thank you for starting this thread, OP! Thank you!

R11, “She made the same mistake Meghan Markle has three generations later: she pissed off the women of the family thinking that that one man was all she needed. However, Queen Mary and the much-loved Duchess of York were formidable adversaries. Wallis underestimated both and paid the price for doing so. That one man wasn't enough to get her over the finish line - in fact, he used to her to abandon the game altogether.“

Exactly. When joining a family, a woman must court the women of the family. Must.

R15 - I am hoping people have patience as I go through the book for more quotes.

You know what Wallis said about the BRF after she was booted out - that it was a split-level matriarchy run by Queen Mary and the former Duchess of York. She wasn't far off. Bertie, the new King. was as emotionally dependent as his older brother, but he'd picked a more suitable woman to be dependent upon, and one who was also devoted to the monarchy as an institution.

For the rest of their lives, the Windsors referred to Queen Elizabeth as "that fat Scotch cook".

Someone also allegedly once brought Wallis a gift of fragrant powder (women used to use such things in those days), but it was called "Duchess of York". Wallis accepted it with thanks and added, "And you know where I'll put it."

I forget where I read this quote but someone said that the diaries of Chips Channon made London in the ‘20’s and early ‘30’s “seem to be one long cocktail party in a blue-enameled room”. Quite evocative of the upper class in that period I thought.

R17 - Yes - although Channon wasn't completely detached from reality - as the economics of the Depression set in, he famously called the decade "the thin-faced thirties".

I believe in the 1940s, it must have been shortly after the war ended, he shrewdly pegged Prince Philip of Greece as Elizabeth's intended husband. He reported seeing Philip at a party, and said, "He is incredibly handsome. He is going to be our Prince Consort."

I wonder if Channon was fucking the very bi Prince Paul, since they seemed to be chummy via letter. Princess Paul (Olga, Marina’s prettier sister) likewise would have turned a blind eye to this. After all, she came from the same shaky Greek throne and married a dynast from a reigning House and I think the Kargorovics family had money.

R19 - The thing is, Channon and his wife were very happily married, perhaps because they understood each other. And, Channon names his much-longed for son Paul.

The upper-crust was so civilized back then. They knew that a bit of nookie on the side really meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. Lots of successful long-term partnerships where both partners did as they pleased sexually speaking but were still wonderful companions to each other. I'm a bit envious.

I also wonder, coming out of that milieu, how Diana acquired such middle-class ideas about marriage. No wonder the Royal Family was astonished by her hysterics over something as ordinary (to them) as the Prince of Wales having a mistress.

With two divorces under her belt, not to mention a serious lack of pedigree, I don't think Wallis could have made true allies of Queen Mary and the Duchess of York, in the sense of convincing them to support David's wish to marry her and make her Queen. If she and David hadn't been so obnoxious and so infatuated by fascism, and IF she'd kissed up to the ladies in the family, they might have agreed to a morganatic marriage, particularly since Wallis couldn't have children. That would have kept the burden of kingship off of Bertie's shoulders, which the Duchess of York would have liked, and it would have satisfied Queen Mary's snobbery. Also, it meant that the Duchess' daughter, Princess Elizabeth, wouldn't lose her succession rights. She would simply have had them 20 years later, which might have satisfied both her and Philip, as it would have given him time to have a naval career and her time to be a real mother to her children.

Yes, all things considered, she SHOULD have kissed up, shouldn't she?

I'd love to hear any more nuggets about Wallis in the diaries, OP!

Chips’s son Paul kept things in the family by marrying, like Chips, a Guinness. But his wife was the first wife of his cousin Jonathan. Who was the son of Diana Mitford, the Hitler loving Mitford sister, whose younger sister Debo became the Duchess of Devonshire, whose sister in law was JFK’s sister Kick.

And so it goes on - the tangled web of the upper classes.

I wish the Diary Reader (OP) would sign posts and those who know a lot and chime in with other info also choose a name/moniker to consistently indicate who is saying what in this thread. I have read a few books and articles and watched some documentaries about those wacky Mitford sisters, but I don't know much about Olde Timey Royals and their Rich Bastard Friends, so I like this thread! Please do go on.

R24, I agree. And the Mitford Sisters are another rabbit hole. Fascinating.

Ok R24, R23 here - aka has Posh Family Tree Obsessive.

When I have a bit more time I’ll describe the link from JFK back to the Mitfords and Chips Channon via Jackie O, Aristotle Onassis, his wife Athina Livanos, her husband the eventual Duke of Marlborough and then...my head hurts, but there’s a Princess of Wales connection as well as to Michael Canfield rumoured son of Prince George Duke of Kent rumoured lover of...Chips Channon!

Anyway I don’t profess some great knowledge of these connections but they can be entertaining to follow over a bottle of wine or a joint or two with an ipad, google and a curious mind.

^^^ and I forgot to sign with my new moniker

OP here - as I'm reading, it turns out that Emerald Cunard also flirterd with fascism, and Channon describes going to a speaking engagement by Mussolini in Perugia in 1926, whom Channon describes as incredibly charismatic - in the 20/20 vision of hindsight, we think of Il Duce as comical, but Channon didn't find him so - perhaps because it was more than 15 years in the future that Mussolini would be overshadowed by Hitler.

By 1934-35, Channon notes that there is "much gossip about the Prince of Wales' alleged Nazi leaning". Channon says that he is alleged to have been influenced by Wallis and Emerald Cunard, who Channon asserts is somewhat enamoured of Von Ribbentrop. This opens a rift in the society world, as the Duff Coopers, e.g.., are fanatically pro-French and anti-German.

What is fascinating about the diaries is that one moment Channon is describing an early encounter with Mussolini, and fascist leanings at the top of the social pyramid, including the next King, and the next, describing his meeting with Monsieur Boudin from Paris, who worked for the firm of Jansen, and was considered the most fashionable and expensive decorator of the day, about designs for Belgrave Square, which Channon is determined shall stupefy.

But he has considerable insight into his own persona: "Sometimes I think I have an unusual character: able but trivial."

In Perugia, by the way, Channon was travelling with George Gage, who Channon had described earlier in the twenties as "desperately fond of" the young Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, but who characterised Gage as "far too Tudor and heavy and squirearchical for someone sp rare and patrician as Elizabeth" - and, of course, she went on to marry Prince Albert and become Duchess of York.

It is a truly remarkable accounting of an era.

"The upper-crust was so civilized back then."

Yeah, other than being Nazis and huge assholes.....

The recently widowed Queen Mary spent an afternoon at his house in Belgravia. She insisted on a tour including the nursery where his three year old son, Paul pulled on her nose. She laughed.

R29 you’re guilty of making sweeping statements as much as you suggest that R21 is. S/he was referring to their sexual mores, which were well known, then as now. You’ve made a judgement about their politics (“Nazis”) and personalities (“huge assholes”). Really, R29? Or perhaps you’re referring to their physiognomy - I doubt that Channon went into that level of detail.

Maybe hold off on your learned opinions until you’ve done some learning!

r31, why don't you learn something? I was calling out people for assuming everyone back then was so classy and perfect. They weren't. Btw, I didn't say ALL of them were Nazis or assholes, but many were. Not everyone had the same "sexual mores" either - but there you go, making sweeping generalizations!

R32 I’d love to engage but you are making no sense. And you did exactly that which you said that you didn’t - made sweeping generalisations. Try again.

r33, you did exactly that which you said that you didn’t - made sweeping generalizations. Try again. Get a little smarter.

I’m a new poster to the thread—

Thanks so much for starting the thread OP. I said on the BRF I was probably going to have to break down and get the diaries, and now I’m sure by the time we reach the thread’s end I’ll have them. I especially like his observations on Wallis that you’ve been sharing.

I think it’s important to note that a lot of the British aristocracy at the time WERE interested in fascism. Prior to WWII, especially when Hitler first started to gain power, most people were curious about his ideas. He seemed to have real answers to chronic problems in Germany like unemployment, etc. and appeared excellent at implementing solutions. Politically-minded people in the 30s were paying attention to him and what he was doing— even if they didn’t agree with it. I imagine it must have been similar to the way people are keeping an eye on Trump.

Interesting commentary from a book review written on publication:

Reviewing the published diaries in The Observer in November 1967, Malcolm Muggeridge wrote, "Grovellingly sycophantic and snobbish as only a well-heeled American nesting among the English upper classes can be, with a commonness that positively hurts at times. And yet – how sharp an eye! What neat malice! How, in their own fashion, well written and truthful and honest they are! … What a relief to turn to him after Sir Winston's windy rhetoric, and all those leaden narratives by field-marshals, air-marshals and admirals!"[23]

[quote] I wonder if Channon was fucking the very bi Prince Paul, since they seemed to be chummy via letter. Princess Paul (Olga, Marina’s prettier sister) likewise would have turned a blind eye to this. After all, she came from the same shaky Greek throne and married a dynast from a reigning House and I think the Kargorovics family had money.

Channon and Prince Paul were on and off lovers. Until Paul's disgrace and banishment to Africa during the Second World War, he was well-liked and popular with everyone who knew him. He was great friends with Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon well before she was Duchess of York, but their mutual affection was only platonic. Both Princess Olga and Princess Marina loathed Elizabeth, but Paul remained a loyal friend to her. Unlike most royalty, Prince Paul allowed his non-royal friends to address him as "Paul" and not the stuffier "Sir" as required by protocol.

By the standards of the day, Prince Paul was extremely wealthy, even richer than Chips Channon or most British royals, but the money did not come from his Serbian family. It came from his mother's family who were high ranking Russian nobility. They were so rich that even losing a large chunk of their wealth during the Russian revolution, there was still plenty invested outside of Russia.

Actress Catherine Oxenberg is Prince Paul's granddaughter.

R37 - I hadn't come to anything suggesting that Olga and Marina loathed Elizabeth - but I have come across a snooty comment by Marina calling Elizabeth "that common little Scottish girl" whilst Elizabeth was stil "only" Duchess of York. Which just goes to the the refined levels of snobbery in the azure tiers of those circles, as Elizabeth's ancestry was that of an established arisotcrate, if not royal. Marina after all, was a "blood princess" (and cf. now the discussions on the British threads about the essential difference between the York daughters and the arrivistes, Meghan and Kate). However, Marina also admitted that by the time she entered the family, Elizabeth had been Duchess of York for more than a decade, and that far from behing helpful to Marina in showing how the job should be done, "[he]r serene professionalism set a nearly impossible standard". So Marina's resentment had some roots in a personal annoynace.

The only people who mattered, i.e., Berti's parents, King George V and Qiueen Mary, adored Elizabeth.

However, when it became clear that Edward was going to abdicate, and that the common little Scottis gilr was about to become Queen Elizabeth, that all disappeared mysteriously, and as the rest of the royal family and most of the old landed aristocracy, great families like the Cecils et al., lined up behind the monarchy, people like Marina quickly moved to the side on which their social bread was now buttered.

^*common little Scottish girl was about to become Queen Elizabeth

R36 - Thanks for the Muggeridge quotes. Although he does seem to forget that Channon was a naturalised British citizen, stood for Parliamennt and served as an MP, and was married to a well-born Englishwoman. So, calling Channon an "a well-heeled American nesting among . . ." is somewhat disingenuous and is uncharitable to Channon's love for and commitment to his adopted country.

I think Channon's diaries really exemplify how weird the late 30s must have been. Everyone knew, especially as they got closer to 1939, that war was brewing once again, yet everyone tried to pretend it wasn't happening, especially if they had the money to distract themselves with parties, decorating, etc. In The Glass Menagerie, which is set a few months before Germany invaded Poland, the lead character says "the whole world was waiting for bombardments," even while the hoi polloi in America were distracting themselves with liquor and swing music. Interesting stuff.

R26, don’t forget the Michael Canfield connection to Lee Bouvier/Radziwill!

OP: I can help you out.

First of all: it's important to recognise that Channon's diaries were heavily bowderised by their editor Robert Rhodes James, who was a pompous shit, and perpetrated a string of distortions in other books regarding gay figures.Another volume of the diaries turned up in car boot sale, and there was talk of a revised edition, but things have gone quiet. One can only presume the family are 'thingy' when it comes the gay thing. And Chips was very very gay. I know of two other aristocratic families that are sitting on gay ancestral papers (one from the 1890s, and the other from 1930s-50s), and which have refused approaches. It's a sad situation.

Channon's last boy was the landscape designer Peter Coates, aka 'Petticoats'.

One of the nicest things in the book is his description of visiting Boughton, one of the homes of the Duke of Buccleuch, but which was just used a dower house, and still is. Its treasures stunned even Chips.

Princess Marina interview. Note her perfect manners -- a lady always pays more attention to her flowers than a common grubby reporter, and treats him with weary abruptness. Perfect!

R43 - Thanks for your comments, it's marvellous to have the whole picture filled out. The Duke of Buccleuch (for Yanks out there, the name is pronounced Buck-lew) was the father of Lady Alice B.. who ended up marrying the middle son of George and Mary, Henry, and became Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. They were a very quiet pair, and Alice was much liked by the BRF. and she lived to be 102. Her beautiful full name was Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott.

I still think Olga was prettier, even though Marina got all the accolades.

"And Chips was very very gay. I know of two other aristocratic families that are sitting on gay ancestral papers (one from the 1890s, and the other from 1930s-50s), and which have refused approaches."

Details, please!

You have to admit she had wit.

OP here - There is so much in these diaries that it is hard to pick out amusing nuggets. Whatever her flirtation with fascism, Channon was very fond of Emerald Cunard, and describes going to a luncheon in her honour to which Emerald was nearly an hour late. But she was so "desperately amusing" everyone forgave her, and Channon goes on to say of her:

"How good her digestion, how efficient her liver, how active her bowels, must be to make possible such a torrent of wit."

I really think this one of the pearls of the entire thing - at least so far.

R43, are you a researcher? Which families won't let people look into their gay ancestors?

It's a shame there's not more books on gay society stuff. This recent book on the rentboy at the centre of the Cleveland St Scandal of the 1890s is a good read. (The pic on the cover isn't him.)

Twitter feed of another gay scandal book supposedly out soon:

r51, I read that book and loved it. I emailed the author to talk to him about it and he was very nice.

All these royal and aristocratic people are nothing but a bunch of self-important lay-abouts extolling the virtues of laying about and exemplary social position by birth. They're very tiresome. By far and for centuries of comparison, the most impressive of them all would be Princess Alice, Prince Philip's mother. If you know her story, then you also know why that is.

In keeping with the form, however, I'll add that I know I read somewhere that Chips Channon had an affair with Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother.

[quote]In keeping with the form, however, I'll add that I know I read somewhere that Chips Channon had an affair with Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother.

Thanks for the laff, R54. Nurse will be round soon.

^Oh look - the Abominable Cunt rears is green slimy stenched lips to have a try at humor

I'm sorry, R55. Have a nice day.

R55 - If the Queen Mother was going to have an affair with any of the queens who constantly surrounded her, it would have been Noel Coward. The two were devoted to each other.

R54 - You know, one can't dine out every night on steak tartare or Lobster Thermidor.

Occasionally one only wants to stop at a chips shop on the way home and sit in front of the telly with a tray and vinegary fingers and watch EastEnders.

I love music, but I don't want to hear Beethoven's Ninth every evening.

Don't be so tiresomely moralistic. The universe isn't now, never was, and never will be, "fair".

That doesn't make Channon's gossip any less enjoyable.

I like the cut of Princess Marina's jib!

OP here - Well, I am up to Abdication year, which looks to be the juiciest part of the diaries. There is a introduction stating that although the diaries were first published 30 years after the events, people involved were still alive and for this reason some cuts were required. Chipa was friends with both sides of the Abdication - an admirer of Queen Mary, charmed by the Duchess of York, but very partisan toward Wallis, whom he both liked and admired. So he found himself having to tread delicately.

I found Chips' partisanship of Wallis strange, as he describes her as the soul of dignity, tact, discretion, warmth and friendliness. This goes counter to other accounts of Wallis. Absent from Chips' accounts are well-known anecdotes of Wallis's tactlessness e.g., re the Yorks, such as visiting them one afternoon at Royal Lodge with Prince Edward and talking blithely about cutting down large old trees to improve the views (it just happened to be her hosts' home), acting as formal hostess at dinners at Fort Belvedere as if she were already his wife, and being overheard making fun of the Duchess of York's manner in a drawing room as the Duchess approached, and, of course, overheard.

Chips makes it clear in his own intro to the Abdication section that in the early stages, Wallis had real hopes of becoming Queen, not least because Prince, and then King Edward allowed her to go on thinking he could pull it off; it was only in the autumn of 1936 as the issues became clear and government resistance and public opinion became clear, that, as Chips' put it, Wallis began to realise the gravity of the situation. The story is she kept offering to "withdraw" (whatver that means) but the King wouldn't have it.

The section actually opens with the death of George V in January 1936, and Chips' description of the rituals of the funeral, lying in state, and the Accession Proclamation is wonderful. He describes the widowed Queen Mary as seeming "magnificent" - calm, composed, dignified.

More as I get through it . . .

Great details, R61. From what I've read, Wallis could be ferociously charming, but she seemed to use her charm only on men, to her downfall. Making enemies of Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth was a huge mistake that cost her dearly in the long-run.

I wonder what strategy she used to charm Chips. Gay men are usually a little more astute about women like Wallis.

I think The Princess Royal (Mary) kept up some sort of relationship with Wallis after the Abdication, does Channon mention her?

R63 - If Wallis was known for anything, it was for being good with men. And she'd have seen in Chips a kindred spirit of sorts - shrewd but not particularly deep, who valued what Wallis valued and was after: luxury, social status, the money to back up good taste, and a certain arty edge. She and Edward were the nightclub set; Albert and Elizabeth were the wholesome traditional quietly grand set.

Chipa was also no threat to her. It was the women of the monarchy that she miscalculated so badly with - she overestimated how much power her relationship with the future King gave her. Only when abdication was on the table as the only way Edward could marry her, did she realise what she'd done.

Speaking of "quietly grand", someone who visited Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon's family home once commented that, "The Strathmores were so grand you hardly realised just how grand they were."

A neat way of illustrating the difference between the Meghan Markles and Wallis SImpsons, and women raised as Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was.

I wonder if anyone is still raised like Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was, or if that sort of childhood ended after World War II.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R67 - What you've described is proof of that old axiom about wealth being wasted on the rich.

The thing about the Chips Channons and Emerald Cunards and Maggie Grevilles and Cazelets, is that they knew how to enjoy what they had. The modern era brought with it a sort of cheap thrills atmosphere that wasn't a patch on the elegant circles and era Olivia's granddad knew.

Maybe Chip and Wallis bonded over being Americans in English High Places.

Except that Chips became a naturalised British citizen and actually served as an MP in Parliament.

Wallis, again like Meghan, hadn't the slightest interest in Britain.

R70---Chips assimilated and was more accepted in british society, perhaps, but having grown up in the US may have been some sort of connection between him and Wallis. Maybe they looked at each other and said, "Who'da thunk we'd end up here? Cheers, Darling!"

[quote]may have been some sort of connection between him and Wallis

Of course Chips and Wallis bonded! They were both American arrivistes with their eyes on the prize. He was a gay man who'd snared one of England's greatest heiresses, and she was his feminine equivalent. They both looked down on Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, but they both severely misjudged her. Behind the demure exterior was, as Cecil Beaton noted, an interior of cold hard steel. She was the polar opposite of her fluffy public image. She was someone extremely conscious of her status from childhood, and possessed a cynical humour, as gay friends who used to lunch with her told me. (They were there when Princess Di was staying with her at Clarence House before her marriage and said Di stuck her head round the corner of the room to say she was going out, and QM just replied to her "Shopping again dear?" in the most sardonic voice. No wonder Di was spooked by her: she had reason to be.)

Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was old landed aristocracy and old money. Wallis may have looked down on her but that's because she was too stupid to know better and was basking in the reflected glow of snagging a Major Fuck. Channon would have been far too well versed in English society to look down on Bowes-Lyon, daughter of the 9th Earl of Strathmore and Cleghorn and heir to a great castle in Scotland (Glamis Castle, yes, that Glamis Castle), a large estate in the English countryside (St. Paul's Walden Bury), and a townhouse in London (Bruton Street).

So Channon would have known better. It was Wallis's lesser sensibilities that prevented her from knowing with whom she was dealing and who also had the other great landed families behind her. The set Wallis and Channon ran with, and that Prince Edward preferred, were what were called "cafe society'.

The weight of the monarchy and the families who mattered came down against Wallis.

And, yes, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was the original iron hand in the velvet glove. There was a very good reason Queen Mary, after visiting the girl at Glamis, left convinced that she was the ony girl who could make Mary's son Bertie happy. After that visit, Mary arranged to have her son's equerry, one braw Jamie Stuart, 1st Vicount Findhorn, with whom Elizabeth was said to be enamoured, sent out of the country to Canada, where he eventually married Lady Rachel Cavendish. It sounds deliciously feudal, doesn't it? It was a year after that that Elizabeth finally caved in and accepted Prince Albert's third proposal.

The idea of Wallis looking down on that girl shows you how misguided she was.

And, yes, I think the kind of upbringing Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon had has vanished even amongst the same tier of people.

[quote]There was a very good reason Queen Mary, after visiting the girl at Glamis, left convinced that she was the ony girl who could make Mary's son Bertie happy.

Did she leave with any of the Strathmore family silver, furnishings, and decor, as well?

[quote]Did she leave with any of the Strathmore family silver, furnishings, and decor, as well?

An outrageous slander.

After the royal Daimler had departed, a professional removal van undertook the task.

^^*That is, Strathmore and Kinghorne. It was getting late. R73

R74 - LOL. That said, the Strathmores weren't the type of people who flaunted wealth in plain sight. There home was always described as "cosy" and the warmth and informality of their family life, so lacking in Bertie's home, was one of the things that attracted Prince Albert.

In which we see another startling parallel to the William/Harry story, only skipping two generations, for the Middleton home life was one of the things that attracted William. His younger brother, like his great-great Uncle Edward (who was always called David at home), went for the cafe society shopworn girl.

Amazing, innit?

R74 - The valuable that Queen Mary really left with was the Earl's youngest daughter. Because the significance of Queen Mary "dropping in" (which she did, unannounced, in company with her Lady in Waiting, Lady Cynthia Asquith, who had known Elizabeth from childhood) would not remotely have been lost on Elizabeth, who was alone at Glamis at the time and who then had to act as hostess, welcoming the Queen and acting as hostess, giving the Queen a tour of the castle and then serving tea. No one would have been under any illusion: the girl was being inspected. After that, Elizabeth with her somewhat medieval views would have figured she might as well accept her destiny, especially after Jamie Stuart suddenly disappeared to Canada after the visit.

Queen Mary was on record as stating that she refused to meddle in her children's private lives (a precept that her granddaughter, Queen Elizabeth II, carried through, perhaps too much so). This was the only time Queen Mary broke that rule; her interference this once got Prince Albert the wife he desperately wanted, and, in the longer term, the nation a King and Queen they were much better served with through WWII.

Which is why these threads are so interesting beyond mere gossip.

I'm the OP, by the way.

"Sometimes I think I have an unusual character – able but trivial; I have flair, intuition, great good taste but only second rate ambition: I am far too susceptible to flattery; I hate and am uninterested in all the things most men like such as sports, business, statistics, debates, speeches, war, and the weather; but I am riveted by lust, furniture, glamour and society and jewels." - Chips Channon , 1935.

R78 - OP here - yes, that's the full quote!

And second the canonisation suggestion heartily!

The motto for every bottom should be: "I hate and am uninterested in all the things most men like such as sports, business, statistics, debates, speeches, war, and the weather; but I am riveted by lust, furniture, glamour and society and jewels."

R78 /OP. R78 here. I LOVE this thread, thank you so much .

Oops! R78 here again meant to address the last reply to R79 of course...

R81 - OP here - pleasure. Given Chips', er, gossip creds, tastes, and inclinations, I'm amazed it took so long for him to get a thread . . .

[quote] That said, the Strathmores weren't the type of people who flaunted wealth in plain sight.

They also weren't the type of people who were impressed or intimidated by royalty. They were very respectful towards them, but had a take them or leave them attitude when it came to associating with the royal family. After the York marriage, his new parents-in-law, and Elizabeth's brothers and sisters addressed the Duke as "Bertie". After the Abdication, they were less than pleased to receive formal letters from courtiers instructing them that they must at all times address George VI as "Your Majesty" or "Sir", and in public, Elizabeth as "Your Majesty" or "Ma'am", but in private her own family could still call her Elizabeth.

I’ve looked for the quote but can’t find it, but I do recall that I read it in Penelope Mortimer’s ascerbic biography of the Queen Mother - Lady Strathmore in a letter to a relative before her daughter married the Duke of York:

“Some people, my dear, need to be fed royalty the way that a seal needs to be fed fish”.

He began a lifelong friendship with Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, whom in his diaries he called "the person I have loved most"

R85 OP here (watching local council elections) and I also remember the quote. The Strathmores definitely didn't feel they needed any enhancements to their social position.

Wallis looked down her nose at Queen Elizabeth simply because she (Elizabeth) was frumpy; a little overweight and homely and middle class in her dress. It had nothing to do with social status, obviously Elizabeth would trump Wallis in that regard. Wallis was shallow and superficial, appearances were everything and Bowes- Lyon was hardly chic or fashionable. Say what you want about Wallis, but she knew how to dress and wore the most beautiful clothes.

pfft, you old queens and your obsession with class is tiresome. I guess when you're old and fat and no one wants to fuck you you're snobbery is the only card you have left to play.

R89 If you find other peoples’ interest in history so tiresome, why did you navigate to this post instead of ignoring and simply moving on to something that is more to your interest?

R50 - It's probably the same troll who accuses people on the BRF threads who characterise Meghan Markle as Wallis 2.0, but without the elegance or wit, of being fat old fraus angry because the dim, balding, gap-toothed, and lately often badly groomed Harry won't ever fuck them.

Block him, it cleans up the thread nicely.

R90 - It's probably the same troll who accuses anyone on the BRF threads who characterises Meghan Markle of being Wallis 2.0, but without the elegance and wit, as just being fat old fraus upset because the dim, balding, gap-toothed, twaddle-tooting, and lately badly groomed Harry will never fuck them.

Block him, it works wonders.

Apologies for the double post - the first one did not show up on my home computer.

R91 R92

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Like a lot of middle class Americans she thinks its "upper class" to berate the staff at home, in restaurants, in shops. In fact, it's classless. I hate when people do that. Meghan sounds awful.

Wallis could trace her family back centuries on both sides. Even though her wealthy uncle cut her out of his will she still managed to receive around $50k, and this was the 30s!

Wallis was illegitimate with two living ex husbands. In the thirties, she was no catch for a King.

What was the joke about Edward and Wallis? Something like “He went from Admiral of the Fleet, to third mate on an American tramp”.

Wallis had an affair with the gay Jimmy Donahue. After she grew tired of him, she said, "To think I gave up a king for a queen."

My favourite quote re Wallis and Edward remains the wag who labelled them, "King Edward the Eighth and Mrs Simpson the seven-eighths".

OP here - I just finished the Abdication section of the diaries, which is chock-full of fascinating observations, but what really stands out is Channon's completely blindered view of Wallis Simpson. There is not a single mention of the fact that she "lifted" Edward from Thelma Furness whilst Furness was out of town ("Darling", Furness said to Wallis before she left, "do take care of the LIttle Man while I'm gone, he will be so lonely," and Furness returned to find that Wallis had taken very good care of him, indeed), of Wallis's tactlessness, her voracious appetite for social climbing (with which Channon probably sympathised), or her failure to grasp early on that Queen Wallis was not going to fly in Britain or the Dominions and that the only people who supported such a notion were high society - not the government and not the populace.

Out of touch doesn't begin to describe it.

Channon might have been blinded by the fact that he would have LOVED it if Wallis became queen. Think was a social coup that would have been for him, to be the newly crowned Queen's BFF.

Actually, Winston Churchill backed the Duke until the end and was willing to form a King's Party to keep him on the throne. Edward left of his own accord.

Winston was crazy conservative, R103. Reactionary really. He was like a White Russian. They are often right, though.

No, conservatives aren't often right

They were right about the Soviets, R105.

Fascinating! I just ordered the book. There are a few used hardbacks for $19.99, the rest are very expensive. Not sure why.

R103 - Lady Churchill, however, was on the other side. And after the Abdication, after attending events presided over the Albert and Elizabeth, he reported to Clemmie that he saw now she'd been right, Albert and Elizabeth were the right choice, and how wrong Wallis would have been for the part. I cannot remember in whose memoir I saw the following description of one of the earliest dinner events the Yorks hosted as King and Queen, but the memoirst reported that Elizabeth as usual was perfection, and wore upon her face an expression indicating how much she would have enjoyed her dinner party if she weren't Queen of England, adding, "I can see now what a mess Wallis would have made of it."

^*the new King and Queen , Albert and Elizabeth . . .

R108

George was borderline retarded, and the QM was a drunk. Thank God the BRF have no real power.

I don’t think it was “society” that supported Edward and Wallis. At least not what would have been considered “society” in the 30s - the aristocracy, landed gentry. Who did support them were what was or became known as “cafe society” - the same ones who feted the pair, and sponsored them throughout their exile. I think prior to the abdication they were referred to as “the Belvedere Set”.

Don’t forget just how right wing the pair were either. I think it’s very telling that Diana Mitford, who was friends with Wallis in Paris, commented on devoted the couple remained to fascist ideas well after the War, which she found unsettling, and would always try to steer the conversation elsewhere when they started down that path. To have Oswald Mosley’s wife stating she was unsettled by fascist views years after the War, says quite a lot.

According to Hugo Vickers, the unexpurgated Diaries are due to be released this year. If anyone has further info on this, please share.

OP here - Chips in the Abdication section describes some of the defiant behaviour of Edward re Wallis, and says "the throne has been blown upon" by Edward, whom he admits has been "brazen" and "foolish". Chips mentions the press disaster of the Mediterrean cruise, "the visit to Balmoral a calamity, after the Kinf chucked opening the Aberdeen Infirmary but then openly apeared at Ballater Railway Station on the same day to welcome Wallis to the Highlands. Aberdeen will never forgive him."

Channon said, ". . . it is quite true that the monarchy has lost caste enormously since last January."

Chips also states thatthe King had handled the press clumsily, and his handling of Fleet Street as "offhand, angry, ungracious" ; he never treats them in the right way or realises that his popularity largely depends on them."

I list these particular tidbits here because they seem startlingly relevant to the parallels to the Meghan-Harry situation. The primary difference, of course, is Harry's distance from the Throne, which renders the situation more comical than alarming.

But the repeat of certain elements of the two stories is striking.

^*the King chucked . . .

R113

[quote]According to Hugo Vickers, the unexpurgated Diaries are due to be released this year. If anyone has further info on this, please share.

Where'd you read that R112? There was talk a few years ago, but after the death of his son Paul Channon, nothing more was heard in the press. Paul's son is also called Henry, and used to publish high end art books, but I think is retired. I hope it's true. If so, I wonder who the editor would be.

The diaries of another old queen -- Kenneth Rose the royal biographer -- were published last year. (The second volume is coming out this year.) Executive summary: don't bother. Big things were expected, but they turned out to be a total wet fart. Rose revealed himself to be a boring lap poodle, with zero gossip worth relating. The best diaries are clearly written by cunts: Channon, Beaton, Lees-Milne…

Though not so flamboyant, the Diaries of Duff Cooper give an interesting view of that era

[quote]the Diaries of Duff Cooper

Trouble was, like Harold Nicholson, there was SO much he could have told, but didn't. Or maybe they did, and it was just their editors!

One set of diaries I think that would have been packed full of bitchiness were Queen Victoria’s! Unfortunately, her daughter Beatrice edited them so severely and then burned what she purged. Edward VII was furious when he found out what she was doing, thus setting up a permanent breach between siblings. Beatrice didn’t understand why her brother was angry, commenting that surely he wouldn’t have wanted others knowing their mothers private thoughts and opinions, which is exactly what EVII wanted.

Some hints at Victoria’s bitchy opinions still slipped thru Beatrice’s editing like her comment on her cousin, Queen Mary’s mother, Princess Mary Adelaide aka “Fat Mary”. Having not seen her in a few months, when writing about their visit Victoria noted “Mary’s gotten older, but not thinner.” I can only imagine how she must have bitched in her diaries and what we missed!

R110 - George VI was nothing of the kind; a brilliant intellectual he was not, but people who stammer are often viewed as being intellectually underdeveloped. In fact, he was bright enough to choose the right wife, smart enough not to be deflected after years of turndowns, served honourably in WWI, and he and his "drunk" of a wife (she certainly wasn't during the early years of family life or during the war years; drink became a habit that she indulged in her old age, not whilst carrying huge responsibilities publicly in the earlier years). They played a huge role in keeping the public's morale up during the war years.

They were wonderfully and suitably dutiful and dull - they were the antithesis of Edward and Wallis, of Diana, and the pathetic Meghan Markle trying to turn herself into Diana - whislt only succeeding in turning herself into Wallis Simpson.

Good, dull, dutiful - that's what you want.

It's the more entertaining and ambitious types who cause the trouble.

Queen Margrethe II is wonderfully creative as an illustrator, designer, textile artist, and has translated French authors into Danish. One doesn’t have to be dull in order to be good and dutiful.

R120 Yes, she is; however, the Danish monarchy hasn't gone through quite the contortions of the BRF, and has a much lower profile. And neither of Margethe's two sons are on her level - Crown Prince Frederik is exactly as dull as any of the Windsors, and for most of his adult life as a prince was also known to be lazy - his wife works much harder than he does.

Margrethe for all her arty interests, was also a notoriously distant mother, which led to problems for Frederik who, like Edward, seemed somewhat petulant and not terribly enamoured with his role as future king - his marriage to the down to earth Mary, who adores her life and role as a working Crown Princess, seems to have improved his image.

So it seems to be six of one, half a dozen of the other.

R115, Hugo Vickers told me himself.

OP here - got distracted by the arrival of Not Prince Archie.

I'm in the post-Abdication but lead-up to WWII section now, and the attraction to fascism of the upper classes is interesting, indeed. Channon wasn't alone in his admiration for Germany, and he absolutely worshipped Neville Chamberlain. At the same time, however, Channon notes that the new King and Queen are rapidly gaining in popularity.

OK: I have good and bad news.

The good news. The complete Channon diaries are being edited for publication, which is due in 2020. The news comes from the Buckingham History Festival website.

The bad news? The editor is journo and historian Simon Heffer. To my mind, absolutely the wrong person for the job. Channon requires someone with a feline intelligence, preferably gay or bisexual, such as James Lees Milne or James Pope Hennessy. Someone living who has that kind of intelligence, who would have been absolutely ideal is Philip Hoare, who wrote 'Serious Pleasures', that superb biography of Stephen Tennant. Heffer knows Channon's political world, which presumably is why he was chosen, but he comes across in his writings as a stolid character, who has never made a really big splash. His books to my mind never really offer flashes of real sparky insight. Here he is writing about why gays become politicians, carefully noting that he doesn't fall into that sector. It's wincing stuff.

R124 - Thanks for that info! I'll still be interested to see what was edited out of the original due to persons involved still being around.

[quote]I'll still be interested to see what was edited out of the original due to persons involved still being around.

AND what Robert Rhodes James edited out due to his homophobia!

R126 - Yes, given Channon's history Rhodes' "circumspectness" is fairly obvious. But he's also been somewhat judicious about Channon's political preferences. For all the later criticism of Churchill (some of which is quite justified), where the runup to WWII is concerned, Churchill knew early on where Germany under Hitler, Ribbentrop, and Goering, was headed, and Channon's worship of the Chamberlain approach was blindered, just as his partiality for Wallis Simpson was. I should add that I believe Churchill believed for the rest of his life that Edward VIII had been ill-treated, but also saw quickly after the Abdication as the storm clouds gathered over Europe that King George VI and Queen Elizabeth were the far better fate for the nation given what Churchill could see shaping up on the horizon. Churchill was capable of holding several views at the same time, and Channon was not. By 1938-1939, it was getting very dark, indeed. Having two pro-Fascists on the throne in tandem with Chamberlain's appeasement views would make for interesting historical fiction.

It is to George VI's credit that despite his initial dislike and distrust of Churchill, in the end he threw his considerable influence behind Churchill's views rather than the half of the War Cabinet that would have thrown in the towel in May-June 1940.

Well that depends if you think Britain declaring War on Germany was just dandy or foolish.

The number of Churchill doubters amongst even reputable historians grows by the day. War meant tens of millions dead, destroyed cities, and delivered eastern Europe into Communism for 50 years. It also sealed the fate of the Jews, who otherwise would have allowed to immigrate.

R128 - I'd like to know the numbers of historians who think Britain should have made terms with Germany's ruthless march through Europe with an openly declared aim of world domination, led by a clinically insane dictator operating concentration camps. The millions of war dead were Germany's doing, not Britain's.. The post-war division of Europe that delivered Eastern Europe to communism was, in fact, less Britain's doing than America's. By the Potsdam Conference, Truman was the prime mover and Churchill was already over - Britain was already losing its power and influence in the post-war era, and the American Century was well on its way. Even the British electorate kicked Chuchill out of office after the war. While the Allies rebuilt Germany, Britain was still suffering austerity and rationing. It was Truman more than Churchill and Atlee who gave into Stalin. Churchill and Atlee were only there as a courtesy to Britain, which wielded little power by then.

R128 - Oh, and as for Jews being allowed to emigrate: please, even after the camps were opened, Britain refused to take more than 50,000. I believe Anthony Eden was quoted as grumbling, "Just what England needs, 50,000 more kikes," or something to that effect.

By 1939, Hitler was in Poland, and the fate of Europe's Jews had been "sealed" far earlier.

Declaring war on Germany was hardly what I'd call "dandy", but it was hardly "foolish", either. It was, in fact, better than waiting on the good graces of a leader who had been aching for war to start since 1929, and finally invaded Poland to push Europe to the point when all else had failed - including "appeasement".

War was HItler's only route to the power he craved and the Europe he wanted to punish. At least Churchill had the good sense to see it and call it by its right name.

Chips' attitude, and that of fellow appears was that World War I was none of Britain's business. None. It had no reason to become involved. And World War 2 was the same. Of course one can't be sure, but like Switzerland, if the UK had stayed isolationist and neutral it is very possible it would have been a less painful outcome not only for the UK, but Europe generally. And with tens of millions less deaths. And yes, the blame for a lot of the misery of communist europe can be laid at the feet of America. FDR was old and sick, and like his advisers knew nothing of Europe, and Stalin walked all over him in the negotiations. Ironically, the only person who had a full understanding of the consequences was a Russian aristocrat who had become an American citizen, joined the forces, and was acting as an interpreter at the conference table, and knew eastern europe intimately. When Stalin moved the borders again and again on the map and FDR made no objection, he told relatives he could barely not scream.

appears = appeasers

R131 - No argument can be made for supposing even in fantasy that Hitler would have allowed a major power like Britain to exist unchallenged, and FDR died in April 1945, before VE Day. Potsdam took place in July-August 1945. It was Truman along with Churchill and Atlee who handed Eastern Europe to Stalin. To say that what Germany was doing as it mowed down Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Holland, Poland, and France was none of Britain's business is to assume existence in an alternate universe. After Munich, Hitler was desperate for war; Munich was a disappointment, and so he invaded Poland. You don't sit just across the Channel and assume that if you just keep quiet and mind your own business, Hitler won't come for you next and finish his job of ruling Europe.

WWI I grant was another matter. But WWII? No. Churchill knew with whom he and Europe were dealing - credit where due at least on that.

I unlike most here admire Wallis Simpson and see her as a tragic figure. She like many strong women was punished for not knowing her place.

She was a Nazi

That is nothing but bullshit, Wallis was not a Nazi. She cared about parties, clothes and maintaining fabulous homes. Not politics.

You might look to Prince Philip's sisters, or the Duchess of Kent's father- there is definitive proof for that- not rumor and innuendo.

Here's an interesting article on the beloved Queen Mother.

R136 - I'm afraid you're allowing your partiality to blind you to what was a well-known flirtation with fascism amongst Britian's higher levels of society, including Wallis's great catch, King Edward VIII and Wallis herself. Emerald Cunard was said to have influenced Wallis in this regard. Their shallow lifestyle of parties and nightclubbing was actually rather fortunate, as if they had been more serious types their leaning toward fascist Germany might have been more damaging, but the leaning was there. That's why, after the war broke out, the Windsors were sent as far away from Europe as possible. In fact, the Baldwin government was grateful for the crisis of the King's intended marriage, as it allowed them to get rid of someone they already knew had alarming political leanings.

And after the war, with everything that later came out, Edward was heard once saying at one of his own dinner parties, "I don't know, I never thought Hitler such a bad chap."

They were a pair of mindless, self-absorbed twats and Britan was well rid of them. Whatever flaws Albert and Elizabeth had personally, Britain was much better off with them as Heads of State than Edward and Wallis would have been.

I can just see Edward talking to FDR on the phone about the war news, and Wallis welcoming Eleanor to Buckingham Palace where, Mrs Roosevelt later reported, due to the rationing, she basically ate "sawdust on gold plate".

Yes, I can just see Wallis visiting the East End after it was bombed.

R134 - Exactly what does "strong" mean? Tragic? She lifted Edward from Thelma Furness when Furness had to leave town for awhile. She was a controlling schemer.

There was nothing tragic about her. She lived a life of unearned opulence and unimaginable privilege because of who she fucked, lived to a ripe old age, and spent her life partying, dripping with jewels, and ordering her emotionally dependent husband about.

The only people who like Wallis are gay decorators…

Thelma fucked Aly Khan while visiting the US to support her sister. She was no angel.

R140, not quite true. Wallis had many friends- some who even admitted to it after the abdication.

R141 - I do seem to remember that, but . . . is there anyone Aly Khan didn't fuck?!

A lot of biographers of Wallis owe a debt to Charles Higham. They filch his stuff without acknowledgement. Higham offers some interesting anecdotes of researching the biography in his own autobiography which was published by the University of Wisconsin...(which BTW always has a very interesting publishing list.)

Great thread, thanks!

R144 - Thanks for bringing Higham up - your comment is quite true.

R137 - In that article, you get a very good glimpse of how Gold's biases marred her judgement in that article and her distaste for facts that countered her narrative. Calling Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, daughter of the 16th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, an "outsider" is comical. She was born into the top drawer of society at the time, and was pursued by many young men of her own class. Her parents were wealthy and owned not only Glamis Castle in Scotland, but a beautiful town home in London, where Elizabeth mingled with the cream of society, and a country estate in England, St. Paul's Walden Bury. The assertion that she "aimed" for Edward and when she got no change out of him turned her sights on the younger brother, is unsupported by a single shred of evidence from the time. In fact, Elizabeth turned down Albert's first two proposals.

That Elizabeth was made of chrome steel I haven't a doubt - but the representations in Gold's article are ludicrous. An "outsider"? I think not.

The Queen Mother was born a commoner, and her family were cash poor.

There are many books that assert she carried her intense hatred of Wallis over decades because she did in fact want to marry Edward- who had no interest in her.

Wasn't it the case that Elizabeth had her eye on the equerry as R77 points out? In any case, wasn't it known by this point in polite society that Edward was a challenged sort?

[quote]After that visit, Mary arranged to have her son's equerry, one braw Jamie Stuart, 1st Vicount Findhorn, with whom Elizabeth was said to be enamoured, sent out of the country to Canada,

Elizabeth had other good reasons have a lifelong hate including Wallis indiscreetly making fun of her at social gatherings.

R148 - There isn't a shred of evidence that she wanted to marry Edward. Anyone who isn't royal is a commoner, including the entire aristocracy. That doesn't make them outsiders, that's absurd. And in point of fact, if she had her eye on anyone it was Jamie Stuart, Albert's equerry, whom Queen Mary had sent out of the country to make way for the reluctant Elizabeth.

Elizabeth's hatred of Wallis was well-known and had its roots in Wallis's rudeness to Elizabeth, the assumptions she made about marrying Edward, and the burden that then fell on Elizabeth's husband's shoulders during a time of major crisis for the country.

She was a patrician sort from the upper tiers of society. She wasn't an outsider. Her parents didn't give two fucks about the royal family or the girl wouldn't have resisted Albert's pursuit for so long. She was never going to marry the dustman.

You'll find that any books citing Elizabeth's "ambition" to marry Edward are mostly those whitewashing Wallis's ghastly missteps with the BRF.

I never said the QM was an outsider, but she was a commoner.

Gay friends of mine knew the QM very well, and lunched with her when in London.

She liked to sit with her back against the windows so her massive diamond drop earrings sparkled in the sunlight.

Everything they've told me accords with the narrative of her as fun company, slightly to the right of Genghis Khan, very spoilt, worldly, self aware, and sardonic in her humour. Nothing got past her steely eye. Even ballbreaking Wallis would have been like a glittery bug hitting a cold hard windshield.

Wallis could have kicked the Scotch cook's fat ass had she chose to. QM is a DL loser for those teeth alone.

Wallis tried to kick the aristocrat's earl's daughter's fat ass and failed; the Scotch cook ended up Queen and the last Empress of India. Wallis ended up a paradigm of vapid wealth.

The Scotch cook kicked Wallis's ass out of Britain and ended with the crown Wallis wanted.

I'd say she bit Wallis's bony arse with those teeth till you could hear the cartilage crunching.

And by the way, this thread is about the history of the era, not a dentistry competition.

Cookie indeed won. Wallis could only scored a handshake from Hitler. Cookie got Eleanor Roosevelt's hand on the back. The horror!

Wallis and Edward did indeed meet Eleanor, and later Nixon at a White House dinner in their honor. Not to mention having John Kennedy to dinner at their home in Paris.

The QM was a fat, unfashionable pig who spent the majority of her life drunk- hell, she even died €4 million in debt, bailed out by her daughter.

Go Team Wallis!

So chic!

It's at least 9 a.m., correct?

Fuck you, Wallis losers. All I need is a nice Hartnell, and a well retouched Beaton snap.

Dear Cecil can slice inches off hips and arms with just the merest brush touch.

Jealous, much? And NO, that HRH ain't going on that bony arse ever.

Heh.

Jesus, those tits look like they're hanging to her waist. I guess even Cecil could only do so much.

R160, Beaton was VERY generous with his touch-up in that pic. The Queen looks svelte, by that point she was already rolly-poly. UNLESS they squeezed her into a very constructing girdle, but it seems he thinned out her arms too. Nothing he could do about her kettle-shaped head though.

I see the Wallis trolls have managed to turn a discussion of Chips Channon's observations of a fascinating era into a vapid exercise in hatred of the Woman Who Won

As I mentioned earlier, whatever her figure, teeth, eyebrows, appreciation for gin and Dubonnet - watching her in her dove-coloured clothes comforting the plebs in the East End who'd been bombed makes it only too clear what a mess Wallis would have made of it, how totally unsuitable she was for the role she nakedly aspired to, and how lucky Britain was to have George VI and Elizabeth instead of Edward and Wallis with their fascist leanings and him leaving rings from the bottoms of cocktail glasses on important state papers.

Wallis was a shallow, narcissistic, domineering, social climbing whore who wore clothes well.

We'll never know how Edward and Wallis would have done, so it's entirely speculation.

R164 - Oh, given how he did before ther Abdication, showing his boredom and lack of interest in anything but the perks of Kingship, and Wallis's tactless ridicule of the Duchess of York where she could be heard, and quite a few other tidbits, including how they did where they were exiled to the Bahamas during the war, and Edward declining to open a infirmary in Aberdeen because he wanted to pick Wallis up at Ballater Station in the Highlands (what was it Channon said, dismally, "Aberdeen will never forgive him."?) - I think we've got a pretty fair idea.

As stated upthread, one can just see Wallis in her shellacked hair and immaculate chic outfits, dripping with emeralds, comforting the bombed tenements of the East End.

Not.

Let's return to Chips, shall we?

Yes, because it was so comforting to see Cookie dripping in fur and jewels after you have lost everything.

You hate-filled cunt, I'm blocking you. The Queen Mother cleverly dressed to look both royal and understated, choosing clothes in soft colours that didn't show the dust so much, but always with pearls and a hat and a brooch. She looked all at once reassuingly English, royal, sympathetic, and human - something Wallis couldn't have managed to save her life.

I'm tired of you using Channon's diaries as a chance to spew your hatred of the woman. You've hijacked what was a perfectly decent thread exploring historical issues.

Go stew in your mindless hate and worshiop of the woman who was practically fucking curtseying to Hitler and whose husband still didn't think too badly of Hitler after the war.

R166 I think she was quoted as saying when people come to see her they wear their best clothes so when she goes to see them she does the same. Can’t remember the exact wording but that was the gist.

OMG. There are people who actually love the "royal" family? I cannot believe that people are actually upset over someone not loving those useless posers.

Exactly. Since when did the DL love toothless fatties?

R167 has stated her boundaries.

He's telling us now!

Why are vapid, materialistic Nazi sympathizers so popular nowadays? Hmm. Can't put my finger on it.

R169 = This thread wasn't about "the royals". It was about Chips Channon's journals and his observations at a time between two world wars. He was one of the most fabled diarists of the era, and although the royals come into it because of the Abdication of 1936 followed by the gathering clouds of WWII, it ISN'T about the royals. The thread was hijacked by someone who tried to make the thread about Wallis and the Queen Mother.

The rest of us, thank you, were doing very well discusing the social framework of the era, the politics, the views of Winston Churchill as opposed to the Neville Chamberlain set . . . these were all part of what was being discussed.

Until the Queen Mum Hater In Chief arrived and made it about Poor Dear Wallis and that Nasty Queen Mother.

[quote]Beaton was VERY generous with his touch-up in that pic.

He's sliced so much off her hips he's made her slightly off-kilter in her stance.

Oh the shimmering royal bliss of it!

Trivia tidbit: Villa de la Croe in Antibes, which the Windsors rented before the War, is now owned by Roman Abramovich. One wonders what Wallis would think if she knew Naomi Campbell was sporting in her place.

R175 - No one gives a fuck what Wallis would think. She died a lonely raving old woman with no children, no grandchildren, and a greedy lawyer as her only living caretaker.

The roly poly Elizabeth, on the other hand, died at 102 with her daughter the Queen by her side, with a family of children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, still adored by the nation, the matriarch of a dynasty.

Good taste is just good taste. Wallis's life was empty, shallow, and purposeless.

Maybe Wallis could have used a bit more fat, estrogen, and frills.

R176, you are so tedious.

Well lets see. Roly Poly died a deadbeat who left behind over 7 million pounds of debt. How is that in good taste? Maybe Meghan is modeling herself after that greedy spendthrift.

Everything r176 was true not sure why it would be tedious. Wallis got what she deserved in the end.

Can we please get past the Wallis v. Elizabeth nonsense and return to the political situation Channon was part of as Hitler began planning to take over Europe?

How many times do we need to hear about the virtues of the Queen Mother? She "worked" for 15 years, and then spent decades sitting on her fat ass living off the public dole. She couldn't even manage that and died broke.

r181 The Queen Mother left a huge estate. She was property-rich and cash-poor. She borrowed money to pay her living expenses. Her debt was a small fraction of her estate and was paid off after her death.

Yes, by the Queen.

r183 And the Queen inherited the Queen Mother's huge estate.

Gin and chocolates aren't cheap.

r185 The old broad drank like a fish.

Jesus, how can anyone drink that much every day?

I'm continuing to block the virulent haters who can't seem to return to the topic of this thread.

R173 - Oh, you know - good tailoring and no one cares that you practically curtsied to Hitler or spent your life partying and going to balls and didn't care the your husband was a Nazi sympathiser - after all, the rubble in the East End during the Blitz and the austerity in Britain after WWII didn't even dawn on Edward and Wallis. Long as they had another party to go to . . .

Yes, the Queen Mother spent so much time in the East End she was practically considered family- especially when she would share a nip from her gold flask.

Dear Friends, please remember that the Ignore button can be your best friend.

Along with Charbonell Et Walker.

Elizabeth's undiminished regal lifestyle and chaotic personal finances resulted in a massive overdraft at Coutts, the royal bankers, causing anxiety to her financial advisers, to the Queen, who subsidised her mother to the tune of £2million annually, and to her eldest and favourite grandchild, the Prince of Wales, who also subsidised her out of his own pocket.

As the Queen Mother never carried money, and had only the haziest notion of how much anything cost, the frantic efforts of her courtiers to control her spending resulted in failure.

Her £643,000 Civil List annuity was over-spent eight times in every year, and indeed was less than half what it cost just to employ the 60 servants at her official London residence, Clarence House.

None of them know how much anything costs. The book by Charles valet is a riot- he was shocked whenever he heard prices. Evidently, he and Camilla can talk hours about expenses.

Moving right along here . . . OP here, I am past the Abdication, somewhat thankfully, and Channon who is an MP shows an interesting shift. At first, he was bored witless by Parliament, but slowly he has become entranced with how things work there, and also its "rank maleness" [sic]. I think only one female MP at the time, Lady Astor, so even more of an Old Boys Club. Channon has mostly vicious views on the socialists, predictably, and the government is now showing the widening splits between those who insist "we must be friends with Germany" and the realists, like Churchill, who can already see that war is probably inevitable.

Despite the warnings and the sight of Germany training up a huge arsenal and very disciplined military force right under Europe's eyes, Britain refused to arm itself and the government ignored calls to shore up the UK's military forces - the debates are interesting to read in hindsight.

On another thread, Agatha Christie's (as it is called now) "And Then There Were None" published in 1939 at the time shocked the public with its violent bloodshed. However, the scriptwriter who developed it for television a few years ago pointed out that by 1939, the mood in Europe was sombre and apprehensive as by then the storm clouds were all too visible, and the story reflected the mood of the time.

And yet, despite this, in addition to his responsibilities as an MP (which he carried out assiduously and was well-liked by his constiuency), Channon continues his rounds of dinner parties, luncheons, social events, records that the new King and Queen are becoming increasingly popular with each year, and, one of the most annoying yet refreshing entries are his appreciation for his own life - at odds with his periodic bouts with depression. He keeps wondering how he ever bcame the man with the adored wife (and he truly does seem to adore Honor, despite the obvious) and even more adored son, his "millions" as he calls them, his beautiful London home and country place, Kelveden.

He is the most curious blend of realistic self-awareness whilst living in a milieu that seems fragile as glass and completely out of touch with the rest of the country, never mind the rest of the world.

The Wallis admirers, and especially the Wallis haters, should read this recent biography. She's painted in a very sympathetic and flattering light, implying The Firm was behind much of her negative publicity.

R136 - Anna Pasternak is also the woman who novlised Diana's affair with James Hewitt to jeers that could be heard on Jupiter. She is quite possibly the worst writer on the planet and has been trying to milk tenuous royal "connections" with disappointing results. I wouldn't take anything Pasternak said with anything but a bucket of salt.

R197, that would be "Lady" Colin Campbell.

Did the Wallis troll kill this thread?

OP here - hopefully not. I have, however, had some recent travel that interrupted going through the diaries at leisure.

And, the political runup to WWII isn't quite the breezy read that the Abidcation section was.

Has anyone else yet gotten his hands on the journals?

Also, I would be curious if there are other British eldergays on this thread who are old enough to remember the war years as kids, in which at most they'd probably have been rising ten or so?

I’ve talked about getting the journals on this thread, but prices haven’t gone down on amazon and once I heard about an uncensored version coming out relatively soon I’m thinking I might just wait for that.

I love hearing from you OP, so keep us updated!

R201 - I will do so - I am back from travels and will return to the journals immediately!

OP here - moving through the runup to WWII, this first section of the diaries covers Munich and Coming of War 1938-1939, Channon's diaries show him to be fiercely pro-Eden and pro-appeasement. He keeps saying that war looks inevitable but refuses to believe it. In the very opening of the chapter, Channon writes:

". . . the Czech telegrams [advice was being given to the Czechs to consider "redrawn borders" - in other words, to cede the Sudetenland to Hitler] are very alarming, but I am quite convinced that Hitler is too canny to risk a war, so long as there is a chace of French and Russian participation."

This bit of fervent doublwe-think floored me, admittedly with some benefit from hindsight, but not entirely. It is astonishing to hear someone who isn't moronic see Hitler demanding the Sudentenland, mobilising two million men for Germany's miliatary, and yet to make a statement like that.

And a month earlier, the personal Channon wirtes, "I love my life: I love sauntering through the Park to the FO [Foreign Office, where he is now assigned and why he saw those Czech telegrams] and meeting the PM on the way: I love the rich flowers and seeing the Horse Guards disappearing under the arch, and I like the atmosphere of despatch boxes, Government messengers, the whole grey and red Government racket: the hurry and animation of Downing St. How could I have lived any other way?"

These two entries bracket the unusual persona of Channon - one with an almost Zen-like ability to absorb and appreciate the moment, even its mundane minutiae (a gift I wish I had, frankly), the fortune life had bestowed on him, his passionate love of England and English life - and the failure of those sharp perceptions to see the threat that Hitler represented.

These entries also show why the diaries don't become tiresome - they document both Channon's near state of personal bliss as well as the awful historical circumstandes that framed it.

^*this bit of double-think

R196 - that “untold story” was savaged by the reviewers. My fav quote from one review is “like it’s subject, it’s (the book) pushy, transparently duplicitous, and completely unconvincing.”

I don’t think she did herself any favors by using Wallis’ and Edward’s own autobiographies as cited sources either. Like R197 noted, Pasternak has being using her own tenuous connections, and riding her great-uncle’s name and fame, in her own literary pursuits.

Regarding Lady Colin Campbell, she is one odd duck for sure, and many/most called her out for a lot of what she has written in the past on the royals, but R198, much of what she was derided and ridiculed for was proven true in the years that followed. As an English friend said to me (he’s a toff btw), he believes people in the know do disclose to Campbell because she is known for never naming names, and because no one thinks anyone with real info would talk to her. He concedes that she may dress up the info to make it a bit more juicy, but at the end he believes she gets the story, the insider info correct.

You can't gave it both ways with the "Lady". She also claims the Queen Mother and one her brother's real mother was the family's French cook.

R206 - that story has been around since the QM was born. Just like the story about Hewitt being Harry’s real father. Neither of which will go away. All you have to do is look at a pic of the QM’s mother, then one of her; then look at a pic of young Philip, then of Harry and you’ll know they’re just stories, and there will always be an audience who will eat them up and believe them.

I’m not saying Campbell gets everything 100% correct, but she gets enough of then”behind the scenes” bits right that you know someone with real info is feeding it to her. Otherwise, like all royal biographers, she recycles tons of rumors and stories to juice things up.

R207 - It is quite hilarious to suppose that a woman with seven children in middle-age would suddenly desire two more so fervently that she'd turn to the French cook.

Why publish crap that you know isn't true? It ruins the author's credibility, if they have any.

Lady Colin has a clit the size of a small cock. No wonder her husband beat her up and threw her nasty ass out.

Wallis and Elizabeth were both vile assholes. I’m laughing at their fans in this thread...both of them were awful, horrible people.

OP here - back to Channon and WWII . . . this portion of the diaries was presented almost verbatim from the original, as it contains so much detail on the political situation. What is interesting about this is the contrast between Channon's powers of observation and his utter blindness to who Hitler really is. Channon, along with Chamberlain and the latter's acolytes, is stunned at how things go when Hitler marches into Prague and Italy invades Albania, violating the Anglo-Italian accord. Channon only admits the man is "mad" after Hitler tears up the Munich Agreement. Channon doesn't ever question Chamberlain's policies - he worships Chamberlain heart and such and even after the war starts and it is clear that Chamberlain and the appeasement faction of Parliament were wrong, Channon keeps extolling Chamberlain's virtues. Channon is dismayed when Chuchill takes over, but does not give Churchill the sllightest credit for having been right.

In late May 1940, Channon glances over the miraculous retreat at Dunkiek without so much as mentioning the name OR that the form of the rescue that finally worked was Churchill's idea. He gives Churchill due credit for oratory, but for nothiing else.

As with his completely blindered view of Wallis Simpson, Channon exhbits very strange blind spots.

And in-between the politics, there are huge social events at which Queen Mary appears, as Channon notes, literally dripping with jewels. Channon, however, must have been doing extremely well himself, for he reports proudly showing off his wife, Honor, in the "magnificent emeralds I got her". Whatever his sexual proclivities, Channon adores his wife and son. The boy, however, is sent out of the country for safety as spring 1940 draws on and it becomes clear that, as Channon initially hoped, the Nazi regime is not going to be disposed of in 12 months - that Britain is, thanks to Chamberlain and his followers, totally unprepared.

^*Dunkirk

OP here - well, children, it looks as if only the social gossip attracts interest, so I'll just keep going through the diaries - personally, the WWII period is quite fascinating to me, but I can imagine that it might not be for others. When I get to more social gossip, I'll return. Right now, we're only jjust past Dunkirk.

Enjoying this thread.

And OP, you are one of my favorite posters, on this and other threads.)l

[quote] It has a distinguished air and we will make it gay and comfortable.

He wasn't kidding!

R215 - I thank you! WWII is a lengthy portion so it's taking time to get through it.

R215 - LOL. And how! That said, it's interesting to read of his very genuine admiration and affection for his wife. Honor Guinness's family could have its own thread, given how it spread out across the nobility and royalty of Europe. As may be remembered, Sabrina Guinness once dated Prince Charles and was said to be quite cast down at losing out to the Rose Without a Thorn, as the virginal Diana was euphemistically called in the early days.

I didn’t realize he had a son. Thanks for the update OP. We appreciate you!

Hello, all. OP here and hope some of you are still interested. It took, quite a while to get through the WWII section, it was the longest in the diaries. As always, Channon amazes me by his strange ability to acknowledge despair, war, fear, and bombings, whilst at the same time savouring the moment and observing it. On 19 June 1940, Channon reports that the German army is advancing in France, crushing all before it.

Goes out to dinner with (wait for it) Harold Nicolson, Alice Harding, Lady Colefax, Lord and Lady Kinross, and others in the upper echelons of society, relates driving Nicolson home, and talks about how astonishingly beautiful London looks in the moonlight, ending the entry with this deathless quote: "I adore the black-out at this time oe year."

He still harps on the superiority of Neville Chamberlain over Winston Churchill, despite Churchill having proved right about Hitler all along whilst Chamberlain and his set kept trying to achieve peace with a leader bent on war.

He sent his beloved son to Canada, as many parents did, and describes the scene at Euston Station: "At the station there was a queue of Rolls-Royces and liveried servants and mountains of trunks. It seemed that everyone we knew was there . . . ." Channon says with disarming honesty, "I care more for Paul than for all of France."

Just as Paul Channon is evacuated, the Battle of Britain begins, and Channon relates the sirens sounding and heading for the cellar where he relates that he finds his scullery maid reading the Financial section of the TIMES.

It is this juxtaposition between huge historical events and an exquisite apprecation for small ironies like those, or ineffable moments like enjoying the blackout because of its aesthetic enhancement on London by moonlight that make the diaries so unique.

One moment he is describing a great speech by Churchill (Channon admits Churchill's command of English is extraordinary), and the next relating Maggie Greville (whose filthy manners and temper were tolerated because of her immense wealth - she left a fortune in jewels to the Queen Mother in her will) mocking Alice Keppel's "escape" from France at the 11th hour (Keppel was the legendary mistress of Edward VII and Camilla Parker-Bowles' great-grandmother) thusly, "To hear Alice talk about her escape from France, one would think she has swum the Channel, with her maid between her teeth."

As the Petain government government takes over in the wake of German occupation, Chips sourly writes, "The Third French Republic has ceased to exist and I don't care; it was graft-ridden, Communistic, and corrupt . . . the French National Fete day is no more; it is abolished as is that tiresome motto, Liberté, égalité, fraternité."

No one but Chips Channon would have the spine to casually dismiss that motto in that way.

One day after the fall of France, he writes wistfully, "All I want is an oval library with the doors leading to a rose garden, by the sea."

What lovely synopses, R219, keep them coming at your leisure. Will watch this space.

OP here - thank you, R220. As Channon died in 1958 after a series of heart attacks, I'm close to the end of the diaries. And, forgot to mention that at some point during the war years, Channon and Honor Guiness quietly divorced with apparently very little acrimony. Channon remained in Belgrave Square and with the country home he adored, Kelvedon and was a dutiful and loving father, driving his son up to Eton and going to see him there regularly.

In these last portions of the diary, people like Emerald Cunard begin to die off, leaving Channon feeling lonely and sad: he can already see the handwriting on the wall that the England he loved was disappearing before his eyes, all the cafe society, aristos, and important politicians slowly receding and the new post-war Britain taking shape.

He was returned as an MP for Southend six times and describes taking his oath of loyalty to several different Sovereigns, and was a guest at the wedding of Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip - he describes the young bride as looking attractive and shy. He was also present for George VI's funeral and the new young Queen's coronation, what he called, the day of days - "we are the new Elizabethans".

I have also just run into Channon's meditative take on the now young adult Princess Margaret: "There is already a faint Marie Antoinette air about her."

Through it all comes the persona of a man acutely, almost sensually, in love with his surroundings: his beautiful homes, his beloved London and beyond the capital, the England that, apart from his son, was the true focus of his capacity for passionate adoration - something that he himself was remarkably aware of, ruefully wondering what he might have become if that capacity had been turned elsewhere,

What is also striking is how much of that England he remained obdurately disinterested in: the poverty in the north, for example (the Jarrow Walk took place a month or so before the Abdication but gets no mention and the papers, of course, were far more interested in the Abdication), although he did call the 1930s "the thin-faced thirties", and Britain was home to some of the worst and most famous slums in Europe during the first half of the 20th century.

His England was both an idea and a reality, the latter of which whose aspects he recognised selectively to confirm that idea. As he lived it to the full, who am I to say he was wrong about that idea?

[quote] Sir Henry Channon ('Chips") was an American born in Chicago in the late 19th century of moderately well to do parents, who loathed America and adored England and Europe,

Cough! GAY! Cough!

R222 - Yes, we know, I believe that was covered early on. Prince Paul, Regent of Yugoslavia, was allegedly the great love of his life. That said, he had, up to a certain point, a reasonably happy marriage resulting in an adored son named after said Regent, with Lady Honor Guinness, whose father was the Earl of Iveagh. They divorced amiably during WWII.

It is reported that the unedited, unexpurgated version of the diaries is due to be released at some point soon, everyone having been raptured whose name could possibly have been blackened, smeared, or otherwise besmirched.

Perhaps then we'll get a clearer view of how Sir Henry Channon handled his private life whilst moving fluidly amongst the very different arenas of sophisticated cafe society, a deeply conservative monarchy, and what he called the "sweaty male den" that was Parliament.

For those who feel that not enough focus has been placed in this thread on Channon's sexuality, here is information that, naturally, the diaries themselves did not contain:

The divorce between Lady Honor and Channon was precipitated by Channon's affair with Peter Coates, a designer. Despite this, in the ensuring divorce, Honor was named as the guilty party (she'd left Channon for a Czech airman after the affair with Coates began in 1939), so theoretically, at least, Channon's place in society was left unthreatened. He was also known to have had an affair with Terence Rattigan.

His relationships with Prince Paul of Yugoslavia and the noted bisexual George, Duke of Kent, the present Queen's uncle, have never been openly proved to be sexual in nature, as the relationships with Rattigan and Coates were.

Honor Guiness outlived her ex-husband by nearly 20 years.

Rhodes James, editor of the volume I've just read and reported on here, said he saw "well-connected people go white" when they heard Channon had kept diaries.

It is reportedly the late Paul Channon's son, Chips' grandson, who is considering publishing the uncensored version of his grandfather's diaries.

We may only cross our fingers and hope he does.

And with that, I will be closing this thread unless others with to continue discussing anything raised herein.

Thanks to those of you who were interested in this glimpse into a fascinating era of English social and political history, some of whose ramifications, particularly with regard to the monarchy now being hotly discussed elsewhere on DL (what took you lot so long?!)Che, linger on even if the England they arose in has disappeared.

Goodbye, Mr Chips!

Thank you, OP, for a look into a bygone era, when there was still a place for a piss-elegant gay man in the world.

If he had enough money, of course.