FOSSE/VERDON, 4/16/19, "Who's Got the Pain?"

Michelle Williams is fantastic. An Emmy for sure. And this isn't even supposed to be her best episode.

Susan Misner is great as Joan McCracken.

Very well done.

Who was the "Eddie" he was complaining about from Damn Yankees?

R2 I'm guessing Eddie Phillips, who was the Damn Yankees dancer partnered with Gwen Verdon in the original Broadway Who's Got the Pain? number.

"Let's fuck behind your dying wife's back" is not a sympathetic turn of events.

I'm shocked at how entertaining Williams is. She nails Verdon's voice and being.

And she has "it" in the dance numbers. You believe she is the biggest star in Damn Yankees.

According to the Vanity Fair article, that was Fosse's SECOND wife. And she was 10 years older than him.

He never went to see her while she was dying -- and did not attend her funeral.

She got him to be a coregrapher -- and got his first big job on Pajama Game.

Such gratitude.

I don't think they're supposed to be that sympathetic (certainly not Fosse).

ARP!

Joan McCracken was considered the best Broadway comic dancer of her day. An odd distinction, but she owned it. She steals the show in the movie GOOD NEWS with her big dance number, "Pass That Peace Pipe," one of the finest of all MGM dance numbers.

Who is the audience for this show other than elderl;y gay men and Lin-Manuel himself?

So what was wrong with Joan McCracken? I thought she just had diabetes, but the show suggested she had a deadly disease with mental illness as one of its symptoms.

Gwen Verdon had a mullet before there was such a thing as a mullet.

Joan had a broken heart.

Fosse is such an unlikable asshole.

I didn't realize Joan M had reached a point where she was so frail by 1955 (when Yankees happened).

I had thought Gwen Verdon put on that voice, like Bette Davis put on her weird clipped way of talking only when she was on stage. I had no idea Verdon really spoke in that tremulous way all the time.

I'm so shocked by what an amazing actress Michelle Willians is.

This episode treated the original production of [italic]Damn Yankees[/italic] as if it were at [italic]least[/italic] the equivalent of the original productions of [italic]Antigone[/italic] or [italic]Tristan und Isolde[/italic]

Did Michael Kidd appear in this episode? There's someone credited as playing him, but outside of a mention of him to Verdon by Fosse, I don't believe he's seen, unless I missed him.

Wayne Wilcox is Michael Kidd.

How did they work that stupid "Who's Got the Pain?" song into the show Damned Yankees?

Did Lola just announce, "Hey gang! I'm gonna sing a stupid song for ya!"

[quote] Wayne Wilcox is Michael Kidd.

I know. I said someone was credited as playing him, but I don't remember seeing him in the episode.

In the show Lola performs it with Mr. Applegate's past workers after he fires her.

R21 The number is performed as a piece of entertainment during an event honoring Joe Hardy. Much the same way Steam Heat was performed as a piece of entertainment during a union rally in Pajama Game

Thank you R24 and R23

Damn Yankees is the only musical (or play) I have ever been in. I played Applegate.

I don't know why I never auditioned for anything else, as I had a great time. And stopped the show.

R20 and R22 Michael Kidd was the man Gwen tried to talk into doing the choreography for 'Damn Yankees'. He told he Fosse was hired and she panicked when he said he wanted to meet her. She thought it was for an audition when she was already cast.

Did Gwen have she start of Parkinsons in her later life. She had that breathy voice and head shake that Katie Hepburn had.

The song with the REAL Fosse/Verdon:

McCracken was also married to Jack Dunphy, who later was longtime lover to Capote. She had diabetes and finally died of a heart attack.

"And stopped the show."

I don't think that means what you think it means.

R23 is wrong (unless there's some revival rewrite I don't know about.) R24 is correct.

To what does the repeated “ARP!” refer? I honestly have no idea. I know it’s a stupid song but I’m curious.

^^^^^Watch the video above and you will understand.^^^^^^

So it is just being out of shape and busting a move so you blurt out “ARP!”? I had hoped there was some other meaning, but I guess it is just that stupid.

Look at those wide shots in that Damn Yankees clip! You'd never see those kinds of shots in a movie musical these days. It's enthralling to watch without having a cut every 3 seconds.

R35 Man, you certainly sound like a dick with very little effort.

Oh what the hell, here comes Lola! [italic] (BTW, now why Tab wasn't interested!) [/italic]

r35 Jeez Louise! Those two could never be considered [italic] 'out of shape. [/italic] They are the fucking words to the song!

No one called them out of shape, you fool! The “ARP!” was the question and it still has not been satisfactorily answered or explained beyond it’s a stupid affectation in a stupid song. Whatever!

They are not saying, "ARP!"

They are saying, "AARP!"

According to the Damn Yankees published script - which I hold here in my hand - they should be saying Ugh! However, it's always sounded like Erp to me.

[quote] R20] and [R22] Michael Kidd was the man Gwen tried to talk into doing the choreography for 'Damn Yankees'. He told he Fosse was hired and she panicked when he said he wanted to meet her. She thought it was for an audition when she was already cast.

The only scene where that happened was when Gwen is sitting with Hal Prince in the diner and he tells her Fosse's been hired. No Michael Kidd.

R42 Ugh is a lot harder to project than Erp.

I feel like I am watching this series solely to find out how this dance number was made and what it means.

R45 Cleary, the inspiration for that video was Beyonce's Single Ladies video.

Thank you so much, R42. NOW it makes some semblance of sense. The rest of you can fuck off (and I bet none of you cunts knew it was "Ugh!" and not "Arp!").

[quote] (and I bet none of you cunts knew it was "Ugh!" and not "Arp!").

I had no idea until you posted this that retarded people assumed everyone else was retarded.

Of course we knew it was "Arp!"

"To what does the repeated “ARP!” refer? I honestly have no idea. I know it’s a stupid song but I’m curious."

It's what the person who gets the pain while doing the Mambo says. The lyric says it plainly: "Who's got the pain when they do the Mambo?" Who's got the pain when they go ugh (or Arp! if you prefer)!"

Anyway, it's a silly song but a great dance number. It's one of Fosse and Verdon's best routines. Their bodies seem perfectly synchronized while doing this difficult dance scene.

Off topic,....TOMMY TUNE IS 80 YEARS OLD !?!

It definitely sounded like “Erp!” in the episode.

It always sounded to me like Gwen was saying "Erk!"

It was obvious she was saying, "Herp!" as in the painful scorching case of herpes that Fosse gave her.

You Broadway queens have dropped the ball.

Probably a ball with herpes.

Like that game, hot potato.

Ugh vs Erp in terms of singing is really the same as Me vs. May. Professionals can belt Ugh, but poor Glenn Close can’t belt Me.

Bump-because this should be the next thread, not that dumbass one which has the title of the first episode on it.

"Erk"!

Watched this episode and agree with the others who've said it was too vague regarding Joanne's illness. WTF was she suffering from anyhow? I also hate the jumping around time-wise and find it hard to know what decade the show is in at any given moment. That said, I will be tuning in tonight.

She had Type 1 diabetes, R57.

So which fucking thread is the one being used now?

It should have been Fosse/Verdon: The Official Thread and then Part 2, Part 3 and so on.

Only thing I didn't like in ep 3 was the baby crying sound being a bit too overused. Otherwise I thought Michelle was magnificent.

Is this show worth watching if you’re not a huge Broadway fan?

(Asking seriously).

Is it a well made show in general with good acting?

I can enjoy series and movies that revolve the entertainment industry and the people who work in them (including biopics about singers, etc.), but I’m not a major fan of Broadway specifically, so was wondering if this was a show just made to give winks, nods, and “Easter Eggs” to huge Broadway obsessives only....

Is it great ?....NO. Is it good ?....YES. Michelle Williams is definitely the highlight. The Broadway aspect is in the background....but its a drama about the relationship between Fosse and Verdon.

R29, that video of the Fosse/Verdon dance was indeed fascinating! Yes, the song is truly awful and ridiculous, but the dancing was compelling and complicated...

Something I found interesting was that (to me) it almost did not “feel” like a duet, because it felt like Fosse was dancing by himself and for himself and trying to be the shining star in that number rather that feeling like he was doing the dance truly “with” his partner and trying to let her shine just as much as he was....

I feel the opposite usually when I watch a duet with someone like Gene Kelly (also a dancer, choreographer, and director—and known to be super controlling with a huge ego); Kelly shines in dances with partners, *but* I always feel like he is aware of his dance partner throughout the scene and number and is dancing *with* them and letting them have moments to shine as well....

Thank you for your reply and honesty, R62! A show that focuses on the relationship dynamics—I can watch that.

I’m interested and will give it a try!

R64 Except for Michelle Williams (who is truly great) really don't waste your time.

I'm not a particular fan of Michelle Williams, but I have to say she is really remarkable in this. As far as Fosse, I think Sam Rockwell looks good and is doing fine, however, the series seems to emphasize Fosse's negative qualities - his cheating, his agonizing in the editing room, his reliance on pills, his perfectionism - but not enough attention paid to his unique genius and groundbreaking talent.

And a little too much Nicole for my taste - we get it, she was the semi neglected kid of two Broadway icons. But she's listed as a "co-executive producer" so I guess she gets some input. But overall I think it has a great look and is very well done.

BTW, the biography FOSSE by Sam Wasson that this is based on is great, and I've read two or three of the other ones.

I didn't realize Gwen was forced to marry her (basically) rapist who got her pregnant when she was a teenager.

[quote]So it is just being out of shape and busting a move so you blurt out “ARP!”? I had hoped there was some other meaning, but I guess it is just that stupid.

...and racist. The latino equivalent of blackface. I do t understand why they spent so much time, almost a whole episode on it. Imagine if some documentary or biopic about Judy Garland or Fred Astaire prominently featured their blackface numbers.

And the choreography was one of Fosse’s worst. Not once do they actually mambo.

And the “ugh!” could be a reference to the actual ugh! Cuban bands used to scream in many mambo songs. Sometimes it would be “Aaaaaaa-já UGH!”

Episode three was very good. I would have said excellent hadn’t it been for that silly “opening number” with the sexy secretaries popping out of the hallway doors with sixties hairdos in the seventies. And I won’t even get started in the rolling furniture and Poseidon Adventure set tilting that sucked him into oblivion.

Thank goodness for Michelle Williams, who hit it out of the ballpark throughout. My favorite line:

FOSSE: When was the last time you acted?

VERDON: When you walked in the door an hour ago. How did I do?

Wish someone would write a good detailed bio of Verdon.

Add me to the camp of being a non-fan of Michelle Williams until this. She's really excellent. On the opposite side, I've always loved Sam Rockwell and I'm not loving him here. Maybe it's the way the role is written.

How come early Gwen is cast as a strawberry blonde and Michelle Williams has the red hair of the Gwen who became famous?

So when do they cover "New Girl in Town", "Redhead" and "Sweet Charity" when Gwen did it?

Also Gwen with Marilyn Monroe, Jane Russell and Betty Grable, teaching them Jack Cole's dance routines.

....

R70 - there is a biography.

God, they're trying so hard to shoehorn the daughter into everything.

He's beginning to look like that Tom Cruise character from Tropic Thunder. And that Pippin montage took me back to some cringey theater camps I went to as a kid.

R77 - that shouldn't surprise since Nicole is one of the Executive Producers.

It seems as if the director is using a lot of Fosse's ideas of fantasy from All That Jazz in this. I like the series especially Michelle. Sam is good but the character of Fosse is so unsympathetic.

Whoever dreamed we would ever see someone playing Irene Ryan on TV in any context?

Rockwell seems to be missing the physical appeal of Fosse. He's not the least bit sexy.

Agree with R80. Fosse's characterization is not well served in this series. And that fantasy sequence when he was about to jump about the window was stripped right out of ALL THAT JAZZ - I expected them all to break into "Bye Bye Love". And then to be saved by plaintive little Nicole's Cossette like number....bleah.

I think Rockwell is doing the best he can, but the way the character is presented doesn't give him much to work with. He's presented as a complete shit at every turn - we already know he's a chain smoking, drug taking philanderer, but he doesn't come to Gwen's play, he doesn't visit the dying Joan Simon, while at every turn Saint Gwen selflessly shows up whenever he needs her. I'm beginning to think Nicole Fosse may have some old daddy scores to settle. Rockwell can't be sexy because he's not written as sexy - just a creep who tries to practically rape one of his dancers on the sidewalk.

The supporting characters are not well served either - we should have had more Liza, who won her Oscar for CABARET. I have a feeling Chita will get short shrift too. And the Paddy Chayefsky character is a ridiculous caricature.

I keep hoping it will get better, and will probably stick it out, but I'm not hopeful. And I already know how it ends.

Is this the latest thread on the show? Or has decided to do a thread on each episode? I don't think that's necessary though. I'm enjoying the show, but they've made quite a few mistakes in the timelines among other things. Plus they've made Fosse's character so dark, it must be pretty hard for Rockwell to make his character more multi-dimensional as his performances usually are.

I can't wait for Joan Simon to die. Aya Cash is like watching a high school play.

I can't decide what's more annoying in this episode, the countless shots of boring as fuck Nicole, who should be a prop and nothing more, or the even more boring commercials for Tolkien.

[quote] Rockwell seems to be missing the physical appeal of Fosse. He's not the least bit sexy.

Oh good Lord. You must be the same idiot who was insisting someone like Ben Affleck or one of the Hemsworth brothers should play Fosse.

Bob Fosse was NOT attractive once he hit middle age. Not even in the slightest. Sam Rockwell has a much better body than Fosse had at the same age.

Most of last night's episode took place in 1973--this (below) is what Fosse looked like that year.

Just because Fosse had lots of sex in middle age does NOT mean he was a physically attractive man by then. Most of the women who slept with him did so either because he pressured them to do so for their jobs or because they wanted him to cast him in movies or musicals.

He was physically nasty by then--bald, with bad skin, a terrible haircut and a terribly groomed beard, and he had lost his previous muscular dancer's build. He drank too much and he did too many drugs and he smoked, and he also dressed horribly. And even when he was young he was not a handsome man.

Agree r85. Cash is awful although she was okay last night, though you could tell someone splashed water on her eyes for those tears.

I think r83 has summed it up well. It's become Mean Fosse vs. Saint Gwen. There's no nuance or layers. It's becoming repetitive.

Also, is it just me or is the show visually bland? Those '70s montages last night just looked cheap. They looked like pale imitations of the disco sequences from Looking for Mr. Goodbar.

What is it with that weird pretentious accent Aya Cash uses as Joan Simon? And why does she always look like she's just been to a hairdresser who gave her a set and then put an enormous immaculately tied ribbon in her hair, even when she's recovering from surgery?

why does she always look like she's just been to a hairdresser?

Neil liked his women well-groomed at all times. Otherwise - you're out!

What's even more bizarre is that Keith Gordon, who played young Bob in All That Jazz, looks like older Fosse now. They really cast that one right.

Holy shit r91. You're right.

Nicole should have just made herself the main character and been done with it. Agreed, the endless shots of her are tiresome.

It's funny because you would think having Nicole as one of the producers, you would learn more about her in this limited series than All That Jazz, but I feel we got a better characterization in Fosse's own movie.

I find her irritating in this series. Just as irritated as Gwen was when Nicole wanted to watch Partridge Family.

I'm not watching the show, but I've been watching a lot of Fosse and Verdon videos on YouTube. Check this one out. I don't know what the setting was, but they put on quite a pastiche.

Gwen is such a professional. She is "on" and stays on the entire time, ready to jump and perform at a moment's notice. Her movements are perfection.

The more I see her dance the more I love her, she’s fabulous!

Would there possibly be footage of her doing Chicago? What role did she play? Did she do Chicago?

Roxie Hart

[quote] What role did she play?

She played Amos, Rose.

Well, Gwen really wants to do "Chicago", Fosse wants to do "Lenny", Fosse's screwing Ann Reinking, and Neil Simon, now a widower and Paddy Chayefsky (gay? straight? asexual?) are guests at Bob's Southhampton (rental) home, with Nicole getting sick after smoking a cigarette she took the filter off of. Gwen also brought her boyfriend along. Oh, and Bob's been in the mental hospital. Those zany Fosses! Michelle WIlliams is great, though it's hard to understand the actress playing Ann. Paging Phoebe Dinsmore. Rounded tones, Miss Lamont, Rounded Tones.

These people are narcissists.

Gwen was a fine actress in real life, able to put on a show there as well as on stage. I still like her though. They aren't making Fosse out to be anything but a jerk though. Even when he tells of losing his viriginity at age 13, Neil Simon and Chayefsky act like overeager frat brothers, instead of saying that while it might have felt good, it was kind of sexual abuse of a minor.

It's such a strange show, although it's been a great vehicle for Michelle Williams,. She and Rockwell are such chameleons (but Fosse was not as interesting a person as Verdon). I liked how they finally deepened her character this episode, and got across what a selfish mother she was--not really caring what a horrible experience the weekend was for Nicole, and unwilling to deny herself the experience of being with Bob and the other men.

On the other hand, Ann Reinking was basically portrayed as faultless, but maybe they'll give her more depth in future episodes.

Next episode seems like it's just going to be a repeat of "All That Jazz."

I think Nicole was fond of Ann so maybe that's why she come across well.

For R103

More time wasted on Nicole!! Eating the pickles, taking five minutes to smoke that stupid cigarette, and then the lovely shot of her vomiting in front of the adults. NOBODY CARES!

Other than that, how did you like the show, Mrs. Lincoln?

"Just because Fosse had lots of sex in middle age does NOT mean he was a physically attractive man by then. Most of the women who slept with him did so either because he pressured them to do so for their jobs or because they wanted him to cast him in movies or musicals."

According to "Fosse" by Sam Wasson, on which this tv series is based, women WERE sexually attracted to Fosse. Some of them resisted his advances but most of them didn't. He had a fit body and was, according to Wasson, a good lover. But I think women were primarily attracted to him because of his talent, his brilliance. I think that's what really drew women to him.

And that's what Rockwell isn't capturing. The talent, the brilliance, the allure. Nothing. He's just miscast.

ARP!

Now I want to see Michelle Williams in Sweet Charity.

How about someone who can do all the dancing as well as sing and act, as well as be charming and vulnerable?

[quote] And that's what Rockwell isn't capturing. The talent, the brilliance, the allure. Nothing. He's just miscast.

It's not that he's miscast, it's that he's being directed to play the role as though Bob Fosse was Paul Snider.

R112, in Fosse's mind, he was Paul Snider and Verdon was Dorothy Stratten. That's why Star 80 is so ugly. He identified so strongly with the killer.

No, what Fosse said was- if I had not had the talent and success I had, I could see myself ending up like Paul Snider (meaning small time, not a murder-suicide perpetrator).

R114, whether or not he admitted it, what he put up on screen was very revealing. Remember, he didn't just direct it, he wrote it as well. As with all his later work, nothing is fleshed out, it's just a shell for him to try all his tricks.

Why all the hatred towards Nicole. She had two famous parents but was cute, modestly talented and knew when to get out of the spotlight. Now Lisa Mordente on the other hand......

It's been explained, R116. How many different ways do you need it?

What the story with Lisa? She some got a Tony nomination for a flop years ago, didn't she? Is she still in the business?

somehow