Apologies/Forgiveness

I have. Some people don't have it in them, but they may show you they regret their behavior towards you.

If you’re over 40 you should realize people doing things to you has nothing to do with you but them. It’s your choice to forgive or not. Either way it won’t matter as they are people you don’t need in your life either way. Their apology won’t give you the closure you can give yourself either way.

It's really difficult OP. I definitely struggle to forgive people who don't apologise. But I think not getting an apology is probably more common than getting one. I'm not religious at all but I had a Christian friend a few years ago who explained it to me as something that you have to do consciously, and that it's not easy, and that you often have to do it every time you think of the situation - like constantly peeling off layers of an onion.

I do think that the focus on forgiveness in Christianity can be very destructive, such as when an abused woman 'forgives' her abuser over and over and feels that having or expressing anger is a taboo - that is very destructive. But, if you do want to forgive someone, I think that explanation is helpful. Before then I thought it was something you either felt or didn't, but i realised that emotional responses can be a thing that you consciously decide to shape, and that it can be a good thing, used correctly.

If forgiveness is defined as no longer giving enough of a fuck about someone that you could give a rat's ass if they're alive let alone apologetic, than yeah, I've forgiven someone without an apology.

OP here. Thanks for your replies. I ww’d your replies. Did that show up? I don’t know how I would know. It was a long time ago. Incredibly irresponsible behavior nearly led to my death and my child’ s. We are lucky to be alive. No regret has been shown as this person is never wrong. It’s not something I dwell on. I am just curious about what others think, do regarding this topic

Yes.

In my opinion, life is too short to hold grudges, and it’s bad for your health.

It’s also not difficult to apologize. If you make a mistake, apologize. If you didn’t mean to hurt someone, tell them that. If you hurt someone, apologize. If you were wrong, say so. A heartfelt apology is a valuable thing.

I had a best friend whom I should have realized early on was solely about self preservation. He stabbed me in the back and then when I confronted him on it, gave me the "yeah, I guess I did that. Sorry that you feel that way" instead of "sorry I was a dick and I'll never do it again."

I ended up erasing him from my life but like a reverie in WestWorld, the artifacts are still there and mess with me all the time.

It did show up R5 thanks. A little notice appears in the corner of the screen and if you click on it it takes you to the post that was liked, unless you're already on the thread, in which case it tends not to take you to the comment but tells you it's on that thread.

With your situation - I don't know the context, or whether you are still in contact with this person, but sometimes forgiveness isn't possible or, in my opinion, appropriate. In those instance I think the best thing to do is to try and shape your responses by not refusing to dwell on it as much as possible, provided there's no risk of this happening again?

This is another thing I struggle with, but I do think a good idea is to try and distance yourself from the thought/feeling by asking yourself is it useful to think about this now? is this helping me at all? if we need to forgive someone it is because we have been wronged and then we cause more harm to ourselves by letting it consume our thoughts. Like I said, this is very hard as well, but it might be something we could both decide to do? and like with anything I think it would take a lot of practice and also failing along the way, but it would be worth doing and I think we would both get better at it over time.

Yes, Countess LuAnn, I do forgive them.

Now move the fuck on!

R5, Yes, thank you. My Dad was a wonderful father and wonderful husband to my Mom. But, there were rare occasions when he'd have too much too drink, and become a terrible raging asshole. I held a grudge for a long time, until i basically turned into him. To forgive myself (and to try to change my future), I also had to forgive him. In old age, he shrunk, so that I practically towered over him, and became incompetent because of Alzheimer's. He had become a little boy, all over again, and I know that his own childhood was pretty brutal, especially compared to mine.

[R8] I’m on my phone. Plus I don’t have a paid subscription (yet). I explained the situation in [R5] . I don’t think I’ll ever be able to forgive what could have been my and my child’ s death. But like I said I don’t dwell on it. Just came here out of curiosity.

OP, re-reading the posts, I don't blame you for having trouble forgiving, if your child's life was put at risk. We all take our chances with other people, in different ways, but parents are expected to protect their children from danger, and if that means cutting someone off, that's the price that needs to be paid.

Don't ask me. I can't forgive people who HAVE apologized.

Absolutely not. I do not forgive. It's stupid.

My mother cannot apologize, it’s not in her. She can never ever admit she’s wrong either. She’ll argue and argue until you either get furious or leave. I’ve hated her since birth, but I’ve softened a bit because as people say, you only get one.

She drives me up a goddamn wall though.

Q: Did the alleged offender ask for your forgiveness ?

If they have not asked for forgiveness then it is a non-issue.

Oprah says, "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself." And she's right.

OK, OP. Spill the specifics. Who did what to whom?

All religious text is black and white. Life is so much more complicated. How can you forgive someone who is not sorry? You can't. It does not compute. The two are part of a whole. Forgiveness does not exist without regret.

That's only true, R19, if you're immature and shallow. Your entire post is creepy.

Rise above it. Forgive an imperfect human for being, once again, imperfect. And move on.

Or stay in place seething and fuming, as you have chosen to do.

R19 wins.

R20 *eyeroll*

What bull shit talking, Oprah worshipping, lying through their damned teeth jackaas who only wants to sound enlightened and above it all could possibly forgive THIS? You, R20, foolish one? You better grow the fuck up and know that demons walk among you! Your statement does not impress me at all.

Forgive but don't forget...

R21 yeah. The Booby Prize.

Bump

I have learned as I’ve gotten older that not only do you have to forgive, but not forgiving does more damage to you than it does to them. It really doesn’t matter if an apology is offered or not. Just forgive, let it go, and move on with your life. Trust me, you’ll be happier and better off for it.

What exactly does forgiveness mean? And please, don't come back with any self-aggrandizement Oprahism or Dr Philism on this. I want the REAL skinny about forgiveness and not some blanket statement akin to "forgiveness is a gift for you, the foregiver." These are the same people who will tell you in the same breath that "respect is earned and not given outright." By that logic, your forgiveness is not very valuable, so let's just give it out willy-nilly - and hey, you don't even have to desire it from me! All that new age self-centered bull shit. What's the real deal?

From a Christian/religious standpoint, sure there are a lot of verses which say to forgive ongoing without a qualifying apology, but there is a verse in the book of Luke which goes like so: "Watch your back! If someone does you dirty, then you have the right to kick him to the curb! HOWEVER, IF HE APOLOGIZES, THEN YOU MAY FORGIVE HIM. If he again fucks up seven times in a day and says "I'm sorry" those seven times, then forgive him each time." Repentance/Sincere apology is key here. In this verse, we are told to forgive the sincere apologist, but otherwise "Don't be no fool!"

I agree with R19 that forgiveness without the benefit of an apology is futile. It doesn't make sense. It's like peanut butter with no jelly. It's illogical. It's like work with no wage. It's like 2+0=4. Don't worry about that 0 where another two should be seen, you can still make the sum total 4 if you want to, and you really should for your own benefit. That's foolish.

RE the disturbing child abuse video: If that baby was yours, go ahead and raise your hand if you'd forgive the monster who so brutally tried to murder your baby. Keep it real, now.

R27 - to me forgiveness when nothing has changed, for example an abused wife 'forgiving' her husband and then being re-vicitmised repeatedly, is so destructive. Also, there are some things which I don't think it is usually helpful to talk about forgiving, such as when someone has hurt you or your family irreparably, as that puts the onus on the victim/s, who are justified in their hatred. But if these people choose to forgive then that's also legitimate.

But, when anger or resentment or bitterness over past wrongs is actually making you unhappy or damaging relationships you would like to keep, then forgiveness in the absence of an apology means, to me, deciding not to be angry with the person anymore. People can have perfectly cordial relationships with family while still nursing anger at past wrongs and getting angry when they think about it or holding a grudge inside. Or people cut friends and family off for something that could be overcome, when choosing not to be angry might have made them both happier.

So, to answer your question, for me it would be about shaping your emotional responses (in your thoughts and/or actions depending on the situation) so that you deliberately replace anger with a non-response to the thought of what they did, or, perhaps with empathy for the person, such as understanding why they might have done what they did at that time.

Beneath this question of apologies and forgiveness seems to lurk the obsession with being "wronged" and also needing to be proven correct.

There also needs to be a sense or proportionality and context added to this discussion. Before the question or apologies or forgiveness comes into question, the magnitude of the offense or transgression matters and intent, as well as true contrition. It's one thing to cause an injury or harm by accident and another to do so intentionally.

Finally, along the lines of true contrition, the intent behind the apology AND forgiveness has to be considered. Even if another person is truly sorry, the majority of apologies are selfish and are driven by the desire of the one apologizing to clear his conscience. Such apologies are worthless, even if the person is truly sorry. In turn, the majority of time, people use the granting or withholding of forgiveness as a method of vengeance, rather than absolution. In many cases, forgiveness is the last and only weapon someone has.

There are some circumstances where no apology can be made in a meaningful fashion nor forgiveness offered, yet people want or need one or the other.

It's funny how "forgiveness" works. I had a bipolar friend who would have such embarrassing episodes that our group of friends decided they couldn't be around her anymore and ghosted her. Myself and another friend didn't have it in us and would sacrifice good times with our group to suffer with her. One weekend, we decided to make up excuses and hang out with the fun group instead. Bipolar friend found out and never forgave us for it. Instead, she began trying to ingratiate herself back in with the old group of friends who had originally ghosted her. When I asked why she was fine with them but not us, she said "because you guys are better than that and I can forgive them, not you!"

Does forgiveness work on a sliding scale?

R10, I had the same experience. It also helps that I’m a parent now, and see how difficult it is.

I apologized to, and in turn forgave, my parents. And will do so with my own children.

When we know better, we do better.

[quote] Oprah says, "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself." And she's right.

Oprah always knows the right thing to say. But I often wonder if she actually lives by these principles. Easier said than done.

When you carry a grudge you are only hurting yourself, the other person has moved on with their life and may not even remember doing anything to you. Your failure to forgive, is only hurting you. That however does not mean you should forget, don't be a patsy. If it was something serious, don't make the same mistake twice and allow them to do it to you again.

Forgive but don't forget. People who will do enough injury to your body, psyche or well-being to warrant an apology will likely do it again. It is them not you. The hardest part is knowing when to release/push away destructive people who you care about.

[quote] Your failure to forgive, is only hurting you. That however does not mean you should forget, don't be a patsy. If it was something serious, don't make the same mistake twice and allow them to do it to you again.

So what is "forgiveness" in this scenario?

[quote]When I asked why she was fine with them but not us, she said "because you guys are better than that and I can forgive them, not you!"...Does forgiveness work on a sliding scale?

r30, I'd argue that that situation falls within the points I made at r29.

Forgiveness is always a function of the person doing it, not the person to whom it is granted. While your previous sacrifices would seem to warrant greater latitude, from your friend's perspective, I'd argue that your perceived "transgression" was more severe and less deserving of forgiveness due to intent and knowingly doing what you did (which was perceived as wronging her).

An imperfect analogy. You go to a birthday party and two people give the person a gift worth $100. The recipient is grateful for receiving the gift from Friend A because he's a teacher and only makes $42K per year while calling Friend B cheap because he's an investment banker and makes $500K year. In your story, you're Friend B.

Check out the Forgiveness Project at Stanford.

The crazy woman at work is the queen of fake apologies. She is constantly apologizing of even the littlest thing.

Then she goes dingbat crazy, accusing you of some nonsense.

I will never forgive that cunt

You're always the asshole in someone's life story.

To me, 'forgivness' involves not letting a hurt cause further damage to my mind, body or life by way of obsessing over it. I accept the situation, learn from it (usually not to trust the person again or as much as I did) and I move on. Because, LIFE GOES ON, thank God.

If you're stymied at the 'moving on' part, get help. That isn't a hurt that's being done by another person, that's an injury your perpetuating upon yourself.

I don't give second chances. I meet new people all the time and strike easy friendships or acquaintances. Anyone fucks up, their loss.

Resenting someone / holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other one (the person you hate or resent) to die. Check the experience for some valuable things you can learn from (say, you lent a friend money, and he didn't pay you back and talks smack behind your back - Don't lend friends money), close the chapter and move on.

We overestimate our social bonds (and yes, I include married spouses) which creates codependency issues where we hold on to hate and resentment in order to maintain a relationship that, quite frankly, doesn't suit us anymore (when all we do is resent and hate that person for something or many things).

The only person I'd ever want an apology from is a sociopath so it'd be pointless; once or twice he may have said he was sorry when he was fucking with my head; just enough for me to stupidly give him another chance.

I could never believe any apology as looking back he would turn on a dime over nothing.

I can't think of anyone else I let myself care about whom I'd want an apology from.

The person I really struggle to forgive is myself. I feel like I constantly sabotage myself and have for a long time, then I nurse grievances against myself which make me more likely to sabotage myself in the future. It's really difficult, but I know the only way to move on is to try and stop my self-blame. Does anyone else struggle with this?

There are other more satisfying options.

Yeah, i can, if i feel they are remorseful but can't put it into words.

r43, stop blaming yourself and train yourself to see everything you experience as a great way to learn something new (about yourself and the world around you) that can help you to grow as a person.

I know it sounds silly for a lot of people, but the fact that we are alive and on this planet means that we are worthy (to be alive and on this planet). You are worthy to explore and experience. Don't be afraid and don't see everything you do as a mistake. See yourself as an explorer looking for more clarity for things that interest you (or "bother" you to the point you understand it and it no longer bothers you). Do scientists and inventors get what they are looking for at their first try? No, they don't. They don't beat themselves up and give up. They analyze their findings and try a different approach. Why should regular people like us be any different?

You're absolutely right R46, thank-you for your kind post. I know I need to retrain my brain because I'm the only one who can stop me doing this. The comparison to an explorer is a good.

R30 - forgive me for being cynical but your situation is a perfect example of No Good Deed Goes Unpunished.

You stuck with the friendship out of a sense of duty and of pity (and not pity in a demeaning way - you genuinely felt bad for your bi-polar friend.). You were willing to suffer - or at least forgo fun for an unpleasant time - to benefit you friend. That is an admirable trait - and in your situation I may have done the same - I do think empathy is a quality work actively cultivating.

BUT - and there is often a but - the friend that you chose to sacrifice a bit of yourself for turned out not to be worth it - and not necessarily because of the bi-polar issues. Some people do not have empathy, are incredibly self-centered, or for them whatever you do is never enough. Your friend probably has all those traits to some degree.

The issue becomes - once we see that in someone we thought we knew well - how do we respond. You aren’t psychic and hindsight is 20/20 - you certainly may not have predicted that behavior because past situations with them didn’t bring it out, or bring it out so clearly.

Empathetic people often feel guilt over how others behave - and end up blaming themselves for not doing something differently. If you are beating yourself up over the whole situation - stop. Remember - when someone shows you who they really are, believe them.

Your friend ultimately didn’t deserve the kindnesses you went out of your way to bestow. Doesn’t mean you were wrong to do them - but now that you know more, move on. You don’t need this person in your life - because they chose to treat you in a very different fashion than you had chosen to treat them.

Forgiveness is overrated.

R17 I don't always agree with Oprah (I find her sanctimonious & phony), but here, I agree with her words, if not her motivations. I don't think she practices any of what she preaches. But I find I must forgive, especially for myself to move on from the hurts others have caused me. It can lay like a ton of bricks on your heart, and you end up more miserable than those who did you dirt and didn't feel the need to apologize.

I never forget when the hurts and betrayals have been too intense, but while I may either sever or lessen the relationship, I forgive because I know deep down the hurts I've caused which may have either lead to the betrayal or the circumstances which occurred leading up to it. If they apologize, I know they are attempting to be sincere, and that is something. If they didn't and I feel I have to sever the relationship, I forgive them in my heart and just move away from circumstances which would bring that hurt back.

Ultimately, you have to live with yourself, and vindictiveness can lead to revenge, and revenge never does anybody any good. I do reach into my spiritual realm and ask the God whom I believe in to guide me during those hard situations, because ultimately, I need to be happy, and holding onto anger does not create happiness.

Some really good posts regarding this subject matter. R29 makes some good observations as have the others. Accident vs intent is an absolutely valid consideration. We must not forget that sadists do exist - those who love to make horrible plans against others for the sick thrill of witnessing another's pain and anguish. They laugh and twist their mouths into a sick smile at the havoc they've wrought. This is true. Young gay people being bullied for being themselves can attest to the fact. Perfect example. Perhaps it just may be that the ones not so freely dishing out their forgiveness are also the ones who take the concept a great deal more seriously than others. Polite people cannot tolerate rudeness. Giving people cannot abide by greed, and on and on. Maybe it's the ones who would never so fervently seek the harm of another who are more reluctant to forgive. Personally, I can withhold forgiveness without it tearing me up inside as several posters have mentioned. For me, it's a simple matter of calculation and flow. Forgiveness minus genuine sorrow for the offense does not add up to harmony. I'm not the type to bull shit myself into thinking it does. There is a lot to consider, and the ones who are quick to forgive those don't value it are only fooling themselves. When someone hurts you and he is not sorry, that person will always be looking for justification to validate his offense. That non apologizing prick is now circling you like a vulture just waiting for the opportunity to self-satisfy: "I was right after all."

[quote] When someone hurts you and he is not sorry, that person will always be looking for justification to validate his offense. That non apologizing prick is now circling you like a vulture just waiting for the opportunity to self-satisfy: "I was right after all."

Why would you let someone that toxic be around you, especially when you are an adult (and not a child having to endure an authority figure's mental and physical torture)?

Because you've FORGIVEN that toxic person, R53. That's what we're discussing.

r54, forgiven does not mean that you take that person back into your life.

^ For many, it does. Especially those approaching from the religious perspective. "You must be willing to forgive your brother 70 times seven." Well SHIT! say I. I've just become your punching bag! NOT!

r56, to that I reply:

When I have left this planet and those left behind decide how they are going to remember me, I would rather be remembered as somebody who had the capability of forgiving than someone who was bitter, filled with hate for the world, and unable to see others around them or themselves as people capable of hurting others. I would like God to see that I tried my best to live without judgment, so when it comes time for my life to be judged, it is obvious that I did my best rather than hold onto emotions that in the scheme of things is truly insignificant when compared to the real hurts going on in our world. My issues with former friends is not as bad as what others are going through.

I will do my best to be polite to them if we run into each other even though we might no longer hang out. I've turned former friends who had the potential somehow to become bitter enemies into former friends who were basically now acquaintances, and sometimes they've even expressed regret years after the situation of what caused our friendship to turn sour. People do grow, believe it or not, although some adults remain childish in nature. We choose who we want to have close to us and who we keep at arm's length. If they were my friend at one point, there was a reason. Distant acquaintances I can cast off easily because there was never any emotion there. But if we shared secrets at one point, that feeling isn't going to vanish over night, even if the trust has dwindled.

R22, I wish you a lifetime of Oprah.

I wish for Oprah to sit on your face and fart platitudes.

May Oprah walk with you all the rest of your days.

Oprah is full of shit, literally and figuratively.

What a bunch of pantywaists there are here! And none of you are Sicilian obviously. We hold grudges not only for a lifetime, but take them to our coffins and then they become generational. Forgiveness is for suckers.

R50, give us some dirt about that big lunatic. I noticed someone started a Paglia subreddit but it's completely dead. They post links to articles but literally no one comments. Sad! I wonder how the self-proclaimed "first internet intellectual" feels about that.

R61, ever hear the definition of Irish Alzheimers?

You forget everything but the grudges.

This thread has given me much to think about. Thank you, DL.

R64 I hope it gives a lot of people things to think about. All joking and sarcasm aside, some of the cruel responses show the lack of souls and deeply embedded sadness of many people who write here. This ties in with another lengthy thread about why gay men are so mean to each other. I don't think anybody in the gay community can claim total innocence, especially if you've had to react in a nasty way to somebody else's negativity, just to get them away from you. It takes a lot of individual soul searching, and you have to be true to who you really are. Wounded animals will bite and not let go, and a wounded gay man, irregardless of age, will strike back if cornered in a way that threatens their pride or self image. I've grown not to care really about what the world thinks anymore, because we see on a daily basis that the world and its occupants get crueler each day.

When I go to bed, I often think if I ended my day with good karma, and sometimes I have to say not in the complete way I like. But it's the sin of "oops", I call it, and if I can forgive others in the same way I try to forgive myself, then I'm at least making an attempt to be better. That's all we can ask of each other at this point.

r65, I agree with all that you said. Thinking about all this forgiveness though has made me more cynical, especially in 2019. I see dishonorable behavior in my workplace, and in politics. If I truly forgive everyone, it seems like it gives license to those with no honor to continue doing bad things.

Some men will never apologize even when they know what they did was wrong. Especially when they are in the White House.

I personally found that going "no contact" was the answer to a lifetime of egregious behavior from a sibling. It has been almost 5 years and the relief and peace is still with me. Do some reading on narcissistic personality disorder and see if it might work for you.

True forgiveness means regaining trust, ie, opening yourself up to being hurt or harmed in the same way. To me, if someone refuses to apologise, they are effectively saying they see nothing wrong with their behaviour and would do it again given the chance. Or they are saying that they don't see you as being important enough to merit an apology from them.

But I agree with the poster above that some people demonstrate their contrition in other ways than in a verbal apology.

We also have to consider if someone is truly capable of realising what they have done wrong. For example, my cats have destroyed some things that were valuable and treasured, but because I loved them, I forgave them. On the other hand, I re-homed (sold, actually) my dog when I decided the positive aspects of our r'ship weren't worth the negatives.

Sometimes a verbal apology is insincere and a form of manipulation. I have apologised to a friend to restore a friendship because clearly an apology was wanted, but deep down, when I examined my behaviour, there wasn't anything I would have done differently given the chance.

An apology like 'I'm sorry you're upset' or 'i'm sorry you feel I've offended you is worthless.'

One also apologizes through action, which is more valuable than verbalization. Show me how much it eventually hurt you to find that you hurt me. Then, we'll talk....

No reason to forgive somebody who is not sorry.

Alcoholic brother-in-law stole four bottles of wine while making a hasty exit from my house two years ago. He's since gotten sober but has yet to even acknowledge it, much less make amends. I'd be more forgiving if he hadn't become a self-appointed spiritual guru upon leaving his alcohol treatment program. He's got it all figured out... except taking responsibility for his actions.

[quote] "I don't give second chances. I meet new people all the time and strike easy friendships or acquaintances. Anyone fucks up, their loss. —Anonymous"

I struggled to know where to start with this subject.

How does the person know when they have done something wrong? Surely, that is in the head of the person who feels aggrieved?

So if I knock my drink over someone, it it my fault for not holding the drink firmly enough. I would apologise and offer the person a drink in compensation.

But if the person is not aware that they have caused offence to the other person because of something they have said or done, what is that person supposed to do?

Surely it is for the person who feels aggrieved to articulate that grievance, but by doing so, isn't that a statement saying 'you did something wrong and you should apologise for that' Now the alleged wrongdoer can proffer an apology, but would that be accepted?

R74, I don't think it's fair to say that it's in people's heads. I think people are mainly talking about instances where the person knows, or really ought to realise, that they have done something wrong. If they don't realise but it is something important in a relationship then talking to them about it is a good idea but also a very difficult conversation to have, of course.

People who are close to us can be hurtful or even emotionally cruel, accidentally or on purpose for example, or there may resentments about things that happened in childhood that shouldn't have happened. I've had people apologise for things when I wasn't expecting it because they know that they did something wrong, even many years later, or people who should apologise but don't, and you have to weigh up whether it would be worth bringing it up and talking about it or just letting it lie.

Which doesn't mean that everyone will know when they have given offence, or that all offence taking is justified. But in the main I think we're talking about times when someone either knows, or ought to know, they did something wrong (ie. could be reasonably expected to if they reflected on their behaviour).

r74, trust in your own thoughts, feelings and emotions and deliberately ask yourself why you feel the way you do throughout the day. What makes you feel happy, exited, joyful? What makes you feel sad, angry, or frustrated? And why do you feel you have to do things that make you feel that way.

Trust that you can control your response to outside conditions. What can you learn from someone who doesn't apologize? When was the last time you apologized for something. Did it make the situation better? Was your apology accepted? Was your apology genuine - and did it get accepted anyway (does that make apologies less meaningful in your eyes) ? Did someone not apologize to you and you see him live a happy life anyway (does that make less meaningful to you?).

The only one you can work on is yourself. Everybody else has his own mind and agenda that very likely don't match your own.

[quote]Sometimes a verbal apology is insincere and a form of manipulation. I have apologised to a friend to restore a friendship because clearly an apology was wanted, but deep down, when I examined my behaviour, there wasn't anything I would have done differently given the chance.

So r69 basically admits that his apology was insincere and done to manipulate the other person. Not only that, but he'd actually do it again. Are you actually admitting that apologies are mostly worthless or trying to make another point?

An apology requires true contrition. True contrition requires three things: 1) recognition of what was done; 2) an understanding of why it was wrong; and 3) an intent not to engage in that activity again (because of #1 and #2). Anyone who would replicate the behavior again under the same circumstances is not sorry.

What many people don't recognize is that the majority of people are sorry because they got caught or have had to deal with unforeseen negative consequences (for them), not because they injured another person.

Sometimes people lie to make others feel better. You may not feel sorry, but you still say you are in order to make the other person fell better or get him, or her, off your back.

Sometimes no apology will do, made or unmade.

[quote]Sometimes people lie to make others feel better. You may not feel sorry, but you still say you are in order to make the other person fell better or get him, or her, off your back.

How very altruistic.

r80. It is more than you can hope for from a sociopath. If someone can't even bother phoning in an apology then that person can be safely considered toxic.

One thing I discovered about myself is that I'm very permissive.

R77...R78 hit on what I was saying. Sometimes people take offence or feel aggrieved when no offence was intended because of their own nature or they have interpreted your behaviour wrongly. So they are genuinely upset. So you apologise to make them feel better, move on, and maintain the relationship rather than justifying your behaviour which will only make them think you are discounting their feelings.

But obviously not all apologies are in that category.

If someone can’t admit they were wrong, can’t apologize - they have sociopathic tendencies.

Run like hell.

Forgive yourself for your poor judgement. Then stop hanging around people who fuck you over.

You are still torn because you think your ability to forgive can somehow control the other person and make them better. It can't. You need to deal with your issue of ignoring evidence. You need to deal with people as they are, not how you wish they would be.

Put more focus on yourself. Improve yourself. Stop using other people as a crutch.

The concept of forgiveness has its greatest teaching in the Christian bible via Jesus Christ. For context, we have to remember what life was like before, during, and since the time He walked the earth. For argument's sake, however, I will cite the time of His ministry. People were put to death for their offenses as a matter of course. If you lifted a finger to do any sort of work on the Sabbath, for example, you were a goner. Young ho cock gobbling non stop? Death, etc and on and on. My take?

Forgiveness = "Don't kill anybody"

Forgiveness is the act of letting go of a grudge and heavy baggage that severely burdens you. Like when people have to let go of their grief over someone who died or "could have / should have" regret. For us it's completely reasonable to wash ourselves or clean ourselves up when we are physically dirty. But a lot of us hold on to mental "dirt" like our lives depend on it and refuse to even attempt to clean our minds from all the negative shit that burdens us.

[quote]The concept of forgiveness has its greatest teaching in the Christian bible via Jesus Christ. For context, we have to remember what life was like before, during, and since the time He walked the earth. For argument's sake, however, I will cite the time of His ministry. People were put to death for their offenses as a matter of course. If you lifted a finger to do any sort of work on the Sabbath, for example, you were a goner. Young ho cock gobbling non stop? Death, etc and on and on.

Forgiveness, contrition, and absolution is a get out of jail free card played by xtians in order to be awful human beings throughout the majority of their lives, yet still claim their god's love and salvation.

As for your flawed interpretation of Jesus's teachings, I refer you to Acts 25:10-11:

[quote]"But Paul said, “I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know. 11 “If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar.”

I try to forgive people if not I pray for them and it really helps. If you have revenge in your heart, dig two graves.

[quote] Forgiveness, contrition, and absolution is a get out of jail free card played by xtians in order to be awful human beings throughout the majority of their lives, yet still claim their god's love and salvation.

At our core we are all benevolent creatures (otherwise humanity, as a whole, would not be able to feel emotions like regret and guilt for misguided actions).

What the Church is trying to pull is that, through absolution, you can feel high almighty (aka superior) again and judge others for being so called sinners who did far less than what you asked absolution for yourself.

Interesting analogy, R87

>>>At our core we are all benevolent creatures (otherwise humanity, as a whole, would not be able to feel emotions like regret and guilt for misguided actions).

That's one of the most profound and uplifting things I have ever read here.

"Forgiving the Dead Man Walking" is by the woman (Debbie Morris) who was kidnapped and raped by the subject (Robert Willie) of "Dead Man Walking." I read the book a long time ago. On the eve of Willie's execution, Morris realized that even after Willie was dead, she would still feel horrible. She decided to "forgive" him in her own way, i.e., it wasn't necessary for her to actually communicate forgiveness to him. The forgiveness was more for herself.

Real apologies are rare because most people rationalize what they have done and reinforce it with false memories. I had one friend who constantly pretended he was "miserable" when he lived with me and then issued a fake apology. I wish I could have played him back clips of how happy he was when we were together and how sour and miserable he'd been since, but it would have been pointless. He couldn't even offer an apology without trying to gaslight me to his own advantage, and I wouldn't be surprised if he repeated false mantras to himself every night to try to deliberately rewire his brain. He had taken a psych 101 course, so that's the kind of thing he would do

r95.

Some people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions and blame, in a passive aggressive way, others for their own actions. And then they wonder why-oh-why they are around so many toxic people, they have to fake apologize to, when it's clear as day that THEY (as in the toxic people) are the problem?

Yes, Sicilians are absolutely the model of how to behave in the world.

I have taken screenshots of three of the posts here, and valued many more!! This is exactly what I needed, I can't thank you guys enough for all of your wisdom and insight.

I think it's much more complex and difficult than Oprah and a lot of popular self-help specialists admit when they tell you you have to forgive people. You cannot just forgive someone with a snap of your fingers, and you also cannot excuse or abet injustice or cruelty. And I do not know how people ever forgive a cruel or sadistic parent or older family figure if the behavior was systematic and knowing.

I think the genuine part of what they're saying in their simplistic way is that ongoing resentment is often bred by narcissism. Most of the time when people hurt your feelings or wrong you, they do so out of a lot of reasons that often do not have a lot to do with you, and to nurse the resentment is to nurse your own sense of self-importance and self-righteousness. I have a good friend at work who is most of the time a lovely, funny person; but if she feels wronged, she becomes obsessive about it and loses all sense of proportion because she is very narcissistic. (She has never felt angry at me, but I have had to warn her--gently and kindly-- not to treat me like a dumping ground for her narcissistic rages.)

It's also possible to forgive but not forget, especially after you set clear boundaries. I had a good friend who had a crush on me, but I did not really realize it until we traveled together in Europe ten years ago. He behaved incredibly badly to me because he was afraid to act on his crush, and so he kept sniping at me, wouldn't let me have a key to the apartment we were sharing when we got to Athens, yelled at me for not doing things his way, etc. It got so abusive I had to split up from him and continue the second half of the trip on my own. A year after we returned he wanted to get together, and so i thought maybe he was going to apologize to me, but again he kept sniping at me at dinner and was generally abusive. I finally wrote him and told him we could no longer be friends--he was just too toxic. A week ago he contacted me about of the blue and wanted to get together for a drink ("It's been years, and I figured enough time has passed..."), but I knew he would just be up to the same old shit, and I told him I do not wish him ill (and I do not), but that I have no interest in ever being friends with him again, and I would prefer it if he would leave me alone. He wrote back and said he finally got the message and will leave me alone for good now. I am not angry with him,. but I do know that if we started hanging out again his obsession with me would flare up again (the fact that he contacted me out of the blue after nine years means he's likely STILL obsessed with me). I've forgiven him, but I have not forgotten.

FORGIVEN! And he didn't even have to ask for it! If anyone has a problem with it, then tell them IIIIII said so!

I really loved reading your post R65. Thank you.

A guy reneged on an agreement. He wants to work together again. I never say yes, I never say no. But I never have again because he hasn't apologized or explained himself. I always respond politely and noncommittally though and never ghost him.

Since most or much of the posters here are lesbian/gay, it's a safe bet that they have family members or close associates who require a lot of forgiveness for deep pain and harm they have caused. I'd like to hear how people have managed that, with or without acknowledgement or apologies.

There are certainly many levels of forgiveness. Do you forgive someone easily whom you don't know, let's say someone who responds to something you write here with a vicious intent, or do you just not care? (I'm of the later belief, as I do not know them, I don't know their motivation, and the cowardice of the internet does allow people to be more vicious with things they write that they may not say in person.) Do you forgive the stranger on the street too busy reading their phone who doesn't say sorry when they bump into you? Do you forgive your family for not accepting your sexuality or choice of a lover? Do you forgive a co-worker who shoved their work onto you or made mistakes that you had to spend time correcting them, and didn't thank you? So many more examples can be given in all areas.

I broke off with a boyfriend who constantly cheated who always begged me to forgive him then turned violent when I told him I couldn't trust him even though I forgave him. He screamed at me of abandoning him, but I knew he couldn't change and I didn't want to continue to deal with his hurting me. It took time for me to learn to forgive him, but I also couldn't allow myself to be guilt ridden & get back together with him. We are on opposite coasts now so I know I'll never see him again, but on occasion, I think of the good times and pray that he has changed or made necessary alterations. That's part of forgiveness too. I also lost a lover to HIV who had failed to tell me the truth, and I forgave him after he died and I knew the full story because I understood why he lied, that he felt I wouldn't want to be with him if I knew. (That wasn't anywhere near the truth; I'd give almost anything to have him back, HIV + or not.) People don't always lie out of nasty deception or an attempt to stay out of trouble, so I look at each situation differently.

When you learn to forgive, you open the door for all sorts of good things to come into your life. We are all judges in one way or another, right or wrong, so it is not up to us to judge someone for their own judgments which aren't always right, and knowing that human beings are basically messed up in all sorts of ways helps you to be able to forgive, because every situation has a circumstance that explains why people do the things they do, whether it is justified or not. The world is turning on the axis of rash decisions that weren't always the best one, and we just try to deal with the effects of those decisions the best way we can in a way that can make our own individual world move more smoothly.

I’m a pagan animist so the word ‘forgiveness’ does not figure anywhere in my ethical code as exemplified by the patron Gods and heroic ancestral figures. Neither do ‘sin’ & ‘penance’, for that matter. For people following my belief system, nothing is verboten provided you accept the probable consequence of whatever you are doing and know that if you bring scorn and wrath and ruin down upon your head you have only yourself to blame and not the mob surely coming for you.

It’s a decidedly Abrahamic idea to turn the other cheek or forget a slight or dishonor to one’s person, and that notion kept people like me weak and submissive as youths. I’m still fighting against a conditioned Protestant instinct to take abuse from others (starting with my father, ending with ?) with a benign smile and a forgiving attitude, and it’s deeply uncomfortable but I know that I have to strive to defeat the “it’s alright” urge if I want to walk in the path to which I’ve been summoned to walk.

R104, if you can forgive someone who knowingly exposed you to HIV and concealed it from you, you must truly be a saint.

R106 Not a saint, that's for sure, but I understood the motivations, the circumstances, and his insecurities. Plus the fact that he was one of the more compassionate people I've ever met made what could have been a very harmful lie to me easier to forgive. When I realized that he was probably not going to make it, I had to reach into my heart to forgive him so his soul could be free of guilt. As it turned out, I have remained HIV negative. As a spiritual person who believes in the basic concepts of Christianity, I wanted God to know where I stood as far as what he did and bore no malice to him. Years after his death, I still feel strongly about the power of forgiveness based upon that deception and everything that went along with it. I've dated men who admitted their HIV status right off, and they were far worse to deal with on a personal level than he was. I guess there is a power in love that outweighs the negative things which occur even in a relationship where things like this threatened to cause harm.

People mistake forgiveness as a pushover who lets the other one off the hook. But its actual benefit is that It's an act of "Whatever, I'm so over it!" dismissal.

R107, do you think you'd have been able to forgive him if you had contracted HIV as a result of his deception?

R109 Difficult to say, but based upon my memories of him I believe I could after perhaps some therapy and reflection about everything that transpired. I don't think that my situation is a reflection of how everyone should feel, because certainly, there have been people who lied about it for reasons different than his reason. Again, it wasn't just a trick or one night stand or brief affair, but something very serious. He was quite young when he passed away (44), so the bulk of my memories of him are him being very handsome and active and giving. We also lived far apart (but talked very often), so I did not see him regularly, perhaps every couple of months. I saw him just a couple of weeks before he passed away and it was very clear to me what the truth was.

When I left to go back home, I gave him a hug and kiss on the lips, which obviously shocked but delighted him, as if he realized that I knew the truth, and that I forgave him. In a sense, it was a cleansing for both of us, and opened up thoughts of a new future which didn't happen. It's difficult to express in words what happened so long ago even though I remember every detail of those final moments together. It's also consoling to me years later to be able to write about it in hopes of helping other people deal with the issues of forgiveness in spite of some pain and the difficulty in revealing deep thoughts in my own soul, even anonymously. But I would never be happy going on unless I had reached out to God at that time to ask for his grace in allowing him to transition from one world to the next. In that sense, he's become like a guardian angel to me and every so often, I do feel his presence, so for me, I know that something in how I reacted did work because he has let me know that he is at peace and not suffering.

A lot of people are afraid of revealing their true thoughts, even anonymously, because they don't want to be thought of as even slightly sentimental, as if that means weakness. If you are sentimental and able to accept that aspect of your personality, you are much stronger than those who hold everything in and end up bitter and angry, and ultimately unable to forgive even the slightest infraction.

Would love to hear more thoughts on this thread.

bump

If someone wrongs me and never apologises, I just abandon them from my life and move on without thinking of them again. That's the joy of not giving a fuck.

I can’t forgive my mother or her nephews for dealing with their sickness in the same house that I was having a breakdown in as a teen. I can’t let go of the idea that having to watch their graphic issues unfold without warning derailed my life path and left me with emotional scars that prevented me from succeeding in my work/studies/personal life. It’s been several years and I still get these inward flares and spikes of hatred when I look at or listen to my mother or grandmother or any member of that side of her family. It’s one of those awful WASPy UMC families too so they make it near-impossible to go NC. I can’t turn to my Dad either because he’s a creep and has a lot of his own unresolved PTSD that he refuses to acknowledge or address. I want to emigrate or even move state but I can’t afford it and anyway my mother & my sister would hunt me down (they’re the type). What can I do to stop factoring them in to my adult life mindset and decisions? I just want to not care about or consider them anymore and get rid of their noxious influence over my entire being.

What I really can't understand is the utter presumptuousness of those who forgive those who who have caused death to their loved ones.

The most annoying apologies are when people say I'm sorry, I don't understand why you are mad but I'm sorry. Or stuff of that type. It is like they apologize but don't accept any responsibility. Those are the punch and delete people.

I have been able to forgive when the offense was not intentional and/or malicious. When the offenders are true assholes or sadistic sons of bitches I punch and delete, no forgiveness necessary, though it does take some time and distance for the feelings of rage to disappear.

My siblings have been cruel to me my entire life, though I believe our parents unknowingly set the stage for that. I have chosen to forgive them, but I will never forget, nor will I ever trust them.

I have a sister who has treated me badly over the years, lashing out verbally when she couldn't manage her own feelings and other things, Like you R118 I've moved on from it but I can't forget, and I would never properly trust her again, particularly not with personal information.

[quote]Some men will never apologize even when they know what they did was wrong. Especially when they are in the White House. - Stormy Daniels

Some woman will never shut up even when its there profession and you pay them $100,000 to do so.

My boss has never apologized to anyone from her husband to her kids . So woman are just as bad as men. Trust me on that one, because I have seen a lot of shit she has done to fuck up her kids and yes she is divorced and wants all his money. She was the cheater by the way. But somehow she is the victim.

I don't really understand the idea that "forgiveness" is something you give someone else and that somehow that is a great reward for you. I think this is where religious nonsense mingles with self-help nonsense producing more nonsense.

To me, forgiveness is something you do to yourself, for yourself. It's about accepting your imperfections, learning from your mistakes and humbling yourself (toning down the ego). This process can include making amends, offering an apology to others. Whether the apology is accepted or "forgiveness" is offered, is another thing.

The key thing here is: who has the power? You should never place yourself in a position where others have power over you - including the power to forgive you. That power exists within yourself and should inform your behaviour and how you live your life going forward. Offering an apology is acknowledging your behaviour and your remorse for the way you behaved. But people shouldn't expect 2nd chances. Go forward and treat people better. Don't expect the people you've wronged to overlook that or somehow trust you - trust is earned.

People have this superficial approach to things like "forgiveness" as a way of deflecting what has actually happened - it's an acceptable exchange to say "I'm sorry" and have someone say "I forgive you" but how often is that exchange actually earned?

I don't really do forgiveness, where other people are concerned. Beyond the above, I have little practical understanding of it. I empathise with others, I recognise their humanity, their experience or lack of experience, I look kindly on others. But for the small handful of people who have truly done me wrong - I wouldn't have anything to do with them. I don't hold grudges but it's up to them to be at peace with themselves and their behaviour. I don't want anything to do with them.

Interesting to note, that three of the four people within that handful were family.

[quote] I wouldn't have anything to do with them. I don't hold grudges but it's up to them to be at peace with themselves and their behaviour. I don't want anything to do with them

Thant sounds like a grudge to me. People mess up, no one is perfect but it sounds like its all or nothing with you. Black and white no shade of grey. Anyway, you are really missing the point with your diatribe. When you forgive someone else, you let go of thinking about the hurt they did to you. Maybe its not a full on grudge, but its still a wound. Forgiving others lets you move on and the wound to heel. Otherwise you are going to end up isolated never forgiving people who in your opinion did something wrong to you because eventually everyone fucks up. In fact you basically did just that with your own admission of cutting off your family members.

It depends. I know a person who just doesn’t have it in him to apologize no matter how terrible a thing he has done. I have to ask myself, do I love him enough to accept that flaw? That’s the question you always have to ask.

You don't know what went on in R122's family R123 so you really can't make a judgement that they 'fucked up' by cutting off family members. Families can commit abuses and terrible betrayals on each other and I dislike the assumption that we should always and forever forgive family member just because they're family, and that if we don't then we've done something wrong.

I've never cut off a family member, but I've also been lucky enough to never have been wronged enough by a family member to need to cut them off. I agree that it is much bigger deal to walk away from family than from friends, but cutting family off can also be the most healthy thing to do if it is truly necessary.

Has anyone managed to forgive themselves for missed opportunities & wasted time?

I’ve spent several years of my prime wallowing in stagnation and depression, and my dream girl and career got away because of it. I’m feeling strong enough now to function (basically live and work) through the guilt and regret but don’t know how to release and forget it to move on. Has anyone else done this, and if so how? It

Welcome to middle age R126. Most people didn't become what they wanted. That's more a fantasy for the vast majority of society. Only a handful ever get that. We all make mistakes, sometimes they last decades. The good news is you still have time to do something with your life. Maybe not a Hollywood movie start but did you really have a chance at that anyway? Set new goals from who you are right now and let go of the past. Lamenting over the past only holds you back from the future. So you will fuck up twice if you don't learn to forgive and forget. You don't have time. Think of it as a chapter in a book, time to stop rereading the same old chapter and move on to a new one in your life story.

Astute advice, R127

For posts R126 and down: I achieved something in life that I see a lot of people missing out on. I follow my passions. Too many people are stuck in a career rut, a job they hate and do either because they believe there's nothing better out there for them, they love the money but hate the grind, and they end up working far too many hours a week with nothing but backaches and depression to show for it. Their hard earned money goes to their therapists, their doctors, their bartenders. There is nothing wrong with working hard and making sure that your physical health keeps you able to perform your needed tasks, but a work/life balance is very important in order to have a very full life. This is when people become angry with themselves and regret their decisions.

I enjoy my life because I call the shots, keep people at a distance who try to bring me down for focusing on what I want to get out of life. If I didn't, I would die regretting it. We allow others to push us in directions we do not want to go into but find ourselves stuck with no other choice. Don't take that promotion if you really don't want it. Don't go on that vacation with somebody who is going to piss and moan all the time. Take the time to go to the theater or concert or for that walk in the park or sit back and become nostalgic with an old TV series you loved in your childhood or something that a true friend recommends passionately. I turned down promotions with promise of more money and increased responsibility, and while it sounded grand on the surface, I could see the depression on the faces of those who took higher paying positions and ended up giving away their life because of it. There is nothing selfish in living for yourself if you know that the strengths you gain from that can be used to help others learn similar lessons.

Hell no...

Off topic, but Jessica Walter could play Judge Judy, in R16 gif... just sayin' ...