DL: Tell me about German cities

Frankfurt is more like New York than Berlin. I find it a boring city.

Munich is lovely. Lots of gay bars and culture.

Consider going to Cologne if you have time. Its only 1.15 hrs away from Frankfurt. Much prettier and gayer.

Nuremberg is all about Hitler's rallies and Christmas market. Not been there in years.

I can't answer your questions, OP, but I am curious to read what others have to say. I was in Berlin in the 80s for work. I was able to go behind the iron curtain and that was really cool.

I just finished booking the Germany part of a trip to Europe. We will be in Germany in June, focusing on the southern part of the country.

Munich - 6 nights Mittenwald - 3 nights Fussen - 3 nights Konstanz -2 nights Freiburg - 2 nights Rottenburg Ob Der Tauber - 2 nights Munich -1 night Hamburg - 2 nights then cruise to NYC (out of Hamburg) and arrive on gay pride day!

R3 is doing Bavaria by the sounds of it. Very pretty.

I want to go to Heppenheim too -- it looks delightful!

The towns along the Rhein are pretty.

Go and have a look at Heidelberg.

r5 Ooh, that looks so cosy, I reflexively grabbed the nearest mug and started cradling it. Though I wonder if it's changed much in the fourteen years since that photo was taken.

Not much x

I had an interesting conversation with a German citizen while I was traveling between Cologne and Bonn one time. I asked him why the Germans had rebuilt their cities, which were utterly flattened during the bombings at the end of WWII, to look just as they did before. I said Americans would have just taken the opportunity to build completely new architecture which wouldn't have looked anything like what was there before. He looked at me sadly and said, "because this was our home and we wouldn't have recognized it or known how to get around in it if everything was new and unfamiliar". That actually made a lot of sense to me, because of course you know to turn the corner when you see the church with the red tower in front of you and that sort of thing. I guess my point is that if you scratch below the surface of a lot of those charming medieval buildings with their half-timbering and red tile roofs, you will find 1950s concrete and cement.

R9 is right.

Heidelberg actually did escape WW2 bombings. Frankfurt otoh, did not. Though it's not as if the entire place was levelled, just the medieval area in the middle of the city. If you walk a half mile away most of the other architecture from the last few centuries is intact. It just varies from city to city, since the bombings were all targeted.

The interesting thing about the Frankfurt reconstruction is that they had most of the medieval building plans still, some squirreled away in the basements! So it was done as authentically as possible. The end result really is beautiful, anyway.

R9, there are still a lot medieval buildings that were left untouched by the bombings, especially in smaller towns. So, you'll still find buildings dating back to the 12th century or older.

I live in Mainz, so ask away. It's an old city (built by the Romans in 16 BC, I think; it was the Roman capital of the province Germania Superior back then) but large parts had to be rebuilt after the war. It was very important in the Middle Ages, since the archbishops of Mainz were powerful and rich landowners. Mainz's biggest claims for fame was Johannes Gutenberg though, the inventor of the modern printing press.

Anyway Frankfurt is sort of boring, like someone mentioned above. Like a more genteel version of Chicago. It also caters a bit too much to foreign businessmen, there are "English Pubs" and the like all over the place.

What is the Gutenberg Museum like, r13? It's the main reason I want to visit Mainz.

Cologne has a big leather scene.

Frankfurt should be visited but having done so I never need to visit it again, save for the airport.

Munich is charmant.

Berlin is New York-y in that it feels somewhat American but without the puritanism and it does have a certain electric energy.

I want to know about Hamburg.

I loved Munich when I visited in the late 90s. Good restaurants, good transit system.

Being able to speak some German will help a bit. About 70% of the time, when I spoke German to a local, the reply came in English. But there are plenty of clerks and waitresses to deal with in German. I did find one greengrocer whose German was unintelligible to me, I don't know whether it was dialect or accent. I had to hold out a handful of coins to let him take payment.

Frankfurt is the financial center of Germany, FWIW.

R16 was you there at Leatherfest or something.

Whenever i've been in Cologne, its been twink central.

R9 Your post doesn't make much sense because most of the destroyed buildings in Germany weren't rebuilt but were replaced with modern monstrosities. Just look at Frankfurt - before the war it had the largest preserved medieval town centre in the world, which was entirely destroyed during air raids. Only a handful of buildings on the main square were rebuilt.

Nuremberg is another example - only the churches and a few important historical buildings were rebuilt but the rest of the old town centre is now filled with ugly post-war architecture. Here are two before and after examples from Nuremberg - you can see for yourself what they decided to replace those two gorgeous Renaissance townhouses with.

Dusseldorf was a real surprise for me. I only went there because I'm a Kraftwerk fan and I wanted a photo outside the old Kling Klang studios. The city centre is High Victorian, with artificial lakes and canals, grand public gardens and high end retail in impressive victorian buildings on wide boulevards. I'd always thought it was a gritty industrial town, kinda the Akron of Germany. Later on I found it described in a travel guide as "Germany's poshest town" and that's a pretty good description.

[quote]Frankfurt - before the war it had the largest preserved medieval town centre in the world, which was entirely destroyed during air raids. Only a handful of buildings on the main square were rebuilt.

Yes, but Frankfurt is well underway towards rebuilding its Old Town into a more original appearing area with new facades applied to existing buildings. Sure, it'll be as authentic as the castle at Disneyland, but it's better than what was there.

I've said this in several Germany threads, but Frankfurt deserves more credit than it gets. Most people only see the area around the train station and the business district and assume it has all the charm of the Chicago Loop, but if you wander outside that central zone it's a very livable city with lots of parks and green areas, great neighborhoods, lots of college students, and a large foreign population that gives it a character you won't find in many other German cities.

Heidelberg will be worth every minute you can spare getting there and staying there.

southern germany is full of some of the fattest men on the planet who speak low brow deutsch. Avoid it if you can.

R20 I like Dusseldorf. Carnival is fun. Sweets everywhere. Alt beer being drunk. I really like shopping there.

R9. If you look under the buildings, you will largely find traditional architecture. Even today, when Germans build homes - they follow the same methods, when they can, they’ve used for a thousand years. There’s a sense of tradition and pride in Germany. It means something to have saved enough to build your home. Look, the american style mortgage is nonexistent in Germany. Germans don’t go into debt for a home. They save with something called a “hypotheke”.

This is a linear annuity mortgage which can really be complicated, but as I recall it you’d save about 50% of your projected home value in a pretty aggressive savings account which would take you about 20 years. The remaining balance you’d link to an investment/annuity account that you’d pay into that reduced the debt over the life of the loan. You’d have no debt at the end with a substantial savings and 100% equity.

I probably misremember this as I was trying to look interested as a sweet young thing when dating a hot german guy who was building a house.

German men were obsessed with their schraenke. Get your mind out of the gutter. That’s wardrobes, storage units. German houses don’t have closets so they put a lot of thought into armoires and storage. You might start out with some simple pressboard units like I did from a department store, which are delivered and installed. But, over the years you’ll upgrade to custom made high end units. That’s a point of pride for a German: quality, hand made.

If you’re invited to a German’s home - be sure to notice the woodwork and cabinetry. It’s a big deal.

Almost every German city has a large central square with radial streets connecting to more squares. In Munich, there’s Marienplatz which is adjacent to Sendlinger Tor which is by the Hauptbahnhof (Main Train Station). It’s quite walkable as most German cities have large pedestrian only zones, excellent streetcar and subway networks . Getting around is a delight.

Each city has tremendous green spaces and parks, usually adjacent to the rivers. No matter where you go in Germany, you’ll find well manicured parks, walkways, and outdoor spaces unlike anything you’ve seen in the US.

If you’re a gardener, I’ll *emphatically* encourage you to go to Mainau which is in southwestern Germany on Lake Constance. It’s a unique and pretty amazing place that’s most similar to Victoria, Vancouver Island, British Columbia.

[quote]Munich - 6 nights Mittenwald - 3 nights Fussen - 3 nights Konstanz -2 nights Freiburg - 2 nights Rottenburg Ob Der Tauber - 2 nights Munich -1 night Hamburg - 2 nights then cruise to NYC (out of Hamburg) and arrive on gay pride day!

Sounds like fun, but you might consider cutting Rothenburg Ob Der Tauber down to one night and spend 2 in Munich instead. Rothenburg is a nice half day, one day tops.

If you like the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, you'll love The Deutsches Museum in Munich.

I really like Berlin for the history. Strangely enough the central part was rebuilt by the East Germans based on the 18th century blueprints.

None of the East German architecture remains though, which was the tackiest kitsch imaginable. But there are two good DDR museums in Berlin that highlight the freaky East German interior design.

R27. Aw, none of the Hoeneckerhaeuser? Shucks. I really thought that brutalist stuff was going to be a real thing!

Oh wait. You can see it in DC.

Thank you r26. I forgot to hit the space bar twice to creat a list si it's hard to read; our first stop is six nights in Munich, then we will rent a car and return it after Rothenburg. We will then spend one last night in Munich before taking a train to Hamburg.

The hotel we are staying at the first six nights in Munich is right by that museum, and I have been planning to spend a day there. I spent my career in IT and my father was an engineer so I am very interested in that museum. Thank you for pointing it out.

Berlin has a memorial in the park featuring the first two Soviet tanks that arrived in April 1945.

A city with ghosts.

Munich interesting city. The original HaufBrau House, 2nd fl was site of orig AH/Nazi organizational meetings - across the alley is located A popular chain restaurant that has painted, at 2nd story eye level, “To Serve All is to LOVE ALL.” 10yrs ago a neat rebuttal. Munich art museum/old art museum is gorgeous - again spoils of war.

I love Frankfurt, it is an easy walking city. Schindler, of Schindlers List fame, has a plague marking his final apartment over looking the train station. Quite remarkable to see this. Great Humanitarian. There is also a Jewish Cemetary that is worth seeing, one of the few left partially intact. You can find markers of all the citizens deported, including Anne Frank and her entire family - all from Frankfurt.

Berlin is amazing, so much history East & West, checkpoint Charlie, lots of LGBT establishments.

The country side in the Rhine River area is breathtaking - a river “castle cruise” is nearly mandatory. The vineyards and WINE WINE WINE is everything. Train trips are eye openning, the country is so large, open rural. Take a sleeper train from Frankfurt to anywhere. The gardens are beautiful though not this time of year. Have fun, I envy you.

R25 and R31, loved reading your posts.

If I could afford it I would buy an apartment in Berlin. I've been to Berlin a couple of times. It's one of those big cities where one does not feel like a tourist. The one thing that I remember distinctly is bicycles effortlessly sharing the road with cars.

Im confused by the “rebuilt exactly the same” myth too. Most every place looked like bland postwar architecture in Düsseldorf, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg. That’s why I never liked most of Germany - except Munich. Cities filled with some of the ugliest postwar architecture in Europe. At least London still has a lot preserved historical buildings despite the bombing. Berlin is the prototypical German city to me - ugly and bland with maybe 5% interesting old buildings. But fun and raunchy and clean.

R33. The urban cores, especially the Ruhrgebiet (Ruhr River Industrial Sector) were wholly destroyed. What was built during the 1950s and later were mostly apartment buildings and condos, which is what you see in the city centers.

As you get out of the city center and cross the river into the actual neighborhoods are the more traditional houses. I share your antipathy for Frankfurt.

I know a little German.

Frankfurt after the war. The medieval city center was obliterated, probably with incendiaries.

Bremen was bombed heavily and reconstructed. It's an attractive small city. The houses and apts outside the center are art nouveau, very lovely.

R33. You did put me in mind of Erica Jong’s running commentary in “Fear of Flying” regarding German art and architecture. Her character disliked both seriously observing that German toilets provided a platform onto which fecal matter perched for you to admire until you stood, turned and flushed.

Therefore, Germans having had their own shit to love never developed art nor architecture.

R37 Bremen was only partially reconstructed. For instance, there's an unbelievably ugly glass building dating from the 70s on the main square there, right in front of the cathedral. I can't believe they haven't pulled that thing down yet or at least given it a facelift because it's a total eyesore.

One of the few bombed out cities that was entirely reconstructed back to its pre-war appearance was Rothenburg ob der Tauber. It looks so pretty today that many people think it escaped damage during the war but this is what it looked liked in 1945:

And here's that unfortunately-placed hideous glass building in Bremen I was talking about.

[quote]Frankfurt after the war. The medieval city center was obliterated, probably with incendiaries.

Frankfurt escaped a lot of damage for most of the war (Fun fact: they held their annual road race through the city the same weekend Dresden was fire bombed into rubble), but when it was finally targeted they hit it with a gusto.

One building they specifically avoided bombing was the giant IG Farben (of Zyklon B gas fame) building, because Eisenhower had already picked it to be the postwar military headquarters for all of Germany. Good news, because they also spared the quaint Paternoster Elevators, and it's open to the public so you can still ride them today!

Paternoster at link:

Hamburg is great place, but for me it took several days to get comfortable wth it. My problem is that there is always a large body of water between wherever you are and wherever you want to be, and the public transportation is not very user friendly for someone who doesn't already know the geography of the city and speaks fluent German (a common problem with almost all German systems).

Frankfurt has many wonderful qualities. First, the Berger Strasse shopping district is a hip boutique-y walking street. The Museum Row on the Main River is fantastic, including the installation museum in the middle of one of the bridges crossing the Main. The Frankfurt Sud (Southern district south of the Main and Museum Row has many beautiful buildings and, again, lovely shopping streets, plural. The central business district pedestrian street is kind of boring but you can get stuff you need easily. The Turm district has interesting cafes and the American hotel, plus a huge cinema with OV (English dubbed sub-titles for some of the films). The West side has lovely homes and borders onto the BuchMesse section. The Welle is a lovely pedestrian path through the business district. There are also lovely museums north of the Main River. The Jewish museum is one, right on the river. There is also an archaeological dig under one of the administrative buildings, right next to the Jewish cemetery discussed above, with the foundations of the original ghetto, plus a small exhibit space, and be sure to check out the visual arts gallery across the glass bridge that allows you to walk over the foundation walls. The re-constructed medieval area is fine, especially if you go during Christmas Markt when it is used in a traditional way. The tall bank buildings near the Opera House are impressive. Every two years the Lumanire Festival lights up the various tops of several downtown buildings as an architectural festival. If you take the U-bahn north, you can get to what were former outlying towns that are now incororated into the city, such as Ginnheim, where you can walk to the river and walk or bike along the riverpath for miles, where there are some Roman ruins. If you go even further, you can get to the forest district, the Taunus, where Bad Vilbel and other wealthy towns are interesting for shopping and charm. Wiesbaden is nearby and is a wealth of lovely older architecture, plus the opera house which presents wonderful performances. If you want to get to Darmstadt, south of Frankfurt, by U and S-bahn, you can visit the Marienhofer, which is a wealth of Art Nouveau and is a great crafts museum.

Frankfurt has many wonderful qualities. First, the Berger Strasse shopping district is a hip boutique-y walking street. The Museum Row on the Main River is fantastic, including the installation museum in the middle of one of the bridges crossing the Main. The Frankfurt Sud (Southern district south of the Main and Museum Row has many beautiful buildings and, again, lovely shopping streets, plural. The central business district pedestrian street is kind of boring but you can get stuff you need easily. The Turm district has interesting cafes and the American hotel, plus a huge cinema with OV (English dubbed sub-titles for some of the films). The West side has lovely homes and borders onto the BuchMesse section. The Welle is a lovely pedestrian path through the business district. There are also lovely museums north of the Main River. The Jewish museum is one, right on the river. There is also an archaeological dig under one of the administrative buildings, right next to the Jewish cemetery discussed above, with the foundations of the original ghetto, plus a small exhibit space, and be sure to check out the visual arts gallery across the glass bridge that allows you to walk over the foundation walls. The re-constructed medieval area is fine, especially if you go during Christmas Markt when it is used in a traditional way. The tall bank buildings near the Opera House are impressive. Every two years the Lumanire Festival lights up the various tops of several downtown buildings as an architectural festival. If you take the U-bahn north, you can get to what were former outlying towns that are now incororated into the city, such as Ginnheim, where you can walk to the river and walk or bike along the riverpath for miles, where there are some Roman ruins. If you go even further, you can get to the forest district, the Taunus, where Bad Vilbel and other wealthy towns are interesting for shopping and charm. Wiesbaden is nearby and is a wealth of lovely older architecture, plus the opera house which presents wonderful performances. If you want to get to Darmstadt, south of Frankfurt, by U and S-bahn, you can visit the Marienhofer, which is a wealth of Art Nouveau and is a great crafts museum.

R39/r40, I don't remember that glass building at all, are you sure it was built in the 70s?

[quote]German toilets provided a platform onto which fecal matter perched for you to admire

It was explained to me that this was for obsessive frauen to check constantly on their children's health

R29, there are direct connections in exhibit technique and operation style that flow from the Deutsches Museum through the Museum of Science and Industry to OMSI, first in its Washington Park location and then its current site on the river.

R25 i always admire German men's woodwork!

R45 I googled what exactly that building is - it's the parliament of the state of Bremen, built in 1966.

I will be going soon for a visit. Any word on Weimar? I am planning to be there for a 2 day visit. Should I extend it to more? I will also be in Dresden, Leipzig, and Berlin. My dad the Wagner fan, wants me to hit Bayreuth. It's a small town like Weimar. Is two days enough? Any advice is welcome.

I've always had great sex in Cologne.

R41 Thanks for your post. One indelible memory of my childhood was visiting the IG Farben building and seeing those elevators. ( Father was US military) Scary and exciting for a five/six year old to jump on and off a moving platform. I remember thinking the platform must flip upside down when it reached the top. Quite the logic puzzle for young me. i described those elevators years later and everyone assumed I was making it up!

Weimar is small but packed with things to see. Give it two days at least, you may even add a third if you're a fan of Goethe and especially Schiller.

Thank you R53. I will be in Weimar for the literary and musical connections.

Thanks r49. Don't know how I could forget seeing it. Spent a lot of time there years ago. To this day, the smell of roasting coffee reminds me of Bremen.

Are there any hidden gems to be found in the Former East? I've been to Germany dozens of times, but I'm ashamed to admit that other than E. Berlin I've never spent any time in what used to be the DDR. What am I missing?

R56,you are missing a lot! I love the former East Germany. The Baltic coast is lovely, particularly the Fischland-Darß-Zingst peninsula. The Island of Rügen also has some lovely seaside towns. Potsdam has a park ringed by royal residences, but you will want to see the Russian Village and the old Dutch quarter. Dresden is a Jewel. I have learned to love Leipzig after attending numerous trade fairs there. . If you want to get out into nature, the Hartz Mountains are magnificent. Schwerin Castle rivals Neuschwanstein.

I heard Dresden was completely rebuilt to look like the old city that was bombed to pieces in WW2. Is it still worth seeing? Seems a little Disneyland-like.

R58 It certainly is worth seeing - the rebuilt Frauenkirche will knock your socks off. But they actully threw quite a few totally modern-looking buildings in those blocks they rebuilt, probably to avoid the Disneyland comparisons.

The freshly built Frauenkirche is now pearly white but in time the sandstone it's made of will turn totally black. That's why it's fun seeing it now, when you can easily spot the darkened stones and pieces from the original church they included into the new building.

Thanks R59. It’s the closest German city to Prague I think - so have always wondered about a side trip there but wasn’t sure it was worthwhile.

I wouldnt bother going back to Berlin. Went a few times but it really is most interesting for 25-35 year olds who can stay out late and are into sexual exploration. Architecturally blah bordering ugly in large part. Prague - despite being a tourist trap - is so much prettier and appropriate for a 49 year old gay man.

R58, Dresden was firebombed. Consequently, a lot of the buildings survived as shells. The exteriors remained intact. Also, while there was some Soviet modernist buildings, the East German Government did restore a great many of the historic buildings, which was unusual. The restored Opera House is amazing and it is even more amazing that it was done during the DDR period. Since the wall fell, many of the DDR times apartment blocks have been demolished and replace with new construction that referenced the old architecture, but is not strictly a copy of it.

What else is interesting is that while excavating for the new construction, they often find fragments that are then incorporated into the new building. Not necessarily in the facade. They may have been used in the lobby or even the underground garage.

R60, I agree about Berlin. My partner and I stay in Potsdam and take day trips in to go to the opera or theater.