Mary Tyler Moore was miscast in Ordinary People

Elizabeth Taylor - Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf

Barbra Streisand - The Owl and the Pussycat

Glenn Close - Fatal Attraction

Christina Bale-American Psycho

^Christian

I'm dead but I still got an Oscar.

Seeing the title of this thread in the sidebar almost gave me a heart attack.

I clicked on it, ready to be all OH HELL NO, WE ARE NOT DOING THIS before I read the context.

Proves the point you went on to make, OP.

Mary Tyler Moore was perfectly cast.

Kirstie Alley in Cheers. Nobody thought she could be funny. She went on to score numerous Emmy nods and won...

Then nobody thought she could be dramatic. Until she blew everybody away in David's Mother and won her second Emmy.

Timmy didn't win, and he was the only one I cared about, so I let you all watch it for me. I'll see what video clips there are to see over the next few days. It was such a disappointing year for movies.

^ Not one of the Lily Rose girls, btw. I block all of Timmy's Datalounge threads, in fact.

I am Iron Man!

- RDJ

Buck would NEVER have suggested this.

MTM was perfect in Ordinary People.

Cher in Mask.

ORDINARY PEOPLE was miscast as well-received.

McBongo in that AIDS film

Ann-Margret in "Carnal Knowledge ".

[quote]McBongo in that AIDS film

I thought he was awful in this, he over acts in everything. Annoying guy, on screen and off!

Good one, r18.

Kevin Spacey in "The Club Car"

Shirley Jones in Elmer Gantry

Julie Andrews in the movie where she reveals her fun bags

Terrance Stamp , Guy Pearce, and Hugo Weaving - all 3 were cast very much against type in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert...

Cher in Silkwood, r15.

Farrah Fawcett changed everything for herself with The Burning Bed.

Michael Douglas.

Brain Cranston of "Malcolm in the middle" dufus father fame, OWNS this thread with his performance as Walter White/Heisenberg in "Breaking bad."

*Brian

Burt Reynolds in Deliverance.

Michael Keaton in Clean and Sober.

R26/R27 Try again, sweetheart.

BRYAN Cranston.

Ann-Margret was Redford’s first choice and would most likely have won the Oscar, unlike MTM. Too bad.

Tom Cruise - Interview with a Vampire - even the author, Anne Rice, initially hated his casting until she saw him in the movie, then she loved him in the role.

Hillary Swank - Boys Don't Cry - She won her first Best Actress Oscar for this role. Prior to that, she didn't have much of a TV or movie career and had been doing Beverly Hills 9010 a year before BDC's release.

John Travolta - Pulp Fiction - it reinvigorated his career (for a while) and he received a Best Actor Oscar nom. for his role

Ann-Margret was not Redford's first choice.

MTM was his first choice.

Redford's final three were MTM, Lee Remick and Ann-Margret.

Leslie Nielsen in "Airplane! "

Lee Remick would have worked. Ann-Margret would have done a fine job. But Mary was so unexpected - that's the key.

Probably one no one will remember, but...

Dick Powell was a fresh-faced singing boy wonder who played the same gee-whiz roles in a million movies in the 30s/40s, until he played cynical hard-boiled detectives in film noir like Farewell, My Lovely. Totally changed his image.

R18 Yes! Perfect choice.

R23, R15....

Actually, it might have been Come Back to the Five and Dime which preceded and probably led to those two performances.

R26 I don't know if Cranston owns this thread, but he certainly retains equal partnership with MTM and perhaps Liz Taylor.

Miss Tammy in Magnolia. He had done so much commercial crap that his turn in Mgnolia was a refreshing departure from the popcorn film fare he had done for years.

Sally Field -Sybil

Joanna Lumley - AbFab, just when her career was set to dry up, having to depend on her fading sex appeal, she proved she was a highly skilled comedic actress.

R37, I remember when I went to see Mask at a theater in Florida. When Cher's name came up in the opening credits the audience started laughing. By the end of the movie when Rocky died and Cher was tearing up the house everyone was crying.

R29, whatever.

Lucille Ball in Stone Pillow

^^ I don't necessarily think it changed her career, more like ended it! Ha!

Why is “Ordinary People” discussed here so much? In the real world it’s a very obscure movie most people don’t remember. Yet on Datalounge there’s at least six threads a week. Also how does this change the trajectory of her career if it’s the only movie she’s ever known for? It’s not like she had a great career after this in movies.

Carol Burnett Friendly Fire

James Spader in Sex lies and videotape...

Went from perennial douchebag in very commercial movies to acclaimed actor in artsy films...

Elizabeth Montgomery - A Case of Rape

Linda Lovelace : Deep Throat

Second Leslie Nielsen.

[quote]r13 Buck would NEVER have suggested this.

I also feel, obviously, that Buck would never have been miscast.

R26/R42 Don't whatever R29. Would you appreciate it if someone spelled your name "Phatty McGew" instead of the correct way?

Conrad would have posted r45.

R47, I’ll see you a James Spader and raise you an Andie MacDowell! When Steven Soderberg’s brother told me he was making a movie in NOLA with her I was appalled. She had done such a bad job in the Tarzan movie that they had to dub her voice with none other that DL favorite Glenn Close just to make it palatable. All the good will Jessica Lange had mustered of models crossing over to acting evaporated.

Then those opening lines: “Garbage. All I’ve been thinking about all week is garbage. I mean, I just can’t stop thinking about it.” Launched a whole new career for her that I don’t think she ever would ever have had before.

[quote]r54 [R47], I’ll see you a James Spader and raise you an Andie MacDowell! When Steven Soderberg’s brother told me he was making a movie in NOLA with her I was appalled. She had done such a bad job in the Tarzan movie that they had to dub her voice with none other that DL favorite Glenn Close just to make it palatable. All the good will Jessica Lange had mustered of models crossing over to acting evaporated.

Reportedly, that role was originally written with Elizabeth McGovern in mind.

MacDowell's performance isn't bad at all ... her voice was dubbed because her southern accent didn't mesh with the Victorian setting.

Pauline Kael called her "unconscionably beautiful," and said something along the lines of her giving a "classically romantic" performance.

"Don't whatever [R29]."

Who's gonna stop me r52? Sure as hell not you.

Complete change of trajectory doesn't happen, but some shifts in career:

Charlize in Mons

Borgnine in Marty

Sinatra in From Here to Eternity

Hepburn in Philadelphia Story

Sally Field in Sybil and Norma Ray. Her career had consisted of TV movies and playing likable characters on TV series prior to then.

Mia Farrow in Rosemary's Baby. She did not have much of a filmography prior to then and was best known for her role in the TV series Peyton Place.

Wes Bentley in American Beauty. His first major role for which he received very positive reviews.

I also agree with Leslie Nielsen. People under a certain age all see him as a comedian, but when "Airplane!" came out Nielsen was known for playing stiff, establishment types, quite often villains. So, when I was a kid and saw "Airplane!" when it opened, having this oh-so-serious character actor doing broad comedy made the film even more funny. Younger generations miss that dimension.

[quote]Wes Bentley in American Beauty. His first major role for which he received very positive reviews.

Wrong thread, R58. This should be in the "Actors Who Got Big Breaks But Blew Them" thread.

[quote]I'm dead and that's why I got an Oscar.

FTFY

[quote]Brain Cranston of "Malcolm in the middle" dufus father fame, OWNS this thread with his performance as Walter White/Heisenberg in "Breaking bad."

No, nobody "thought Cranston was miscast" because nobody knew what the fuck Breaking Bad even was. To think someone is miscast, you have to have some awareness of the upcoming movie/show, and some awareness of the character. It's pretty simple, really.

Nicole Kidman in The Hours. She almost punched through with Porteait of a Lady, but that was a strange arty bomb (though beautifully crafted). The Hours, along with some heavy lifting from The Others, completely changed how people saw her.

I still maintain she is a brilliant actress. Saw Destroyer. She is devastating in it.

Tom Hanks in Philadelphia

Halle Berry in Monster's Ball (although she squandered it with shit movies after)

Harrison Ford in Witness

Mickey Rooney as I. Y. Yunioshi --

People said he couldn't pull of playing a Japanese man.

PEOPLE WERE WRONG.

^^^off

Sharon Stone in Casino Margot Robie in I, Tonya Nicole Kidman, Malice Melanie Griffith, Working Girl

I, Tonya is a great example.

For me, it was Whoopi Goldberg.

I had never heard of her before "The Color Purple." When I saw that movie, I thought that she was going to be the next Cicely Tyson, a serious dramatic actress. Then I was introduced to her comedy side. But I think The Color Purple introduced her to the mainstream, but she was able to use that exposure to move between comic and dramatic roles.

Valerie Harper Was miscast as a Jew

[quote] Wes Bentley in American Beauty. His ONLY major role for which he received very positive reviews.

fixed

Judy Garland - The Wizard of Oz

[quote] Judy Garland - The Wizard of Oz

That cunting Deanna Durbin Troll is back.....

Mia Farrow in Rosemary's Baby. She didn't fit the book's Rosemary but she was tremendous in the movie.

Interesting, r74 -- what is Rosemary like in the book?

I think the Airplane movies did a big turn around for Lloyd Bridges and Peter Graves as well.

Humphrey Bogart in the African Queen.

John Travolta. His career was in the trash after “Look who’s Talking”. His role in “Pulp Fiction” brought him back.

"No, nobody "thought Cranston was miscast" because nobody knew what the fuck Breaking Bad even was. To think someone is miscast, you have to have some awareness of the upcoming movie/show, and some awareness of the character. It's pretty simple, really."

R62 everyone knew breaking bad was no comedy. It was a show about meth dealing for crying out loud, are you seriously saying you aren't capable of deducting the type of character Cranston would be playing from that alone? Did you think he could possibly be playing the same type of character as he played in MITM?

Steve Carell changed his career from a comedic actor to a dramatic one, but I can’t list the performance that was responsible.

Ditto for that comedic actor on Parks & Recreation, who shed his fat, built some muscle, and is now getting leading man roles. (Name?)

I wasn't even aware if Cranston until BB. Isn't it considered his breakthrough role? His career peaked late in life.

He was well known for his part as the dad on Malcolm in the middle.

Cranston was also on King of queens, and I believe Seinfeld, if I'm not mistaken.

Michael Keaton in Tim Burton's "Batman" and its sequel?

I consider Bryan Cranston's awareness came with Malcolm in the Middle. When I started watching that show, I knew that I had seen him in a lot of other shows, but couldn't really pinpoint what show. When I looked him up, I realized he was a character that popped up on Seinfeld every so often. So MITM was his first high profile exposure where I cemented in my mind who he was.

Agree w/R45. She was perfectly cast (because she could be quite the bitch in real life), but it didn't really change the trajectory of her career since not only is the movie mostly forgotten, but she never made another even remotely similar, and ended up being remembered for her comedy work.

Susan Richardson - The McLean Stevenson Show

Jodie Foster in “The Accused”. She was superb.

Ali MacGraw in “Just Tell Me Want You Want”. She was positively wonderful in it. It’s too bad she wasn’t cast in sophisticated comedies, such as this one. She was a marvelous comedienne.

Candice Bergen in “Starting Over”. It was as startling as Ann-Margret’s dramatic performance in “Carnal Knowledge”. Candice Bergen opened up a whole new career as a screen comedienne. She was wonderful and she still is.

Cher in “Silkwood”. She was incredible!

Bergen in Starting Over is a good one. Every now and then, if I need a laugh, I'll watch her big musical scene in that. It kills me. Who knew she was capable of being that funny?

For me, Mrs. Doubtfire was where I gained a new appreciation of Robin Williams. I was used to his manic style of comedy, but I never knew he could tone it down and give a really moving dramatic performance while still being funny. I loved him in One Hour Photo, too.

Cybill In Moonlighting.

Bryan Cranston got his start on soaps, and there's also an interesting clip on YouTube from some syndicated afternoon courtroom show that was fictional...where he played a bisexual (!) man.

He was also very concerned about your bumpy asshole.

I believe Kelly and Jodie were originally cast in each other's roles, r88.

It's probably been mentioned, but Farrah Fawcett reinventing herself as a serious actress with the Burning Bed. She'd become a has-been and a joke by the early 80s, the only way to remain a star was by showing she actually had some talent. And surprisingly, she did.

tldr, but thought it was worth posting

^^Thanks for the post. MTM was absolutely incredible in this movie. Those scenes are as powerful and moving today as they were 39 years ago.

Murder In Texas was really Farrah's turn around. She was excellent in that.

[quote][R62] everyone knew breaking bad was no comedy. It was a show about meth dealing for crying out loud, are you seriously saying you aren't capable of deducting the type of character Cranston would be playing from that alone? Did you think he could possibly be playing the same type of character as he played in MITM?

Err, in the beginning of the show, Walt is in fact a schlub. But that's not the point. The point is that BB was an unknown quantity. We knew nothing about Walter White to think Cranston was "miscast."

If you heard that Suzanne Somers was cast as Ruth Bader Ginsburg in a new legal drama, you would snort. If you heard she was cast in the role of "Jane Smith" on some new show, you would have no idea how to evaluate that.

You're welcome, R99, I agree of course. There's also this:

R80, you’re thinking of Chris Pratt.

R102, that’s a great scene. Beth tries to gaslight her husband.

R104 interesting, I never thought of gaslighting but what part of the scene do you see that?

I just thought she was acting like a cunt.

Johnny Depp. He thought producers were going to fire him from POTC but he became an A-lister because of it. Which unfortunately, didn't seem to help his life all that much.

Bjork in Dancer in the Dark

R105, Beth asks Calvin: “do you do that deliberately or is it just a reflex?” ... “He controls you even when he’s two thousand miles away.

So, Beth is trying to convince Calvin that there’s something wrong with him. She also belittles Calvin for wanting to call Connie. Of course, the biggest problem in that family is with her, not with Calvin. That’s gaslighting.

R93 Thanks.

That was exactly the drama I craved on a Tuesday night. Bi-Bry was super cute then.

"Let's keep communication open." Literally an open ending.

Larry Hagman as JR Ewing. Far cry from Tony Nelson.

Elizabeth Shue in Leaving Las Vegas

Elizabeth Shue is weird, because she's always been likable enough, but she's not an interesting character actress or a good leading lady. She always fell between the cracks. I think she was at her best in Adventures in Babysitting where she could play up her wholesome looks and personality and Leaving Las Vegas where she could shatter her wholesome looks and personality.

She seemed almost TOO girl next door to the point of being ordinary. Still, I've never truly hated one of her performances, so she's inoffensive.

George Clooney, from “ER” to “O Brother, Where Art Thou?”

Uma Thurman upgraded her career when she played a louche free spirit in HENRY & JUNE (1990). She had done art house movies before, but always as the pretty innocent. In this racier role, she even took on a slurred New York accent.

Critics were pleasantly surprised.

R104/R108 I see your point about the gaslighting. But gaslighting requires an intent. I think she is lambasting Calvin but not to ignore her feelings. Part of that scene is about seeing true emptiness and loneliness of Beth since her favorite son- the love of her life- has died. Her grief has made her mean and shallow, you can see the light has left her. Now I don't believe that Beth has always been that way.

I did think it was weird that Guy Pearce and Hugo Weaving both got aids.

Thank you, r115. Beth is not gaslighting Calvin.

r104 r108 See "Gaslight."

[quote]r100 Murder In Texas was really Farrah's turn around. She was excellent in that.

It was a hairdo turn around for her, too. She looked fantastic in a plain ponytail.

It's perfectly fine that Wes Bentley is in this thread. Some actors never get a break and that one big role does change the trajectory of their career even if they don't fulfill their early promise. American Beauty at least put him on the radar in a very good way, even got him leads in projects that didn't pan out and has probably kept him working as an actor this long.

Easy ones:

Carrie Fisher - Star Wars. She really didn't have the best career outside of the Star Wars franchise but that role alone gave her a lifetime of fame and money.

Sissy Spacek - Carrie - Outside of Badlands, she'd done mainly TV movies and TV series up until this point.

Actually before Cher did Mask and Silkwood she proved herself an actress in Come Back to the 5 and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean

At some point Bill Murray became an acclaimed actor. Was it Rushmore?

I think so r123.

Silver Linings Playbook really turned thinks around for Bradley Cooper.

It was TV but Sybil mad our Sally a respected actress rather than a joke in a nun's habit.

They Shoot Horses Don't They recast Jane Fonda as a serious dramatic actress.

Thanks, r35. Dick Powell has been a long time favorite of mine in both of his role types.

Steve Martin in Pennies From Heaven.

Boris Karloff and "Frankenstein." 1931

He was 44 years old, had been a bit part actor from 1919 - 1930 and was a truck driver to support himself.

He became the most famous horror movie actor overnight when that movie came out and he continued to be the most famous horror movie actor up to his death in 1969.

Ellen as a benign talk show host, devoid of sexuality and a willing corporate shill.

[quote]Silver Linings Playbook really turned thinks around for Bradley Cooper.

It turned him into someone whose movies I never wanted to see again. That woman he acted with in it is poison to me.

R115 et al, I don't think R104 / R108 is so far off. Beth is smart and she is walking that line. The brilliant part of that scene is how she comes very close to saying she can't love someone who wants to be loved so desperately when it's her own son. She may not be successful at "gaslighting" Conrad or have the "intent" to make him believe he's the problem, not her, but she comes pretty close to that degree of intent and manipulation. What she's saying to Cal is part of that manipulation even though he's not the target

Go back and watch the scene at R98 near the end where she spins and spins facts around – claiming not telling them he had quit swimming into being a liar and that Buck never would have committed suicide, etc. The same way she won't take a picture with him and pretends she wants a picture of the men together, etc. She's manipulating in tiny little ways to make Conrad feel like he's the tainted, repellent one and that the suicide attempt only confirms her view that there's something wrong with him, not her.

What's brilliant about the character is how pathologically controlled she is at manipulating despite the pain she's in. She does it throughout the movie, working Conrad to make him believe he's the screwup. I think it's pretty damn close to what R104-R108 is saying and she's just working that same argument on Cal.

We don't know if this only started after Buck's death either, but we have every reason to believe it got worse after Buck's death. She's emotionally committed to the idea that Conrad is to blame for Buck dying but at the same time can't accept that if she had to choose she wished Conrad would've been the one to die and possibly would have blamed him for that, too.

Her spinning the argument back on Cal is just an extension of what she's doing to Conrad,

Farrah needed the softening at r120

r133, that is manipulating, whether done unconsciously or not. It does not rise (or lower itself) to the definition of "gaslighting."

Have millennials redefined gaslighting, the way they did "random"?

R135 and R136, the definition gaslighting is "a form of psychological manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity".

Go back and watch the scene at R98, where we learn that Beth didn't visit Conrad in the hospital because she was traveling and she tries to make him believe he's wrong. She didn't visit him AT ALL? Even Cal in the clip feebly tries to say it's because she had the flu, but Conrad isn't fooled, because she could go to Spain but not the hospital and her reply: She says if Buck had been in the hospital she would've visited even if she had the flu and she immediately reminds Conrad that Buck wouldn't have been in the hospital. Translation: You were in the hospital because you're crazy. This is what she's been doing all along: It fits the definition.

No, Conrad, your memory is faulty. Your mother didn’t visit you in the hospital because she had the flu, she wasn’t traveling, even though she travels again for the golf trip (leaving you with your grandparents) and on that very same golf trip is trying to convince Cal to travel without you and leave you behind (which is why she blows up at tries to make Cal believe he's being manipulated by Connie).

No Conrad, you didn’t try to kill yourself because you blame yourself for your brother’s death and feel that your mother blames you for it, you tried to kill yourself because you’re defective or crazy, not like Buck. You're the manipulative one, the liar.

No Conrad, when your mother doesn’t want to stand in a picture with you or won’t hug you back, it’s you, not her, she doesn’t hate you, there’s just something wrong with you. You're just perceiving it that it's her.

She's doing a form of it. It's just more complex and not as diabolical as the film Gaslight. You're confusing Gaslight the film with gaslight the broader concept that has tagged behaviour in the original film.

Yes, r137, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Actual gaslighting. I'm not "confusing" anything.

No, R138, R137 is right. You're narrowing it to the film, even if you're just conflating the two, not . That there must be a diabolical plot by a certain type of villain. The term "gaslighting" is broader and is "actually" as R137 defined it. It's not a millennial thing. It is anyone who is attempting to make someone believe they're imagining things and question their sanity.

That is what Beth did to Connie, just not to her husband, who thought he was protecting Cal by going along with it. They're clearly trying to make him believe his memory is faulty in her not coming to see him, that she didn't travel while he was in the hospital, she just had the flu. She's clearly trying to make him seem like the pathological one who deserved to be in the hospital and that he's imagining the way she treats him. It fits the definition of how the term is defined and used.

R137 Your insight to this movie is astute. I never thought of the mother's manipulations as gaslighting until now, but, per the definition and how you describe it in detail, as it relates to the movie strongly backs up your point of view that that's exactly what she's doing with her husband and son.

You believe what you want to believe, r137.

Leslie Nielsen in AIRPLANE and then later THE NAKED GUN. Growing up all I saw him in was dramas, lots of made for tv movies. He'll now be forever remembered for his work in comedy.

Robin Wright and "House of Cards". The Lady Macbeth-like character of Claire Underwood was very much at odds with everything she had done up to that point.

I love this Ordinary People discussion. From both directions. I adore that film, and this discussion is showing me even more detail and insight into it. The gaslighting thing is fascinating here. My god, Beth is such a mess. And so much messier because she refuses to allow any mess.

Mary Tyler Moore was perfection I feel. In every way. Her smile. The cold quality that was always right underneath. The edge of hysteria which was used so comically on MTM, Redford was so smart to see how he could tap into it tragically for Ordinary People.

That was a tough Oscar pick between Sissy (Coal Miners) and MTM. Both were extraordinary.

I have to say that Beth's actions toward Conrad is about blaming him for letting the love of her life die. She attacks him for being weak because ultimately that is why she believes he should have died and not his brother. Conrad reminds her everyday that she is alone and starts her grief with his very presence. There is a scene when she asks Calvin if they can go to London for Christmas- " It is be like something out of Dickens" it's a shallow remark- she is empty, trying to escape her life within her social group, her remaining son, and even her husband to some degree. Her fights with him revolve around which side he is taking. That's how she sees life now - choosing sides( grieving wife or weak, unhappy child). I understand the gaslight theory but she is trying to divorce his actions from Buck and herself. Conrad is no longer a part of her. It's the fact that she has abandoned one child over another. From that point of view she looks mean, shallow, cold, and aloof. To gaslight someone, even with a broader definition, is to twist their own thoughts of sanity for a benefit of some kind. I can see where she would benefit from him being driven insane but again there has to be an intent, and I don't see her intent. Her reactions are about her selfish needs overweighting her child's. She is fascinating because her reaction to death and her child's PTSD is all about her- and no one else. That brings me to the plate scene- when the plate breaks she reacts by saying it's a " clean break". That's what she wants from Conrad. Ironically she is as abnormal in her feelings toward about Conrad as she was about Buck.

[quote] R141: You believe what you want to believe, [R137].

Now R141 is gaslighting R137.

Cal: “He isn’t the problem.”

Beth: “Isn’t he?”

Cal: “Let’s talk about what’s bothering you.”

Beth: “no, let’s talk about what’s bothering YOU...”

So, Beth tries to say that Connie’s the problem, and when that doesn’t work, she tries to say that it’s Calvin that’s the problem. But it’s certainly not her, that’s the problem, she’s communicating.

Then Beth plays the ultimate victim card when she complains that her brother should take care that his kids don’t drown in that pool he’s so proud of. That’s a way of ending discussion by going way, way off topic, and making it too emotional to continue discussing further.

I’m going to go out on a limb and speculate that Beth has always been this person that you see in the film. It’s just that a stressor has been applied and it draws-out her worst character defects. Otherwise, they might all have lived full lives and never noticed what a weak person she was.

As for motive, it seems that her motive isn’t some hidden treasure in the attic, like in the movie “Gaslight”. Instead, it’s her mental-emotional state she’s trying to protect by blaming others for the crappiness she feels. I think some of the posts above are defining Gaslight too narrowly. So much so, that the word loses it’s utility. It like saying, “but there are no gaslights involved, so it can’t be gaslighting”.

Not to derail what is a great discussion about Beth, but I found this while looking for Ordinary People clips. MTM presenting with Jack Lemmon the Oscar to Tim Hutton and Mary says "Do you want to present the honors?" before naming Jason Robards who was. And Jack hops in and says we have to say him. Watch Mary's reaction. She makes Beth look warm and cuddly in the clip. Maybe that's the only side Redford saw and was worried she'd be too hard ...

All you honeys who think Beth was gaslighting Conrad and Calvin, have you ever actually been gaslit? I have. And it's quite different from having a mother who's narcissistic and borderline—whatever Beth's actual diagnostic state is called.

I know this because I had a mother like Beth. The thing I did wrong was to be gay. My falling in love with a guy was a worse thing to have happen to her than if, say, my brother had drowned, as I was her Buck. That's right. It happened to her, in her mind. Quite a bit different than actually having someone in my life who stage-managed shit to make me think I was crazy.

But back to the discussion, I agree R149. It's also like saying if you're not a villain intending to destroy someone diabolically, the fact that you're not trying to make someone question their memory and sanity is something else. As has been said above, gasligting the concept was not the aim or manner, it's the METHOD of messing with people to make them that they misheard, misremembered or are not sane.

And yes, R151, she is definitely trying to make Conrad think he's remembering things and that she's crazy. As said above, it's not just the lying about why she didn't visit him in the hospital and pretending his memory is faulty that she was traveling. Look at the clip above when she slips and tells Conrad that she was bad in trig like he was. Once Conrad notices it and says they have something in common, she gets this stone cold look when Conrad seizes on something they had in common and she turns it back on him, "Did I take trig?" It's creepy. She knows it and so does he. She just said she did. She can't mean the question seriously. She's doing it to keep Conrad from getting close to her.

You can't believe she can't be so clueless as a mother in R98 to believe Conrad would not think she didn't want to take a picture with him by the way she behaved. What on earth is the point of that little show? She could have easily taken a picture for show to prove to everyone that she doesn't hate her son. That whole show is to pretend for the grandparents or to really get Cal to let her take a different picture but she knows her son is standing right there. Look at her reaction shot when Cal says "give her the goddmamn camera!" No surprise, no reaction, almost a smile.

As was said above, the pivotal scene is the last fight, where Conrad calls her out on lying about visiting and she calls him the liar for not lying but keeping it a secret that he had quit swimming, that he's the psycho trying to hurt her and was in the hospital for good reason.

It doesn't matter that she's not doing with an intent to cause him to have a break down. She's doing it to make her look like the victim and to make her son into the villain since she can't DIRECTLY accuse Conrad of being responsible for Bud's death. Mary Tyler Moore says that's how she played Beth, as someone who is a victim, not a villain. But she's gaslighting him to protect herself from how horrible she is to her own son.

to make them *believe* that they misheard....

"When Cher's name came up in the opening credits the audience started laughing."

This never happened. The audience would already know Cher was in the movie and thus wouldn't be surprised and laugh. This poster's meme was stolen from Cher's interview where she stated that an audience laughed at a TRAILER for the film when her name appeared.

Look at what Conrad believed and even then he can't "figure it out" when he thinks he does... His doctor tries to tell him what she's deflecting and he can't believe it...

The preview that had had audiences laughing at Cher was for "Silkwood".

I was at a theater one night when the a preview for Silkwood and several ones were shown prior to the feature starting.

It started with Streep's name, then a second name (can't remember who), and then Cher's name appeared and the crowd cracked up.

At this time, people associated her with her campy songs, "Sonny and Cher" and "Allman and Woman."

She was NOT taken seriously at that time.

^^^^^ several other ones

What the f. is R150 going on about? That paragraph made zero sense.

Not r150., here There are unfinished sentences there for sure. (Jason Robards was... what? nominated? Not there?) But I get it, R158.

Watch the clip. Mary goofed and was going to announce the winner without naming Robards. Jack Lemmon caught her goof. She has no humour about it and says how could ”we” forget in a pretty stiffway. (Uh no, you forgot, Mar’). She does come off stiffer than her Ordinary People character (Beth).

Well, this one isn't so well known, but it really should be. I already knew Ann-Margret was a wonderful actress (I had already seen 'Carnal Knowledge' and 'Tommy'). But her performance in 'Magic' with Anthony Hopkins blew me away. She's absolutely heartbreaking: just natural and unaffected. Remember, back in 1972, she fell off a 22-foot platform in Las Vegas, and suffered several facial fractures, a concussion and a broken arm, and spent 3 hours in surgery, having her face reconstructed. You can still see the scars, if you look for them. This is my favorite performance of hers, but she's delivered many great performances. Anyway, it's a very good movie, but it's difficult for me to watch.

Woody Harrelson in Natural Born Killers. Who’d have guessed the lovable twit from Cheers could be so fucking terrifying?

Not exactly the same thing, but I rolled my eyes when they cast Tim McGraw in the movie version of Friday Night Lights, and he was actually pretty good. I’d only ever thought of him as a mediocre country music hack.

Robin Williams - Moscow on the Hudson

Johnny Olsen in Match Game 75!

I laughed when I saw Johnny Cash as a "guest murderer" on Columbo, but damn if he wasn't pretty good.

R160 you are right on point about the great Ann-Margret. She is very natural. And she is very authentic. Much like Elvis. You can see why he would find her natural graces attracted. I also remember Magic. She shows her tits in that one. I got a boner.