"Queer" media attacks attacks Martina for speaking the truth

That's a good picture of Martina. And she knows what she is talking about. She was a top athlete in her days.

Love her!

She is one of the people R1 that got better looking as she aged.

"shocking tweet" Oh, just fuck off, Queerty. Go find more straight guys to feature and lust over.

These people think that Martina Navratilova is the enemy? She has done more for our community than almost anyone.

Trans activist Rachel McKinnon actually tried the 'don't you know who I am?' bullshit with Martina on Twitter. These nutjobs can just fuck right off, they don't belong in our community.

There's a cute commenter on Queerty " HEREIAM" that sounds straight from the DL re: this issue of trans!

[quote]Trans activist Rachel McKinnon actually tried the 'don't you know who I am?' bullshit with Martina on Twitter. These nutjobs can just fuck right off, they don't belong in our community.

McKinnon is a POS MtF who has said lesbians need to get over their "genital hangups" and fuck trannies who have dicks. He'll never say that gay men should fuck FtM. Too cowardly. Easier to go after women.

YASSSS ! God I fucking loooove this fearless bitch! She is the only fucking one left with any balls (ahem with respect to the fragrant dOcToR McKinnon)

Another trans thread. Yawn.

[quote]Responding to the criticism she received over her initial tweets, Navratilova wrote:”I also deplore what seems to be a growing tendency among transgender activists to denounce anyone who argues against them and to label them all as ‘transphobes’.

[quote]“That’s just another form of tyranny. I’m relatively tough and was able to stand up for myself in my Twitter exchange (..) but I worry that others may be cowed into silence or submission.”

r9 Don't really have an opinion on this matter as I don't do sports but yes, that is one badass bitch.

[quote]Another trans thread. Yawn.

Yes. It's a shame you were forced to read through it and then respond.

Don't worry. I'm sure it will be shut down in a few hours like all the other trans threads and AOC threads. Can't have any differing opinions in our community.

Where's MY goddam Wimbledon trophy?

Hi, OP.

This might be a shock to you, but the lives of gay men in general, and Datalounge in particular, don't involve around this lesbian vs. transgender tug of war.

Could you post less often about it? Thanks!

I like her. A lot.

R14, the transtapo want any little boy who picks up a Barbie or dials a phone with a pencil to chop his dick off asap. Just like they do with gay boys in Iran. It affects us, too.

Fuck you cunt r14. I’m a gay man and eroding the very definition of biological sex and therefore “homosexuality” (and the very real physical and psychological dangers of transing a future generation of gay kids ) concerns me very much as it should you (if you weren’t in fact actually being a TRA doing your usual tactic of trying to shut down gay people)

Where the fuck do you trannies get off on criticising martina? How dare you attack someone who has done so much for gay rights? Trannies are homophobic. It's time us gays get some courage and start new groups.

New groups minus the t.

Martina’s article:

The rules on trans athletes reward cheats and punish the innocent martina navratilova

Letting men compete as women simply if they change their name and take hormones is unfair — no matter how those athletes may throw their weight around

SShortly before Christmas I inadvertently stumbled into the mother and father of a spat about gender and fair play in sport. It began with an instinctive reaction and a tweet that I wrote on a serious forum dealing with the subject. “You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women,” I tweeted. “There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard.”

Perhaps I could have phrased it more delicately and less dogmatically, but I was not prepared for the onslaught that followed, chiefly from a Canadian academic and transgender cyclist named Rachel McKinnon.

McKinnon won the Masters Track cycling world championship in Los Angeles last October in the 35-44 age category. It was a victory that gave rise to controversy — not least because the woman who came third, Jennifer Wagner-Assali, said it was “not fair”.

McKinnon has vigorously defended her right to compete, pointing out that, when tested, her levels of testosterone, the male hormone, were well within the limits set by world cycling’s governing body. Nevertheless, at 6ft tall and weighing more than 14 stone, she appeared to have a substantial advantage in muscle mass over her rivals.

My tweet brought an angry response from McKinnon, whom I had not named (I had no idea who she was at the time). She accused me of being “transphobic” and demanded I delete my tweet and apologise. Since I have spent much of my life fighting injustice, on my own behalf and for others, I was pretty put out, especially when the bullying tweets from McKinnon continued, like incoming fire.

Ever the peacemaker, I promised to keep quiet on the subject until I had properly researched it.

Well, I’ve now done that and, if anything, my views have strengthened. To put the argument at its most basic: a man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organisation is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires. It’s insane and it’s cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair.

Simply reducing hormone levels — the prescription most sports have adopted — does not solve the problem. A man builds up muscle and bone density, as well as a greater number of oxygen-carrying red blood cells, from childhood. Training increases the discrepancy. Indeed, if a male were to change gender in such a way as to eliminate any accumulated advantage, he would have to begin hormone treatment before puberty. For me, that is unthinkable.

Hundreds of athletes who have changed gender by declaration and limited hormone treatment have already achieved honours as women that were beyond their capabilities as men, especially in sports in which power rather than skill is paramount. McKinnon is just one example. That may uphold the International Olympic Committee’s charter, which holds that “the practice of sport is a human right”, but it is surely unfair on women who have to compete against people who, biologically, are still men.

I know the argument is made that sport is always unfair and that the notion of a level playing field is a myth. Someone who is 5ft tall has next to no chance on a basketball court. But I still believe that fairness should always be valued and strived for, and that unfairness introduced through human action and chemical means should be condemned and outlawed.

Let me make a critical distinction between transgender and transsexual athletes. Transsexuals have decided to change their gender and have had the deed done, surgically. They have made the full commitment. They are few in number and rarely enjoy a competitive advantage.

Back in the 1970s, when I was competing, Renée Richards appeared on the women’s tour. Originally a man named Richard Raskind — a strong but not outstanding player who competed at the US Open — Raskind changed his sex through surgery, changed his name (Renée means “reborn” in French) and began to compete as a woman.

I had no objection (she later became my coach and a friend), but some players refused to compete against her and the United States Tennis Association prevented her from competing at the US Open. She took the organisation to court for discrimination and won. She competed once more at the US Open, with very similar results to those she achieved two decades earlier as a man.

Judgments are difficult and dilemmas abound (Richards, now an ophthalmologist, these days has misgivings about her actions herself), but the ruling principle most be fairness.

That brings me to the most controversial current case, involving Caster Semenya, the Olympic 800m champion. She was designated female at birth and has been raised as female throughout her life. Suspicions were aroused because she was such a dominant runner and her body shape looked male.

It turned out that Semenya has a condition called hyperandrogenism, which produces naturally occurring, but elevated, levels of testosterone. She has never taken medication or sought an advantage. She has just trained and run.

Unfortunately, the International Association of Athletics Federations decided to bring in a rule requiring female athletes with naturally high testosterone levels to take hormone therapy for six months and then to maintain lower testosterone levels.

The new rule, which was due to come into force last November until it was legally challenged by Semenya and Athletics South Africa, was to apply to track events from 400m to a mile. Leaving out sprints and longer distances seems to me to be a clear case of discrimination by targeting Semenya. And can it be right to order athletes to take medication? What if the long-term effects proved harmful?

Semenya’s case will come up tomorrow at the Court of Arbitration for Sport. It is expected to last a week and the outcome is expected on March 29. I hope she wins.

Semenya, Richards and many others have been subject to vilification, ostracism and the awful human inclination to identify anyone who is different and start a witch hunt. I had problems of that kind myself when I came out as gay in 1981, and it hurt, terribly.

McKinnon, who says she received more than 100,000 hate messages on Twitter after winning the world championship, has presented herself and other transgender athletes as victims of prejudice. Certainly, there can be no excuse for such ignorance and nastiness.

But I also deplore what seems to be a growing tendency among transgender activists to denounce anyone who argues against them and to label them all as “transphobes”. That’s just another form of tyranny. I’m relatively tough and was able to stand up for myself in my Twitter exchange with McKinnon, but I worry that others may be cowed into silence or submission.

Here’s how I concluded my Twitter spat: “Rachel, you may be an expert on all things trans, but you are one nasty human being. Attack, attack, attack. I will not take it from you. You did not engage; you bullied. Not blocking you [though I later did, because who wants all that negativity], but enough already. All I want is fairness.” 🎾 — Game set and match

Martina ROCKS!

Trans Row

Athletes swapping sides

February 17 2019, 12:01am,

The Sunday Times

Lauren Jeska, a transgender woman, won four English and British fell running championships. After officials asked to test her hormone levels, she attacked three with a knife and is serving 18 years for attempted murder.

Laurel Hubbard, a New Zealand weightlifter, set junior male records before transitioning at 35. She won 2017’s Australian Open and was expected to take Commonwealth Games gold last year, until injury made her withdraw.

Hannah Mouncey played 22 times for Australia’s male handball team before transitioning in 2015-16 and joining the women’s side. She also plays Australian rules football but was banned from the women’s league.

Boycott Outsports and their transjacked hit piece on Martina

I totally agree with her. In sport genitals DO matter if your a man playing against women. Not a level playing field. She was being honest and not hateful, however for their delusions to become reality everyone has to agree with them or be called transphobic. Also I see Armie Hammer was defending trans people on his twitter

I don't think Outsports could have applied more filter to the picture of their new managing editor, Dawn Ennis, even if they tried. Still looks unmistakably like a man presenting as a woman.

Astonishing - he manages to hit quite a few relevant points.

MSN has put the Daily Mail article on their site. Don't see any other coverage by U.S. media.

Comment at article linked above - people get it, even straight men, but are cowed by the real threat of govt enforcement. Quite Maoist, no? And so quick!

billy davies6 hrs ago

This is the single most revolutionary change in my lifetime. Being male or female no longer has any objective reality, rather, it's what a person feels (or 'identifies' as). If a woman thinks they're actually a man, nothing is anything and anything is nothing. Nothing in the world has any objective reality anymore.

We are reinforced our sexual (or is it gender, I've lost track?) identity from the moment we're born. First thing a doctor tells the person formerly known as the 'mother'.

Now we've to casually and quickly reject millennia of history and science, and just accept that a man who says he's a woman (and vice versa) is that. And, if you have any concerns about that, you may be investigated by the police. Orwellian is a word that's overused but it applies here. In fact it goes beyond that. The current 'debate' defies belief.

Like many people, I hope, I have nothing against trans people. Live your life, but I can't just say you are something because you think you are something. If I insisted I was the king, I wouldn't expect everyone else to dress up as peasants.

What do i tell my young daughters when they ask what's a man and what's a woman? I don't think I can now answer a basic biological, factual question without potentially being subject to investigation. The most terrifying thing of all is some guidance I've read from a trans charity, that if a teenage boy identifies as a girl, he can go into their changing room and, if the girl objects, she can be removed as transphobic. After 'me too', years of campaigning against gender violence , etc. And given how all men are potential rapists/ the strength of the patriarchy, etc. is some teenage boy somewhere going to do this?

Who's going to challenge the teenage boy who's pretending to be trans ( I am not criticising trans people) and say 'you're at it'? It would take a brave teacher. Last Updated: 2 hrs ago

r31 I'm completely neutral on this matter but that comment has nothing to do with this debate. That commenter apparently wants the government to legislate how people identify and enforce gender norms, which has never been nor should ever be the government's job. That's for each individual to decide. Martina is talking about trans people competing, which is another matter entirely and goes beyond the individual, so of course needs certain rules and regulation.

[quote]What do i tell my young daughters when they ask what's a man and what's a woman?

Hate this argument. Literally not my issue, breeder. My life isn't determined by your or your daughter's (lack of) imagination.

I agree, that while trans women have the right to live socially as the gender they identify with, biological differences make it unfair for those born male to compete in women’s sports. Keep in mind the idea that women and men were equal in all ways goes back to the wave of sports feminism that spawned the “Battle of the Sexes” match between Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs to prove women could compete against men in tennis - but she was 29 years old while he was 55. Real equal, right?

The slave begins by wanting justice, and ends by demanding to wear the crown.

A more apt analogy might be that of a handmaiden or that of a Trojan horse, perhaps.

R22 Caster Semenya should NOT compete in women’s sports either - even though there are drugs to lower her testosterone, there were permanent changes to her bone structure during puberty which is definitely a factor in her athletic superiority over her peers, which is why many of them have cried “unfair.”

R35. Trojan horse for sure. It's staggering the way they operate isn't it.? Did gay men ever act like this towards straights? Demanding that straight guys sleep with them or else they're homophobes. I doubt it.

LOVE Martina and l especially love this burn....

"My tweet brought an angry response from McKinnon, whom I had not named (I had no idea who she was at the time) "

Go Martina!!!

A generation was lost to AIDs and another will be lost to transgenders, but this time with gay organizations complicit.

A lot of you seemingly don't know that laws have already been passed across the US and the world that go well past giving transgenders equal rights into taking away the rights of women, criminalizing speech, enforcing transition of (mostly) gay children, and redefining the word "sex" to make erase homosexuality.

R33, why? Why do transgenders have the right to women's spaces?

No, gender identity (whatever that means in your solipsistic private inner universe) ought to be entirely irrelevant to the government — you are free to believe what you want..but you must not be allowed to compel by law the rest of us to subsume our rationality and contort our logic and common sense to your whimsical caprices or dangerous delusions

Here's Dr. Rachel McKinnon. Like it or not a male body is different than a female body, even after the transition. I don't hate trans people, I've met so many super feminine men who feel uncomfortable in their male bodies to know that yes some people probably are transsexual. However it's impossible to turn a male body completely into a female one, and in sports that really does matter.

I understand why trans women want to be treated like natural women but it just doesn't work like that at the moment when science is still unable to change their bodies completely into female bodies. I was bullied as a teen for being a femme gay kid so I get what it's like to be treated like a freak among so-called normal ones and why you want to feel like one of them but some things cannot be changed just by wishing so, and trans women competing as equals with natural women is one of them.

This is one battle trans people are going to lose. There is no way tall and strong men who have transitioned into trans women will be allowed to compete with women. Currently it's possible in some sports but after they start appearing more and more and win against natural women the backlash will start, and it will be furious.

I'm confused, why did she say it was ok for Renee Richards or Seneyma?

Savvy Navvy!!

When with Queerty finally fail? Why does Queerty fight against everything queer? Why do queers read queerty?

Meet the new editor of Outsports (soon to be rebranded as Transsports, no doubt)

'I'm completely neutral on this matter but that comment has nothing to do with this debate. That commenter apparently wants the government to legislate how people identify and enforce gender norms, which has never been nor should ever be the government's job. That's for each individual to decide. Martina is talking about trans people competing, which is another matter entirely and goes beyond the individual, so of course needs certain rules and regulation.'

How is it another matter entirely? You want it every which way.

Is datalounge the biggest gay website?

The Brave and Stunning new editor of Outsports pictured at a night on the town! Just us girls *giggles seductively*

Love you Martina!

Martina is amazing and no nonsense! I can't believe people are actually saying shes transphobic, she had a trans coach for years.Stand your ground, Martina. Everyone in their right mind agrees with you.

From the odious Cyd Zeigler of Outsports who decided to let a straight guy run his "gay" sports blog:

Sad to see @Martina double down on her misguided attacks on trans women. Calling trans women "men" is shocking to see from someone like Martina. Thinking she knows "fairness" better than the IOC, NCAA and other governing bodies. Awful.

But they ARE men jeeez!

OK, Cyd of Outsports, let's call trans"women" what they are, transwomen, and let them compete against themselves.

According to the National Center for Transgender Equality, 90 of trans"women" keep their dicks and balls.

Any of them, whether they go through puberty or not, will have a competitive advantage against women.

The backlash against this will destroy the Democrats, who are pushing this insanity into law on a state and federal level, as well as homosexuals because it's still lgbT.

People who worship at the altar of Marsha P. Johnson et al. would do well to learn about Martina's role in gay history.

She was out and unapologetic at a time when it truly cost her a lot in sponsorships, endorsements, etc. The world of women's tennis and the corporations supporting it were frightened by any hint of homosexuality, and Martina made an actual change.

As a gay man, I'll take Martina over Rachel any day.

Trans people won't give a fuck about Martina's role in gay history or even the fact she's friends and an ex-colleague with the first trans sportsperson since they don't give a fuck about gay people or women. They only give a fuck about themselves.

Exactly, R56. For example...

You're being SO transphobic! Don't you know that Marsha P Johnson served the first ball at Wimbledon?

This person made an interesting point re Martina and of course is getting called a "terf" for it.

[quote]You're accusing feminists of not doing enough for transgender people. I've never once seen anyone – including you – saying transgender people need to do more about the horrible way girls & women – females – are treated in the world. It's always a one-direction indictment.

Helen Joyce (Finance Editor of The Economist)

The @guardian leaving out the bit where @Martina Navratilova is praised and thanked by many, many women. And agreed with by almost everyone with eyes and a brain in their head

Clueless columnist at The Guardian tweets this (after his own newspaper criticizes Martina).

Owen Jones What are the most important struggles led by women we should all be talking about right now? I mean either local or national struggles, on anything from equal pay to workers right to fighting male violence to service provision?

Bev Jackson How about looking at how women's rights are being undermined to fit with the magical concept of "gender identity", which is like a religious belief swallowed wholesale by the left? Oh, that's not what you meant? And Martina Navratilova is transphobic? You can't help women then.

Good for Martina. Owen Jones can fuck off. He's the one who wrote that article chastising lesbians for not liking dick.

When did it become progressive to call lesbians bigots for refusing to submit to heterosexual male fetishism?

Love Martina. She's always had balls. As it were.

I've always thought Martina was amazing and love that she's come out and said this so publicly.

Unfortunately it's become OK to rubbish the opinions of lesbians because they're automatically seen as mad, militant feminists rather than actual women.

There was a time not long ago when feminists pushed for equal representation of women in certain careers such as street cop or firefighter, but common sense sunk in eventually, and biological reality was accepted - that only a tiny percentage of women have the body structure and stamina for the physical demands of firefighting, for instance. Same goes with the military. Hopefully trans women will likewise come to accept that most of them are physically TOO advantaged to fairly compete in women’s sports.

Hahahahahahahahahahah, R66. When pigs fly.

R67 - Well, if they are too stubborn, why not get them to all join the WNBA then? That’s one organization that would actually benefit from recruiting transwomen, lol.

"Dr. Rachel" McKinnon, AKA The Cyclopath, is having a mantrum (TM another DLer)

He's calling for the BBC to fire Martina, like ESPN fired Curt Schilling, for "transphobia."

From Graham Linehan about Guardian headline:

You misspelled ‘Martina Navratilova Fights Back Against Misogyny and Cheating in Sport’

You misspelled ‘Martina Navratilova Is A Hero’

Cyd Ziegler from Outsports must be getting a big check from Trans, Inc. He is working overtime on Twitter:

Cyd Ziegler This is completely false at every level, totally void of any fact or evidence. Not just "mostly false," this is one humongous Pinocchio. Stop lying about trans athletes. Stick to the facts. Learn. Your baseless biases have no place in sports policy.

C Amidst all this wordsalad of yours underlies a desire for society to believe that one year of hormones erases all the biological advantages of maleness. No one is buying it, and you're not going to silence women with baseless accusations of "biases" when your own shine brightly.

Cyd Ziegler Actually, most sports governing bodies HAVE ALREADY "bought it." Lol. Yay we win!!

Was Cyd Ziegler named after Cyd Charisse?

So much respect for Martina, not lleast because after years of supporting trans bullshit, and blocking anyone who dares question her, she actually did not most don't. She actually did some actual research and realized they bullshit trannys spread like butter over every discussion. So extra kudos for doing actual work and realizing she had been wrong for decades.

Also, hope she unblocks me on twitter for questioning her on her silly past 'belief'

Jamie Shupe (I've got a Wikipedia page. Says I'm a famous transgender person. Crap's wrong. I desisted. Blanchard's right. Autogynephilia was to blame. I'm a dude.)

I served 17 years and 2 months on active duty. At no point did a female soldier ever beat me in the 2-mile run on a fitness test. That's because I had male biology and they had female biology. What transgender athletes are doing to women must end in 2019.

Most Towleroad commenters agreeing with Martina so far.

Meet weightlifter gal JayCee Cooper, who was turned down by the USA Powerlifting competition because she wanted to compete agains her fellow gals.

R76 Think they were pressured into accepting him

I was trying to research this Dawn person (longtime Outsports reader wondering what the FUCK is going on over there) and I came across this crybaby blog post begging for money. The best part: when he whines about how he and his daughter BOTH ran out of feminine pads. Sweet Jesus.

Janice Turner (columnist for The Times)

Hey @guardian, how about: “most successful female tennis player and greatest LGBT sportsperson of all time condemns unfair rules”? Why slur @martina’s brave defence of women’s sports?

It's glorious to see so many people siding with Martina! More and more people are hitting Peak Trans.

Jamie Shupe (detransitioned)

What I've seen happening on my Twitter feed is magical. Conservatives, people of religious faiths, feminists and members of the LGBT community have come together without fighting or arguing to unite for a common cause: To save these children from the horrors of transgenderism.

Just like republicans with trump, I keep waiting for the country to wake up to the aggressive TRA push. I support transgender people (within reason) but I do NOT support TRAS, who want to trans kids, think there's no testing needed with puberty blockers (lol, like we humans just "came across" a chemical that stops human development with absolutely no side effects! NOPE), use lgb as a platform and then stomp down upon us, and accuse ANYONE who questions them as transphobic bigot TERFS!!

I hope this is the turning point, but I'm afraid it won't be for a while. :( depressing post, sorry.

First they came after RuPaul, but I think going after Martina is the tipping point.

R78, why on earth does a man who doesn’t have the right plumbing need feminine hygiene products? That is just insane. Is it all part of the creepy LARPing-as-actual-women these dudes do?

Transwomen AND transmen both can have periods if they choose, and if you say they can't, you're a TERF.

[quote] [R78], why on earth does a man who doesn’t have the right plumbing need feminine hygiene products?

Probably best not to think about it too much unless you want to throw up.

They steal used tampons and sanitary napkins from women's bathrooms, R84, and boast about it on their forums. It was linked on the DL.

They also buy tampons with fake blood that are available for sale. Have no idea where they put the tampons given that 90% of them keep their dick and balls.

There are whole industries built on things like breast binders and packers (fake male genitalia) for girls - these companies even sell packers small enough for toddlers. Talk about sick parents - making their little girl baby wear a fake penis and balls.

"The lowest point was earlier this week, when my daughter and I ran out of feminine pads."

I am [italic]so[/italic] sorry I asked!

Love Martina! What a legend.

Glenn Greenwald and Reese Eitherspoon we’re teaming up on a documentary about Martina’s extraordinary career, I hope this doesn’t mess this up. Glenn has drank the trans koolaid so you never know.

That should be “ Witherspoon”.

Back in the eighties there was a fellow who was a talented distance runner - could finish off a 10K in about 32 minutes. He transitioned and was still posting pretty good times, certainly good enough to be easily the fastest female runner in our local races but he refused to compete in them because it wouldn't be fair to the biological females. She explained that although she was now a female, she was still a gentleman.

“Cyclopath” and “mantrum” are hilarious, and will no doubt be integrated into mainstream vocab someday to describe those asshole business men in spandex racing shorts who ride multi-thousand dollar road bikes on city streets like they are in the Tour de France (when they are actually on their way to Starbucks.) Being in a tech start-up city, I witness many mantrums as well - usually of the Asperger’s variety. (And to think that this clever new lingo comes from DL’rs hating on an obscure trans-cyclist!) Hee

On twitter, Martina linked to the British feminist organization Fair Play for Women that pushed back on the ability for transgenders to self-identify.

[quote]"shocking tweet" Oh, just fuck off, Queerty. Go find more straight guys to feature and lust over.

Which ,ironically, is what "queer" ideology is all about: REINFORCING the primacy and default normalcy of standard heterosexual maleness on which all other expressions of being are compared and contrasted.

I can't stand this picture of McKinnon--- just so smug and sure of the "victory" and the validation of being "female" being received from media and TPTB.

I suppose this is the sleight of hand one must perform when one doesn't have the talent, ability or competence to compete with one's OWN biological sex.

At the link is an incredibly interesting and thoughtful thread on how Trans have managed to become The Cause amongst Progressives in such a staggeringly short time.

Despite that the Trans Lobby agenda will knock out the rights of gays, women, parents and children.

Martina has always been a voice of reason. I like her take down on all the 'grunting' from a player's perspective, that it actually constitutes cheating.

[quote]OK, Cyd of Outsports, let's call trans"women" what they are, transwomen, and let them compete against themselves.

Are you SUGGESTING that we compete in sort of a "trans" version of the PARALYMPICS and SPECIAL OLYMPICS?!

How DARE you compare us to a bunch of CRIPPLES and RETARDS! There's nothing WRONG with US!

r100 If this is sarcasm, it's subtle af.

if this is genuine, gfy.

When Rachel McKinnon labeled Martina “transphobic” in a recent tweet, I was reminded of the common male habit of labeling women with negative words.

McKinnon is exhibiting rather typical entitled male behavior in trying to label and police what Navratilova is saying. McKinnon might want to consider increasing her testosterone suppressors.

From article at R98, an explanation of how trans ideology managed to spread so fast.

Minority rules: Scientists discover tipping point for the spread of ideas

"Summary: Scientists have found that when just 10 percent of the population holds an unshakable belief, their belief will always be adopted by the majority of the society."

Twat-less Wonder McKinnon threw another mantrum and refused to be on BBC radio today to discuss Martina's article if the feminist organization Fair Play for Women was also on.

The BBC kicked Fair Play for Women off and allowed The Cyclopath, McKinnon, to rant unchallenged.

Not coincidental that the BBC has a huge number of transgender employees and forces its employees to honor pronouns and wear transgender "ally" pins.

R101.

R22, I hope she wins, too. Something that exists from birth should not be penalizing. Champions typically have some sort of genetic advantage like stride length and haven't been forced to do something artificial to take away that advantage.

I'm a huge fan of Martina. She's always been a leader and never one to mince words.

r106 You're a fucking moron

So far they are holding their ground r77

The unexpected backlash will really be against butch women. Conservatives (around the world) have gone after them as unfair against "normal women". This will play right into their hands. It's sad to see some in our community doing the work of Muslim nations/religious right.

Questions were once raised "Why should dainty feminine Chris Everett have to deal with man brute Martina Nav. in the first place?" Martina's not really a female.

I remember back in the 80s during History classes with Time & Newsweek as sources for discussions, the boys & girls all agreed that Martina was too masculine to be a real woman.

Funny how a couple of decades can have Martina being the "femme one."

Everyone in school believe she was using steroids at the time (& as a fan of bodybuilding mags I secretly agreed with them but didn't say anything).

I also remember the old guy who ran the National Enquirer who would do gossip segments on various talk shows (like Geraldo, Sally & Joan R.). His immortal line when dealing with the action film stars "possibly" doing steroids to bulk up for their roles was "If doing years of exercise gave men big muscles than Richard Simmons would'vet had the body of Arnold or Sly at some point". Cue the audience laughter.

I don't think anyone believes that Martina & the Williams sisters aren't using male steroids/ male growth hormones to advance their current or past careers in Tennis. Does anyone know where the Williams sisters come down on this issue?

Billie Jean King, Chris Everett, etc. all put in time in the gym & tennis court & none of them ever looked like Martina, Serena or Venus.

Exhibit A = Martina looks FTM in this pic

R109, no, it's just going to ban men from female sports.

R109 Fuck off

R110 Sorry R110. Butch women who have too much testosterone will be caught up in this whirlwind as well.

Many feminine women in conservative parts of the world would object to playing against such masculine women. My female relatives (who also played sports) don't think feminine gals like Chris Everett should have to play against masculine players like Martina. They say it isn't being fair to them. Some even thought Martina should've been forced to play with the men if she wanted to look & act like one. They didn't see Martina as a "woman's champion" of anything.

Here's Martina doing her best Marilyn Monroe impersonation. LOL! Does she not remember when she used to look trans herself? She's coming off a bit of a hypocrite as a feminist as well.

r112 I think you're wrong in your overall point, and I especially think you're wrong in "Martina kinda looks trans so if she fights trans she'll be thrown out to," which is a completely bananas position to take. Here's a difference: Martina doesn't have/never had a penis and testicles! That's a pretty big bloody difference.

R112 Stop repeating stupid shit, we know you are an idiot, you do not have to labour the point

Martina is a woman who went thru female puberty. Women taking steroids is a completely different topic.

Martina is also a woman who went through considerable prejudice and barriers and more than met the challenge -- not by behaving as a victim or demanding standards be lowered for her. She's tough, smart and a trailblazer, she's living gay history -- and it's sickening to see these guys declare themselves women and then think they have the right to shut her up.

R115 No it isn't. The issue is the MTFs having to much testosterone to the point of unfairness & the same argument can be made against many women who don't seem to have plenty of estrogen flowing though their bodies (like Martina & plenty of other lesbians/bisexuals). My female relatives enjoy this kind of topic because not only does it divide our community but it also brings up the topic they wanted several decades ago which is masculine women either retiring, playing among themselves or against men. As it seems to be repeated not everyone on this planet sees Martina as a champion of anything. My female relatives see MN's feminine opponents she has beaten as the real women's champions. They also don't see Billie Jean King as a women's tennis champion either.

Martina should apologize to the MTF & have them show her the feminine way to sit down in public. Most don't want to see her ladyparts in public (including me).

Here is again looking like John Denver 's butch older brother =

R117 Blocking you, tiresome troll from trollville

This isn't just about sports. Martina was gender-nonconforming as a child (what used to be called a tomboy) and grew up to be lesbian. The majority of gender-nonconforming kids grow up to be gay. Children who are gender-nonconformists-- as Martina once was and as many of us were-- are now at risk of being medicalised and surgically mutilated by clinicians under the sway of this bizarre trans ideology. I consider this child abuse, pure and simple.

R119 Hear Hear!

r117 No one cares what you or your idiotic female relatives think. Clearly you are a tranny or you would stop belaboring the point. So glad Martina finally fucking told Mckinnon to go fuck himself. Athletes and artists who dealt with the soviets should never be underestimated. After dealing with some of the most medieval bullies on earth, the trannies ain't so scary.

R121 It's not just my relatives. Millions of Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. can halt gay rights (like in the U.N. for example). Back in the day, the Olympic committee blocked the "Gay Olympics" which resulted in the "Gay Games:" title. Any gay/bi person who thinks they can throw a wrench into trans rights will only boomerang back on us. The power to stop 1 or 2 sexual minorities will result in the power to halt other sexual minorities. This thread reminds me of the liberal gays in 1900 Germany who thought they were never going back to the dark ages but how little did they realize the horrors of BOTH World Wars would have on their rights & even lives.

No I'm not a trans but a gay supportive ally who is shocked Martina is siding with the likes of Falwell, Bryant & M. Court. Name calling is a sign of shaming & you can't shame me into supporting bigotry. I'm an equal opportunity feminist. It's sad that Martina isn't one herself.

R122 you're not a feminist at all. Martina is standing up for WOMEN.

[quote]Millions of Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. can halt gay rights (like in the U.N. for example).

R122's attempt at parity is both ludicrous and erroneous. It is not Xtians, Jews, etc. who are at the forefront in preventing the advancement of gay rights in international forums, such as the UN. It's not Xtians, Jews, etc. who legislate that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death and flogging, who murder gay family members to preserve family "honour" and avoid social stigma and ostracism. It is not Xtians, Jews, etc. who arrest, jail and deport gay men from their country. It is not Xtians, Jews, etc. who demand gay men live as women (hijrahs) and undergo sexual reassignment surgery to remedy the social abhorrence of homosexuality (adopted by the "trans" menace).

The threat to the gay community is Islam. Your assertion otherwise is ignorance.

The Czech republic and Eastern Germany had doping programs that essentially turned some women into FTMs back in the 70s and 80s - it was an open secret, and these women were ridiculed a lot by American comics. The “manly” Eastern bloc female athlete was a popular trope.

I wonder if this forced transing of women, in part, fuel’s Martina’s anger over the issue - at least it’s another facet to consider. Andreas (nee Heidi) Krieger and Jarmila Kratochvilova are a few who were victimized by these covert government programs.

r124 Your ignorance is astounding. Christian Eastern Orthodox in Russia and Serbia and conservative Roman Catholics in Poland and Hungary have been hateful towards gay people, with many beatings recorded at gay pride events and elsewhere, murders and jailings. In Christian African countries, such as Uganda, and Tanzania, there have been calls for the death penalty for gay men, and certainly imprisonment. I'm not denying that Muslims have a horrible track record when it comes to gay rights, but only in relatively modern times have Christian communities in western Europe and in the Americas been kinder to gays. Their past was EQUALLY heinous. Murders and capital punishment of gay people was not uncommon and imprisonment was VERY common. It was not the Muslims who imprisoned Oscar Wilde........

[quote]No I'm not a trans but a gay supportive ally... I'm an equal opportunity feminist.

R122, no gay-supportive ally or feminist would ever mock butch women the way you have in this thread. You are a repugnant homophobe, and you're not wanted on Datalounge. F&F.

R126 Your continued attempt at parity where NONE exists is appalling. Your selection of a few examples of attacks in conservative Xtian countries does not change the fact that gays enjoy legal protection in Serbia, Poland and Hungary, that gays have found freedom and protection in Xtian countries, that in 57 Muslim countries, homosexuality is a crime and socially taboo and that those same Muslim countries lead the campaign to silence gay voices in international forums.

Was Rachel McKinnon the one who said she was literally murdered by a man who ran up to embrace her competitor (a real woman, and his gf/wife) in a hug? "That was the day I died" or some such shit?

She's fucking amazing. Everything she says is true. And she says it in such a respectful, non-hateful manner.

Unfortunately, the media and the sporting organization seems to be on the transgender sides.

The only way women athletes can be heard is if they threaten a boycott or file a class action lawsuit against the Sport organizations.

Boycott ALL pro-tr*nstapo media outlets and organizations. No exceptions. The war on men and the war on homosexuality are real and this is a weapon used against us.

In this blog post McKinnon claims his ex-wife raped him:

R132 Follow your money, know where the money you spend is going. Drug and cosmetic companies (e.g., Lush) and gay websites *ahem* support the "trans" menace through their business dealings and charitable contributions.

First of all, it's "Chris Evert", not "Chris Everett".

Second, I come to this topic with some knowledge, having followed the sport of tennis closely since I was a kid over 35 years ago, to having covered the sport as a freelance journalist for over 10 years, having the opportunity to meet and interview players, commentators, administrators, and officials. (No, I am not Ben Rothenberg, although I have met him.)

Yes, once upon a time, some people suggested that Martina Navratilova was too masculine, and should compete on the men's tour instead of the women's tour. More recently, similar statements have been made about Venus and Serena Williams. It's important to note that these statements have been made by trolls, by "fans" who tweet, write responses to blog posts, or - in days long gone - wrote letters to the editor. Certainly no players or tour officials ever made such statements. It's very possible that some idiot journalists or commentators made such comments, but if so they have been rightly silenced. Suffice it to say, Martina competing with the men was never a legitimate notion put forth by anyone in the sport, only by some vocal minority of ignorant fans.

The fact that Martina, a long-time ambassador of the sport and of LGB rights, is being attacked for her views on this shows you (1) the tactics of that population and (2) the strength of that minority community. Contrast the fact that Martina stepped away from her initial comment, researched the topic, then returned with a thoughtful commentary vs. (in Martina's own words) the "attack, attack, attack" mentality of those who disagree. Consider the fact that they attack her by simply labeling her writings rubbish, without challenging the merits of her argument. I don't know that I agree fully with Martina on the topic (I don't see the nuance between a transsexual and transgender when it comes to sport), but I'm taking the time to think.

[quote]Unfortunately, the media and the sporting organization seems to be on the transgender sides.

The media is largely a "left" community. I know many on DL will disagree with me, and certainly there are exceptions (Fox, Daily Wire, etc.). But as someone who has worked in this arena and holds fairly moderate positions, I can tell you that a large contingent of media will support the most progressive of views. This doesn't mean the media will never criticize Democrat politicians, it simply means that they use subtle language to support their personal views or detract from an opposing view (even in a straight news story), and their personal views are to the left of center.

Love this piece

Labeling anyone who acknowledges material reality “transphobic” helps no one.

This

And therein lies the ridiculousness of “transphobia,” in its current use. Trans activists do not use the term to mean “irrational hatred or fear” of trans-identified people. They use it to describe anyone who does not go along with their preferred narrative, unquestioningly, which essentially amounts to anyone who acknowledges reality.

As such, heterosexual men who are not attracted to males and lesbians who do not want to date or sleep with men, regardless of their claimed “identity,” are framed as having some kind of irrational, prejudiced “phobia,” instead of simply having a regular old sexual orientation. And this narrative that says “men are literally women the moment they say so” strikes me as something that hurts trans-identified people too. They are being sold a world of disappointment.

Meghan Murphy is so brave and doing such important work. Gender-critical DLers, if you can spare it, make a donation to Feminist Current.

Jezebel, despite being virulently pro-trans, still haven't covered Martina's horrific transphobia. I don't think they will, because they know EXACTLY what will happen: there will be a lot of commenters who back Martina and point out that hormones are not the only physical differences between men and women. And that's just what they don't want.

Well, the takeover of "queer" media is complete, bitches. Even blogs specifically for gay men are calling Martina "anti-trans." Case in point: Matthew Rettenmund's Boy Culture. And of course, he links to OutSports.

Martina smashes the ball back into the Transtapo's side of the court.

Glad she's doubling down, R141!

[quote]They use it to describe anyone who does not go along with their preferred narrative, unquestioningly

You are of course right r137, but there's two more things I want to add:

1. They not only use "transphobic" to mean "disagrees with me" but they also use "TERF" to, almost exclusively mean "lesbian." The word TERF is in the process (not there yet, but getting there) of losing all meaning, since they only use it when attacking a lesbian.

2. You said they go after heterosexuals but they almost NEVER do! Straight people (many of whom they, in fact, are) are the ones with power in this society, so they can't touch them! They instead only attack the already marginalized, gays and lesbians, calling us "TERF" and "TEHM" and accusing us of being "genital fetishists." It's gross and has completely turned me from an unequivocal ally to a highly skeptical observer.

clearly r117/r122 is a MTT. Trying to say that the Williams sisters or Martina have been doping and that makes them men. WTF?

Also the controversy with Chrissy Evert in the 70s was when she played Renee Richards. Not martina. Richards was huge and clearly had a male body with perky tits glued on but wasn't as good a player despite his towering advantage. Chrissy was always gracious. Martina was somewhat butch in that formerly communist way but nobody said Martina was a man or should have played in the men's circuit. That was Renee Richards you are talking about. I think you know this, and are deliberately trying to confuse the issues.

also R117's comment about MTF giving advice about sitting 'ladylike' is a dead giveaway. Women do not tell other women to be more 'ladylike'. Men do not care if athletes are not 'ladylike' in the way the sit.

The only people concerned with who is the most 'ladylike' is an autogynephile MTF.

Martina is truthful & brave. We need more voices like hers calling out the trans-loonery. Every. Fucking. Day.

The American media is so dishonest on this issue...once they decided they couldn't totally ignore the story.

Helen Joyce (The Economist) You forgot the other bit of the story @CNN - tennis great @Martina Navratilova has also been widely praised and thanked for pointing out what is obvious to (almost) everyone

Matthew Rettenmund is a sellout and proof that the Germans truly are an evil race.

Any gay men who sells lesbians down the river for het male scum should have his GayCard revoked.

If only it was someone else other than Martina, who looks transgender herself.

R107, I'm not. Women born as women should be able to play in any women's sports, if they aren't breaking the rules in terms of additives. Enough with the designer genders. Genetics can affect hormones. So can diet. I know a lot of women high protein eaters, some of who look like Martina did if they exercise much at all.

Transwoman Debbie Hayton supports Martina. i wish more were like Debbie.

WSJ: Martina Navratilova’s Girl Power

Are athletes who are born male but identify as female cheating girls? Tennis legend Martina Navratilova says they are...

Her conclusion is blunt: “It’s insane and it’s cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair...”

Ms. Navratilova’s argument comes at a moment when institutions from high schools to state legislatures are wrestling with the real-world implications of equal access for transgender people. When the issue first arose, the most heated arguments were over single-sex locker rooms, rest rooms and college dorms. But the front lines have now shifted to sports—and girls’ sports in particular.

This is no coincidence. As Abigail Shriernotes in City Journal, “few biological boys are likely to lose top spots in sports competition or the college scholarships that follow because of transgender boys who outperform them.” But in girls’ sports, American moms and dads are increasingly watching their daughters in high school and college competing against biological boys.

In June, two transgender high-schoolers in Connecticut made national headlines when they dominated the girls’ state track competition for the second year in a row...

This in turn has led to a curious development: Some of the most pointed criticism of allowing transgender women to compete in women’s sports isn’t coming from the culture warriors on the right, much as they might be in sympathy. A good part is coming from those like Ms. Navratilova, a longtime champion of gay rights who came out in 1981 and whose Twitter feed is filled with leftist sentiment on everything from Donald Trump and climate change to guns.

Andrew Sullivan noted this surreal alliance in a recent essay for New York magazine headlined “The Nature of Sex.” Mr. Sullivan’s particular focus was the proposed Equality Act—which would add “gender identity” to the classes protected by the 1964 Civil Rights Act—but his main point about the implications of ignoring biological reality dovetails with Ms. Navratilova’s argument about sports.

Once biological reality is pushed aside, Mr. Sullivan writes, it becomes hard to define exactly what a woman really is. “The core of the traditional gay claim,” he writes, “is that there is indeed a very big difference between male and female, that the difference matters, and without it, homosexuality would make no sense at all...”

In the end, if the sports world can’t distinguish between girls and boys, the whole reason for women’s sports disappears. Bully for Ms. Navratilova for her willingness to insist on the distinction.

"If only it was someone else other than Martina, who looks transgender herself."

She's 100% woman, baby, so...

Wow- this article on how a group of older and very accomplished lesbians were physically attacked at last year's San Francisco Dyke March by Trans Activists at first, but then by the whole crowd of LGBTQ+++, is a must read.

Especially for all of you who are not aware of the violence, threats, doxxing, and general harassment lesbians have been receiving from the Transgender Lobby, their handmaidens, and even lgbT organizations.

LOL R154!

R122 is either that piece of shit McKinnon, or a trans troll. They are straight men with an agenda. No other "oppressed" people would get away witg obvious homophobia, misogyny, and racism, except straight men. Saying a female athlete "looks like a man", since they aren't feminine, therefore men can be women too, is right out of their homophobic, misogynistic playbook. They want everyone to believe sex (and sexual orientation) is all about gender stereotypes, and not biology.

[quote]They are straight men with an agenda.

which seems to be: divide and conquer among the gays, and make the left/democrats in general look bad.

R158 Exactly.

Oh, so now Dawn thinks "fair-minded" people can disagree, eh? Those ratios in the Twitter comments must have really stung!

It's hard to believe anything Dawn says. Dawn “accused my wife of playing some kind of cruel joke, dressing me up in a wig and bra and making fake ID’s with the name ‘Dawn’ on it. Seriously,” Ennis wrote in a memo he posted to the newsroom bulletin board Friday, explaining his shock after he woke up from what he called a “transient global amnesia” last month. “It became obvious this was not the case once I took off the bra — and discovered two reasons I was wearing one,” he said, referring to his hormone-induced breasts." ? That was a few years ago. The wife died. Now Don is Dawn again. Why is this person running a website on gays in sports? her piece on Martina, who is a gay hero, was just a hatchet job. Don/Dawn clearly has psych issues.

R122 I’m not sure what your point about the gay Olympics is about? It wasnt homophobia, but more so about ‘trademark’ and protecting the ‘brand’ surrounding the sporting event. They would have tuned down a black olympics as well. would you have accused them of racism?

Canada Winter Games have announced that they are going to allow athletes to compete by gender, so no mucking around with testosterone level, guys, just join the gals' race!

R160 the more troubling one is gay man Cyd Ziegler. What is he doing attacking Martina?

R163 Canada really REALLY hate women

The greatest thing that Martina has done is puncture this fake notion that women had no problem with all these males entering female sports because opinion polls supposedly said so!

Martina, like Barney Frank and a few others, came out when so few had, and there were no rights for gay people.

The idea that these transwomen would try and tear her down is galling. It's clear where their priorities lie.

.........

Scottish man funded 1000 pounds for making fun of a trans"woman."

Women get followed, catcalled, screamed obscenities at, all the fucking time, but men never get fined for abusing real women.

That's just more proof that no one-- not even "liberal" allies-- really sees them as women, R169.

The transgender community is free to do as they please with their own bodies, but I don’t have to agree with them.

Given the increasing number of horrifying stories detailing people NOT swallowing the party line on this issue, soon the only place you "won't have to agree with them" is in your head. And when they find out about your bad thinking, well, you already know what's waiting for you in Room 101!

Looks like George Orwell was spot on.

Rachel McKinnon before.

I don't know, in psychological terms, what causes "it"-----but one thing's for sure it makes most of these dudes a WHOLE lot uglier.

There is one simple fact that shows the absolute advantage the MtTs have. That fact is that there is not one bit of controversy on the FtT side because no FtT can get anywhere near a men's team. If there was no biological advantage from having gone through male puberty, there would be just as many FtTs taking places on men's teams and winning men's competitions after slamming some testosterone for a few years. There have been zero.

Just like a woman can't catch up to a man in any biological sense by taking testosterone, no man can ever remove the effects of that testosterone.

Article on how both the BBC and the Guardian smeared Martina and only gave the Trans' perspective.

The Guardian also lied about the response to Martina's Op-Ed, claiming that "Her comments attracted criticism across social media’" when, in fact, the comments Martina received were overwhelmingly positive.

R174, how dare you deadhead poor little Rachel! Wait, that's for flowers. Trans flowers!!! No, wait, that's not right. Is it dead facing? No, that's zombies. Traaaaannnsss.

R174 shame he transitioned. I have a bit of a thing for jock type guys being sissy bottoms. I’d have taken one for the team and fucked his hole while he wore panties and called him a fag. Oh wait..... he is one of those trannies that are ‘lesbians’ nvm.

Pretty sure I read that Orwell worked for MI 6. Perhaps things are planned well in advance?

R179 fuck off tin hat loser. Don’t link normal peoples frustration at the homophobia disguised as progressiveness, and straight men’s sexual kinks, with some crackpot conspiracy crap.

Go watch Alex Jones or someshit, loser.

R180 seems quite triggered.

This is not just a western phenomenon, remember Iran.

R181 I’m ‘upset’ because some retard is getting all Alex Jones type crazy about trans. It’s not some thing ‘created’ by the powers that be/ soros to sow discord or make money.

That kind of thinking only bolsters the trans movement to point out; “hey look at the transphobes; they are insane”.

[quote]Oh wait..... he is one of those trannies that are ‘lesbians’ nvm.

Also known as "straight guy".

R182 is an ableist and a homophobe engaging in psychological projection and DARVO tactics designed to make gays look like bigots for condemning anti-gay bigotry.

R178 he’s a “trans lesbian “ aka a straight man.

R193 R185 yes....I got that......my post went over your heads....

Guardian is going down the shitter, w. less and less journalism integrity while pandering more and more to hysterical shrieking extremists,

r135 the comments re: the Williams sisters, particularly Serena, were made by people in the tennis world due to rumours, beliefs and allegations of PED use, not because of anything trans. The comments weren't "rightly silenced" they were corporately silenced by TPTB so no one would look too closely and stop their money.

[quote]divide and conquer among the gays, and make the left/democrats in general look bad.

The Left/Dems are doing an excellent job of making themselves look horrible, no different to the Right/Conservatives they condemn. See The Guardian, see formerly pro-gay organisations and media, see anti-Lesbian scree, see this thread. Etc.

Are you psychic r186? R193? BTW he looks like a foot and you have terrible taste.

I don’t think she really thinks there’s so much a difference a transgender vs transsexual would have in competing. I think it’s more that she’s aware most of the problem men don’t undergo full transition. She’s probably like most of the rest of the world, willing to say live and let live for the small percentage who actually follow all the way through with the surgery.

The Left is the new right wing.

Martina Navratilova has done more for gay and lesbian rights than any other person of any gender in sports. She came out in fucking 1981! Her career suffered immensely and she did not care and just kept being true and real. She paid the price in ways most of us cannot imagine....and on the world public stage! She is speaking truth here. A person with a cock does not need to be playing women's sports, period, no matter how female they may feel or believe themselves to be. There are biological differences that cannot be ignored.Its pure rubbish to believe otherwise. On many levels, its just another form of patriarchy rearing its ugly head.

The word is sex, R193.

There is no such thing as g*nd*r, thus something that doesn't exist and is nothing but the product of centuries of bigoted cultural conditioning can't possibly be dysphoric.

R97, the moment that photographer snapped that photo they should have stood up on a table and, “WAIT! You guys! Hold on, everyone. Look at this picture. Just look. This is insane! This is self-evidently WRONG!”

The people pushing this are the ones who need to be arrested, not the ones criticizing it for the bigotry inherent in it.

[quote][R178] he’s a “trans lesbian “ aka a straight man.

Like I said before, they're finding new and creative ways to continue PIV-raping women and cockblocking gay men.

R83 they also went after Kate Pearson of the B52s for her song “Mister Sister.”

They also boycotted the Stonewall movie.

And vandalized the stonewall memorial in NYC.

And chased away the founder of Mississippi’s first gay rights org...he refused to be called cis.

Women should refuse to compite when they are forced to play against men in women sports. They may be called transphobic, but that word is so used is losing meaning already. Disagree is not equal to hate in the mind of mental stable people.

I agree, R200, but it will only work if ALL the women agree to boycott. And sadly, there are handmaidens who will refuse to do so.

Martina’s always been anti-doping, so she’s sticking to her guns and not being a hypocrite despite the pressure to go along. She also is not the anti-trans monster she’s made out to be, and even says:

[quote]Let me make a critical distinction between transgender and transsexual athletes. Transsexuals have decided to change their gender and have had the deed done, surgically. They have made the full commitment. They are few in number and rarely enjoy a competitive advantage.

Women on the podium can hold their fists up as well.

Anyone who hates lesbians hates women.

When the Left says "T*RF"

They really mean "D y k e"

Just like when they say "Zionist"

They really mean "k i k e."

R138, every time I am reading something by a woman like Murphy I’ll be nodding my head until they start talking shit about men. I’ll support them in their cause against the TRAs to a certain extent but ya hard to keep giving a shit when so much misandrist language peppers their arguments. Men, especially gay men, are not the enemies of womankind.

Actually, men kill women r206. There’s a global epidemic of violence against women...90% of all homicides are committed by men.

This is not a personal attack on men. Just a fact.

R206 You can tell that for radical feminists, it’s about MEN more than anything, which is why there is little concern for FTMs in comparison. The trans issue is a deft move to bring more people to the realization that men are invading every aspect of women’s lives to control them. It’s also much easier to go after a fringe group of vulnerable men with psychological problems than the male Goliaths of corporations and politics who exert more power over women than anyone else.

Also, the right wing groups that these radfems hook up with don’t worry much about trans either because it’s a tiny fraction of LGBT. They primarily want to go after LG and strip us of our civil rights, but are using the trans issue to divide us, and the end result is the non-LGBT public conflating trans as “extreme gays” (they don’t seem to be able to grasp onto the idea of “lesbian” MTF autogynophile, no matter how hard the radfems push this narrative.)

I would think twice before hitching my wagon to an extremist group - more often than not, their interests will conflict with yours if you are an “outsider.”

R208 anyone who says transwomen are women is an extremist.

It’s impossible to change sex

I agree, R209. I’m not sure if all trans people feel this is true. Are they all this extreme? If not, the ones who distinguish between social gender and biological sex probably stay quiet, else the radtrans activists will make them pariahs in their community. I would say radtrans are as bad as any other “rad” group.

I grew up watching tennis in Martina's era and always loved her, didn't fully understand and appreciate her as a youngun, but I remember a sense that she was a rare person, someone unafraid to be herself and speak her mind.

Given everything she's been through and done in her life, Martina Navratilova is a god among mortals.

On a lighter note, she's said to have a good sense of humor, was at some ceremony with (hockey legend) Wayne Gretzky) and told him -- 100% deadpan -- that the two of them should have a baby together because it would be an incredible athlete. Gretzky apparently believed her and was shocked.

And she was said to have argued a line call, been told by a male ref that "it was 8 inches long" and responded, "Men have been telling women that for centuries."

R211 She sounds like a great lady to hang out with - her straightforwardness and wit are admirable (although I have a feeling her bluntness might be a little too much for the average American.) She’s very funny; the type who could insult me to my face, yet not offend me.

It's sad how this is now affecting high school sports. These boys who identify as female are winning sports competition, hence pushing aside the bio females who are robbed of a sports scholarship.

So what's going to happen next? A transgender competing at Wimbledon to get a prize worth thousands of dollars? When it comes to money, then women have to come together and speak up. Forget being politically correct.

R213 I doubt this will ever happen because the optics of noticeably larger, male-bodied players against petite bio women are horrible. Both the cyclist and hulking Hannah the handball player did irreparable harm to the trans community’s image because their size and overly-aggressive behavior was, well, typically male!

What radfems fail to realize that a large proportion of cis men - who they paint as evil sexist monsters - are also parents of daughters who would potentially be harmed by or lose scholarships to superior male-bodied players. These men alone outnumber LGBT, and they will be the ones to end this, not a divisive group of radfems who’ve sold out to the alt.right.

Stop lying, R214. Your use of the unnecessary prefix "cis" gives you away.

Has the Margaret Court Troll chimed in??

Respect.

That's all I have to say about Navratilova's statement.

I used “cis” as shorthand for bio men who LIVE AS MEN, R215. I suppose you dislike my use of “hetero” as well.

C*s is a slur. You will stop using it right now.

OK R219 - I apologize. “Cisgender,” then. I don’t give a damn about being called “cis” myself, but I’m a straight-passing dude who does not get mistaken for the other gender (as femme men and butch women often are,) so I can see why some might consider “cis” a slur, especially if they’ve been confused for being trans themselves.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

G*nd*r is hate speech against women and gay men. You will drop that from your vocabulary as well.

Per r214, trans rights = men’s rights.

Got it. Thanks.

It's the lesbians who support the Trans is what I can not understand.

Why would any woman support men stealing the mantle of womanhood from women?

Ask Lea Delaria and her ugly bull dyke friends.

Athlete Ally has dumped Martina and written a very patronizing public statement about their attempt to "educate" her. Tell them what you think!

Athlete "Ally" is a homophobic handmaid. The word "cunt" was invented to describe people like that.

Any "men's rights" movement that doesn't support gay rights worldwide is not a "men's rights" movement.

The T trumps and takes complete precedence over any other SJW issue. I believe T holds dominion over black racial issues. Gays, women and children are particularly vulnerable. WE HAVE TO STOP THIS MADNESS NOW!

Forget "cis," I hate R220 for using "radfem." (And for claiming to be a "straight-passing dude." Sure, Jan.)

[quote] I believe T holds dominion over black racial issues.

So they can use it to justify the sterilization of gay black men.

R231, very astute. These trans and their defenders are scary people.

[quote] There is one simple fact that shows the absolute advantage the MtTs have. That fact is that there is not one bit of controversy on the FtT side because no FtT can get anywhere near a men's team. If there was no biological advantage from having gone through male puberty, there would be just as many FtTs taking places on men's teams and winning men's competitions after slamming some testosterone for a few years. There have been zero.

I once asked an SJW why FtTs weren't having the same kind of athletic success as MtTs. Xir response was that there probably are, but no one's noticed because they all just pass as "cis" men. There is no reasoning with these idiots.

"What radfems fail to realize that a large proportion of cis men - who they paint as evil sexist monsters - are also parents of daughters who would potentially be harmed by or lose scholarships to superior male-bodied players. These men alone outnumber LGBT, and they will be the ones to end this, not a divisive group of radfems who’ve sold out to the alt.right."

This, 100%. You're already seeing it on Twitter and Facebook. Men will not stand for these trans nutjobs trampling on daddy's little princess.

They think any correction of false information is hatred. You can't reason with people like that.

". There is no reasoning with these idiots."

Exactly! That is why fight them instead of trying to win them over. They will never concede or accept another person's view. I am convinced they are on the spectrum or just retarded.

I'm convinced they are willfully malicious and bigoted.

That too r238 and so ruthless.

R237 Actually I really think that they get off on it. It gives them a huge thrill to intimidate and trample on real women. It is definitely a mental illness. They cannot compete with real women when it comes to actually being a woman, so they revert to what they know best, BEING MEN, and they bully and intimidate them instead. The irony is that they actually hate women, despite claiming to be one.

Straight women will be next on their conquer list.

R234 Exactly. Look at the failure of the WNBA. With the exception of tennis, which caters to the male gaze, most women’s sports are intended for the development of fitness, teamwork, and leadership skills, while men’s pro sports and the minor leagues that feed into them are big business - a lucrative form of entertainment and merchandizing. Peppering male leagues with biological females would be hazardous to both the women AND the teams.

Ziegler of Outsports came across as a total ass on TV last night. He has a lot of nerve slamming Martina for anything whatsoever.

Those who can do...those who can't do shit write about those who they are jealous of. What pissed me off the most was that he stuck to the excuse that "recent history and stats show that transwomen are not winning all the gold medals/trophies in women's sports."

YET jackass. This is a relatively new phenomenon. Then he said, "Well Renee Richards was 40 years ago." As if that is even close to what is happening today in high school and Olympic Level sports. I hate him.

Renée Richards actually had the surgery, though.

“The surgery?” Did Richards get a complete skeletal replacement?

True R244. But that is not what I meant in my comment. She was totally committed to her "womanhood," yes.

But she was also a grown mature woman. Today you have dudes in the prime of their lives stepping into girl's sports in high school and women's sports in college and world competitions---an in turn robbing women of scholarships and other compensation. Dr. Richards would not have doe that even of she could have. She was not about taking sports' awards away from bio women IMO.

O.K. I've posted this before but apparently it needs to be said again.

When I was first working in L.A. I was a waiter at a Beverley Hills bistro. Piazza Rodeo.

It was the start of mt P.A. experience,

Martina was a regular.

This woman could not be more different than what people expect.

Smart, warm and really funny.

A truly great gal.

R243 it's so weird that Ziegler is sticking his nose in this matter. When he ran Outsports he mostly ignored gay female athletes.

The thing with Renée Richards is that female athletics could choose to bend the rules to let Richards play (though unfair to women) because transsexuals interested in sports were so very rare.

But now that transgenders are much more common it is evident that they can't peacefully co-exist with women and must separate into their own category and demand their own facilities and accommodations.

Liberal media outlets like CNN really need to shift fast on this issue because the Repubs are ready to exploit it. Dems need to also wake up.

Donald Trump Jr.‏ Talk about getting ratioed. Even CNN's audience finally had enough. Have dialog about what @Martina actually said and not simply about some inevitable SJW criticism.

Have any of our politicians on the left spoken out for Martina?

R251 haven't seen any yet. I'd also like to know where the professional gay athletes who have been celebrated by Athlete Ally and Outsports stand.

Ugh R252. It's a sad day when you have the bottom of the Republican barrel defending Martina but crickets from the left.

Trump Jr. is just the beginning. The Repugs are going to run with this, and let's face it-- they'd be fools not to.

Outsports is a joke and the trans editor that’s leading this is in the same vein of Stefonknee and Danielle moscato. This has expanded far greater then rad fems having an issue with it and just on Twitter almost all of the comments have been supportive of Martina.

The article about andraya yearwood being framed as a hero (the Connecticut trans teen who runs tack and regularly beats bio girls by wide margins) was almost universally ratioed and negatively received. Yearwood wears a wig and women’s clothing but has had zero medical intervention.

At last years Connecticut state track championships in the 100m race biological males won 5 of the 6 medals in the boys and girls championship

Piers Morgan You pathetic, gutless bullies. All @Martina did was state the obvious.

God help me, I agree with Piers. Did pigs fly?

Dr. Debra Soh Much respect to @Martina for reading up on this issue & then standing her ground @guardian

Piers is triple C: a closted, conflicted, Catholic. To his credit, he’s shut down homophobes in the past, so I’m not surprised he’s standing up for Martina. Still, he skews conservative on many issues. And for God’s sake, Piers, drop the “straight” charade!

I'm really sorry to double post,

We as a community seem to not support/tear down our own.

This is a good woman speaking the truth.

I'd really like to think that we are the smart people.

Let's act like it.

Lecture over.

Love Martina. And, thankfully, we can all just ignore the Tranny Troll here who keeps pretending to be oh so reasonable...while bitching about the radfems every single post.

Women are not the problem here, Tranny.

Even my union SAG-AFTRA has fallen sway to the transtapo, featuring Laverne Cox in as many of their labor campaigns and videos made for causes they support as possible it seems. I'm horrified that Cox is always called a "hero" seemingly because she exhibits strict gender-conforming dress and behavior, which is seemingly the goal of the trans movement. Strict gender conformity, or else!

Lots of lefty straight people are afraid to not to be pushing DIVERSITY over all, and always highlighting Laverne Cox is kind of a free spin. I'd have more respect if the trans movement pushed non-passing, less convincing "trans" people like this Dr. McKinnon person.

R262 eh to be fair I think that’s a little hard and it puts them between a rock and a hard place. If the push the Rachel’s instead of the Laverne’s then I’m sure you would all make a deal about how “see, they don’t even LOOK like women!! What’s the point of calling yourself one if you don’t try to look and dress like one!!”

So I get and agree with your first point, but the final one isn’t really fair tbh

Isn’t OINTB ending though? I don’t see Laverne working much after the show ends as an actress she’s terrible.

Say it ain't so. Pink News reports Roxane Gay says that "A lot of feminists are very comfortable being anti-trans."

Holy smokes, Rachel is butch. How does Laverne Cox play into this? It’s like comparing Tig Notaro to Kim Kardashian.

Roxane gay was the one who chastised a worker at McDonald’s because she asked her if she wanted a girl or boy toy with her happy meal.

[quote]Ask Lea Delaria and her ugly bull dyke friends.

I don’t follow, R226 Are you implying that Lea’s on the spectrum or transitioning?

R210 bitching about "radicals" is a fucking moron. Radical means "the root of", as in, the root of feminism, which is female oppression. Learn about something before making stupid comments.

No one is allied with the right, especially considering many radical feminists happen to be lesbians, black women, etc., which includes detransistioners (ex trans), and even normal trans people, that have been kicked out for not conforming to these loud mouthed assholes running the trans movement.

Maybe if the left quit silencing their own, they wouldn't need to use the only platforms available.

[quote]Maybe if the left quit silencing their own, they wouldn't need to use the only platforms available.

“Their own?” Way to out yourself, deplorable.

R268 no, she is very pro trans

I her youth, Martina used to get lots of flack for being “manly” herself and her rivals accused her of doping. Flash forward to today, when it’s OK for players with a Y chromosome and hormone treatments to compete in women’s sports. No wonder she’s pissed!

R270 You can fuck right off with that. I rather kill myself than associate with right wing lunatics. You missed the point genius, people are being deplatformed and called alt right Nazis (deplorable) by their own party, for wanting a debate on a serious topic.

The left, MY politics, for my entire life, needs to address this without shunning and alienating people, like me, that disagree with the current position on gender.

When lesbians are being tossed from LGB organizations for giving a reasonable opinion, do you not see a problem?

Looks like once again trans activists are trying to shut down the discussion here. I haven’t seen delaria or Roxane gay say anything about Martina’s comments. I doubt too many high profile people will speak out against Martina’s comments as she has overwhelming support from people from all political sides.

It's a problem when women are being bullied and silenced for speaking up. The tragic part is the media-- which is supposed to be open--- uses censorship. It did not show Martina's view or even mention the vast support she's getting. It is weird how the media is playing along and is part of the problem.

And there it is with the obsessive f/f to shut voices down. The damn fascist little trans trolls can't handle any debate. If it's not going their way, they enforce silencing people. Who's acting like a fucking deplorable again? Smells like deplorable behavior to me. Was it the loudest CUNT in here? I'd guess yes.

R269 Sorry to correct you, but the use of “radical” in this context means, according to Merriam-Webster:

a: different from the usual or traditional : EXTREME

b : favoring extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions

c : associated with political views, practices, and policies of extreme change

d : advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs

i.e. “the radical right.”

As cool as the “root” definition is, it applies mainly to math and science, not political ideology.

Ewww @ all this Navratilova praise. She's an insufferable attention whore who's said a LOT of dumb shit (not this but in general).

Sweetie she’s one of the greatest tennis players of all time and has actually walked the walk as an activist, someone who paid dearly for coming out early, and considering what she stared down in Czechoslovakia a few fascist activists is kids stuff to her.

She’s got every right to be an attention whore.

Martina deserves some respect after all the homophobia and asshole men like McEnroe, Agassi, etc. she’s had to deal with during her career. She truly is a trailblazer and a much-needed role model for young girls. She’s still trying to protect their best interests.

R277, Still incorrect usage. Radical feminism, adopted the original meaning, from the 1600's.

radical (adj.) late 14c., in a medieval philosophical sense, from Late Latin radicalis "of or having roots," from Latin radix (genitive radicis) "root" (from PIE root *wrād- "branch, root"). Meaning "going to the origin, essential" is from 1650s. Radical sign in mathematics is from 1680s.

Political sense of "reformist" (via notion of "change from the roots") is first recorded 1802 (n.), 1817 (adj.), of the extreme section of the British Liberal party (radical reform had been a current phrase since 1786); meaning "unconventional" is from 1921. U.S. youth slang use is from 1983, from 1970s surfer slang meaning "at the limits of control." Radical chic is attested from 1970; popularized, if not coined, by Tom Wolfe. Radical empiricism coined 1897 by William James (see empiricism).

One of the comments from the Roxane Gay article above:

[quote]Trans women are women in the same way that hot dogs are dogs.

Ha.

How long do you think it will take for the T to pluck some statement and decide Roxane Gay is more of an enemy than, say, Mike Pence, and attempt to go after her?

Huh? She is the most pro trans ever. She hides behind the butch facade so people think she is -gay- but she is a garden variety bisexual who can barely hide her loathing for lesbians. She is 3rd wave feminism’s cause du jour. fat, black, mental health issues, bisexual and sex positive; she doesn’t get much more woke than that.

She’s safe

R281 Interesting! It’s easy to confuse the militancy and rebellion of this type of feminism with other “radical” (in the sense of “reformist”) political movements. In some minds, Valerie Solanas is what a “rad fem” looks like - angry, threatening, vindictive. I see now, as you explain it, that “radical” refers to the “root” of female oppression, instead of the “extreme change” involved in ripping it out by dismantling the patriarchy. Both definitions seem valid, giving “radical feminism” dual meaning.

[quote]She hides behind the butch facade so people think she is -gay- but she is a garden variety bisexual who can barely hide her loathing for lesbians.

Oh dear! I better check my garden for those lesbian-loathing bisexuals.

^^^While you’re at it weed out the zinnias and chrysanthemums, they really hate lesbians.

Is a mob gonna go after these folks with pitchforks? The old school T are not having this either.

Maybe we are SLOWLY approaching Peak Trans. Even on super Progressive DailyKos people are questioning whether Martina is really wrong. Which has the Trans people on the thread screaming Transphobia and bigotry. Bringing up fucking Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King to show that being a man doesn't give you advantages in sport? LOL. And the amount of bullshit science they are spouting is unbelievable.

And, of course, the whole thing starts by calling Martina a TERF.

[quote]which seems to be: divide and conquer among the gays, and make the left/democrats in general look bad.

They do that to themselves without the GOP’s help.

Bis and hets hate lesbians because they refuse to submit to men.

Too bad the Olympics are not this year, R289, those visuals are going to have a big impact.

I'm not sure if this independent group is likely to work long-term, but who knows? At this point, we need SOME form of change.

[quote]Bis and hets hate lesbians because they refuse to submit to men.

R291 Well, you yourself are bi, het, a gay man or a robot, so you’re either a “submitter” or one of the submitted-to. You definitely are not one of “them” lesbians judging by the way you type. Which one are you?

Paula Radcliffe comes out in support of Martina.

^^ Another athlete from the U.K. I’ve noticed a groundswell of support for Martina across the pond, while American women have not given her much support. I’m curious as to why there’s such a difference in the attitude of Great Britains compared to the states?

Love her. Always have. Always rooted for her against Chrissy. And yes she has aged incredibly well. Ugly souls age ugly, like Trump. I also agree with her. So there is that.

R296 Maybe because we're a tiny country in comparison and we've had some serious joined up activism around these issues for at least 2 years now. The US via WoLF is only just getting started and has a harder job due to the political system and the massive state differences in policies and attitudes etc..

I think that people in the US are terrified of supporting Martina, even if they agree with what she has to say. People with much less courage than she possesses have seen how swift and brutal the attacks from social media can be. Twitter, FB, and IG don't do nuance and subtlety very well. Martina's position is eminently reasonable, as Paula Radcliffe at R295 recognizes. But, you just need a few SJWs to find that what someone says is offensive, and then the whole Twitter-verse comes charging in behind them.

In fact, the SJWs would likely police supporters of Martina harder than they would go after her. They can dismiss Martina as a "one-off" crazy lesbian to whom no one gives any credence. However, when she has backup and support, that becomes a much more difficult argument to make.

Billie Jean king and Chris evert both just put out tweets that essentially back Martina.

Here’s Billie Jean’s tweet:

... And Chris Evert’s tweet:

Then r277 nothing is more RADICAL than allowing MEN into WOMEN’S spaces.

Bio sex can’t be changed. Anyone who says otherwise is:

1. Lying,

2. Deluded,

3. RADICAL

Women’s bathrooms, shelters, athletics, etc., belong to WOMEN. And men are not women.

Yes, r286, like the ones who ambushed a lesbian outside the Grey Fox Pub in St. Louis last June (pride month no less).

The bartender kicked her out when she reported being bullied. He said he didn’t want any “dyke drama” & kicked her out where she got beat up by “queer” women who hate lesbians.

The bar & Gay Media said the lesbian deserved it because she said something “transphobic.”

R284 R286 R291 It sounds like you are trying to pit LGB against each other AND against straight people by pointing out the bad apples in the bunch and using them to demonize an entire group. Are you saying that anyone who is not a Gold Star™ Lesbian supports the trans agenda?

^^And R304. R286 is my response.

BTW, Chris Evert is as straight as a board, and she supports Martina.

R304 is in response to r286’s mocking of the danger & harm lesbians face from the pro-Ts.

The gay community is useless if it doesn’t not stand up for lesbians beaten outside of a gay bar...or lesbians & their son murdered by a straight man who “identifies” as a lesbian.

Say their names:

[italic]Patricia Wright

Charlotte Reed

Benny Diambu-Wright [/italic]

R308 How on earth is being bisexual “pro T?”

Being Roxanne Gay is pro-T & anti-lesbian, r309

^^OK - then please tell me what a “garden variety bisexual” is, R284.

Not many pro trans people on this thread. Where are all the transphobia! people?

Martina has sent them scrambling to the corner to lick their wounds R312

Well, she is Czech after all, lol. She does not mess around!

R312 That could be why trolls looking for a fight are resorting to bashing bisexuals, straight people and gay men on this thread instead.

Where did Chris or Billie Jean King show support for Martina? Those tweets were very evasive of an opinion.

Both tweets are pro-science and research (in other words, pro-logic and pro-realism), and neither one criticizes Martina.

Chris re-tweeted a Fair Play for Women post, R316. Makes her stance pretty clear, if you ask me.

The PGA held a men vs. women event a few years ago and the women were demolished and the event was never held again.

All the talk about Caster Semenya and her issues she doesn’t actually hold the world record in the 800 it was set in 1983 and hasn’t been broken.

Linked is a guys twitter account who put Semenyas time against high school boys state championships in Rhode Island, Massachusetts and the NCAA division 1 track championships. Caster doesn’t have a first place time with the high school boys and and comes no where close to the D1 men.

1st Rhode Island state championships

Massachusetts state championships.

Also bolded are the 2-4th place finishers at the Olympics

2018 NCAA 800 m track finals.

R311 r315 I am r284 not “bashing” bisexuals. And my point about Roxanne gay is that many who don’t follow her, or just see some of her tweets think she is a lesbian by her appearance. I have seen many people think that. Just saying she isn’t, that’s all. She is just a run of the mill bisexual who happens to be low key shitty to lesbians, not implying that it is common of bisexual women to be so as well. Get the difference?

R272 Not to derail the conversation, but I was a big tennis fan back in the Martina vs Chrissy era, and what you said is absolutely true.

It must be dumbfounding to many of the men (who were the ones back then to constantly rag on Martina's femininity) to see that she has aged so beautifully and is now IMHO better looking than Chris. She really is a terrific person.

They both look great!

This has 1.7 million views on YT

R91 this is what Glenn Greenwald tweeted:

This is pathetic. @Martina is one of the greatest LGBT pioneers of the 20th Century. She was openly & proudly gay, traveling with a trans woman as her coach, in the 1980s - the era of Reagan & AIDS - and sacrificed enormously for it. Punishing her for debating this is shameful:

So what has the cyclopath had to say lately? Has he apologized to Martina yet?

R327 Has a trans ever apologised for anything?

Quote from idiot Boy George:

I love @Martina but I disagree. It's not just gender that gives a person power, agility or speed. You could argue that anyone who lives too near snow has an advantage on the slopes. Or if you come from Africa and running is in your blood? It's too much of a generalisation.

R329 funny that he supports trans but is horrifically biphobic and doesn’t believe that male bisexuals exist.....

Now NBC is doing the same thing as CNN by not acknowledging the widespread support that Martina has gotten and pretending that her statements are "controversial".

I would love to know why NBC is especially so pro-trans. There has to be a reason behind it.

John McEnroe got into some hot water recently for publicly stating that men outperform women in tennis (Billie Jean King sides with him on this issue, despite what some ignorant commentators have stated). Unfortunately, Martina took exception to his argument - that he makes more money than she because the market favors top athletes - and that it’s the market that determines an athlete’s pay, not sexism.

At the very least, John and Martina agree that men and women perform at different levels, and it would be a class act if he extended an olive branch in her defense. We’ll see.

I do think the media would change its tune if a world-class straight male athlete came to Martina's defense.

Boy George actually criticised the whole trans idea of make up/clothes making you the opposite sex thing a while back on twitter. Maybe he got a pile on over that one so has decided to play it safe.

It's a ridiculous one to try an double down on though. To claim that you see no physical disparity between the sexes is flat earth territory.

If anyone is NOT an expert on professional sports, It’s Boy George. Yet he throws his big stupid hat into the ring! Thanks for the laugh, R329.

Lots and lots and lots of heroin and coke. I love BG as a singer, storyteller, and DJ, but he's out of his depth here.

R333 I'm sure Andy Murray and his mother have said things in the past. I'm half expecting him to jump in at some point although I think anyone who isn't yet retired is still keeping quiet because there is a strong chance they will lose sponsorships or even face disqualification for 'hate speech'.

R337 I'm not sure any of the Murrays have said anything about trans as the issue hasn't really come up in tennis in recent years.

I'm a huge tennis fan and willing to be proven wrong but I can't think of a trans tennis player since Renée Richards.

Thinks for the input fatty BG who i'm going to go out on a limb and say hasn't done an athletic thing in his life.

[quote]Thinks for the input fatty BG who i'm going to go out on a limb and say hasn't done an athletic thing in his life.

You are wrong:

The next wave of this insanity is Neutrois: A gender identity that is essentially that of nothing.

Doctors remove all external genitalia to give your pubic area a completely smooth look, like a Barbie doll.

What letter do these freaks want to add to the Alphabet Soup?

R338 I found the tweet. She commented on something in January and got piled on for it.

Actually reading the thread only one person called her transphobic but I knew I'd seen something somewhere about her taking a view on trans issues.

Handcuffing a rent boy to a radiator is practically cardio.

Comment from Jason Collins:

Watching @Martina helped me when I was young man coming to terms with my true self- she is one of my idols. I agree with @BillieJeanKing and think that there’s an opportunity for all of us to educate ourselves and listen to the science behind transgender women competing in sport.

So what do you all think about the comments from Jason Collins and BJK at R345? Is that meant to be in support of Martina? It's hard to tell since the Ts always claim science is on their side and have infiltrated that arena.

Seems like fence sitting, Chris Evert is currently doing the same.

By obfuscating language the T has made it sound more complicated than it is. If someone claimed that men have no inherent biological advantage over women in sport nobody would have any qualms about calling it out but the minute you use the word transwomen people take leave of their senses.

Let me put it to you this way, R346 : If if someone were to say “Let’s wait and see what science has to say about flat-earth theory,” they are definitely on team round-earth.

I liked this tweet in response to BJK's tweet:

No science in the world changes a man into a woman. Women have fought tooth and nail for their rights to sport and sex segregated spaces. Entertaining ideologically tainted garbage science doesn’t change DNA. Women are born, not worn.

[quote]Seems like fence sitting

Only because the typical back and forth shrieking consists of "YOU'RE LITERALLY KILLING ME WITH YOUR VIOLENCE!" and "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SUCH THING AS TRANS OF ANY KIND EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!"

When the article is a nuanced as the differences between declared transgender and post-surgery transsexual and the physiological realities, it may feel a bit less spectacular. But perhaps we could keep the intensity on a nice fair playing field.

It's 2019 and transgenderism/gender dysphoria is still listed as a mental illness. Can the LGBTQ community employ a little more caution just in case transgenderism is a true mental illness? At least slow down until trans activists settle on a coherent, logical message. The whole trans activism movement is full of contradictions and is dividing the LGBTQ community.

[quote]slow down until trans activists settle on a coherent, logical message

[quote]Linked is a guys twitter account who put Semenyas time against high school boys state championships in Rhode Island, Massachusetts and the NCAA division 1 track championships. Caster doesn’t have a first place time with the high school boys and and comes no where close to the D1 men.

Her linked time is 1:55. Why are they comparing it to college male times? How does she compare to elite female college women who run the 800m? The fastest woman in the 2018 NCAA finals for the 800 was at almost 2:02. These are the top three in the "women's" 800 meter race in the 2016 Olympics. Speaks for itself.

The IOC opened the floodgates when they allowed Caster (who has testes instead of ovaries or uterus - but I.D.s as female) to compete in 2012 and again in 2016. Honestly, it was exciting to see her race - she’s an amazing athlete, but she trounced the female competition. You can really see how testosterone affected her bone structure - the extreme forehead bossing is typically male - her entire body is, with the exception of external male genitals. Her inclusion was extremely unfair to the other racers.

R353 That photo is the future of “female” athletics, lol.

R353 holy fuck the one on the right.....

Please note that this is the very same person who tore into the womyn for speaking at the Heritage Foundation.

R357 Fox News knows what they are doing. I'm sure they will be perfectly polite. All they have to do is let "Rachel" talk. Despite knowing its Fox News, Rachel's big ego couldn't resist the invitation.

Because r353 even with casters condition she’s still a biological female and would struggle to beat high school boys. There have been numerous articles that claim there is zero difference between bio men and women/trans women including the sb nation article about Andraya Yearwood, someone who has not had any kind of medical intervention. That’s simply isn’t true. Even with the elevated testosterone, casters female body still couldn’t beat bio males.

I just can't understand this Semenya thing. Does s/he have female DNA or not? I would think that would be impossible, since s/he has un-descended testicles. The bottom line is DNA. If it's female, s/he should be allowed to compete against other females, no matter how high her/his testosterone levels are. Some women have higher levels of testosterone, but they are still women.

This has to be one of my favorite delusional claims of the day. I am not a fan of Big Brother whatsoever but come on!

R360, I believe that Semenya's DNA results have never been made public. It is generally assumed that she has some intersex condition that is common in the South African town she comes from.

Thanks for the response, R362. I've been following several intersexed people on Twitter, and they say that all intersexed people have either male or female DNA. So, I think that if she is a female intersexed person, she should be allowed to compete with females. To me, that is not the same as a male doing it.

R360 I don't think the exact status of the particular intersex condition have been made public. However attached is an image from the AIS wiki page of a group of women that have that particular DSD which commonly involves both internal testes and an underdeveloped vagina/missing cervix.

I wouldn't describe any of them as having the strong masculine presentation Semenya has which makes me suspect her genetics are more likely to be a male DSD even though I can understand her considering herself female if that is what she was brought up to believe.

Without the IOC being upfront about this it's hard to to have a full discussion but I acknowledge that Semenya also has a right to keep medical info private.

[quote]Being Roxanne Gay is pro-T & anti-lesbian

Also pro-elastic waistband.

I though Semenya had a Y chomosome, but was raised female because she had no external genitalia, and her parents did not know until she went through puberty. If she does have an XX karyotype, then hormones alone made her develop internal testicles? That blows my mind, honestly.

R366, no , I think people have assumed that she has a Y chromosome, but that has never been confirmed. She was raised as female and has the external appearance of a female--she has shown herself naked to competitors when they challenged her. In the place where she comes from, she, and people like her, were always referred to as women, albeit very unusual ones.

Men and women who suffer from physical disorders of sex development (DSD) are rare. Don't let trans activists hide behind them, or use them as a distraction technique.

Regardless of Semenya situation, there's no doubt that she has advantages over the female athletes because of her intersex condition. She can show her vagenis all she wants to her competitors, but she is part dude.

UK DLers, who is this Emma Freud who backed up Linehan? Is she very famous? Is she related to You-Know-Who?

R370, Emma Freud is Sigmund Freud's great-granddaughter. More info:

Semenya has testes but no ovaries and no uterus. He is a man with unformed external genitals. If you know how babies form, they all start out female and "turn" male with the introduction of testosterone at a specific point during development. At that point, the female genital anatomy transforms into male by forming a suture where the labia form into the taint/scrotum (that's why you guys have a sensitive seam there) and what would have been the clitoris forms itself into a penis.

There is definitely a Y chromosome present in Semenya. The genital formation process just stopped at some point before the suturing was complete so the "vagina" didn't completely disappear and the penis never formed. The testicles he has in his body producing testosterone every single day stayed there because there was nowhere for them to descend to in order to become functional. There is no menstruation. There are no breasts. This is a man whose genitals didn't bake correctly. That is all.

The mental contortions required to produce R361's article are hilarious. Yet another article on trans that sounds straight out of The Onion.

The article at R361 should have been correctly titled, "Facial Recognition Software Works". The rest of the article literally turns reality on its head and then beats its ass while laughing like a lunatic. Maybe the facial hair, protuberant forehead, and pronounced Adam's apple were confusing it. Insanity.

Some of the leaders of Germany's Green Party.

OMG, R375. This is pure insanity. I thought the one in the front in the picture linked there was holding some sort of weird trans sex toy.

[quote]OK, give me the 5 pronouns. Go on, I double dare you....

Easy peasy. It. It. It. It. It. Unless we make WTF a pronoun.

The one in the back of r375's photo — I had no idea Sting had transitioned.

"The one in the back of [R375]'s photo — I had no idea Sting had transitioned. sorry to mention your deadname, Sting"

She's called "Tickle" now-- as is fitting for a lay-dee!

British TV had three men who think they're women, but no actual women, on to discuss Martina's op-ed; if you think that the Green Party Fraus at R375 are babes, check out these beauties.

Can anyone who has access to Martina's op-ed, copy and paste it here? Only subscribers can read the full article.

The one on the far right in the video talked about in R379 is one of the old-fashioned transsexuals. The other two are obvious loons of the autogynophile brand. This is one of the first times I've seen a video that very clearly shows the difference. It's worth a look. The old-fashioned T on the right who actually just looks like an ugly, awkward librarian instead of a former football player/boxer in a dress (the other two, literally) agrees with Martina that MtTs shouldn't compete with women because of the unchangeable biological traits and, at one point, says there wasn't much muscle loss during the hormone treatments. The other two, who still look like they have the muscles of males, of course, disagreed.

Interesting video to show what we're talking about when we say the trans community has gone insane. Just point people to the two on the left.

Emma Freud is also the daughter of Clement Freud. In the 60s he was one of the coolest men in Britain.

That's him between Christopher Lee and James Coburn

R372 Wow. I can only imagine how devastating it was for Semenya to discover she’s genetically male after many years believing to be a girl (I’m sorry - but if you have a Y chromosome, you are biologically male no matter how many of those X chromosomes you have).

I would use continue to use female pronouns for her though, because she’s probably been through enough trauma already, and was basically “transed” against consent through the ignorance of her parents and the medical establishment. It’s no wonder the genetic test results have been kept under wraps, and I don’t blame her for continuing to live as a woman instead of a man with no penis.

Regardless, the IOC needs to bring back sex testing and the “no Y chromosome” rule in women’s Olympics. I’m surprised Martina supported Semenya - it goes against her belief of “fair play,” but perhaps she didn’t have all the facts at the time. If the line isn’t drawn at essential biology, the doors will remain open to anyone who “feels” like a woman.

Q***r is a slur. Boycott ANYONE who uses it or defends its use.

The New York Posts editorializes about "the insane gay backlash against Martina Navratilova."

"the insane gay backlash against Martina Navratilova."

Could there be a better example of how they just don't get it? There is NO "gay backlash" against Martina. Every gay man and lesbian I've seen on social media supports her. The backlash is coming from the TRAs, and ONLY the TRAs.

This totally misleading headline needs to be called out!

r385 Literal fake news.

Wasn’t there a study recently that reported that over 75% of trans women could not suppress their T levels to female levels even with drugs?

Chase Strangio tried to play the race card with Glenn grenwald and bring up Martina’s criticisms of Serena Williams, which have had zero to do with race. He was shut down quickly but tried to argue about insersectionality.

The Post has only had our back when we get on the wrong side of someone else they hate.

Chase Strangio is a self-loathing traitor.

I'm pretty sure Chase is a tranny too, unless you know any cis-men who get periods.

MEN. DON'T. HAVE. VAGINAS.

Censure and bulling on stronge people only make them more determined about their ideas. They messed with the wrong lesbian this time.

And fuck the "queers" press, most of the gays are with Martina

"You think your period sucks? Imagine being a dude with one."

Jesus Christ, what is with this insatiable need to constantly deny, downplay, or ridicule the oppression, suffering, and lived experiences of women? How is such blatant misogyny tolerated and even glorified by those who claim to be "progressive"?

Strangio, you are not oppressed because you "feel like a dude." Absolutely no one cares about your internal drama. You are oppressed because you are female and a lesbian. Someday you will wake up to this truth, but there will be no one there to support you, because both your "trans siblings" and the sisters you betrayed will be long gone.

R388 I’m guessing this is when Martina criticized Serena’s belief that get away with bad behavior - like the boys do - equals gender equality, and Martina argued that women should maintain the higher ground while men should IMPROVE their behavior instead. I 100% agree with her on this.

Here's video of the guy (back before he wasn't pretending to be a woman and acting like the entitled douchebro he is) who got the English mother arrested for misgendering.

He also called the police on Irish comedy writer, Graham Linehan. He's filed a lawsuit against both of them. Against Linehan for misgendering, dead naming and harassment - the chutzpah!

The woman's lawsuit defense might be the Scopes trial that this issue needs because, she is claiming that since he's a mammal specifically a human, he's one of two sexes and can't change sex.

[quote] '[Mrs Scottow] holds a genuine and reasonable belief, which is fundamental to her existence and worthy of respect in a democratic society that a mammal, specifically a human, cannot practically change sex.'

For those of you who don't remember the Scopes trial, it was in the US and about the teaching of evolution in school, i.e., about whether schools should teach science instead of religious belief (I'm simplifying so look it up).

The trial is in England, but no doubt will make waves here, especially if those of us who are disgusted with the Trans-Jacking of gay and women's rights make it in issue.

Alabama man! He’s quick! He’s strong! He’s active!

Pam shriver is backing her as well.

R391 Well of course she is. She even gave birth. I feel truly sorry for the child.

fuck 'em all....she is so correct.

wtf with these bitches??

you are wrong.

so just stand there and marinate in your wrongness and STFU OK?

Spiked: In defence of Martina Navratilova

Trans activists are carrying on like a religious sect.

Interesting R396. I have seen comments on Twitter of people stating that nobody is going to force them to recognize trans or call people by preferred pronouns because it goes against their religious beliefs, which teach that there are men and women, God made them that way therefore there is no changing your sex so they will not recognize it. I wonder who would win if a situation like this ever goes to court.

R402 there are plenty of people who are not religious saying the same thing. They say forcing them to believe in the trans concept is the same as making them say that the earth is flat.

Have there been any arrests over pronoun usage in Canada yet? There was a bill that was recently passed that added trans as a protected group, and supposedly criminalizes “incorrect” pronoun usage (or does it mean “intentional harassment” by repeatedly misgendering them?)

R176, that's Medium, where anyone can publish articles. Who is Helen Saxby? probably not a journalist.

[quote] I have seen comments on Twitter of people stating that nobody is going to force them to recognize trans or call people by preferred pronouns because it goes against their religious beliefs, which teach that there are men and women, God made them that way therefore there is no changing your sex so they will not recognize it. I wonder who would win if a situation like this ever goes to court.

R402 “Recognize” is vague - it could mean free speech, allowing use of restrooms, providing services, etc. There’s a big difference between not using a certain pronoun and refusing to rent an apartment to a trans person or refusing them health care.

This sounds like part of the “religious freedom restoration” movement in the states that targets LGB people as well, so I’d be wary of these individuals, especially the ones who flip out if you say “Happy Holidays” to them instead of “Merry Christmas.”

Yes I know that R406, I was just referring to the trans pronoun situation and wondering what would happen if someone cited religion as their reason for not recognizing trans/their preferred pronouns. Not the other stuff.

Trans is a religion.

R407 I don’t think they’d get arrested for misgendering someone unless they were yelling at them thru a bullhorn, harassing them, or causing a public disturbance. For instance, I’ve never been arrested for refusing to say “Merry Christmas” - at the worst, I get dirty looks. (Religious freedom goes both ways, despite what Fox News reports.)

For the few Christians who persist, I politely remind them that Jesus was not even born in December, and that ends it, lol. I’ve been misgendered myself and am not trans, but it didn’t destroy my life. We all need to grow a thicker skin and learn verbal defense techniques. As the saying goes, “my word is my sword.”

Look, we admire her for having integrity, for being direct and honest. So it's a shame she has to face this fake outrage, but she's doing what's she's always done: speaking honestly. I don't really care much about trans issues, but I don't think Martina should be attacked the way she has been over this.

Article is behind a paywall.

The Telegraph: By branding Martina Navratilova a bigot, the trans lobby shows how intolerant and extreme it has become

artina Navratilova is one of the last people you’d expect to be accused of intolerance. Arguably still the world’s most famous lesbian, the tennis player neither concealed nor apologised for her sexuality at a time when many gay people were afraid to come out to family, never mind a global sporting audience. She also gave a coaching job to Renée Richards, a player on the women’s circuit who was born Richard Raskind.

This week, Navratilova was sacked by Athlete Ally, a US campaign for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people in sport. The group has accused her of “transphobia” for questioning whether a transgender woman, born and raised male and retaining a full male body, should be allowed to compete in women’s sport simply because they have taken drugs to reduce their testosterone levels.

That meets the criteria of many sporting authorities, but troubles a lot of people, including Navratilova. They note that underlying male biology means transgender women build up muscle mass, height and reach, giving them advantages that cannot be erased by changing their hormones.

Is it transphobic to think there are essential physical differences between someone born male and someone born female? Saying so was enough to have Navratilova branded a bigot and worse: one trans-rights advocate has suggested she should be “executed”.

This is trans-rights orthodoxy in its purest form, a worldview that insists “trans women are women” and allows no dissent or any questioning of its implications. But as well as demonstrating again the intolerance of a movement that demands tolerance, the Navratilova story reveals other things about the transgender debate.

The first is that LGB and T don’t fit together for everyone. Though many gay-rights campaign groups have embraced the trans agenda, many gay people have doubts. Much of the resistance to reforms to gender laws in the UK has been driven by lesbians, some of whom fear allowing “self-defined” women to access women’s spaces and legal rights will erode those rights. It is worth noting that many trans women retain full male anatomy. The term transsexual – which could be used for people like Richards who have had full reassignment surgery – has now largely been replaced with transgender. The difference matters: you can be transgender without changing your body and only a minority of transgender people today have had full reassignment surgery.

Increasingly, gay men are voicing concern too. Last year, Jonny Best, the former director of the Queer Up North festival, organised a petition criticising gay-rights group Stonewall for enforcing trans orthodoxy aggressively.

These issues have been debated on the fringes of public consciousness for years, but rarely in mainstream conversation. Trans orthodoxy has thus made huge advances within public bodies, charities and academia, largely unnoticed by the wider public. When the issue does come to wider attention, however, intolerance and weak arguments are exposed.

Until Navratilova’s intervention, most people won’t have given the issue of trans women in sport much thought. Now they’re starting to see what “trans women are women” really means in a sporting context.

Likewise, until last year few people had spent much time pondering the issue of transgender prisoners. The lack of attention allowed a small group of trans-rights advocates to persuade prison officials to allow trans people to serve their sentence in a prison that matches their chosen gender. A handful of feminist campaigners raised concerns, but were generally dismissed as transphobes.

Then it emerged that Karen White, transgender and rapist, had been sent to a prison full of vulnerable women where White assaulted other inmates. This showed the public what “trans women are women” means for prisons, and the policy that made this possible is now being revised.

Trans rights and their implications for others need to be debated calmly and openly. Navratilova has done a service by opening up this issue to the public. She has put the ball deep into the court of those who aggressively lobby for the trans agenda. By trying to hit back so hard, they’ve lost this game. Sticking with the same intolerant tactics could well cost them set and match too.

Of note in Telegraph piece:

Increasingly, gay men are voicing concern too. Last year, Jonny Best, the former director of the Queer Up North festival, organised a petition criticising gay-rights group Stonewall for enforcing trans orthodoxy aggressively.

The trans community has made a critical mistake targeting Martina. Calling for her to be executed? Just shows how deranged and deluded they are and now it's out in the spotlight for all to see.

I will add the alliterative dangerous to you list.

Comment from Telegraph piece

j gf 21 Feb 2019 3:55PM People forget that professional sport is really a part of the entertainment business - in the end.., it relies on people buying tickets, sitting through adverts while they watch a match on TV.., and so on. Without that.., there is no money, and the whole thing falls apart.

I am enjoy watching some women's sport; tennis, gymnastics, and maybe one or two others.

Once these women's events are regularly being won by so-called trans women (or are they trans men? i can't keep track ) anyway.., at that point I will have no interest in women's sport, and i suspect others will feel the same way.

They will struggle to get TV coverage of these events.., and the prize money to pay the athletes

PaulDirac III 21 Feb 2019 3:39PM Gays have settled down to normal life now, so the trans people want the stage to themselves.

I guess some people still have a problem with gays and probably more with trans, but the general flow is sort of - indifference.

When and why do I care? When it interferes directly with the safety of our wives, daughters etc. and I guess that all this changing room drama is largely a made up problem by the trans, you must LOOK at me, you must notice me they are saying.

The changing room issue needs to be sorted so that women with a uterus can feel safe from women with a penis, while they are in a toilet or a changing room or even in jail.

But no, the trans lobby doesn't want to settle, they want a grievance they are exhibitionists (my opinion) and probably worse.

Bison Strangler 21 Feb 2019 3:00PM Most transsexual people I have known have realised they had gender identity issues, received their treatment. This usually consisted first of counselling and psychotherapy, and in some cases hormones and possible surgery, and then they got on with their lives as a member of the sex they wished to be. They didn't bother anyone. They didn't make demands on other people. They didn't shove their condition in people's faces.

These people still exist today and you probably know such individuals. Unfortunately, the bunch we are hearing so much about these days aren't the quiet, considerate people with gender identity issues. Instead, they are "activists" who are trying to redefine gender or insist we all abandon the very notion of it. These people are not discreet transsexuals; they call themselves things like "transgender" or "gender fluid" or "gender non-binary" and they are confrontational, intolerant and often obnoxious.

A lot of men are heading toward Peak Trans

james brisland 21 Feb 2019 2:58PM If a person has an x and y genes and male genitalia, then the person is male/ man. I have no problems with him putting on a dress and having a female name and wanting me to speak to him as if he was a female but he should not expect to go and change in the dressing room with my wife without an issue from me!!!

He should not be able to compete with women or go to safe spaces for women without issue.

I will tolerate happily everything that is wished for except me accepting that he is actually a woman.

Otherwise I can wish to be a unicorn but that will not make me a unicorn.

j gf 21 Feb 2019 3:59PM @james brisland

i would go further - even if they cut off their male bits - they are still going to the men's changing room

A man, possibly straight, said THIS.

Ben Gerstein 21 Feb 2019 2:56PM Well said, LGB is not the same as T-those who insist on linking them have a political agenda. Although transgender people should still be treated kindly, if you have a penis (Caitlin Jenner I’m looking at you) then I suspect most of us still think of you as a man. I’m definitely with Navratilova and many gay women on this.

Unfortunately, for transsexuals, the genie can't be put back in the bottle. There is no way to distinguish transsexuals from the transgenders who greatly outnumber them.

I am proud of you all.

This thread could have spiraled out but it hasn't. This conversation is important.

That said, Men cannot be women and women can't be men.

Surgery cannot change genetics. Ever.

There. I said it. Have at me.

Stonewall article

As far as trans rights go, yes - there has to be an exception in gender-segregated sports The International Olympic Committee screwed the pooch when they bowed to pressure and ceased sex verification testing in ‘99. After this happened, bio males like the aforementioned Caster Semenya snuck through the cracks. This is a competitor who has already stolen world titles and several olympic medals from women, so how hard is it now to say “sex matters?”

Martina probably underwent a sex test herself at some point, like many of her peers who had exceptional traits did. I’m not sure if she took a stance back in the 90s, but someone should have. It should have been nipped in the bud then.

Gender Inclusion Policy for Canadian sports

The thing about this "gender-segregated sport" nonsense is that, despite what TRAS and handmaiden-esque liberals profess, given enough time women's sports WILL be dominated by MTFs. I often hear trans women (on e.g. twitter) smugly responding to this with "well, I transitioned and I can't beat other AFAB my age! Checkmate!" But of course, it's not about any given MTF, it's that the most-athletic MTFs will ALWAYS beat the most athletic females in sport.

It's only been what, 10-20 years since trans ideology gained prominence, and trans women are already winning the top prizes regularly. Given the percentage of females vs. the percentage of trans women, statistically this should not be happening. That it is means something in the trans narrative is wrong (and Martina is shining a light on what that something is).

R428, don't you know that these delicate flowers can't even open jars after taking HRT? Why, it throws them into a PANIC!

^^ Nothing screams “I’m a real woman” more than complain-bragging about how hard it is to open a jar. Does zhe also go around saying “Gee, math is HARD!”

OMG, read that thread at R429. Comedy gold. Insane comedy gold. As a woman, I've never had a problem opening a door because it was just too heavy, have opened all kinds of jars, carry both laundry and grocery bags without even once collapsing in a pile of weak womanhood awaiting some man named Blake to come to my rescue. Holy fuck.

R329 not even trying to me mean, but that is the stereotypical, autistic, autogynaphile stare. It’s so common with this trans ‘lesbains’. Creepy eyes

R432 Boy George a “trans lesbian?” 😂 Gurl - he is [bold]G.A.Y.™[/bold] As for his eyes, one word: opioids.

R433 I meant r429 not 329....

Ah - thanks for the laugh anyhow. R429 reminds me of the Runaway Bride.

Is Germain Greer the only feminist to speak out strongly against this? Which seems so bizarre and hypocritical of other feminists.

Women matter. Until they don't. Which these other feminists are conceding.

Women don't matter.

As much as I love Gloria Steinem, r436, I am disappointed she “drank the T.”

She even posed for a photo with tranny Cherno Biko at the inaugural Women’s March on DC.

He was a prominent trans activist until rad fems criticized him when he confessed to raping a female.

"He was a prominent trans activist until rad fems criticized him when he confessed to raping a female."

He STILL IS a "prominent trans activist." Gloria posed with him AFTER he confessed to raping a TIF.

Rachel McKinnon is now saying there should be no minimum testosterone levels for women competing at the Olympics.

mckinnon is about the worst representative for this cause. Her PhD thesis was on how to win an argument by lying (not kidding)

Was Rachel gay or straight before transitioning?

"mckinnon is about the worst representative for this cause"

You say that like it's a bad thing. Keep talking, Rachel-- never stop!

Perhaps r418 but he’s no longer ubiquitous. This is the most recent article about him...I disagree with the author....to me, removing a condom during intercourse without consent IS rape.

"Was Rachel gay or straight before transitioning?"

He was (is) straight and married to a woman. Now divorced. Now a "lesbian."

Don't take any shit of these str8 male bullies, Martina. Keep up the good fight.

It's strange case all around, R442. He's quite obviously a transwoman of the gay male variety, yet he managed to get it up to rape a Person With A Vagina. Very rarely are these "old-fashioned" types a danger to women, which is why they-- and not the Game-Stop-wrecking hets-- are pushed to the forefront by LGBT orgs.

I do agree with you that his role seems to have been diminished.

I'd like to be clear. As many of us can agree, I wish no harm to the "trans community".

While i know in my heart its' pretty much bullshit (like fybromyalgia, hypoglycemia and amnesia) There are real people that are truly effected.

The point is this. Trans men/women identify as heterosexual. This, as far as I'm concerned, kick them off our bus.

Go form your own movement. I/we have worked too hard to get to where we are now.

Take the crazy and scat.

waiting for the banishment. 5 4 3 2 1....

[quote]Rachel McKinnon is now saying there should be no minimum testosterone levels for women competing at the Olympics

The IAAF has been fighting tooth and nail to maintain the minimum testosterone standard, although they’ll except anyone who’s “legally” female rather than do genetic testing. As has been pointed out, male intersex athletes like Semenya were the Trojan horse that allowed men to compete against women with no objection for the past few decades.

A lot of people don’t realize that there’s no such thing as a “hermaphrodite” - that intersex people ARE either male or female, and this can be determined through genetic testing, which has been decried by some female athletes who are now paying the price because non-intersex men are jumping into the ring.

McKinnon is one of many taking advantage of these loopholes created by activists who use feminism as an excuse to push a higher agenda. It’s time to realize that genetic testing is not meant to humiliate, but to PROTECT women.

^^ Sorry - I meant the IAAF “accepts anyone who’s legally female” not “excepts.” Yikes.

[quote]funny that he supports trans but is horrifically biphobic and doesn’t believe that male bisexuals exist

Wasn't the love of one of his past lives, Jon Moss, a bisexual? Or was he a basically straight man who made an exception for BG? What about Kirk Brandon from Spear of Destiny, another man who went on to marry a woman, and whom George outed? Perhaps he's just bitter.

BG, like Freddie Mercury, had to play “bi” to not alienate his female fan base, and thus assumes all bisexuals are pretenders, like he is. He doth project too much!

At the link is a clip from the show The Big Picture with Holland Cooke discussing this issue. Even the trans person agrees that transwomen are still men!

Just a reminder that Cyclopath will be making an appearance on Fox News tonight. Not sure what time.

Does McKinnon still have his bits and pieces?

R453, he had replacement surgery and is now officially a dickhead.

He can screech all he wants, the chromosomes don’t lie. They don’t care if he’s wearing lipstick while he makes up his rabidly angry tweets, XY is not and never will be XX.

Now they are blaming Martina for this:

SK Rossi @chasestrangio - FYI @Martina’s comments were just used to oppose inclusion of LGBTQ people in Montana’s state human rights act. #mtleg

Martina Navratilova Well that is just ridiculous- I was only speaking about professional athletic competitions- certainly not HUMAN RIGHTS and EQUAL rights for transgender people. That is totally misrepresenting what I wrote/ said.

Matt Forte What are you doing Rossi? Martina is an advocate for human rights. Dont conflate the issue of sports competition with Martina's stance on LGBTQ. Why tear down someone who is using her notoriety for good? Sickening

R456 - Exactly. Tall people can’t be jockeys, short people can’t play basketball, and blind people can’t drive in the Indy 500. Biological reality is not fair, and our attempts to make it so are futile. It’s not about trying to take away human rights. Why not create a trans/intersex olympics instead - and sports leagues.

So here's how Rachel is spinning his totally hypocritical appearance on FOX: He "went into the lion's den" against a "rabid transphobe."

Being a "phobe" implies we are afraid.

Disgust, contempt and dismissal are not fear based.

Please find your own forum.

Again, take your crazy and scat.

Oh dear. Is that the long suffering wife in r458?

LOL, no R460, that's the "champion" weight-lifting TIM from Minnesota. They were on the show together.

Ah, r461 his fatness really helps him pass. He has that flyover frau look going on.

& by the way Bruce Jenner still has his dick.

I love my L.A. friends.

[quote]Tall people can’t be jockeys, short people can’t play basketball, and blind people can’t drive in the Indy 500. Biological reality is not fair, and our attempts to make it so are futile. It’s not about trying to take away human rights. Why not create a trans/intersex olympics instead - and sports leagues.

Have they tried the Special Olympics yet? Maybe someone should suggest that. Can you imagine the Ts going after all the disabled people for being non-inclusive. "I'm disabled, too, by a society that doesn't accept that my body doesn't match my feelings! I'm practically legless!!"

Funny you should mention that R464 - the Fibromyalgites on their mobility scooters have already invaded the Paralympics, so it would not be surprising at all.

R465, even though they don't belong anywhere near the Special Olympics because pain and numbness and fatigue, in and of itself, isn't a disability, you might want to research the fact that they've found the cause for fibromyalgia (it has to due with blood vessels, circulation, and serotonin's effects on tissue) because you just sound ignorant and sexist. It's like someone proclaiming, over and over, that erectile dysfunction doesn't exist and the men are all just looking for attention even after science shows otherwise.

Now, more importantly, do Ts suffer both erectile dysfunction AND fibromyalgia? I bet they do.

They also suffer from enlarged prostates and go through menopause.

Life is very complicated for them.

SK Rossi is blocking anyone that disagrees with her. The person posting on the outsports twitter account is dawn/don ennis. The former abc producer/reporter that changed their gender 3 different times.

Careful about discussing the fibro on DL - it’s triggering, lol. I think the comparison to trans is valid in that they’re both invisible illnesses that are easily faked... maybe some people really have “dysphoria” too, but you have to take their word for it.

If there is scientific evidence for it, great, but it still doesn’t excuse bio men from competing against women in sports (unless it’s billiards, where I’ve seen women who can whoop men’s asses.) However, if someone claims that your words “triggered their fibro,” politely say goodbye and do everything you can to avoid them in the future.

R449 eh to be fair those only sort of play into his hands; both are clearly very uncomfortable about their same sex attraction and by all accounts lean gay despite their protestations.....

[quote][R453], he had replacement surgery and is now officially a dickhead.

Really? Cyclopath (in)famously tweeted that lesbians "should get over their gender hangups" and fuck "women" who have "ladydicks." Sounded like Cyclopath was a rapey creep who had his own ladydick. And, by the way, he's also doing his version of conversion therapy.

It was a joke, R471.

“But let’s follow this argument all the way through. Let’s say the floodgates do open. Let’s say transgender athletes pour into women’s sport, and let’s say, despite the flimsy and poorly-understood relationship between testosterone and elite performance, they dominate everything they touch. They sweep up grand slam tennis titles and cycling world championships. They monopolize the Olympics. They fill our football and cricket and netball teams. Why would that be bad? Really? Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring.”

We are not hysterical. We are not overreacting. This is real. This is happening.

The guy that wrote is getting his ass kicked on twitter and in the comments at the independent website

R474 that Liew guy quoted at R473 has to be secretly trans, a trans chaser or a plain old woman hater. What normal man would write such a thing?

Heartily agree with this

ian ‏ @CognitiveProbs

Replying to @fairplaywomen @jonathanliew @Independent It would be inspiring if they did it in the mens events

1:52 AM - 23 Feb 2019

Janice Turner ‏ VictoriaPeckham 4h4 hours ago More Here the chief sports writer of The Independent, says he could not care less if women’s sports are destroyed. Truly this issue has given woke men justification for their misogyny. Calm down @Martina and every woman or girl athlete, you don’t count.

This is a pic of Jonathan Liew of The Independent who thinks it would be "inspiring" for the trans to take over female sports. I wonder what sports Liew played in school.

Where do they find these sports writers? Another one:

Christian Radnedge

This is spot on and I'm glad to see someone of @Jonathanliew's status write up this view in such a conciliatory and eloquent way. #TransWomenareWomen

Richard

You really agree with this? I have never in my life read anything that screams “fuck women” quite like that.

Christian Radnedge

I guess with that point, I just don't see that ever happening on a wholesale scale.

What an idiot. It shouldn't happen AT ALL!

Pic of woke sportsbro Christian Radnedge.

It must suck to be a top tier competitor in women's sports facing the onslaught of testosterone-produced contestants.

R473 and R45 I suspect that guy was trying to be satirical because of the way he reduces it to the absurd. If he was serious - WOW.

R478 Chess.

I had a colleague who once admitted he wished MORE pro ball players would start drugging because he thought it would make baseball more “exciting.” The argument about allowing trans to dominate women’s sports reminds me of that. Lots of men secretely complain about women’s competitive sports being “boring” and compare them to the Special Olympics, which almost sounds like what Liew is doing. Except for tennis and volleyball, which many straight guys enjoy jerking off to.

"I suspect that guy was trying to be satirical because of the way he reduces it to the absurd. If he was serious - WOW."

Oh, he's serious. But if you take a look at his timeline, there's pretty much NOTHING else on it about women's sports. He just dropped in to tell women to sit down and shut up, then went back to "real" sports.

I want the other Rachel, Maddow, to delve into this topic.

The chief executive of the campaign group Stonewall, Ruth Hunt, has resigned after a growing protest by leading gay and lesbian supporters against her stance on promoting transgender rights.

Two of the charity’s former ambassadors and donors revealed this weekend they had withdrawn their support in protest because “Ruth Hunt called it wrong and Stonewall is no longer a worthy champion of our rights”.

Maureen Chadwick, creator of hit television programmes including Bad Girls, Footballers’ Wives and Waterloo Road, said that she and her partner, Kath Gotts, quit after Stonewall embraced what they called “the ‘trans’ cause”.

In a statement to The Sunday Times, Chadwick revealed the couple donated at least £38,000 to Stonewall from 2009 to 2015, before deciding to switch to funding women’s aid charities.

This weekend she said they had no idea “how completely the militant ‘trans’ agenda would overwhelm Stonewall with its confusion of sex and gender and its blindness to all the complex rights issues resulting from that.

“Many other longstanding supporters of Stonewall, including transsexuals, share our concerns and dismay that the very organisation we helped to fund and turn into the ‘go to’ LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] authority, advising political parties and corporates, is now telling schoolchildren that a bearded man with a penis can be a lesbian and any girls and boys deviating from 1950s gender norms are in the wrong body.”

They urged the board to “wake up” before “any more young lives are damaged”. The charity, however, has issued a statement making clear it will not change course.

Jan Gooding, chairwoman of Stonewall’s board of trustees, said the group’s “commitment to integrate trans communities into our work has been and will continue to be a core part of our development as an organisation”.

Sources said Hunt, who will be leaving in August after five years at the helm, retains the full backing of the board. Gooding said she had “significantly transformed Stonewall for the better”.

While the most recent accounts published by the Charity Commission show that individual donations to Stonewall dropped from £1.36m in 2016 to £940,000 in 2017, the charity said these bounced back by 11% in the latest year.

Figures who have played a significant role in the 30-year history of Stonewall said they had stepped away in dismay.

One said: “We want people to be nice to trans people, just as we want people to be nice to [gay people], but that is not the argument. The argument is not whether people can be trans or are trans; the argument is what happens when you shift identity in opposition to biology.”

He claimed the charity should have helped an independent lobby group for trans people to emerge, rather than join the fight on divisive questions such as lobbying for changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

Another long-term supporter said: “Stonewall was always clever at putting together those broad coalitions around big principles. [Ruth Hunt] lost what the big principle was. The board is now in an extraordinarily difficult situation.”

"I want the other Rachel, Maddow, to delve into this topic."

That will happen when pigs fly.

R487, thank you so much for posting the entire text of that article! Very exciting.

I like the Twitter responses to this Associated Press propaganda piece.

AP: Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares

Trevor Rhodes

If what Navratilova says is classed as Transphobic then I guess I’m happy to be labelled Transphobic too. Anyone with any ounce of common sense can see this is awful for women’s sports.

Deep Thinkly

There are no statistics proving that trans athletes are being embraced by teammates and fans. What a ludicrous arbitrary opinion meant to imply near universal acceptance. Martina Navratilova is dead on accurate in her assessment however.

Shaun Forward

This debate is stupid, and people who are afraid to ruffle feathers, or truly don’t give a damn about sports are contributing to the madness. We have to look at this logically. We have to set rules. Biological men have a clear biological advantage over women in sports. PERIOD.

John Graham

Look at how tolerant I am." vs. actual critical thinking, with tolerance.

Shaun Forward

EXACTLY. I couldn’t be more pro-trans, and supportive of the LGBT community in general. Even they have arguments about these types of things. Let’s stay focused on tolerance and inclusion, while still setting standards that are aimed at fairness via critical thought.

Another woke sports bro commenting on Liew's piece at R473. This time a gay one.

Alex-Kay Jelski

Another sensible take on this amid the scaremongering elsewhere

Sara Ditum

I mean, in that it acknowledges female athletes will be pushed out of competition by allowing male competitors in women's sports, it's sensible. In that it claims that will be a good thing, not so much.

Sibyl Ruth

Is there going to be women's anything by the time this lot have finished.....?

Woke sports bro Alex-Kay Jelski.

Poor Martina. Now she's fallen for the woke parody account Titania McGrath.

A governor of the NHS trust that runs England’s only gender clinic for children has resigned in protest at its “blinkered” and “one-sided” response to doctors who had raised the alarm about “woefully inadequate” care.

Marcus Evans, a consultant psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman trust with three decades’ experience, told The Sunday Times that the trust had said things that were “not true”, had created a “climate of fear” and was trying to “dismiss or undermine” concerns raised by its own clinicians.

“I am sad to be ending my proud 34-year association with the trust,” Evans wrote in his resignation letter. “However, I do not have confidence that these serious issues . . . are going to be sufficiently addressed and dealt with in a thorough, thoughtful and balanced way.”

Twenty-five other clinicians at the trust have signed a letter protesting against how it had handled the concerns of medical staff. The 25 said the attitude of managers was “not acceptable”.

In a report leaked to this newspaper last week, some staff at the Tavistock’s gender identity development service (Gids) said it was exposing young patients to “long-term damage” because of its “inability to stand up to the pressure” from “highly politicised” campaigners and families demanding fast-track gender transition.

The report, compiled by David Bell, a clinician and former governor at the trust, said the staff had “very serious ethical concerns” that children were making life-changing decisions with “inadequate” examination and consent.

Some openly homophobic parents pushed their children to transition because they were gay, the report said. In other cases, youngsters seized on transition as a “solution” after abuse or bereavement. Their histories were not properly explored by clinicians struggling with “huge and unmanageable caseloads” and afraid of being accused of transphobia if they questioned the “rehearsed” surface presentation.

The report said Gids had tried to “placate” lobby groups such as the Mermaids charity, which campaigns for children to be given sex-change treatment.

After the leak, the trust published a statement on its website claiming Bell’s report was “unsubstantiated”, the case studies were “hypothetical” and he had “no expertise in this field”.

It did so even though a review it had commissioned in response to Bell’s report, by the trust’s medical director, Dinesh Sinha, had found that some of the concerns were valid.

Sinha said individuals’ caseloads were “excessive”, that they worked in “an atmosphere of significant persecution” created by lobbyists and that staff were not sure whether children understood the effect on their fertility of starting sex-change treatment. He made 26 recommendations but said the clinic was safe.

A Gids clinician who contributed to Bell’s report but asked to remain anonymous said last week that the case studies were real and they had personally treated some of the children described.

Evans said: “Things in that statement simply were not true.” He added that Bell, a former president of the British Psychoanalytic Society, had “one of the biggest reputations in the Tavistock yet he’s treated like he’s some sort of charlatan in order to defend their position”. The statement has now been removed from the trust’s website.

Separately, a group of academics in the field of gender has written to The Sunday Times attacking the trust’s attempt to “discredit” Bell and saying that for the sake of “the health of thousands of children” it should “encourage scientific investigation and ethical debate”.

Ministers are concerned that the number of children referred to Gids had multiplied eight-fold in five years, almost three times the rise for adult gender transition. It is understood that Gids is to be given a grant for research into the situation.

The Tavistock said: “The trust is confident that Dr Sinha, with oversight from a non-executive board member and a governor, has conducted a thorough and fair review of the issues raised. It has been very disappointed at the unauthorised disclosure of Dr Bell’s confidential report to the media.”

Peak trans is upon us!

That is a heartbreaking article R495, what is being done to these kids.

Why does it seem that a disproportionate amount of the people pushing this trans narrative are Jewish? It seems just about every author, surgeon, twitter account... even the families of the kids being transitioned (Jazz for example), so many of them Jewish? Are they just trying to be super woke compared to everyone else or ????

[quote]Poor Martina. Now she's fallen for the woke parody account Titania McGrath.

😂 Thanks for introducing me to her. - she’s a riot!

Titania McGrath @TitaniaMcGrath It is absolutely *essential* that we believe Jussie Smollett.

If we don’t, other people who haven’t been attacked might not have the courage to come forward.#IBelieveJussie

Cram it, R497.

R496, I think so. A sudden deluge of articles questioning all different aspects of the T movement. I'd like to read this one but it is behind a paywall.

Daily Telegraph: When will fashion get what women really want?

Are women allowed to do anything for ourselves anymore? And can we just back up the diversity truck for a minute? And now fashion's idea of progressiveness is to put a transgender model in women's underwear and expect ...

Fashion is kidding itself if it thinks women are going to confuse Andreja Pejica as the new face of Bonds for respect for the reality of women’s bodies, writes Claire Harvey.

Thank you for saying it first, R499.

R493 Well I can’t blame Martina for falling for it - Titania is too much like a real-life “woke” SJW to tell the difference. Remember when this classic went viral?

I find Titania hilarious but also scary.

Most people are not sitting around thinking about trans people. That said, I do wonder about celebrities that are pro trans. Sometimes I think the support is not as much as we would think, that they voice pro trans because of the backlash if they didn't. Would Ellen date a trans woman? Would Meryl Streep date a trans man? Would George Clooney date a trans woman?

R504 George Clooney would not even date a woman his age, let alone a trans woman; neither would Ellen, but she would also never munch the carpet of an obese, disabled butch with fibro. As for Meryl Streep - she wouldn’t be caught dead with a guy who flips burgers at Wendys, no matter how hot or well-endowed he is. As a matter of fact, all three would never sleep with most of us.

Does that mean they’re against civil rights for the elderly, the disabled, or the poor? Of course not. Grossed out by them, yes, but fuckability has nada to do with civil rights, something the trans lobby apparently does not accept or understand. Sexual attraction to a certain race, set of genitals, body type, or socio-economic status is NOT bigotry. It’s simply sexual preference.

R505 but you are thinking logically; that is verboten in regards to the human sex and sexuality in this new age.

That is a false equivalency R505

It's funny we're always expected to be conciliatory with people who from their side are in no way conciliatory.

Why is that?

They need to be blasted as strongly as we who have different views. Remember these are arrogant testosterone driven men who have to win no matter what and they know what it takes to play hardball. They have a lot of experience. They are trained for it. You become an Olympic champion by knowing how to blow away the competition.

And they don't play fair.

They are not even the real issue, it is the power and money behind them on a global scale. Medicine, politicians, science, media, law, education - all pushing pushing pushing, from London to NY to Iran. Pushing back on the legal rights of women, gays and lesbians and the age of consent.

The T are the handmaidens or perhaps collaterol damage, depending.

The creepy HRC Jazz reading day is coming up this week, yes?

R504 / R507 No - YOU made a false equivalency by equating “supporting” a trans person to “dating” them. You basically inferred that those who claim to support trans people are hypocrites if they won’t sleep with them. I simply exposed the absurdity of your “logic” by illustrating it.

Not at all R511. If you are going to go along and say a MtF is a woman then you should have no problem sleeping with them. Same for a FtM.

Agree with R512 since this is the logic that is put forth by the trans community. It's the reason that lesbians are supposed to accept "female penises" and gay men are supposed to accept "front holes" or risk being considered transphobic.

What’s the term for male “cotton ceiling”?

I never heard Clooney, Ellen, or Meryl say that not sleeping with a trans person is transphobic like the trans activists do, only that they “support trans rights” - unless R504 thinks being fucked by George Clooney is a “right”, lol.

[quote]George Clooney would not even date a woman his age, let alone a trans woman; neither would Ellen, but she would also never munch the carpet of an obese, disabled butch with fibro.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

R516 - Nixon looks like she’s open to anything - or any THING.

[quote]Not at all [R511]. If you are going to go along and say a MtF is a woman then you should have no problem sleeping with them. Same for a FtM.

But everyone has their preferences, based on what they find attractive. The fact that a straight guy might not want to sleep with Chrissy Metz doesn't mean he hates all fat people, or thinks they shouldn't have rights and be treated equally. It just means he doesn't want to sleep with her. Now substitute Caitlyn Jenner for Chrissy, and transgender for fat people.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

There is no such thing as "transgender."

There is no such thing as "cis."

There is no such verb or thing as "deadnaming."

There is no such verb or thing as "mis-gendering."

Every one of these terms needs to be de-legitimized and discredited.

R519 There was a major study in 2012 showing that more lesbians and bisexual women report childhood sexual abuse than straight women, so there could be a correlation. I wonder many later became butch or transitioned to “male?”

Male bodies don’t belong in women’s sport | Janice Turner

Martina Navratilova has been cast out for telling the truth about how trans athletes have an unfair physical advantage

In 1990, after trouncing Zina Garrison 6-4, 6-1 to win her ninth Wimbledon singles title, Martina Navratilova hurtled into the stands to embrace her lover Judy Nelson. A generation before gay marriage, two years after Clause 28 forbade promoting the “acceptability of homosexuality”, Martina defied prejudice and sneers with that joyful Centre Court hug.

For living as boldly as she played, proposing to her present partner before the world at the US Open, Navratilova earned her place in any LGBT pantheon. Yet now she is a pariah in the movement she helped forge, kicked off the advisory board of Athlete Ally, an LGBT sports campaign, while activists lobby the BBC to drop her as a commentator. For what? Because she believes it unjust for male-bodied…

For what? Because she believes it unjust for male-bodied athletes to compete in women’s sports.

Writing in The Sunday Times, Navratilova said that Rachel McKinnon, a Canadian trans woman who won the 35-44 age category Masters Track cycling world championship, had unfair advantages.

The podium photo shows a hefty 6ft-plus, 14-stone McKinnon, who only recently took up the sport, dwarfing two female cyclists.

McKinnon had not broken the rules, which merely demand she lower her testosterone (albeit to levels still five times higher than the average female), but she retained the larger skeleton, muscle mass and greater aerobic capacity acquired in male puberty.

It seems quite mad that I have to prove the bleeding obvious: that men are better at sport, which is why Edwardian ladies founded their own competitions so they had any chance of lifting a trophy.

But here goes: in every sport based upon strength or speed men have a 10 to 30 per cent advantage. The men’s 100m record, for example, is 9.58 seconds, while the women’s is 10.49, a time regularly achieved by top teenage boys.

In the 1970s, Navratilova, for all the “transphobia” slurs, championed Renée Richards’s right to play in the women’s US Open. Richards, who later became her coach, was over 40 when she underwent full surgical transition yet held her own against females at their physical peak.

She has since reflected that if she’d transitioned at 22,

"no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.”

Now, the 100th best young male player could, without surgery, enter the highly lucrative women’s circuit and probably beat Serena Williams.

Are Martina and other elite athletes who have supported her — Paula Radcliffe, Chris Evert, Kelly Holmes — bigots for trying to preserve the integrity of women’s sports?

This week I heard a British university professor argue that sex-segregated contests were outdated: women, he said, could improve their times competing against men.

The Emperor’s New Running Shoes doctrine dictates that biological sex does not exist: all that counts is the amorphous inner feeling of “gender identity”.

Stonewall’s slogan “Trans women are women, get over it” doesn’t mean “trans women should be treated socially and legally as women” — with which many people, including myself, would agree — but that they are biologically women: their bodies are women’s bodies, their penises are women’s penises.

(I’m not exaggerating, this is the avowed policy of a mainstream lobby group with the government’s ear.)

If you subscribe to this magical thinking, of course natal males should play in women’s sports, at the very moment they identify as female. When the US powerlifting body concluded it was unfair for trans women to compete against biological women because male

"advantages such as increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, and connective tissue” remain after testosterone suppression, trans activists disrupted events.

(McKinnon believes it a human rights violation even to reduce her testosterone, which she sees as naturally produced by her “female” body.)

Yet as Invisible Women, a new book by the feminist campaigner Caroline Criado Perez, demonstrates on every page, biological sex is real. In our pain thresholds and immune systems; our response to stress or cold; the way we manifest Parkinson’s disease or heart attacks; the rate we burn calories or absorb poisons: all reveal distinct differences between women and men.

But to state that biological sex should have any sway in political decisions is now, bizarrely, verboten. You might think, well what does it matter about women’s sports?

Trans women constitute a tiny fraction of the population and few will become elite athletes. OK, a few fast girls will never win or feel free to complain at the injustice.

A few other unfortunates will be hurt in collisions with bigger trans players: 6ft 2in, 15-stone Hannah Mouncey broke a woman’s leg in Australian rules women’s football. Small beer.

Except the idea biological sex is irrelevant, old-fashioned or a bigoted concept has seeped far into public life. Across the country schools are unilaterally erasing single-sex toilets for “gender neutral” facilities, even though this is a breach of equalities and human rights legislation.

Both sexes hate sharing bathrooms at puberty, but girls suffer the added shame of learning to use sanitary protection knowing boys are nearby, fearing washing bloody hands in communal sinks. Parents report girls risking urinary tract infections “holding it in” until they get home.

Yet this is where Stonewall has left us four years after it decided to incorporate the T with the LGB.

Taken over by extreme biology-denying activists, at odds with thousands of former supporters — including its own founders — who have petitioned for women’s voices to be heard, with its lesbian CEO Ruth Hunt resigning this week reportedly in some despair and Martina Navratilova, the greatest LGBT athlete of all time, cast out for speaking the truth.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Note, Martina is speaking THE TRUTH, not HER truth.

Objective, verifiable, pro-social rather than pro-chaos.

R519 - you have some good points. From the 2012 study:

[quote]Given this prior research, it is possible that a similar association with adverse childhood experiences holds for sexual minority women who are gender nonconforming (i.e., butch, androgynous, more masculine). While this has not yet been examined in this population, a few studies suggest that gender nonconformity among women may be positively associated with their victimization as children. In a survey administered to US army soldiers, current masculinity among women (assessed as “macho traits” such as arrogance and boastfulness) was significantly associated with both childhood physical and emotional abuse...”

R514 The jockey ceiling?

If a male athlete of her stature said the same, would he be getting kicked off of boards?

One wonders.

R519 The article in R527 actually contradicts itself because it states that studies show that women put on a masculine facade as a result of being sexually abused as children, but then goes on to say:

[quote]It is not yet fully understood why sexual minority women are at greater risk for being abused as both children and adults compared to heterosexual women.

This statement reverses cause and effect. It should ask “why are girls who are molested more likely to become sexual minorities?” It’s ridiculous to claim that pedophiles are so discriminating about a little girl’s gender presentation that they favor tomboys over feminine girls. Really?

Unfortunately, it’s taboo to consider childhood sexual abuse as the cause of same-sex attraction or transgenderism, so the study avoids addressing this matter at all costs. That said, I know many straight women who “think” they are lesbian or bi because they are grossed out by male genitalia due to the trauma of being sexually abused as children, so they hook up with androgynous women or butches in lieu of a biological man.

There is NO scientific basis to the T propaganda of a male or female brain.

It is an agenda or a psych problem (PTSD, etc), or kids who will likely grow up to be LGB or a fetish.

Thanks for the link, R531. Considering the straight, feminine women in my family who are math wizards who can fend for themselves and don’t cloak themselves in victimhood, this is absolutely no surprise to me.

You will understand how rich this quote is, too, R532.

Her measured delivery is at odds with the image created by her detractors, who decry her as a “neuronazi” and a “grumpy old harridan” with an “equality fetish”.

Any T referring to the neuroscientist as having a fetish is an excellent example of projection.

A lot of their tropes are being shown up, oh dear.

Wake up US, at least people in the UK are aware of what is in their equality bill, pending. Gender identity was also slipped into the recent anti-lynching bill that Smollett may have been trying to help along.

Yes, R531. And it's so ridiculous when a man says "I feel like a woman" or a woman says "I feel like a man."

There is NO WAY anyone can know what sexual arousal feels like in the opposite sex, or what their brain "feels like," because they've never been the opposite sex, so how the fuck would they recognize the feeling even if they had it? You think you have a "woman's brain" because you like high heels and dresses? That's what you think it means to be female? You're just a crossdresser and I'm not gonna use special made-up words because you think the English language should bend to your will.

R533 “Neuronazi” - 😂 Oh dear. Rippon also blows away the myths of race determining IQ by describing how brain plasticity and the experiences we’re exposed in our early years determines cognitive ability, not race or gender. Rippon’s example of girls lacking education of spacial relationships because they are not given toys like Legos is dead accurate.

So much lost talent thanks to stupid prejudices about what toys and learning experiences girls should be exposed to. That’s REALLY why some of the more intelligent chauvinist jackasses are scared of their sons playing with Barbies - not just that it will make them “gay,” but stupid.

Oh look! Surprise suprise: Transgender sprinters finish 1st, 2nd at Connecticut girls indoor track championships

[quote]Yearwood, a 17-year-old junior at Cromwell High School, is one of two transgender high school sprinters in Connecticut, transitioning to female.

And, being the only two in the state, isn't it just shocking that they both keep winning?! Such a strange coincidence!

[quote]Yearwood acknowledges she is stronger than many of her cisgender competitors, but says girls who are not transgender may have other advantages. “One high jumper could be taller and have longer legs than another, but the other could have perfect form, and then do better,” she said. “One sprinter could have parents who spend so much money on personal training for their child, which in turn, would cause that child to run faster.”

R537 And if that’s the case, surely some FTMs in male leagues are rising to the top as well. Why are there no articles about them?

Fuck those two cunts R536 If you have a dick and balls you have no business competing in women's sports. Why are the other female athletes not protesting at these games?

R539 Because women and girls who speak out risk bullying, ostracisation, disqualification and loss of scholarships for 'hate speech'. Not that they have much of a chance of scholarships because of all the boys taking them but in theory a 'hate incident' on their record will probably dash any chance they do have.

It's truly authoritarian, male supremacy shit in action.

News from CT is infuriating.

This is just sad and illuminating.

Funny that the man at R541's link brings porn into the equation as part of the reason why he thought he was trans. I wonder if the last decade's increase in these men who think they are women has some link to online porn, and them having grown up staring at it for six hours a day as teenagers?

Hypno sissy porn was designed to create that outcome, R542, Wonder where the money and tech for that comes from?

On a lighter note, this is hilarious.

What is it that they say about pictures?

And anime R542. About 80% of avatars I see on social media for TW are anime characters.

Yep, R545, guess that group may overlap a great deal with the huge number of autistics, both M & F. Many others have other psychiatric diagnoses, none of which have hormones, castration or mastectomies as approved treatments. This is barbaric treatment of the most vulnerable to further an agenda.

Sports fans, this is a way you can help

Andrea long chu is trans and into sissy porn.

Titania McGrath is brilliant.

What cowards feminists have turned out to be. Turns out after all these decades they were shooting fish in a barrel.

Not real feminists, R550. They call this shit out constantly. Difference is, they don't have millions of corporate dollars backing them up like the funfems at TeenVogue and Jizzabel.

What a great way to erase gay men: convince any young boy who likes boys that he is, in fact, a woman trapped in the wrong body! Thats were this is headed. How else to explain young men who are suddenly "lesbians", with another trans gay boy? So you both have dicks but now you are lesbians? I call bullshit.

Its high time that =Gay and Lesbians take back our dollars, our organizations and our history. We need to do what the trans community refuses to do: CUT IT OFF! Trans, that is! Start your own fucking organizations devoted to body dysmorphia and mental illness. No one cares. Bisexuals: call us when you make a choice. No one cares. I want to walk into he Gay and Lesbian Center, where Im surrounded by people who have walked the walk and survived the journey. We are spiritually, emotionally and sexually attracted to our own sex, not deciding, not trapped in the wrong body. This is not the tent for every alternative thought.

Also, don't label me "CIS" unless you want to be labelled "Chick with a dick", mmmmmKay?!?!?!

Our past was stolen from us by straight men and women, and our future is also being stolen by the straight men and women, who are suddenly "trans" and want all of the rights and none of the responsibility. Fuck right off.

How long before able bodied athletes can take over the Special Olympics? Perhaps my arms and legs don't "feel" like mine. Perhaps I 'feel" like I'm a disabled person trapped inside a body that has moving limbs. Why not? Im a gay white male, but what if I'm really a black female trapped in this body? Can I start applying for scholarships set up to help minorities pay for college? The problem with the "biology/the body is a construct" is that is has no limits. Except those, of course, decided on by the T Nazis. If we are forced to accept that "men" have vaginas, that "women" are bearded and have 10" cocks, then why would we not be forced to also accept that quadriplegics have working arms and legs and white people are actually black? Its Orwellian and ridiculous. When the biologically male 6'5" "woman" is involved in a car accident, a test of their DNA will NOT show that they are a woman in a mans body. It will show they are male, period. Science always wins

Men cannot become women.

Women cannot become men.

Blind people shouldn't drive cars.

Water is still wet and fish can't ride bicycles.

These are facts. Just plain facts.

Martina is right and deserves our support.

If Trump has got to stay out his term, and as long as he's trolling the shit out of us all constantly, I hope he announces before he goes that he identifies as a woman.

That he identifies as a svelte blonde named Donatella, and he will not tolerate being deadnamed or misgendered.

And then the T loons will be FORCED to acknowledge that he -- er, she -- is our first FEMALE president. And Vairst Letty is our first lesbian First Lady.

The bizarre nature of current social pressure to redefine reality to suit the self view of a tiny minority will be considered in the future as something akin to the Salem witch trials.

With the same outcome, R556. Innocent women paying the price.

[quote]Its high time that =Gay and Lesbians take back our dollars, our organizations and our history. We need to do what the trans community refuses to do: CUT IT OFF! Trans, that is! Start your own fucking organizations devoted to body dysmorphia and mental illness. No one cares. Bisexuals: call us when you make a choice.

R552 I’ve already seen a resurgence of GL support for each other at the center in my area, because of Trump and Trans - the two T’s forging our loyalty. G cares about equality for women more than any other group of men, and we have been better allies as well. Who was there for us during the AIDs crisis? The B, the T, the hets? It was L, of course. We need to return the favor by giving these women more of a voice in our organizations, promote them to more to leadership roles, and eliminate the pay gap.

That’s not to say GL have exactly the same needs - we do need our own spaces, certain segregated social events where we can speak freely. Gay men tend to have a high diversity of opinion - often controversial, sometimes offensive; we don't pull punches, while gay women tend to be more cooperative and supportive of each others’ opinions (unfortunately some guys I know call lesbian spaces “the clone zone” where no diverging opinions are allowed!) Yes, many men within our ranks suffer from the toxins of male socialization, but at least we acknowledge it and are trying to do better - unlike the MTFs who claim they are exactly like women, yet are bullying lesbians and stealing athletic scholarships from girls.

Don't be afraid of being called a TERF. Or CIS or any other nonsensical, made-up insult. Any hesitation to battle only helps feed the delusion.

^^Add “NT” to the list of insults - apparently the 98% of us who are “neurotypical” are the delusional ones. There is lots of crossover between the autist and trans communities, not surprisingly.

People with a variety of mental health issues are being attracted to the transgender label and the idea that they can wipe the slate clean and become a whole new person.

Insider: A transgender activist in Michigan is accused of burning down his own home months after police initially investigated it as a hate crime

Police have accused Nikki Joly, 54, of burning down his home in Jackson, Michigan, with a fire that killed his two dogs and three cats in August 2017.

According to a police report obtained by The Detroit News, police believe he may have burned down the home because there were no gay rights controversies to campaign against in Jackson.

In the months prior to the fire, Joly helped open Jackson's first gay community center and organized the city's first gay pride parade and festival.

People who worked with Joly told police that he was disappointed that the Jackson Pride Parade and Festival hadn't received more attention or protests.

R561 Does he have chickenpox? Oh no, the hormones

Geez - R562 - Is that really a side effect? Ew. I wonder what kind of insurance plan bought “Nikki” those DD cup bajangas!

The Republicans are focusing in on this sports issue because it's an easy win. Who is going to disagree with them? Fox News had that cheater male cyclist Rachel McKinnon on and now this:

Donald Trump, Jr. I feel so sorry for the young ladies who trained their whole lives to be the best in their state and to hopefully attain scholarships etc etc... this is a grave injustice.

R563 are you stupid? That’s clearly a cis woman. They are calling her a ‘man’ because you have to respect gender identity.

That’s a butch woman who hasn’t had top surgery claiming to be a man

R565 don't be mean. It's very confusing! Yes, appears to be a trans male - a woman identifying as a man.

Well congrats on your transdar, R565 - but UGLY, masculine, and named “Nikki?” Easy to mistake for an MTT.

R565 It looks like diseased shit, is that better?

As much as people are hating on Jussie Smollett, at least he didn’t kill 5 of his pets while staging his “hate crime.” What an especially depraved lunatic this one is.

Yes r569, it takes a special kind of psycho to kill her own pets. I can forgive many things but animal cruelty isn’t one of them.

"Good news!" says handmaiden Chelsea. Unbelievable.

Holy cow. I ageee with trump at r564.

And Chelsea Clinton is a moron for r571.

What a brilliant strategy Putin devised. Talk about 4D chess. He’s a grandmaster. 😢

The comments at R571 are - mostly respectfully - disagreeing with Clinton. Backlash!

Let's hope little Charlotte doesn't have any future sporting ambitions. Although maybe if you're a Clinton you can pay off or quietly dispose of any male LARPer's in the path of your daughter.

What an utterly moronic statement from a coddled rich woman.

I am rather heartbroken over this. There is so much bad stuff happening all over World regarding women and gay rights. For half of Europe equal marriage is nowhere in sight, some countries have incompetent, lazy politicians (Czech Rep.) and many countries like Ukraine, Poland, Russia ect. are openly homophobic (and anti-semitic). Some enlightened countries even made a new kind of concentration camps for us, oh do we feel special. And yet these org. that were started to help women and gay people are putting their full weight behind this tiny fraction of T-people, where for the most part, a really good mental health therapy would do the job. - Just today i saw this bit about Pakistan and it made me really sad. It is ilegal to be gay there and yet the Pakistani goverment just opened its first public school for trans people. - Gay - Punishable by fines and/or imprisonment - Trans - Transgender people allowed to change legal gender; third gender recognised; - Gender identity protected; - In 2018, Parliament passed the Transgender Persons (Protection of Rights) Act which established broad protections for transgender people. Earlier, in a historic 2009 ruling, the Supreme Court of Pakistan ruled in favour of civil rights for transgender citizens, and further court rulings upheld and increased these rights.

Martina all the way. Down with LGBTZWFEGAUNLS.

Hey, another! Top-Ranked NCAA Women’s Runner Is a Biological Male. Why bother with women's sports at all. Trans women are so more deserving

Infuriating, r278. Thanks.

Damn I miss gender trender & gallus

Here is an interview by Laura Ingraham with Selina Soule who lost to the two biologically male athletes in the Connecticut State Championship. Although rightfully clear about the unfairness, Selina tries to be nice. Laura Ingraham isn't having it

Trannies are a pain in the ass

Muslim Trans.

Dante couldn't have come up with a circle of hell deep enough for them.