What if Elizabeth Taylor had been on that plane with Mike Todd?

No.

Perhaps she would have a Marilyn type necro presence. She certainly was beautiful.

If Liz had been on that plane with Mike Todd it would not have crashed. Things like that didn't happen to Liz.

What a pleasant thought.

She'd have missed the 27 club by a lousy year.

The world diamond market would’ve been a lot less buoyant.

She was on there. She deplaned right before take off. Urban legend is that she planted a bomb to get Todd’s money and Eddie Fisher’s dick.

Her filmography would have ended with "Raintree County" and she would not have received any Oscars.

She would have died at the height of her beauty at 26, before the drinking weight gain and illnesses diminished it all. She would be remembered as the ultimate beauty icon ever in hollywood.

Elizabeth was in peak form back then.

One more

Taylor would never have had the same mystique had she died in that plane crash. People seem far more drawn to the self-destructive than the mere misfortunate, like Carole Lombard. They’re more drawn to people like Marilyn whose actions doom themselves rather than those to whom bad things just randomly happen.

All of the real Liz Taylor drama happened later, from Eddie Fisher to Richard Burton to numerous health scares and substance abuse. That’s what made her not just famous, but iconic. Beauty alone isn’t enough to sustain that level of public interest.

Agree with r12. Yes, the La Liz period is what made her iconic even today.

Pic from the last days of Todd, when Taylor was already filing Cat.

Had Liz passed away around age 36, after the 2nd Oscar from Woolf but before Boom came out, could she possibly have been the biggest Hollywood icon ever?

The proposition leads to other questions, such as:

Who would have replaced her in "Cat On a Hot Tin Roof"? What Best Actress would have won her two Oscars those years? Would Debbie and Eddie have stayed married longer? Would Richard and Sybil have remained married? Would Joan Collins have made "Cleopatra"? Would John Warner still have won his Senate seat? Would we even know the name Larry Fortensky?

r15 hmm... I think Cat could have gone to another major actress capable of being shrewd and also sexual . . . perhaps Jane Russel, who was older but still a bombshell? Shirley Mclaine would've won for the Apartment in 1961. Not sure about 1967 . . . maybe one of the Redgrave sisters? Richard would've divorced Sybil eventually judging by his character. Joan was only ever considered for a B-movie version of Cleo, so a high budget Cleo could have gone to Loren, who was considered for the role and a fairly good match. Warner . . . probably not. No for Larry.

What abour Ava Gardner for Maggie in "Cat"?

Larry Fortensky = Tom Arnold

Ava Gardner would have made an excellent Maggie replacement in COAHTR. She was only 2 years older than Paul Newman and she was southern.

Burton would not stay married.

Nah. Eva Gabor for Maggie.

What if Judy's mother had thought to give her a Flintstone's vitamin instead of an upper, but Gary Morton talked her out of it?

"Who would have replaced her in "Cat On a Hot Tin Roof"?"

ME, r15, Me, Me, ME!

Most of her best movies had been filmed by then, just barely. The crash was in 1958 and "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" was released that year. The 60s still had Cleopatra and Virginia Woolf but only the latter is actually a good movie. After that, Liz and Richard became lazy drunks who'd shoot any lousy movie for the paycheck.

She looks awfully smug in the pic at R11. Mike must have been hung.

Giant would have seemed like a cursed movie having two of its main stars die in crashes.

R24, But they could not have completed filming "Cat" without her, as they did "Saratoga" with a double after Harlow died.

r24 to be fair they had one more great movie in the 1960s: Taming of the Shrew, where Elizabeth delivered both great acting and good looks especially in that final scene. Shrew was big box office and also critically acclaimed, earning her nominations and awards. And the VIPs and Sandpipers both were block busters despite the weak stories. Had Elizabeth passed away/vanished forever before Boom! came out in late 1968, she'd still be at the peak of fame and success then.

[quote]Shirley Mclaine would've won for the Apartment in 1961.

No. Deborah Kerr would have won for The Sundowners!

Liz would've been as remembered as Robert Francis.

Why was Marilyn not considered for COAHTR?

I thought Angela Lansbury would have been a fantastic Martha.

Elizabeth Taylor became an even bigger star post Mike Todd. Had she died in the plane crash with Todd, she likely wouldn't be as remembered today, except as a child star who grew up to do "A Place in the Sun" and "Giant." No "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof," "Suddenly, Last Summer," "Butterfield 8," "Cleopatra," "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf."

She and Mike Todd would have been remembered as a tragic great love who died together. I wonder if Burton would have ever become a Hollywood star? He wasn't even the first choice for Cleopatra - Steven Boyd was but couldn't do it. If Liz was not around to star in it, Burton may have just returned to England. His affair with Liz was what made him a household name.

r31 Could Marilyn Monroe ditch the soft/vulnerable persona and do the hardened, snappish shrew thing as Maggie? And could she handle those super long Tenesse Williams dialogue?

One more pic from 1958

Warhol would have used a different image of her for her portrait.

White Diamonds would not be my signature scent.

Then the name of the plane would have been a wicked CURSE.

Marian Monroe wouldn't have happened

JeanSimmons would have been a bigger star

Liza would have had a different maid of honor at her David Gest wedding.

I was available then, and am available for all future weddings. Sheeesh my shisster.

She would have died at 26, at her happiest and most beautiful. Father of the Bride + A Place in the Sun + Giant would've guaranteed her a James Dean level of iconic status.

Who would have starred in the film version of A Little Night Music?

[quote]Marian Monroe wouldn't have happened

She never did.

The friendship with Michael Jackson would've never happened. I always thought their relationship was interesting.

MJ & ET

R34 Marilyn played a hard and calculating shrew in Niagra and really wanted a break from those vulnerable characters she played by 1958. She had long scenes of dialogue in Bus Stop and The Misfits.

I believe Richard and Sybil would have remained married. She would have lived with his womanizing as other wives of known Hollywood philanderers did, such as the wives of Robert Mitchum, Bob Hope, Kirk Douglas, William Holden, etc.

I preferred Debbie Reynolds -- she was really pretty and seemed more down to earth. Elizabeth seemed too aware that she was beautiful and like she'd be pretty demanding.

If Richard and Sybil had not divorced, there would have been no Arthur.

R24 I love the VIPS, but Maggie Smith with Rod Taylor and Margaret Rutherford's stories and performances steal the film, though Liz and Dick with Louis Jourdan is at the height of their glamou. Rod and Louis really look gorgeous in the film, and both I think are under-rated for their acting talents.

"are at the height of their glamour", that is.

R44, Not so fast . . .

R50, As a young gayling when it was first released, I wore the hood on my winter coat like Elizabeth did in the opening scenes.

R52 made me laugh, how long did that take!

R54, A simple Google search.

r34 Marilyn's turn in Niagara was cartoon-mannered and still very soft, like she was playing Jessica Rabbit. It would never work for a gritty southern drama like Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. Maggie the Cat needed to be ferocious, which Marilyn was not. At best Marilyn could do sly with a cartoonish edge. And Marilyn's dialogues in Bus Stop and Mistfits are nowhere as long or demanding as Elizabeth's in Cat. Marilyn was already floundering verbally in much of Mistfits' talkier scenes (then again she appeared heavily drugged in that period).

Scenes from "Gypsy" with great possibilities that I wished were musicalized:

Rose taking Baby June (with Baby Louise tagging along) shopping for a feathered hat

Tessie Tura confronting her usual costume designer when she calls up for using fishhooks for her stitching instead of those ladylike stitches Louise makes

Rose in her room feeling sexy, practicing a strip, more elaborate than the few moves she may do in "Rose's Turn"

wrong thread, darlings - pardon

R58 has had too many Christmas sherries!

R56, As previously posted, Ava Gardner for Maggie the Cat.

Ava should've been a good fit considering her feisty screen image. But was there really no good "glamor shrew" actress closer to Elizabeth's age in the late 50s? How about dark-featured Anne Bancroft?

Shelley Winters as Martha in WAOVW?

r62 That is a surprisingly great fit!

R61, In 1957, Anne was appearing in crap like this.

Anne Baxter as Maggie the Cat

Dorothy Malone as Maggie the Cat

Could Joan Collins have pulled it off?

Missy Stanwyck as Maggie the Cat, with Monty Woolley as Big Daddy, Roddy McDowell as Brick , Clifton Webb as Mae , Victor Buono as Gooper and Agnes Moorehead as Big Mama

Roddy McDowell as Brick can pair with Debbie Reynolds as Maggie. They can both do the shadow behind the sunshine thingie.

[quote]And Marilyn's dialogues in Bus Stop and Mistfits are nowhere as long or demanding as Elizabeth's in Cat.

R56 The Prince and the Showgirl had many on set problems, but in the final product Marilyn has a lot of scenes with lengthy dialog and one-shot takes. Also, she's the only good thing in that mess of a movie. She even outshines Olivier.

The whole thing (Prince) was meh from what I remember of it.

Marilyn reportedly required many, many takes just to get her lines delivered correctly in Prince. Same with most other movies of hers. She needed 40 takes just to get a one-liner right in Some Like it Hot. A dialogue intensive drama like Cat would take forever to complete if they star her.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

another

Elizabeth at her physical peak.

Another.

Another

Pregnant and still beautiful.

Around 1957-58

The Todds in HK

Hyannis Port 1957, soonish after Liza Todd's birth and already rocking those beach shorts.

Wearing the 1957 curled hightail.

Todd family Xmas 1957. Liza Todd is the little baby. The other guy present is Todd Junior, with presumably Mike Todd's grandkid.

Some press thing.

England press thing.

1958

Maggie the Cat hairstyle of doom. These happy days were numbered.

Would someone please look at the photo of Elizabeth and Mike Todd in R9 and tell me if it's my imagination or does Todd look a bit like Richard Burton?

R87 I was just going to comment that he reminded me of Burton! I had never before known what he looked like. That may have been Liz's initial attraction to him and why she kept going back to him.

Liz's husbands beat her up. Mike Todd was no exception. His ex-wife, Joan Blondell accused him of holding her over a hotel window by the ankles. He also left her bankrupt. She divorced him on the grounds of mental cruelty. His best buddies were Kirk Douglas and Eddie Fisher. Birds of a feather...

R89, He also gave some of Joan's jewelry to Elizabeth.

Mike Todd was also with Gypsy Rose Lee. Do you think he beat her up, too?

Elizabeth's first marriage to the actually violent Nicky Hilton likely desensitized her to physically aggressive men. That said, just because Todd might've been a monster to Joan doesn't mean that he couldn't also have been a good husband to Elizabeth. One man can have multiple facades to his characyer. And yes, I agree that Burton did resemble Todd somewhat in the way of looks and general aura.

This has been written before on DL but for the newbies when she heard Todd's plane had crashed Blondell said 'I hope the son of a bitch screamed all the way down!'

R93 why would she say something insensitive like that?

R89, Even Michael Wilding? Hedda Hopper was convinced Wilding was gay and would regularly insinuate as much in her column.

R94, Because he treated her like shit.

Mike Todd also lived for a while with Evelyn Keyes.

I believe he traded up to Elizabeth directly from Evelyn.

Who would he have traded Liz in for? Or would she have dumped him first for Burton?

she didnt have the huge masses world wide routing for her like Monroe did. She also didnt have the vulnerablity...........I would say she would have faded as a tragic star at the height of her beauty tragecially taken too soon...... she wouldnt be the myth that Monroe is.

r99 Elizabeth too had huge masses world wide routing for her by the time she reached her adulterous La Liz period. Monroe's "myth" is dependent on her having a semi-public affair with JFK before dying mysteriously. Should Taylor passed away around Monroe's age (36), soonish after her second Oscar, while still connected to Burton in adultery and extravagance, she too would've become a "myth" - the talented harlot undone by amorality, which of course rad fems would rush in to support.

Wasn't Liz from a well-to-do family whose parents hobnobbed with British royalty? Compare that to Marilyn who literally was born in the charity ward of a hospital and then spent her childhood in an orphanage and foster homes and was married off a few weeks after turning 16. Then worked in a factory for some time before being discovered. I mean, who doesn't want to root for that? No one really roots for the little rich girl.

Liz claimed that she was the family bread winner when she was a girl causing her to be abused by a humiliated father.

r101 Which must be why Taylor is still being much discussed on DL despite dying wheelchair bound at the age of 79.

When the little rich girl had the disciple to physically get hurt for her roles (National Velvet at 12), remember her lines etc and the poor orphan girl just won't show on set or require 40 takes for one line, I know who I'm rooting for.

The line that they claim took 40 takes to get is clearly dubbed. She has her back to the camera and the sound is slightly different.

R102 her father owned a successful art gallery in London and LA. They were friends with Joseph Kennedy, and Victor Cazalet was Liz's godfather. When the family moved back to the US, they resided in Beverly Hills.

Not being a guttersnipe = crime in our era of victimhood glorification and rich-envy.

If Monroe was at all considerate to other people, she should have stopped taking on film roles in her increasingly messed up 30s. She was clearly unable to function as an actress by that point - unable to show up, delivering lines correctly etc - and was a hazard to the cast and crew whose jobs and livelihoods she routinely put at risk.

R105. Just repeating what Liz said in a I believe B Walters interview.

R95, No. Michael Wilding was 20 years Elizabeth's senior and was too much of a gentleman to strike her. He loathed confrontation and put up with her shenanigans. Taylor admitted to henpecking him, striking him, and goading him to hit her just to get a reaction. She later said that he was one of the nicest people she had known.

Mike Todd, who came after Wilding, was more of her match. He was physically abusive, but so was she. And he apologized with expensive gifts, which she loved. Poor Liz associated battery with caring. But that's something she learned from her dear mother.

One big difference between Liz and Marilyn is that Liz was materialistic and Marilyn wasn't in her private life although she often played such roles. But Liz would often demand that her men and directors shower her with expensive jewels, which she loved. On the other hand , Marilyn lived simply by movie star standards, and her jewelry (whens he wore it) was often paste.

r109 etc is beginning to sound like one of those "Monroe is better" stans who show up at every Taylor thread.

FYI, Liz was also willing to wear paste.

Ever heard of the Mike Todd earrings? During courtship, Mike wanted to buy something fancy for Liz in at a jewelry place in Paris. Liz, however surprised him by choosing only a pair of paste (fake) diamond earrings, saying she like the style of it. So no, she did not go all greedy and demand Todd to shower her with expensive jewels. Some months later she went to put them on and noticed a difference. They looked clean and bright - and were heavier than she remembered. When she asked Todd about them, he replied that he had them remade...this time with real diamonds. Liz was not a gold digger and Mike Todd appreciated that by being romantic. It's all on record in bios and Auction of A Lifetime DVD.

Liz followed her heart when it comes to whom to bed/marry. All her husbands were either physically attractive like Wilding/Burton or charismatic like Todd. In Wilding's and Fisher's cases Liz was the breadwinner, and she had far greater earning power than Burton throughout their relationship.

Marilyn, on the other hand, only bedded/married butt ugly men she wasn't even attracted to (aka Joe and Arthur) presumably to elevate her social status. This is also a sign of her being materialistic.

Wearing Mike Todd Earings, 1958.

Also with those paste turned real earrings.

R38 why did Todd name the plane "The Liz"? I thought Taylor hated that nickname?

Plane was ironically called "The Lucky Liz". It was probably a playful attempt to annoy Taylor. I think it was after the crash that Taylor seriously began to loath the nickname.

In her 60s and still wearing the Mike Todd Earrings.