How are gay Brits prepping for hard Brexit?

I hope the people are ok

This is the fault of the politicians. All of them.

What exactly was the point of Brexit again?

[quote]What exactly was the point of Brexit again?

Brown people OP, the oldster Brits don't like the brown people coming to their country.

R3, wasn't the Polish Plumber white?

And Brexit solves that how, exactly ?

I can save some insects. Where should I send?

Darfur Orpah, do you know it's Christmastime at all?

I think DO feasted on Christmas Mouse, r8.

Hard Brexit sounds better than a soft or floppy Brexit.

Well tonight thank god its them instead of me.

R2

The European Union has become increasingly belligerent and totalitarian over the last decade since the great financial crisis. People in Britain have had enough. They do not want to lose their British identity and become just another small state in a large bureaucratic nightmare.

The euro will not survive anyway, so the brits were smart to never adopt it.

Deutsche bank in Germany is teetering on the brink of insolvency. A breakdown in Germany would almost ensure a return to the deutsche mark.

R6

It returns sovereignty to the people of the United Kingdom.

They will no longer be a vassal of Brussels.

It allows for the creation of a more robust import and export rules.

Most importantly it removes the UK from the bureaucratic nightmare that is going to eventually destroy the European Union.

Go Brexit...! and fuck this noxious globalization that's only benefited China and corporate overlords.

Please send Christmas food.

I see the resident Brexit trolls at r5 and r12/r13 have found another thread to spread their Russian-sponsored talking points: Germany bad, EU dictatorial, England better off alone... and something about no more immigrants?

Uncle Vlad must be proud. Shame about everyone else in the UK having to bear the consequences.

I am not a "Brit" you Americans, I am an English man.

R16

Anyone accusing people of being Boris or a Russian troll immediately gets blocked.

That joke is so fucking tired. Just accept that some people aren’t as prone to believing propaganda.

I’m sure you’ll be fine when this reckless demonization of Russia leads to fucking World War III you stupid cunt.

Theresa will make this a soft landing.

[quote]I am not a "Brit" you Americans, I am an English man.

Great so stay in England. Why are so many Brits moving to LA recently? We are going to lose our identity. Espeically with thier bad taste in overly pretentious traditional design aesthetic.

I live in the UK and will be eligible for a British passport in 2023. I wanted one for the ability to live anywhere in the EU. With what's happening with Brexit I'm wondering if I should just move back home.

"Reckless demonization of Russia"? Because they're just the innocent victim of all this fake news about hacking and troll farms, amirite, r12/r13/r18?

I'd give you bonus points for trying to link the term "propaganda" to the "reckless demonization of Russia", but you're laying it on just a bit too thick. Tip: less is more (for next time you're not trolling).

The creative class wanted to stay because of all the lucrative EU grants.

The creative class, including musicians, told the youngster to vote stay to keep the gravy / sauce train going.

The EU was a step closer to a One World Order.

So many Russian bots already...

Go die in your Gulag, assholes.

R18 is so brilliant he can't recognize Russian propaganda.

R18 should die in grease fire, the world would be cleaner without him.

I'M READY FOR IT HARD!

[quote] Hard Brexit sounds better than a soft or floppy Brexit.

Which do you choose, a hard or soft option?

Oddly, people like democracy. The European Parliament represents its polar opposite. (Like Macron, it doesn’t represent The People, and indeed, holds them in contempt: it represents that indentured Mercedes-chauffeured global elite such as is represented at the UN.)

That Brexit has been such an agonised parting is solely due to the smug, unelected preening and officious fat cats of the Euro Parliament. No one likes parting with power, and the corrupt least of all. Their actions have been a living demonstration of this truism. What’s most sad is they’ve been able to get some deluded leftists to do their dancing for them. If only those poor poppets knew the truth. The eurocrats wouldn’t care if their limos splashed them with mud.

R29 Shut up Boris.

R23 I see what you did there.

R2 It was supposed to settle the 'European question' in the Conservative Party, for at least a generation. This would have quietened Tory critics on the Eurosceptic wing of the party, and presumably, neuter UKIP.

Areas like Wales and the North, will lose EU funding, both voted overwhelming for Brexit. The government has not promised the replace this funding.

R29, You lie.

The gays are all in Berlin trying to find tops who will fuck the woe out of them.

[quote] I am not a "Brit" you Americans, I am an English man.

No, R17, either you're just a moron rehashing Russian propaganda claptrap.

Or you're just a Russian prop troll trying to disseminate Russian propaganda messages on a gay board.

[quote]The euro will not survive anyway, so the brits were smart to never adopt it.

I agree.

[quote]Brown people OP, the oldster Brits don't like the brown people coming to their country.

Neither do we. Hundreds of thousands of African migrants. We've had enough. Thank you very much.

Since 2 years now the Brexiters say other EU countries will follow the glorious British lead and EU gonna collapse.

It's not going to happen, UK's economy will collapse before the EU.

You like the French Yellow vests, you gonna adore the British Yellow vests once Little Englanders realize they have been manipulated by Boris and his friends.

Here's an explanation of Brexit for Americans from a below-the-line commentator in the Guardian:

"Imagine that Texas decides to leave the Union because they're "tired of being dictated to by Washington DC". They do so after a Texas referendum in which Texans who live in other states are not allowed to vote.

One of the main reasons for the vote was the idea that non-Texans can be expelled from the New State. New Yorkers, Californians, Alabamans, Mississippians all barging ahead in the queue and taking those jobs and benefits from real Texans. And no more Supreme Court telling the Texans what to do with their guns and their Bibles. Even if the Supreme Court actually has let Texans have both and indeed made it the norm in most parts of the US at large.

And no more money to Washington.

But...

Texas still wants a seat on the FBI, the CDC, NOAA and other very useful federal organizations because, well, they're useful. In fact, the notion that Texas no longer would have any say in how the GPS system works really rankled in San Antonio.

And of course, Texans still want to freely travel to the rest of the US as much as they like. The border controls are one-way only. You can't come to us, but we can visit you.

And of course, goods manufactured in Texas must be allowed to be freely exported to the rUSA (what remains of the US) and really Texan banks must be allowed to operate freely in the rUSA as well. Because, well, because it's Texas, dammit!

But of course, Texas will make its own trade deals nonetheless with the rest of the world, importing goods at will through Houston seaport and the big airports.

It's the best of all worlds, see.

And it's also a complete fantasy. Unicorn territory.

This is what the UK is trying to do, and this is an easy and correct way to explain it."

And here's a Twitter thread from Hugo Rifkind, for those who haven't seen it already:

The thing is, the best way to understand Theresa May’s predicament is to imagine that 52 percent of Britain had voted that the government should build a submarine out of cheese. Now, Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it’s a completely insane thing to do. However, in order to become PM, she had to pretend that she thought building a submarine out of cheese was fine and could totally work. "Cheese means cheese," she told us all, madly. Then she actually built one. It’s shit. Of course it is. For God’s sake, are you stupid? It’s a submarine built out of cheese. So now, having built a shit cheese submarine, she has to put up with both Labour and Tory Brexiters insisting that a less shit cheese submarine could have been built. They’re all lying, and they know it. So does everybody else. We've covered this already, I know, but it’s cheese and it’s a submarine. How good could it possibly be? Only she can’t call them out on this. Because she has spent the past two years also lying, by pretending she really could build a decent submarine out of cheese. So that’s where we are. On balance, I this analogy works fine, perhaps except for the submarine and cheese parts, which need a little work.

People who don't understand Brexit and Brexit consequences should look at "#3Blokes in a pub" on Youtube and James O'Brien LBC podcast.

Of course, our Boris gonna hate them.

Oh look, Boris's paymaster has come out and told us directly what script they're following.

For OP - I'm a gay Scot, not a gay Brit. I'm pretty much a European federalist. You won't be surprised to learn that I'm *not* happy. I'm prepping by trying every damn day not to have an aneurysm at each new example of the moronic idiocy of almost all English (and unfortunately also a few Scottish) politicians.

Oh dear. People spouting these bullshit talking points about Brexit.

Brexit was Britian's version of electing Trump. And amusingly the same forces were behind both movements.

No one's coming out of this well. The Brits, with their infighting and lack of clarity, look incompetent while the E.U. has come across as unmoveable and threatening. And it's not the first time, either; David Cameron's "negotiation" demonstrated the same things.

I doubt any country is going to follow the U.K. out of the E.U. because they'll all have been watching the U.K. get punished. And bearing in mind the U.K. is hardly small fry in Europe, what country could possibly do any better?! Not a single one.

R42 There's NO punishment.

The EU just apply the law. Applying the law is seen as punishment by Brexiters because they're stupid people who think UK deserves some special treatment and doesn't have to follow any common rules.

Well, the EU doesn't care about UK being a super special snowflake. I know the wake up is quite hard.

I'm gay too.

Thanks, r39.

What they've always done: put the kettle on.

And drink themsleves into a stupor nightly.

R3 Because there are 17.5 million 65 year old racists living in the UK?

No, that is complete bs, R47.

R43 is right on. Britain needs a new refurbished relationship with Europe and Ireland. 19th century attitudes cannot work.

R40 Putin of courses would like to see more splintering of the west. He uses democratic practices upon democracy.

We do nothing to depose him. We only impose sanctions. We do not try to get him and authoritarian system because our business leaders and our political leaders they fund are benefiting from associating with Putin and Russia.

In short, he uses the corruption in the west to undermine western democracy. The west is complicit in Russia's corruption and strengthens Putins authoritarianism.

The paranoia about Russia is a throwback to the Cold War era and the Red Scare.

I've been hearing about the threat of Russia since I can remember....since Nikita Khrushchev.

The "he uses the corruption in the west to undermine western democracy" is right out of the McCarthy era.

R49 Get a grip....you sound hysterical.

R50 Commie Loony or Trumpster?

Boris...R51...my name is Boris.

I sometimes thanks god that I'm not part of the west and therefore I'm not prone to fall into the whole "The Russians did it" tin foil hatism.

R49 Should study a little history....

So you honestly think Russia has no influence in the West? There has been no manipulation at all on social media? R53

R55 Can you point to some nefarious Facebook ads and articles that you honestly believe originated from Russia and swayed public opinion?

Do you realize that "Worldwide, there are over 2.27 billion monthly active Facebook users"...."There are 1.15 billion mobile daily active users".... "1.49 billion people on average log onto Facebook daily and are considered daily active users"...."On average, the Like and Share Buttons are viewed across almost 10 million websites daily."....."Photo uploads total 300 million per day. "......"Every 60 seconds on Facebook: 510,000 comments are posted, 293,000 statuses are updated, and 136,000 photos are uploaded.".....

You honestly think any drop-in-the-bucket posts out of Russia influence anything?

R56 I think you can influence people on facebook, it's quite easy and cost next to nothing.

Putin hates the EU and certainly helped Donald. Is it only the Russian influence? Of course not, but you don't need to change that many voters's mind to change the result of an election.

Russian trolls are out in force it seems. R56, studies have shown that many FB ads were paid by Russians and there were tons of social media accounts originating from Russia with the sole purpose of sowing discord in various groups in the US. Gays and lesbians were targeted separately which is why we've seen Russian trolls here as well. Russians are partly behind the huge amount of anti-trans posts.

They are doing it all around the world, and have been doing it for a while. That's not a question of belief but the truth. Russians have also been behind some of the anti-vaccine propaganda sites. Now, that tells us they see this whole influencing thing as war since they are trying to cause outbreaks of illnesses in the West. Putin is evil and Russkies who follow him are not any better.

[quote]I think you can influence people on facebook, it's quite easy and cost next to nothing.

OK.... please. let me ask you again: "Can you point to some nefarious Facebook ads and articles that you honestly believe originated from Russia and swayed public opinion?"

Where are they? If among the BILLIONS of opinons about everything posted everyday on Facebook there are some many coming from Russia to make a dent....where are they?

R59 I'm not going to point the articles for you. All the major newspapers in the world wrote about it, google is your friend.

[quote]Russians are partly behind the huge amount of anti-trans posts.

Oh really? Link please.

You honestly think good old all-American gay men walk lock-step opinion-wise?

R60 You can Google all you want... and the results are laughable. The fact is: you've never seen not even one of the nefarious evil sinister Facebook ads of which you speak.

R62 I followed enough of the Brexit campaign to see them, Boris.

R59, you wrote this earlier:

[quote]The paranoia about Russia is a throwback to the Cold War era and the Red Scare. I've been hearing about the threat of Russia since I can remember....since Nikita Khrushchev.

Let's go ask the Crimeans if the fear of the Russians is all just an empty threat.

R61, you're clearly not an American or a Brit. You probably thought you were oh so clever in R52 when telling the truth.

R63 Post one.

[quote]you're clearly not an American or a Brit. You probably thought you were oh so clever in [R52] when telling the truth.

Paranoid nut.

[quote]Brown people OP, the oldster Brits don't like the brown people coming to their country.

Those pesky Mexicans. Nothing is out of reach for them !!

PSA: to make most of the trolling on this thread disappear, just block Boris at r66.

Bingo -- now we can have a rational discussion.

The stupidity of R68 and his ilk:

Difference of opinion = trolling.

But yours isn’t just “difference of opinion,” though, is it r69? Your use of English is wonky (your command of the idiomatic aspects of the language is just off), and everything you say seems to come from the Russian troll-farm playbook. Even your strategy is straight out of the same rule book—you’re like a paid heckler who’s told to turn up wherever a crowd gathers and get the crowd to start bickering and to fragment.

As for all your doubts (or at least the doubts you’re trying to instil in others) about the use of social media by Russians, all I can say is that I’ve seen the manipulation of FB at work first hand in the very tense lead-up to many a European election, and I’ve even seen some pretty clever friends of mine fall into the trap of reposting obviously fake stuff. Again, the strategy isn’t even, or only, to get some candidate, or party/ies, or referendum question over the line. It’s to get all that anger, anxiety, paranoia, and lack of faith in the democratic process under way. Even if Trump hadn’t won, even if Brexit hadn’t won, even if Le Pen didn’t win, even if the AFD doesn’t win, even if the 5 Star Movement and the Lega hadn’t won, you’d still have large swathes of the electorate primed for the next round of anti-system candidates and parties. If you chip away at the system you want to bring down or weaken long enough, you’ll get there. The strategy is perfect, and it’s reaping its rewards now and will probably continue to do so over the next few election cycles.

(And I just bet your next retort is “you’re a loon, r70,” or “you sound unhinged.” Classic.)

R70 You are in fact a loon. A paranoid loon.

Example:

[quote]But yours isn’t just “difference of opinion,” though, is it [R69]? Your use of English is wonky (your command of the idiomatic aspects of the language is just off), and everything you say seems to come from the Russian troll-farm playbook.

This is the "world wide web"...people from all over the world post on Datalounge.

It'll probably be a surprise for you, but for many of us, English is not our first language.

I've been posting on DL for about 10 years. Currently you'll find posts by me on threads entitled: "Ann Miller", "Gay Porn Theaters", "Your favorite Christmas songs", "Michelle Obama´s Yellow Gown ", "Johnny Mathis".....

Russian troll indeed....

Bravo R37. Excellent explanation.

[quote]Again, the strategy isn’t even, or only, to get some candidate, or party/ies, or referendum question over the line. It’s to get all that anger, anxiety, paranoia, and lack of faith in the democratic process under way. Even if Trump hadn’t won, even if Brexit hadn’t won, even if Le Pen didn’t win, even if the AFD doesn’t win, even if the 5 Star Movement and the Lega hadn’t won, you’d still have large swathes of the electorate primed for the next round of anti-system candidates and parties.

This is such tin-foil hat, conspiracy theory, paranoid blather.

Funny here in Italy no one, but no one, is blaming the election of the 5Star/Lega on Russian meddling. No one.

Rather than blaming Russians...and Facebook posts....the Left has taken it's responsibility for years of bad governance.

The weird thing is, the EU is like something Russia would love!

Unelected parliament? CHECK.

Rides roughshod over regional states? CHECK.

Power hungry, and constantly demanding more power? CHECK.

Accountable to absolutely no one? CHECK.

Stuffed with an indentured self-serving elite? CHECK.

Why anyone would think for a single moment that Russian propaganda would be proBrexit defeats me.

R74 aka DL's latest anti EU/pro Putin troll, how's the weather in Italy?

R73 and R74 are the same user. And he's the Russian propaganda troll in the Russians Launched Pro-Jill Stein Social Media Blitz thread. Same usage of syntactical structures, same moronic usage of dots in between words.

[quote][R73] and [R74] are the same user.

God you people are a chore. More paranoia.

No, R73 and R74 are not the same person.

It really puzzles me why the Left is so pro the EU and globalisation. Why? I thought the Left stood up for the individual and local enterprise, but that’s clearly not so. Its myrmidons champion Collectivism, and undemocratic representation like 1930s agents of Stalin in the Ukraine. It really puzzles me as to why. Obviously the EU has done one hell of a propaganda job to turn them into its dupes.

Asking how gay Brits are prepping for a hard Brexit is an open invitation for Russian trolls. I am tempted to stay off DL until and unless DL can find a way to identify trolls and get them off our site.

Let's deal with that R74 points then shall we?

Unelected parliament? WRONG The Members of the European Parliament are elected by the people of the national states, indeed 500 million people will get a chance to vote for their MEP.

Rides roughshod over regional states? WRONG There are no "regional states" within the EU, only member states of the EU and any proposed laws need to be agreed by all 28 member states.

Power hungry, and constantly demanding more power? WRONG see above.

Accountable to absolutely no one? Except for the 500 million people that voted for the 7512 MEPs but who's counting?

Stuffed with an indentured self-serving elite? That's just opinion, you're entitled to hold whatever pleases you.

As to how are the enlightened (there are always bad apples) gay citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland getting ready for Brexit? By fighting as hard as possible to overturn the single worst example of a country shooting itself in the foot that ever existed. Ideology must never win over common sense.

[quote]Power hungry, and constantly demanding more power? WRONG see above.

Jesus Christ. History really isn’t your subject, is it! The EU was once a simple trading entity. If it had stayed that way, no one would have a problem with it. However, it has, every year, demanded more powers to become a pan-european government.

[quote]Stuffed with an indentured self-serving elite? That's just opinion

No, it’s a fact. Just look at some of those who have acted as European Commissioners: Peter Mandelson, and Neil Kinnock to name two. Beyond belief!

[quote]How are gay Brits prepping for hard Brexit?

OP, you do prep before pushing in, not after pulling out.

[quote]the single worst example of a country shooting itself in the foot that ever existed.

*waves in American*

I will put the into perspective. Gus O'Donnell was previously the Cabinet Secretary and Head of the Civil Service. Our public Administrators are hugely powerful.

The Civil Service will not allow anything that will cause chaos to happen. Government Ministers have very little power and Civil Servants control all government functions. If they do not like a policy they will sabotage it, very effectively Poll Tax, Universal Credit.

He wasn't called GOD because of his initials, no Minister will dare fuck with their will and interpretation.

Think Yes Minister/Prime Minister.

Read this back to yourself at the end of January/February.

I was reading that 4 automotive plants are likely to close because of Brexit and Trump's tariffs. I wonder how many of the 72,000 workers who are likely to lose their jobs voted for Brexit?

r3 Quite a large number of "Brown people" voted in favour of Brexit as well going by the Birmingham result.

All gays should immediatly immigrate to the Pacific Palisades like I did.

Why can use Streisand's mall to house them until we find them suitable lodgings. The UK is so over!

As to my history knowledge R81, my thesis was on the British car industry and its decline following reliance and focus on former Commonwealth countries and US sales to the detriment of sales in the European market. An example being Triumph's realisation of this slow down in US sales and attempt at mitigation of this by the opening of a factory in Belgium to reduce tariff costs on European sales. Clearly a complicated subject as not only was the late entry into the EU a factor but also the Labour government at the times drive to create regional jobs by the scattering of manufacturing plants to various high employment locations. This caused quality issues, raised costs due to transportation and was the absolute opposite approach of say VW, who created a single large plant in Wolfsburg. Ask yourself why we are not driving around today in Austin, Triumph, Rover cars but VW, Renault, Fiat cars.

Facts and anti-EU sentiment rarely go hand-in-hand it has to be said and let me make it clear, I am not an EU apologists; there is much that needs to be changed with the EU, but that is better done inside as one of the leading member states than outside.

Here is the rather democratic way in which commissioners who are usually chosen from experienced national politicians, are voted in:

A new Commission is appointed every five years, within six months of the elections to the European Parliament.

The procedure for appointing a Commissioner is as follows:

The member state governments agree together on who to designate as the new Commission President. The Commission President-designate, in discussion with the member state governments, chooses the other 29 Members of the Commission. The new Parliament then interviews all 30 members and gives its opinion on the entire "college". If approved, the new Commission can officially start work in the the January following the European Parliamentary elections.

It was the British Empire that once gave that little island just north of France its place as a world power with great riches. World War II and all that change it brought finished off what bit of the Empire that was left by the mid-20th Century. Not long after, the Common Market provided the UK with the opportunity to once again be a major player in system larger than itself.

Now this little country, a bit smaller than Michigan, wants to break ties to the EU and be independent? Don't forget the Empire. Don't forget that the source of the UK's power has long come from its relationships to other countries. The UK has not really been independent for hundreds of years. But now they want to be.

A cuppa and 10 pints of lager every night are not going to get them through this successfully. And they're not going to have anything else.

I very much agree, R89. One of the biggest weaknesses of English (and I do mean English rather than British) politics for the past two or three generations has been that politicians on all sides have not realised the extent to which they were living off the capital of the Empire. Thatcher's revolution, the oil wealth she squandered, "Cool Britannia" and all the rest, hid the fact that England was declining, and had been since World War II. It now seems to be too late. The country is facing its biggest peacetime crisis in at least the past hundred years, and it's being led by second-rate politicians (both government and opposition) who would have been lucky to be allowed to manage a borough council in the 1920s.

It looks like the fault of second-rate politicians because that is who we see on the surface, but this actually is what the real power wants: the destruction of countries, the destruction of the workforce.

What is ironic about Putin's desire to break apart the EU into its member states, and thus weaken the threat on the border of Russia, is the propaganda he and his proxies are using. That propaganda emanating from Russia is that each member state has its own history and its own unique people and how DARE a pan-national entity, a "central government" come along to try to make rules for the entire organization of members. Sounds good, right? Everyone ought to be patriotic to his/her own nation and resist this central government idea, even if the relaxation of borders has allowed great levels of prosperity to filter to most member nations.

Now let's consider the history of Russia. A middling Slavic state, over the course of 800 years, acquires or takes over a huge amount of territory, made up of 150 unique cultures, most with their own languages and customs, and unique styles of local governance, and it imposes its language and its centralized form of government over them all at gunpoint. Ultimately (at the end of WWII) it exerts its will over nations that had been traditional enemies, that had 1000 year long histories, treating them as vassals . When its conglomeration (the USSR) falls apart in 1990, the largest dozen of those 150 unique cultures couldn't wait to declare independence, and distance themselves culturally as far from Russia as possible, reviving their traditional languages and customs.

What is Russia seeking to do now? To take those nations back into its fold, either by economic pressure, by propaganda, by military threat or even invasion, or by blackmail using oil and energy as a weapon. So even as it tries to revive its massive centralized "empire", it is doing all it can to break apart the European Union by arguing that a Union of member states having a level of governance over individual nations is inherently evil and ought to be fought against at every opportunity. Compare how Russia treats Chechnya and its separatists to the propaganda support it gives to separatists in Catalonia and similar areas to get a clue how differently it views conflicts within its own borders and how it views them in other countries.

[quote]That propaganda emanating from Russia is that each member state has its own history and its own unique people and how DARE a pan-national entity, a "central government" come along to try to make rules for the entire organization of members.

Discontent with the European union has nothing to do with Russian propaganda.

The Russians bought Brexit by aiding and abetting criminals like Arron Banks and Farage. Wealthy individuals the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg with interests in offshore tax avoidance schemes wish to protect and increase their wealth. There is no coincidence that those that look the most likely to benefit from Brexit are the very wealthy and due to the new EU Anti-Tax avoidance rules coming into force in 2019 that looked at risk. When you consider that the UK is the global leader in offshore tax havens things start to look suspiciously more than reducing immigration (most comes from outside of the EU anyway) , retaining sovereignty (we have always had a veto), reclaiming our fishing grounds (25% of fishing rights belongs to 5 families, all topping The Sunday Times rich list, fishing accounts for less than half a percent of the UK economy) and last but not least a blue passport (we agreed the colour, could always have kept it blue anyway, other EU members do).

R93 If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to present it. A statement by itself is simply an opinion, and can instantly be discarded as meaningless.

R95 Try reading the "The geography of EU discontent" put out by the European Commission.

Not one word about "That propaganda emanating from Russia ".

R95 This is a great analysis of the rise of the Euro-skeptic Lega/5Star government in Italy and the country's discontent with the EU.

No mention of "That propaganda emanating from Russia ".

If the Italian people's discontent with the European union is due, as you say, to Russian propaganda would you please provide evidence.

Debate: Stop Brexit

Posen Discusses the Damage of Brexit to the British Economy

R45, I've been listening to 3 Blokes in a Pub YT podcasts for a couple of months now. Thanks!

In this video, Jason J. Hunter (former international trade negotiator) discusses how a no deal Brexit would be catastrophic for the UK economy. He also discusses how the WTO rules work.

No Deal would be superior to Bad Deal.

The EU is dying. Must Britain die with it!?!

The person/organization at R99 WANTS to damage Britain. He just wants it done his way, with Globalization.

There's this:

And this:

As well as this:

Oh yes, and this:

Well, you get the point. I could go on all night. But that's ok. I'm not pretending that people in Europe haven't always bitched about the EU, and that some feel it's a bureaucratic quagmire that just creates problems, with some justification - BUT - here's the salient point. Only in the past 3-4 years have things ever reached the point where social media is ablaze with people demanding that countries exit from the EU. That part is new, and that part is being driven by Russia. Sorry - the evidence is all over the place.

R107

You are saying that people are so simple minded that Russian trolls can convince them that these things are real, but YOU know they aren’t? Arrogance.

You think everyone who votes against the broken neoliberal order is some Putin puppet?

Trump and Brexit: what happens when stupid people are allowed to vote.

R109

That mentality is gonna win all the elections!

R109

Only property owners should be allowed to vote.

Anyone receiving government benefits or paycheck should not be allowed to vote due to conflict of interest. No government employee, or Social Security recipients, or student in debt, should be allowed to vote for more money to be spent on their well-being.

Apply plenty of lube... You can take a hard Brexit like a champ!

[quote] R101: The EU is dying. Must Britain die with it!?!

Every day that the UK is not at war with Germany or Russia, is a day that is a success.

r108 That's NOT what I was saying at all. I'm saying that people can complain about something for years, and nibble around the edges of making it better. (Such is life in ANY democracy). People vote for a politician they think can make some changes, without much optimism that huge changes can or will be made, because changing any policy or any aspect of a government or economy is like turning the Titanic in a bathtub, so it's always baby steps. Nonetheless there are numerous ways to show that the EU has made the lives of 350,000,000 Europeans better - economically, but also socially. Easier, more convenient travel across borders has meant that people have a much better understanding of how other people live and can pick and choose what they'd like to retain and what they'd like to discard - that's one example of many. The ability to easily live or work in another country that's been on your bucket list - also a great benefit. Huge problems remain to work out - work that might take generations. Integrating 18th century economies with 21st century economies, trying to reconcile banking practices and taxation practices, etc. Enormously difficult. But all in all, just comparing GDPs from before and after, it's easy to see the benefits. Now there have also been losers. Declining industries, farmers unable to compete with better climates, etc. Very easy to chart on maps where those winners and losers are - and also easy for Russians to see and to target their propaganda towards the disgruntled - which they have done very successfully.

Why Do Brits Think The EU Is Their Enemy?

QI - Euro Myths

[quote]Janda told Polish Radio he did not like the approach of the EU foreign policy chief because she "sees no threat."

Interesting: the EU foreign policy chief sees no threat.

[quote](Zuckerberg) explained that Russian accounts primarily used ads to influence views on issues rather than promoting specific candidates or political messaging.

Please post a few of these ads. Let’s see them.

[quote]He said the EU would not stand for “an internet that is the wild west, where anything goes”.

[quote]“We have said publicly, and we repeat it here today, that if the necessary progress is not made we will not hesitate to reconsider our options including eventually regulation,” he said.

Read between the lines: censorship.

[quote]Nonetheless there are numerous ways to show that the EU has made the lives of 350,000,000 Europeans better - economically, but also socially.

There are numerous ways to show that in the Southern Europe lives are worse.

Joseph E. Stiglitz is University Professor at Columbia University, recipient of the 2001 Nobel Memorial Prize in economics writing in TheGuardian:

[quote]The eurozone was flawed at birth. The structure of the eurozone – the rules, regulations and institutions that govern it – is to blame for the poor performance of the region...

[quote]The euro has failed to achieve either of its two principal goals of prosperity and political integration: these goals are now more distant than they were before the creation of the eurozone.

Is he a Russian Troll too?

OMG....OMG....Russian trolls have infested The NewYorker!!!!

Another Russian troll!!!....Marion Tupy

(His articles have been published in the Financial Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Wall Street Journal, U.S. News and World Report, The Atlantic, Newsweek, The U.K. Spectator, Weekly Standard, Foreign Policy, Reason magazine....)

Good articles r120 . Note however that NONE are advocating for the dissolution of the EU. They are strongly advocating for REFORM. Reform of the banking system so that a single currency could work, reforms of other types to make it worthwhile for countries to stay together and reap the benefits of a single market. Since all three point, in a way, to the intransigence of Germany on certain economic points, it might well be that the EU is doomed. However, the authors are not CALLING for it. That is what makes them different from trolls, who are strongly arguing for dissolution without ANY attempts at reform.

All I know is life was more enjoyable pre 2106. Brexit ( and Trump which has similar motivations/support ) have wreaked havoc on everyday life and brought no joy whatsoever other than to the swivel eyed supporters ( 'I want my house to worth less!). Personally, now we are stuck with this mess, I want the hardest ,most vicious, foreigner-hating, reactionary Brexit possible, one to satisfy the most red faced of gammon so that once it entirely fucks the country we can piece what we can from the ashes with not a peep from Brexiteers about how 'Remoaners' ruined their beautiful Brexit.

The. EU countries with strong economies and good public service (transport, education, social benefits) are those where the national politicians did not blame the EI for everything while fucking things up on national level (Germany , Scandinavia etc).

The EU countries that falter are the ones where national politicians have been robbing the public blind in favour of the rich while serving their voters national whining and EU blaming (Italy, Greece, Great Britain).

Anyone who thinks the southern countries did not benefit from the EU has not been to those countries in the seventies.

All that is happening is we are going from a country in the EU to an independent country not in the EU like all the other countries not in the EU. You know like New Zealand and USA. Nobody in the UK voted for things like the UK patent Office to be an EU body. That aspect of being in the EU has been completely insane.

[quote]Good articles [R120] . Note however that NONE are advocating for the dissolution of the EU.

Don't change the goalposts R121.

It was stated upthread:

[quote]That propaganda emanating from Russia is that each member state has its own history and its own unique people and how DARE a pan-national entity, a "central government" come along to try to make rules for the entire organization of members.

I, in turn, stated that "Discontent with the European union has nothing to do with Russian propaganda."

And I followed up with reputable authors on the subject. NONE of them mention Russia propaganda. None.

While none of the articles I've posted advocate the dissolution of the EU, they do give legitimate reasons for people's discontent. Without any mention of Russian trolls.

You don't need to be a Russian troll to hold the opinion that "The European Union is doomed to fail" or "The eurozone was flawed at birth. The structure of the eurozone – the rules, regulations and institutions that govern it – is to blame for the poor performance of the region."

But Jesus, look up thread: any criticism of the EU is met with infantile accusations of being Russian... and adolescent name calling: HEY BORIS!

Or the picking apart of a posters syntax! The stuff of paranoid nuts.

Furthermore, I have asked you to post examples of the nefarious FB Russian troll ads that you're convinced swayed elections.

You haven't posted any. I'd like to see them.

People are rejecting austerity-globalization. And the 1% (and their media puppets) will never admit that people are rejecting globalism. Never. So they say "Russian propaganda." That they are saying this over and over IS the propaganda.

The problem in the US and the UK is that there was no genuine force, party etc for people to support that wanted to reject globalization. This will happen in every Western country. Globalization is about bringing the first world to the third world in living standards. So this will keep happening. And they will try to say "Russian propaganda" every time. The problem now with the globalization push is that it is more than throwing out one leader or party. All of finance-govt power is connected internationally. How to throw that out?

Given that you don't seem to know the difference between the eurozone (maybe doomed to fail or shrink, who knows, but unrelated to Britain or Brexitin any case) and the EU (by and large useful and a powerful force for peace and prosperity in post-WWII Europe), pardon us for questioning the value of your input, r118/r120/r125.

No thinking person who cares about the future of Britain can possibly be favor of Brexit any form, hard, soft or squishy. Sorry.

Oh....look.... a Russian troll writing for the left-leaning WashingtonPost!!

"Brexit would be hard for Britain. Staying in the E.U. would be worse."

"Brexit is radical change, but Britain should nevertheless embrace it. Europe will soon become the iron weights around Britain’s ankles. It should escape now and embrace what might become its finest hour."

I’d prefer a stiff entry, rather than a hard brexit.

The politicians will not support May's softer Brexit because they are thinking of their careers, not the country.

Will the UK be allowed to keep Michelle Visage - currently stunning in her West End debut as a replacement in the classic "Everybody's Talking About Jamie" - after Brexit?

Or, like the banking sector, will she be shuttled off to Dublin or Frankfurt?

R130

I agree the politicians are thinking of their careers, but that is why I believe they will support a hard Brexit. The union has shown its hand already, and has no aces.

Do you think the yellow vests were a passing fancy, like Trump was? That austerity plus low skill immigration will win elections by Labour in the future...you have another think coming my brother!

According to the French guests I had to my house for dinner on Sunday, the yellow vests have some legitimate concerns, but they were adamant that the rioting and property damage so prominent in the news were definitely brought in by hard-right and hard-left forces and unrelated to the peaceful yellow vest demonstrators.

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

OK, I have to use some other links for r125.

and of course, there's this:

And this:

R122 Look a Labour supporter who's just as good with numbers as the Shadow Home Sec'y. 2106 indeed.

And what will you do when a hard Brexit or no-deal (which looks more and more likely) doesn't destroy the UK, economically or diplomatically? Remember all those predictions - from the same experts making them now - about how the economy would collapse completely if Leave won? How did that work out?

R135 THOSE tweets influenced elections? I've seen far worse since the internet's been around they weren't coming from Russia.

And it looks as if you did missed one important point:

[quote]Surprisingly, all the posts around Brexit in this small snapshot were posted after the June vote.

*And it looks as if you missed one important point:

r138 Serious effects have already begun. The financial industry has been the brightest star of the British economy for the past 2+ decades. Now look at what has happened to that (and this is PRE Brexit):

"Investment from abroad in Britain’s financial-services firms fell 26 percent last year, EY said in a report released Monday. During the same period, Germany experienced a 64 percent increase, while the figure for France more than doubled."

It's not that Great Britain will be destroyed. But it's an island nation that cannot feed its population from its own land. It has to make or produce products (even financial or computer-related products) that people in other lands want, in order to make the currency that will enable its citizens to have the first-world lifestyle they are accustomed to. It is NOT self-sufficient and doesn't have the resources to be self-sufficient. It used to have guaranteed markets when it was a naval super-power and had colonized a good deal of the world. That is all gone now. Pretty much all economic experts on the situation predict the same thing - that there will be a substantial contraction in Britain's economy - the equivalent of a severe recession. And there is no reason to assume that with an aging population and anti-migrant sentiment, that Britain will "grow" itself out of a recession. It will skid downward to join other similarly sized countries, but does have the advantage that it has a pretty developed infrastructure of transportation and other delivery systems. Most likely it will shrink to an economy somewhere between that of France and Italy and remain there.

Glad the grammar patrol in St. Petersburg caught your error

No brexit. No Putin.

The article at R137 makes my point:

[quote]In terms of more tangible evidence, what we can say is that while there was indeed Brexit-related bot activity on social media during (and after) the debate, there is little evidence that it was predominantly directed by Moscow, or importantly that it had any noticeable effect.

[quote]However, when attempting to gauge the impact of these Russian-linked tweets, it is important to note that the vast majority (39,000) were tweeted the day after the vote, thereby nullifying their actual impact on the referendum.

R36 "He added that some form of regulation of the large social media firms might now be required."

Objective: censorship

Well, if it's hard, it's going up their arses.

Actually the first article pointedly said "This small snapshot". The article at 137 said that 20% of the 28,000,000 tweets around the time of Brexit referencing Brexit were from bot accounts. That equates to 5.6 million tweets. They could only positively link 45,000 of those to Russian sources. That doesn't mean that there were only that many Russian-origin tweets. It should be concerning that 20% of the total tweets came from bot accounts. Those are computer-generated content accounts, and it matters a HUGE deal who programmed those computers and what content they were promoting. For all we know, many of those bot accounts could have been programmed from Russian troll farms. Moreover, the articles only counted Russian content and influence if the tweets referenced official Russian news sources such as RT and Sputnik. They didn't count "personal anecdote" type tweets, even if they came from those sources. As we have learned and noted, it's actually the Russians pretending to be natives of the countries that they are trying to interfere with who have the most influence. In the US, Russians pretended to be women from Kansas and men from Texas, for example.

Concerning Brexit:

[quote]In terms of more tangible evidence, what we can say is that while there was indeed Brexit-related bot activity on social media during (and after) the debate, there is little evidence that it was predominantly directed by Moscow, or importantly that it had any noticeable effect.

[quote]However, when attempting to gauge the impact of these Russian-linked tweets, it is important to note that the vast majority (39,000) were tweeted the day after the vote, thereby nullifying their actual impact on the referendum.

I want a total gammon Brexit, one the old sods who have hated the EU since day one are absolutely satisfied with, just so they can't whine and moan that their beautiful, tungsten tipped, fuck you Europe Brexit was hampered by 'Remoaners". We will be worse off after but that is unimportant to them it's the same type who support Trump and are so ideologically blinded they can even countenance ruin as a prospect, classic cutting off your nose to spite your face . You only have to look at who supports Brexit to know what it is, every supporter is a miserable old cunt as evidenced by posts here.

R149 part of me agrees with you, but the part that finally managed to buy my first flat 2 years ago and fears a bad recession certainly doesn't agree with you.

[quote] R37: ...Texas still wants a seat on the FBI, the CDC, NOAA and other very useful federal organizations ...

Good explanation. I recently watched a “sovereign citizen” YouTube clip where one claims “all the rights of citizens, without having to follow any of ‘your’ laws”. It sounds like that. Claiming rights without accepting responsibility. Or “representation without taxation”. Dopes.

They should have required a supermajority for such a huge change. Maybe 60%, even 66%, something like that. The US requires a supermajority for an Constitutional Amendment or impeachment, for example.

The Brexit decision was made by ~52%. Since the election, more than 2% of voters have come of age, or died. Besides, it’s such a huge change, it should have required more than a floppy majority.

I'd cancel the whole thing R150,and you are right R152 far to big a decision to allow first past the post, it's clearly the single most stupid thing the country has ever done, but the hardcore EU haters would shit the bed if the 'will of the people' was ignored. The EU has been a right wing bete noir forever and we are being led off the cliff thanks to them, a minority within a minority, as seen by the vote of confidence given to May who is a third rater presenting a plan that everybody hates and knows will make us worse off, the current deal is best. The twisted thing is, although the EU has been a Tory obsession for 40 years, they have absolutely nothing to replace it with, even during the past 2 years while the clock has been loudly ticking, nothing. I wonder if TPTB will allow a no deal scenario as it would result in total chaos, however they allowed us to get into this mess so who knows, all I know is there has been no good news thanks to this vote.This referendum has wrecked the country , obviously I have no friends who are Brexiteers, but a couple of family members who are low level racist and think immigrants will be frogmarched out of the country in March, imagine their disappointment on the day. I sometimes read the Daily Mail comments to torment myself, they sound very much like the right-wingers here, one response to someone suggesting we cancel Brexit said'you will see the kind of civil unrest this country has never seen before' the reply to that' march of the Zimmer frames'.