Are you watching the beloved Christmas classic MAME (1974) this year?

Or there's always the Christmas episode of Murder, She Wrote.

Mary!

I read on Breitbart that the 1973 oil crisis was actually caused by Lucy buying up huge stockpiles of Vaseline with which to smear the camera lens.

The Nixon Administration staged the Arab-Israeli conflict to cover it up.

Is there a way to stream "Mame" without having to pay for it?

Good question, R4. God knows anyone who pays to watch Mame needs their head examined.

I suppose Angie will be busy thinking of Patty Duke’s face as she mashes her potatoes.

I loved the original with Roslyn Russell. LB should have never ever done that movie - she was in soft focus the whole time and her acting was atrocious. That movie should have been taken out back and shot.

Yet NYT raved about Lucy.

It’s a masterpiece, you cunts!

At least Lucy never did Broomsticks and Bedknobs — the poor man’s Mary Poppins.

Yes, Angie really didn’t compare favourably to Julie Andrews.

[quote]Roslyn Russell

Oh, DEAR!

The soft-focus look was meant to evoke Classic Hollywood; that style suited the material.

Had MAME have been released a decade earlier (or even a decade later when there was a resurgent nostalgia for classic film) Ball would've almost certainly won the Oscar she was owed. But critics is 1974 didn't like it and snobbily dismissed it.

It's taken years for it to earn its deserved respect. I remember even how critical of it Datalounge used to be, but now there's a much kinder reassessment of it taking place.

This scene is great, though this clip doesn't have the jump dance that follows unfortunately.

I've watched the Roslyn Russell version over and over again, but never saw the Lucy one. I'd watch it, but I've never seen it own or offered.

Though I joke about it, in true DL Xmas tradition, Ball's performance is better than Russell's. Russell is way OTT, Ball plays it with subtlety.

If you want to imagine how Angie would've been in the role just watch the 1958 film.

The movie has aged fairly well because it looked so damned dated when it was released. Not much difference between the 50s and 70s when we're in 2018/19.

I liked that it played like one of those roadshow event musicals on the '50s and '60s. Critics in 1974 obviously found that old hat despite its obvious quality.

A description from one of the innumerable old Mame threads:

"So low, so tired, so utterly toneless ..."

"Mame stayed up all night and drank champagne! What did you expect her to sound like? Julie Andrews?"

That film made me a household name.

This photo is cute.

....

Although Lucy is terrible though much of the movie, she's quite good in the two scenes where she meets Beau's family and where she meets the Upsons. You can see young Lucy doing the movie to much different effect but old Lucy is trying the same tricks to little effect. I think Lucy's performance picks up considerably after Beau dies because she's allowed to play closer to her real age.

LB couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket.

Neither could Roz.

Or Angie.

R27, I love Angie but I agree, she isn't much of a singer. Better than Lucy, but who isn't/wasn't.

'We Need a Little Christmas' is my favorite Christmas song. I've been listening to Lucy's recording a lot lately. Her voice has a nice amount of grit which suits the song. I don't like the original Broadway version. It sounds so oddly rushed, to say nothing of Lansbury's odd fluting voice.

Why didn't Viv play Vera?

(And Gale Gordon as Beau)

....

Lucille Ball and Bea Arthur got Golden Globe Nominations for their performances. But then again, the next year, Barbra and Liza were nominated for Funny and Lucky Lady's too.

Both noms were well-deserved.

Ball should've gotten an Oscar nom for this too.

OP is an idiot who can’t even write parody lyrics that scan properly. R10 is a master of nothing except projection. That shitty movie Mrs. Edwards ruined is nothing but a poor man’s [italic]Song of the South[/italic].

[italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic] is the greatest movie ever and a preview of how great [italic]Mame[/italic] could have been if Angie was in it. Even in a cut version, more people have watched that movie since Disney+ launched then I’ve watched this fiasco since the turn of the century.

Have

[quote] It sounds so oddly rushed, to say nothing of Lansbury's odd fluting voice.

That’s because her vocal cords weren’t covered in tobacco smoke and soaked in booze.

Angela has weighed in at R34.

Lucy needed so much post production vocal massaging just to sound like that. You might as well have gotten Annette Funicello to play the title role.

I was 14 when I became aware of this movie and managed to get it on VHS from the local store. I was entranced by the quality of the dancing. I fell in love with one of the huntsmen in that big Mame dong scene and since then had a crush on American men.

It’s not the best movie but the musical numbers and hare brained fun more than compensate for any faults. Favorite song “ My best girl”. Definitely on the Xmas watch list.

I made [italic]Pete’s Dragon[/italic] just so this wouldn’t be my cinematic swan song.

Hey I just learned last week Patrick Dennis wrote a book called [italic]The Joyous Season[/italic] if I weren't full-up with holiday reading and other media consumption I'd try it.

Goodreads blurb: Told through the eyes of 10-year old Kerry ("spelled with a K and an E and not with a C and an A"), "The Joyous Season" [sic] is a witty and irreverent look at marriage and family life

And has anyone read the sequel to the book? It’s not that great, honestly. Very few memorable characters other than Beau’s cross-dressing cousin. The original book, by contrast, was a breeze to get through. Mame was even more pronounced in her opposition to anti-Semitism than she was in any of the subsequent adaptations of it.

I’m glad Ball played the role and not Lansbury. The film’s over two hours long and a little of Lansbury’s eye-popping and affected upper class English accent goes a long way.

Her name was "Rosalind," dammit!

This movie was my first exposure to the story of Mame, so it'll always have a place in my heart, but over the years, it can feel like a slog to get through. Especially when compared to the Roz Russell movie which moves pretty well for a movie from the 50's. There's a lot of spirit in it. Lucy's Mame feels like someone filmed the last performance of a retirement home production on matinee day. It's lacking energy and drive, but some scenes do work in spite of everything it has going against it which is somewhat of a miracle in and of itself.

And I think you're right. It does start to pick up steam in the 2nd act portion when Lucy is allowed to play her age and she can loosen up. I feel the same way about the Roz Russell version of Gypsy. If you can get through the impossibly dull first act, the 2nd act is worth it.

The role calls for a character voice not a legitimate one. Lucy’s singing was fine.

r39 Could you give us a timestamp for the big Mame dong scene?

Much obliged.

Oh Merv.....

Meanwhile, I'll watch the real Auntie Mame (1958) on Christmas morning as I do each year.. Not Lucy's ghastly version. Pity I didn't see the musical when Angela was the lead on Broadway, perhaps I would have liked it.

*

[quote]Could you give us a timestamp for the big Mame dong scene?

I think it was Vera's big dong scene.

Hell Yeah!

The film is nowhere near as bad as DL makes out.

R47 1:09

Guy in dead centre behind the line of 4 women. Handsome lad.

Why not actually let a gay man sing this song for a change?

Mitzi should have played Mame!

Recall reading an interview with daughter of choreographer for Mame (Onna White), who said LB had suffered an injury while skiing several weeks before filming the dance scenes. LB being LB was babying the "lame" leg, but Ms. White was having none of it and pushed Ms. Ball again and again to get her to deliver in the dance numbers especially one that follows fox hunt.

This shows in while LG couldn't carry a tune if you packed it in a suitcase, her kicks in dance number are right up there with female dancers half her age. And why shouldn't she have? Those who only know LB from "I Love Lucy", the "Lucy Show" and the rest either forget or are ignorant of fact LB started out as a dancer. She also in her youth was a damn fine looking woman.

Contrary to my comment above, and popular sentiment LB could sing, in fact she was a radio chorus girl besides being a model back in later 1920's early 1930's. By middle 1930' s LB had left NYC and moved to LA, got a contract with RKO films, and the rest as they say is history.

Despite that gag on I Love Lucy where Mrs. Ricardo nearly falls down stairs attempting to do a showgirl entrance (it was that head dress what did her in *LOL*), Lucille Ball starred in film Ziegfeld Follies and could very well handle dance numbers complete with full showgirls head dress.

For those into film noir, get some snacks and beverage of choice and catch LB in 1940's crime drama "The Dark Corner". Her acting is really quite good and she is already honing her comedy skills.

Film also stars DL fav Mr. Clifton Webb!

Sorry, wrong link.

In countless interviews late Bea Arthur makes clear; Lucille Ball was cast in lead of Mame because suits wanted a bankable star in lead for film. Wiser heads pointed out everything from age to fact LB really couldn't sing (well at least not then to Broadway musical standards anyway), but suits stuck to their guns.

Angela Lansbury who got her first Tony with Mame was deemed to "unknown" by audiences (especially the all important middle America) to carry the film version.

That's what she said but it's not true: Ball bought the rights to the film. There was never any doubt that she would be starring in it.

It's better than most of the musicals Hollywood tried at that time: Hair, Fiddler on the Roof, All That Jazz, The Wiz, Funny Lady, Annie, 1976, Bugsy Malone, Bedknobs and Broomsticks, Song of Norway, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Star!, A Little Night Music...

I could keep going on.

At least Cabaret and Funny Girl were respectable attempts at filming. And Ball is far more age appropriate than Babs in Hello, Dolly!

[quote] Angela Lansbury who got her first Tony with Mame was deemed to "unknown" by audiences (especially the all important middle America) to carry the film version.

Yet B&B still outgrossed it even with more than a reel of it missing!

But no one went to it because Angie was in it.

Lucy was genuinely good in [italic]Yours, Mine, and Ours[/italic] which, despite being a cover-up for some horrible real-life behavior, did make money on a small budget when it was released. That's probably why they wanted her for this. They failed to take into account that film not being a musical.

If they really didn't want Angie, then it should have been Doris Day' or Ann-Margret. Doris would have really charmed the husks right off the corn, and Ann would have put the sex appeal back into a role that's usually been played by middle-aged matrons, then you would have seen what Beau saw in her. Florence Henderson and Shirley Jones were busy playing sitcom moms so they couldn't have done it; the latter would have turned it into a mini-[italic]Music Man[/italic] reunion.

Ann-Margret, Jones, and Henderson were all WAY too young for the role.

There's no reason she couldn't have been dubbed.

You truly are willingly delusional if you believe [italic]All That Jazz[/italic] is no better than [italic]Song of fucking Norway[/italic].

[quote]But no one went to it because Angie was in it.

[italic]B&B[/italic] grossed $17,871,174 and won one Oscar out of five nominations

LucyMAME grossed $6,500,000 and got bubkes from the Academy.

So much for "no one going to see it."

LucyMAME did so badly it's not even listed here. They had to spare her feelings.

Even StreisanDOLLY came closer to making a profit and has aged much better as a movie.

The same pathetic troll at R69 is the same lesbophobic one calling lesbians "dykes" in the LGB Alliance thread.

Just for that, I'm re-watching [italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic] twice.

There's no comparison between this piece of garbage and 1958's Auntie Mame. Russell was perfect for the role. Ann-Margret's future husband, Roger Smith, was the final Patrick in Auntie Mame. Forrest Tucker, who portrayed Beauregard Burnside in Auntie Mame, had one of the biggest dicks in Hollywood. The grand prize belonged to Uncle Miltie, but he eventually developed E.D.

[quote]It's better than most of the musicals Hollywood tried at that time: Hair,

Nope

[quote] Fiddler on the Roof

Hell no

[quote] All That Jazz,

Shit no.

[quote]The Wiz

Questionable; both suffer from poor pacing and supporting casts having to prop up miscast female leads

[quote]Funny Lady

Never seen this, but there's a parallel hate thread for it on DL

[quote]Annie

No, and fuck you for even suggesting that that is anywhere near in the same league as this fiasco. The only thing they have in common is Ralph Burns.

[quote]1976

If you mean 1776, then no.

[quote]Bugsy Malone

Never seen this, and Scott Baio being in it doesn't make me want to rush out and see it.

[quote]Bedknobs and Broomsticks

Die in a holocaust of grease fires.

[quote]Song of Norway

Debatable since it has been unavailable for so long

[quote]Chitty Chitty Bang Bang

Shit no. I'm glad Mrs. Edwards passed on it because she would have ruined it just like she ruined…

[quote]Star!

No, but only because Mr. Brady and Mr. Drummond were both in it as bit players. Daniel Massey wasn't bad, but maybe if someone other than Mrs. Edwards had been Gertie in it it would not have bombed.

[quote]A Little Night Music...

Never seen it, but if they still flopped with the original creators' involvement, then it must be pretty bad.

[quote]I could keep going on.

Don't. You can stop projecting this movie's flaws onto movies that don't actually suck and that don't make a mockery of their source material (or in the case of [italic]Bedknobs[/italic], actually improve on it).

[quote]At least Cabaret and Funny Girl were respectable attempts at filming.

Maybe, but [italic]Cabaret[/italic] had to slash and burn the original show to do it.

[quote]And Ball is far more age appropriate than Babs in Hello, Dolly!

Streisand sings the hell out of those songs better than anyone else I've ever heard.

Give it up, you lesbophobic troll. Lucy single-handedly ruined this film with her chain-smoking and her egomania. Streisand's Dolly has aged like fine wine. LucyMAME has aged like bad cheese.

The difference between them is similar to the difference between the movies of [italic]Annie[/italic] and [italic]A Chorus Line[/italic]: the former works as a film, but it's just not the Broadway show. The latter doesn't work as a film and is only a pale shadow of a brilliant original; even the musicale episodes of [italic]Maude[/italic] had better staging!

[italic]Mame[/italic] stays relatively close to the Broadway text and even puts back stuff from earlier adaptations, but does so in a way that just feels so flat and lifeless compared to the movie that it could have been with a qualified female lead.

[quote]Yes, Angie really didn’t compare favourably to Julie Andrews.

Even though Angie can actually act and B&B also outgrossed [italic]Star![/italic], [italic]Darling Lili[/italic], and [italic]The Tamarind Seed[/italic]. Mrs. Edwards has never been able to play anything other than variations of herself. She couldn’t even manage as many hits on TV as Helen Reddy, never mind Angela Lansbury’s mega-hit [italic]Murder She Wrote[/italic]; both their variety shows failed but Helen could at least fall back on hosting [italic]The Midnight Special[/italic]. Julie failed again with an ABC sitcom and a Netflix puppet show that sold trans propaganda to kids using puppets.

Movie musicals would never have been declared dead had Mrs. Edwards not murdered them. She is the devil of Musical Hell just as Bill Cosby is the devil of Movie Hell and Tony Danza is the devil of TV Hell. So you win: I would rather watch LucyMAME with anything than her in it.

You're a little touched, you know,

OP baby…

Oh, here we go again, r57. Lucille wasn't a trained dancer. She was a Goldwyn girl (they posed and looked pretty), not a chorus girl. She did move and wear clothes exceptionally well. And yes, she was a beautiful woman.

People did go to see B&B.

No one went to see it *BECAUSE* Angie was in it.

[quote]People did go to see B&B. No one went to see it *BECAUSE* Angie was in it.

More would have gone if they'd shown the whole movie.

I never knew there was someone who felt so strongly about... eh... Broomsticks and Bedknobs...

I showed that to a lot of my friends and they liked it. I don't dare show them LucyMAME.

And ignoring that one poster...

Lucy's at her best when she's with the Upsons. I can't really imagine Angie being as good in those scenes. Too starchy, too grand. Ball provides the right kind of contrast.

I'll take "Arguments That Only Take Place In Gay Men's Houses" for $500, Alex!

F&F R83. Homophobia.

I find Lansbury's acting style very dated. Kind of reminds me of Greer Garson, who was Russell's first replacement in Auntie Mame of Broadway. And she rarely works on camera. She just plays everything to the hilt. Very theatrical.

Ball brought a nice grit to the role. You can imagine her crying about getting roller skates stuck on and then deciding to skate home in them. A late-night sort of vibe, which helps the film feel not so dated.

There aren’t enough people watching this movie at any given time to form a minyan.

I always thought it odd that JB Fletcher lived in a small Maine town yet spoke in an English accent.

This led to the awkward thing where when she played Cousin Emma she had to differentiate with a wildly OTT English accent.

Nuance has never been her forte.

No love for [italic]Life with Lucy [/italic] if we’re doing revisionism of her biggest flops?

I wish they'd left it That's How Young I Feel. Maybe even redo it as an homage to her number in Ziegfeld Follies. Similar costume the she rips it off and starts flapping.

And speaking of Eydie Gorme:

I don't know who is sadder...the "Lucy deserved an Oscar for Mame!" troll or the "Bedknobs and Broomsticks is the best movie of all time!" troll.

r89- Oh honey, that number needs tap. I gave it all the tap I had!

At least Gary talked her out of her other casting choices:

Vivian Vance -- Vera

Gale Gordon -- Beau

Mary Jane Croft -- Gooch

Desi Jr -- Patrick

Lucie -- Gloria

They needed Teensy and Weensy.

[quote]Mitzi should have played Mame!

So instead of LucyMAME, we'd have MitziMAME!

I find the common criticism of Ball -- that she was too old -- strange. Lansbury and she looked about the same age by the mid seventies. If anything Lucy looked younger. Lansbury's always looked older than her age.

Did Lucy start off as a whore like most actresses?

Lansbury is a fabulous actress, especially in musical comedy. With the right film director, she can reign it in. Had Cuckor stayed on the film, maybe he could have done it.

I don't think Lucy is a total disaster in Mame. I think there are moments where she's very funny and moments where she's very moving. Had she been dubbed, it might have been an all around better experience, but a lot of the fault is in the almost laugh-free script. It's almost like they intentionally decided to take out most of the laughs. If you watch Auntie Mame, there are still tons of laughs and it's aged pretty well. I never found Mame on stage to be incredibly funny either. They should have thrown out the book from the stage musical and gone back to the original Auntie Mame script.

[quote]With the right film director, she can reign it in.

Oh, dear.

I never buy the argument that Lucy was too old but Lansbury wasn't. By 1974 Lansbury didn't really look like a spring chicken who enjoyed pulling old-nighters any more than Lucy.

Maggie Smith or Julie Andrews make more sense than Lansbury if age is the problem.

But MAME is always played by an actress who's too old (Roz was too).

Around that time

The film does a good job of trying to work with what was very dated material even by that time.

It's still very visually appealing -- the Art Deco opening, the party, the fox hunt, Bosom Buddies.

Barbara Streisand bumping and grinding her way through Hello Dolly was a shameful rip off of Mae West, who the lady idolized.

Ms. Streisand indeed yes long had worshiped (if that is the right word) Mae West, and after Hello Dolly was released she finally got to meet her idol at a party. BS was introduced to MW and said how much she liked Ms. West's work and yadda, yadda, yadda; so much so she even copied some of Mae West into her portrayal of Dolly Levi; Miss West shot back: "yes, I know...", and that was end of conversation.

The plot of Hello, Dolly! doesn't really make sense with someone young playing it.

Mame could, theoretically, age from 40 to 60, 50 to 70, maybe 60 to 80.

Whose idea was it to actually show the naked children at the school Mame takes Patrick to? In the book, the proprietors of that school went to prison and the scandal was all over the newspapers.

There was a one-word review at the time. "Mamed" It was a vanity project for the aging Ball and it was terrible.

I do think Hello, Dolly was an even bigger victim of age-inappropriate casting. The entire story loses so much of its poignancy when a 20-something plays Dolly. How long has she been on the sidelines of the human race? A year? Two? Big deal. The world hasn't had time to miss her yet. Dolly should be at least 40. I think Mame can work at any age as long as she's mobile and fun.

While we're on the topic, Rose in Gypsy probably shouldn't be over 45 or 50 considering she has young children for most of the story, yet they always cast post-menopausal women in the role. I've never understood that.

A truely GAY Christmas morning is mimosas, nibblies, and Auntie Mame followed by Female Trouble.

Maimed was the title of the TIME review.

I saw it in the theater when it came out. Once was enough.

While we're on the subject, is there a reason why original Broadway play "Auntie Mame" has not been revived or isn't frequently? Or maybe I shouldn't ask.

I seem to be the only one who remembers reading this, r111, but in the mid-eighties the Wiltern Theater in L.A. was to be renovated and their first production was to be Auntie Mame with Maggie Smith. Obviously that didn't happen and the Wiltern was renovated and became a band and concert house.

Licensing fee of $100/per performance seems reasonable....

Seems Providence Players recently did a revival.

As did off West End theater, so why nothing on Broadway?

One of my favorites. It's really Lillian Gish's signature role.

[quote]Rose in Gypsy probably shouldn't be over 45 or 50 considering she has young children for most of the story, yet they always cast post-menopausal women in the role. I've never understood that.

It's called poetic license!

I think Auntie Mame isn't done because of the set and huge cast of characters which is normal for a musical, but not so much for a stage play. I guess they figure it won't get the tourists in. Then again, they only revived the musical Mame once in the early 80's with Lansbury again and it flopped.

Auntie Mame (1958) is a wonderful, hilarious movie! Some of you don't know your ass from your elbow. Lucy's 1974 flop is unbearable. The boy who portrayed little Patrick is offensive to the eyes -- not his fault. Many of you need to get over your hatred of Julie Andrews. She has class. Victor, Victoria is still an occasional treat. Who did you want as the original Mame? Elaine Stritch?

R77

Goldwyn Girls, that was a new one for me, so looked them up.

Paulette Goddard can see, but Jane Wyman? Am sorry but have never considered her mildly attractive much less of show girl quality in terms of physique.

Could never understand why local New England town hunk Ron Kirby (Rock Hudson) picked-up Cary Scott (Jane Wyman) in All That Heaven Allows anyway.

Grown-up Patrick is played by Ann Margret´s future husband, Roger Smith.

R121 that's in 1958's Auntie Mame. The unfortunate child to whom I was referring is the little boy in Lucy's Mame. The boy who portrayed little Patrick in Auntie Mame was adorable. I believe Roger Smith died with myasthenia gravis. Ann-Margret and Tina Turner are close friends. They met on the set of the movie Tommy.

As wont the case with child actors, Jan Handzilk out grew his cuteness. Gave up acting all together and ended up becoming a top California attorney and federal prosecutor.

Still have to give young Jan points for rocking that school uniform with short pants. The faces he pulls while making martini are priceless.

[quote]That's what she said but it's not true: Ball bought the rights to the film. There was never any doubt that she would be starring in it.

This seems to be a Datalounge myth. Is there anything you know of where this is even mentioned? I can't find anything. I had seen Lansbury in "Mame" as a kid when she toured and played in the round theaters and came out to Long Island. I remember when Lucy was announced, and then she broke her leg skiing and they had to postpone. I thought, what idiot would take a chance like that. George Cukor dropped out and they hired Bea Arthur's husband Gene Saks who had directed "The Odd Couple" & "Barefoot In The Park". Wonder what Cukor would have done with it.

Poster

Bedknobs and Broomsticks sounds like a Treasure Island porn that would be produced an by insatiable bottom.

Lucy claims she feels Lansbury should have done the movie at 19:50.

And right before that she is asked about Rex Reed´s scathing review.

Bedknobs and Broomsticks, the toe tappinest Nazi musical since Springtime For Hitler!

[quote] Barbara Streisand bumping and grinding her way through Hello Dolly was a shameful rip off of Mae West, who the lady idolized.

Streisand could do a better Mae West than Mae West could at that point, and at the same studio no less!

[quote]r4 Is there a way to stream "Mame" without having to pay for it?

I believe it's played nonstop in hell.

Even Satan isn't that evil.

r120 - Lucille as Goldwyn Girl.....

R128 = the Nudge-Nudge-Wink-Wink guy from [italic]Monty Python's Flying Circus[/italic].

Lansbury reprised the role for a 1989 Washington DC revival at which point she was the same age as Lucy when she did the film.

Her performance was panned and it closed quickly.

r120 - Jane had a girl-next-door appeal, I suppose. She had a nice figure and could sing and dance.

Lansbury also came up with the cruel and apocryphal story about Ball arriving on opening night and returning the second night with a notepad she kept writing in the whole evening.

[quote]Then again, they only revived the musical Mame once in the early 80's with Lansbury again and it flopped.

I was a baby at the time but from what I have heard, it was a stripped-down production that made the mistake of running when [italic]La Cage Aux Folles[/italic] had just started its run. I also heard they taped it for cable TV but a rights issue kept it off the air and out of circulation, and the only tapes I've seen of this production look like audience/soundboard bootlegs.

Which one of you bitches started that traumatic thing you've ever seen thread just to respond with Mame?

....

If George Cukor had stayed on, they might not have cast Bea Arthur or Jane Connell.

Jane + Bing + Oscar-winning song...

Madeline Kahn was originally cast as Gooch.

AL and that infamous 1983 Broadway revival of Mame.

Doesn't look that bad, have seen worse.

We think this movie's just sensational.

R129 are you on drugs? Mae West remained attractive well into old age. Streisand was never attractive. Her voice is a gift, but Earl Scheib couldn't knock out those dents. No way in hell she could portray Mae.

Mae told her at their meeting to stop imitating her.

[quote]If George Cukor had stayed on, they might not have cast Bea Arthur or Jane Connell.

[quote]Madeline Kahn was originally cast as Gooch.

Maybe Cukor would have stood up to Lucy and kept Madeline. He was a legendary Oscar winning director, he probably didn't suffer fools lightly.

If it hadn’t been for late night TV and drag queens, she’d have had no frame of reference in the first place.

R148 to whom are you referring? You do know that Mae West was born in 1893? She predated television by many, many years.

He did actually, R147, which is why he worked so long long and most of his leading ladies liked him.

And Lucy didn’t fire Kahn.

Well, Lansbury claims Ball saw her play the role on Broadway. If true, that must’ve informed her performance.

I'm sure Lucy would have seen MAME. But I'm pretty sure she was looking at the role requirements as opposed to Lansbury' performance as they have/had very different skill sets.

Ball says on Donahue that Lansbury didn't want to do Mame the movie, which is a total lie and Lansbury still hasn't recovered from not doing it. But somehow, Lucy felt that saying it somehow lightened the load on the idea that she stole the role from Lansbury. Interesting that she's very nice about Rex Reed, although she said she didn't read his review. The only thing I can find about the review is that he said the soft focus on Lucy's closeups looked like they seared chicken fat on the lens, which is actually pretty funny. I don't think she read the rest of the reviews at the time of this taping, because they were so savage and Lucy likely wouldn't have been able to put on her game face.

[quote]Lansbury still hasn't recovered from not doing it.

Given that she's nearly a hundred and it was nearly fifty years that says a lot about her.

Like maybe she should see a therapist.

[quote]on the idea that she stole the role from Lansbury.

What?

I think Jane Connell's casting was more problematic than Lucy. She even reprised the role in the Lansbury revival, which prompted a critic to quip that for this Agnes to have a baby would have been worthy of Agnes of God.

Kahn would have made a great Vera a few years later but not Mame. She didn't have the warmth for the role.

Christine Baranski played Mame in 2006. I think she'd have been better as Vera though.

Madeline did get to take on another Jerry Herman diva, though. I wonder if she told "What's Up Doc" co-star Barbra, "Th...th...that's all folks!"

R154 that's ridiculous. Since what Ball did was very wrong, all Lansbury is doing is telling the truth. She's not necessarily holding a grudge. I posted elsewhere it was all over L.A. that Lucille was a bitch, and I love "I Love Lucy". Doesn't change the fact that she was a bitch. The truth is the truth no matter how much time passes. You MAY be one of the types of persons who can't separate emotion from fact, and expect people to forgive you for serious wrongs just because time passes.

And now Barbra could do a great remake of Sextette.

R160 I could see her at Paramount, but please don't let her Fox all night.

Pauline Kael's memorable review of "Mame":

"Too terrible to be boring; you can get fixated staring at it and wondering what exactly Lucille Ball thinks she's doing. When that sound comes out--it's somewhere between a bark, a croak, and a quaver--does she think she's singing? When she throws up her arms, in their red giant-bat-wing sleeves, and cries out "Listen, everybody!" does she really think she's a fun person? Onna White choreographs like mad, with bodies hurtling over and around the near-stationary star (Lucille Ball was well into her 60s at the time), and the director, Gene Saks, tries to wring a little humor out of the frayed old skits that serve as the story line."

I don't know if it's good -- were any of those splashy musicals as the roadshow was dying? -- but I enjoy it.

I wish that other version of It's Today was still on Youtube.

The Temple Israel Players are proud to present.....

Bruce Davidson, probably best known as the title character in "Willard," plays the older Patrick in "Mame." He would go on to get an Oscar nomination for his role as a gay man in "Longtime Companion." Kirby Furlong, who played the younger Patrick, was mainly a TV actor and stopped acting in 1980.

" Kirby Furlong, who played the younger Patrick, was mainly a TV actor and stopped acting in 1980."

Thank God

I agree Lansbury should let it go since she had her audition for Mame with Hal Prince's "Something for Everyone" and flunked. She is essentially Mame in that movie but you can see that she wasn't made for big screen musicals. Carol Channing got the same audition for HD in Thoroughly Modern Millie and the audiences felt like they were being assaulted. Lansbury had too odd a presence for the lead in a big movie musical and it was hard to believe her as a romantic lead.

Kael said that Mame must be played by a young, smashing actress that gays find a turn-on. Mame is rich, permissive and is swathed in designer gowns and goes around spouting bitchy one liners.

Angela Lansbury has no one to blame but herself for not making the movie MAME. If she had not permitted her children to run wild with Charles Manson, then she would not have had to grab her kids and hotfoot it out of the U.S. to hide out in Ireland just as MAME was being made.

Agreed, R168. Channing and Lansbury, despite their success onstage, are just too much to carry a motion picture.

Same was true of The Merm.

Lucy could have been a very good Dolly Gallagher Levi when "Hello, Dolly!" was filmed. Dolly and Lucy Ricardo are both much the same kind of scheming comic character. Lucy could have easily held everyone's attention when entering the Harmonia Gardens.

R169 Angie was perfectly available in 1973 for filming. And she put her kids first in 1969 and made a good choice.

I still want her to get one last great role in a drame, a mini-series and one final brilliant role on Broadway. I know it's unlikely.

Angie reacting to r168.....

R172 - very unlikely. Saw Angela in “Blythe Spirit” in LA five years ago and she was bad - just too old to perform at this point - and I wanted to like her because she is who she is.

No, I think was living in Ireland at that point. That’s where that photo of her and children upthread was taken.

What Lucy was talking about Rex Reed's review not being published was there was a NY Newspaper strike the time of "Mame" opening at Radio City Music Hall.

There was a previous thread on Mame that got to 600 and it was one of DL’s greatest ever.

For the World Premiere, The Cinerama Dome dressed the dome as an Easter Bonnet.

The American Film Institute ranked Mame as the #1 horror movie of all time.

That's subjective, r179, but it's certainly in the top five.

[quote] Lucy could have been a very good Dolly Gallagher Levi when "Hello, Dolly!" was filmed.

No, she could not have. SHE CANNOT SING.

Give up, Blanche.

In 1974, Angela Lansbury had received a lot of critical attention for playing superb supporting roles in her youth and in middle age in film, but she had been reduced to playing the lead in Disney's "Bedknobs and Broomstiocks," which would have made her seem unlikely to be able to helm a big star turn Hollywood musical like "Mame." She had not had her big hit yet with "Murder She Wrote," which surprised everyone by being a big hit--she had not been considered viable as a box office attraction except on Broadway by that point.

Lucy had been the biggest TV star in the 50s and 60s, so it was no wonder Hollywood thought she could do it. But she was too old, and she had ruined what little voice she had by smoking and drinking.

The film is so strange anyway because the place where most of it happens--the narrow mansion that's supposed to be Mame's Beekman place home--came across as so cold and inhospitable. It's like people are dancing in a mausoleum.

When i was a teenager, i was listening to "Mame," and my mother, who loved musicals but didn't know that one, listened to some of it with me and said, "That's just not a very good musical." She's right. There aren't many good songs in it at all.

Dubbing exists, R181.

R184 Lucy sounds like she was dubbed by Lionel Stander.

r185 wins the thread.

....

....

R181, neither could Channing and look where that got her.

Carol Channing cheats at Chinese checkers.

R178, apropos the title of this thread, the movie was slated to be released at Christmas but Warner Brothers was so horrified by it that they delayed the movie until Easter. That also put a damper on Lucy's desire for an Oscar nomination, not that it would have happened unless they were able to release it in 1959.

Channing could sing, r189. You make not like the sound she makes, but she hits the notes.

Breezing....

Always current.....

One of the gayest things that ever happened to me was a fight about The Rosalind Russell Mame vs the Lucille Ball one. It was the late 90s, and I was visiting friends in Baltimore. We ended up at some after-hours gay club in some dank basement. I walked down the stairs and was about to open the door when some weird but sorta hot dude yanked the door open, looked at me quizzically and said, Which movie version of Mame do you prefer, Roz Russell or Lucy? I stared at him for a moment and said, Roz. He yelled "WRONG ANSWER" millimeters from my face, yanked my arm towards the bar, gave me a shot and proceeded to explain to me why the Lucille Ball version was superior. It was an exceedingly odd evening.

She hit those notes the same way Paula Poundstone hits kids, R192.

Angie was dubbed in Till the Clouds Roll By and The Harvey Girls.

With the latter being so obvious to point of being painful.

R192, the way she hit those notes, it's a wonder they didn't hit her back.

This is why I do not consume tobacco products.

[quote]Saw Angela in “Blythe Spirit” in LA five years ago

Oh, dear.

[quote]Bruce Davidson, probably best known as the title character in "Willard," plays the older Patrick in "Mame."

His name is DAVISON.

Miss Davison has stated her boundaries...

And he used to be married to Young Julia.

The movie sucked---the pacing, Lucy's inability to sing, the untalented kid, the soft focus photography. Mesmerizingly bad.

R194: It's interesting that "mod Lucy" looks kind of fat.

It's too bad Connie Bennett couldn't do it.

Eve Arden would have been better than Constance Bennett.

[quote]r204 And he used to be married to Young Julia.

She was good with snakes.

But the rich kids don't like her, r209....

Between this movie and [italic]Longtime Companion[/italic], Bruce Davison is someone I was surprised to find out was not actually gay.

Judy Garland as Mame is one of the great "what ifs" in show business history, she was perfect for the role. Unfortunately by the time the musical happened on Broadway, there was no way she could've done eight shows a week. Too bad she wasn't well enough, that would've been legendary.

Actually, the great what if with Garland is Rose.

That one, too r213. When you think of what Judy could've done with both of those roles, it's terrible she never had a chance to do them.

It’s awful and LB perhaps gives one of the worst musical performances in film history. Some great actors and comedians can speak/sing and deliver the song- Not Lucy in Mame.

One thought DL comments were bad, but compared to Broadway World postings they seem almost like overall praise. *LOL*

On another note, does history recall how Jerry Herman felt about both of his biggest shows were film disasters (basically) thanks to among other things bad casting for lead roles?

Someone really didn't approve of Lucy.

They shoulda gone with Ginge!

[quote]On another note, does history recall how Jerry Herman felt about both of his biggest shows were film disasters (basically) thanks to among other things bad casting for lead roles?

Define disaster for "Hello Dolly". It played Roadshow Engagements for six months and played all over the world for over a year in theaters. It was nominated for 7 Academy Awards including Best Picture and won 3. No where near "The Sound Of Music" of course but disaster, not quite. It was released at the beginning of the sexual revolution with pictures like "Midnight Cowboy" and "I Am Curious Yellow" packing theaters.

Why are Christmas classics so bad? Mame's got to be the worst.

Film rights to musical Mame were not purchased by Lucille Ball, but Warner Bros. and ABC who paid $3 million USD.

Depending upon who you wish to believe Lucille Ball did pony up $5 million USD towards production costs. In return for her "investment" LB was given right of first refusal for lead role (Mame). This generous (ahem) donation also give Ms. Ball strong say so in how things were going to go with production.

Above played out in many ways; such as Madeline Kahn reporting for filming on first day, LG taking one look at her figure and deciding it was all wrong for the frump Agnes Gooch. MK was fired which was fine with her since she was also under contract to do Blazing Saddles (which she preferred IIRC), but wouldn't be paid for Mame if she quit. LB or whoever firing her from Mame meant she got her money anyway, and was free to do BS.

Everyone know Lucille Ball's singing was horrible. Lisa Kirk was brought in to do some dubbing, but when LB got wind of things those tape never saw light of day.

Jerry Herman was so upset about how Mame turned out, and piled on the disaster that was Hello Dolly that no other of his musicals can be made into films without his direct involvement.

By many accounts Lucille Ball did go to see Mame on Broadway, and on at least one occasion went backstage to congratulate Angela Lansbury. Subsequently AL noticed LB in the wings one night taking down notes. She then knew her chances of being cast in film version of Mame were now nil, it was something that was a bitter pill to swallow, and yes AL hasn't quite forgiven nor forgot.

Mr. Jerry Herman at first begged, pleaded and perhaps even cried to get suits to use AL instead of LB; they would not be moved. He resorted to intensely working with Lucille Ball on the musical numbers. But her talents by then were so non existent that she couldn't hold a note for one sentence before losing breath. Simple things like "open a new window" were pieced together from multiple takes. Audio engineers did best they could with technology available, but no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig.....

Allegedly Lucille Ball's desire to be involved (and or even backing) Mame was her feelings about what sort of films were being released in early 1970's USA. Last Tango in Paris, Cabaret, The Exorcist, etc.... Her feelings were where "this country was headed" if you forgive use of that phrase, and she wanted to be a part of offering wholesome family entertainment.

I have always heard the movie HELLO DOLLY (or HELLO, DOLLY!!!!!!) lost a lot of money. They had to pay millions just to release it while the stage show was still running, for instance.

Oh to have been in the background of filming Hello Dolly!

Walter Matthau and Barbra Streisand were at each other. Gene Kelly and Barbra Streisand had a "strained" relationship. Barbara Streisand apparently didn't want to do the film, (but Carol Channing did), and required much stroking and encouragement...

Hello Dolly did respectable numbers at box office, but nothing near what was needed to recover costs and earn nice fat profits. Largely one big reason for this was by early 1970's or even late 1960's demographics for movie audiences were skewing towards under thirty crowd. Young people just weren't into musicals , and with so much counter culture activity going on not to mention Vietnam, Hello Dolly just seemed relevant as Dolly Levi's whalebone corsets.

More to another point *lavish* musicals like Hello Dolly just cost far too much in terms of production than anything they could hope to get in returns. BS's beaded gown alone cost almost ten grand.

Mame is supposed to be a disreputable libertine, enough to leave Patrick embarrasses when she has to meet the Upsons. Ball conveyed that nicely, Russell and Lansbury not so much.

They should have had Ken Russell direct this movie:

Picture it, Lucille in a skintight jumpsuit, rolling around in beans.

Heinz could have sponsored it.

What is never explained is how Patrick who is raised by Mame to be open minded, free spirited, and unprejudiced grows up to be a stick in the mud, conservative, snob totally forgetting everything his Aunt taught him. So he really is just a device whereby Mame can be a self righteous do gooder because the fun musical comedy part is used up in the first half.

Gene Saks directed the original musical on stage. His two film comedies Barefoot in the Park and The Odd Couple were big hits.

Lansbury was not dubbed in Till the Clouds Roll By. It is her own voice, she dances well and her performance is delightful.

In an early episode of That Girl Don and Marie try to get tickets to the recently opened smash hit Mame with Angela but tickets are impossible to get. So they end up at the still running Funny Girl with Mimi Hines which I assume at that point was barely hanging on so it's what you went to when nothing you wanted to see was available.

R227 love you!

Let's face it, Lucy did not charm the husk off of the corn. The husk remained. There was tons of husk, wherever you looked.

Mame dumped Patrick at boarding school for years while she travelled the world, that’s how he ended up that way.

Lucy can’t be blamed for casting Kirby Furlong.

This movie is why Charles Manson and everybody associated with him should’ve gone to the chair. If it wasn’t for him, Angie never would I had to take her daughter to Ireland and she could have done the movie.

Would have

Yeah, right. Angie was never doing the movie. No studio was going to allow someone of her stature to helm a production like Mame.

If you don’t like Ball there were other big stars at the time who could’ve done it. I mentioned Julie Andrews and Maggie Smith upthread, but no one was ever going to cast Lansbury.

ABC also put up the money for [italic]Song of Norway[/italic]. Need I say more?

Angela Lansbury should have been given more chances to prove herself, especially early in her career. She was only 20 and had achieved 2 Oscar nominations already.

I thought she would have been terrific in The Heiress (1949) and as Eve Carrington opposite Davis (1950). In fact, I started a whole thread not so long ago on roles Lansbury would have done well in. The studio killed her viability to be a Star.

This pointless thread about this pointless movie is even more pointless if you queens don't get your facts right.

Auntie Mame and Mr. Babcock agreed to enroll Patrick in the Bixby School in NYC, but Mame instead enrolled young Patrick in Ralph Devine's Laboratory of Life, a forward thinking establishment, where he learned to play Fish Family (right after Yogurt Time.) Relying on the written instructions of Patrick's deceased father, that Patrick should receive a conservative education, Trustee Dwight Babcock removes Patrick from the Laboratory of Life and enrolls him in boarding school at St. Boniface.

Gloria was an Upper Richman Girls School girl.

Oh Dear is right R201 the play was worse than my spelling

Gown(s), r224. There were two......hee-hee.

r220, I don't remember it playing roadshow for six months. I saw it at an air force base theater for 50 cents....might have been a quarter.

What does it matter what you remember, R241? You are not the gold standard against which all must be measured.

I saw "Hello, Dolly!" twice during its Roadshow release. A gorge ous old theater. A grand drape that rose when the film began and descended at the end of each act. Reserved seats. Programs. Orange drink.

The whole fucking Roadshow shebang.

r241 You overpaid.

[quote]This movie is why Charles Manson and everybody associated with him should’ve gone to the chair.

Or a more fitting punishment would have been to sentence them to watch "Mame" uninterrupted for the rest of their lives. But I think the Constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.

Promotional interview...

Angie claims never to have seen the movie from start to finish. That must be part of why she has lived so long.

StreisanDOLLY! would have made money had it cost half what it did and had David Merrick, who engineered a lot of the backlash against the movie for not being allowed to do it himself, not extracted another million on it from Fox to get the rights to release it before the Broadway show closed.

R246, I don't believe her.

R246, she claims she never saw ANY of it, at least she did on the Larry King show where he said he thought Barbra Streisand played the lead.

He must have been confusing the two.

Dolly played roadshow half a year at the Rivoli in NY. A fairly short run when it should have played more than a year like other roadshow hits. SOM usually played a year and a half to 2 in many cities on first run at the same theater. But I do know that by the beginning of the summer of '69 Dolly was playing at those same roadshow theaters on continuous performances. I saw it first at one. It was still in Todd AO and 6 track stereo.

For some reason The 35 mm wide release is not an exact duplication of the 70mm version. It was not cut to make it shorter. However If you watch both versions when Streisand is running towards the camera singing Before the Parade Passes By I believe it might be the wide release version(not 100%sure) as she builds the momentum and runs faster her hat starts coming off and she reaches up with her hand to keep it in place and holds it there until the end of the shot. It is very effective in terms of the urgency she is feeling. The Todd AO version has no hat malfunction and I believe she is using both hands to hold her dress slightly up so she can run for the length of the scene. Somebody made the decision to switch the takes after it's initial 70mm release and I wonder who it was.

And yes it has gotten much better with time(Jerry Herman has said he has come to like it) though Crawford is still horrible and painful to watch. What were Kelly, Edens and Lehman thinking? Streisand still thinks it is lousy and wonders what is wrong with people who tell her they like it very much. Even if you think she's too young it is still a killer of a performance and it is remarkable that she commandeers this galleon of a musical production and Funny Girl hadn't even opened yet. Nobody knew how the moviegoing audience would respond to her. Well I guess except her. She was determined to flatten people to the back wall of the theater.

Something like Mame can kind of work with an actress who's a bit too old or too young (and the timespan gives leeway) but Streisand is way off and that throws the film off kilter too.

[quote] Let's face it, Lucy did not charm the husk off of the corn. The husk remained. There was tons of husk, wherever you looked.

I ate the corn right from under the husks.

Lucy has lots of nice moments in the movie but it doesn't add up to a performance. Her best, something Lansbury couldn't have accomplished, happens at the end of the title song. Preston extends an arm towards Mame and Lucy looks at him with total love and runs to him. Very nice. Another nice moment happens after a terrible one. Ito and Gooch tell her they're staying with her and she breaks down and says "you're so good to me", which is so ridiculously fake. Then they tell her they've paid off the bills and Lucy clutches the bills and says "I'll pay you back someday". Lucy, the businesswoman, understood that and gave it a genuine feeling of gratitude.

It is universally acknowledged that there was nobody else but Streisand in '68 who could pull off a huge insanely expensive movie musical. She was worth betting the rent on. Garland would have been the only one if she hadn't become a disaster. Who were you going to put in it? Channing, Ball, Day, Taylor, Rogers, Lamour, Grable, Bailey?

[quote]I don't know who is sadder...the "Lucy deserved an Oscar for Mame!" troll or the "Bedknobs and Broomsticks is the best movie of all time!" troll.

Neither: it's you for even suggesting there is any similarity between stating an irrefutable fact such as [italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic] being the best movie of all-time and deluding yourself into believing Lucy's work here was either anywhere near her best work or worthy of so much as the People's Choice Award. B&B is the reason the second half of Angela's career is a thing in the first place. It is unlikely she would have had [italic]Murder She Wrote[/italic] without it and certainly not [italic]Beauty and the Beast[/italic], the first Disney Best Picture Oscar nominee that actually deserved it.

[quote]Her best, something Lansbury couldn't have accomplished, happens at the end of the title song.

Except Lansbury did accomplish it 8 nights a week on Broadway.

Notice how nobody is clamoring for a movie version of [italic]Wildcat[/italic].

R256, I never knew there were eight nights a week.

But you knew there were eight DAYS -- right?

We did.

Those brown Nehru jackets almost look like Ghostbusters uniforms from that angle.

Why is that photo of Lucy in OP's pic so blurry?

Every time I see that scene of Lansbury doing that odd dance with the men's shoes I cringe. It seems to be shown a lot in interviews with her. And then the ghostly armor taking a poke at Nazi soldiers is like cut footage from Hogan's Heroes on LSD.

There are though two quite wonderful animated sequences with the animals' soccer game being spectacular(as I remember it.) And Bobbing Along sounds like an old tuneful British music hall number which the Sherman Bros did so well.

[quote] It is universally acknowledged that there was nobody else but Streisand in '68 who could pull off a huge insanely expensive movie musical.

That is obviously not true, as it pertains to Babs' necessity being 'universally acknowledged.' But it does point out the bigger problem. Hollywood chose to produce a "....huge insanely expensive movie musical." The 14th Street set was too big. The Harmonia Gardens was too big. Sure, Todd-AO wants it wants, but comedy does, too. There are 2,500 people in the 14th Street Parade scene. At every turn, the producers over-shot the runway with the film version of "Hello, Dolly!" The production overpowers the story and eats big chunks of it before the story concludes.

Then there is the problem of Michael Kidd's shitty choreography that is, again, too big, too athletic, and mostly without charm. Everything Gower Champion did on Broadway is better than anything Michael Kidd did for the movie. That goes double for the "Hello, Dolly!" number itself.

They envisioned a production that was too big and then hired Ernest Lehman to produce. His only other film as a producer was "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf." They agreed not to release the film until the Broadway production closed, or the show broke My Fair Lady's record for the longest run. That left them with a finished film they could not release. The film was so very expensive because the producers made it so. Unnecessarily. Foolishly, too. There was nothing about the property itself that demanded it.

[quote] I don't know who is sadder...the "Lucy deserved an Oscar for Mame!" troll or the "Bedknobs and Broomsticks is the best movie of all time!" troll.

Obviously the latter, because the latter is Matt Anscher, aka the anti-smoking troll, who is the craziest troll on DL.

Catherine O'Hara had the last word on Lucy's singing in "Mame."

R229 - Lucy’s singing DID summon the Children out of the Corn.

R265 is not describing any movie I’ve ever seen.

I would rather watch Streisand in Dolly then have to suffer through anything Mrs. Edwards is in.

What in the world are you talking about? Then you tell me who should have done the role?

And how exactly do you do a 14th street parade without thousands of extras? Have you ever seen pictures of NY City parades at the beginning of the century? They were beyond massive. And the gilded age produced spectacular buildings everywhere there was money in a city. Thank god for John Box. Also Sharraff's costumes are awesome.

And the hat shop scene is a comedy tour de force beautifully acted and directed. It helps that Crawford spends it in an armoire. Also the turkey dinner is hilarious.

I'll give you though Kidd's choreography. Yes it is pretty bad but it has one wonderful moment. In Dancing when Peaker and Lockin dance and he turns and does a back flip with the rest of the corps in the back watching. I also like the Egyptian frieze bit in the Hello Dolly number. Yeah I know not much in a musical with a lot of dancing. The Waiter's Gallop is excruciating. They should have cut it. But they needed to fill out a roadshow time slot. Like the Jewish wedding in Millie. And amazingly neither were cut when they went to wide release. Continuous performances! Popular Prices! Exactly as seen on Broadway at $5.00!

Lucy Angela and Ginger doing a mash-up Mame.

Sorry I'm getting my Johns mixed up. It was John Cuir who designed Dolly. John Box did such films as Lawrence of Arabia and Oliver!. Anyway they were both great.

Get over your hatred of StreisanDOLLY! Nobody, but nobody, sang those songs better than her. That movie is everything LucyMAME is not: fast paced, funny, and romantic. And unlike in her later films, Barbra manages not to overpower the supporting cast. It has aged beautifully while the movie that stole the Best Picture Oscar it deserved looks like a relic of urban decline.

Hey Hollywood, would you have still given [italic]Midnight Cowboy [/italic] the Oscar if you had known Jon Voight would go on to support Trump?

I don't have a problem with Streisand. She has commanding presence in every scene and she delivers a performance that pushes the whole thing forward. The film is far too big and yet she fills it up. This she does despite being miscast. She sings it sumptuously. As Streisand does a creditable job, but is still miscast, and according to R271, there was no one else at the time who could play the role, then perhaps it was unwise to spend $20 mil blowing the thing up to the size of Texas. Perhaps it was unwise to make the film at all. Just wait 20 years for Streisand to age into the part, though she would never be believable as a woman whose last name was Gallagher.

The musical play "Hello, Dolly!" has not one revolutionary aspect. It is as traditiomal as can be. Ergo, it probably is best served by more traditional casting, i.e., a woman old enough to be seasoned, wise, a widow, and very lonely. None of those women working successfully in the business at that time could be slotted into the film that Barbra made. But a smaller and more charming film... yes. All of them have been named above. Again and again.

And if you want to bitch that none of them would sell tickets, my reply is that if the film were smaller, a hell of a lot fewer tickets would need to be sold.

R232, it wasn't just Manson. Angie's kids Dierdre and Anthony were both hardcore heroin addicts. She took them to Ireland to get off the shit. I wonder if she would lock them in their rooms there.

And it still might lose money. Even the film that got made still outgrossed both the other Fox musicals of the late 1960s. LucyMAME had the original Broadway director and choreographer and cost half as much and still lost money.

You say the production was too much yet it was that that received Oscars from Hollywood and not any of the actual performers. All its Oscars were technical ones, and when you look at a production like that today and consider that not a single solitary was computer was involved in making it, it truly is a sight to behold. No Broadway stage could capture that. You have to be able to give them something that a stage cannot. That’s part of the reason [italic]The Sound of Music[/italic] made so much money: no theatrical experience could actually re-create actually doing it in Austria in the places where the real story took place.

Jerry Herman was willing to give Hollywood a second chance after StreisanDOLLY! This preemptively cost us a film version of [italic]La Cage [/italic] before it ever existed, or any of his other shows.

Dolly in the bluray is a sight to behold. I have no problem with its size. And Streisand fills those sets with her presence. The Sharraff hats help.

[quote] ... it truly is a sight to behold.

Yes. But it does not pair well with comedy. "Hello, Dolly!" is a frothy comedy with some moments of great heart. It is very light. The film's production is not light. Not in any way. The scale is leviathan.

Things are much better scaled in the scenes filmed in Garrison, NY. The $25,000 dollar gold beaded dress is just silly. If Dolly could afford that dress, she could attract a better husband than Horace Vandergelder. Just as if Dolly is 27 years old, she can attract a better husband than Horace Vandergelder.

If the production keeps fudging the details, they end up with something less than optimal. There is much to like about this movie, but it clearly seems to be sub-optimal in some big ways.

There's somethings right with "Mame", production, the sets, costumes, supporting cast. The "Mame" number and Preston's Loving You". Agree with R254, Lucy has some nice moments but not enough and it's not just Lucy's singing, it's the pacing that is deadly. "It's Today!" has been slowed down it's almost a ballad, it needs to be fast, fun and something that would freak out Gooch.

Did someone at Warner Records have a sense of humor or dread by making the cover of a big splashy musical soundtrack cover be black?

The Broadway show was not exactly what I would call minimalism. Except the last Channing revival sounded cheap as fuck.

The big problem with LUCY/MAME is the godawful script by Paul Zindel. How on earth does "The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds" qualify a writer for a screen adaptation of MAME? Lucy didn't get the Comden and Green script that Roz got to work with. NO ONE could make the film script play well.

Lucy was an experienced performer and an experienced producer. She should have spotted the problem with the script and demanded that it be entirely re-written.

[quote] "Hello, Dolly!" is a frothy comedy with some moments of great heart. It is very light.

If we’d have left you in charge of its production, it would have looked like a home movie.

At least this doesn’t force you to overlook the horrific behavior of the Catholic Church in order to enjoy and like a certain other Fox musical from that decade I could name. Homophobia is a reason StreisanDOLLY! gets more of the blame than it deserves for the decline and fall of Darryl F. Zanuck. Danny Lockin was gay and so is Jerry Herman. Homophobia is also the same reason Roddy McDowall got cut of a bunch of the movies he got cut out of, and also the reason his own movie that he directed was taken away from him in the editing room.

[quote] The big problem with LUCY/MAME is the godawful script by Paul Zindel. How on earth does "The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds" qualify a writer for a screen adaptation of MAME? Lucy didn't get the Comden and Green script that Roz got to work with. NO ONE could make the film script play well. Lucy was an experienced performer and an experienced producer. She should have spotted the problem with the script and demanded that it be entirely re-written.

Did they even ask Ernest Lehman? Maybe he could’ve given them some thing she could actually work with, at least in the book scenes.

Of course, Lucy screwed over writers before. They dumbed down her TV character just to avoid paying Jess Oppenheimer royalties.

If you'd left me in charge, it would look more like this.

That movie was not very old at the time and they wanted to do something to differentiate it from that.

Seeing the movie in 70 mm and the revival on Broadway made me realize that rock and roll was and is a mistake. You made your choice, America, and you made the wrong choice. We are still paying for that mistake 50 years after the fact.

[quote] That movie was not very old at the time and they wanted to do something to differentiate it from that.

Yeah. The addition of a musical score. That would do it. The story is still the same, though.

The movie you would end up creating would be lifeless, though, and derivative. Get over your blind spots and admit that the critics and the public were wrong to reject this movie for any reason whatsoever.

Mame must've looked antiquated in 1974. Think of all the things that were going on in pop culture at the time and then this turkey was released.

Hollywood offered you a gourmet meal, and you threw it in their faces and demanded hotdogs instead.

If you don’t like StreisanDOLLY, then you deserve LucyMAME.

Well I like classic rock an roll a lot though I hated what it did to American culture. Still if we were going to get more movie musicals like Mame it's just as well.

I also got to see Paint Your Wagon on an 80ft screen in a roadshow print. A lot of fun with that score sounding spectacular in 6 track stereo. They Call the Wind Maria sounds magnificent like it never will on stage. And may God forgive me but I like Wanderin Star. I had seen the chopped up version on TV and hated it.

R290 / R292, that's enough time for you here with the grown-ups. Time for you to run along back to All That Chat.

R291: Yet the movies that were supposedly hip and happening then look even more dated now. Kodak cutting corners on its film stock just made things worse.

R294, you need to stop projecting your immaturity onto those who can see it and call you out on it. The public made the wrong call 50 years ago and we are paying the price for it today. I want an America where movie studios bet millions and millions on the gayest movies ever made!

At its heart, its a simple story that should encompass charm and whimsy.

But it doesn’t, it just encompasses nagging and heteronormativity.

Lehman was right to cut the jailhouse scene. It adds nothing.

Lehman was right to cut the jailhouse scene. It adds nothing.

Well I hate to admit it but the American New Wave, a rejection of all that Dolly represented, which Bonnie and Clyde ushered in with a subsequent push from Easy Rider that lasted until Spielberg and Lucas took over seems to be the most popular era in American film history. If it weren't for the nudity and profanity it was like going to the cinema to see washed out made for TV movies. Personally I hated it but what can you do?

This thread reminds me of why I hate Star Wars, Star Trek, and all that other heterofanboy garbage that steals studio resources that should be going to making big splashy movie musicals that give gay men employment.

This thread reminds me of why I hate Star Wars, Star Trek, and all that other heterofanboy garbage that steals studio resources that should be going to making big splashy movie musicals that give gay men employment.

Perhaps. But what has this to do with LUCY/MAME?

Because that’s the stuff that was hailed as being the savior of the studios not less than five years later, R304.

Meeaa like Lucy singing. She sing like Yoda.

The only good movies Blake Edwards made after 1969 are the ones his beard-wife was not in.

Well considering Downey's rep heterofanboy garbage is still giving gay men employment. And you don't think straight men come up with those costumes do you?

R238 for the win.

Mame found out early on via terms of her late brother's will that she got Patrick, but his money (and heavy influence over education) rested with trustees of Knickerbocker Bank.

Upon their first meeting Mr. Babcock admits he was prejudiced against Mame due to her reputation, but upon their meeting the latter charmed the pants off former so he was willing to give her slightly more of a free hand. Mame abused that trust by putting Patrick into that "free love" school which caused trustee to act; Patrick was removed to an institution that provided a "conservative education" (as per terms of his late father's will), and Mr. Babcock threatened to try and prevent Mame from getting him back on school holidays.

Apparently Patrick fell under the influence of his boarding school mates (likely helped along by Mr. Babcock) which would be natural since ten months of year he would have been away at school. IIRC the Upsons were close to or at least knew Mr. Babcock well which was how Patrick and Gloria came to meet.

Until he came of age Patrick's money came not from Mame, but his trustee including pocket funds. Thus as in real life Patrick's trustee was an active part of his young life; that is just how things go when one's money is managed by executors, trustees, and attorneys.

Most of the “New Hollywood” films of this era that the same critics who derided almost every musical of the era celebrated were just pale imitations of the French New Wave and Italian Neo-Realism.

Definitely. They in no way come anywhere near the beauty of the European films of the era. Still the American films are lionized.

R301

It took a few decades to finally hit home, but end of studio system in 1948 forced changes that began showing up in movie theaters by late 1960's early 1970's. This was helped along by rapid expansion of television which was in direct competition for movie going audiences.

Young boomer generation was coming of age and they weren't interested in the sort of "wholesome family entertainment", of things such as grand musicals.

Of top grossing films for 1970's only musical to make cut was "Grease".

The book also makes it much clearer than any subsequent adaptation what horrible people the Burnsides are except for Beau.

By the time of LucyMAME, that aspect had been watered down so significantly that [italic]Song of the South[/italic] is actually much less retrograde and at least has the excuse of having been made before the end of segregation.

[quote] Young boomer generation was coming of age and they weren't interested in the sort of "wholesome family entertainment", of things such as grand musicals.

Yet another reason why the backlash against baby boomers is justified.

[quote] Young boomer generation was coming of age and they weren't interested in the sort of "wholesome family entertainment", of things such as grand musicals.

Yet another reason why the backlash against baby boomers is justified.

MAD Magazine compared depicting Bonnie and Clyde and a sympathetic late to doing the same to Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun. They were right then and they are right now. Especially when you see what kind of person Faye Dunaway is in real life.

Sympathetically

I believe that's why Crowther's panned it. It ruined his career getting him kicked out of the Times because he wasn't 'with it.' But he remembered Bonnie and Clyde very well and was appalled by the film. Of course Kael being a total loon claimed it was a breath of fresh cinematic air. Not that she wasn't a terrific readable writer. Still her taste left a lot to be desired.

If anything, TV from this decade has held up much better than movies.

All of these abusive straight guy melodramas that replaced musicals were just bombastic kitsch then and now.

Angie & Carol

Song of the South is a wonderful film and needs no excuses and no trigger warnings before it. It is sheer insanity that Disney has it hidden away as if it were a film condoning sex with a minor. And it denies us the beautiful performance of James Baskett one of the few major performances by an African American in a Hollywood film of the era. How much more idiotic can it get? I mean honestly do African Americans want the film banned? Will peoples rights be violated if the film is released? GWTW is far worse. People have a problem with Ruth Warrick berating Uncle Remus very stupidly not getting the point that she's clearly shown to be the intolerant one. It's the whole point of the scene.

Thank you, Nikki Haley.

And thank YOU Joseph McCarthy.

I love Roz.

Kael was unreadable and I've never understood how her purple prose influenced more mainstream reviewers like Siskel and Ebert, both of whom could write reasonably well.

Kael was the most influential reviewer of her time. Even if you hated what she was saying and wouldn't go to any movie she liked you wanted to know her opinions. Or at least a lot of people did. Her attitude was funny in that unless you agreed with her 100% you didn't truly love movies. She was the only person in the world who 'got' movies. Watching her in interviews on youtube she comes across surprisingly as a very pleasant reasonable person.

Molly Haskell wrote an article at the time saying Lucy was not the problem, Mame Dennis was.

The script was, indeed, the main issue with Mame. If it were better and the direction had been more engaging, Ball could have survived the inherent miscasting and at least turn in something more human, funny, and charming. As someone else pointed out, it's amazing that Ball agreed to green light that shooting script at all until it gave her more to work with.

Hello, Dolly still retains most of the good stuff from the musical with a few less favorable diversions. It might feel overstuffed and bloated, but more works with it than doesn't work. Streisand is also miscast which makes some elements of her performance a bit lackluster, but she does nail some of the comedy and, of course, sings it beautifully.

When the book was published, in 1954, Mame could stand in counterpoint to its much more conservative era. That dynamic still worked at the end of 1958 when the film debuted.

The musical MAME opened on Broadway in 1966. That was absolutely the last moment the character Mame could surprise anyone or be viewed as unconventional or rebellious. The Summer of Love happened in 1967 By the time MAME closed on Broadway in 1970, history had overtaken it and it had become pointless.

Under even the best circumstances, a movie version, starring anybody, was entirely unnecessary in 1974, and had been for years. A character who had been boldly rebellious was now just quaint.

Maybe there was an actress, younger and more dangerous, who could have made something of it, but ossified Republican Lucy only compounded the problem. A property past its prime was led by an actress past her prime.

Paul Zindel also ended up writing the 1985 TV-miniseries version of [italic]Alice in Wonderland[/italic]. It takes fewer liberties with Lewis Carroll than Disney's animated version but does it in a way that feels so bland and literal by comparison. I'm surprised there wasn't more of an uproar over casting an American girl as Alice.

When did I eat jam?

Ann Margret was about 32 when the movie was shot and the concept of a child bringing this young, gorgeous bohemian stability is interesting. They could have even had Robert Smith as Beauregard. But when they stayed with the older Auntie Mame, it naturally becomes an old musical. Roz Russell said Cher should have done it because she could bring something new to the work. Although I disagree with Cher, I do think that by casting much younger, they wouldn't fall into the pit of trying to recreate the original.

The original performers pitched were reportedly Angie, Bette Davis as Vera and Carol Burnett as Gooch. Davis would have brought the movie star luster and Burnett the TV audience so having Lansbury in the lead was no longer about her singlehandedly carrying a major motion picture.

Carol Burnett wouldn't have been able to hit the high note at the end of "Gooch's Song" She's a better singer by Lucy than a wide margin but not a soprano like Jane Connell.

Jerry Herman musicals just haven't aged well. He wrote all his best songs for "Hello, Dolly!" and even that is super-twee.

Cher was supposed to do a TV remake. They even had an IMDb listing for it, but it fell through because they never came up with a script Jerry Herman approved of. LucyMAME seemed to make him bitter towards the idea of anyone adapting his works for other media even though he did just that to his source material.

Yet he didn't mind contributing a song to a movie about Barney the fucking dinosaur.

R334, they could have just axed Gooch's Song. Burnett may be more trained but I can't stand that yodel she puts into her songs. She sounds like she's always doing her Tarzan yell. And as those horrible performances on the Sylvia Fine specials showed, she's not terribly adept at doing musicals. There's a flatness, a lack of subtext in her numbers. I Cain't Say No and Ladies Who Lunch were as bad as can be.

Yet she still kept her voice longer than that common guttersnipe she did three TV specials with.

Come to think of it, a young Mame could really be poignant. She could be more of a Holly Golightly type character who has to mature to take care of this kid that's just been thrust into her life. It would be interesting to see both of the characters grow up - one in a literal way and the other in a figurative way.

If Mame is too old, there's a slightly sad quality to her in the same way you'd pity a 65 year old groupie. It just seems like they're trying too hard to cling on to their youth and prove that they're different than normal older people.

Maybe the age issue if one of the reasons that Tilda Swinton Mame, I assume, fell through. Having a woman that old behaving like a 22 year old party girl might just seem a bit more depressing than whimsical these days. It's hard to make that fun without a tinge of melancholy.

WE even did this song (and seemed obsessed as a singing group with "Mame," by the way).

[quote]If Mame is too old, there's a slightly sad quality to her in the same way you'd pity a 65 year old groupie. It just seems like they're trying too hard to cling on to their youth and prove that they're different than normal older people.

You just reminded me: Madonna now is about the age Lucy was then.

Roz did her own singing for The Girl Rush in 55, but by 62 she was being dubbed in Gypsy.

Her original vocals are on YouTube though, tell me are they really worse than Lucy's?

Madonna seems old because she's been around forever.

No one would blush if Christine Ebersole (66) or Patti Lupone (70) did the role on Broadway right now.

The same pathetic troll defending this film also posted this:

[quote]Caitlyn Jenner looks beautiful!

[quote]Better than the average cislesbian anyway.

You really are a cunt and a bigot in addition to being the philistine of philistines. Now, there are good things in this film, but they don't add up to a satisfying whole, but for you to disingenuously act like Rosalind Russell and Angela Lansbury were inferior to her in any way just shows how impossible it is for you to be taken seriously. To even entertain the notion that someone who had just dropped two of the biggest bombs of the Roadshow era, bombs big enough to negate her previous hits, would be better makes you beyond the pale. You're what's wrong with movie musicals. You will grasp at any straw to defend the indefensible only to tear down things that actually have artistic merit in order to do it.

LucyMAME vindicated RozGYPSY as far as I'm concerned, black and white shoes or no black and white shoes.

Roz's singing is even worse than Lucy's if that's possible. It is unlistenable.

That's why they dubbed her and why they should have dubbed Lucy.

Oh, I agree. Rose Marie was a contender for dubbing Roz and she should have dubbed Lucy. They both had the same booze soaked voice but Rose Marie could still sing.

Lucy didn't mind using the voice of Carole Cook in place of her own any time her character on [italic]Here's Lucy[/italic] needed to sing. It is especially obvious in the first episode, "Mod Mod Lucy," where she does this.

R330 sums it up well.

[quote] Come to think of it, a young Mame could really be poignant. She could be more of a Holly Golightly type character who has to mature to take care of this kid that's just been thrust into her life. It would be interesting to see both of the characters grow up - one in a literal way and the other in a figurative way....If Mame is too old, there's a slightly sad quality to her in the same way you'd pity a 65 year old groupie. It just seems like they're trying too hard to cling on to their youth and prove that they're different than normal older people.

I agree Mame should be young, she's free, uninhibited and full of life and now she has to put her fun life on hold for Patrick. An older Mame is tired, and maybe ready to settle down anyway.

Uh, that's like the total opposite of what the character and story are supposed to be about.

The most consequential part of the plot, where actual acting is required, is when Mame goes to Upson Downs. Roz wasn't as good as Lucy there. Her Mame, like Lansbury's would've been, is too snobby for those scenes to work.

Maybe Angie should've been allowed to play Mrs Upson in the 1974 film. I can see her better in that role than I can as Mame.

Of course, Roz and Ginger Rogers were both quite conservative offscreen. I'm going to bet they actually agreed with the Upsons.

Ball's 'miscasting' works on level where you can totally feel how Patrick would be embarrassed by her. Real-life and fiction coinciding nicely there.

Given that she'd been dubbed in several of her films including The Long, Long Trailer and on her TV shows it can't have been Lucy who wanted to sing the score herself.

She was the first to admit she wasn't a singer.

I assume that in 1974 dubbing was seen as outdated and artificial. Ten years prior and she might've been. Twenty years later and she'd just have been Autotuned.

Trivia:

The older female dresser helping Vera (Bea Arthur) is Betty White's mother (not credited) IIRC.

Sorry, hit that post button too soon; disregard post 357

[quote]The older female dresser helping Vera (Bea Arthur) is Betty White's mother (not credited) IIRC.

She actually got the biggest laugh in the movie.

Bosom Buddies is terrific and gives you a sense of what the rest of the movie might have been but most of the costumes are about the most hideous I've ever seen in a musical. What in the world is that horrific thing Arthur is wearing on her head? You wouldn't even see that at Ascot. There were a lot of terrific costume designers still around back then so it is bewildering.

And that serial killer Santa Mask! It should have given the film an R rating. It is more obscene than that ugly little boy's bare ass.

According to published interviews Lucille Ball flatly denies Ms. Kirk or anyone else dubbed her voice or even made attempts for Mame.

Knowing LB if such tapes did exist she sought them out by any means necessary, then had them promptly confiscated/destroyed.

And because we haven't had a Bewitched thread in a long time, here is episode starring Lisa Kirk

I recall Lucy saying in an interview that they tried to dub her, but no singer would take the job, not wanting anyone to think they sounded like Lucille Ball.

It seemed at the time a failed attempt at humor and a weird way to promote a musical.

At least Audrey looked like Eliza. Lucy looked like Mame 2 decades before. But even then lacked the effortless sophisticated air Mame needed. Even though Cher would have been better casting and brought more people to the box office she didn't have it either.

Would Cher have brought more people to the box office? I’m skeptical.

In 1973, when MAME was in production, Cher was Cher but she wasn't yet CHER! At that time, casting her in this role would have been incomprehensible. She had a few screen credits at that time, but nothing that would support casting her in this film as Mame. All that wouldn't start until "Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean" in 1982.

Before the film was made Roz stated publicly Cher should do the role. Where do you get 'would have been incomprehensible from?' In fact somebody already said it in an earlier post. You clearly weren't around then. And you haven't read the thread.

I wonder if that was a joke on her part, R366.

If she wanted to joke she would have said Lucy should play the role.

[quote] They could have even had Robert Smith as Beauregard.

Who?

Rosalind Russell died in 1976, a full six years before "Come Back to the Five and Dime...." Show me an article published before her death in which she is quoted advocating for Cher in the role of Mame.

Cher created a stir by being successful in a supporting role in a small failed play in 1982. Jimmy Dean only ran for 52 performances. If 10 years before that, Rosalind Russell pegged Cher as the best choice to play Mame, she possessed a vision that she lacked 10 years earlier when she accepted the role of Rose in Gypsy.

[quote]Hey Hollywood, would you have still given Midnight Cowboy the Oscar if you had known Jon Voight would go on to support Trump?

Wouldn't a better question be, "would you have given Voight the Oscar for "Coming Home?"

[quote]Sorry I'm getting my Johns mixed up.

Before I marry prez-dunt, used to happen to me all the time.

[quote] According to published interviews Lucille Ball flatly denies Ms. Kirk or anyone else dubbed her voice or even made attempts for Mame.

She told Phil Donahue flat out that they couldn't find a good enough match for her voice. Why not Betty Wand? She dubbed Rita Moreno in [italic]West Side Story[/italic] and that didn't cost her an Oscar.

The material was fundamentally out of date and the blue rinse crowd was not going to the movies. Thoroughly Modern Millie, which covered some similar ground, was a hit in 1967, but I doubt it would have done well in 1974. But material aside, Lucy was horrible and she had an experienced director who directed the play and had done successful adaptations to film before (and after). She was, by this point, unable to get beyond familiar material and her singing voice was awful---heck it was awful on ILL in the 50s. A different director couldn't save this---knowing Lucy she would have wanted some pliant tv type from her show.

Quite possibly the worst movie I’ve ever seen—even worse than Bedknobs and Broomsticks!

Lucy's voice lost at least an octave from the beginning of [italic]I Love Lucy[/italic] to the end of [italic]The Lucy-Desi Comedy Hour[/italic]. Doing [italic]Wildcat[/italic] 8 times a week without any training did more damage. And then there's good ol' Mr. Booze and his lady love, Madame Tobacco doing a one-two punch on the old vocal chords.

Under those circumstances, that Dionne Warwick has managed to outlive her by this point is amazing.

[quote] Quite possibly the worst movie I’ve ever seen—even worse than Bedknobs and Broomsticks!

All other movies ever made are worse than [italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic]. Roll over, [italic]Citizen Kane[/italic], and tell [italic]Vertigo[/italic] the news!

I remember reading it at the time. And since some other poster said the exact same thing it seems odd that two people imagined it.

[quote] A different director couldn't save this---knowing Lucy she would have wanted some pliant tv type from her show.

She was that way with writers, too, and that's a major reason why her color TV work hasn't aged as well as her B&W TV work, and how a hack like Paul Zindel ended up writing something that needed both a stronger hand and a lighter touch.

[quote]r293 I also got to see Paint Your Wagon on an 80ft screen in a roadshow print.

DL icon Jean Seberg! In a musical!

Her song is creepy

[italic]"Four cabin walls would be just right for me / I need a threshhold I can cross, where I can sit and gather moss forever more..."

The rock musicals have largely aged worse than LucyMAME. They were dated from their inception to their execution. At least this had good source material to work with, and the themes of racism and anti-semitism were and are still very much timely. The material wasn't the problem: the clumsy execution of it was.

The older I get, the more I realize Frank Sinatra was right about rock when he called it "phony and false" and called its performers "cretinous goons." John Lennon proved it by beating his first wife and inflicting Yoko Ono on the world. She makes Lucy sound like Maria Callas. Hell, she makes Charlie Callas sound like Maria Callas. Disco was a welcome rebellion against rock, but it barely made a blip on the movie musical radar outside of that Village People thing and a couple others; I do not consider [italic]Saturday Night Fever[/italic] a musical.

Andre Previn had a great story about who he chose to dub Seberg. He remembered a singer from years ago who he lost track of and seemed to know nothing further about. On a chance he called directory assistance to see if she was in the phone book. When he gave the name to the operator she gave him a concerned response which surprised him: 'Why?' It was her.

Only a homophobe could ever have anything bad to say about a movie where Roddy McDowall not only plays a man of the cloth, but gets attacked by cloth as well.

[quote]but she had been reduced to playing the lead in Disney's "Bedknobs and Broomstiocks," which would have made her seem unlikely to be able to helm a big star turn Hollywood musical like "Mame."

Yet an obviously cut version of the former, which they cut again on reissue for no good reason other than perhaps to stiff the Shermans on royalties even more than they already have, made more money than the full-length release of the latter, which clocks in at 131 minutes but still feels languid compared to either the 143-minute [italic]Auntie Mame[/italic] or to any version of the Disney show.

Old fashioned musical "Mame" opened March 7 1974. Exactly a year later rock opera "Tommy" opens at NY's Ziegfeld Theater then plays for over a year in the theaters. Ann-Margret wins the Golden Globe for Best Actress in a Motion Picture - Comedy or Musical and is nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actress. If winner Louise Fletcher had been out in the category she should have been Best Supporting, Ann-Margret would have likely won.

I’ll never understand why people keep talking about this as a Christmas movie. It has one song set at Chirstmastime and a sequence that lasts no more than fifteen minutes around it. It was released in the summer (as was Miracle on 34th Street, for that matter) and has never been broadcast as a special Christmas showing. Just because countless high school show choirs trot out “We Need a Little Christmas” for every December concert does not make Mame a Christmas movie!

Lucy saw it as a CHRISTIAN movie, not a Christmas one.

[quote]Lucy saw it as a CHRISTIAN movie, not a Christmas one.

Is that why she chose to star in the movie of a Broadway musical by a gay Jew built around the life of a New York bohemian who fights against racism and antisemitism in her own special way? The "Open a New Window" number even shows Patrick reading from the Torah!

This is what the devil's attendants in hell wear.

[quote]I’ll never understand why people keep talking about this as a Christmas movie. It has one song set at Chirstmastime and a sequence that lasts no more than fifteen minutes around it. It was released in the summer

Actually it was the Easter attraction at Radio City Music Hall and The Cinerama Dome in LA.

[quote]I’ll never understand why people keep talking about this as a Christmas movie.

Especially when it's more of a Thanksgiving turkey.

Thea Van Runkle made an entire career on Bonnie and Clyde. By the time Mame came along, she had done several turkeys. Pauline Kael called her designs for Mame "abominations". When she did Liza's "The Act" (called "Shine it On" at the time), someone called her costumes "sadistic".

That red jumpsuit makes her arms look flabby.

Could Gower Champion have directed the movie Mame?

Ralph the Crossing Guard from [italic]Animaniacs[/italic] could have directed it better than Gene Saks did.

Not to be confused with Ralph the Doorman from [italic]The Jeffersons[/italic], Ned Wertimer, who is actually in this film in a small role.

The clothes in NEW YORK, NEW YORK are good.

And her house was pretty.

[italic]Troop Beverly Hills[/italic] was arguably the best use of her talents since that's a comedy, and since so much of her earlier post-[italic]Bonnie and Clyde[/italic] work is unintentionally hilarious to begin with.

Gotta love DL where might actually have a Thea Van Runkle troll!

Us in this thread:

[quote]I’ll never understand why people keep talking about this as a Christmas movie.

For the same reason that "My Favorite Things" from "The Sound of Music" has inexplicably become a Christmas song.

[quote]For the same reason that "My Favorite Things" from "The Sound of Music" has inexplicably become a Christmas song.

Probably because of the lyrics about "sleigh bells" and "silver white winters". None of that has anything to do with Christmas if you live in California, Florida, or Australia.

[quote]For the same reason that "My Favorite Things" from "The Sound of Music" has inexplicably become a Christmas song.

And not to mention "Hard Candy Christmas" about some out of work whores.

[quote] And not to mention "Hard Candy Christmas" about some out of work whores.

That at least mentions Christmas and got a movie version with a female lead who could sing.

The funniest thing about the Broomsticks and Bedknobs Troll is the repeated insistence the film’s poor reception is because it’s insufficiently long.

Yes, if it hadn’t been cut it would be regarded as the greatest film of all time.

Ebersole already did the role and wasn't very good. She just wasn't the right type. LuPone is more of a Vera.

Christine Baranski would have made a fabulous Vera.

That’s true of Baranski. Much better as the wisecracking sidekick than the leading lady.

I actually wouldn’t mind Lansbury playing Mrs Upson. That was what she was beat at too: the snotty marm character role.

Baranski was weirdly underpowered as Mame like Ebersole. These are both great performers who can sing, act, dance, and land a laugh with the best of them, but they didn't work for some reason. I'd put them in the same "dependable actress" category as Lansbury. They're always at least interesting even when their material fails them. The difference is that Lansbury could make the switch from supporting actor to star a little easier for some reason.

That's because M-G-M usually cast her as someone's older sister.

Because Lansbury isn’t afraid of holding back and ignoring what the role calls for to give showier performances that grab attention.

You need more than just a good Mame. You need everyone else to be at least as good as she is. That's why the movie counts so heavily on its supporting cast to make up for Lucy's inadequacies in the title role.

Where was that exhibit, r400?

This is what you get when you cast a Vera as Mame.....

This is what you get when you cast a real dancer....

And Angie is what you get when you cast a character actress.

Angie danced her ass off in 1966.

How....groovy.

The worst thing about the musical (stage or movie version) is the combining of Norah and Gooch into one character. It makes no sense at all.

[quote]r404 And not to mention "Hard Candy Christmas" about some out of work whores.

Runkle did the costumes for that, too!

[quote]r409 I actually wouldn’t mind Lansbury playing Mrs Upson. That was what she was best at, too: the snotty marm character role.

Did they offer her that part? It would have been kind.

Regarding the costume design, and how bad Bea Arthur looked in particular -- I work in film preservation and recently dealt with several hours of footage shot in the mid to late 1920's - essentially home movies of some very well off people -- and I was struck by how unflattering the clothes worn by most of the women were. In the footage the elderly women still mostly wear more edwardian style stuff, and look old / old fashioned; but the women in their 40's / 50's who chose current styles really do look odd, and these are people who I'm sure were buying very expensive, well made clothes in the most current styles.

The straight lines, dropped waists and cloche hats really only look good on an idealized flapper type - young, thin and with a flat chest; on more matronly women they look awful, but these women wanted to be in style, thought they looked great, and I'm sure Vera Charles would have done the same. Bea looking terrible is actually correct for the period.

"Bea Arthur is not a clothes horse...."

It actually does, r420. She gets to be in both acts and gets both character's songs. It would seem odd for Norah to just disappear after the first act (in the musical).

[quote] r423 ...matronly women they look awful, but these women wanted to be in style, thought they looked great, and I'm sure Vera Charles would have done the same. Bea looking terrible is actually correct for the period.

[quote]r424 "Bea Arthur is not a clothes horse...."

For big occassions on MAUD, she could sometimes be coaxed into a caftan-adjacent outfit.

r425 It might make sense for that reason, but anyone who's seen the original play/movie should agree that the characters are completely different (ages, professions, attitudes) so it doesn't make sense from that standpoint.

You have to edit the straight material down to make way for the songs. Having Gooch serve Norah's purpose doesn't make me miss Norah. But the book of the musical didn't come up with changes that were more clever and in some cases less. Don't we lose Gloria's ping-pong story for one about her washing her hair with beer so that later Mame can call her Miss Schlitz head?

WTH is this movie???

I like this series - -