Was Edith Bunker retarded?

No. She was my favorite character. Although she was apolitical, she did much more to espouse the values that Mike held so dear than he did.

She had an excellent understanding of human nature. The scene between Mike and Edith in the kitchen at the end of this episode illustrates that.

I always got the feeling she had been abused at some point and that's why she acted so oddly.

She and Louise Jefferson bumped pussies. Irene Lorenzo would sometimes join in.

I think the actress who played Irene wound up in Laverne and Shirley.

Remember when Edith narrowly avoided getting raped by the burglar by burning him with the cake in the oven?

She was definitely not neurotypical. I don't know where she landed on the autistic- retarded spectrum, though.

Just bad actors.

No, she wasn't, OP. You might be, but she sure wasn't.

Edith wasn't always book savvy, and she was naive in the extreme - she believed the best in others. But she was often emotionally very smart in ways that other people were not.

If she was autistic, you nattering fuckwit, she'd have no idea about any of those emotional or social cues.

She was limited but not retarded.

Not very bright

I think in the pilot or the first few episodes Jean Stapleton did a less exaggerated voice and she didn't come across as stupid as she did later

I HATED this show with all the yelling and stupidty!

R12, I didn’t like it, either. I don’t like those shows where the families/people are mean to each other. The Honeymooners, Everybody Loves Raymond, this one.

I also didn’t enjoy shows where the women were frumpy and looked like grandmas. Their lives looked so colorless and boring.

[R11]

You're correct about the voice.

The Edith character didn't talk like an imbecile the first season. I don't know why the amped up her voice except to sound like a "dingbat" for Archie's "dingbat" insults.

OP, "retarded" is an outdated and offensive term. Please don't use it. Thanks.

God I hated that show. And Stapleton was a wonderful actress who behaved like a moron on it. Norman Lear ruined TV forever.

Hated All in the Family.

I was born in 1967 and I just realized I hated this fucking show too. I couldn't stand how mean they were to Edith, who clearly seemed challenged to me as a child. Why did Archie ever marry her if he thought she was such a fucking dingbbat? I must have watched it with my parents.

When I was a little girl I didn't know all the things a little girl should know. Now I'm gonna be an old woman, and I don't know all the things an old woman should know.

I didn't like the show during its first run because I couldn't stand Edith's shrill voice and outward stupidity.

Now, I can't stand the show because it turns out she was the only humane character in that family. Archie was the obvious bigot, but Mike and Gloria did a lot of freeloading. Improve the world? Heh, they didn't even try to improve Archie and Edith's situation with a few bucks towards room and board. Nope. The two moral compasses of the family were just a pair of sanctimonious hypocrites.

it took about ten years after the start of the show I was finally told the line in the opening song "Gee, out old LaSalle ran great"! Pre-internet , couldn't just look everything up, many things remained a mystery back then!

^^^^ "Gee, our old LaSalle ran great"

Nope. She was a typical NY housewife. Difficult to distinguish from the retarded.

R14 The same thing happened to Homer Simpson - over time he got progressively more stupid, even batshit crazy, as if the writers got lazy and started to rely on the idiocy of his character instead of developing new plots and clever dialogue.

She would probably have tested low on the IQ scale, but as much because of her lack of sophistication and education as native intelligence. She did understand people.

As to why Archie married her, good question! Either because she was the one woman he ever met who accepted him as he was and who didn't call him on his bullshit, or because she got pregnant with Gloria. It has to be one of those. And of course she married him because nobody else asked, and she didn't want to wait tables or slave in a factory until she got old, life doesn't offer many good options to girls like the young Edith Bunker. No matter how big an asshole Archie was, she'd have gone through life believing that life as Mrs. Bunker was as good as it would get for her.

R25 That seems like an accurate assessment and makes me hurt all the more for poor Edith.

Edith was on the Spectrum.

Archie and Edith were the products of the Depression and WWII. Both probably had 10th grade educations and portrayed as such.

Their relationship was fairly accurately portrayed in how Archie dominated and Edith submitted. The personality traits were wildly exaggerated.

Women's Lib was new. Gloria represented what Edith never had the chance to become. Maude was NOT typical of women her age.

Jean Stapleton was such a talented actress. I bet she had a lot of fun doing Edith, a character so different from her classy self. She was great at using her face to tell the story, to read her mind and emotions. There was one other actress whose face could tell the whole story, Sada Thompson as Kate Lawrence, in Family.

Edith was naïve and unworldly and not sophisticated, but she was NEVER RETARDED. She had limited options, Archie promised to love and provide for her. No different from what your Grandmother or Great Grandmother faced. Of course here on The DL, half the ancestors will have graduated from Vassar and be the first female Attorney from their state to argue in front of the Supreme Court. Just because someone doesn't match your smarts does not mean they are retarded.

R3, only George ate my pussy...And HE WAS GAY.

That is impolite.

Edith was "touched".

Not retarded; truly good people can appear stupid

The beginning she was a wise ass. Then I think she was a compliment to Mike and Gloria. Once they left she wasn't as ditzy anymore. They had to smarten her up a little because they couldn't afford to have her as dumb as when Mike and Gloria were on.

I actually like the episodes when they weren't all against Archie and he was in the same side, like Edith's rape ep.

They remind me of my blue-color, working-class grandparents. My grandmother was very similar to Edith, but not quite as warm. My grandfather was a little like Archie, but was a mean drunk. Neither graduated high school (neither did their parents), and they got married because they had to (pregnant). They weren't very religious, but still, divorce was not an option.

I also worked with a woman (college-educated, white-collar worker) who reminded me a lot of Edith. Something was off, but I couldn't figure out what it was. She didn't seem to pick up on all social cues (didn't get jokes that seemed obvious), but she definitely expressed a wide range of emotions clearly.

All in the Family was based on the British series Till Death Us Do Part. The Edith counterpart in that show was a smart aleck, wise ass. In the pilot, Edith is very much like her. As the first season wore on, she became more and more the lovable dingbat.

R1 I agree, that is one of the great scenes of the show. All in the Family turned out to be all about Archie and Mike. Mike was able to allow himself to understand Archie better as the show went on. Archie could never understand Mike, but came to love him like a son, even though he was never able to vocalize it.

R1 the three main scenes of the series, I believe, are the one you posted. The scene below where Mike comes to understand Archie's past, and the scene where Mike and Gloria say goodbye at the end of season 8.

When All in the Family was good, it was GOOD.

WW2 ....the big one

Beverly: Mrs. Bunker, I'm a female impersonator.

Edith: Oh, so you're a female who impersonates a lady!

Beverly: You don't understand—I'm a [italic]transvestite.[/italic]

Edith: That's funny, you ain't got no accent or nothin'!

r38 = literal violence

No, she wasn't retarded. She was Irish.

[quote]That seems like an accurate assessment and makes me hurt all the more for poor Edith.

Honey, Edith is a sitcom character.

r41 must be new to the DL.

One of my great-aunts was similar but when my great-uncle was being an ass all she had to do was say "that's enough Preston" in her soft voice and it shut him down. I didn't appreciate what she was able to do until I was an adult.

One thing I always knew for sure is despite everything Edith and Archie loved each other very much. If Archie could have died for Edith he would have and she for him.

R15 = Frau with a retarded... oops, I mean "developmentally disabled" child.

Edith was a carnivorous little cunt.

Edith was uneducated and from a poor background where even the men didn't get to go to college. But beyond that, she had a "dizzy" personality type. The dumb character is a stock character in sitcoms, they're easy to get laughs with. But Edith was lovable and had emotional intelligence as others have noted.

Not my intention to derail this thread, but Edith looks like Lena Dunham’s older sister in OP’s photo.

Why is it bad to call someone "retarded"?

Add another to the list of people who hated this show. Archie was such a racist fat douchebag and all they did was scream at each other. Edith was a sweetheart but just once I wanted to see her hit Archie in the face with a frying pan. I liked The Jeffersons much more.

Edith was passive most of the time, but occasionally Archie really crossed the line and got Edith mad enough to put him in the dog house.

Edith was the moral center of the show. She was pure.

Jeez R49! Can’t you just say “differently-abled?”

R44, I beg to differ, respectfully. He was a shit to her. Always yelling at her, always calling her names and rolling his eyes and pantomiming suicide when she told a story that took attention away from him. Treating her like a dumb child.

And she had Stockholm Syndrome because she was so wholly dependent on him.

First of all, I loved the series. It was often hard to watch: I didn't expect a sit-com to make me cry, but it did. My own upbringing was very working class, with a shabby home and old furniture. I still live in the same house, although I've managed to spiffy it up a bit. Some of the mean comments here about Edith have really left me sort of cheesed off. She was one of the most loved characters, ever, on TV. This scene doesn't even show Edith, but Archie's reaction to her death. Just as with my own parents, for all the insults and arguments, there was never a second's thought that they didn't love each other. Real life sometimes works that way. We don't all live in Hallmark movies.

The cousin Liz episode, one of the first shows depicting a committed gay relationship.

I loved when Edith tried to find new friends and replied to an ad placed by a couple who wanted to swap partners. (Guest starring Rue McClanahan!) Louise read the ad and tried to explain to Edith that her upcoming guests were "a couple of swingers".

When they were filming her attempted rape scene, she reported that when the actor (David Duke) who was supposed to be attacking made his first attempt, the studio audience reacted, with very frightening low grumbles, and he was actually in fear: the audience was ready to beat him away. People loved Edith Bunker, with few reservations. At the time of that episode, the Washington Post even published an article about it, since it was ground-breaking. I still haven't been able to watch that scene in a number of years, because I get too emotional.

Edith Bunker is the model for all Republican women today.Married to Archie Bunkers,sitting back watching the times change.Her character was lovable,her innocence admirable. How she hooked Archie....one never will know.But at the end of the day,in that pretend household. ....Edith was the brains.....Archie was just a loud mouth asshole lucky to marry a saintified wife.He was lucky to get her.

The clip in R56 has some beautiful and extremely writing. Whether or not you agree politically with the message, you can't deny that the dialog and delivery is funny.

^extremely funny writing

'Edith was a sweetheart but just once I wanted to see her hit Archie in the face with a frying pan"

Well of course! But the family dynamic set up for the series was that Edith never hit him with a frying pan, in fact, nobody in the family had ever really stood up to him until Mike had married Gloria and moved in. That was what fueled the dynamic of the series and gave all the arguments intensity, the fact that Archie was totally used to being the unquestioned master of his house and saying whatever the hell he wanted to say.

If he'd been married to a woman who'd hit him in the face with a frying pan when he was obnoxious he'd have learned to moderate what he said, and then there would have been no series. No, Archie Bunker was like a great spoiled child in that house, used to doing what he wanted and fully expecting to be forgiven every time. Every single time Mike disagreed with him he was shocked.

Mike ended up in a commune he was so traumatized,

This thread is why I love the DL.

I know that r62, that’s why I hated the show. I can’t stand people like Archie Bunker and it bugs me that someone like Edith had to put up with him. I know it was common for the time, but it makes the show unbearable nowadays.

R50

Edith came from a working class background. She was not well-educated. While she certainly was retarded or developmentally challenged, she was probably no more than average intelligence. But, more pointedly, she grew up in an era when even well-educated women deferred to their husbands completely. She subscribed to the role that society dictated - that the man was smarter and always right.

Also, at that time, radio and then tv would have been her primary sources of both information and entertainment. She would have had limited exposure to the world. People like Beverly would have been wholly outside her experience - remember that Beverly's depiction on tv at that time was itself groundbreaking, in the truest sense of the word.

^^^ that's "while she certainly was NOT retarded or developmentally challenged."

R49, Why is it wrong to call someone a "faggot"? It's meant to be degrading.

Her character certainly wasn't well-educated. We don't know where she got her 'emotional intelligence', but she showed it, over and over again. DL can be very difficult for me to read, sometimes, because some of you guys report awful mothers. I really do feel terribly for my fellow DLers who didn't have good mothers. Mine was great, and the idea that you've suffered really does make me feel terribly for you. Edith Bunker may not be smart, but she's very loving. I think she loves us all. If you need a kind bosom on which to rest your weary head, Edith Bunker is always there for you.

David Duke was so fucking sexy.

She didn't seem to get some social cues. For example, when robbers invade the bunker home, they invite Edith to sing "You're someone if somebody loves you". She's excited for the chance, even though they were mocking her with the invitation. Fortunately, her song gave the robbers a change of heart.

The REALLLY sad thing is... a woman like Edith would have considered herself very lucky to have a husband like Archie Bunker!

She wasn't pretty or sophisticated and was from a working-class background, so she was probably terrified of ending up an old maid with a shitty job or ending up with someone who'd leave her with ten kids and two black eyes. Archie was a good provider with a steady union job and a good union pension coming up, he loved his daughter, he didn't cheat on her or drink his paycheck away, and even they both came from a background where wife-beating was okay within limits, he didn't hit her. To someone who'd lived through the Great Depression, her circumstances would have seemed enviable!

Of course he said a lot of mean things... but she probably thought he was right to call her stupid and ill-informed.

A little off topic with Edith, but Archie wasn't always wrong. For example, when Mike got some extra money, Archie flipped out when he donated it to a political campaign and not toward the household. Archie was 100% right, but always painted as wrong. I love the show but that was one was of the things that pissed me off. Mike was very sanctimonious to the point of him being worse than Archie many times.

I know a woman much like Edith - one of the kindest people you could ever hope to meet, and also incredibly ditzy at times. Sometimes she seems aware that she’s being a dingbat, so I wonder if it started as a shtick when she was younger and eventually the shtick stuck. She’s also quite intelligent, when you get past the goofy. Point being, no, Edith wasn’t retarded, far from it.

I suspect Mike realized he was transgender in middle age.

Carrol O'Connor and Norman Lear had a major falling out in the 90s because Carrol wanted to bring the show back. I think it could have worked. Joey gets into a college in New York and moves in with his grandfather, Archie, to save on housing costs. Joey reveals that he's gay. Archie has some issues at first, but then he comes around. Mike comes to visit (guest star appearance), and Joey tells Mike that he's gay. Liberal Mike flips out and, in a reversal of roles, Archie admonishes Mike for not being more accepting and understanding. Archie continues to support his grandson even though he sometimes becomes annoyed by his behavior. One episode could have involved Archie joining PFLAG and marching in a gay rights parade, where he gets lost from the PFLAGers and falls in marching with another group. A photog takes his picture and puts in the newspaper (they still had newspapers in the 90s) where Archie's buddies see it.

R73 I think there were times when the show let Archie be right. Not often. Mike's sanctimoniousness was for sure portrayed as a negative trait, at times.

R21 When I was a kid I always thought that line was a reference to Archie's cross-dressing friend, Beverly LaSalle.

R76 Norman Lear was right not to allow it. Archie Bunker's Place was terrible. I never heard the plans you describe. I always heard that O'Connor wanted Archie to be driving a cab, and the show would involve various people he met doing that.

Sally Struthers wanted Jean Stapleton to play an Edith look-a-like on her short-lived show Gloria, for one episode. Of course, Gloria takes a shine to the lady, even though she's nothing like Edith. Another bad idea.

Yet another idea came from CBS. They wanted to bring Edith back as a ghost, in a Topper type scenario.

She wasn't full retard. Maybe halfsie.

R80, right. Because you never go full retard.

Remember 704 Hauser? A black family moved into the Bunker's old house.

She did seem somewhat mentally challenged (she married Archie Bunker, didn't she?). But she had a good heart, empathy, compassion, kindness, and was prejudiced against no one. She was accepting to a fault, which may have been one reason why she ended up married to a creep like Archie Bunker. He was unscrupulous, dishonest, rude, by no means intelligent, unattractive physically, and an unrepentant bigot. And he tended to treat her like shit. But Edith LOVED him. My guess is that she was indeed not that bright and very codependent.

There was an episode where Edith thought some big tittied blonde was after Archie. As if anyone else would have him.

Mike wasn't as bad as you all made him out to be. He kept Archie in check,sorta..... Without a character like Mike,Archie would have been a trainwreck....much like the current president. Poison to everything he touches

704 Hauser, Astoria, was in real life 89-70 Cooper Ave., Flushing. Current Zillow is $688K.

"Norman Lear was right not to allow it. Archie Bunker's Place was terrible."

Indeed it was. "All In The Family" should have ended when Mike and Gloria left for California. The show really declined in quality after that. "Little Steffie", an orphaned Jewish child that somehow gets dumped into the laps of the aging Bunkers was a very poor substitute. And of course when Jean Stapleton wanted to leave the show they STILL couldn't let it die a natural death; they had to kill off Edith to continue to have the show continue in the unfunny, bastardized version that was entitled "Archie Bunker's Place."

R76's scenario is entirely imagined. It never would have happened. Rob Reiner would never put in another appearance at Mick Stivic; he had moved on, and was a successful director. However, Carroll O'Connor could NEVER let go of Archie Bunker. He would continued to play him in any way, shape or form.

IIRC, Jean Stapleton's son, once an actor, is now a sitcom director.

The person who said "bad acting" upthread, is obviously clueless! Jean Stapleton was a wonderful actress, she was playing a role. It's called acting! I suppose that poster never saw Jean in anything else, they're judging her talent based on this one series?

Exactly how ridiculous are some DL posters? Unreal.

Jean's son John Putch played Barbara's awkward friend Bob on One Day at a Time. Anyone besides me remember Jean and Whoopi Goldberg teaming up for Bagdad Cafe in 1990?

[R85]

Just my opinion, but as the show went on, as a young teen I found myself disliking both men to different degrees. I don't know if this was Lear's intent, but I found Mike to be Archie's polar opposite. Naturally, that is going to create two different fan bases. They had qualities that would appeal to their bases, and qualities that would antagonize each others' base.

I just didn't find the "left vs right' scream fests to be that entertaining. But yes, some of the shows were funny.

I stopped watching when "Joey" came about. Like W.C. Fields, I hate children.

I thought Archie and Mike were equally unbearable in their different ways. They were both extremists.

I'm R76. In my post, I was imagining how they could have made a reboot work in the 1990s. There were never plans to bring back the show, even though Carrol O'Connor wanted to.

Both Mike and Archie were jerks at times. It was up to the women to keep the peace.

My southern great grandparents loved this show. When it aired, they were in their 70s, and they were glad that there was finally someone on TV speaking their point of view (even if he was a yankee). They would have loved Trump.

R88 Jean Stapleton was a gifted actress. You have to see how she was in real life to see how much she immersed herself in the character. I would admit, however, that in the last few seasons, they let Edith's dingbattiness go a bit over the top. The was she SCREAMS the lyric "And you knew who you were THEEEEEEEEEN!" in the last couple seasons is grating.

Two moments always stuck with me, the first when Edith told Gloria that Archie had always called her his "little dingbat" in an affectionate way when they were younger so when he called her "Dingbat" later, she heard the love in it.

Secondly, after Mike and Gloria had been arguing for days and there seemed to be no resolution for it, Edith started talking about her parents arguing about her mother forgetting to get maple syrup for her father's pancakes. Gloria interrupts her dismissively to say that their issues were a lot more important than maple syrup. Edith replies, "You WILL listen to me," and then goes on to say how her parents' argument went on to other things and they had said terrible things to each other and how things were never the same again, so they should think about what they were doing.

Just two examples of great writing in the series, showing there was a lot more going on in Edith's head than on a surface level, and why she was such a beloved character.

R31 Anyone remember details of what occurred when Sherman Hemsley claimed his partner was just some guy who rented a room in his house?

The Beverly Lasalle Christmas episode was a roller coaster. I got chills when Archie makes Edith open a gift to her, and the gift turns out to be from Beverly. And when atheist Mike reasons with Edith that she shouldn't give up her faith because she doesn't understand why bad things happen.

How the hell did Sherman Hemsley end up living (and dying) in El Paso? He was from Philly and obviously worked for years in LA.

He was searching for young Beto cock.

I was too young to watch it during its run. I watched it later and now and then re-watch. One of my favorite shows. First several seasons are wondeful. Jean wanted to change Edith during the 1st season and she was allowed. She wasn’t educated but she had warm heart and lots of love to give. Wonderful character.

[quote]How the hell did Sherman Hemsley end up living (and dying) in El Paso? He was from Philly and obviously worked for years in LA.

Because he was famous and had to hide the fact that he was gay?

I'm always shocked to read that so many late actors were gay and I'm not talking about attractive leading men actors.For example, that dumpy looking bald Italian/American actor who was occasionally on "Seinfeld". Think he was a neighbor or he played the building manager. When I read his obit in the NY Times, a longtime male partner was mentioned.

There are tons of gay actors in Hollywood, because so many are character actors and not A-List, the media doesn't dig too deep into their private lives.

Looking back at "All In The Family", it's a look at an economic golden age for blue-collar workers. Archie Bunker had a well-paid job for life and the promise of a good pension, he could afford to have a stay-at-home wife, buy a house in NYC, and have a daughter who aspired to college even if she never did anything but talk about it. Pretty good for a man who probably had to quit high school and get a job to help out his parents!

Of course that's all gone now, the unions are broken and the unskilled jobs have gone overseas, guns and drug abuse are rampant, and there's an evil propaganda machine in place that's convincing the descendants of the Archie Bunkers that it's all the fault of the "rich liberals". Those were the days, all right.

"Archie Bunker had a well-paid job for life and the promise of a good pension."

I never got the impression he had a "well paid job." Look at the furniture in the house. Look at the Bunker's clothing. The Bunkers were NOT well off.

Watching this show in retrospect makes me cringe because it’s so overblown and heavy-handed. Norman Lear never believed in depicting anything subtly when he could instead beat us over the head with it.

'Beverly Lasalle' was in three episodes. This was way ahead of its time, and it showed Archie trying to protect her.

Archie reminded me of my Dad. He was pretty uncensored, and had a bad temper, which I inherited from him. I just visited my dentist today, and my hygienist mentioned what a tempermental patient he was. Well, I knew that, but they eventually gifted him with a coffee mug saying he was their favorite patient. I frequently deserve a good kick in the ass, but I'm actually not mean. I just make stupid statements. It's funny that even though I blow up and piss people off, no one ever seems to stay mad at me. A long time ago, my parents hadn't met by boyfriend yet. We have driven around for lunch, and a drive in the country, and at some point, my Mom and I were talking about him, and I happened to mention he's black. My Dad heard, and blew up and asked, "look, I know you can't help being gay, but why would you date a black person? Don't you already have enough shit to deal with?" My Mom later told me she just thought it was funny, and he never made another comment about it, and when my Dad and my boyfriend finally met, they honestly really loved each other.

We're complex animals. Our thoughts going down all hit at lot of different levels as they sink inwards, and we have to take them in. Sometimes, our thoughts bounce off the wrong shelves. I've been deeply ashamed at some of my 'first reactions' to different news events. I try not to comment, ever, until I've had time to take in the news.

r58 I never saw that episode, I was 10 when it aired and my parents didn't think it was appropriate. My friend peeked out from the stairs while her parents were watching it so she got to see it and the next day at school was telling us about it.

What's funny is that there really were very few white Protestants living in Queens at that point in time.

Most whites were Catholic (Italian, Irish) and Astoria, where the Bunkers lived, was a very Greek neighborhood.

I was like 5 when the rape episode aired. Even then I thought David Dukes was perfection. God I wanted him to rape me. Sadly he died of the aids at 55.

you can't rape the willing. what about edith's trans friend?

R106 you dad IS Archie! Remember what Archie said to Sammy Davis, Jr? "Sammy, I gotta ask ya. You're black, I know you had no choice in that. But what ever made you turn Jew?"

Archie) What's this? Where's my Sunsweet Prune Juice

Edith) This prune juice costs less and Sybil Gooley says it tastes just the same

Archie) Tell SYBIL Gooley, I don't drink it for the taste

Stapleton has the unfortunate talent of turning any character into Edith adjacent. She was the understudy to Shirley Booth in Come Back, Little Sheba and copied Booth's worst mannerisms. I saw her a couple of times in San Jose doing musicals and every single character was Edith. Mrs. Lovett, Dolly Levy, etc.

Yes Stapleton’s multiple Emmys for Edith were because she was a bad actress. Oy.

Here is the brilliant scene where Mike consoles Edith over the death of her trans friend.

To set it up, Edith's friend Beverly LaSalle is murdered in a hate crime. Edith takes it very badly. Previously devout, she stops going to church. Her son-in-law Mike, and atheist, goes to talk to her.

R109, David Dukes did not die of AIDS.

David Dukes was involved with Jennifer Jason Leigh when she was like 16 and he was much older. He broke her heart 6 ways to Sunday.

Yeah, I looked up David Dukes after that comment, he did not die of AIDS. He was married twice, had two kids and died of a sudden heart attack.

I wonder why they didn't make Archie Catholic. It would have made much more sense and was even more believable than him being Protestant. This clip kills me and it is still relevant today.

Not to mention my pussy, r117!

"All In The Family" is frequently cringeworthy today. Archie Bunkers tosses out racial epithets with impunity: spics, spades, wops, Hebes, micks, etc. It was considered hilarious in its day. But it's not that funny anymore.

Archie played an over the top racist old man. Anybody with any sense that watched the show knew he was all talk and ridiculous sounding. When the Jefferson family moved next door Edith and Louise rolled their eyes at each other because George and Archie played the same ornery old man. That was the humor. Edith was a Saint to put up with Archie. Every one loved Edith. Jean Stapleton was a great American Actor and Ediths message was that loving Archie was the way she would educate him and show him her world of kindness tolerance and love.

Yes r120, I was a kid and when I heard Archie say "jungle bunny" in an episode I thought it was hilarious and my parents had to tell me not to say it.

Sherman Helmsly liked caucasian guys.That was established yrs ago...ie the rumor he was "involved"with the actor who played the Willis's son (second actor not 1st).

I was about 10, r109. I recall being equally frightened and titillated at the image of David in his white undershirt.

R123, actually, Sherman liked Puerto Rican boys. And he was about the nicest guy you'd want to meet.

How did Edith die on the show?

R126 a stroke in her sleep.

[R127]

That's what being happily married will do to you.

Norman Lear loved the ultra-extreme close-ups.

R116 and YOU'RE the dame that can PROOVE it!

Young Edith can be spotted as a sleazy rooming house floozy in SOMETHING WILD (1961), starring DL demi-icon Carroll Baker.

Maybe a pickup smacked her in the head one boozy night....and that’s why, mentally impaired, she decided to settle down and marry?

Doris Roberts crops up, too.

Don't forget the 1950's clip of one of Jean's characters flipping out over Tab Hunter!

Homosapien...That's a killer fag!

Actually, it's exactly the opposite, R102. It's a look at the first generation for which a blue collar job was not enough to get by. Archie frequently had to work a second job (he drove a cab) in order for them to make ends meet. The world was changing economically and socially and Archie was trying to hold on to the way things were for his parents - when an honest day's work was all a man needed to have a good, comfortable life.

It's a brilliant show, with incredibly well drawn characters and those of you saying it was not good are simply wrong.

R135 totally agree. It felt like a real family. With edgy topical humor. The cast had such remarkable chemistry.

R33, marry me!

[quote]R135 Archie was trying to hold on to the way things were for his parents - when an honest day's work was all a man needed to have a good, comfortable life.

Wouldn’t his parents have been raising him during the Depression?

Was an “honest day’s work” available?

Edith could get tough. There was an episode where Gloria was being a cunt and Edith slapped the piss out of her.

Jean Stapleton is in the movie versions of two hits in which she had supporting parts, "Damn Yankees" and "Bells Are Ringing". Certain Edith mannerisms were there because that's how Jean Stapleton talked to some degree, though she exaggerated it as Edith. Edith, however, is considered one of the most lovable characters in tv history. She isn't book smart, is probably almost as ignorant as Archie though usually without his malapropisms, but she is emotionally intelligent and accepting of all and a genuinely kind person.

I think actually of the 4 principals that Sally Struthers is the most normal. While she's Daddy's girl and occasionally acts childish, she does usually support Mike's causes against her father. She unfortunately works at a store to support her husband's education, and he kind of ungraciously lords it over her that she isn't as educated as he is. She adores her mother, and while she appreciates the support Archie has given her and his affection for her, thank God has not appropriated his bigotry. Louise and Irene Lorenzo are pretty down to earth as well, but with someone as out there as Archie and as antagonistically (liberal) to Archie, the show needed some middle ground. It was such a hit when it came out because no one said on tv the kinds of things that Archie was saying. They were saying them for real in houses, bars, etc., but at least here with the show's great writing, Archie was countered in his imbecility by the other characters.

Edith says goodbye to Louise.

R141 Later that day...

That scene where Edith says goodbye to Louise is heartbreaking. But I never understood it. Why was is a final goodbye? The Jeffersons were just moving to Manhattan, not another state or another country. Why couldn't Edith have come to visit Louise in her "dee-luxe apartment in the sky?" I think if she and Archie had paid visits to the Jeffersons it would have made for some very funny scenes.

In regards to R102 & R135, I would say you could still swing a home with a true blue low paying job in those days. I know an older guy with limited English from Italy, who he worked in a factory but was able to buy a 2 family home in Bay Ridge. He only had one job with 5 children and a stay at home wife. That could never happen today or even in the past the 80s.

R143- Edith was the type of woman who probably never left the neighborhood, unless she was with Archie. It would have been great to see Edith and Archie visit Louise and George. I just saw an episode where Louise visits the Bunkers, well to help rent the house the Jeffersons' still own next door. The thing is, Louise changed so much from when she lived in Queens and from the first few years of the Jeffersons. I couldn't see her really having anything in common at all with Edith anymore.

R143 the answer to your question lies in the episode of Maude where Florida leaves. They talk about how they're going to get together, but that Florida pauses and says "Mrs. Findlay, I don't think life is really like that." Maude goes "No, Florida, I don't guess it is." And they hug for what they know is the last time.

Mrs. Jefferson DOES return to All in the Family. Several years later, she returns, as she's trying to sell the next door house, which Mike and Gloria had been renting. Edith, reluctant to tell Archie Louise is coming by, says "Guess who's coming to dinner?" One of the very few real laughs in the final season of All in the Family. Also funny because Isabel Sanford was in the movie Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?

Didn't Florida and her family leave for another state? When people move to different states they frequently lose touch for good. But the Jeffersons weren't that far away, so the Bunkers could easily have visited them. And it was obvious Louise cared a great deal about Edith. Why should her new social status have alienated her from Edith? I still find it strange that Edith and Louise said such a final goodbye.

R146 no. In the world of Maude, she only quit because he husband, Henry, got a better job. She wasn't moving to Chicago.

Good Times takes place in a different universe. When they talk about their history, they've been living in Chicago for years and years.

Also, Edith was used to just popping over during the day, and Louise was too. And, neither of the husbands would've wanted to get together, ever. I understand it. Even if they do see each other again, and they did, it won't be the same. An era is ending for them.

Plus George and Archie really disliked one another. I could see Edith visiting Louise in Manhattan but not Archie.

"Plus George and Archie really disliked one another. I could see Edith visiting Louise in Manhattan but not Archie."

The conflict between Archie and George could have been used to great comic effect if Edith and Archie had visited the Jeffersons. I could see Louise inviting them and George tolerating it. Archie and George tended to go along with their wive's wishes if they really wanted to do something. An episode of The Jeffersons featuring the Bunkers would have been a great idea.

Florida quit her job at Maude's because her husband got a better job? So she didn't have to work anymore because her husband was doing so well? That doesn't seem too plausible. I always got the impression her family was going elsewhere to make a better life for themselves.

R150 I’d give up being a maid and cleaning other people’s shit if my husband could afford it.

Well, to be honest, I can't imagine Edith going to Manhattan. I think R144 is correct. She may have been a creature of her environment, with very limited exposure, but she somehow managed to bring an enormous amount of warmth and tenderness, despite her limitations. That was one of the most lovely things about Edith. She was a rare and lovely wildflower, planted in a barren brick and concrete landscape, who still managed to bloom.

"I’d give up being a maid and cleaning other people’s shit if my husband could afford it."

But her husband COULDN'T afford it. "Good Times" depicted Florida's husband James as just scratching out a living. Obviously the "better job" must have fallen through.

She wasn't retarded; just a New Yorkah.

Really R15 ? Tell that to ARC, the national Association for Retarded Citizens. I'm sure they would be interested to know that they are offensive to all the people they have helped for 78 years.

fuckin' retard

Edith Bunker would have felt out of place and awkward in a Manhattan high-rise. Yes, Lousie was an old pal (rather than a bosom friend), but the Jeffersons were moving up in the world and were presumably going to be making new friends higher up the social scale, and the Bunkers were staying right where they were. As everyone said, Archie and George didn't like each other very much, and Edith knew that Louise was leaving her behind.

If they'd met on the street they'd have been sweet to each other, but neither would have felt right in the other's home.

The Bunkers did appear at least once on The Jefferson's (at least Archie did)...remember he insulted mother jefferson by calling her mamie

She quickly told him to call her Mrs.Jefferson and to get away from her....so funny

Why Edith didn't visit more,maybe Archie wouldn't let her????

R153 In the world of Good Times, there was no "better job." The Florida of Maude was NOT the Florida of Good Times.

In Maude, Florida's husband's name was Henry, and he worked as a firefighter. I believe he got a promotion, and therefore she was able to quit. Firefighters basically have their jobs for life.

In Good Times, Florida's husband's name was James. He never referenced being a firefighter. In season 1, he spoke of having many short-lived jobs in recent years.

In Maude, I believe Florida and Henry lived with their 2 children in Harlem.

In Good Times, Florida and James lived in Chicago with their three children. In Good Times, may references were made to the last few years- all of them were in Chicago in that same apartment.

Eric Monte and Mike Evans brought a script to Norman Lear about a family in the Cabrini Green projects of Chicago. It was Lear's idea to take the Florida character and transplant her in that world.

Basically, if you'd asked the Florida of Good Times about her time working with Maude Findlay, she'd have no idea what you were talking about. It didn't happen in that universe.

R157 that was an episode of All in the Family that was meant to serve to introduce the characters of The Jeffersons. Mother Jefferson was there played by Zara Cully. Tom and Helen Willis were played by two less talented actors than the ones that eventually got the part. Lionel's daughter Jenny was played by a different actress too.

R157 That episode of All in the Family was called Lionel's Engagement. It aired in February 9, 1974. The Jeffersons started on January 11, 1975. So there was a year of development, and I think Lear was waiting out a contract for a play Sherman Hemsley was in .

Considering that she's a fictional character, it would be very difficult to diagnose whether she is mentally retarded.

She wasn't retarded. She was naive, and not very educated. But as someone said, she displayed an emotional intelligence that most on the show lacked. They exaggerated her a bit much, but, you know, television.

I the case that the later version of Chrissy Snow on Three's Company was retarded is stronger. The character started out pretty normal, but maybe slightly slow on the uptake at times. As the years went on, to my eyes she was acting more and more like a retard. She did her hair with three pony tails the way a retard might, were she left to her own devices. She had this obnoxious, snorty laugh that only a retard wouldn't know was inappropriate. She would make retarded faces, like faces a retard would think was funny.

It's a good thing she left the show when she did. She was pretty much out of control and bizarre.

Interestingly, consciously or subconsciously in the years after Sommers left, Joyces DeWitt began to play Janet as a wide-eyed airhead. Janet in seasons 1 and 2 was smart and sarcastic. In the last season she was like the later Ch without the charm

And with a pig 🐽 nose, r162!

Maude was better.

I love Threes Company, but this thread is about Edith. So, STIFLE!

[Quote]R162 As the years went on, to my eyes Chrissy was acting more and more like a retard. She did her hair with three pony tails the way a retard might, were she left to her own devices.

The Prosecution RESTS!

"Tom and Helen Willis were played by two less talented actors than the ones that eventually got the part."

They were NOT "less talented actors than the ones that eventually got the part." Charles Aidman played "Louis Willis"; he was a very accomplished character actor with a distinctive voice. Helen Willis was played by Kim Hamilton. I'm not familiar with her work, but she did a credible job on the the episode. Both Aidman and Hamilton were much more attractive than Franklin Cover and Roxie Roker, who played the Willises on "The Jeffersons." Cover's Tom Willis was a big, buffoonish guy and Roker's Helen was shrewish and loud mouthed. On "The Jeffersons" they were purely comical figures not to be taken seriously. On the "Lionel's Engagement" episode the Willises were a lot more realistic.

"Roker's Helen was shrewish and loud mouthed."

You obviously never saw Roker. She was the reverse, very sophisticated and elegant. There were very few episodes where she raised her voice or showed a temper.

"You obviously never saw Roker. "

I saw her alright. And "sophisticated and elegant" seems more like a description of Kim Hamilton as Helen Willis than Roker.

There was a 1973 episode in which Edith goes to her high school reunion. Based on the characters age, I assume she graduated in 1943. It made no sense because only about half the population graduated back then and most of those who did were either at least middle class and mostly unaffected by the Depression, or book smart with college aspirations. High school graduation rates didn't start becoming more common until around 1948 with the postwar economic boom. With Edith's background, poor grammar and speaking, I doubt she really would have graduated. As others have said, she was simply uneducated, not dumb. Plus it was a fictional show.

I remember the high school reunion episode. It was pretty funny, even though it does seem a little far-fetched that Edith was a high school graduate. Archie was a high school drop out, as I recall.

Yes I think you're right about Archie, R171. Edith mentioned it to Mike after another argument he had with Archie. It seems like I remember a rerun in which it was stated that Gloria didn't graduate either, which would have been unusual for the '60s but maybe I'm wrong or she dropped out of college.

Not a bit. I made a packet on Intel stock.

" I'm very rich. I bought Intel at six."

Gloria had wanted to go to college and had started, but she quit when she got married so she could pay her husband's way through college. There was an episode when he graduated and she said it was time for him to get a job and pay her way to a bachelor's degree in return, but he said he'd made it into grad school and expected her to keep working for several more years. Then of course she had a baby and Mike buggered off, so she never got to finish her education.

Still, those were the days when a blue-collar worker who'd never been able to finish high school could plausibly send his kids to college, without financial ruin.

Edith's HS reunion episode was a sweet one, with her reconnecting with her old crush, Buck, who had "married a gourmet cook."

That was the episode where Archie called Buck "a running fag".

As it turns out, Archie was right about Mike being "a meathead." On the spin-off "Gloria" it's revealed that Mike has deserted his wife and child by running off with one of his students to go live on a commune. At least I think that's what happened. That seems very unlike Mike Stivic to be so irresponsible, but the show had to find some explanation for his being gone, I guess. I could buy Gloria and Mike getting a divorce, but desertion? I don't think Mike Stivic would have done something that awful.

R177, it's a real sore point for AITF fans because it was an incident that clearly wouldn't have happened. Mike would have divorced Gloria. We all knew that. Their relationship was based on sex and antagonism towards Archie. We could also see that Mike would become ridiculously condescending towards Gloria about education because he WAS a hypocrite. But he never would have left Joey. And ironically, the show had him becoming more like Archie at the end. He would have easily become a Reagan Republican, not some hippie who joined a commune.

"Gloria" should have simply killed him off.

[R177/178]

Gloria aired in 1982. Reagan was president.

I believe the show rolled with the times and that's why Mike was made a villain.

Buck, who wound up looking like this.

Today Mike would be a fat Trumpster.

[R181] And, Mike would deny EVER being a hippy liberal or against Vietnam.

R179, in 1982 people -especially middle-aged men, as Mike would have been by then - were not joining communes.

I remember watching that explanation of Mike's absence when it first aired and thinking it absurd - and I was all of 12 at the time.

Up until around the mid 1980s going from any of the boroughs to "the city" Manhattan was a big deal for women and even young people. Even the subways had signs over one side of the tracks saying "the city" like Brooklyn, Queens, etc wasn't part of the city.

Unless they had a special reason like a doctors appointment or going to see a B'way show or going to Radio City or "the big" Macy's to see Santa at Christmas time women didn't just up and go to Manhattan. And when they did they dressed up. It was a really big deal.

People who lived in Manhattan almost never went to the boroughs unless it was for a special family visit or a trip to Coney Island or the Bronx Zoo or the 1964 World's Fair in Queens. If Manhattan people went just for the joy of it for a trip on the Staten Island Ferry it was just back and forth, almost never to walk around Staten Island. More often than not it was a treat for children. Most men of course went daily to work in Manhattan, but not women.

Louise might as well have moved to France as far as Edith was concerned. Women like Edith would never think of going to Manhattan just to visit a friend unless it was a family visit at the Holiday's

"I paid my own way through college! I never asked anyone for a handout!"

I’ve met several Ediths. There is the testing auditor over petty shit aspect.

Please translate into English, R186.

Edith's 50th birthday was in 1978, so she graduated high school in 1946. It's crazy that she was 42 when the show started.