Did Ava Gardner Ruin Frank Sinatra

She was so beautiful and he was handsome. A time in history that has come in gone.

One thing that I never thought regarding Frank Sinatra was that he was handsome. I get it that others might think so, but regardless of his alleged dick size as a factor in his favor, I could never see him as being handsome.

Ryan Murphy should do a miniseries on them.

R2 I am with you there as far the looks (rather than voice) go. Just doesn't do anything for me.

In a word, "No." Frank had a very successful career during WW2 that flagged in the late 40's and which resumed after he won the Academy Award as Maggio in From Here to Eternity. His time with Ava coincided with a lull in his career and the marriage ended after his career had been revived.

More to the point, how could Ava ruin his career? It was his career - if it was ruined, it's his fault, no? His marriage to Nancy suffered as a consequence of his infatuation with Ava Gardner but again, if his marriage failed, it was his fault, not hers: he's the one who was married.

When asked what she saw in a 120 pound weakling like Frank Sinatra, Ava famously said, "Well, there's only 10 pounds of Frank but there's 110 pounds of cock." So there is that.

Frank's devotion to Ava was always one of the better things about him--even after they were divorced....Personally, I've always found Frank Sinatra sexually repulsive....but yes, there's that voice, which could be so caressing and sensitive.

The devotion was not necessarily reciprocated. When Ava heard Frank had married Mia Farrow, she said, "Ha, I always knew Frank would end up in bed with a boy."

I think he did try to commit suicide when she left him. But he moved on, and his career continued. So she didn't "ruin" him. And by the way, Sinatra was NEVER "handsome." He was actually kind of an ugly guy; balding, with irregular features and a large nose.

"Did Ava Gardner Ruin Frank Sinatra"

No.

Frank Sinatra ruined "Frank Sinatra" because of Ava.

Who else did Ava love?

[quote]One thing that I never thought regarding Frank Sinatra was that he was handsome. I get it that others might think so, but regardless of his alleged dick size as a factor in his favor, I could never see him as being handsome.

He was fugly...like Mick Jagger, he got over with his talent and charisma.

Women fell for Sinatra over the MUSIC, he was a fug without the music. (LOL, R2, dick size means nothing to women, R11 nailed it). Sinatra cheated on his first wife relentlessly once he got famous.

Love how so many of you blame a woman for how Sinatra or anyone made a fool of themselves with drug and drink "over" some female infatuation. Get real. And R5, that "100 pounds of cock" was a fabrication - so said Ava.

R10 Artie Shaw, Mickey Rooney, Howard Hughes, Robert Mitchum, George C. Scott, and others.

Ava was as wild and free as raging rapids. She did as she pleased her whole life. No man could hold her down. Pity the fool who carried a torch for her for one minute! She had never been the marrying kind, though she married several times. Would never be tamed.

Didn't his glory days come after they divorced? He was a has-been crooner and aging male ingenue from fluffy musicals when he married her, from the late fifties to the early sixties he was a major movie star, a hit singer, and the Chairman Of The Board, leader of the Rat Pack.

So that would be "no", OP, it's more likely that the reverse was true. Garner's career declined during the fifties, as most beautiful actresses careers do after they pass thirty.

It was a case of can't live with em, can't live without em.... they weren't good for each other..but he came to her rescue at the request of her maid when other boyfriends hit her.....

they were madly in love. key word: MADLY. they drove each other to the nuts. he supported her after she moved to London, and when she was ill......... they were true bowl mates: bowls full of obsession, lust and craziness.

BTW:

who said "love is giving something you don't have to someone who doesn't want it"?

I never understood the combination of Sinatra and Mia Farrow. That was odd.

I have to admit, I never thought she was such a great beauty , until I saw this photo!

Someone on another thread said Sinatra looked like the director John Farrow, Mia's dad. Make of that what you will.

Jessica Christ, the cum stain who constantly starts these threads where women are evil and their poor men are so sad and misused needs a slap, sack of stupid shit

....

In her memoir Lauren Bacall told a story about Frank Sinatra and Ava Gardner. Ava was overseas and Frank heard that Lauren was flying to the same destination where Ava was at. He had Ava's favorite pie, coconut cream, specially boxed up, asked Lauren to be very careful with it and hand deliver it to Ava. Lauren agreed and was very careful with the pie all the way across the ocean and right to Ava's door. When she hand delivered the special pie to Ava she couldn't care less and just tossed it aside as though it didn't exist. Lauren was furious but didn't say anything at the time.

An iconic photo of Ava Gardner.

She died at only age 67 from too much wild living, booze, and men. Life in the fast lane......

67 isn't 27.

Ava Gardner's beauty was stunning. At the age of 14 she was totally gorgeous.

67 is sufficient.

Despite being married 3 times and having multiple lovers Ava Gardner never had any children. She became pregnant twice while married to Frank Sinatra but aborted both times stating that MGM had penalty clauses about star's having babies. It's possible that being a very free, wild spirit she never wanted any children.

She was a big tall healthy girl. I wonder if she ever physically injured Sinatra?

Because you bet your ass he tried to hurt her, he was an absolute shit to women.

Ava in one of her best performances and movies, "Night Of The Iguana" playing Maxine the bawdy and flamboyant owner of a seedy motel.

Bette Davis played Maxine on Broadway for a few months, then Shelley Winters took over. It's a fun role.

R23 Does Lauren note whether Ava eventually served the pie with a cup of High Point coffee?

Who else did Ava love?

Well...I don't think she returned Lena's love...emotionally.

Side note of a sort... my parents were so good at telling me things that I didn't know or introducing me to the careers some actors had before I 'met' them on TV. I remember when Julie London was on Emergency! - I loved that show. My mom explained how Julie was once a famous singer and was married to Bobby Troupe (who was also on Emergency!). At some point she pulled out one the JL albums and played it for me (and she told me that my father had a thing for Julie).

It was the same with Ava Gardner - Ava appeared on Knots Landing as Greg Sumner's mother - Howard Duff had been cast as Sumner's father. During commercials Mom would talk about Ava and Duff's Hollywood careers and who they had been married to years earlier.

Oh and for years my mother had a crush on Jason Robards.

I love Julie London's singing. I read a biography of her that was published last year: she wasn't a happy soul, which comes through in her melancholy songs.

In a way she did. He had it coming tho with the way he treated women in general. He was mad about her and crazy in love and she wasnt as much into it. That is always a highway to heartbreak. She once described Sinatra as being almost like a woman in bed............soft etc etc I guess. I dont think she was talking about his endowment obviously. That was about the last thing I would have suspected she would say. I guess she liked the rough and tough type. Anyway she sounded genuinely disappointed in the bedroom aspect of Sinatra

Jesus, the ridiculous phony lines that have been attributed to Ava Gardner. R36, she never said anything about Sinatra in bed. She drunkenly threw off the line that she always knew he "would end up with a boy" (Mia Farrow) to Rex Reed. Allegedly. And since Ava was no stranger to same sex love, being "like a woman" in bed would not have been a put-down.

She broke him for sure.

reply 37, go fuck yourself

Wasn't his role in From Here to Eternity a direct result of a horses head in some producers bed?

She said Mickey Rooney was good in bed. She did.

Maybe the reason no man could tame her was because she preferred women but at that time who could imagine anyone having a successful gay relationship. So she had the best relationships she could with people that were acceptable according to societies standards.

Ava did in fact make mention of Frank sexually, though tastefully. Her term for sex was "in the feathers" referencing the feather/down of a mattress? She intimated that for a time she could not stay away from Sinatra for their chemistry "in the feathers."

OP's picture is the best I've ever seen of Sinatra.

Her autobiography "My Story" is pretty good but "Love is Nothing" by Lee Server is fascinating.

Links people, links instead of fantasy.

Frank was no where near attractive in any physical sense. He was lucky Ava sneezed in his general direction. Which he knew and subsequently took care of her in her dotage.

For the Julie London fan check out "The Girl Can't Help It." You will love her cameo.

....

Now, Mickey Rooney's the guy that fascinates in terms of his women. But Sinatra was not ruined by Ava. Not even when he did attempt suicide. i remember reading that at one point he was on the phone with her screaming and crying about how if she broke up with him, he'd kill himself, and then he fired a gun over the phone (into his mattress) and she laughed and said "Oh, Frank, please! You won't kill yourself. You love yourself too much to kill yourself.!" Anyway, they say that the music he made during the turbulent period after Ava left him, was some of his best shit. Ava remained close to Frank's mother right up until she died.

I loved Kitty Kelly's biography of Sinatra. Good stuff in there.

Lord, Sinantra was fug. He was lucky he was so talented and sparked in bed with the the ladies, otherwise he would have just been another short, mean troll.

If anything "ruined' Sinatra it was his marriage to Mia Farrow. Ava Gardner wasn't alone in her sarcasm about that relationship. Who could take him seriously after that?

I read somewhere he was a very accomplished lover.

Several woman have testified that Sinatra was the same kind of selfish lover most men were at the time.

Best: Patty Duke, who spent the night in bed with Sinatra, and he didn't touch her.

There was a time during his initial rush of fame that Sinatra was attractive. Remember that he had his "bobby soxers," legions girls in their teens and early 20s who would swoon and faint at the sight of him and rush the stage at his appearances, a reaction that the Beatles would get in the early '60s. But he aged, lost his hair, and become ogreish in appearance and manner. He reminds me of Prince Andrew who had a brief fleeting period of being handsome (to some).

His bobby soxers

[quote] When asked what she saw in a 120 pound weakling like Frank Sinatra, Ava famously said, "Well, there's only 10 pounds of Frank but there's 110 pounds of cock." So there is that.

What she said was, "He may only weigh 119 pounds but 19 of it is his cock."

"IT"S FRANKIE!!!!"

Ava and Frank - Hollywood stars of yesterday tell about romance

[quote]Jessica Christ, the cum stain who constantly starts these threads where women are evil and their poor men are so sad and misused needs a slap, sack of stupid shit

Exasperated fraus are funny fraus. Unintentional of course.

Was he too big for Nancy Cucumber Davis Reagan ?

Not for that mouth of hers, no way was he too big.

"She said Mickey Rooney was good in bed. She did."

Ugh, Mickey Rooney. In his nasty memoir he talks about sucking her tits and the color of her nipples (they were brown). He cheated on her, and in their marriage bed. He also said he would have fallen in love with Judy Garland, but she wasn't his type, that is, not good looking enough. Why in hell did she marry such a little creep as Mickey Rooney? Well, he was a huge star at the time and gave her a big diamond ring. I guess she was smitten with his stardom. Even so, it's still hard to believe. She could have married anybody and she married HIM? Ava, what were you thinking?

R52: "If anything "ruined' Sinatra it was his marriage to Mia Farrow. Ava Gardner wasn't alone in her sarcasm about that relationship."

Dean Martin among them. He told Sinatra it would never work when he said, "Pallie, I've got Scotch that's older than that."

If we just wanna gossip about dead movies stars let’s go but why do we keep falling into this guys trap.

He’s forever making a did [female celebrity] ruin [male celebrity]?

If you weren’t gay I’d tell you to go join MGTOW. You’d have a blast with those guys.

Their bust-up inspired Sinatra’s hands-down best album.

"There was a time during his initial rush of fame that Sinatra was attractive."

No, he was never handsome, he was just boyish for a while.

And no, Ava didn't "ruin" Sinatra, nothing ever ruined Sinatra but age and time. She was, however, the one woman who managed to hurt him, instead of the other way around.

Pretty funny all these people talking about how ugly Frank was , as if that had anything to do with his effect on women. The guy had charisma and sex appeal shining out of his ass . Any woman who slept with him and talked about it raved . Just because a man doesnt look like Zac Efron does not make a lot of difference to most women. Looks dont have a great deal to do with sex appeal to most women. Frank apparently was pretty irresistible.

Frank Sinatra was a boor and a thug. He called women "broads." The women who were involved with him no doubt had to put up with a lot.

Jesus R69 and so many others posting here about how ugly Sinatra was physically and apparently spiritually. You have no sense of history or time or taste or what a man like Sinatra could hide when necessary.

You think Sinatra was the only man who used the term "broad"? get over yourself, it was commonly used. Hell, it was used as a compliment. "She's a great broad" similar to "she's a helluva dame".

He was a good looking young man; so what if you do not find him "hot" or "sexy" - young women in the 1930s and 40s did.

He was a selfish lover? That's something we learn when people begin to gossip - it's not something women all over America are going to know, it's something a very few learned and later some dished about.

The ignorance casually tossed off here is really disheartening,

R70 = Nancy Sinatra Jr

When Ava married Mickey, he was the Number One Star in the World. And vastly talented. And even sort of cute in a cocky kind of way.

Mickey Rooney pube tease.

If you have any doubt of Ava's off-the-charts sexual charisma, check her out at 15:52, where she's shot without the benefit of MGM cinematography, flattering lighting and a decent script.

Ava said in her own words that Mickey Rooney was without doubt the best in bed of all her husbands. You have to know that at the time she married him he was the number one box office attraction in the world and in his own unique way was a pretty cute little guy. Lots of energy and enthusiasm and I think that carried over to the bedroom as well.

Call me crazy but I think young Mickey Rooney was way hotter than young Frank Sinatra! He must have been great fun in bed.

R75 True, Ava said that Mickey Rooney turned her on sex.

When Mickey Rooney was an old guy in Sugar Babies on Broadway, he used to sometimes go out and see the audiences outside the theater. My sixteen year old sister came back from a show and told me that he came out and saw her and he promptly lifted up his shirt -- and he had the biggest roundest belly she'd ever seen before in her life, "bigger than a pregnant lady," she said.

She had no idea why he did that. She was a dancer and so wasn't even there to see Rooney, or his belly for that matter -- she was there to see Ann Miller.

And that is my brush with Mickey Rooney, via my sister.

Ava looked like hell in Night of the Iguana (1964) and Frank's career just kept on going. Ruin Frank Sinatra? He was the best voice that ever lived. Please.

R70, are you aware that you're in a gossip forum and not in church?

There was a pretty good made for TV biopic about Sinatra back in the 90's I think. The guy who played him was good, too. I always wondered WEHT him whenever there 's one of these discussions about Sinatra. I think Olympia Dukakis played Dolly Sinatra, his mother and Marcia Gay Harden of all people played Ava. I'd love to see it again but it's impossible to find.

Ava and Lena reminiscing in 1984. Looks like Ava remembers a good time ;)

Ava was all “broad” (as discussed upthread) in the best possible sense. Loaded with charisma and preposterously gorgeous.

Her hard living did begin to show in the 60s, but that’s when she gave some of my favorite performances - Night of the Iguana, On the Beach, and Tam Lin, the latter largely overlooked but tremendously entertaining.

And Earthquake is a camp classic that no one should be denied.

Marcia Gay Harden as Ava in a Sinatra biopic

True story: An old Jazz pianist I once knew (died 20 years ago) who occasionally played with Lionel Hampton, told me a story about Sinatra. He said that the legendary Count Basie was in hock up to his neck to the mob, because of his gambling debts in Las Vegas. They threatened to break his hands and do other bad things. He was in deep shit. Sinatra heard about it and he reached out to the Count, suggested they do an album together to pay off his debt. Sinatra worked for free, never got any royalties. It not only paid off his debts, but it jump started Count Basie's career. Musicians loved Sinatra, considered him one of them.

"The Rat Pack" tv movie. Ray Liotta as Sinatra. Deborah Kara Unger as Ava.

The Ballad of Tam Lin.

I knew my fandom was not in isolation.

Deborah Kara Under was a surprisingly good Ava in the clip at r86.

Philip Casnoff as SInatra 1992 TV mini series.

Cool story, R85, but people who really knew Count Basie called him Bill. Two, a person that opens their wallet for grandiose gestures like Sinatra, are usually not very dependable on the old boring day-to-day life. They like to show off their largess.

SInatra 1992 with Marica Gay Harden making her entrance as Ava Gardner.

R90 WTF claimed to know COunt Basie personally in my post? Fuck you. I heard the story about him and Sinatra from an old jazz pianist who worked with Lionel Hampton once in a while. MY dead pianist friend never claimed to know him, and I only met him once when I worked at a non profit performance space that was one of the stops on one of Count Basie's last tours. back in the early 80's maybe late 70's. I was in college at the time.

R92 = needs medication

"The ignorance casually tossed off here is really disheartening,"

The ignorance is all yours. Sinatra was an asshole; an egoist, rude, entitled, a nasty guy. He was not good looking, by any definition or standard. He treated women like any boorish, chauvinistic guy would; to him they were possessions. He made this comment at his first Las Vegas show after his wedding to Mia Farrow: "I finally found a broad I can cheat on.' What a nice guy. He was good buddies with mobsters. Although he had his moments of generosity, Sinatra was by and large a Hollywood shitheel. And that's just stating a fact.

R94 True, but he had a voice like no other.

Even Bing Crosby (until Sinatra came along, the guy who defined the word "crooner") said that Sinatra "has a voice that comes along once in a lifetime. But why did it have to be my lifetime?"

I read a horrible story about him, and ever since I can't stand to listen to him.. It involved Marilyn Monroe. She was a wreck. I don't recall if it was after JFK dumped her, or if it was after she divorced Arthur Miller. She was going through a bad time. He persuaded her to come to Cal Neva to get some rest and relax. He had Sam Giacana there and he wanted Marilyn. So they raped her. Took turns. Kept her drugged locked in a room, and took turns. And she went there because she trusted him. There was even a photo taken for some tabloid showing her in disarray at the Cal Neva Lodge. It was horrible.

Found it. I might have guessed Peter Lawford was involved. This happened in July the year Marilyn died.

Speak for yourself, r12, about dick size. It means something to me and any woman who says bigger ain't better is lying their ass off.

Anyway, yes, Sinatra was a despicable guy, but man, could he tell a story with that unmistakable, instantly identifiable, compelling voice.

As with all of the great ones- Presley, Streisand, Garland, Franklin and Armstrong, when you hear the first word of their song, you don't have to ask, "Who is this?" You know.

Thanks for the story R85. I believe it.

Apparently, Frank could be very generous. I think he paid off all of Sammy Davis Jr. debts and medical expenses. I remember reading about others but can't remember specifics.

But he could turn on somebody for the slightest thing. And fairly viciously. I don't know what his mental condition was but he could be a very volatile man. Surprisingly, he never lost his temper when he was working with a band or when he was recording. He was patient with everybody. He had a real respect for his music.

He had sex with a whole lot of women. There must have been something that attracted them. He even had a villa in Nice, where he would meet Princess Grace Kelly. But she was one of many.

This was all in a biography that someone was good enough to post a lot of here. I think he was a very complicated man. It seems he was probably a nightmare. But did he have the best voice in the last 60 years? I think so.

I still prefer Bing.

With Jackie O in the 70s.

She said that her father was touched by the "tar brush"...make of it what you will.

Gina Gershon was originally cast as Ava in the Philip Casnoff Sinatra TV movie but when they discovered she couldn't act, they hurriedly brought in Marcia Gay Harden and gave Gina the Nancy Sr. role as a concession.

I remember reading an interview with Harden when she made the film, saying how she couldn't believe she was cast as the great beauty Ava when she had nostrils you could drive a truck through. She was right.

I loved Gina as Nancy Sr. IMO, She really favored the real Nancy Sr. Only prettier. I thought it was a pretty good movie as biopics go. Apparently the Sinatra family was not pleased. At all. Philip Casnoff sort of resembles a young Guy Pearce from L.A. Confidential.

The great profile of Frank Sinatra by Gay Talese, "Frank Sinatra Has a Cold" is at the link. Talese never interviewed him or was even introduced, but he managed to capture Sinatra as no one had ever been able to -- his hair trigger narcissistic boorishness and casual contempt for those who didn't fit his whims-- all enabled by this "friends" and hangers on -- and the largesse he bestowed, however self-serving it may have been. I can';t imagine Sinatra was too pleased with the profile Talese constructed. I haven't read it in a while, but the part part I recall best was about the little old lady who earned $400 a week (in 1966) who tended to his collection of 60 toupees. It's long, but well worth reading.

I don’t have anything to contribute except that I’m obsessed with Ava so please keep the stories coming. Hollywood hasn’t seen a great beauty like that in a very long time. I can’t think of one working actress that would be remotely comparable to Ava.

I know I’m going to get shit for this, but Angelina Jolie (in her heyday) was striking like Ava G

I can’t think of a single other actress that would compare

I think Angie was a beauty but not even close to the natural earthy sensuality of Ava. Ava was in a class by herself. And from all reports she was a very fun very warm person.

R108

If you remove all the weird baggage from Angelina Jolie circa late 90s early 2000s at least in physical attribute she was the closest of modern times to Ava Gardner.

Shhhh, R94, and all the others. The millennials here don't know any of that. They swallow all of the "Sinatra was the best" bullshit because they don't remember him (obviously) and they don't understand his music anyway.

Whatever else he was, he could sing. He was a master at phrasing. He was one of a kind as a singer. There are scores of artists out here throughout history playrights, actors directors, painters poets, authors, musicians, literary figures who were horrible people. They were abusive violent corrupt drug addicts alcoholics, bi polar, narcissistic, psychopaths, sociopaths, etc.etc.etc. Miles Davis was a horrible person. He was abusive and violent. Caravaggio was dissolute. A number of them were larcenous, some plagiarized, stole ideas, pissed on the floor, and did unspeakable things. I'm not excusing Sintatra. he was not a nice person. he had a very ugly side. But he could sing.

I think that's the best thing you could say about him: he could sing. But he kept singing long after he COULDN'T sing anymore. For many years he was just going through the motions.

That's show biz. Fire for a few years, then ashes for a few more.

Wasn't the guy who wrote Alice in Wonderland or Through the Looking Glass a pedophile?

Sinatra's voice was fine through the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's. By the mid or late 70's it showed signs of wear. By the 80's it was long gone. So I'd say for about 15-20 years he was struggling.

How old was he when he sang New York, New York?

64 -

My grandma had been a bobby soxer. She would go on and on about him. So, I can tell you firsthand, women from a certain age were crazy about him, and found him attractive.

But did Ava "ruin" him? No. Though, as someone else here suggested, he met his match in her. For his whole life, whatever woman he was with was more into him than he was into her. He had all the power in every relationship. Except Ava. Which made Frank desire her more. That plus her exquisite beauty is a POWERFUL combo. She was the love of his life, and while he moved on and lived life, I don't think he ever got over her.

I relate to Ava. We both grew up pulling tobacco in rural North Carolina. She escaped to LA, I escaped to Manhattan.

[quote]But he kept singing long after he COULDN'T sing anymore.

So did one of his idols, Mabel Mercer. Just because the voice gets shot, it doesn't mean the artistry does.

I wonder how many people knew Sinatra was a smoker? He drank a lot but I don't think people realized he smoked for years, not just when he was young and everyone thought it was cool.

He would stop smoking a few weeks before recording, or so I've read. The bobby soxers needed someone to idolize, and there you have it. He had a great voice, brilliant blue eyes, and a great name. SINatra - the "sin" was subliminal.

My grandmother was a bobbysoxer. Then she turned on him when he left Nancy.She called him a "Pig!"

Actually, Ava Gardner made Frank a better singer. His torch songs are the best of any singer ever. And they were all about Ava. The one that got away resonated with him and with his voice.

My jam

Ava Gardner had such [bold]pure raw sexuality[/bold] she even gave Paul Lynde an erection!

I had the impression that if anything she saved rather than ruined him. His career was in the doldrums when they got together while her's was solid and she used her connections to help get him the role in From Here to Eternity which garnered him an Oscar nomination and gave him a career bump. Or did I just dream that? If true, it might help explain why he helped her out financially in her later years.

I had a friend when I lived in London who told me how he met her one day when they were both walking their dogs in Hyde Park. They sat down on a bench near the Italian Fountains and smoked a cigarette while the dogs had a play. He said she was lovely - fairly dismissive of her career but appreciative of the benefits it had brought her. Of all the 'old Hollywood' stars, she's the one I'd most have liked to go on a pub crawl with.

No- he did just fine after his affair with her and remained loyal. He was NOT handsome. He may have been charismatic and have a huge dick, but he was not handsome. I could not stand him. He may have been loyal to his chums and some of his ex's, but so are mafia dons. Big deal. He was a great singer but I cannot get over what a creep he was to so many.

"I think being jilted is one of life's most painful experiences. It takes a long time to heal a broken heart. It's happened to all of us, and it never gets any easier. I understand however, that playing one of my records can help" - Francis Albert Sinatra, Chairman of the fuckin' Board

R127 he actually won for FHTE. It was probably one of the greatest Oscar landslides in history. One of the above posters was correct. Sinatra never looked back after winning that Oscar. He just kept getting bigger almost to mythic proportions. Gardner peaked in the early 50s with her lone Oscar nomination, ironically the same year as Franks. So it should be the other way around.

Thanks R130 but do you know if it is true that she used her connections to get him the role in the first place?

"He drank a lot but I don't think people realized he smoked for years"

What people? Everyone knew Sinatra smoked, he even smoked DURING songs when he was on TV. Everybody smoked, Tony Bennett and Sarah Vaughan included. Judy too.

My grandmother was too young to be a bobby-soxer, but she wanted to go see him at the Paramount on Broadway because she heard about the crowds. She liked his movies and music as she got older. I asked her once if Sinatra would be attractive/handsome without the music. Her answer: NO.

R131 I’ve heard that Sinatra practically begged for the role. Never heard about Ava’s possible influence but I wouldn’t be surprised.

Is it true that Joan Crawford was originally offered the role of Karen in From Here to Eternity. the role that Deborah Kerr played? Apparently, Joan quibbled with some of the wardrobe choices.

Was she out of her mind??

And how in the world did they come to choose Donna Reed to play the call girl?

Casting on that film must have been quite a wild ride. Is there a book or article about the making of....?

Ava went to Harry Cohn in a meeting set up by Cohn's wife at the time, because she & Ava were good friends. That's how Frank got the part in From Here to Eternity as Maggio. It's true. If it weren't for Ava, he would never have got it.

Ava presenting at the Oscars.

A series of close up shots.

"But he could turn on somebody for the slightest thing. And fairly viciously. "

Yeah, I'm sure you know this story... In 1960, Sinatra campaigned for Kennedy, and was thrilled when he won. He thought he was going to be best pals with the cool young president of the US! Kennedy, of course, didn't want to be seen hanging out with someone so Mobbed Up, not when he didn't need him any more. Sinatra was FURIOUS, and took it out on Peter Lawford, who was Kennedy's brother-in-law and a member of the Rat Pack. From that moment on Lawford was out of the Rat Pack, and Sinatra used his connections to tank Lawford's career.

The thing is, none of that was Lawford's fault, it was a policy decision made at the White House. But Sinatra had told Lawford to fix things with Kennedy and Lawford failed, so that put him on Sinatra's shit list forever.

[R135] Ava went to Harry Cohn in a meeting set up by Cohn's wife at the time, because she & Ava were good friends. That's how Frank got the part in From Here to Eternity as Maggio. It's true. If it weren't for Ava, he would never have got it.

—Anonymous

I always suspected Ava was responsible for that Horse's Head incident.

R138

I'd always thought this was the case (it was actually Attorney General Bobby Kennedy's decision not to have JFK stay at Sinatra's Palm Springs compound because Frank was mobbed up; an added insult to Sinatra because he'd just built a helipad for the Presidential chopper which he took a sledgehammer to when he found out he wouldn't be hosting. THAT insult was compounded when Kennedy stayed at Bing Crosby's place because Crosby was a Republican) but if so, what are we reading above that Pat and Peter Lawford were at the Cal-Neva Lodge with Sinatra, Sam Giancana, and Marilyn Monroe the weekend before she died?

I thought Sinatra did all he could to punish Lawford for his lack of juice with his then brothers-in-law. So why were they socializing - hanging out together - when they were no longer working together?

Speaking of turning on people viciously... during the making of "From Here to Eternity", Sinatra and Montgomery Clift were the best of friends. They hung out all the time, along with the author of the book they were acting out, and goofed off in the boxing ring and did a lot of drinking together. When the production went to Hawaii for location shoots, they went out and got falling-down hammered every night. (And when they got back to the hotel Burt Lancaster would carry them up to their rooms and put them to bed, and Sinatra called Lancaster "Mom" forever after.)

And that went on, until Sinatra cut Clift out of his life, presumably because he'd found out that Clift was gay. Clift was heartbroken, he thought Sinatra was a true friend, but homophobic narcissist like Sinatra aren't really anyone's friend.

What did Ava say or do to Harry Cohn that got Sinatra the role? Why would she have any power over Cohn?

Mia must have something. Frank, Andre Previn and Woody Allen. Jesus.

Sinatra befriended JFK when he was a senator. As for the mob - the nightclub biz was owned by the mob - so all singers had contact with them one way or another, Sinatra had closer ties than most. None of it was a mystery to Kennedy from the start. After he was president, Bobby insisted JFK lose Sinatra as R140 said. Sinatra cut off all Kennedys after that (except for Jackie on an occasion or two). I remember seeing Frank on TV in a film clip saying he didn't think Bobby Kennedy was qualified to run for public office in 1964 - Sinatra was fat and bald and I thought he looked like Mickey Rooney.

Not all celebrities are insecure, narcissistic drunken assholes like Sinatra, but it's not uncommon for celebrities to cut people off when they feel slighted or erase people from their past when they achieve power.

Sinatra undoubtedly dumped a lot of people once they were no longer of use to him, R144, but when the Kennedys did it to him he didn't have enough perspective to be anything but PISSED about it.

Sounds like he had a batshit crazy temper.

(sigh.) OK here's the story from all the kazillion books I've read. Joe Kennedy's ties to mobsters over the years helped when JFK ran for President. He had the mob "work closely" with union bigshots to help deliver votes during the primaries and general election. Promises were made to the mobsters by Joe. They were really pissed about Castro and Cuba and they wanted that resolved. They had other agenda items they wanted taken care of.

Giancana and Johnny Roselli were among those who were expecting payback. Sinatra was close to Giancana. Frank met JFK when he was a senator who loved to party and hang out with Peter Lawford when he was in LA. Lawford was a pimp for JFK. Anyway, Frank Sinatra got a lot of Hollywood stars to get on board the Kennedy bandwagon early. They campaigned for him, raised money for him, etc.

After Kennedy won, Sinatra was drafted to help produce and put together a major fundraiser/ Gala on the Eve of the Inauguration in D.C. He delivered in spite of a crippling snow storm that paralyzed the city and closed the airports. His people showed up: Shirley Maclaine, Judy Garland, and a shitload of celebrities stepped up. Frank later complained that they didn't even thank him or show any appreciation.

Then, he went through a lot of trouble to build a "western White House" on his property for Presidential visits. But as was mentioned above, when Bobby realized Frank had ties to mobsters he told his brother to back away from him. So yes, JFK stayed at the very wholesome Bing Crosby estate. Crosby was a Republican. Frank went nuts. He blamed Peter Lawford for misleading him, for over selling his own influence over JFK, and for generally being an annoying ass kissing sycophant.

The other side of this was that Sinatra lost face with Giancana who was counting on Sinatra having an inside track through Lawford. The mobsters weren't getting anything they were promised. After Joe had his stroke all bets were off. They knew Bobby and JFK were never going to come through for them. The rest is history.

Whoever told that story upthread about Lauren Bacall describing Ava's reaction when she delivered the pie, bear in mind Lauren was engaged to Sinatra at one point in time so I would take her description with a grain of salt.

Didn't Sinatra cut Lauren Bacall off over something trivial as well, when they were engaged? She said something to the press without his approval and he broke the engagement and never spoke to her again? Surely here someone knows the story.

He really was a little prick, wasn't he.

A marriage between Bacall and Sinatra would have been a huge disaster so nothing was lost there. She was still reeling from Bogart's death and wasn't thinking straight, much like Elizabeth Taylor with Eddie Fisher. At least there was no Debbie Reynolds and the kids involved on this one.

R141 True, Frank Sinatra kicked Monty Clift out from one party, Monty was drunk and made a pass at some guy, Sinatra saw that and kicked him out.

R150 Actually, Lauren Bacall was sleeping with Sinatra long before her husband's death, She was in love with Sinatra when she was still married.

Bogie died of Lung Cancer not a heart attack. That is to say it was not a quick, sudden death. He was sick and struggling for at least a year and certainly many months before he finally died, using oxygen, etc. Not excusing Lauren Bacall, but Frank was a close friend to both of them, and it was kind of slimy of him to go after her at a vulnerable time. Bacall sort of announced the engagement and plans to marry before Frank was ready. So he broke up with her. I don't think he ever wanted to marry her. She was the widow of a legend. His ego wouldn't have stood it.

"Bacall sort of announced the engagement and plans to marry before Frank was ready."

I thought Bacall has spoken with columnist Earl Wilson, and he wrote that they were to be married even though Bacall hadn't said that. Sinatra would have married Bacall because she was a PRIZE after Bogart's death. Sinatra idolized Bogie. Decades later Sinatra sued Wilson (who was a slimebag too) when Wilson was writing a book about him claiming he was writing an autobiography (he wasn't).

Where is the Sinatra was Bi-Polar troll? Usually he shows up to use that excuse him whenever we talk about what a creep Sinatra was. Yes, Sinatra once referred to himself as "manic depressive," but it was not a clinical diagnosis, plus people didn't talk out loud about stuff like that in the 1950s-60s. Not only was it taboo, it meant not passing an insurance physical ever again (no work ever again). That would apply to anyone - even Frankie.

The Frank Sinatra fascination/mega fame/bobysoxers - everything = Metaphysics. He made it all happen, himself.

R155, without Tommy Dorsey? Nelson Riddle? Alan Livingston? Sam Giancana? Dozens of others? You're dreaming.

I don't blame Bacall for having an affair during Bogie's last days. If you had any idea of the stress, heartache, and strains involved in caring for a dying person, you'd be willing to forgive a caregiver anything they did for a little secret harmless fun.

And frankly, Sinatra would have been better off with Bacall than Mia Farrow. Bacall might have stood up to him the way Gardner did, she was known to be a monumental bitch after all. Or was she only bitchy to the little people?

I believe that Sinatra got into some screaming and yelling fights with Ava, since his singing voice in the 1950s lacked that creamy smoothness that he had as a crooner in the 40s. His drinking also affected his voice. His cragginess in his voice was redeemed by his style in using his voice, as well as his having many of the best writers at his beck and call. Plus his arrangement, mostly by Nelson Riddle, could make even an adequate singer sound really pretty damn good. When Sinatra came out of a retirement and started singing in places again like Madison Square Garden, his voice was really out of shape and he cracked a lot. He got a bit better once the vocal muscles were used to being exercised again, though he from 1950s to the end never again had the croony pretty voice on which his fame began. Bing Crosby and Perry Como retained that through their careers . I guess they never screamed for long fights with Ava Gardner though.

R157 Maybe you don't, but a lot of people did, thinking Betty was really trashy first to be cheating on her husband/legend who'd made her career and fathered her children while he was on his deathbed and shortly thereafter being seen with Sinatra in public. It was the 1950's and she didn't get a lot of sympathy when Frankie cut her off. Long before he did, 14 months after Bogart's death, they were seen around town together way too soon - her mourning period for her late husband was remarkably short. Whether she told Wilson or not, word got out and not on Frank's terms so he cut her off. She's lucky he did - that marriage would have been a disaster as well.

Bogie fucked around on Bacall - with his secretary, I think - after they were married but before he was diagnosed with lung cancer, but he was discreet. Bacall, whether before or so soon after Bogie's death, was not.

Ava was a broad, she didn't give a damn if you were black or white , gay or straight. She was your friend. Ava was banned from the Madrid Ritz, for pissing in the lobby fountain , one too many times.

LOVE THIS STORY : At Ava's funeral in rural NC, there was a big ol'black limo, nobody got out of at the Cemetery, all the mourners thought it was Frank. It was 3 DRUNK QUEEN HAIRDRESSERS FROM RALEIGH.

Once waited on Mickey Rooney, Not a very nice guy. At least better than Serena , Welchel and Jimmy Walker.

A marriage between Bacall and Sinatra would haven been disastrous. She was very strong willed and wouldn't have put up with any of Sinatra's shit or his goon pals. He beat up Mia Farrow but had he laid a hand on Bacall she would have flattened him in more ways than one. They both dodged a bullet on this one.

What kind of settlement or arrangement did Big Nancy get in the divorce? She seemed to live very comfortably for the rest of her life. I assume Frank took care of her.

As I recall there was some stipulation that Frank would take lavish care of her and she'd want for nothing...as long as she stayed single. If she remarried she'd lose everything. Which is as it should be. Why would he pay once she was married.

More than he had to give her - California is a community property state so she was entitled to half, albeit at a time when his career was going down the tubes. He always took care of her as long as he lived. And where she lived was in Holmby Hills and she never worked a day in her life (outside the home, anyway) after that.

I'd like to hear more about the fat of Big Nancy Sinatra if anyone cares to share. Did she date after Frank or did he just stop by to slip it to her a few times a year for old times sake? Did she have friends and an active social life after the divorce? What became of her?

Nancy outlived the lot of them by a good stretch.

She died only a few months ago.

^hear more about the FATE

From everything I've read about him, Sinatra was very truly portrayed on Feud, in other words, he was a skinny little guy with a rampaging ego who thought he was a tough guy.

"in Feud," I meant -- Ryan Muphy's series about Bette and Joan, that is.

One of my favourite Ava in Spain stories is her seeing Bette Davis, who she had never actually met, in the lobby of some hotel. So Ava went up to her and said 'I just wanted to let you know Miss Davis that I'm a big admirer'.

'Of course you are my dear, of course you are' Miss Davis replied.

"I'd like to hear more about the fat of Big Nancy Sinatra if anyone cares to share. "

Well.......let's just say that ol Nance was a very *close* pal of MISS BARBARA STANWYCK's.

They weren't lovers, were they r171?

R54 you left out that he was dealing with a crisis on the phone, and she also had dated his son. Though they did have several dates, though according to her they never had sex. But of course she also thought that Desi Arnaz Jr. was her son's (Sean Astin) father and it turned out that it was her second husband Michael Tell, who's the father those she claimed they never had sex. Manic depression can sure play with your mind 😢

Bump

Big Nancy was a staunch Catholic and probably considered Frank her spiritual husband, and likely stayed faithful to her marital vows. She never remarried, rarely dated, and according to her children, she may have hooked up with their dad between his other marriages.

I thought I read something that she had a long term relationship with someone famous. I think it was Ross Hunter the director.

R176, Big Nancy was not Ross Hunter's type.

R176 I believe Ross Hunter was gay.

I actually am also intrigued what the effect on Frank Sinatra was of his relationship and subsequent break up with Lauren Bacall was? I do not think his biographers have delved into it all that much yet I believe they were engaged at one point?

R144 & R147 Another big slap in the face was that after Giancana handed them Chicago votes on a platter, Bobby as Attorney General decided to make cleaning up organized crime his main target in office.

I think she's the most beautiful of film stars.

r181, I don't know if I imagined this or I really saw it, but I think Larry King asked Elizabeth Taylor who was the most beautiful woman she ever saw in Hollywood, and she answered "Ava Gardner."

Frank handsome? Ha. Only in the way most guys with horse cock look pretty good when they are gagging and fucking you with it.