Rudolph Valentino

He had such a great body for his day, and such a great face for any era. He had one of the most ebautiful faces in movie history.

How did he really die?

[quote]The handsomest and most influential male heartthrob ever on the screen, and yet we rarely discuss him.

Well he’s been dead for over 90 years. How much do you expect we would be talking about him?

What’s the average age on DL these days? 400? 450?

My grandmother was in the crowd outside Frank E. Campbell Funeral Home when Valentino was lying in state inside. She said that people were fainting in the street, police everywhere, pandemonium. 60 years later she could still recall that scene like it was yesterday. She was 18 years old at the time.

Fucking please.

I had sex with Rudolph in the ramble and the club baths. In his ass. I also fucked him off the coast of the Atlantic all summer in his ass.

R1 He really died of a perforated ulcer which turned into peritonitis. Just the other day, by chance, I watched an episode of this old series called Hollywood narrated by James Mason and they actually had an interview with his brother as an old man, he said the hospital waited too long to do the surgery because he was famous and so they wanted to wait for a higher level surgeon, it was the weekend and the surgeon wasn't available until I think it was a Sunday night(I could be wrong about that) so they couldn't be blamed for messing it up if he died but in the end the waiting is probably one of things that killed him. His brother said there were a lot of misconceptions like their family like while they weren't rich, they weren't poor either, they were middle class, things like that.

Also he probably wasn't gay - the guy who most famously claimed to have had sex with him was later proven to have been nowhere near the location where Valentino was at the time the alleged activity took place.

I saw the Son of the Sheik not long ago on TCM - I liked it better than the original, he played a duel role in it, the original Sheik(now older and settled) and his son. He was good, you could tell he'd gained more acting experience by then. He was definitely a beautiful man.

He recorded two songs, but they were never released during his lifetime because his pronunciation of English and Spanish in them is so poor.

[quote] I had sex with Rudolph in the ramble and the club baths. In his ass. I also fucked him off the coast of the Atlantic all summer in his ass.

You must have been really something back in your day, Senator McConnell.

[quote]He really died of a perforated ulcer which turned into peritonitis.

It's easy to forget how limited medical treatment was as recently as the '20s and '30s . Calvin Coolidge's son died of sepsis a week after he got a blister on his toe while playing tennis. Jean Harlow died of kidney disease that worsened gradually over time after she had scarlet fever as a teenager; there were no transplants or dialysis, and she lingered in agony for days until she died.

A truly beautiful man.

^Thank you!

Dacre Montgomery should play him if they make a movie.

The "You Must Remember This" podcast fact-checks Hollywood Babylon and recently covered Valentino. You can play the podcast directly on the linked webpage (no need for iTunes or a podcast app).

You should listen if you are really interested. It goes into great biographical detail, though host Karina Longworth's enunciation can sometimes distract.

Valentino was married, twice, to lesbians, and among his final utterances was a defense of his masculinity. He died at 31.

Why was Kenneth Anger such a liar? he had great material but he couldn't just leave it be--he had to make it even more sensational and unbelievable. Half of the first "Hollywood Babylon" is just pure lies (including Anger's claim he was in an important role in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" as a child).

R7

I'm thinking they weren't release, because they were just bad.

"Why was Kenneth Anger such a liar?"

The same reasons anybody else is a liar: bitterness, jealousy, a need for self-aggrandizement.

Why do you think Datalounge trolls lie about how hot they are, about their fictional relationships with the rich and famous, their many accomplishments, the number of likes their lame posts get?

Click photo for the full show:. Very famous photo.

I've seen "The Sheik", the massive hit that was the climax of Valentino's career. It's a very odd film to modern eyes, although not because of Valentino, who was indeed beautiful and extremely charismatic. No, it's odd because leading lady Agnes Ayres is plain and dumpy by modern standards, so this beautiful man spends the whole film slavering over someone who looks like a dumpy hausfrau!

Which is probably why women went insane for the film, back in the day. It's the "Twilight" formula, show a hot man worshipping a plane Jane, and they'll buy ticket after ticket. You'd think Hollywood would make more such films, they can be so profitable and quality isn't important.

R18

Sad bit about Agnes:

First, she shot to fame by sleeping w/the founder of Paramount....

[quote]Ayres' career began to gain momentum when Paramount Pictures founder Jesse Lasky began to take an interest in her. Lasky gave her a starring role in the Civil War drama Held by the Enemy (1920), and also lobbied for parts for her in several Cecil B. DeMille productions.[2] It was during this time that Ayres married, and quickly divorced, Captain Frank P. Schuker, an army officer whom she had wed during World War I. She also began a romance with Lasky.[3]

[quote] In 1921, Ayres shot to stardom when she was cast as Lady Diana Mayo, an English heiress opposite "Latin lover" Rudolph Valentino in The Sheik. Ayres later reprised her role as Lady Diana in the 1926 sequel Son of the Sheik. Following the release of The Sheik, she went on to have major roles in many other films including The Affairs of Anatol (1921) starring Wallace Reid, Forbidden Fruit (1921), and Cecil B. DeMille's epic The Ten Commandments (1923).

[quote] By 1923, Ayres' career began to wane following the end of her relationship with Jesse Lasky. She married Mexican diplomat S. Manuel Reachi in 1924. The couple had a daughter before divorcing in 1927.[4][5][6]

[quote] In 1929, Ayres lost her fortune and real estate holdings in the Wall Street Crash of 1929.[1] That same year, she also appeared in her last major role in The Donovan Affair, starring Jack Holt. To earn money, she left acting and played the vaudeville circuit. She returned to acting in 1936, confident that she could make a comeback. Unable to secure starring roles and somewhat overweight, Ayres appeared in mostly uncredited bit parts and finally retired from acting for good in 1937.

[quote] After her retirement, Ayres became despondent and was eventually committed to a sanatorium. She also lost custody of her daughter to Reachi, in 1939.[4]

[quote] She died from a cerebral hemorrhage on Christmas Day, December 25, 1940, at her home in Hollywood, California, at the age of 42; she had been ill for several weeks.

"The Sheik" was a hit, but the truly massive hit was its sequel, "The Son of the Sheik," made just a few years later, which cleared twice as much. It was Valentino's last film, and his biggest hit.

Here he is singing, in the only existing recording of his voice. He had a nice voice but a really thick accent so his career would probably be over once the talkies took over, had he lived long enough.

Nobody likes the outrageous VPL dick pic posted at R217 above?

The thumbnail cut the lower portion of the pic and I didn't read the poster's note that you have to enlarge it, but I see it now...YOWZA!

But to be honest, he was a shrimp and even small or medium cocks tend to look huge on short guys.

r21, meet r7.

Was Valentino fluent in English?

He was riddled with syphilis and infected most of early Hollywood.

But there was no cure back then, r26! Just those horrible mercury based treatments. Show me his dick again!

Years ago, a friend and I visited Valentino's crypt at the Hollywood Forever cemetery. We took several pictures of the crypt, and ones of us standing in front of it with my friend's digital camera. None of the pictures were clear, they were all very blurry. All of the other pictures we took that day were fine. We had no idea why.

[quote]he played a duel role in it

Swords or pistols?

I had a lover in Paris who was a dead ringer for Valentino. Like Valentino, he was French-Italian and had a mysterious vibe. He was not an easy lover. He was prickly, not romantic, and chain smoked. He had a 24 cm cock, beautiful like a sculptor had designed it. He didn't know he was the most gorgeous, fashions having changed over time. My friends didn't think he was that handsome.

OP, read Irving Schulman's 'Valentino', also Pola Negri's 'Memories of a Star' and I think Gloria Swanson's 'Swanson on Swanson' had some Rudy bits.

[quote] We took several pictures of the crypt, and ones of us standing in front of it with my friend's digital camera. None of the pictures were clear, they were all very blurry. All of the other pictures we took that day were fine. We had no idea why.

Obviously, it was a g-g-g-g-g-ghost!

Valentino? More like Valenqueeno!

Rudolph Valentino is a character in Tim Powers' time-travel novel [italic]Medusa's Web[/italic] as are his second wife Natacha Rambova and her rumored lover, Alla Nazimova.

He was the first male star in the motion-picture industry. And that made him the first male commercial celebrity to be worshipped for his sexiness rather than for any inherent talent.

He was Continental; British people think that Continental men are sex-fiends so he was was the first man that women were allowed to treat as a sex-object. There were 35000 women in his Fan Club in my city 15 years after his death!!

(I personally don't find him attractive. He appeared in Mills & Boon nonsense. He was no more handsome than Cesar Romeo or yucky Anthony Quinn.)

I always found him appealing in this old fuzzy clip. Am I weird?

r23 he wasn't a shrimp he was 5 ft 11, even if he added a couple inches to his height he still wasn't a shrimp and it's believable he was 5'10 or 11, when you look at pics of him in groups he generally doesn't look like a short guy

r36 probably not weird, that's the film that made him a star and that tango scene in particular is the famous one from it.

Valentino was first and foremost a dancer. A dancer for money yes but he truly loved to dance. Acting no so much. He moved gracefully on screen when most American leading men were stiff wax works.

Wow, R36, that's Ted Cruz at 1:23 . He's older than I thought.

I’ve seen Son of the Sheik a few times - there’s an old country movie theatre here in Pomona, Queensland (Oz) called The Majestic - that’s been screening movies since the silent era - and still does. It’s changed ownership the last few years and changed the way they do things. But it’s previous owners had weekly screenings - accompanied by a piano player! - and really encouraged audience feedback and participation like they did bavk then. It was a lot of fun! But outside of festivals - they just keep screening Son of the Sheik over and over - and over!

Valentino did really have screen charisma though - and those photos various people posted are great! He really wouldn’t look out of place on Cocky Boys or Chaosmen or somewhere today. Wonderful physique! Phwoar!

r40 that theatre sounds like a lot of fun. I wish we had one where I live.

R40 - it was great! Went to a few of their silent festival weekends years ago. Really loved the movies and began to get a real appreciation for them and understand why they were so popular. They had faces then... ;)

Fcuk you queers are ancient.

Oh so annoying is r42 and adds noting at al but I guess that is what you are trying to be a pointless void.

R3 - my grandmother also talked about lining up tp see Valentino laid out at Campbell’s. She grew up in Hell’s Kitchen and was around 19 at the time.

R6 - that was an episode of “Hollywood - a celebration of silent film” an excellent British documentary series made by film historian Kevin Brownlow. It was shot in the late 70’s when many veterans of the silent era we’re still alive. There are 13 episodes and it is well worth watching. It seems to come and go on YouTube.

[quote]He was the first male star in the motion-picture industry.

Not true at all. Not true.

[quote]And that made him the first male commercial celebrity to be worshipped for his sexiness rather than for any inherent talent.

Nope.

It is true he was one of the first superstars, based on his perceived sexuality, but Douglas Fairbanks, Joe Bonano, and Wallace Reid would all disagree with you.

Silent film contemporary George O'Brien:

I've never cared about Valentino and don't really know that much about him. I've no idea if he was gay or not but I don't really find it that odd if coming off as masculine was important to him. Movie stars at the time had to wear clown-looking make-up which probably made them look like total fools on the set. Since he was latino I could totally see him being embarrassed about that as well. Not saying he was obviously, maybe he loved it or didn't give a damn. We have male stars managing to hide their sexuality in 2018 so it's practically impossible to say now what truly happened 100 years ago.

Here's Norman Rockwell's painting of Gary Cooper on the set of The Texan.

R47 Valentino was not Latino. He was Italian.

R45 Fairbanks wasn't sexy; he may have been athletic and gone shirtless occasionally but his head looked like Leo Carillo's

He was hardly the "handsomest" man of his day.

[quote]He had such a great body for his day,

That means it sucks. Whenever you have to qualify something, it's never the thing that precedes said qualification.

Young Gary Cooper was divine...

r50? Just stop, you miserable bitter old thing. Valentino certainly had a beautiful body.

Gary Cooper was one of the most beautiful men to ever grace Hollywood.

"And that made him the first male commercial celebrity to be worshipped for his sexiness rather than for any inherent talent."

No, it's true. Hollywood before 1920 was allergic to sexiness, all heroes and heroines were presented as innocent and virginal. About the only actor or actress before Valentino who was presented as sexy was Theda "The Vamp" Bara, who was presented as a villainess. Wasn't Valentino initially presented as a villain or as a "Mr. Wrong" character? Certainly his character in "the Sheik" was a horrible foreign bad man who reformed during the film. I don't think the studios intended to create a male sex symbol, because once he'd hit big with "The Sheik" they had no idea what to do with him and he had several years of flops until "Son of the Sheik".

R46 'Joe Bonano' can't have been much of a 'superstar' if I can't find him on Google.

Sex symbol....Hell years before that whop fruit Vasalineo I made your great grandma's bloomers wet and I corn holed that wet back pansy Navarro .

[R46] Valentino's time as star sex-object preceded that of George O'Brien.

There were no scenes of mass grief when George O'Brien died.

Everyone mentions the "Son of the Sheik" but that was the last one before his death.

All his film are unwatchable.

Flickery and silly.

Mother of all that is holy, that picture of Gary Cooper above!

Did Scotty Bowers have sex with Valentino?

I want to know if that (almost) nude photo at R46 was one of those dirty postcards you bought at filthy tobacconists.

Cooper was divine. Unlike many silent-era stars who would not be considered anything special today (like Valentino), Gary Cooper is still gorgeous to modern eyes.

R62 The divine Cooper deserves his own thread. Start it, R62!

Valentino would still be considered attractive today.

Yes, millennials would go for his skinny hips and feyness.

I think George has a contemporary look about him in his old photos

Alas, I cannot, R63, as I don't have thread-starting rights. If anyone wants to start one about the divine Mr. Cooper, though, I'd contribute!

That tango from The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse created a sensation in 1921 that's unimaginable today. Americans had never seen dancing like that before, where men and women grinded (ground?) their groins into each other as they slithered around the floor.

I think one of the reasons Valentino doesn't appear very attractive or sexy to many of us now is that he was always pomaded up in all his photos, even the more casual ones. He never seemed to allow himself to look casual and at ease. It was just not the timeless look you see in many of Gary Cooper and George O'Brien's photos.

Pretty blah body .. not even a second glance these days

Gary Cooper lost his looks early.

Gary was ALL man!

Wasn't Cooper bisexual?

Valentino was a looker, and onscreen he had charisma and sexual magnetism out the wazoo. Which nobody in Hollywood knew how to use, including Valentino, but it was there.

Maybe I'll post some film clips later.

It's my understanding that he didn't discriminate if somebody wanted to chow down on it, r73.

I love so many of the vintage Golden Age and Silent film stars but Valentino's beauty/charisma has always escaped me. Please show me the way, r74. I'm really interested.

I feel the same way R76 but I highly recommend Rex Ingram's The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. One of the great silents and Valentino is wonderful in it.

You do get a sense in the context of the film how he could have stunned audiences and how electrifying the tango sequence was..

R9 I thought that her death was due to her husband Paul Bern (who had infantile genitalia) beating her on their wedding night. Here is more about how she died. Her mother was a Christian Scientist and didn't want Jean to see doctors.

Gary Cooper was gorgeous...sigh...

R58 I thought The Eagle was pretty good. The original Sheik wasn't bad either, I just preferred the sequel.

Rudolph would be an InstaHo now.

well I read the david bret biography of Valentino and it was crammed full of outlandish stuff. My hunch is he was mostly gay but given it was the 20 s ....because he liked sports and dogs and horses and fast cars somehow he didnt equate almost exclusively sleeping with men as being gay. So because he didnt conform to the sterotype I think it caused him some problems/confusion. I found him to be stunningly attractive and in some of his photos he is just smoking........Incredible face and a killer bod back when those things werent as common.

As an aside, I got to see one of his period costumes that he wore in Monsieur Beaucaire (1924)---a very beautifully sewn pale blue 18th century-styled silk jacket, pale blue --and it was dinky, quite tiny and it was all padded besides. I find it hard to believe he was 5'11' , R37. More like 5'5" and skinny as fuck. Wiki says 5'8" but I say shorter.

And as for the young Gary Cooper, I'd fuck his brains out!

Cooper with his dewy lips and skinny legs deserves his own thread!

Does anybody still get ulcers? What killed him would be so easily treatable today.

R70 here, blinding you with my perfection.

No one noticed my mustaches! Why?

Lift that wood!

Poor Rudy.

An ANGEL!

Is he free Saturday night? I'm casting with some friends.

Valentio & 6'1"in Jack Dempsey

Valentino with natural hair. By the time of his death he was losing his hair quickly. He wore a toupe to cover his bald spot. The doctors gave it to his wife when he died.

If Jack Dempsey was 6'1", Valentino looked like he was about 5'7".

I like Jean Harlow and her work, and I feel for her, but did people really consider her beautiful? I've never seen it. In fact, she didn't have a very attractive face at all. Was it just the hair and the body, plus her talent and persona? Usually big female movie stars in those days were surpassingly beautiful.

I've never found Jean Harlow beautiful either. I think it was the platinum hair, the gowns and the way she was lit and photographed. Her face was actually kind of plain.

He was 5.8 and a little short in the leg. He was attractive but I doubt his looks would have lasted much longer. He died at 31 and his face already starting looking sort of ordinary. He was an amazing superstar Maybe the first. And I think this is what he will be remembered for. Motion pictures were new - mass communication had changed - and it all came together in an overwhelming way.

Every generation since has had a few huge superstars. Valentino was the superstar of his time.

Mary Pickford was the first superstar. She had millions of fans worldwide before World War I. And her husband Douglas Fairbanks was a superstar before Valentino as well. If their careers don't seem as sensational, it was really only because they didn't die prematurely.....that definitely paid into the Valentino legend, much as James Dean's early and unexpected death did.

For that matter, Rudy wasn't even the first sex symbol. That would be Theda Bara, for whom the term "vamp" was invented and whose career was over before Rudy even got started.

I wonder why Hollywood never made films about Pickford and Fairbanks and especially Theda Bara (whose midwest Jewish origins were so at odds with her image)?

Doug jr was way hotter than Rudy and Doug Sr.

British Pathe News title card says Hollywood giants led the procession. I see Sam Goldwyn, Louis B. Mayer, tan man Douglas Fairbanks and Charlie Chaplin. Are other giants in this clip identifiable?

DL's very own Joan Crawford's first husband!! Imagine divorcing that to marry Franchot Tone.

You, R96, and R46 must be the same person because you insist that Fairbanks preceded Valentino.

It you look at the dates you will see that Valentino preceded Fairbanks.

R96 Fairbanks Jnr was much prettier than his father but he smoked too much and became wrinkly quickly.

He was still prettier than frog-faced, flat-nosed Franchot.

[quote] He died at 31 and his face already starting looking sort of ordinary.

No.

Douglas Fairbanks Sr. starred in films throughout the teens though his first really huge hit was The Mark of Zorro made in 1920, a year before The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which was Valentino's first film (and he was not originally top-billed as he played a supporting role).

in 1919, Fairbanks was one of the four founders (with Pickford, Chaplin and DW Griffith) of United Artists, a couple of years before anyone had heard of Rudolph Valentino.

Yes, they were contemporaries as Fairbanks continued to act and some of his greatest hits throughout the 1920s.

That article about Jean Harlow is ludicrous. We now know that Bern was murdered probably by his ex and that the note was from a totally different time and had nothing to do with his sexual prowess. And Harlow did see a doctor eventually, and her disease would still have killed her even if they had caught it earlier.

He's not the most handsome screen star by a long shot.

Tyrone Power was better looking than him ( and Tyrone Power isnt THAT fine).

But Valentino is a very fascinating person in history.

I wonder what would've happened to Valentino had he lived. His persona went out of fashion in the 30s when he-men like Clark Gable and James Cagney became the big male box office stars. Valentino's image became quite passe in that decade. Perhaps his career would've declined like his contemporary Ramon Navarro's did.

R106 I'm going to guess that his accent would also have done him in, as it did many other stars who were foreign born. I have no idea of how he sounded.

[quote] I have no idea of how he sounded.

if only two different people above had posted recording of what he sounded like, then you might know! Oh well.

r108 = snarky asshole

Yes, he had a thick Italian accent that wouldn't have done him any favors in the sound era.

Fun thread, bitches. Keep it coming. I don't know much about him and this is fascinating.

His career probably would have suffered when sound film came in and the macho guys became the big stars in the early 30. Offhand, I can't think of one male star from the silent era who retained their popularity into the 1930s, only a handful of women from the silent era were able to successfully transition. Norma Shearer, Greta Garbo and Joan Crawford were the only stars who come to mind. Was there anyone else?

Marie Dressler made the transition, won an Oscar. And then promptly died.

John Barrymore also made the transition and drank himself to death.

Rin-Tin-Tin

I've always understood that with the advent of Talkies. audiences really wanted new stars to go with the new medium. They weren't particularly invested in their old favorites having any success.

They didn't have the patience for foreign-born stars whose accents weren't really as bad as made out. The audiences wanted fresh young American stars. Other than Garbo, who really was an anomaly, the only foreign born star with an accent to have great success in the early Talkies was Marlene Dietrich, who was packaged extremely carefully by her mentor/director Joseph von Sternberg and Paramount.

Valentino wouldn't have stood a chance. Just think of him acting in scenes with Gable or Cagney or even with Crawford and Shearer. He would only be cast as a cheap Italian or Latin gigolo. Charles Boyer eventually took over his place in Hollywood by the late 1930s but his image and lovemaking style was far more cerebral.

Well Rudy might’ve ended up like an early Ricardo Montalban (sp?) with a hot bod and sexy accent if he just owned it instead of suppressing it.

You all underestimate his sex appeal at the time. He WAS sex for women. He was embodied passion and lovemaking in a way that made straight men very, very nervous and left them feeling inadequate, hence all the powder puff accusations. Rudy was very Euro or Italian with the jewelry and wardrobe and not at all effeminate according to standards outside of American culture. Navarro’s career emerged in an attempt to fill that gap when he died.

Rudy WAS, by all accounts, a man’s man. He had incredible strength and fitness, was very outdoorsy, worked on cars, an excellent boxer, and expert rider. His personal life was a wreck and he often reflected on how the so-called great lover never had a woman who loved him back. He started his screen career playing heavies and villains. Remember, ethnicity back then was equated dangerous and exotic. Read Dark Lover.

Finally, as a silent actor, he was superb. Chaplin himself said Rudy had the most fascinating, expressive face on screen—which was everything for silent pictures, especially by the time of Son of the Shiekh when lingering close ups became all the rage.

Y’all underestimate him.

Btw, anyone seen Nureyev’s film version of Valentino? I’m dying to.

Sorry, but Nureyev seemed then and still now like ludicrous miscasting.

most handsome......handsomest is improper usage......

"The words movie star meant a WOMAN... except Valentino, whose appeal was very feminine." - Quentin Crisp

[quote] Other than Garbo, who really was an anomaly, the only foreign born star with an accent to have great success in the early Talkies was Marlene Dietrich

What about Maurie Chevalier?

*Maurice

Valentino was worried about his masculinity because men and some members of the press questioned his masculinity. My deceased mother remembered her grandfather and father laughing about him being gay, though not the term they used. And don't believe anything Pola Negri wrote about him. Even in the early 70s insiders did not believe they were involved in a sexual affair. In fact, flinging her body on his casket and claiming such ended her career in Hollywood. Plus, she was a lesbian. She eventually moved to my hometown, San Antonio, and lived there for decades. With her girlfriend. It's believed she was just trying to get publicity. The person up thread is correct. The biggest and highest paid silent film star was Pickford. Chaplin in much later years would try to make the claim he was the highest paid but he wasn't. On trips and publicity tours for their newly formed United Artists, Chaplin and Fairbanks would have to hold Mary over their heads to protect her from the throngs of fans trying to get to her.

R112 The only other male I can think of is Ronald Colman and he that wonderful voice.

Loretta Young and Mary Astor come to mind, r122.

^for r112...

Except Loretta Young was not a star of silent films, even though she acted in them.

However, Janet Gaynor, who was a huge star of the Silents did make the transition to Talkies successfully.

"Why was Kenneth Anger such a liar? he had great material but he couldn't just leave it be--he had to make it even more sensational and unbelievable."

Sensationalism sells. And people fall for it. Just ask Scotty Bowers.

Nobody ever went broke telling fabulous lies.

Gregory Peck and Marlon Brando are Cooper's match although Cooper predates them.

Valentino wasn't gay but it didn't help that that he wore jewelry and was frequently foppishly costumed and heavily made up in his movies. And there was also his two ball busting lesbian wives. He sure didn't deserve the scorn heaped on him by some editorialist who actually referred to him a being a "pink powder puff." On his deathbed, suffering and stoically bearing great pain, he supposedly told his doctors "and now, do I act like a pink powder puff?'

"Norma Shearer, Greta Garbo and Joan Crawford were the only stars who come to mind. Was there anyone else?"

Cher.

There is a “Latin Lover” type in the Astaire / Rogers “Top Hat” 1935 - “Alberto Beddini” played by Erik Rhodes. With a heavy Italian accent, showy mannerisms and an inflated ego he is a ridiculous figure of good natured ridicule for both the other characters and the audience.

He is also a fashion designer who’s homosexuality is obvious to everyone except perhaps himself. Now this is only one film, and a comedy, but it does show how far the stock of the Valentino character type had fallen in the ten years after his death.

If he had lived, except for being a bit too old, Valentino certainly had all the attributes to play Beddini - but he never could have pulled it off. Changing taste career would have killed his career by the 30’s as several others have discussed above.

"Offhand, I can't think of one male star from the silent era who retained their popularity into the 1930s"

Didn't Ronald Colman start in silent? He certainly stayed popular through the 1930s and 1940s. And for the ladies, Janet Gaynor, Joan Crawford, and Greta Garbo were all silent movie stars who made a successful transition to sound.

As for Valentino, if he'd lived, he'd have had a hard time. His accent would have limited the roles he would have been offered, if he'd kept working in the 1930s it probably would have been in villain and "Mr. Wrong" roles. Unless he got really lucky and managed to get into musicals, but 1930s musicals mostly starred all-American kids. But more likely he would have just fallen away from Hollywood as tastes changed and Latin Lovers went out of style, and his accent would have been a problem in theater as well. So maybe Vaudeville, but Vaudeville died in the thirties as well. Maybe he was lucky to go when he did.

Okay, here's a clip from "The Sheik", the big groundbreaking film.

If you want to try to see it through the eyes of a twenties filmgoer, remember that filmic heroes just weren't sexy before this. Movie heroes were all-American boys who were so pure and honorable they didn't know how to kiss a girl, and even if they got vamped by a bad girl they always dumped her and went back to the heroine and held her hand as he asked her to be his virgin bride. And then Valentino came along, and here for the first time in American cinema here's a man who is obviously eager to fuck and suggestively removing his robes, because he knows damn well he's sexy and that no heterosexual woman could take her eyes off of him. He was the first actor with a seriously sexual presence, although thankfully not the last.

Son of the Sheik, his last film. He has duel role, as he plays his father in a couple of scenes too and they got the actress from The Sheik back to play his mother.

Son of Sheik opposite Vilma Banky was Valentino's best film. Guess it took lesbians to bring out his carnality.

[quote]Offhand, I can't think of one male star from the silent era who retained their popularity into the 1930s

John Barrymore

William Powell

Laurel and Hardy

Douglas Fairbanks, Jr.

It's hard to believe it now because he was so strange looking, but George Arliss was a huge star in both silent pictures and in sound films in the 30s. He was considered a great actor.

R133 Most silent movies are painful to watch.

Rudolph's 'face-acting' at 1.48 in that clip reminded me of Dudley pursuing Ting-Tog.

There were a few second-tier silent film actors who made the transition to sound, but no leading man types. No male equivalents of Garbo, Shearer or Crawford.

Gary Cooper became a star in the silent era. And Ramon Navarro was a huge star in both silents and talkies. He had a good 5 years as a star during the sound era.

Valentino was said to have taught Nijinsky to tango. Here is Nureyev reenacting the scene in the movie Valentino. I love seeing 2 men dance tango together.

Ramon Novarro was a good actor and had a lovely tenor singing voice (better singer than Valentino as you can hear below). But by 1935 he was doing B pictures. I agree, Valentino would have have been facing huge obstacles trying to adapt to the sound era in the 1930’s. He approaching forty when sound came in. He had an accent. The studios used sound as an excuse to unload the old silent stars who had huge contracts signed before the Wall Street crash of 1929. The studios could get stage actors with trained voices who could handle dialogue cheaper. There was nothing wrong with Gloria Swanson’s singing voice (and she also could sing too) but her star career declined until “Sunset Boulevard “.

^ Would have been approaching forty in 1929 - if he had lived.

It was said that Louis B Mayer deliberately messed with the audio on John Gilbert's first sound film, changing the pitch of his voice, just to get rid of him. Gilbert was a big silent star, but his career was severely damaged after his first sound film.

r134 He has duel role,

See R29.

Seems like a good place to throw this in.....

Ladies and gentlemen, at R141 you have the only scene from the "Valentino" movie starring DL fave Rudolf Nureyev that's worth watching!

Thank you, R141.

He had a stank sleeve!

R99, Franchot was rumored to be a big boy. Also came from a classy family. Also got beaten into a week long coma by Tom Neal, over nymphette Barbara Payton.

It's a tribute to Joan Crawford's sheer naked ambition that she managed to be a bigger star in the 30s than she was in the 20s. The ultimate flapper, she never should have survived the transition to sound.

R141 a real treat. Thanx.

R141 I haven't seen that embarrassing movie since it opened.

Leslie Caron and the female star were consciously hired because they had simian mouths to take attention from Rudy's simian mouth.

Every guy should be that simian.

Audiences liked the sound of Joan Crawford’s voice; it suited her persona. When Joan first heard her recorded voice she said “That’s not me! That’s a man.” Joan was very smart, and she gradually changed her “flapper” image, for the 1930s sound films. She had the amazing ability to reinvent her star image.

Yes, that's why Joan lasted so long, into the 1960s. She reinvented her look and her image with each decade.

1920s -The Perfect Flapper

1930s - Shop Girl Transformed into Mannequin

1940s - Film Noir Dame

1950s - The Wealthy (and Sexy) Older Woman

1960s - The Great Lady as Gargoyle

Gloria Swanson's career as a major star spanned almost 15 years before the Talkies arrived and she had married or fucked everyone from Wallace Beery to Joseph Kennedy to Prince Mdivani. Not too bad for a Hollywood leading lady.

She was done by the 1930s.

R156! Must you use that ugly f*** word?!

Gloria Swanson was not done by the '30s. O.K., maybe her major film career, but until the end she was regarded as a (once) major movie star and she kept current and wasn't considered a faded star of the past.

She was in a pic, iirc, with Rudy--"Beyond the Rocks"?

R159 Beyond the Rocks was a legendary lost Valentino/Swanson film. A print was finally found and restored. silent film buffs eagerly awaited a chance to see a film that hadn't been seen for 70 years. What a stinker. Some times lost is better.

But he's adorable in it.

Gloria Swanson was big. It's the pictures that got small.

"It was said that Louis B Mayer deliberately messed with the audio on John Gilbert's first sound film, changing the pitch of his voice, just to get rid of him."

I've heard Gilbert's voice in talkies, although I didn't hear his voice in "His Glorious Night", the movie that supposedly ruined him. The movie itself was said to be bad; the dialogue was terrible ("I love you! Desperately"). He really didn't have a very good voice. It was high (although not that high) and really didn't didn't go with his leading man looks. I think he just didn't have enough talent to be a success in talking pictures.

He's wonderful in preCode "Downstairs" as an amoral climber. Died of a heart attack at 35, having been a heavy drinker, but for how long I don't know.. I think the story is that Mayer had slurred Garbo and Gilbert socked him, so...

Gilbert was also good in his last movie, "The Captain Hates the Sea." He had learned to lower his voice and he was a good actor, especially playing heels/bounders.

R160 But he has a wonderful way of moving. He's very feline.

Gilbert had been a stage actor and his voice was fine. But it sounded very cultured, more like Ronald Colman. Not what you'd imagine coming from the "all American boy."

Rudy looks handsomer than I've ever seen him in that clip from the lost Silent. Gloria looks old enough to be his mother.

What a dull movie!

The few stars that did make the transition to Talkies....it's really remarkable., as it would have been just as easy to replace them with fresh new blood.

I guess Norma got a pass because she was married to producer Irving Thalberg, who protected and shepherded her career? And perhaps Joan wasn't quite so established yet that the public wasn't ready to let her go? And Garbo was just too big of a star. Interesting that all 3 ladies were at MGM, which, I believe, was the last studio to completely convert to sound.

Pity, the poor Talmadge sisters.

Didn't they both turn into drunks and druggies r170?

One of them was married to Buster Keaton for a while.

Silent movie stars are so fascinating. They really did her "faces", like Norma Desmond said. Such incredible faces.

IMO, the only actor to approach the allure of Cooper was Newman, who eclipsed him...

R173 The silent film’ 'face-acting' looks pretty ludicrous nowadays because the photography was so primitive.

Gloria Swanson's thick face-paint in R162 looks like a dead clown's.

Even Greta Garbo (who I adore) made some very rudimentary 'face-acting' which Cukor tried to tone down and make less ludicrous when she tried to make talking pictures.

R175, I simply meant that they had unforgettable faces. I wasn't referring to their acting.

Due to the sodium vapor arch lights actors with dark eyes like Valentino photographed very well. Actors with light eyes looked like white walkers.

Blue-sensitive film A big part of the problem with using make-up for the screen was the film stock. Until the 1920s, most black and white motion pictures were made with blue-sensitive film. The film stock was sensitive to the blue-violet end of the visible spectrum but insensitive to the yellow-red end, which meant that it registered reds and yellows as black and light blues as white. Some orthochromatic film was also used. This was very sensitive to violet light, markedly sensitive to blue and ultra-violet, much less sensitive to green and yellow light, and insensitive to red. The problems created by blue-sensitive film included blonde hair photographing too dark, light-blue eyes photographing nearly white, and cloudy skies filming flat white. Moreover, as the full spectrum was not captured, gray-scale tonal differences were limited, resulting in pictures with a higher contrast than was visible with the naked eye. This meant that noticeable demarcations (lines) would sometimes appear on film where the naked eye only saw a gradual blend. Blue-sensitive film renders red as black, so unmade-up faces looked darker on the screen than they were in reality and any unevenness in the complexion made faces look dirty. Many early film actors, particularly those that came from the stage, responded to these problems by covering their face with heavy make-up, giving them a look that belonged more on a mortician’s slab than a movie set. The practice was so common that it became almost a convention in early silent films to make the faces of heroes and heroines white while the rest of the cast, who were less made-up, looked darker. Lighting A second problem was lighting. To get sufficient light and keep costs down, early silent films were filmed in daylight, either on open stages or on location. As the movie industry developed and became more prosperous, artificial lights were introduced – first to supplement the natural light and then to replace it altogether. This freed filming from the vagaries of weather and, in the long run, gave cinematographers greater control over how their movies looked on screen. Early film studios did not use incandescent lights of the sort used on theatre stages as they had a low actinicity (the proportion of the light which is captured on the film stock) on blue-sensitive film. Instead they relied on mercury-vapour and/or carbon-arc lights. The Cooper-Hewitt mercury-vapour lamps used in American film studios produced a soft, blueish-green light that was ideal for blue-sensitive film but made everything looked unnatural on the set. Carbon-arc lamps produced a brighter, whiter light but the light was harder and the lamps were noisy and spluttery. Early open arcs also produced arc-light dust which irritated the actor’s eyes when it got into them. Later closed arc lamps – often called ‘Klieglights’ in the United States after the Kliegl company, a major supplier – did not have this problem. However, they still caused eye problems due to the unshielded ultra-violet light they produced – the so-called ‘Klieg eye’ (actinic conjunctivitis).

"Hollywood" episode about Valentino and Swanson

R178 I thinks that's interesting. I say the technology of cinematography was so important in the kinds of films made.

I note that 'noir' films started in the 40s when the better photography could cope with low-lit scenes and 'noir' films fell out of fashion in the 50s when the better films were done in color.

Fascinating R178. I read somewhere the cliche of movie stars wearing sunglasses indoors was started due to eye damage from the early kleig lights.

I've been looking at YouTube clips and he is sensational. In "A Society Sensation" (1918) there's a sequence where he's on the beach and is lithe and puppyish and unaffected. That scene is also viewable as an entity. He had It.

I saw Four Horseman of the Apocalypse last year with live musical accompaniment and it's quite well done, though you really do have to approach a silent film as if it's an entirely different medium than contemporary film. Valentino was terrific and it was easy to see why he became such a huge star.

Rudolph died at Polyclinic Hospital on 50th Street between Eighth and Ninth Avenues, where I was born. Now condos.

The pic at R179 makes me wonder if Valentino could have morphed into von Stronheim territory if he had lived. Wise, menacing forreigner, but not ridiculous, the accent being part of the eery feeling.

This is a very entertaining (and educating !) thread.

I read in the Louise Brooks biography that the very early movie stars--think 1900-1915ish--were all teenagers because the early film lights were so harsh, anyone over the age of 20 looked like death. They finally learned lighting tricks like putting gauze over the camera lens, and voila! Adult stars.

My dad was brought to Polyclinic in the 40s after he was hit by a car playing stick ball in Hell’s Kitchen. We would park across the street in the lot on the site if the old Garden - Worldwide Plaza today - and he’d always point it out. My grandparents took me to my first circus in the old Garden right before it was torn down. And now the circus is no more.

Add it to the list, r187.

R178 - a related phenomena is that films that pushed first into very new technology were often not very good - since everyone in set is most focused on solving the tech problems everting else gets short shrift. In film school we watched “The Lights of New Youk” the “First 100% All-Talking Picture” as WB / Vitaphibe marketed it. It was really terrible - lousy dialogue and everybody waking over to where the mic was hidden and standing in a huddle. The prof pointed out that it still happened - Kubrick was obsessed with only using candlelight on “Barry Lyndon” because new faster lenses and film stock mage it possible - the cinematography is the only part of that film that is any good.

^^ Vitaphone.

"a related phenomena is that films that pushed first into very new technology were often not very good - since everyone in set is most focused on solving the tech problems everting else gets short shrift."

Hey, wasn't "Star Wars: The Phantom Menace" the first film to be shot digitally?

The footage of the crowds outside the funeral home is remarkable.

Valentino looks cute here. Reminds me of Tyrone Power.

Nobody has mentioned Cecilia Sisson.....

A little gem. Thanx!

I know that Jean Harlow wasn’t a classic beauty and all, but, she was better looking than Gloria Swanson or Theda Bara. Swanson had huge ears and an oddly shaped nose. Theda Bara was just plain and built like a ten pound sack of potatoes. Actually, Theda was ugly.

Agreed. Even for 100 years ago, taking into account differences in makeup, lighting, etc., this is not an attractive woman.

OTOH, Clara Bow was gorgeous in a cupie doll way. Loads of sex appeal.

Of the musical Normas, I thought Miss Schneider's face was the most believable as a silent film star. I wonder if they went with the red wig to steer more to a Clara Bow type.

Totally agree about Clara Bow R198. Recently saw a screening of “IT” and my god is she sexy. She also comes across as completely contemporary in her affect and mannerisms - it was quite a revelation

Very close R191. And that film stinks on ice!

In May 1999 George Lucas challenged the supremacy of the movie-making medium of film for the first time by including footage filmed with high-definition digital cameras in Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace. The digital footage blended seamlessly with the footage shot on film and he announced later that year he would film its sequels entirely on hi-def digital video.

I'd much rather hear about Clara Bow on this thread than George Lucas!

Funny how Clara Bow's enormous popularity didn't lead to thousands of American baby girls being named Clara in the 1920s and 30s. It was already an old-fashioned name in spite of Clara's fame and stayed that way. But then Lana and Ava were not popular names for baby girls in the 1940s and 50s. Ava has only recently become popular. Lana, never.

Valentino does the tango with his SPURS on!!

Very hot. Always wanted to learn the tango, but that tango. It's sexier and more earthy than most of the types I'm used to seeing.

What did Norma say to Joe about putting the tile floor in the ballroom because Valentino insisted that tile was better for the tango than hardwood?

Clara Bow had a big, honking Brooklyn accent that was grating on the ears, so she didn't do well in talkies.

Gloria Swanson wasn't beautiful, but she could photograph better than in that clip of her movie with Valentino.

They really made her look like a corpse that had been fished out of the harbor after a few days, and covered in makeup.

What was this and what print of Queen Kelly would it have been? She's so fabulous.

I heard that movie studios offered Clara Bow lucrative contracts to make talking pictures, but she was totally burned out by movie stardom and chose to retire at the age of 25. She married Rex Bell, a movie cowboy and had two sons with him and retreated from public life. But she still found no peace and suffered from chronic insomnia and anxiety attacks. Her marriage eventually failed and she became even more reclusive. At some point she went into a sanitarium and was given a lot of psychological tests to find out what was really wrong with her. The tests confirmed that she was schizophrenic. She continued to have insomnia and mental problems. She died abruptly of a heart attack while watching an old movie starring one of her former lovers (Gary Cooper, I think). She was 60 years old. She was one of the greatest silent film stars of all time. I'm surprised there's never been a biopic about her. But who could play her? No actress today could ever come close to how brilliant she was onscreen.

Gloria.....

I always thought Lauren Ambrose resembled Clara Bow.

Clara Bow was wonderful on film. She had tremendous vitality and charisma. She was a very fine actress and a gifted comedienne. Her silent films stand the test of time. She was still lovely in the early sound films, as well.

Clara had IT....

Speaking of IT...........

Let's be frank. Gloria Swanson looked like a broomstick all her life.

The world would have completely forgot about her if Billy Wilder had found Mae West adequate to play Norma.

Don't forget Marcia....I mean Kelly....I mean Berna.....

Clara Bow's story was very sad. She had severe mental illness and was in and out of institutions, her last years were spent as a recluse and she died fairly young.

Any clips from Clara's talkies? I'm curious about her speaking voice.

I love the way she wore her hair. It was so breezy and casual compared to the marcelled bob most young women wore.

I seem to recall a clip from a talkie Clara Bow did called "Call Her Savage." I didn't think anything was wrong with her voice.

Mabel Normand was really quite something. A tiny little thing, she was very athletic and was a very physical comedienne who did her own stunts. She also was a screenwriter, director and producer. She was Mack Sennett's longtime lover, but they never married. She did a lot of films with the infamous Fatty Arbuckle and was closely involved with William Desmond Taylor, the director who was mysteriously murdered. She was into cocaine but died of tuberculosis at age 37. Another fascinating silent film star who died young.

BOW SPEAKS!

Another silent film stunner: Louise Brooks.

You have to be beautiful to carry off that haircut.

She was just trying to outdo me.....

Colleen flames....

She definitely ripped off Moore's haircut, but if Louise Brooks is still considered beautiful even by modern standards. Moore, not so much.

Clara Bow made the transition to talkies just fine. She may have been from Brooklyn, but her accent suited her (with a little refining) just like Stanwyck, another Brooklyn girl. And Clara really could act. She is wonderful in both comedy and drama. Louise Brooks on the other hand, really wasn't much of an actress. She is mostly known for her 2 German films, but even she admits that Papst essentially brought out those performances. She literally does nothing in Pandora's Box, almost as if she's in a trance. But seeone of her first talkies, God's Gift to Women. She basically gets lost in the woodwork. She's in a scene with a bunch of people and one of the supporting women pops right off the screen - you don't even look at Brooks. That actress was Joan Blondell.

Agreed. Brooks was a dancer and a party girl rather than an actress. She had a distinctive look but not much acting talent to back it up. Also, she wasn't nakedly ambitious like another dancer and party girl, Joan Crawford. Unlike Joan, Brooks was lazy and unfocused, which also helped derail her film career.

So, was it that horrible rumor about Bow and the football team that ruined her film career, or was it the mental illness? Or was it both?

R219 the blonde is the doomed Thelma Todd.

Bow's mental illness is documented. Isn't that enough?

I was wondering about the timeline. Did the rumor cause a breakdown, or was the rumor tangential to her bigger mental problems?

[quote]The original Sheik wasn't bad either, I just preferred the sequel.

Please tell us about the excitement in your neighborhood before its release!

Was Blanche sweet?

R175, actually the photography in the 1920s was usually more sophisticated and the images more beautiful than the flatter photography of the sound era.

It looks crude now because the film stock deteriorated. Sometimes still photography can give a better impression of the look of the film when it opened. In one of Kevin Brownlow's books he has a gasp inducing photo of a scene from Mousier Boucaire with Valentino photographed as a silhouette outlined in candlelight against a backdrop of brightly lit courtiers. The film as it survives is completely muddy, but that photo (and others) really shows the intent and what the prints looked like when they were first struck.

"So, was it that horrible rumor about Bow and the football team that ruined her film career, or was it the mental illness? Or was it both? "

Okay, someone fill this in... in the early 30s, Bow had some sort of scandal because her PA or secretary was a nutter who turned on her and made all sorts of nasty allegations public in a court case. That's probably where the football team rumor came from.

Someone here has to know the story...

R231 could Wallace Reid?

When she played the fiddle, could Clara Bow?

After a pub crawl, was Wallace Beery?

When she cans fruit, Zasu Pitts.

Was Ford Sterling?

Was Maude Fealy?

Was Clara Kimball Young?

In her peignoir, was Norma Shearer?

Before he waxed, was Francis X. Bushman?

For his diet, was Buster Keaton?

After Viagra, is Rod LaRoque?

In his mining days, was Ronald Colman?

Mae West didn't want to play a has-been. Wyler conceived the part with her in mind.

Love Gloria....

THE first Hollywood male sex symbol was Sessue Hayakawa not Valentino.

Also: If Valentino had lived, his stardom could have transitioned into the 1930s if played correctly. Not all 1930s male stars were macho types.

George Raft actually looked a lot like Valentino ...and was a dancer too.

Watch him here in 1934 dancing the Tango. Short, slight and Latin looking. He was a prominent star during the 30s and 40s and remains an icon.

And as far as male Silent film stars transitioning to Talkies go... no one mentions Charles Farrell?

He transitioned seamlessly to Talkies. Had a huge career all through the 1930s.

Yeah, but next to RV, he disappears.

Farrell was a cutie.....

Were women 100 years ago ,complete dogs? I have yet to see a truly beautiful actress or woman from that era..

Standards of beauty change with the times, r244.....

Hmm?

This was considered a “vamp”? Nowadays this bitch would be the jolly sidekick.. she looks like a ugly man with a wig on.

Marie Doro was as beautiful as any actress today.

R248 meh l, only with her mouth closed

....

[quote]only with her mouth closed

That's a pretty dumb statement. Cosmetic dental work, caps and so forth came later.

Maude Fealy.....

Back in the 1920s, the standards of beauty were different. The most beautiful girl of the era was the one with the thinnest lips, the palest skin, the flattest chest, the roundest fact... the kind of girl who'd be considered unfortunate today.

But Louse Brooks would be considered beautiful in any era.

Julia Faye.....

R240, George Raft may have been small, dark, and a dancer like Valentino, but he wasn't hampered by a thick Italian accent, and could play gangsters and sophisticates in the genre films of the thirties. Valentino would have had a very difficult time with sound films, largely because of his accent.

That's the thing about 1920s Hollywood, it was as international as all get-out. Because there was no dialogue language didn't matter, so all sorts of foreign actors came to Hollywood to make their fortunes. The only ones to successfully transition to sound were Greta Garbo and Ramon Navarro, the rest went home. And Garbo was the last major star to make a sound film, she waited two years after sound came in to speak on film, she knew it was risky so she waited until her accent was smoothed out and she had the perfect script.

Gif me a viskey, ginger ale on the side....

R253 The question was about beauties of 100 years ago. By the time Louise Brooks came on the scene we were now in the modern era.

R255, fwiw, Raft was said to be a major Big Boy. Gave Bankhead a dose that almost killed her and required surgery. When recovering, she said to her doctor, "I hope you don't think I've learned my lesson."

[quote]Valentino would have had a very difficult time with sound films, largely because of his accent.

That's certainly true...he would have needed major voice training.

R219, a cat fight ? I sometimes forget there was a pre-code era.

Violet Hopson would have looked right at home at Woodstock.

R248, thanks. New to me, and very lovely. Something about her reminds me of fave Anabelle Sciorra. Apparently Doro was quite well read and bright.

"You have to be beautiful to carry off that haircut."

I always thought the "Louise Brooks bob (actually, it was just a version of the bob was popularized by Colleen Moore)" was an incredibly unflattering haircut. It was so severe that only a woman with a very beautiful, delicate face could pull it off. I never thought it looked very good even on Louise Brooks even though the hairdo was considered her trademark.

R239 Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Sessue Hayakawa was a Hollywood sex symbol. It reinforces my view that silent films are a completely alien culture to ours.

After all, most of us in this thread have only been able to watch short snippets of these primitive, alien films.

Theda was in desperate need of conditioner!

George Raft deserves his own appreciation thread. So fucking sexy.

If you want a good adaptation of Rudolph's life and don't mind glitter & ballyhoo, you could certainly do worse than the Takarazuka Revue musical.

Written by Koike Shuuichiro and composed by Yoshizaki Kenji VALENTINO (ヴァレンチノ) was originally staged at Bow Hall in 1986, with Mori Keaki and Mitsuki Ayu in the leads as Valentino and June Mathis (?), respectively. It was revived in 1992-93 when Mori Keaki was at her zenith as a 'top-star Otokoyaku' (breeches or 'male role' actress) in the Revue company, and again in 2002 though this run did not proceed due to the Tohoku earthquake.

The entire film of the most recent and well-known production, by Cosmos Troupe in 2011 - which made recently-retired Otokoyaku 'top-star' Yuuhi Oozora famous - is at the link (though unsubbed, I'm afraid). I'm about to rewatch it now, inspired by the thread.

R253 I just don’t find Brooks beatutiful she looked masculine and mature” and that helmet haircut was just awful.

The legendary Delilah.....

[quote]It reinforces my view that silent films are a completely alien culture to ours.

The early ones are quite primitive but check out later offerings like "The Freshman" 1925...you'll be surprised how fresh and modern and funny they can be.

Louise Brooks inspired one of the most popular perfumes of the 1980s.

If you think that all the women you see in photos from 100+ years ago aren't beautiful, it's partly because you're so used to seeing women wear makeup. Makeup wasn't considered socially acceptable until the 1920s, so except for actresses, the women you see in photos from 100+ years ago had zero makeup on - they just bit their own lips to make them redder.

If you live a middle-class lifestyle, you may have gone years without seeing a woman who has no makeup on! And of course it's so socially obligatory that no woman is ever photographed without it.

Much has been made about Louise Brooks (one of her admirers screamed "There is no Dietrich! There is no Garbo! There is only Louise Brooks!") but she wasn't much of an actress. The only roles that she's noted for (she actually made very few movies) are ones in which she played herself: a frenetic, dancing, drinking, man devouring party girl. She WAS Lulu in "Pandora's Box." But she was a stunning onscreen and in photographs. That was her gift; her face, her supremely photogenic face.

I think you nailed it.

R272 she looks a bit like Keira Knightley. Or vice versa

Charlie Farrell was wonderfully sexy but did he really make any memorable Talkies?

Dolores Costello was considered one of the most beautiful women of the Silent Era. She had what was considered a Madonna-like quality. No, not that Madonna.

She was John Barrymore's wife.

Are we just going to ignore the fact Rudy has NO PECTORAL MUSCLES? Well?

The crowd number at Judy’s funeral put Rudy’s to shame.

"The crowd number at Judy’s funeral put Rudy’s to shame."

No. An estimated 100,000 people lined the streets of Manhattan to pay their respects at his funeral. In Judy's case it was approximately 20,000.

Dark Lover by Emily Leider is an excellent well researched biography of Valentino. In it she confirms his bi-sexuality. Valentino's love affair with French actor André Daven during filming of Monsieur Beaucaire (see photo) . Daven was a tres beau actor,producer,gay confidante of many a-list silent stars. He arranged for Gloria Swanson's abortion in Paris. I've always been fascinated by these behind the scenes movers and shakers. Someone should write a bio of Daven.

I'd write a bio of Daven— if I could obtain any reliable documentary facts.

But I bet all the available documents have been well and true raked over and found unsatisfactory by professional biographers (and those muck-rakers such as Scotty Bowers and the ghastly Donald Spoto.).

I went to a book signing with Leider and chatted her up.. She said she had read letters (all in French) between Daven & Valentino following a au deux "fishing trip "they made to Florida which made it clear they were lovers. She said the Valentino family refused to let her publish them. Even though she was a respectable biographer. When Dark Lover came out the part about his bi -sexuality drove the frau Valentino fanatics (apparently they are still around) crazy. She recieved death threats. Nut's that after 80 yrs they still have some personal fetish that requires their fantasy lover to stay locked in his very old forgotten closet. The word fan is derived from fanatic for a reason. Same mind set with Bowers book. Are people in 2018 so psychologically and personally invested in who long forgotten "movie stars" were fucking that they go nuts screaming ...blasphemy! if it deviates from the yellowed press releases of Howard Strickling? How pathetic. These people must have lead sheltered lives. I've worked with actors for years. They are like everyone else only more. so. Young,horny,pretty, they fuck like rabbits. Why not.? Sure it was the same in 1924 or 1624 when actors were in the same class as whores.. In Phoneywood the more things change....

What makes the old white gays of DataLounge so determined that all good looking male film stars be fags? It's not natural.

R283 most men that do acting and theatre are fags you seacow frau!

For hundreds of years there was tradition in Southern Italy that teenage boys would have sex with older European men for money. It was called euphemistically "granting the Courtsey"'. Hords of Germann, Russian and American aristos and moguls would flock to the Bay off Naples to pay for belllo ragazzi There was no stigma attached to paid homosexual sex. for these boys. In fact their famigllias though it fantastico that the great Baron Krupp was so fond of their Nico. What fantastico gifts he gave him.! Since Nico had a girl friend and or wife and six bambini to feed ....well no harm done. It was a business. Capeesh. Valentino came from this society. Gigilo = Gay for Pay/Male Prostitute. These captains of industry would even take these boys back to their home countries as chauffeurs or valets. Valentino's first job in the states was "gardener"' to a Long Island millionaire. So the homo sex was no big deal . Bisexuality was a profitable business for bellissimo boys. What helped drive Valentino to an early grave was the accusation of Effeminacy,, of being a Pansy, a Pink Powder puff. This was an affront to his honor . Gettng a bocchino from some rich Americano had no bearing on this. There is a funny scene in the film the Happy Prince .Oscar Wilde is throwing a ragazzi only rent boy party in Napoli which perfectly illustrates this apparent contradiction in the Italiano machismo mind set.

^All true

It’s not just italians, it’s latinos also. We are horny and a holes a hole , especially for money.

Interesting, r282. I did not know that Valentino has living family members who control things.

Until material passes into the public domain, there are always going to be heirs--even if they are distant relatives--who control publication of letters, diaries, etc.

Didn't he later get into the clothing business?

Miss Dolores Costello....

^ Grandmother of Drew Barrymore..

Dolores Costello with George O'Brien

Lucky girl.

Speaking of Doloreses, didn't Dolores del Rio make a smooth transition from Silents to Talkies. She was in at least two HUGE hit Talkies, Bird of Paradise, with a strapped down and shirtless Joel McCrea, and Flying Down to Rio, the film that introduced the world to the dancing delights of Rogers and Astaire.

Dolores was from Mexico, I believe from a very wealthy family, but perhaps she didn't have an accent that impeded her?

KELT you bore me. And you're a racist.

Ziegfeld Girl and wife of Jack Pickford....

Olive Thomas

Yes, I was about to mention Dolores Del Rio, as well. Stunningly beautiful and successful transition from silents to talkies. She chose to leave Hollywood and focus on Mexican films when the Hollywood roles started to become less leading lady and more exotic stereotype.

In her early pictures because of her dark beauty Del Rio was billed as the female Valentino. George O'Brien the body beautiful of that era was a bosom chum of young Valentino. They were often workout partners a the LA Athletic Club (the Crunch gym of it's day) When Rudy was jailed for bigamy and Paramount refused too post bail it was O'Brien's dad the police chief of SFO who put up bail to spring him. O'Brien was a pall bearer at his amico's funeral. George was called a" Man's Man "by his other good buddy Spencer Tracy.

Georgie & Spence .Two Men's Men

Wasn't O'Brien bi?

I was a Ziegfeld Girl!

Spencer called George 'a Man's Man'.

I wonder what that means?

"I wonder what that means?"

It means a masculine guy who does masculine guy things and has a lot of masculine buddies. It doesn't mean he's gay, although some might see the comment in an entirely different light.

George O'Brien lived such a long time, well into the 1980s. What did he do all those years? Did he continue to act?

They were fat out of shape men with tits when they were only in their thirties, no thanks. The old stars used to wear very high waisted pants and suck in their guts a lot, even when wearing bathing trunks....not sexy.

Gary Grant was the exception, clearly he was into fitness.

R299 Spencer Tracy was obviously a weedy Catholic semi-sissy boy who couldn't compete with a real man.

George said it was OK for men to belch, fart, show off their navels and boners (which were of course censored by The Hays Code)

To answer my own question, I IMDBed George O'Brien to find that he pretty much stopped working in movies during WWII when he re-enlisted in the navy and won several medals for his heroism in the Pacific Islands.

He had been reduced to mostly starring in B westerns once the Talkies arrived. He continued to work for the navy after the war doing PR work and occasionally returned to westerns, working with John Ford, his mentor, as a stuntman.

He died in 1985. He was married once for about 15 years and had two children.

I couldn't find any pictures of the old George O'Brien.

I heard Cecil B De Mille and John Ford surrounded themselves with veterans from the silent days.

R307, he was married to actress Marguerite Churchill, who was in DL lesbo fave Dracula's Daughter. They had a third child who died in infancy.

George O'Brien must've invested his silent movie money well.

Olive Thomas was an interesting silent screen star. Promoted by Ziegfield, she made movies where she played a kind of perky All American kid sister type. In reality she was a boozing, partying slut. She used sex to get what she wanted. When an old lady commented commented on a piece of jewelry Thomas was wearing Thomas made light of by replying "It’s easy, honey. I got this for two humps with a Jew in Palm Beach.” No wonder she hooked up with Jack Pickford, who was as into partying and boozing fucking with impunity as she was. Her death came as a major shock to the film industry. She died by taking mercury bichloride, a deadly poison that Jack Pickford was supposedly using to treat his chronic syphilis. The situation was strange; she went to a medicine cabinet looking for water (water in a medicine cabinet?) or sleeping pills but ended up ingesting the liquid mercury bichloride. The theory was that she was hung over or something and just took the poison by mistake. But it was always a mystery? Did she take to commit suicide? Was it really an accident? They mystery persists to this day.

Olive Thomas's ghost is said to haunt the New Amsterdam theatre. I guess is there are ghosts, restless spirits, she certainly would be one.

"She used sex to get what she wanted. "

That's a first.

There are full nudes of George O'Brien early up in the thread. No dick shots but professionally posed and shot.

[quote]The only ones to successfully transition to sound were Greta Garbo and Ramon Navarro, the rest went home.

That's a vast over generalization. Loretta Young, for example, was a silent star in the 1920s (she was in her teens, having started as a child actress) and she transitioned quite successfully, winning her Oscar in the late 1940s.

Was Loretta Young a star in silent movies, or more of a "working actress" in silents, who didn't get famous until the 30s?

Mary Astor and Carole Lombard were also in silent movies, but I don't think they became stars until talking movies in the 30s.

Marlene Dietrich was a fairly well-known actress (not a huge star, though) in German silent films.

Clara Bow was a huge star in silent movies and talkies as was Joan Crawford and Mae West. Chaplin of course too. I'm sure there are many others like Marion Davies, Gary Cooper and Kay Lenz.

Laurel and Hardy were big comedy stars in silents before successfully transitioning to sound. Our Gang, aka The Little Rascals, too.

r315 Mae West never made a silent film. Her first film was in 1932, when she was already 40 years old.

They were all whores. From the very first day she arrived in Hollywood in the summer of 1930 Bette Davis slept with Errol Flynn, Douglass Fairbanks Jr and Clark Gable. And then she got into pictures.

Thank you, Darwin Porter.

W.C. Fields was another who was an actual star in silent films and made the transition. One of his big hits in the mid 1930s was Poppy, which was a remake of his silent film hit Sally of the Sawdust, directed by no less than D.W, Griffith. Both films were based on a stage play Fields has starred in.

r318 Bette Davis never slept with any of those men. In fact, she didn't sleep around at all. She had very few affairs in her life.

Davis slept with most of her directors. And killed one of husbands by bashing him in the back of the head with a lamp and got away with it by saying he tripped on the stairs.

Bette Davis pushed that lady off the Hollywood sign too. And she poisoned Gene Harlot with antifreeze. It's never been solved but now you know.

She was just doing research for "The Letter."

"The only ones to successfully transition to sound were Greta Garbo and Ramon Navarro, the rest went home.

"That's a vast over generalization. Loretta Young, for example..."

R313, I was referring to the foreign-born actors who came to Hollywood during the Silent Film era, when films had no dialogue and a limited grasp of English was no handicap to an actor. That all ended when sound came in and suddenly the likes of Vilma Banky and Emil Jannings were replaced by all-American boys and girls like Gary Cooper and Loretta Young. It was only later, when the transition from silent to sound was over, that a new generation of foreign-born stars came in, like Marlene Dietrich and Charles Boyer.

Very few immigrant actors made the transition from silent film to sound, just Garbo, Ramon Novarro, and Delores Del Rio. And Navarro and Del Rio didn't last through the thirties.

[quote]And killed one of husbands by bashing him in the back of the head with a lamp and got away with it by saying he tripped on the stairs.

That has been thoroughly debunked. Her husband collapsed and died on a street in Hollywood. He was an alcoholic who slipped and fell and hit his head several weeks before and a clot formed. Davis had nothing to do with it.

That's what SHE'd have you believe. Their alcoholic rows were legendary even at the time.

(Yes, he collapsed on the street and no one really knows how he sustained the initial injury.)

Some people are better off,dead.

r327 he fell and hit his head at home, Davis wasn't present at the time.

Bette Davis smothered her adopted daughter and caused her brain damage. She told my ex this when he used to sew buttons on her hats. Sadly he died after knowing her too.

But, R329, her evil twin was. Didn't you ever see Dead Ringer?

Bette Davis was one of the great mass murderers of the 20th century . Everyone knows why she wacked Jack Kennedy

What's the story about Bette Davis giving the Oscar his name?

She thought the Oscar statuette's ass looked like her first husband's ass. Nobody really knows if that's true or not, but it makes a great story!

What was once Valentino's property abutted the Cielo Drive property where the Manson murders occurred.

Miss Schneider......

I'm sure most of you already know this, but Rudolph Valentino's Falcon Lair in Benedict Canyon was owned by Doris Duke for decades, and she kept it in its original condition, it was a beautiful estate. The main house was demolished only about a decade ago.

Helen's Teutonic Norma....

Why was it demolished?

Just greed and disregard for history as usual?

Yes, r339. Lots of beautiful historic houses in LA have been bulldozed to make way for trashy McMansions. It's awful.

Awful.

PBS here does these specials called Lost Minnesota or something and I can’t watch them anymore because they make me angry.

All those stunning houses and structures torn down because “NEW! We need NEW!”

There was just one on showing how a F.L.Wright House was dismantled and demolished because the county/city wouldn’t rezone or give permission to build another house on this family’s huge lot. The family didn’t want to live in it but would have left it standing and built a second house.

This is a good example of an LA McMansion monstrosity. It takes up the entire lot and looks like a Comfort Inn in Tucson. This is the house that was built on the lot of the old Sharon Tate house (which was demolished in the mid-90s), it's owned by the guy who created Full House, I forget his name.

It does look like a resort.

They could refilm the shining there.

I don’t think I’d ever want to live on that lot though whatever house was on it.

Too much tragedy happened there.

Re-film The Shining

Imagine Mae West in a silent movie. LOL

Who would tear down such a lovely historical home?

I don't think Valentino's looks would ever have appealed to more modern audiences. I get nothing from him whatsoever but George O'Brien certainly makes me sit up and take notice.

"Bette Davis slept with Errol Flynn, Douglass Fairbanks Jr and Clark Gable."

She did not. I'm sure she would have loved to have slept with them, though.

What a delusional post!

Bette Davis was a dog.

Yes, she did, R348. Also, John Dall, Richard Cromwell and Ross Alexander. Also Franklin Pangborn (the cruise director in NV).

R350 So doggy Bette did all the homosexuals as well!

R347 BS

Fun fact: Valentino's lesbian wife Alla Nazimona was VERY good friends with Nancy Reagan's mother, and she was godmother to Nancy. Talk about weird connections!

They take paradise and they put up a parking lot

Valentino had a very nice body... kept in good shape, in OP's photo.

He never smiled much in his photos.. he had a very nice smile, too.

Interesting that Valentino never became an American citizen... he was still an Italian national when he died.

They PAVED paradise and put up a parking lot.

Philistine.

George O'Brien's son, Darcy O'Brien, was a literature professor who wrote a roman a clef novel about his parents, "A Way of Life Like Any Other." It was critically praised when it came out, and was reissued a few years ago. Not recommended if you're invested in George O'Brien, man's man, since it presents him, late in life, as a pathetic but toxic near-grifter who refuses to recognize the fact that he's divorced because Catholics don't get divorced. There's some references to possible bisexuality, albeit mainly in the form of gibes from his ex-wife. It's a good book.

R355, Dying at only 31 helped.

Actually R358

The lyrics are

Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone? They paved paradise Put up a parking lot

No AND

So now you and I are both Philistines together😚

I think there’s an and...

In "Hollywood Babylon" Kenneth Anger said Valentino's memory was "cherished by Ramon Navarro, who kept a black lead Art Deco dildo embellished with Valentino's silver signature in a bedroom shrine. A present from Rudy." In a later chapter mentioning Navarro's brutal murder he said "here was a man dying, as he had lived, extravagantly, choked in his own blood, the lead Art Deco dildo that Valentino had given him forty five years earlier thrust down his throat." How's THAT for a juicy piece of gossip? Actually, Navarro never "cherished" Valentino's memory; he said they barely knew each other. And thought Navarro did choke to death on his own blood, it wasn't because a lead dildo had been stuffed down his throat. No such thing existed. A black lead "Art Deco" dildo? There were dildos that were Art Deco? Boy, Kenneth Anger has a vivid imagination. Yes, HAS; he's still alive. He's 91 years old!

A lot of Hollywood Babylon was total bullshit.

R363, MANY years ago in SF when I was in high school I sometimes babysat the kid of a Beat poet. Once when I showed up for that, the poet was with red-velvet-suited Anger. They went out somewhere. I seem to remember there being a copy of HB around.

No “and” R362

I think Lucille Ball would have been fantastic in the Silents. Mute the sound on this and it still gets laughs.

You're right, r367!

Don't forget. We have Gloria to thank for the look and soul of....

FOLLIES

Valention was not married to lesbian actress/director All Nazimova but he was married to her lesbian production/costume designer Natacha Rambova.

NAZIMOVA

Nazimova was the aunt of the brilliant producer Val Lewton (Cat People, Leopard Man). She was also in Since You Went Away with Claudette Colbert, Hattie McDaniel, Agnes Moorhead, Monte Woolley, and Guy Madison. Hmmmmm.

Nazimova was quite the lez, in an era when being openly gay took guts.

Time for a revival.....

Did anyone else see Meghan recoil exaggeratedly when an exasperated Joy said "Can I speak?" on Friday's show?

Joy: Can I speak?

Meghan: I will say...

Yes, R375, I would have sworn it was Nazimova as Salome!

[quote]An estimated 100,000 people lined the streets of Manhattan to pay their respects at his funeral. In Judy's case it was approximately 20,000.

That's it for Judy?! Bonnie & Clyde had 40,000 and they were just petty crooks.

[quote]Were women 100 years ago ,complete dogs? I have yet to see a truly beautiful actress or woman from that era..

Evelyn Nesbit was quite beautiful. She even looks contemporary and would still be a looker today.

Another of Nesbit:

I'm watching Route 66 with guest star.....

MR. BUSTER KEATON!!!

GM was damn good on that show too. Really electrifying and "authentic." Years ago i knew a guy in NYC who was a contractor who did work for a male brothel, among other places. He said all the boys vied for Rock Hudson. He also said that George Maharis liked to fuck when on his motorcycle. I also knew an actress who in the 50s had gone to the same acting school as GM and had a crush on him th edn. She said one of the other students (Steve McQueen?) put her wise.

Clara Bow was MY baby!

He was like me only not murdered by trade

I wonder if Rudy ever put the art deco dildo up his ass?

Why were actors more handsome back then compared to today? Today we have Bradley Cooper.

R385 because during the studio era, they went out of their way to find and cast good-looking people. After the studio system finally collapsed in the '60s, they started casting more 'regular people' which made it possible for the likes of Dustin Hoffman and Gene Hackman to become superstars in the '70s and beyond.