The Mary Tyler Moore Show

Almost half a century ago...

Who would you do then? Ed Asner or Gavin McLeod

According to press at the time, it was Mary's decision to end the show after 7 seasons. She wanted to spread her wings in dance and song on her own variety show. Bad decision.

Jack Cassidy turned the part down because Ted Baxter was too similar to another character he had played on the sitcom He & She, which garnered good reviews but lasted only one season.

Ed Asner then.

Gavin McLeod in The Love Boat days

Forgot to include the legendary John Amos

Happy anniversary, MTM.

Reruns all these years later are still enjoyable, with better storytelling than most current network TV dreck.

Ed Asner and John Amos as alpha tops but with very different styles. Gavin as a witty laid-back (non-bossy) bottom.

Ted has zero sex appeal, as did all of Mary's potential boyfriends.

Was the character Murray (played by Gavin MacLeod) assumed to be gay, though it was never discussed?

R7 Murray had a wife Marie (Joyce Bulifant) and 3 daughters (one who was played once by Helen Hunt) and later an adopted son. He also had a crush on Mary, and even propositioned her once. So, no, his character wasn't meant to be gay. Just a loser, I guess.

I love this show. I reminds me of my early childhood. Nostalgic I guess. One of the best written comedy shows of all times. Brooks is a genius and MTM was at her peak.

Was she anorexic?

She wore extensions the first season, not full wigs.

I wish Ed Asner, John Amos and Gavin MacLeod were my co-workers.

Mary's Angel's: Full Throttle

The opening credits for season two, at one point Cloris Leachman looks towards the camera and cracks up laughing, I was wondering if that was an outtake or not..

Mary had diabetes which probably explained the weight differences. She was thin in the early seasons then seemed to "blossom" around season five. Even Rhoda's mother Ida made a crack about her bazooms.

[quote]The kitten that meows at the end of the closing credits is a parody of the roaring lion that appears at the beginning of MGM films.

OMG, and all this time I thought it was a parody of the Paramount credits image of the Matterhorn!

There's an episode where Mary's face appears where the cat usually is and says budeeuh, budeeuh, that's all folks!

"Who would you do then? Ed Asner or Gavin McLeod"

Mr. Grant did not like spunk.

She was very thin in "Just Between Friends"

A porn soundtrack would have done wonders for the show.

Rhoda's sibling count changed over the first few seasons - she mentioned a brother at one point and the number of daughters Murray had fluctuated, too. Dick Schaal played both Arnell brothers - Howard and Paul and another one of Mary's suitors had that surname, too.

I realize the men of Data Lounge have low standards, but really? Ed Asner?

Next new thread - who would you rather do? Ed Anser, Danny DeVito or Abe Vigoda?

Man, what do some of you look like to find these men desirable?

[quote]The show was originally going to be about a divorced woman. Divorce was still a controversial subject in 1970, so it changed to a broken engagement.

I had heard (maybe from Mary in an interview) that it wasn’t so much the notion of divorce that would have been off-putting, but that TV audiences would have been prone to picturing Mary (Laura Petrie) having divorced Dick Van Dyke (Rob Petri) which would have proved difficult for them to get passed.

Yes, I've always heard that they didn't want anyone to confuse MTM from her stint on the Dick Van Dyke Show and think that Laura Petrie had divorced Rob Petrie.

Thus, Mary Richards was a single girl who had broken off her engagement.

If it's a choice between Ed Asner, Gavin McLeod and.........Vic Taybak, now we're talking!

CBS special that aired in 1969 between the demise of the Dick Van Dyke Show and the premiere of MTM.

Am I the only one who owns Just Between Friends on DVD?

There was a clip at the end of the show when the MTM cat turned sideways and landed upside down. With special effect sounds...

I was always surprised they didn't do more with Mary's parents. They cast Nanette Fabray as Dottie Richards but only used her for two episodes.

So Ed Asner, who's now 88, was only 40 when the show premiered?!

^^^^Oh, now I see why the men of The Data Lounge have the hots for Ed Asner - he's in their age bracket.

r29: Yikes! Now I know why she was referred to as "No-Nose Nanette".

No one mentioned Sue Ann Niven’s? Betty White was absolutely amazing playing against type. I loved her here and thought that she must have been considered first for the Blanche character in Golden Girls, but they wisely decided to change it up. Just a hunch.

Sue Ann was a great addition especially as they would lose Rhoda and Phyllis as well as the apartment set within a year. I could have done without Georgette or at least, less of her. They pushed Mary's home life to the background in the last couple of seasons but the show remained a wonderful series.

I'm in my mid-30's, so this show is obviously before my time, but oh how relevant it still is.

I discovered it as an in the closet, depressed teen when it was on heavy rotation on Nick at Nite. I'd even skip school whenever they were having an MTM marathon.

It's a brilliant show yet feels so warm and cozy. Mary was everything I wanted to. Rhoda was everything I was.

Now I'm a twisted version of Sue Ann and Murray.

I bought the entire series years ago. I still rewatch it from beginning to end once a year.

More than anything, it's a show brimming with love and hope.

Decided to exhume my old MTM thread. I got a kick out of a lot of the replies (450 of them!).

Mare is loved.

R33 That's exactly what they did, originally Betty White was going to be Blanche, and Rue McClanahan was going to be Rose. But, they switched them because BW had played Sue Ann on MTM and Rue's character Vivian on Maude had been too much like Rose, in addition to also being similar to their characters on Mama's Family. Bea Arthur originally didn't want to do Golden Girls until they switched characters because she felt it would just be Maude and Vivian meets Sue Ann.

[quote]Mary had diabetes which probably explained the weight differences. She was thin in the early seasons then seemed to "blossom" around season five. Even Rhoda's mother Ida made a crack about her bazooms.

MTM also got breast implants about the time of Season 5 - the difference is dramatic.

Mary admitted that she felt she was too thin in Season 1; even with padded bras, she's noticeably flat=chested. But as a brittle diabetic she had to control her diet and weight - and MTM was notoriously self-disciplined.

Mary was also an actress who was very conscious of her appearance. By Season 5, I think Mary wanted to change her image up and be seen as more sexual, maybe a little less like the "Good Girl" that all the guys liked but didn't necessarily lust after.

I think I read somewhere that Murray was indeed originally written as gay, and was to have been Mary's nemisis, but after Gavin was cast they instead decided to make him straight and give him an unrequited crush on Mary.

R38, that must have been around the time that Mary guest starred on "Rhoda" (1975-ish), and they did a joke where Mary told Rhoda that she'd gained eight lbs, and Rhoda asked her how she managed to gain it only in erogenous zones.

Murray comes across an effeminate, slightly bitchy gay guy.

I never bought him as a straight man. But in those days, no network TV sitcom was going to be allowed to have an openly gay character, not even a ground-breaking show like MTM.

CBS wanted MTM to drop the Rhoda character after the pilot, because she was Jewish.

R35, you have good taste. It's too bad you weren't around to see the original boadcasts--a once-in-a-lifetime experience, to be savoured in one's senescence.

R43 xoxo

Why didn't she take her husband's name? Was she lesbonic?

Some people consider James Brooks' Broadcast News to be The Mary Tyler Moore Show movie

As a young gayling I remember crying during the last episode.

I always wanted Mary to Marry Lou . The writers wrote that as the last episode. Mary nixed the idea.

I still enjoy listening to the theme song from time to time.

If it doesn't end with bomp, bomp, bomp, bomp, bomp, bom...

It sucks

The details about Hazel Frederick, the judgy woman frozen forever in the opening credits hat toss.

Interesting about gay Murray as I don't think Gavin McLeod gave off any gay vibes in The Love Boat.

I like when the opening theme song to the show is played in Unzipped.

R51 He became a fundie during the Love Boat years so he gave off born again vibes on that show.

You’re high if you think that prissy MacLeod had any sex appeal.

And for all the Emmy awards the show got he wasn’t even NOMINATED. Not once.

It finally started showing its age in the last decade or so. Until then, it was funny enough to still seem reasonably fresh for decades. Individual episodes still hold up, mostly the ones featuring the strong female supporting cast, Valerie, Cloris and Betty.

R54. I'd love to get high with Gavin and have him bounce up and down while sitting on my lap.

Well that was an oversight, r54, it's not like he couldn't deliver a funny line. Gavin deserved to be nominated at least once. I guess Ed and Ted, who were funnier, kept crowding him out.

Any episode centering on Ted and Georgette was pretty awful. The show lost something in its 5th season, with Valerie gone and Cloris only making one or two appearances. Mary also became more shrill and bitter, and didn't seem as likable. Guess it didn't help that by season 5 or 6, MTM was looking like hell.

Ted Knight was whining that he wanted Ted Baxter to be more likable. They gave into him, resulting in the new saccharine, less funny Ted.

I would have fucked Ted... and when I was in the mood for a hot, daddy bear top my call would have been to Lou.

The episodes that stand out in my memory are The Lars Affair, with the first appearance of Sue Ann (I always wondered what in the hell Phyllis put in that pie she baked. Cloris Leachman's reaction bit was wonderful.)

And the one when Rhoda entered a beauty contest at the store where she worked and needed an evening gown. The women were in her apartment going through dresses; Mary had brought up some, I think. And Phyllis goes, "Maybe I have something from when I was pregnant."

Mary was not a brittle diabetic. One cannot be an alcoholic and a brittle diabetic. She finally quite drinking about ten years into her marriage to Robert Levine. He, by the way, was 18 years her junior. Wonder if he is living high on the hog these days, having her only heir.

Anyway, MTM refused to admit to anorexia, though interestingly, valerie harper did. She gave several interviews in which she said that Mary, Cloris and she used to skip lunch and do strenuous aerobics every day. Ed Asner complained about this as he and Gavin Macleod gained considerable weight at the same time and the contrast became somewhat alarming. This was sason 4, i believe when weight loss was celebrated and Rhoda became a series Beauty. She was however scary skinny and when she herself grew alarmed at her appearance on the show, she cut back on the eating disorder behaviors. Mary and Cloris however did not and true to form, Cloris, despite nw being large by comparison (perhaps a size 12?) still harps on her distaste for fatties, calling them undisciplined slobs.

I think MTM got off on being America's sweetheart, and struggled to control her world and her body, lest it all fall apart, as had been a great fear in her addiction-filled, alcoholic childhood home. Her autobiography discusses some of this. Sad really. She was not, i think, ever happy.

These hands, which once touched the notes of Chopin, now forced to bake a damn pie!

By the way, MTM had been a lifelong liberal until the last 2 decades of her life, when she switched allegiance to the Republican party and made hefty donations to the McCain and Romney campaigns. Ed asner has gone on record as saying, "she used to be a progressive intellect, but she has changed. She is no linger reachable."

I think MTM was experiencing mental decline, dementia, and losing her intelligence naturally turned her into a Republican.

[quote] I'd even skip school whenever they were having an MTM marathon.

So you were in night school? Because Nick and Nite played after 8pm. Hence the name Nick at NITE.

MTM was a heavily decorated series but is really something of a footnote. Not a big success in syndication ever and not even a giant DVD success story. That there are only 67 replies about it as opposed to endless threads about Follies (which was the same era) does suggest its reach was not as profound as thought.

Yeah, the show probably wouldn't have had all the seasons released if Oprah didn't get involved, heavily promoting the show. That Girl was a bigger DVD success. But it's the same old story, middlebrows rule, there's more of them.

“I hope that you and Sharon will be as happy in your marriage as Lars is in ours!”

Unfunny. Didn’t have much selection in those days.

Oh yes, so unfunny, that's why it got 69 Emmy nominations with 27 wins. You fool.

Rhoda was a swinger.

R38, MTM’s weight gain in season 5 was alcohol bloat. She admits this in her autobiography. Her face begins looking puffy and tired - it’s a marked difference.

She wore wigs often, and it’s noticeable when episodes are binged. Her hair in the Chuckles the Clown episode is an obvious wig.

In one later episode when Mary goes to a convention in DC, MTM eschews the wig and you can see that her real hair is thin and stringy.

(Shelley Long has the same hair issues during her “Cheers” run, btw.)

R73 I always wondered about Shelley Long's hair on Cheers. That huge feathered flip could be seen from outer space! Possibly one of the most obnoxious hairdos of all time. I had a girl in high school (while Cheers was at it's height of popularity) who did her hair in the EXACT hairstyle. She was even more obnoxious and goody goody than Diane.

Unfunny show.

MTM sure didn't look like she had implants in Just Between Friends

Stupid old people laughed at anything back then.

MTM was also capable of slapstick. Lou pouring a drink on a girlfriend's head, Murray putting Sue Ann into a cake, etc., Ted pieing an obnoxious critic.

R66 Yep. I was a Freshman when I first caught the show. They'd do all night marathons up until 10am sometimes. Hence why I'd skip school.

They made a mistake losing Rhoda and Phyllis and Mary’s home life. It was nice to have that balance showing different sides to Mary’s character. It got a little one-note once they focused strictly on the WJM characters.

I think they made a mistake giving Rhoda and Phyllis their own shows. The ensemble was what made MTM such a great show and once you lost those two important pieces of the puzzle, MTM was never quite as good. And both those shows ended up flopping so it was all for naught.

[quote] [R66] Yep. I was a Freshman when I first caught the show. They'd do all night marathons up until 10am sometimes. Hence why I'd skip school.

You're misremembering. NaN ran from 8pm to 6am, not 10am. The Marython was a week long marathon airing those specific hours the entire week. Nickelodeon shared the channel w/ Nick at Nite and there's no way they would air sitcoms into the 10am hour when the channel's bread and butter was programming for children who are up well before 10am. Sorry.

I always felt there was a strong parallel between the MTM Show and The Wizard of Oz:

Mary = Dorothy Lou = Scarecrow Murray = Tin Man Ted = Cowardly Lion

My feelings about this show mirror exactly how I feel about the Golden Girls. Love the first 4 seasons, the 5th season was hit and miss, 6th was the weakest, and then it perks up a bit in the 7th.

How did you have her, r74.....

Parks and Rec succeeded on a nearly identical formula.

R29 Nanette Fabray is interviewed about this for the Archives of American Television. She's quite candid about the characters not working. Jay Sandrich, Valerie Harper, Gavin McLeod too. Each interview is about 5 minutes long. They're really interesting & can be found on YouTube.

I thought Bill Quinn (Bob Newhart's father in law IRL) was fine as Mary's father, but daffy Nanette was totally miscast as her mother. I think Mary gave her the job because they were friends and was a big fan of her Your Show of Shows shtick.

Ha, ha, ha. You don't know what loneliness is 'til you get into bed with Lars.

Was Lars gay? Did he date Armand Linton and his wife Nancy?

Jesus, now I got a hankerin' for some veal Prince Orloff!

[quote] And both those shows ended up flopping so it was all for naught.

Rhoda ran for five season; hardly a flop.

I watched the Mary Frann/Joanne Forbes antisemite episode on YT last night, and boy was Mary Frann stiff and awful. Very stilted. Was she still doing DOOL at the time? The episode was very well written, but Frann brought down her scenes.

I certainly didn't think it perked up in season 7. The ratings dropped dramatically, she was in that ugly, cold apartment and there were only 2 or 3 genuinely good episodes tops. I thought everyone agreed it was the worst season.

R54, same with the Teddy Awards.

R94 the show doesn't have the staying power of say Three's Company, I like MTM but is it even airing in reruns anymore anywhere?

TC is on 3 different stations daily

Lucille Ball's favorite TV shows in the 70's were Mary Tyler Moore and Three's Company

I loved her first apartment. It was warm and cozy and in essence became another character on the series. But I see why they needed to get her out of there in season 6. The ghosts of Rhoda and Phyllis were very apparent, and the writers were trying to make her more adult, and with that, they needed her to be in a more adult apartment. But I agree, the apartment was cold and ugly and cookie cutter. I thought season 7 was better overall than 6. Her romance in season 6 with Ted Bessel was just about hitting rock bottom. She looked her worst during that story arc.

i wish they'd kept on Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place as her new neighbors.

The 7th season has that classic scene with all of the men walking in on her while she's taking a bubble bath, but nothing else about it is memorable to me.

Mary's romance with Ted Bessel was infinitely preferable to Rhoda's marriage to Joe. The show had problems pairing their stars up. Ida and Martin were ideal as were Lou and Edie. Rhoda had a nebbishy boyfriend played by the wonderful character actor Steve Franken. That has possibilities but they dropped it.

Mary Kay Place finally made a comeback in the critically acclaimed Lady Dynamite. Unfortunately, stupid Netflix canceled it after 2 seasons. One of the best comedies I've ever seen.

"Oh, Mr Grant". "Call me Lou". "L-L-L-L-Lou".

R95 Not true. Murray was nominated for a Teddy award a couple of times but was the only member of the newsroom never to win one which mirrired real life and the Emmys.

R91 "Do you know what happens to Veal Prince Orloff if you let it sit in the oven too long? He dies!"

I believe the show announced it would not be coming back in 1976. In TV guide, MTM revealed her displeasure with the new "jiggle TV" shows like Charlie's Angels. The MTM show really coincided with the feminist movement of the 1970s and MTM always wanted her show to be about the empowerment of women. I think the popularity of Charlie's Angels made her feel that she had done a lot of work for nothing and it ultimately was a consideration in her decision to quit...the men noted above wanted to quit because the profits had fallen. I would think that ratings issues really hit the principal characters hard and that explains why MTM looked a bit haggard in the last couple of seasons.

She had diabetes and didn't tend to it well, with the drinking, and she also said she'd binge eat donuts regularly.

[quote]I loved her first apartment. It was warm and cozy and in essence became another character on the series.

Every one starting out back then dreamed of having that exact apartment. And it's true: it was like another character on the series.

The "He & She" apartment of a few years earlier was very similar. I wonder if it was the same set designer.

The Veal Prince Orlof scenes might be the comedy highlight of MTM.

Chuckles the Clown's death comes in second for me.

Season 1 came off a bit saccharine and precious, but there were some standout episodes IMO, notably the pilot, the Christmas episode, the episode where Phyllis gets a job in the newsroom, the Armand Linton episode, Ida's first visit, and the one where her apartment keeps getting robbed. Seasons 2-4 had the most consistent run of excellently written episodes.

I like the episode where Sue-Ann is humiliated by going on a trip with Mary and being totally ignored by a group of men they go out to dinner with. Sue-Ann was always hilarious and got to show some vulnerability for a change.

Betty White was excellent but I never "got" the Sue Ann character the way I understood Rhoda or Phyllis. Was Sue Ann supposed to be jealous of Mary? Why did Murray always insult her? His insults at Ted made sense, but his insults at Sue Ann just seemed to have motivation and were a cheap way to get some laughs.

^to lack motivation

Well Sue Ann wasn't necessarily all that likable. She and Mary were never close friends and I think I remember Mary pointing that out a few times. I don't think Murray liked her that much either, and she'd make mean jokes about him being bald, so they liked to trade insults. Smart funny people sparring. Sue Ann was delusional enough I don't think she was usually jealous of Mary. That's why it hit her so hard when it was made obvious that Mary was more attractive in that episode at r111.

Loved the show, but you have to blame Jim Brooks and Allen Burns for foisting Georgia Engel on the world. She was interesting in beginning, especially in the episode where Mary and Rhoda tried to help her from being Ted's doormat. But she got more and more annoying at time went on. She did not belong in that final scene.

R113, yeah, I loved Sue Ann but she and Mary were never friends. I really missed Rhoda and even kooky Phyllis.

Mary and Sue Ann did bond over the hot plate fondu moment in the hotel room, but that was more dramadey than comedy.

Wimpy Georgette bored and annoyed the fuck out me too. The weak link in the female cast for sure and of course she quickly disappeared into obscurity after the show.

Georgina Engel was a really bad choice to bring onto the show, and pairing her up with Ted Knight made him hard to watch those last years.

Grown women with little girl voices.....ick.

R116 No she didn't, she was on Coach as Shirley Burleigh, playing the exact same type of character as she did on MTM.

No, not complete obscurity. She's had a healthy career with some TV work and lots of stage work, both Broadway and in major regionals. Lots of actors would kill for the career she's had.

I agree she eventually became annoying as fuck on MTM.

I think the character of Georgette clicked in the beginning, when the character was portrayed as being absolutely pathetic.

Lucy wanted to play Mary's mother, but Gary talked her out of it.

Lucy wanted to play Mary, but Gary convinced her she looked to young to play a woman in her 30s.

^ I know, "too" young. Sorry.

MTM seemed to be a private person - I'm sure she had a rich social life, but she didn't seek public exposure the way some celebrities do. At least this is how I remember her - I never remember seeing her on a talk show or anything similar. She was a very successful entertainer and maybe she felt she didn't have to promote herself.

MTM talking about the upcoming Bob Newhart Show.

Ever the terpsichorean.....

I second the endorsement of the Veal Prince Orloff episode but I actually hated the Chuckles the Clown episode. I thought it was very smug, self-congratulatory and not at all funny.

R82 You may be right. I still skipped school because of staying up all.

The season 3 finale episode in which Rhoda borrows money from Mary to open a plant shop is very funny, though the plant shop is never mentioned again. The exchange between Mary and the bank loan officer played by Louise Lasser, as Mary tries to secure a loan, is a riot and the highlight of the episode. Also features a very young and handsome Craig T. Nelson as a mechanic.

MTM was like a lot of celebrities, she could be engaging and charming, but she could also be cold and distant - she didn't find it easy to let others get too close.

Mary grew up with a cold, disapproving father and an alcoholic mother. Carl Reiner has talked about how be bonded with Mary on the set of the Dick Van Dyke as a surrogate father figure to her in those early years of her career. He also said Mary told him she never remembered her own father giving her a single compliment throughout her entire childhood. When she got dressed up for her first formal dance, her father told her she looked "presentable".

Mary's childhood family life was so dysfunctional that she lived off and on with her Aunt and Grandmother. In her high school years, when she tried to live with her parents, she had to sleep on the sofa in the living room. She admitted she married her first husband Richard Meeker when she was only 18 primarily to escape her parents' home.

Mary and Meeker had a son named Richie together, and within a few years Mary landed the Laura Petrie role on "The Dick Van Dyke Show". The show was a big hit and Mary became the breakout star of that show that had originally planned to focus more on Rob Petrie's work life than his home life.

By her early twenties, Mary was suddenly a well-known actress in a top-rated TV show, but it ended her marriage to Richard Meeker. Those who knew her have said Mary was incredibly disciplined and ambitious -she worked hard to have a successful career. Mary admitted that she sent her son Richie to live with his father for years at a time, because she found Richie too difficult to deal with.

Mary starred as Beth Jarrett in the movie "Ordinary People" - a role that probably reflected Mary's personality in some ways more than her TV character roles. I've always thought it was such an odd and tragic parallel that Mary's own son Richie died in October 1980, only about a month and half after the premiere of "Ordinary People", in which she played a mother who couldn't cope with the death of her son.

In both of Mary's MTM Show apartment sets and in every season, there is always a picture of Richie somewhere in the apartment. In the Victorian house apartment, it's sometimes on the table behind the brown sofa. Other times, Richie's picture sits on a table in front of the apartment windows.

Sue Ann also got to show some vulnerability in the episode that was basically a take-off on "All About Eve," in which a young, attractive woman (played by Linda Kelsey, who would go on to co-star on "Lou Grant") is hired as Sue Ann's assistant and goes on to take over her show.

Having Mary move out of that apartment was the single worst mistake they made on the show. I HATED the new apartment and it took all the charm and warmth out of it.

It was unusual in 1970 for a woman TV star to get network commitment for a sit-com, as Mary did, without having to submit a pilot. Mary and Grant Tinker submitted the pilot episode to CBS only after they had signed Mary to the series.

And Mary has said that CBS told them the MTM pilot episode tested worse than any pilot episode in the network's history. I doubt that was true, but some CBS executives clearly had buyer's remorse for committing to the MTM series before seeing the pilot episode.

Cloris Leachman has said there was skepticism in Hollywood that Mary could carry her own TV series, not to mention some resentment toward Mary. Cloris says she remembers overhearing a conversation at a restaurant, where a man in the industry said somthing like, "Who the hell does this Mary Tyler Moore think she is, doing her own series. She's just another TV sit-com wife."

*night. For some reason I remember watching it until late morning.

Yeah, I think that Nick at Night marathons ran all night, or at least, well into the early morning hours.

R132 One of my favorites. Love Sue Ann's line to a food poisoned Gloria Munson, "If you can't stand the heat dear, stay out of my kitchen."

R134 That same test audience hated Rhoda so they had Phyllis' young daughter Bess express how much she liked her so she wouldn't be so oft-putting.

How very sad that "it was unusual in 1970 for a woman TV star to get network commitment to star in a sit-com."

r137, and that's also because they thought the audience had a bias against Rhoda for being Jewish. A Jewish character was still controversial at the time.

Don't forget Marie Brewster, r138.

Mary and Grant Tinker not only created the MTM show together, they created the MTM company to produce their show.

But I've read that they put all of their assets on the line to do it. They were a great team - but the pressure must have been tremendous for them.

I remember reading about some guy who wrote that he was sitting at a red light in LA in 1970; he looked over and saw a beautiful Mary Tyler Moore driving a convertible Jaguar. He wrote that he wondered at the time if Mary and Grant would lose everything if the show failed.

[quote]How very sad that "it was unusual in 1970 for a woman TV star to get network commitment to star in a sit-com."

The poster wrote that it was unusual that Mary got the series deal without having to submit a pilot episode first.

Or are you just naming every woman who ever had a sit-com?

Mary had to take a gamble, her movie career had fizzled and she was becoming a has-been.

"Stupid old people laughed at anything back then."

Oh shut up, idiot twat. Go to another thread, you're stinking up this one.

But, remember, R91, if you leave Prince Orloff in the oven too long, it just DIES!

R119 She was nominated for a Emmy three consecutive years for her portrayal of Robert's mother-in-law on "Everybody Loves Raymond." Not to mention her hilarious re-teaming with Betty White in "Hot in Cleveland." And won an Obie award in 2016.

Thanks, R146, I was about to bring up her success on Everybody Loves Raymond. Georgia Engel may seem one note, but she's a much more talented actress than she's given credit for, and I think anyone who complains about her either has only seen one or two episodes with her on MTM or just refused to pay attention to her as Georgette. Yes, she started off as a dizzy, punchline character, but the closer she and Ted got to marriage, and then afterwards, Georgette actually proved herself to be an insightful character who may have been ditzy, but was not dumb. She had some lovely scenes with Mary and usually showed Ted up, but in a loving and caring kind of way. She wasn't Alice Kramden.

I looked forward to Georgette's scenes in later seasons of MTM because Georgia was able to take a character that seemed all surface and find some depth. Of course the writers helped, but Engel was up to the challenge.

The Mary and Rhoda reunion movie (really a backdoor pilot for "the next generation" teaming of their daughters) was horrible. But at least it had the virtue of Joan Jett singing the theme song.

Georgette, the wimp, stood up to Ted on a few isolated occasions, but it never had a fraction of the impact of Edith standing up to Archie. And Valerie, Cloris and Betty were simply far more funny, they outclassed her by a mile.

Georgette was awful. Ruined the show.

Ted Knight ruined the show, couldn't stand Ted Baxter.

Joyce Bulifant ruined the show. She ruined everything she was on, including Match Game.

Agree, R148, the "Mary & Rhoda" movie whas hugely disappointing, though it wonderful to see Mary and Valerie as those characters again. The problem was that, while they were smart to not want it to just descend into a nostalgia orgy, they went a little too far in the other direction. They could have had Rhoda ask Mary if she's still in touch with Lou, or ever hears from Murray (friends often ask one-another about mutual friends) without compromising the integrity of the show. In not making mention of ANYTHING from the old days (did they even mention Minneapolis?), it seemed like they weren't even the same characters.

Nobody "ruined" the show, nitwits at R150/151/152.

R52, it's probably her resentment at not getting to be Mrs. Brady that makes her so disagreeable.

The movie should have had Mary, divorced, moving back into the one room apartment in Phyllis's house.

Intro to the Betty White Show at around 0:40. Complete with Georgia Engel's patented dopey grin.

Impossible for any man to divorce Mary Richards. She was total perfection. And if you even considered the notion she would make you SUFFER.

Mary Kay Place has been part of some great ensemble casts like The Mary Tyler Moore Show, The Big Chill, Thirtysomething, My So-Called Life.

R128 I didn't laugh at all in the Chuckles episode.

r159, how can you mention Mary Kay Place and ensemble casts and not cite MARY HARTMAN, MARY HARTMAN, which introduced her to America?

R153, at a press thing for Mary & Rhoda, they were asked why no Murray, Lou, Sue Ann etc.

Mary tried to explain it away that they were people M. Richards worked with not family; I thought OMG what a slap in the face. "DEAR, LOU."

Oprah went into the ugly cry when Mary surprised her on her show.

What I don't understand is why Mary didn't wear wigs in her later appearances. She'd have looked so much better.

Count me among those who didn't see the greatness of the Chuckles episode. But I justify it by not seeing it until 25-30 years later, after dozens of series aired something along those lines. Maybe you had to be there first time.

Overall I liked the show, particularly the early years. I always thought Ted Baxter was the weak link but with a strong cast and writing, it wasn't that noticeable. It became more noticeable after Rhoda and Phyllis spun off. As others have mentioned there was very little warmth between Mary and Sue Ann, and I agree with several other posters that the Georgette character did not add much. If I ever catch a rerun in the post-Rhoda years, I generally turn it off. It wasn't necessarily bad, but something was lacking.

Years and years and years back, I saw her at Judy's in Century City. I was with my mom and there was Mary, shopping like any other frau. Judy's was featured in the episode where Mary takes care of Bess. The thing I remember about her was that she was the skinniest woman I'd ever seen.

My favorite episode, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it, is "Put on a Happy Face." It's a Teddy Award episode when everything goes wrong for Mary, starting with untamable, sticking up hair, a cold,a ruined dress, no better date than Ted, rainy night, soggy shoes, eyelashes falling off and she WINS and has to stand up in front of a crowd on her worst day ever. Rhoda takes gleeful pleasure in Mary being in a valley, while she, Rhoda, is hitting a peak.

The running jokes of the Teddy Awards and Mary's parties always being such disasters (Veal Orloff!) were funny to come back to over various seasons.

The other episode I loved was the one where SueAnn takes to her bed and everyone comes to visit her in her bed jacket and we get to see her sex boudoir...going to go look this one up and watch it now, bye.

R167, Yes!!!!! ”I usually look so much better than this.” Is my favorite line. I’ve said that to myself so many times when I look like death. Definitely one of my favorite moments, but The Lars Affair is my favorite episode of all time.

I’ve got too many to list...but many of my favorites are Rhoda lines. ‘Meet my dates...’ and ‘I won, Cookie!’ Or ‘He’s gay!, I thought for sure you knew Phyl!’ & ‘“Her even younger friends call her Ffffff.”

I can never look at the MTM show the same way I did years ago after hearing story after story about what a bitch she was to fans.

The finale is one of the greatest of any sitcom ever. I tear up every single fucking time.

I've made a few friends and boyfriends watch it, even if they've never seen an episode of MTM and I've always gotten one of two reactions (and sometimes both):

1. Tears.

2. "That was good. Can you put on the first episode of the show?"

After long, thoughtful deliberation, I've reached an impasse, and it is impossible for me to choose between Ed Asner and John Amos. I'm not a fan of threesomes, but I I am determined to make it work.

R169 I never read any stories like that.

R171, You know John Amos can THROW. DOWN. A. FUCK. He could fuck the Dyn-o-mite out of your ass.

I feel like Ed Asher might want to just lay there and get serviced.

The disappointing aspect is that she became conservative and supported Republicans in her later years.

She seemed brittle, there is a you tube video where she is interviewed along with Valerie on Rosie and she made some kind of snide remark to Val at the beginning and Valerie looked at her and just went on with what she was saying.

Sex with Ed would obviously include a lot of spanking.

The episode where Mary mistakenly sets Lou up with a 70+ year old woman is gold. Love Ted's comment after he realizes Lou is stuck with this woman, "Got great legs!"

Mary gets a pass from regarding her complicated personality and turning Republican later in life.

I read her memoir in high school and admired her spunk and honesty. She came from a fucked up family yet managed to make something of herself through hard work, perseverance and true talent.

Of course, Hollywood has a habit of fucking up even the sanest people, but let's get real, most people who enter showbiz enter it already fucked up. They either need approval because of deep insecurity or are narcissists to begin with.

After her son killed hi.self, which she writes intimately about in the book, she recognized parallels between her and her father, whom she admitted basing her performance of Beth Jarrett on in Ordinary People. She noted she inherited his cold, detached ways, which had crushed her many times during her own formative years. I thought that was brave and ballsy of her to admit.

I fell in love with her even more after that.

The MTM Show is timeless, I believe, because Mary's warmth, kindness and generosity WERE genuune, even if she only felt comfortable revealing those aspects of herself while acting/performing.

Her father had A LOT to do with her stifling those qualities in herself in real life. Also, the debilitating need for perfection (eg all that awful surgery) stems from him. She was traumatized but still managed to become extremely successful.

I admire her deeply for that.

*gets a pass from me

[quote] Georgette, the wimp, stood up to Ted on a few isolated occasions, but it never had a fraction of the impact of Edith standing up to Archie.

This is an ignorant statement. AITF and MTM were completely different types of comedy and Archie and Edith were the leads. Ted was a second banana and Georgette was nothing more than a featured player.

Also, fuck you Georgette haters.

R178 She also admitted she was not the best mother and no celebrity ever admits to that.

Georgette was in The Sweetest Thing as the owner of the store where Cameron Diaz and Christina Applegate do their music montage

never could stand it

way too hyper and silly o my

rose marie was kinda fun

morey a. hell no

R184 Haiku or bell hooks?

R184 wtf are you even talking about?

Also, did anybody else love Aunt Flo?

r183, they should set that montage to Steam Heat.

Georgette had many layers as evidenced at R187.

Such a brilliant performance.

Martha Dudley [the old woman Lou gets stuck with as his blind date]: You know, Mr. Baxter, you look very familiar to me.

Ted Baxter [preening]: Oh, you've probably seen me on television.

Martha Dudley: No, I don't watch television. I have a fireplace.

I agree with others who find the "Chuckles" episode overrated. I laughed the first couple of times I saw it, but it was never one of my favorites, and it's one of the few that I don't really look forward to rewatching, despite its near universal acclaim. Similarly, much as I love "All in the Family", I always found the "Sammy Davis" one (considered to be that show's most famous episode) to be one overrated and mostly unfunny.

I also loved Aunt Flo, R186. She knew how to push Lou's buttons in a way that a Mary (and Sue Ann) could only dream about.

There are two types.

I also liked Lou's girlfriend Charlene. I always wondered if they'd intended her as sort of a replacement for Rhoda (sarcastic, street smart, as Rhoda had been, as a foil for prim and proper Mary). I thought she looked cute with Lou, and was disappointed when she disappeared after only a few episodes.

Another episode I love is the first appearance of Ida, Ro's mother.

A surprisingly poignant, Rhoda centric entry.

I Watched that clip r157 damn that videotape! It looks literally Public Access quality. Although I’ve never seen Betty look better (at least in middle/old age).

It must have been a huge disappointment though when it was cancelled; I sense that it was a very hyped show at the time.

Several characters disappeared during the course of the series. Andy, the sportscaster Mary hired lasted a couple of years then was gone. Her parents were gone after 3 or 4 appearances despite living nearby. A couple of Mary's bfs - Joe, Dan, Lou's gf Charlene and several of the background workers changed around season 5.

R130 great observation. It always bothered me that the super successful plant shop went away. Would’ve been a much better career setting for Rhoda in her own series.

R196 I’ve read some stories that said Charlene, Joe, etc didn’t get more developed because of scheduling conflicts w the actors.

Two of my favorite episodes (on YouTube):

"Once I had a Secret Love" from season six. Stellar work from Ed, Mary and Betty ("Well, maybe on my lunch hour."). Very funny and the ending chokes me up.

"Two Wrongs Don't Make a Writer." The episode isn't hilarious from start to finish. It's mostly all set-up for the final scene which ( I think) is one of the funniest of the entire series.

In the final years, Mary had no female friends except Georgette. That would drive anyone crazy.

Count me in as another who doesn't get the appeal of the Chuckles the Clown episode. I can see how that type of black comedy was daring back then, but now it doesn't seem as bold. I love the series and can watch many of the episodes, especially from the earlier seasons, over and over, but Chuckles the Clown is not one that I ever revisit.

...a little song....

...a little dance...

....a little seltzer down your pants...

To me, it’s a timeless classic that still holds up beautifully. Besides the aforementioned “New Sue Ann” episode with Linda Kelsey (hilarious denouement!) and the visit from Sue Ann’s sister (Pat Priest from “The Munsters”), some other episodes I love are “Phyllis Whips Inflation” (her run-in with employment agency staffer Doris Roberts was hilarious) and when the lights go out during Mary’s party for Johnny Carson. And Sue Ann’s scenes at the Teddy Awards (I including planting a big smooch on a fellow-winner who happened to be a priest!) were always a hoot.

[quote]Mary Kay Place has been part of some great ensemble casts like The Mary Tyler Moore Show, The Big Chill, Thirtysomething, My So-Called Life.

Being in one episode (of MTM) doesn't qualify of being part of an ensemble cast.

Will you Shut Up, Ted?!

....

The Mary Tyler Moore Show: Simply the best television show ever.

Think again, r208.

R205 It does for that episode

Loved this show. Never understood how Mary was supposed to be way better-looking than Rhoda. Didn't like the death of Chuckles the Clown episode (not funny to me). Hated Georgette's baby voice and the character, in general. Liked the episode in Season 5 where they are snowed in at work and eat a Christmas dinner (in November) that Sue Ann prepared for her TV show.

The Rhoda episodes were the best, by far.

I can imagine that the show had a strong gay following when it first aired.

[quote]The episode where Mary mistakenly sets Lou up with a 70+ year old woman is gold. Love Ted's comment after he realizes Lou is stuck with this woman, "Got great legs!"

Martha Dudley not only had great legs, she was a flower girl at the wedding of Thomas Alva Edison.

It's amazing that in the 70s shows like All in the Family and MTM had very sympathetic gay characters. The one when phyllis' brother dated Rhoda was very funny and made a mockery of bigotry. DIdn't Alice also have an episode where she dated a guy who turns out to be homo?

That kind of pop culture all went downhill fast once Reagan was elected.

R215 is Ron Reagan

[quote] DIdn't Alice also have an episode where she dated a guy who turns out to be homo?

Yes, and she was an unbearable cunt about it.

Betty White's Sue Ann Niven was a strong addition to the ensemble cast in the later seasons, but they didn't use Sue Ann often enough.

And the later seasons lacked the female camaraderie that came from Mary and Rhoda's relationship, and her relationship with Phyllis that created the feeling that Mary had a good personal life, in addition to her career.

This 10-minute reel shows some of Betty White's amazing work as Sue Ann Niven. And in fairness, Sue Ann loved and pursed dick like a gay man.

I think the feeling was, as it was with Phyllis, that a little Sue Ann went a long way.

I think they were wise to use Sue Ann only sporadically. Brilliant as Betty White was, a character like that is really stronger in smaller doses. And I assume it's why there was never a Sue Ann spin-off.

If they'd spun Sue Ann off into her off series, they'd have had to water her down in order to make her more palatable as the lead character to audiences. I think they learned from the "Phyllis" disaster not to go that route.

Even Mary Richards didn't like her new apartment.

In the new apartment and in Season 6 and 7, Mary no longer seemed young or as if her life were full of potential.

It was as if she became a middle-aged woman during the season hiatus with nothing in her life but her job and a kind of bland apartment.

It wasn't MTM but Rhoda who had the huge gay following at that time. Ironically, they tried to turn Rhoda into MTM on her own series and it backfired, especially when they put the unbearably whiny Julie Kavner into the Rhoda persona. Rhoda's sets were also terrible as we spent more and more time in Brenda's claustrophobic apartment.

The Betty White spinoff had the problem of Caren Kaye doing the Sue Ann part so it didn't work.

Julie Kavner was the best thing about Rhoda.

Lorenzo Music as Carlton was the best thing about Rhoda.

Hello. This is Carlton. Your doorman.

Was RHODA the first ever NY-set sitcom that realistically had a buzzer in the apartment that had to be pushed to allow entrance?

[quote]Yes, and she was an unbearable cunt about it.

To be fair, she was an unbearable cunt about EVERYTHING.

[quote]The Betty White spinoff had the problem of Caren Kaye doing the Sue Ann part so it didn't work.

Did anything Caren Kaye did EVER work?

R169, she wasn't rude to all of them; and maybe the diabetes made her grumpy.

I was in an improv class once and we were given the exercise to talk about someone famous without saying their name while the audience guessed who we were talking about; my scene partners and I got MTM on the slip of paper and eventually someone in the class guessed it; one student asked me why did I say she was a meanie early on in sketch and I said, 'well, I've heard she is.'

The teacher loathed me some reason I always felt, but even the teacher agreed with me that it was a good first clue to give out.

One girl in the class was STUNNED to hear this; she said she'd met Mary in NY once and she was very nice and encouraging to her.

R229, remember she was the airhead sportcaster on MTM who refused to report on "violent" sports. Mary hired her and Mary fired her.

Kaye got to romance Matt Lattanzi in My Tutor when Lattanzi was actually ot.

R231, meant to write hot.

Also, I thought Alice was quite sympathetic to the gay guy who wanted to take Timmy camping.

Here is the Alice episode "Alice Takes a Pass". A funny moment when Flo realizes he's gay. It's a little more nuanced than I remember.

What was the Neil Simon show that he fired Mary from during rehearasals?

Wr234 Rose’s dilemma, I’m pretty sure.

^ Answering my own question, it was an off-Broadway production in 2003 called Rose's Dilemma. The show was past rehearsals and into early previews. Moore still didn't have her lines down and had to be prompted by an assistant in the first row. Simon had his wife Elaine Joyce deliver a sternly worded letter to Mary backstage saying "learn my lines or get out of my show." She went on that night but never came back.

I wonder if her dementia had already started setting in.

R236, that's not the version of the story I heard. Neil Simon was notoriously insecure and had a tendency to try to micro-manage the production of his work. Simon kept insisting on changes to the script. MTM and the rest of the cast were working from script changes that Simon had given them only that day.

MTM was a big star at that point in her career, but she and the other cast members were forced to work these rehearsal with wireless earphones, because Simon's rewrites were so incessant.

It was shaping up to be a disaster, in part because Simon couldn't stop meddling. But Simon refused to take responsibility or step back. Neil Simon wrote the withering, mean-spirited letter to MTM and had someone hand it to her.

I've heard the stories about how cold and distant MTM was capable of being in her personal life, but she was never anything but professional and dedicated in her work.

MTM was not the only actor that Neil Simon abused over the course of his career. MTM was in a position to walk away. And Simon was stupid enough to put his mean-spirited criticisms in writing!

[quote]Simon had his wife Elaine Joyce deliver a sternly worded letter to Mary backstage saying "learn my lines or get out of my show." She went on that night but never came back.

As I remember it Simon was in the hospital so Joyce may have been the culprit of all the tension. Yes he was rewriting constantly (or was Joyce doing it?). MTM and the cast were having trouble with the new lines. Joyce delivered the nasty note (it really should have gone thru the director) and Moore was so upset she left the theater immediately missing a matinee and never to return. Simon/Joyce had lots of issues with actors around this time. Marisa Tomei and Jane Krakowski both dropped out of workshops of Sweet Charity due to Simon/Joyce attitude.

[quote]Simon wrote the withering, mean-spirited letter to MTM and had someone hand it to her.

I've always heard that Simon was notorious for avoiding direct confrontations and always getting someone else, usually Elaine after they married, do his dirty work for him.

One of my favorite episodes was "You Try To Be A Nice Guy." Barbara Colby was brilliant as Mary's hooker friend Sherry. The talented actress, who was making a name for herself as a comedic actress on tv, filmed 3 episodes of the series "Phyllis" with Cloris Leachman before she was murdered at age 36; shot and killed for no apparent reason. Her killer was never arrested. She was replaced on the show with the annoying LIz Torres. What a tragedy. I loved her as Sherry and Mary coming out wearing the hooker green dreen was one of the best moments on the show. The dress was considered "really awful" by Mary and "terrible" by Georgette but celebrities on the red carpet wear gowns very similar to it these days and are considered fashion plates. Sherry was ahead of her time.

[quote] Barbara Colby was brilliant as Mary's hooker friend Sherry.

See r20. The dress by modern Red Carpet standards is modest. It includes panties.

Rose's Dilemma was dreadful. I saw a late preview after MTM walked and it was a hopeless disaster that even she couldn't have saved.

I think it was the first or one of the first of Simon's last works to premiere off-Broadway (at MTC). Simon, of course, had customarily had all of his other premieres on Broadway, practically one every season. most to great success, at least financially.

I really disliked the Murray Slaughter character - his smugness and sarcasm repelled me . He reminded me of a few guys I know - they think they're intelligent, but in fact they have small . mingy, mediocre minds. Ted Baxter was much smarter and deserved his higher salary.

Fuck, I had no idea Neil Simon was married to Elaine Joyce!

Elaine Joyce was the poor man's Joyce Bulifant.

R218 Poor, sad, depressed Sue Ann's smile when the bed vibrates kills me.

Theme song writer Sonny Curtis released this in 1970:

Barbara Colby was shot and killed in a parking lot. Totally random and awful. Liz Torres was a mediocrity. Colby was very special.

[quote]Well that was an oversight, [R54], it's not like he couldn't deliver a funny line. Gavin deserved to be nominated at least once. I guess Ed and Ted, who were funnier, kept crowding him out.

Yeah right, R57. It was on for what? 20 years? If he'd anything resembling talent he'd have snagged a nomination if only for the fact that he was on a hit show. There were plenty of opportunities to nominate him.

Gavin sucked. Albert Brooks showed how great the character could have been in ‘Broadcast News’.

I thought Mary looked HOT during seasons 5, 6 and 7.

She had that glamorously"haggard" look that said, "I'm pushing 40, drink, smoke and tan and am starting to look it but look at all the fucks I give (and can still) get!"

She had banging tits and an almost perfect body.

R245 from everything I can gather she reallt does sound like the epitome of a gold digging cunt.

R251 I think MTM looked good with the exception of when she had that horrible helmet do around the time of the Chuckles episode. Did people even get implants back in the mid 70s? For one I didn’t even think tits were desirable then.

MTM also looked better with the blonde highlights she started to get around the second or third season.

The thing with MTM walking out of the play was very dramatic. She just left. They had a matinee coming up and people were literally like where is Mary? Then people said they saw her go out the back door. She said nothing. They put in the understudy and then I guess eventually her agents contacted them saying she wouldn't be coming back.

I always thought it was telling as to the quality of the play that no other star would take over the role. Even a minor stage actress. The understudy just eventually was given the role full time officially.

I can say from personal experience Elaine Joyce is not a nice person.

Barbara Colby was also Ethel Merman's daughter in law.

This cunt was mean to our Mary!

Moore was often a bitch to fans. There are many stories of her refusing to sign certain photos, getting in arguments with autograph seekers only to put on that fake smile just before the camera clicked.

Elaine Joyce was JD Salinger's mistress between her marriages to Bobby Van and Neil Simon.

She played Sugar in Sugar (Some Like It Hot on Broadway).

She's also one of the girls in The Roller Skate Rag giving Fanny Brice grief in Funny Girl.

R256. Mary was a brilliant but fragile STAR, darlin'. We've discussed her turbulent brilliance up thread.

She was perfect to us and if you try and smear that, we'll eatcha ALIVE.

Vicki Lawrence is a bitch to fans too. So it wasn't just Mary.

I met Vicki when she came in to my gallery. Gorgeous skin, beautifully dressed and very nice.

Sue Ann Nivens prepares the Veal Prince Orloff dinner party. Mary and Sue Ann at their best:

Elaine Joyce was also one of the dancers in Bye Bye Birdie. You can see her in front when AM does her spectacular twist into the camera.

I remembered her doing an interview shortly before she married Neil Simon. She said that after Bobby Van died, she went on a totally wild binge dating everyone. She said she dated a guy who was so rich that his house was bigger than Neiman Marcus but she hated him. She said she dated a guy who was in a motor cycle gang and although the sex was great, they had nothing in common. I was sort of in awe of her after that.

I think a lot of former actresses who become Trophy Wives fall into either the sweet, kind, submissive mold or the take charge, bitch mold. Joyce had been in the industry long enough to know what had to be done to get things right. She might have also known that Simon was already showing signs of Dementia so she was really working for him.

Joyce was my celebrity partner when I was on the $25,000 Pyramid back in the 20th century.

She was nice but she had a cold sore on her lip.

I blew a round so I didn’t win, but my consolation prizes included $25 worth of Palmolive dishwashing liquid and $25 worth of Swiss Miss hot chocolate mix.

I remember thinking Bobby Van was kind of cute.

r261 That's also the episode with a pre-"Happy Days" Henry Winkler.

I always hated when Elaine Joyce showed up on the Match Game. She had a shrill voice and always insisted on pulling focus from the regular panelists. And while they would always good naturedly rib each other, Elaine was always a straight up cunt. The way she talked to Brett, I kept hoping the ex-Mrs. Klugman would walk down to the lower level and belt her one.

R266 she was actually a good game show player though on password and pyramid. She wasn’t dumb even if she was in the “dumb seat” and played that up to get attention.

She's inherited Neil Simon's money. How stupid can she be?

Elaine Joyce also convincingly delivers anti-gay lines as a model in the film The Christine Jorgenson Story. Something like "I'm trying to play up my high cheekbones and this one has got me made up to look like a sick Indian! And they all hate women and it shows in every picture they take!"

Brett Somers said in interviews about "Match Game" that she tried to get along with Elaine Joyce, but Elaine never liked her, and Brett didn't understand exactly why.

Whatever Brett did or said on camera, she seemed to act as a sort of hostess for the show off camera.

I have no doubt that Elaine Joyce was smart, but she was also a real cut-throat bitch.

R261, I love "The Dinner Party" episode - it works on every level (introduces Sue Ann Nivens as a character) and never makes a false move or a wrong note.

I love that big-hearted Rhoda brings a then-unknown Henry Winkler (the Fonz) as an uninvited guest, because he had gotten fired from Hemphills Dept Store that day. She persuades Mary to let her set a place for Henry at the "little table" by the window.

There's a great moment when Mary brings out the Veal Prince Orloff and Rhoda (who obviously gets excited about food) stands up and points to it for Henry to see from the "little table" - it's that the kind of throw-away gesture that made the gay guys love Rhoda - a made Valerie Harper SO brilliant in the role of Rhoda

There was some big MTM wardrobe credit controversy that I've heard referred to but never fully understood.

In the early season's, the credit say Mary Tyler Moore wardrobe was provided by Norman Todd.

But did it later change to Evan Picone?

Does anyone know the full story?

R271 Except for the fact that Sue Ann was introduced in the very first episode of the 4th season, "The Lars Affair".

Mary Tyler Moore liked John Ritter so much that she put him as a guest spot in every MTM sitcom in the 70s

Until he got Three's Company

R259 hard to believe about Vicki Lawrence. I had the chance to meet her about 20 years ago and she was very pleasant and engaging .

R272, Season one, Evan Piccone. Seasons two through seven, Norman Todd. Don’t know why the change though.

Oh wow. Evan Picone. There's a name I haven't heard in 30+ years!

Who was Worsted Tex?

I don't know Worsted-Tex

But from context, I'd guess Worsted-Tex produced some really bad men's polyester blazers and pants

Correct, r279. And Murray's leisure suits.

And those goddamn sweaters.

I wish meat prices were still that low.

Wow, this thread filled up fast!

She's dead, you know.

Yes, she didn't make it after all.

R274 doesn’t surprise me in the least. He was always very well liked, kind of like the male Betty White.

He married Georgette and Ted if I remember correctly.

I always thought Ted Knight was extremely overrated, in any event.

I watched the Prince Veal Orloff episode above. Hadn't seen it since it originally was broadcast.

It is indeed hilarious though almost ruined by Ted's schtick.

I also noticed that Ed Asner was an inch or two shorter than Mary and Henry Winkler was an inch or two shorter than Ed. But I have to admit Winkler had adorably incredible charisma, even in that nothing role. It's not surprising he became such a sensation as Fonzie.

Y'all can laugh about Asner but he had a real alpha sexiness about him at the time.

He did roll the way of Wilford Brimley, but there was a point where he was more of the hairy ex-football player, and a lot of us liked that.

I love that episode because it pushes sweet chirpy mary to her limits. You can feel the tension as Sue Ann counts down to when dinner will be served. Then again when Rhoda brings an unexpected guest. Then again when Lou takes 3 servings. So well-written.

"Hi!" is another great episode, when Mary has to share a hospital room with the very grumpy Pat Carroll.

And the Little Bo Peep bridesmaid dress episode...

Regarding Mary's occasional remoteness with fans, it could be related to the insulin that she had to take for type 1 diabetes. 30 or 40 years ago it was very difficult to manage the disease, and insulin peaks and valleys could create mood swings that were almost impossible to control. An intrusive fan could have interrupted her at the wrong moment., of which there were many with type 1 fluctuations.

R287 and his son Max is even shorter than he is.

I’ve met Henry Winkler twice though he really is one of the nicest people.

One of my favorites was “Lou’s Place” where Lou follows his dream of owning a bar. Business is lousy and at the end of the episode Lou - in typical gruff Lou fashion - forces all of the bar patrons to participate in a sing-a-long of “Alexander’s Ragtime Band”.

R293, great episode; had another great Rhoda little moment when Lou asked everyone to sing as if they were having fun and Rhoda stepped up. 'C'mon along!'

Henry Winkler winning his Emmy was the sentimental story of the night at the Emmys. even more than the director proposing.

Season 6 - “The Seminar” in which Mary and Lou travel to D.C. Hilarious cameo by Betty Ford!

Every one says Mary gives lousy parties but isn't it really their fault? Aren't her friends usually the ones who create a disturbance? Lou has probably ruined the most but Phyllis had a couple of shots and I'm certain Ted and Sue Ann are guilty of bad behavior. One of the few times Lou hosted a shindig, Ted caused a scene that unleashed a gleeful Gordy in an epic putdown.

R282. Meat prices are non-existent if you don't buy it

"Mr. Grant you take half. You have to put some back."

*Mr. Grant, you took half. You have to put some back."

Except that Henry has won two prior Daytime Emmys. An Emmy is an Emmy!

Daytimes count!

Seriously!

All of the mentions of veal Prince Orloff. No love for baked pears Alicia?

R303, I thought I smelled Baked Pears Alaska!

How about Pancakes Barbara?

I'm another one that dislikes the Chuckles episode. It doesn't even seem to have been written by the usual writers.

"....He had dressed as the character Peter Peanut, and a rogue elephant tried to "shell" him...

Oh please...

Make that Baked Pears ALICIA, R304 ;)

Thanks, R307

got my MTM and Mr. Freeeze/Batman episode mixed up!

The Mary Tyler Moore Show is an odd one for me. There's a very nostalgic quality to it but I don't really find many episodes especially funny or that enjoyable to re-watch. But I loved the "world" the show created and the characters seemed like real people I would enjoy knowing or working with. The theme song and opening credits are like a window into a world I'd love to inhabit but the show itself never quite measures up to that promise.

R309 ... You're more of a Ted.

I guess I'm one of the few who enjoys and appreciates the "Chuckles" episode. I remember as a child, my bedroom shared a wall with our living room, and my parents and some guests (can't remember who) woke me up with their howling at the episode.

Cut to years later, watching the episode as an adult. I was Mary, in that I never thought Lou and Murray's jokes were all that funny. But it's Mary's reaction at the funeral that rings true. She's so emotional, and it's getting released through laughter, as hard as she's trying to stop. Then at the very end, when the laughter turns back to tears. It's one of those situations where you can't control your emotions and everything is tumbling out in an inappropriate setting. It just felt real to me, and her performance there was what I found so humorous.

Mary was a cock hound.

[quote]Y'all can laugh about Asner but he had a real alpha sexiness about him at the time.

[quote]He did roll the way of Wilford Brimley, but there was a point where he was more of the hairy ex-football player, and a lot of us liked that.

For us, r288:

I didn't like the Chuckles episode either. For me, the most memorable one was The Lars Affair. And the Veal Prince Orloff one ("Mr. Grant, there's enough Veal Prince Orlof for six; you just took half." "You know what? I'm not as hungry as I thought [putting back two slices].")

R313 sign me up.

[quote]For me, the most memorable one was The Lars Affair.

Cloris Fucking Leachman. One of the greatest comic actresses that ever graced the TV screen.

And she's got the multiple emmys to prove it

And she drove the show runners crazy!

R316 and yet she sucked as Beverly Ann on The Facts of Life

[quote]And she's got the multiple emmys to prove it

Not to mention Cloris Leachman's Oscar.

The funny thing about Ed Asner is he seemed to spring, fully-formed and bearish on the MTM show.

Did he perform in anything notable before that? Wherever did they find him?

[quote]And she drove the show runners crazy!

I don't know if Cloris Leachman drove the show runners crazy or even what that comment means.

I think Cloris is amazing and was brilliant on MTM.

I did read somewhere that Cloris drove Doris Roberts crazy during the filming of the "Phyllis Whips Inflation" episode. In the scene, where Phyllis meets with the employment agency representative, Doris Roberts, Cloris was not happy that the set was designed so she'd have to play the scene with her bad side (I didn't know she had a "bad side") to the camera.

When the producers would change the set or the blocking of scene, Cloris got out of her chair facing the desk and played most of the scene standing with her back toward Doris Roberts. That left Doris Roberts, who was not a particularly well-known character actress at the time, out of frame for most of the scene and annoyed her tremendously

I never even noticed it until I read that story.

I will never forget-shortly after MTM started airing on TV Land- I watched the Veal Prince Orlaff episode, and they'd cut the bit with Mr. Grant taking too much out, and Mary admonishing him for it ! The original episodes had 25 minutes of content. They now have to get them down to 18 minutes.

I've never been one to write complaint emails, but I did for that. That joke is almost the whole point of the episode! At least they left "he DIES" in. Next time it aired, it had been restored.

A lot of the first season is somewhat of a chore to get through.

Here's a great Cloris story. She's backstage with her dance pro partner and all the couples are lined up in the dark waiting for Dancing With the Stars live show to start.

Everyone's quiet and she says: "I wish somebody would hit me in the head with a mallet. I want to see some stars!"

Ed Asner played a cop in the 1969 camp classic "Change of Habit" starring Elvis and Mare.

Vic Taybak young

R322 You're not aware of Cloris and her shenanigans then you're not much of a MTM fan. Your example perfectly illustrates just one reason why they found her difficult. She often changed the blocking during filming and anyone who knows about such things will tell you how badly that affects everyone else on set.

Off topic, but I just watched a Naked City guest starring Miss Brett Somers!

R328, but it's also so perfectly the self-absorbed gay-man-in-a-dermatologist-wife's body, who was Phyllis Lindstrom.

"These hands that once touched the notes of Chopin are now reduced to baking an apple pie."

[R321]

Ed Asner was a bit part actor in the 60s.

He was a scene stealer as far back as 1963, in an Outer Limits episode called "It Crawled Out of The Woodwork." The cast of that episode was Scott Marlowe, Michael Forrest, Kent Smith, and Barbara Luna, but his few minutes as a cop stole the show.

[quote]Off topic, but I just watched a Naked City guest starring Miss Brett Somers!

I can beat that.

I rewatched the MTM episode "Rhoda's Sister Gets Married" over the weekend.

And Brett Somers showed up as Rhoda's Aunt Rose.

I couple of years ago I was flipping through the channels and an old Lassie was on, from the Timmy era. I was astonished to see Cloris as his mother. I did some googling and found out that when Jan Clayton and Tommy Rettig both decided to leave the original series, Cloris and some dork were cast as the new parents who took over the farm and adopted Timmy, who had already been added to the cast before Rettig and Clayton left.

The show's fans detested .Cloris and the new hubby and flooded CBS with hate mail. They were written out after their contracts expired at the end of the season. That's when June Lockhart was hired to replace her. The producers thought that season's episodes were so bad they were never included in the syndication package until fairly recently.

And the producers were very glad to get rid of Cloris. She was very difficult on set and in an interview she talked about how much she hated Campbell Soups. They were the show's sponsor!

I can't imagine why Cloris was unhappy performing in this....

"Fat people pollute the aesthetic environment. They should all be rounded up into fat camps and forced to diet."

Bess, that was Mother's news.

[quote]You're not aware of Cloris and her shenanigans then you're not much of a MTM fan. Your example perfectly illustrates just one reason why they found her difficult. She often changed the blocking during filming and anyone who knows about such things will tell you how badly that affects everyone else on set.

Well, considering the results of her shenanigans are the best loved episodes of the series, she deserves even more credit.

During the original Broadway production of South Pacific, Mary Martin took one three week vacation. Instead of having Martin's understudy take over, or bringing in a name, R&H instead hired the then unknown Cloris to take over. I've always assumed this was Cloris's reward for spending time on Richard Rodgers' notorious casting couch.

The pre-perm do was ever so smart, r338!

I'm sure that was a publicity photo from before she actually began performances and the photo at r338 is how she actually wore her hair. In the original staging, Nellie famously washed her hair onstage and it had it had to be short to dry quickly.

Meanwhile, Cloris was cast in a small role in the original production of Cpme Back, Little Sheba. Then Katherine Hepburn wanted her to co-star in a production of Shakespeare's As You Like It and secured her release from Sheba.

I wonder what Cloris had to do for Hepburn? They certainly "appear" to be enjoying each other's company.

Cloris scored a big success with Hepburn but she might have been better off in the long run by staying with Sheba. It was a crtically acclaimed hit and most of the Broadway cast ended up repeating their parts in the hit film version.

Of course it is, r340. That's what I meant when I referred to it as pre-perm. That wackado cut is obviously in preparation for the perm.

That isn't true, r340. Shirley was the only one to re-create her role.

Oh, OK, gotcha r341.

I stand corrected, r342.

This is my favorite scene of the entire series.

Funny how other epic sitcoms had to have multiple or extended episodes to end their series. MASH, if I recall correctly was an hour long series finale; and Cheers was a 90 minute series finale. MTM told its story in approximately 22 minutes and it’s still the best series finale ever, IMO.

[quote] Bess, that was Mother's news.

Hilarious!

R333, As I recall, years later, Cloris said the reason she was fired was because, in an interview, she had said that she would have thought that Campbell's, as the show's sponsor, would have at least provided her with free soup, rather than that she hated it.

I think she said she only ate homemade soup.

^ Meant to add that at any rate she hated being on the show and producers wanted her gone, so it was a mutual thing.

From Wikipedia's article on Ruth Martin:

"With the new storyline ready, Cloris Leachman was quickly hired to play Ruth Martin.[13] As the season's filming progressed, Leachman tired of playing a farm woman. She wouldn't sign a contract, and refused to do PR for the show's sponsor, Campbell's Soup, telling the company, "I make my own soup. I don't eat yours."[14] Audiences found Leachman and co-star Jon Shepodd as Paul Martin "too stiff".[15] The two worked adult glances and touches such as holding hands, hugs, pecks on the lips into their on-screen performances in order to give their characters more depth.[16] Toward the end of the season, George Chandler was hired to play a grandfatherly character and to bring some warmth to the show, but Leachman was soon feuding with him; their disagreements appeared in the gossip columns.[17] With ratings plummeting and public resentment aroused,[15] show owner Jack Wrather summarily fired Leachman and Shepodd in February 1958 when filming for the 1957–1958 season was completed.[18]"

I love the scene between Cloris and Doris Roberts when she's asked about her work experience.

Helen Farrell (after reciting a number of work skills that Phyllis laughs away):

"What are your special skills?"

Phyllis:

"Well, I have the uncanny knack for choosing the right wine with dinner."

I adore Cloris Leachman — truly a unique and brilliant talent. (I know, Mary!)

Hi Hi

Phyllis after Lars, husband and dermatologist, told her that his business wasn't doing well and that she would have to cut back:

"Oh Mary, you don't know. If someone needs brain surgery no matter how trivial, they somehow find the money. But if someone gets a rash, they just scratch until times get better."

Phyllis realizing that she has no job skills: "I'm just a mere boutonniere on the lapel of the universe."

Phyllis trying to get Mary to break down. She offers her the scarf tie on her blouse to cry in and telling her not to worry as it was merely inexpensive Celanese Fortrel.

[quote]MASH, if I recall correctly was an hour long series finale;

The MASH finale on Feb 28, 1983 was 2.5 hours long. It got a 60.3 rating and 77 share, with over 105 million people watching. Still holds the record as that most watched episode of a TV series in the US, excluding sporting events like the Super Bowl.

[quote] MTM told its story in approximately 22 minutes and it’s still the best series finale ever, IMO.

I beg to differ.

^^ THANK YOU

Celanese Fortrel is one of those product names that would be a good drag name.

R323, are you kidding? They really cut that? My favorite bit is when Mary whispers to Lou re the Veal Prince Orloff “YOU HAVE TO PUT IT BACK!”

People talk about today's 'golden age' of television, but give me the 70s any day: Mary Tyler Moore, The Carol Burnett Show (some say it doesn't hold up, but I loved it), Aaron Spelling shows: Charlie's Angels, Family, Starsky & Hutch, Three's Company, Happy Days, Laverne & Shirley; daytime had the glory days of Another World under Harding Lemay, and Doug Marland's General Hospital, and the Dobsons writing Guiding Light.

For many of us, the Golden Age of TV had to include the soaps, especially the ABC block of Ryan's Hope, AMC, OLTL and GH. In the late '70s, early '80s, it was really wonderful to see such entertaining TV.

R362, absolutely; I grew up on east coast and AW was 3 to 4 or even 2:30 to 4 briefly; GH was either 3:15 to 4 or 3 to 4.

There's a stat out there that says 8 million viewers switched over from AW to GH because of Laura/Scotty/Bobbie and Lesley/Rick/Monica/Alan; I was one of them.

R363 and regardless of what anyone said, we Soap faithful knew how good the stories and acting were and how addicting it was. I know people who switched from Days to AMC because of Dorothy Lyman's Opal Gardner. We can look back at Karen Wolek's testimony, Cliff and Nina's romance, Mary Ryan vs. Siobhan Ryan, etc. and have nothing but the fondest memories. Even watching episodes on YT proves that they were indeed wonderful shows.

Your finale was soooo gimmicky, Bob/r357.

2.5 Hours Long, r356? Proves my point. Did we really need to watch that pussy Alan Alda cry for 2.5 Hours?

[bold]I[/bold] am the [bold]ONLY[/bold] Ruth Martin, bitches!

r366 The 2.5 hour MASH finale felt very bloated. They likely could have told the story in a 60 or 90 minute episode. However, by 1983, it was obvious that series finales could bring in lots of viewers, meaning the network could command high advertising prices. I suspect the CBS pushed for the 2.5 hours to sell more ad time.

Apparently, the finale was not included among the syndicated reruns that stations ran. It didn't air at all in the 80s, but starting in the 90s, they did make it available for broadcast. Many stations and cable channels ran it as a movie of the week. No doubt, the length was trimmed to make it into a 2 hour movie slot.

I always thought the MTM Show was another version of That Girl, which both shows I loved.

I never bought Ted Bessel as Mary's steady.

He only appeared in two episodes, but the whole time I kept wondering why Donald Hollinger was dating Mary Richards and what happened to Anne Marie.

[quote]He only appeared in two episodes, but the whole time I kept wondering why Donald Hollinger was dating Mary Richards and what happened to Anne Marie.

She got hitched to Mary's ex-fiance.

Wasn't that the reason Mary went out on her own.. a failed engagement? So, that's what happened.. lol.

The show missed a great opportunity by not having Marlo play the other woman Mary discovers in Joe's apartment. Instead, they used that awful Beth Howland who a year or so earlier played one half of a married couple Mary was friends with. Bert Convy was her way cuter hubby.

I agree R373.. that would have been good!

[quote]Wasn't that the reason Mary went out on her own.. a failed engagement?

Actually, I heard she was engaged to a doctor who got her pregnant and wouldn't marry her.

But he got another doctor to give Mary a quicky abortion, then he gave a few hundred bucks to move to Minneapolis and make a fresh start.

Stoopid

So you think Mary was a virgin, R376?

It was clear in the first episode that she had been sleeping with her boyfriend, but I think it's idiotic (and not funny or clever) to dream up some pregnancy scenario...

Really?

Well, tell us more about what [bold][italic]you think.[/bold][/italic]

When the boyfriend came to see her and was nuzzling her neck and seemed hot to trot, obviously he wasn't there just kiss her and hold her hand...

[quote]He only appeared in two episodes, but the whole time I kept wondering why Donald Hollinger was dating Mary Richards and what happened to Anne Marie.

Because Ann wouldn't put out. And then there was that nosy father of hers.

[quote] Rhoda ran for five season; hardly a flop.

And I think it would have run longer had the show had a showrunner that wasn't an idiot. Rhoda dealing with Joe's son, Rhoda marrying Joe, Rhoda divorcing Joe were the worst sitcom decisions ever made.

The MTM Show was such a culture icon of the 1970s that when the first Tales of the City was broadcast, they had Brian watching the beginning of an episode.

Remember Mary's date that took off his shirt and had a hairy chest?

One of my favorite bits,is in "Will Mary Richards Go to Jail?", where Mary hands Ted a page of copy, mid-broadcast, containing a big scoop, and whispers for Ted to rrad it. He proceeds to read it to himself, at which point, Mary screams (in MTM's best "Oh, Rob!" voice) "OUT LOUD!!" Never fails to make me laugh

R382, what I recall about Rhoda, was the resentment of those who'd followed that character for all those years (on both MTM and her own show, watching to see if she got her happily ever after, and when she finally did, they took it away aftee only two seasons. Supposedly that caused people to tune out, and the ratings to drop. I recently binge-watched, and those episodes after Joe walked out were incredibly moving and very realistic. They really captured that period when you suddenly realize that "forever" isn't such a sure thing, and where both people are trying to choreograph the inevitable drifting out of one-another's lives with as little pain as possible. Perhaps '70s audiences weren't ready for that, but I think it might have been TV's first depiction of a divorce in that fashion. Those episodes are really worth rewatching.

R385, their ratings were dropping and that's why they split Joe and Rhoda up but they should have never paired them, or at least David Groh with Valerie Harper. No chemistry at all and we didn't know him but we knew Rhoda and he was not the sort of guy Rhoda would marry.

The mistake with Rhoda was marrying her off so quickly. I mean, the wedding was the 8th episode of the series.

Show should have shown Rhoda having a long engagement. Lots of humor to be mined from the wedding planning. Wedding should have been the final episode of the first season at a minimum. Preferably further into teh second season.

The divorce episodes were well done. I had a psychology professor in college who showed one of those episodes as a jumping off point talking divorce. He said that episode made many of the points he wanted to make in his lecture.

I liked Mary,s first apartment. To this day I still decorate with a mix of modern and old stuff. Anyone else like Mary,s apartment? I also liked Rhoda's. It was so colorful and boho.

Did they ever show Phyllis's apartment?

Yes, Phyllis' apartment was shown in a couple of episodes.

We saw it on the "Phyllis Whips Inflation" episode.

And we saw Bess' room on "The Care and Feeding of Parents"

It was large and pretensions as we would expect - lots of glass and chrome.

I loved Mary's first apartment and also liked her second apartment. When I was younger, I loved Rhoda's pink apartment, but now I probably would hate it. Yes, they did show Phyllis's apartment at least once. One of my favorite episodes was when Lou moved into Rhoda's old apartment.

I need to go back and watch.,,I don’t remember Phyllis’ apartment at all.

The MTM Show had such great characters... all funny, but Ted was hilarious!

Ted was best in small doses. Georgette brought out new qualities in Ted, but she was also best in small doses.

I enjoyed Ted in the early seasons. However, once Ted and Georgette married, they became more prominent in the series and I enjoyed them much less. And once they adopted the kid, David, I grew to really dislike them.

Fun fact: the kid was played by Robbie Rist, who also played Cousin Oliver on the Brady Bunch.

Robbie Rist looked like a very young John Denver.

We know Mary was sexually active because in one episode, her parents are visiting her, and she's getting ready for a date. Mary's mom says that Mary's dad "don't forget to take your pill" and Mary and her father both say "I won't" at the same time. Mary, realizing what's happened, gets an "oh crap" look on her face and her mom looks slightly dismayed.

"Don't forget to take your pill"

Robbie Rist is truly a show killer.

Cousin Oliver's arrival signaled the end of the Brady Bunch..

Ted and Georgette adopting David signaled the end of Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Ugh. Robbie Rist looks like he'll grow up to be Brett Kavanaugh.

Somebody upthread is rewriting history.

We were all totally infatuated with David Groh as Joe. Perfectly cast and couldn't have been sexier or seem like a better match for Rhoda, at least when he was first introduced. But the wedding should have been postponed for at least 2 seasons and Joe a semi-regular character.

Remember when Rhoda redecorated Lou's place?

The infatuation with Joe died fairly quickly. He was a boring and increasingly irritating character and really killed the show.

I remember when MTM spun off Rhoda it was a big deal because the character was popular and a lot of people identified with her. The show was a big deal in the media when it debuted.

I also remember that marrying her off to that Joe character did not go over well. Personally, I lost interest and stopped watching.

It was a bad match, and I think that is why the writers eventually divorced them. They realized the marriage S/L was a mistake, but the damage was done, and even though Rhoda lasted 5 years, it's not remembered as a classic show, as MTM, The Newhart Show, MASH, and others from that era.

R404, implied but not stated was the concept that Joe and Rhoda had great sex but that was it. They had nothing else in common. Groh was also unable to bring any interest to the character and often just seemed loutish. The Hirschfeld cover of TV Guide depicted him as being close to an Ape.

Then Val got Valerie, she was fired or quit, Sandy Duncan came in and was funnier than Val ever was on the show. Then she got CITY which lasted about a half season and was canceled.

That is one of the worst Hirschfelds ever.

R402... Yes.. "I hate it... I hate it.", said behind clenched teeth... trying to show he "liked" the redo. Very funny..

.. it was done in a boho style, like Rhoda.

I hated those Hirschfeld covers of TV Guide. I didn't remember the Rhoda one, but there was an "All in the Family" one that gave me nightmares.

I remember this cover when I was a kid. I used to be a TV Guide junkie.

On Rhoda, Rhoda became Mary and her sister Brenda became Rhoda. It was increasingly a clone of the MTM show. They tried to find friends for Rhoda to be regulars, but they never seemed to pan out. Anne Meara they tried for a while, but they could never seem to give her any kind of definable character. They even tried the original TV best friend Vivian Vance. Viv appears in one episode, but either they couldn't come to terms, or Vance's illness prevented it.

The most ridiclous thing was in the final six episodes they brought in a "Lou Grant" clone to be Rhoda's boss (below). The show was just a lumbering mess at that point, and was getting murdered in the ratings by CHiPs. So, with 110 episodes in the can (100 episodes was the benchmark for syndication in those days) CBS did a mercy killing. I believe 4 or 5 episodes that were filmed never aired on CBS, and were only ever seen once it was syndicated.

One of the big mistakes in TV history was having Rhoda get married in the first season. It was just a bad idea in general, but the actor they got to play him (David Groh) made it even worse. The actor was just very unlikable, and sort of uniquely TV unfriendly. I've heard guys here say he was hot, but no way. I find him completely unappealing. Though, he was an alright villain as DL Brock on General Hospital. The whole Bobbi/Ginny Blake story line was great.

R409 The redo was basically a lot of white minimalism with a dark chair in the middle. Hardly Lou Grant's style and definitely not bohemian. What was Rhoda thinking?

But the last season of Rhoda gave A Chorus Line alumna Nancy Lane a funky character to play, Tina Molinari. They should have spun her off on her own show.

R410, there also was a ghastly Lucille Ball cover that made the Queen of Comedy look like a red-headed Fred Flintstone.

I just knew i liked Joe's hairy chest.

Hirschfeld's grotesque AITF TVGuide Cover.

Carol Burnett should have sued.

Vivian Vance.

Overalls were among the worst fashion offenses of the 70s.

they were all naggy harpys cept for betty white.

mary and Rhoda made me gag....

Hirschfeld's caricatures worked best as black and white drawings. The addition of color made them grotesque.

Who did Viv play on RHODA? Was it a one-off or a recurring role?

Joyce Bulifant (sp?) wrote a memoir about her 5 Hollywood marriages. I read it to pass time on a plane. It wasn't bad. Marie kind of defined her career as an actress to me. Oddly she doesn't talk much about the MTM show. Oh well. Loving this thread tho. Inspired me to rewatch MTM on youtube. For some reason the last episode isn't posted. BOO!

Mary Richards wasn't what you'd call hip or bohemian but teenage, small town me felt like she was "adjacent"so her moving out of the first apartment was like she'd sold out.

[quote]Joyce Bulifant wrote a memoir about her 5 Hollywood marriages. I read it to pass time on a plane. It wasn't bad.

You're our kinda guy R424!

Buck would never have WATCHED The Mary Tyler Moore Show!

That's because Sandy had a funny face, r406.

Love those TV Guide covers. Especially from the 70s. Good times.

Joyce was notorious in the '70s for making a beeline to the coatroom at various Hollywood soirees and pooping in other women's purses...

The problems with seasons 6 & 7 were that they were often plot driven by sitcom cliches. Ted & Georgette adopt, Georgette gives birth in Mary's apartment, Lou moves into Mary's building, etc. They needed to concentrate on character and expand Mary's world with friends that inspired storylines. Maybe a sister who moved to Mpls? The world she was turning on with her smile was just getting too small.

I heard she only did that to Joanne Worley, r429.

No wonder that cunt always smelled like shit.

Brett really did seem to hate Joyce on Match Game. She made pretty endless jokes about her lack of boobs.

Why Georgette never got her own spin-off is beyond me.

She was delightful as Minnie Fay opposite DL fave Danny Lockin in Merman's cast of Dolly.

Mare is legend in both The MTM Show and Ordinary People, as DL deity, Beth Jarrett.

Her show will always be a legendary classic (Tina Fey admitted that it was the benchmark for all sitcoms and that they tried honoring/ripping off of it for "30 Rock").

Though much less successful, "Rhoda" had it's charm, especially because of the three females: Ro, Brenda and Ida.

I has always wished that Ida's break up from her husband had been finalized and that she, Brenda and Rhoda had moved in together. That would've been an amazing set up. They had effortless chemistry and seemed really related.

Georgia as Minnie Fay......

I thought the "jump the shark" moment on MTM, was when she moved into a new apartment. I loved her old place in the Victorian house.

Only the once, R422. Miss Vivian Vance had sufficient.

[quote]Who did Viv play on RHODA? Was it a one-off or a recurring role?

One time appearance. All I remember is that they met in the basement laundry room. I don't really know what the character was supposed to be.

I think what Rhoda needed was a best friend. While Julie Kavner was funny, the sister thing really didn't work.

And let's not forget that Rhoda made the faceless "Carlton The Doorman" popular. That was probably the best bit of the show.

Rhoda should never have been married off. She was must more interesting as a single woman. Once she had her own show she got boring very quickly. In fact, the writers of the show were hard pressed to come up with ideas for she show, but after she parted ways with Joe that changed quickly. Rhoda and Joe...a very boring couple.

After Rhoda married Joe they became a boring married couple and all the insecure single girl jokes went to Brenda. Julie Kavner was getting all the laughs, so they realized Rhoda was only funny as a single woman and had them divorce. It never recovered in the ratings but it's possible it would've been canceled even sooner if they hadn't got rid of Joe.

[quote]That's because Sandy had a funny face,

Not to mention that Glass Eye

Sammy had a glass eye. Sandy does not.

[quote]Who did Viv play on RHODA? Was it a one-off or a recurring role?

Vivian Vance did a single episode of Rhoda in Season 2, Episode 12 "Friends and Mothers". I'll post a YouTube link to the full episode below.

Vivian played an Ad Exec and neighbor that Rhoda befriends and discovers she has much in common with in spite of their age difference. They have so much fun together that Rhoda's mother become jealous of their relationship. It's really well done and works on a lot of levels.

Vivian was wonderful, and it was kind of brilliant casting, a sort of homage, because the "Mary and Rhoda" TV relationship owed a debt to the original TV sitcom female pairing of "Lucy and Ethel". And both Valerie and Vivian had been brilliant in their respective supporting character roles.

One online blog says: Valerie Harper and the producers enjoyed the experience of working with Vivian Vance so much they considered offering her a regular on the series - but Vance had been diagnosed with cancer in 1973 and was too fragile for the weekly TV grind. She'd left that behind a decade ago as the co-star of the number 1 show in the nation, The Lucy Show. If it wasn't worth it to her then...

And the blogger opines that if Vivian had joined the Rhoda cast as regular, it could have changed the entire trajectory of the show and made it far more successful than it was. One of those questions to which we'll never know the answer.

But you can watch the episode and judge for yourself the chemistry they had. If nothing else, Vivian would've found Valerie far easier to work with and she would've been a great addition to a show with star who actually supported and encouraged her ensemble cast.

[quote]Sammy had a glass eye. Sandy does not.

Then why is Sandy always popping it out at parties when she gets drunk?

Vivian was not wonderful in that episode, she was awful and din't fit at all. And why did the camera keep going in for closeups?

Because her hippopotamus was too damn big.

R447 = Gary Morton

R447, I would agree and her line readings had too much Vivian Bagley in them. It was hard to picture what Rhoda Morgenstern saw in her as a close friend.

I loved Rhoda with Johnny Venture, a really funny character.

R445, David Groh is terrible in that episode but it's hard to tell if it's the actor or the character or both.

The Vivian Vance episode was very funny. She was an older lady who moves into Rhoda and Brenda's building, and becomes friends with "Rho and Bren". This annoys the living shit out of Ida, who sees her daughters, shopping, having lunch and hanging out with someone in her own age bracket (and yet they never want to spend time with her). Some very funny scenes with Viv and the great Nancy Walker.

Rhoda should have been better sequenced. A season or two of a single Rhoda working at the costume shop, followed by meeting her love and getting married at the end of the run. . They should have made her a more urban, hipper Mary Richards and Brenda the single wisecracking woman. They just didn't seem to know what to do with her.

Groh leaving hurt the show, but then Nancy Walker left for a whole year, and they added a whole bunch of new people and that's when the ratings really tumbled.

Then Mary and Rhoda did a tv special where they were living in NYC. What a drag that show was.

Perhaps the best "Phyllis" episode when Bess' boyfriend's parents are little people. A great exchange between Valerie's ex husband and Cloris takes place around 15:00.

I could never look at Nancy Walker the same after watching the end of "Murder by Death".

Ida

Brenda's boyfriend was played by "hold me David I'm scared" from One Day at a Time. And Ron Silver played another one.

Part of the problem with Rhoda is that they unnaturally empowered her in a manner that was off putting and not true to the character we met and fell in love with on MTM. She was all about saying no - which killed the storyline potential.

Don't forget me!

I have.

[quote] Then Mary and Rhoda did a tv special where they were living in NYC. What a drag that show was.

Was that the "Mary & Rhoda" movie from the 90s? God, that was embarrassing. That scene that stads out when Mary first spotted Rhoda getting out of a taxi and screams "RHODA" and the Joan Jett cover of the theme song. Awful.

Mary and Sue Ann being big sisters was hilarious and introduced us to Mack Phillips who said Mary was kind to her on the set.

Also, they kind of ripped off that plot later on The Golden Girls.

[quote]Part of the problem with Rhoda is that they unnaturally empowered her in a manner that was off putting and not true to the character we met and fell in love with on MTM.

This is true. And I bet they had a lot of conferences about who Rhoda would be.

On MTM, she was schlubby, yet funky and stylish, Jewish which worked well with Mary's perfect, beautiful, everything in place Episcopalian character. When they moved her to her own show, they felt they had to reimagine her to make her more palatable to sitcom audiences. I often wonder if they had left her as schlubby, artistic Rhoda if they would have had a better, and more interesting, show. Had they put her down in the middle of 1970s Greenwich Village, it may have been a better show. Perhaps she could have done work as a set designer or costume designer in one of the off-Broadway shows. The jokes between Ida and a funky Greenwich Village character would write themselves. And it would have been interesting if they introduced a gay character. All In The Family had introduced a drag queen (I think that character appeared three times on the show) and Alice had one episode with a gay man. I think the audience could have handled Rhoda having a bitchy gay friend to land some of the jokes.

R461, Buktenica would have been a better match with Rhoda but they were so intent on pairing her with some dream hunk that they didn't see what audiences saw. There was a brief flirtation with Rene Auberjonois as Rhoda's boyfriend as well.

It didn't matter that Valerie had lost weight and Rhoda had become something of a fashion plate. They totally changed the character. She was no longer the Rhoda we met on the MTM show. Even if she had changed the exterior, we were not shown that underneath, she was still schlubby Rhoda. She was someone we didn't know anymore. The only shows that gave us that, ironically, are the ones where Joe leaves her. She showed the vulnerability and likability we loved from the character on MTM.

Also, Valerie Harper became enamored of EST, and put some of that philosophy into Rhoda. One season, Rhoda is scary thing. For sure an eating disorder. Around season 3.

I always wonder why there aren't any real dance numbers from that era by Valerie on a variety show or something. When she first came to NYC she almost immediately was accepted in the Radio City corps de ballet. Later she had those chorus jobs.

Valerie Harper can be spotted in the chorus of the Broadway musicals Take Me Along with Jackie Gleason, Li'l Abner with DL fave Charlotte Rae, and most famously in Wildcat with Lucy Ball.

Yes I know, r470. But there aren't any actual dance numbers from the variety shows of the era or on the MTM show. I read her memoir but I can't remember if that's addressed at all. Mary would do her ballet warm-ups every day (I think on lunch break IIRC) and Valerie started joining her. Even Georgia got to do Steam Heat.

Why would they have fat Rhoda do a musical number? That would be the ultimate ridiculous plot device. BTW, Valerie sang and danced on "The Carol Burnett Show". This is ample reason why they didn't allow her to perform on MTM.

Even Beth Howland did better than Val in the musical department. Beth got Company on Broadway and the Housewife role in the televised version of Working.

I imagine during Wildcat, Val sat down with Lucille Ball and Lucy told her, "Kid, you'll never make it out of the chorus. Move over to sitcoms."

I didn't expect fat Rhoda to have a dance number, r472. But once she had dropped the weight (and joined Mary at the lunchtime barre), I was just curious what her reasoning was to not show off that particular talent at that point in her career. I haven't had a chance to watch r472 yet, so.....

And I'll never forget Lucille's look handing Val her Emmy when Val brought up being in the chorus of Wildcat....

Rhoda was never fat. She just looked like an average person who didn't starve herself

Next to Mary, everybody looked morbidly obese, r476.

Mary's diabetes took its toll on her for sure.

[quote]Rhoda was never fat. She just looked like an average person who didn't starve herself

True, but the costumer dressed her with heavy clothing and jewelry to give the assumption that she was a pudgy Jewish girl. Both Mary and Cloris are wearing clothes that emphasize their thin figures.

Mary could be absolutely vicious in person. She wasn't trying to be; it was just her natural demeanor.

I can remember the premiere like it was yesterday (I was 13). LOVED the first episode and even laughed at the Brandy Alexander joke even though I has no idea what that was.

Mary wore wigs and hair pieces throughout the series. Perhaps her anorexia created hair loss, and though she was sick with type 1 diabetes, Mary was severely underweight for most of the series. I cringe seeing her now in reruns.

[quote]Mary could be absolutely vicious in person. She wasn't trying to be; it was just her natural demeanor.

Back in the early 90s, she was named in the gossip columns. Her upstairs neighbors had redone their apartment and shifted a wall causing damage to Mary's apartment. Mary was quoted as saying, "I'm going for legal action. They won't get away with this just because of who I am" inferring that she thought her neighbors thought she was sweet Laura Petrie. It was the first time I realized the real MTM was more like Beth Jarrett than I had assumed.

[quote]Mary was severely underweight for most of the series.

But that fit in with the times. I remember many women saying that for lunch they would have just a carton of yogurt because they wanted to remain thin. And the 1970s brought on a fitness craze of everyone jogging and sweat pants became a fashion accessory.

There were two things that women tried to be in the 1970s. One was ultra thin. The other was that they tried to speak in a lower voice register because there were several actresses who had low, sultry voices at the time, they wanted voices like that gap toothed model/actress whose name I can't remember at the moment.

[quote]. I think the audience could have handled Rhoda having a bitchy gay friend to land some of the jokes.

Why is everyone looking at me?

One of THE dumbest episodes was when Lou promoted Murray over Mary. Anyone remember that shitty episode? Then Murray had to say, "Oh, no, Mary, I can't let a promotion come between our friendship." It was like, WTF? What producer experience does Murray have?

Murray should have been played by Paul Lynde.

R485, that was not a shitty episode because it showed Lou's sneaky side. At the end, he promotes Murray over Mary after an hilarious video mishap involving Sue Ann and pigs. Mary is stunned and then Murray realizes he can't take the producer job over Mary and decides to stay a writer. At the end, Lou says to the camera "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't."

Edie was a faithless tramp who walked out on a perfectly good, hairy backed man so she could pull an Ann Romano and "find herself". What a bitch!

Who was the actress who played Edie? She did a Golden Girls as well. Great, funny woman. Distinctive voice too.

It was a shitty episode because Murray didn't have producer experience. It never would have went down that way. Why not make Georgette the producer? or Phyllis?

The sunny, optimistic, easy, laid back 'seventies. That's the feeling I get from the MTM show. I was a kid at the time, of course. The reality was probably much different.

Nostalgia can be poisonous.

R451, the episode where Johnny's black back-up singers quit, because he wasn't paying them enough or whatever, was a take off of how everyone was saying the "Dawn" part of Tony Orlando and Dawn, were far more talented than Tony. One of the Dawn girls went onto some success in sitcoms, I remember she was on Carter Country, a show I haven't thought of years. It was generally well-liked though.

R492, Johnny's black back up singers were 2/3 or Bette Midler's Harlettes.

Edie was played by the fantastic Priscilla Morill.

[quote]One of the Dawn girls went onto some success in sitcoms

That's MISS Telma Hopkins to you. She was supposed to be the new Mrs. Cosby in Cosby's ripoff of that British sitcom (Was it One Foot in the Grave?). At the last minute, Cosby got cold feet and grabbed Phylicia Rashad again. Miss Telma was mighty pissed off about that.

Hutton, r483. Lauren.....

R483, you are correct, and thin was in. But not THAT thin. I know - I was one of those women - plus I had a medical condition that made it hard to hold weight (though nothing as dangerous as T1D). Drugs both legal and illegal helped Lauren Hutton (above). HOWEVER, Mary was dangerously thin in a way that made her look like she was going to collapse. Really.

Mary was fat.

In one episode Mary remarks that she is going on a diet because the scales showed "120 big ones" (her words) referring to her weight. MTM was at least 5"7" so 120 was thin to begin with. It sounded dumb even back then as though she wanted to be a skeleton. My straight brother never found Mary all that and could not understand why the audience was supposed to believe that every guy would prefer her over Rhoda. He thought Valerie Harper was much prettier than Mary and had a woman's curvy figure and a far more appealing personality.

Loved the Big Sisters episode, too. Any ep with Sue Ann was guaranteed to be a laugh riot.

Sue Ann - " I've got a little sister, too. And mine's black!"

Hahaha R482! It's like when Lucille Bluth expanded her bathroom into Lucille Ostero's kitchen!

Sheree North was so beautiful when she guest starred twice as Charlene, a love interest for Lou. And then in 1976, the show replaced her with Janis Paige, who was ten years older and looked it.

Sheree had a slutty vibe that made her an interesting romantic foil to Lou Grant.

Janis Paige was beige.

I don't think she was especially skinny.

Yeah, R499, most people prefer think Rhoda was prettier and had the sex appeal Mary didn't. She also seemed like a much more fun person to hang out with over uptight, overly polite Mary. But then I'm a New Yorka.

I agree!

Bess should have been brought back more.

Kathy Griffin said she always wanted to be the Rhoda, because she had funnier lines.

I think the only ones who preferred Rhoda over Mary were gay guys.

[quote]Sheree North was so beautiful when she guest starred twice as Charlene, a love interest for Lou. And then in 1976, the show replaced her with Janis Paige, who was ten years older and looked it.

Yeah, but I'm still alive, bitches!

Mary would have made an excellent Phyllis Rogers Stone.

I agree, r511.

I loved Ida.. cracked me up.

Mary as Phyllis and Doris Day as Sally. Follies could have been a great movie!

And it was actually considered and might have happened, r314!

Mary was in her '30s at the time. The movie was going to be Shirley MacLaine and Doris Day with Liz Taylor as Carlotta. Thank God it was never made as we already saw what Prince could do with a Liz Taylor musical in ALNM.

I would have loved if Sue Ann and B.E.D could have somehow done a scene together.

Chuckles the Clown is a one joke episode and one of the weakest of the series - as all of the last two season's were. The ONLY reason it and the others have been blown up out of proportion is because they're "men's episode." MTM was once a woman's show - with Rhoda and Phyllis - most of the episodes were about women and women's issues. Fade in, fade out, Rhoda and Phyllis are gone, and we got numerous male based shows, some good, many terrible. Straight men fell in love with the show, hence, the "Chuckles" episode elevated to a ridiculous plateau where it doesn't belong in relation to the series.

No, R503, actually you didn't.

R518 Good observation

I think the Chuckles episode only rises above due to MTM's great acting, especially in the funeral scene.

I was NOT beige!!!

I agree with the person who mentioned that Ted Bessell was still That Girl's boyfriend and it was too soon for him to become Mary's. Yet, seeing his MTM shows decades later I really liked him a lot in the role.

One of Rhoda's best suitors on her show was Judd Hirsch (pre-Taxi). Even though they were similar types, they were a fun and believable couple. They wrote him off in an absurd story line - he wouldn't sleep with Rhoda because he feared she wanted more than a casual relationship. Guys break it off AFTER sex, not before it, you nitwits.

I can see how the Rhoda show wanted her to find her prince charming in Joe, but Valerie later said her character became too "Sadie Sadie Married Lady" for it to work. I agree with her.

Does anyone remember Louise Lasser as the bank manager? Perhaps the best guest appearance (Nancy, Cloris and Betty don't count since they appeared multiple times) on MTM ever. She was damn funny and the writing was so good too. Sigh. Nostalgia.

Yes, Louise Lasser was always memorable! Loved her on “It’s A Living” and in the Todd Solondt’s film ‘Happiness’. Wish she had worked more.

[quote]Edie was played by the fantastic Priscilla Morill.

Priscilla Morill may have been a good actress, but I never understood why she had that faux British accent.

She sounded a lot like Madonna for a woman who lived in Minneapolis in the 1970s.

Miss Morrill does Martha.....

OMG....Straight men NEVER fell in love with the MTM Show.

Don't be ridiculous.

It was women and gays watching it THEN and now.

Jeesus...more people with terrible taste.

Season 6 & 7 had the Aunt Flo episodes, and "Mary's Delinquent" and Ted & Georgettes' Wedding and Lou & Sue Ann's Affair and Murray Producing the Happy Homemaker and Sue Ann Getting Fired from The HH and Having To Do The Puppet Show and Sue Ann's Sister and...

R465 has good ideas for how they should have done "Rhoda"...especially Rhoda in the Village working in theater with a gay pal or two.

And, they should have had her dating a lot in the first season but then finding a decent boyfriend and let that develop for half a season or so then have him end up being a putz and THEN Rhoda meets a rebound guy who eventually ends up being Mr. Right after a couple seasons of dating and scrapping and they get married in the very last episode.

Oh, and the future hubby also has a crazy mother played by some great old comedienne who gets into quarrels with Ida.

I hung on Rhoda's wall......

I hung on Alice Hyatt's wall.

[quote] Does anyone remember Louise Lasser as the bank manager? Perhaps the best guest appearance (Nancy, Cloris and Betty don't count since they appeared multiple times) on MTM ever.

She was great, but my all-time favorite was Barbara Colby as Mary's friend the dress designer who made her the horrible green dress.

Alice Hyatt was a DLer before there was DL, r532!

They tried to play if off like Joe was pressured into marrying Rhoda and felt trapped in the marriage but I don't remember her pressuring him in any way.

R535, actually, Joe wanted to live with Rhoda and she said essentially she needed to be married. Definitely pressure from a Jewish girl from the ultimate Jewish mother.

We have to cast this "Rhoda" in the Village

Paula Prentiss' apartment in NYC. After the intro.

Thank you R535 for clearing that up for me.

That still seems likes a weasely reason to bail on her. She was a good wife to him, I wish they had just killed him off instead of tarnishing his character like that.

Poor David Groh. He did his best with what he had to work with.

I meant R536.

Thanks for posting the He & She episode. It was quite. Noticed that the episode was directed by Jay Sandrich, who also directed the majority of the MTM episodes.

For R537 RHODA IN THE VILLAGE - Saturdays after MTM on CBS. Rhoda Morgenstern is back in NYC, living in Greenwich Village above her plant & flower shop. Her sister Brenda (Julie Kavner) works at the store, as does her mother Ida (Nancy Walker). It's a family affair because her brother Adam (Richard Lewis) is an investor in the store along with his high maintenance wife Rachel (Barbara Colby). Phyllis Lindstrom's brother Ben (Robert Moore) owns Uncle Ayml's, the piano boy bar next door. Romantically Rhoda's juggling two guys, her high school boyfriend Jacob and Joe Girard, the demo man who might break her heart.

Fuck yeah, I'd watch that

I'm in!

I'll get back to you after I'm done counting my Simpsons money.

_ Julie

Thanks Julie, but we can recast.

Laughing all the way to the bank sweetie!

[quote]Rhoda Morgenstern is back in NYC, living in Greenwich Village above her plant & flower shop.

I just can't see Rhoda plus flowers and plants. She's a Jew.

Can't she be dressing windows at a Bloomingdale's type department store? Or own a hat shop? Or as a designer in the garment district?

Show runner R542 here. R548, I was trying to continue the storyline started on MTM. Figured the storefront would bring people in and open up plot points. Also figured she could do events as a florist for weddings, funerals, etc. I'm open to other professions tho. Let's send the writer's assistant out for coffee and discuss it in the writer's room later today. However, hat shop isn't gonna happen. "Does anyone still wear hats?" Elaine Stritch. #justmadeasupergaythreadgayer

Or Rhoda could freelance in late 1970s New York. I see her at a personnel agency screening hoards of quirky NYC characters like I did...I don't know if these kinds of characters exist in New York anymore, they've been priced out or died off.

THE funniest Rhoda episode was her pretending to be Gary's girlfriend for his parents; his mother was Doris Roberts. Brenda had already agreed to play the part, so Gary had to call Rhonda 'Brenda' throughout the scene.

Doris Roberts: You have such lovely hands, dear. How old are they?

Gary: Ma!

Rhoda: No. that's ok. I'll tell if she will.

Doris: I'm 42.

Rhoda: I'm 27.

Doris: Deal.

They should do a Rhoda reboot.

Rhoda in the Village would have been great!

I'd expand the plant shop to include the funky antiques and vintage clothes that Rhoda had an eye for. There could be jokes and occasional plots around some of the more peculiar items and their suppliers. Instead of a doorman,Carlton could be a picker for Rhoda's shop.

R553, you're hired! Meet me in the writer's room tomorrow morning. Bring sharp pencils, because it's the 1970s. Love, R542

I'm available, people. Brenda recast, Rhoda's zany next door neighbor, a peppy employee at her store, her lesbian mechanic... I can be any or all of these things.

Give it some thought.

Ugh on the "plant shop" locale....not interesting or appealing enough.

Rhoda is the new design assistant to a big B'way designer...played by Holland Taylor. She's in a "lavender" marriage with hubby Louis Edmonds who is a fading ham actor.

Rhoda is the type who would let plants die. And she's not going to get her hands dirty.

Some of you really don't understand that character.

I don't know what show you were watching, R557, but Rhoda was earthy - she was not the prissy type

In Rhoda, Ron Silver (Gary) reminded me of Al Pacino, and Ray Buktenica (Benny) reminded me of Robert DeNiro.

No plants for Rhoda? Have you ever heard of a wandering Jew? Rhoda's Dendrun!

Remember the Mary Tyler Moore show where Mary dates a younger man and they go to a party and Rhoda says "I have brain cancer," and Big Rosie Greenbaum says, "I'm gonna rip the "M" right off your friends wall."

R561 Mary: Touch my "M" sweetie and your teeth go to Peoria.

A lot of men had actually touched Mary's "M".

You really have to watch out for those "innocent" types.

I have an "M"; found it at Ross and bought it.

The kitten that meows at the end of the closing credits is a parody of the roaring lion that appears at the beginning of MGM films.

Wow - thanks OP! who knew that?

I have 2 "B"s on my wall

Just about everyone knew that, R565

Oh god, this thread is going to go to part 2 isn't it?

This thread has EVERYTHING but the Gap Playlist troll.

[quote]I have 2 "B"s on my wall

Are you advertising that you do bareback, Bob?

This thread turns my world on with its smile.

I have melamine.

I eat off good china, r572.

I eat off your boyfriend's ass, R573

Spunk? I hate spunk.

I wear TAMPONS and PADS to the office on heavy flow days. I feel secure in my stretchaneeny pants suit.

I spunked on your boyfriend's ass after I ate it, R573

[quote]I wear TAMPONS and PADS to the office on heavy flow days.

Oh NO, Mary!

Our pastor says Tampons are the devil's little fingers.

Good girls don't wear Tampons!

I doubt Mary Tyler Moore or Mary Richards had a need for those things, most anorexics don't.

Mary very occasionally filled out.

Gavin MacLeod is about the most Canadian name you could come up with yet - he's not Canadian

By then she was menopausal, R580.

MTM was always about 3 - 4 years older than Mary Richards.

But in the Season 5, Mary hit the wall in terms of aging - she looked older than she did in Ordinary People.

She was no longer believable as a young girl just trying to "make it on her own" in the big city.

[quote] This thread has EVERYTHING but the Gap Playlist troll.

Please don't summon that.....that THING!

New thread for when this one fills us

I wanted Mr. Grant's spunk.

He may hate it, but I swallow.

[quote]He may hate it, but I swallow.

So did that sweet Martha Dudley.

And you didn't see Lou asking her out again.

That old bitch GUMMED him.

I bet Sue Ann did too

Yeah, but Sue Ann washed his socks with lemon juice

I bet Lou's cock is as big and meaty as he is.

Unaired episodes:

"Mary Queefs" (S6 E27)

"Ted's Tearoom Tapdance"

"Murray is a Big Mary"

Lou and the Case of the Pendulous Dong

"Phyllis Whips Lars"

Joyce Bulifant did not merit her own book. I mean, really.

Buh

Bye

Now!