Were Joe and Norma lovers?

He was her gigolo.

Her backdoor lover.

All offscreen of course.

Of course they were. There wasn’t any need to show them fucking. It was very clear. He even said, “I haven’t been keeping MYSELF lately,” saying that he was her kept man. She bought him things and he fucked her in exchange.

[quote]He even said, “I haven’t been keeping MYSELF lately,” saying that he was her kept man.

Wasn't Norma broke?

a bit cosy...

No, she had old Hollywood money.

The scene where he gives in to her—when she embraces him with her bandaged hands —could not be clearer.

No, they were not lovers although yes, she was obsessed with him romantically.

Yes, those two were fucking, we could tell you stories that would curl your hair! Also, Joe used to eat out Max's ass for $4.99 plus tax, Joe said it was as fresh as a daisy.

r7 = Max von Mayerling

Have you ever dried someone lovingly with a towel that you weren't sleeping with?

(Aside from a dog or a child.)

I remember watching a stand up comedian one day and he said, “you hear a lot about crazy ex girlfriend stories, mostly funny ones at that, but hardly ever any crazy ex boyfriend ones. Ever wonder why?” People laughed and he paused.

“Because most women don’t make it out alive.”

I don't think love had anything to do with it.

"Pumping, pumping, pumping!" r13

Next you'll be asking if Bert Pierce and Mrs. Biederhof were getting it on.

Wasn't the man servant supposed to be in love with her or something?

Have you never heard Betty Buckley or Diahann Carroll or Glenn Close (i pity you) sing....." Shut up, I'm rich Not some platinum blonde bitch."?

He was her first husband, r16

I’m alarmed by the lack of viewing comprehension demonstrated by some posters.

Madonna reminds me alot of Norma. Though I find Norma more sympathetic.

^ and better looking.

R18 oh thanks. It's been a very long time since I have seen the film.

This thread makes me want to rewatch the film

Is Norma supposed to be a borderline? Her poor temper, need for validation, and attention getting suicide attempt seemed to indicate bpd.

I wish they'd rescore the original film with Lloyd Webber's music. The score to the Wilder film is very Noir but unmoving... I liked the bigness of ALW's score.... it couldn't be transposed as was obviously but I'd like to see it arranged, more out of curiosity than anything.

I don't think she was mentally ill at the beginning of the film... she knew her place in the modern world - albeit she resented it - she knew Garbo was Garbo but she was suffering the impacts of isolation... she was occupying a world between real and imagined, nursing her dream/obsession about a return... she had a psychotic break when Gillis took it away from her and then proposed to leave her alone with the knowledge. That's when she snapped and probably wasn't able to come back to cope with the knowledge of her fate.

The crazy script that Norma is writing, her belief that de Mille will direct it, the chimp funeral, those are all strong tells that Norma is very unwell from the beginning of the film. In her mind, Norma is still a great star with millions of fans. Norma is quite shrewd about money, but she’s not sane.

Joe serviced her in the same bed as previosly had John Gilbert, Adolf Menjou, Lionel Barrymore, Rod La Rocque, and Ricardo Cortez.

[quote] The crazy script that Norma is writing, her belief that de Mille will direct it...

So what you're saying is that 99% of the people currently living in Los Angeles are mentally ill.

I guess Joan Crawford became the real life Norma Desmond. As crazy as Crawford was, I always found her slightly more sympathetic than say, Madonna. Unlike, Madonna her beginnings really were very humble and she did not receive much support from her family, financial or otherwise.

I’d go with 99.9 %

Nobody gives a fuck about Joan Crawford OR Madonna.

Sunset Boulevard is a great movie. Yes, they are fucking, and the fact they are fucking is an important part of the story.

OP, you do not sound like a grownup, and it would appear to me that you might be 12 years old.

It's interesting to watch this movie in the context of the present. I guess Norma Desmond is supposed to be some kind of monstrous old hag. But Gloria Swanson was beautiful at the age of 50, and Bill Holden looks like he's in his mid to late 30s. Such a pairing would not be a big deal in the 21st century. And if you had a place to live, nice clothes, and a beautiful woman to fuck, why would Joe Gillis complain? Maybe Norma wasn't that great in the sack.

As classic as it is, I would like to see this one remade, just to see how it would play with a director and actors with a modern sensibility. Same time frame, same everything... just thought through with the perspective of the here and now.

Joe was allowing Norma to. be his sugar mama., and he hated himself for it.

R34 oh yes, that would be amazing. Anyone have any Casting ideas?

Lovely Julian Morris as Joe.

Maybe Julianne Moore as Norma?

I'm just sick that I'm far too young.

You don't need a remake, just slap on the GoPros and follow me around.

Joe couldn’t get an erection at the time.

He was severely depressed and facing complete rejection at every turn. He could’ve left Norma’s mansion to root that bimbo at the studio but she had a bigger wage packet than poor sad unemployed Joe.

William Holden was so handsome in that movie.

No wonder Norma would pay for some of that action.

[quote]Joe serviced her in the same bed as previosly had John Gilbert, Adolf Menjou, Lionel Barrymore, Rod La Rocque, and Ricardo Cortez.

But not me! Never me!

It is ironic that Gloria Swanson was a silent screen star who had essentially retired with the advent of talkies, and then had a return to acting with this movie. The film was mimicking real live, or vice verse. I can’t figure-out which. That alone makes it fascinating to see.

[quote]Madonna reminds me alot of Norma. Though I find Norma more sympathetic.

Not to mention younger.

Jamie Dornan fucking Melanie instead of her daughter.

Joe's problem was that he was in love with what's-her-face, and he didn't like living under the thumb of Ms. D.

I think there must have been lots of guys like this around Hollywood at the time: all the older female stars (like Norma Shearer, Bette Davis, Lucille Ball) ended up in marriages with broke nobodies who were happy with the arrangement. Joe's problem was that he wanted a career of his own.

Joe was a failure.

Wilder said he was ‘an American putz’.

After Holden became good box-office, Wilder had to give all those American Putz roles to goofy-faced Jack Lemon.

They should make a remake with Armie Hammer as Joe. I'm going to have to think about the female lead.

Madonna is 10 years older than Norma was.

Gloria Swanson was not Norma Desmond, save for the photos and footage from her early films, and in the film. See her on Dick Cavett- she was a vegetarian starting in the 40s (Garbo was too), designed dresses, and was a fashion plate.

[quote]Madonna is 10 years older than Norma was.

Really? She looks much older than that.

I think the movie is perfect as it is. It shouldn't be regurgitated by the hacks who are in Hollywood.

OP's question and initial post are puzzling... how could he/she not see that Joe and Norma were screwing is bewildering. OP, how did you not catch the fact that not only are they screwing, but they are doing that with Norma's first husband (Max) living in the house! It's even creepier because Max is in love with Norma. God, you are so dense. Oh and then there's the incredibly 'subtle' scene in the men's clothing store - even the salesman knows Joe is Norma's gigilo.

To the others who want to remake the film, oh please. It's perfect the way it is.

Who gives a shit about that hag Madonna? How sad that she's compared to, included in the same sentence, etc as Gloria Swanson, a real talent.

CZJ and Chris Pine would be so amazing in a film version of ALW's musical. It would fulfill the idea of a modern approach to the material while also keeping it period-set. I'm so sad it never happened with Babs (or M or G), but CZJ would be so perfect nowadays, especially if she deigned to de-glam and look a hard 50. Yes, I know the DL jokes, but she has old school glamor and is the right age so it isn't ridiculous (as it would be with Babs/Hugh Jackman or M/Chris Pine). G doing it now would be ludicrous, even with Hugh, despite her begging Ryan Murphy to get it greenlit (as recently as April). Anna Kendrick would be a great Betty, too (and she and Pine had great chemistry in ITW).

Well, R54 has stated our boundaries.

The better question is, were Norma and the monkey lovers like Wilder said?

A few years ago, ALW was asked in an interview if he'd want Madonna to do a film version and he said he didn't think she'd do it (implying she wouldn't want to play "old"). Dodged that bullet.

R57, he claimed it was a joke that Swanson took seriously, but clearly Joe is replacing the chimp.

Actually R56, I am fun at parties. i just don't understand some of the threads and subsequent replies.

I didn't "state our boundaries," I explained why I think OP is baffling.

Too bad Montgomery Clift turned down the role of Joe. He was more suited at playing a confused young gigolo at the time. Holden was good, but looked too old and experienced to draw any sympathy for his predicament.

Well, I think R54 is right.

[quote]Is Norma supposed to be a borderline? Her poor temper, need for validation, and attention getting suicide attempt seemed to indicate bpd.

I watched the film last night and commented to my husband that Norma would be diagnosed BPD today. A suicide attempt following rejection by a lover is itself diagnostic, practically speaking. Of course, Norma would’ve been called tempestuous at the time. We’ve lost some poetry with the advancement of psychiatry.

I noticed something new (to me) last night. I remembered the scene where Norma entertains Joe by imitating a bathing beauty and Charlie Chaplin. What I didn’t remember is the demented music, like an off kilter calliope, playing as she performs. It makes the scene grotesque and is one of the crueler moments in a very cruel film.

I think that Sunset Boulevard may be the greatest film ever made. It is a masterpiece start to finish, complex, entertaining, beautifully designed and shot.

And the turning point in their relationship, the point where Joe starts sleeping with Notma, is the scene following her suicide attempt. Joe basically surrenders out of pity, and the scene ends as he bends toward her in bed.

Norma liked it up the ass.

"Happy New Year, Darling..."

It may diminish Norma to diagnose her at bpd. Wilder tells outright (by having Holden tell us) that Norma's experience of being endlessly indulged and adored, of being the most wonderful thing imaginable--a star! a celebrity!-- is what has destroyed her.

[quote]CZJ and Chris Pine would be so amazing in a film version of ALW's musical.

Sorry, but I only play lead roles. And Betty hardly has any songs, so it would be a waste of my talents.

^LOL

Sweet Gesu, OF COURSE! He was her boytoy, for heaven's sake!

I wouldn't be surprised if Joe and Norma never fucked, or had only fucked a few brief and unsatisfying times.

Because Norma isn't someone who listens to her body's needs, she listens to the fantasy of The Great Star Being Fabulous that's constantly playing in her head. When she parades Joe around she's thinking "Behold The Great Star living out an Immortal Romance", not "My hole is hungry". And it's not like Joe is attracted to her, he shrinks away when she touches him. If they ever got it on, it's so that Norma could assure herself that the fantasy had at least some basis in reality.

That's the thing about Norma, the fantasy is always there. She doesn't actually move into her castle in the sky until the very end, but it was always around.

Thanks r71, for not dismissing my "no sex" theory out of hand, like many others on this thread ...

[quote] "My hole is hungry".

Have you ever met a woman?

LOL, R73... I had the same thought but not the energy to argue it...

Isn't it bad enough that Andrew Lloyd Webber cranked out a shitty, half assed, second rate musical based on this great film? We do NOT NEED a remake of this classic in any way, shape or form. CJZ my flaming ASS! SOME THINGS SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE!!!

And yes, I think Joe threw her a mercy fuck on New Years Eve but that was it.

OP/R72, I'm curious as to why you would think that they weren't having sex.

R76, he doesn't think so, he's just posting nonsense to start a thread.

Every single day, someone starts half a dozen dimwit threads of the, "I'd like to write a children's book and sell it to Disney. Is that hard?" type.

This is just one of them.

Were Michael Jackson and his monkey fucking?

I'd think yes

And Norma at least went for younger though not young men.

As opposed to Jackson who had more boys than the entire catholic clergy combined.

If this story is ever remade, I'd really have to be remade with some kind of big changeup or twist.

Like make Norma into Norman Desmond, and make it a gay story! Or change the era, make Norma an actress who was known for playing a perfect housewife on 1950s TV and Joe an 80s Yuppie Scum, can you imagine June Cleaver shooting her lover at the finale? Now there's a contrast in eras for you! Or make the musical, and move it from 1950 to the Mad Men era, which will allow for more fabulous fashions, more slick modernism, and an older Norma.

The important thing is to have two eras that contrast radically, but which are only a few decades apart. I'm afraid you can't really set the story now, 1988 and 1978 just weren't as insanely different as Hollywood in 1920 and Hollywood in 1950.

Joan Collins and her husband can star in the next one.

Norma isn't totally stuck in the past. She wears expensive contemporary fashions as suits a wealthy stylish 50 year old woman..

That's the thing, R81, she has one foot in the present and one foot in the past until the very end. She wears contemporary clothes, but her body language and pop culture references are from 1920 Hollywood. She doesn't loose all contact with reality until the very end, when she's finally wearing a 1920s look, and behaves like she's really in a silent movie.

The contemporary clothes were Gloria Swanson's idea, the original idea had been to have her wearing 1920s clothes through the whole film. I think Gloria was right and I'm glad she won her point, if it's not clear that Norma is at least partially in touch with reality then the ending has less impact.

The contemporary clothes were no doubt at Gloria Swanson's insistence. She was little more than a lantern jawed clotheshorse for her whole career. Her performance as Desmond is interesting, but cartoon creepy. I don't think she ruined the film but I believe others could have played it with more insight and nuance.

Wikipedia's account of the casting is fascinating but a bit too long to cut and paste.

Mae West and Marlon Brando? Mary Pickford? It was George Cukor who finally suggested Swanson, who should have been the obvious choice from the beginning. Her career and life had many interesting parallels with Norma's.

[quote] R54: ...how could he/she (OP) not see that Joe and Norma were screwing is bewildering.

Might OP be a younger person who is accustomed to seeing relationships overtly depicted on film as they are in movies today? Perhaps he/she is unaccustomed to the subtlety used in older films? I’ll admit, that older films often do leave relationships to the imagination.

But remember the the narration as she descends the stairs: "Life, which can be strangely merciful, had taken pity on Norma Desmond. The dream she had clung to so desperately had enfolded her."

She was sane the whole time.... if isolated and largely in a self imposed purgatory that allowed her to believe she could accomplish the return that was the thing that mattered most to her. Even when she's pleading with him not to leave her world she's still realistic about life.... she tries to bribe him: 'What is you want? I'll give you anything you want. What is it? Money?' She snaps when Joe punctures her dream fatally.

The narration... as a side note, I always thought the camera guy was hot and handsome and I found the revulsion and pity on Hedda Hopper's face quite poignant.... true acting when you consider how nice old Hedda was... but poignant.

I think Norma intellectually knew she was older than Joe but in her head, she still saw the same young beauty who'd had any man she wanted, so of course it was a matter of time until he would be had. Her suicide attempt never seemed very serious to me, more of a way to garner sympathy. She knew what she was doing all along.

I find it hard to believe that anyone shot in the back (first shot) just continues walking.

R89, agreed! I love this film and find it to be almost perfect. My only two quibbles are these: 1) when they are interrogating Norma upstairs in her bedroom, the two detective's delivery of their lines is so flat that it takes me out of the story. 2) Joe Gillis gets shot and keeps walking? What the hell? He seems to be experiencing very little pain for a guy who just got shot.

Gloria Swanson was only 50 years old during the filming of "Sunset Boulevard".

R89, He was staggering, not walking.

Me again, R89,

R90, there's an old film that I can't remember the name of, but Edward G Robinson has a scene where he's been shot by his wife or girlfriend, but pretends that he hasn't been and has like a 5 minute conversation with her. I always wondered that audiences in the 1930s would believe such guff.

Who do you think could have played it with more insight and nuance? And then give it that baroque, grotesque yet sympathetic ending?

One of the strengths of the film—often commented on—is that it shows a contrast in acting styles, the collusion of Old Hollywood and New Hollywood. You wouldn’t want a subtle Method-acted Norma. Norma needs to be flamboyant, stylized, scary.

[quote]I find it hard to believe that anyone shot in the back (first shot) just continues walking.

Don't you find it harder to believe he could narrate the entire film while lying dead at the bottom of a swimming pool?

No, but I did marvel at his diction, under the circumstances.

Think he gave it to her one or twice, her demands.

The idea of Holden banging anyone in glorious black and white makes me hard as that stiff dead monkey!

Excellent movie. Perfect cast and story.

Montgomery Clift was Billy Wilder's first choice to play Joe Gillis. I cannot even picture him in the role, Holden was outstanding.

Clift did well acting with fabulous actresses playing crazy; 'Suddenly Last Summer,' for example.

But Holden was a stud.

In "Wait Until Dark", Richard Crenna converses normally with Audrey Hepburn until he collapses and we see a knife in his back.

I believe it was more than a new years eve mercy fuck . after that, norma had the pool opened, and the scene with joe getting out of the where norma proceeds to dry his back - very familiar and relaxed on both their parts - and why oh why are so many interested in remaking, recasting, adding music, taking away music...etc... This is one of the finest movies ever made --- i doubt any reimagining would create an improved product. Pick a crappy movie to reinvent... the only reinvention i tolerate of sunset blvd is carol burnetts version 😀

Since you mention it...

Yes, Joe was Norma’s kept man. As stated previously, her suicide attempt was not genuine, but a tool, a tactic she used to break down Joe’s last bit of self respect, self worth. She knew exactly what she was doing and she succeeded in her machinations.

I don’t think being kept bothered Joe as much as knowing others knew he was Norma’s kept boy did. That scene in the men’s shop were Norma was buying him everything and the salesman passed the comment to Joe “if the lady’s buying, take the vicuña” was his way of letting Joe know it was clear he was kept. This explains Joe’s angry outburst to the comment. They may not of shown Joe and Norma in bed together, but in many ways it was made clear that they were in fact lovers.

Regarding the casting, some of the women and men originally approached for the roles turned down the script because of the nature of the relationship between Norma and Joe.

As for Gloria Swanson, she was not a “real life Norma Desmond” at all! Their only common thread was that both careers had peaked in the 20’s - but while Gloria moved on, Norma never did. I vaguely remember seeing a clip of Gloria talking about Norma from one of the chat shows (Cavett or Merv I think) when asked about it she said something like “I’ve known plenty of real life Normas - Hollywood is full of them!”

For me it’s hard to imagine anyone else in these roles - from that time anyway. Sure, you can always wonder “what if Mary Pickford or Mae West was Norma?” or “what if Clift or Brando was Joe?” But for me it’s pointless as I view this film as classically cast.

Regarding a remake or update - I don’t think an update would work. I can’t picture a star from the 50’s living in obscurity yet wealthy in the 80’s and having the script/dialogue work. It tends to veer towards something like the “Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?” remake with the Redgrave sisters. If one was determined tho, I think a remake true to the time of the original could work better. Casting though would still be an issue.

For the poster up above who suggested a gay remake - that could be interesting! Someone like Ricky Martin as a Ramon Navarro type, but maybe the Joe character is a bit more mercenary thinking he can get his break via the Ramon character; Max would still be the Ramon type’s first love who had to be hidden so acted as his butler/valet and while Ramon moved on, Max never did and waited always thru the string of lovers in the hopes Ramon will come back to him. Max even warns the Joe character what will be expected of him, but Joe ignores thinking some charm and flirtatious behavior will work the trick - but like in the original, while it won’t be explicitly shown, we’ll know when Joe finally succumbs. Not sure how the final scene would work though - maybe he’s dressed for a Ben-Hur or The Shiek type scene? Hmmmm...

Ok - clearly I’m way too bored tonight after writing all this! lol

I think SB is a classic, beautifully written and directed, sharp in its observations, superbly acted...and I don't like it one bit.

[quote] In "Wait Until Dark", Richard Crenna converses normally with Audrey Hepburn until he collapses and we see a knife in his back.

I think you might be wrong here. It's been a while since I saw the movie, but as I recall, the knife was not in his back when he started the conversation and it was only at he end that it was... and the audience realizes what that means.

Glorious Gloria in 1981, with Baba Wawa:

I remember reading that a young actor once asked Holden for career advice and Holden responded something like, "Well, first you get yourself a script like "Sunset Boulevard".

I think the musical is one of ALW's better shows. It's not perfect, but I think a film version of that has the potential to be excellent. I do think Glenn Close is too old for the role now, though. Then again, the idea of moving the story up a decade or so and added another decade to Norma as well could make sense. It could also deal with the decline of the studio system itself in the 60's. Can you imagine what Norma would think of films like Easy Rider or Midnight Cowboy?

When you think about it, there's nothing really period specific about the story that says the story must take place in the 50's - it just needs to be a time when a silent film start could conceivably still be alive.

With a ton of respect to Gloria Swanson, who was great she was also way over the top in some parts... I think a little restraint in the closing scenes would have delivered a heart breaking performance. Her collapse bordered on hamminess, to me, even though I think overall it was a terrific performance. But that's why I would like to see it done again... a little less of the stagey film noir that characterizes much of it, a little more nuance.

You couldn't move it past the early fifties. She'd be so old no one could watch the character and take it seriously. She'd just be a doddering old woman. You could eliminate the silent aspect and just make it the story of a has been who won't give up, but what's Madonna for then?

A smart analysis of the film:

What if she were a Debbie Reynolds-esque contract player unable to come to terms with the decay of the studio system, the death of her style of acting, and not willing to degrade herself into making "dirty pictures." She could try and stage a comeback with a splashy movie musical in a role she's too old for and she can't sing anymore. It could be like a Streisand/Gypsy thing.

R115, that sounds like 'Valley of the Dolls.'

Thanks for playing.

I thought Valley of the Dolls was about Ethel Merman. Ethel seemed to know her lot in life and knew she'd never quite make it on film. She never seemed delusional. Maybe a bit bitchy to some, but never straight-out nuts like Norma.

Here's an only slightly off-topic old TV clip. It's a scene from a Broadway musical version that Swanson commissioned for herself in the 1950s. Titled Boulevard!, it was completely finished and ready to go into rehearsal when Paramount suddenly pulled the rights. Swanson was devastated. There's also exists a demo recording of the full score which is easily found on CD by googling.

In this musical version, the ending is considerably softened. Norma gives her blessing to Joe's relationship with Betty, and as they depart Norma quietly resigns herself to her previous life.

Gosh, she was great.

Wow! That musical's new ending sounds like an awful idea - like something a studio would pitch to "fix" the original script so people don't leave the theater with a bad taste in their mouths.

"When you think about it, there's nothing really period specific about the story that says the story must take place in the 50's - it just needs to be a time when a silent film start could conceivably still be alive. "

Actually, it could work in all sorts of eras, the only requirement is that there be a huge contrast between 30 years ago and the time it's set. There was a huge contrast between the 1920s and 1950s, both culturally, and within the film industry. But that's not the only time there's been a huge contrast...

I suggested above that Norma could have played June Cleaver-type housewife on 1950s TV, while Joe was yuppie scum from the 1980s; those two characters would be 30 years apart in age, but from different cultures, different worlds. You could also have a corseted Victorian lady stuck in 1895 meet a uke-playing Sheik from 1925. You could have a late sixties rock star living like it's still the Summer of Love, meeting a Joe who wants to be the next Kurt Cobain (and succeeding in one way hur hur hur). Hell, you could have some super-religious woman living in an isolated castle like it's still 1335 and the Black Death hasn't hit Europe, meeting the Joe of 1365 who scandalizes her by being all but atheistic because he's grown up in a world dominated by The Plague. Etc.

I get what you’re saying R121, and agree to a point. But I think why SB only works in its specific time period goes back to the character of Norma Desmond. In SB, she was the biggest movie star of her day - making the studio and herself millions, known and adored throughout the world; but with the advent of talkies, her career and fame went away. So now we find her living well in splendid isolation in her mansion, and forgotten by the town she made. I can’t think of a catalyst that would work to take someone who was “the biggest star” to obscurity like the switch from silent to talkies, if you set SB in another, later decade.

As for Gloria’s over the top final scene, I think that goes back to how silent pictures were acted - they were very over the top in expression, and movement. Like Norma said, “we didn’t need voices, we had faces” - so with Norma slipping permanently into the delusion that she is a star again, it made sense to me how that scene went and how she played it.

"I can’t think of a catalyst that would work to take someone who was “the biggest star” to obscurity like the switch from silent to talkies, if you set SB in another, later decade. "

TV stars of the 1950s did tend to fade fast and completely. In the 1950s Danny Thomas and Jackie Gleason were the biggest stars of the era, everyone who had a TV adored them, but their careers faded fast after their hit shows ended and by the eighties nobody under the age of 40 knew who they were. Same for rock stars, most of them fade into obscurity and stay there, even if they were once on top of the world.

I always thought so. That is why she was so crazy about him.

I think the word is eccentric? She was sane part of the time and crazy the rest of the time but they were for sure, fucking.

[quote] In SB, she was the biggest movie star of her day - making the studio and herself millions, known and adored throughout the world; but with the advent of talkies, her career and fame went away. So now we find her living well in splendid isolation in her mansion, and forgotten by the town she made.

And this is where the film rolls into bullshit territory. It was literally impossible to make millions if you were JUST a silent movie star: there simply wasn't enough time from the beginning of movies being popular to the advent of talkies for starts to have made that much money. Gloria Swanson, of course, made the jump. But lots of silent stars from that era who had shit voices or couldn't really act ended up in poverty

^^stars, not starts

[quote] It was literally impossible to make millions if you were JUST a silent movie star:

However she wasn't JUST a movie star. When she was making the big money from the movies she invested wisely in real estate and oil. Not to mention what she might have gotten from her several marriages.

From her marriage to her butler, certainly...

But even in the time sense. You're saying Norma Desmond was a silent movie star and not a talkie star--I believe that is what we are expected to believe for the story to work. ND and GL are obviously the same age. GS was born in 1899; the first talkie was in 1927; but by 1930 everyone was doing talkies (like Joan Crawford). Are we really supposed to believe that the great Norma Desmond, at the age of 30 or 31, still a young, attractive woman, never did a talkie? That she was a great star but totally quit her acting career--to devote all of her time to becoming a weirdo--though she still lived in town and knew the same production people and was still totally famous.

(See what I mean by bs?)

^^^GS, not GL

R123 - I get what you’re saying, but they didn’t become recluses. They did the talk show circuit, occasionally TV appearances as guests or in their own specials, showed up on the Dean Martin Roasts, etc.. So while they may not have been current stars anymore, they were still known and made it their business to keep their name/face/fame out there, you know?

You’re 100% correct R126 - most silent era actors who couldn’t make the switch to talkies were forgotten and if the couldn’t find another career, died in sad circumstances. But the character Norma wasn’t just another silent movie actress, she was one of the big if not the biggest star of the era. Using Gloria Swanson as an example - she was offered a $1 million contract in the 20’s, which would be near $12 million today. While I agree it was rare, but given Norma’s backstory it is entirely believable she would have made a fortune and as pointed out in the movie and here, invested it to make even more money.

Insomniac,

But then consider my post at R130.

Let's say she was GS, the only woman in silent films to be paid $1 million, it seems unlikely that (given the timeframe) she would have been spent her young adulthood doing absolutely nothing in Hollywood, though living there, while her successful peers (Crawford, Shearer, Garbo) who were just a few years younger than she was all made the jump.

R130, you know next to nothing about the silent era and the transition to sound films.

FYI sound films didn't just take over overnight, from 1927 to 1930 both silent films and talkies were released, and many of the "talkies" had just one scene with sound and were otherwise silent. Most talkies of that era were godawful, amateurish things that are unwatchable today, the first good sound films started coming around 1932. And the stars of the Silent Screen didn't vanish overnight, some kept making silent and most gave the talkies a try, and most kept working until 1930 or after. But few lasted longer than that, sound films and new acting styles meant that a new crop of movie stars came in and with a few exceptions like Janet Gaynor and Greta Garbo, most of the old silent stars faded away.

Regarding money, the important thing is this: Did a silent screen star lose all their money in the Crash of 1929 and the Great Depression? That would matter a LOT more than how much was earned during the 1920s! If Norma had invested better than most of her fellows, then sure, she could be wealthy in 1950 whether or not she'd earned millions back in the day.

[quote] you know next to nothing about the silent era and the transition to sound films.

I love when a poster starts with a sweeping, unsubstantiated generalization... and then goes on to contribute nothing of value.

Anyone who thinks the first sound film was made in 1927 knows nothing about the history of American film. Experimental sound films go back to 1894 and sound films were released commercially in the early 1920s. The industry made the move towards more sound films after The Jazz Singer became the first full-length hit sound film in 1927 (and even The Jazz Singer was mostly a silent film with some sound sequences). But sound films didn't come out of nowhere.

Here is the first known sound film, The Dickson Experimental Sound Film. The sound was recorded on a synchronized disk. I think DLers will enjoy this.

R126 / R133 - I totally see your point, and you are right - the stars you mentioned who made the crossover to talkies succeeded, so why would a character like Norma Desmond not? There are of course all sorts of reasons this happened in real life to silent era stars. If you think of the biggest silent movie actresses - Lillian Gish, Mary Pickford, Mabel Normand, Clara Bow, etc. - they were never the big movie stars in the talkies as they were in the silent, if they even were able to crossover. Many of the Golden Era stars, if they had a background in silent film came from the second tier or bit players, the really big stars pretty much were remembered as silent movie stars.

I don’t think it’s particularly important to the film why Norma didn’t crossover since the character was a composite - a little bit of Mary Pickford, a bit of Clara Bow, etc. - of that type of star. Her name wasn’t spoken of or really known at the time of the movie, but the mention of her would get an “oh yeah, I wonder what happened to her?” or “oh you know what I heard...” types of responses. She wasn’t at the forefront of the public's mind but there was still a curiosity about Norma Desmond, just like there was about the old silent film actresses at that time.

That’s part of the reason I don’t think an updated version could work. There was no catalyst like going from silent to talkies that would explain why the biggest movie star in the world is, 20-30 years later, a forgotten recluse. Even when say musicals or westerns went out of fashion, those stars stayed in the public eye. The only recluses I’m recalling right now would be Greta Garbo, and many years later, Marlene Dietrich (even though Marlene didn’t become a recluse until she retired to her Paris apartment in her late 60’s or early 70’s).

Am I making sense, or am I just rambling?

Swanson starred in only two hit sound films: her first, The Trespasser, in 1929. and Sunset Boulevard. She followed up The Trespasser with 4 or 5 flops and by the mid 1930s here early film career was over. She moved to New York in the late 30s and concentrated on radio, stage work and later, television She also founded and ran many companies and organizations. During WWII, some of her organizations were responsible for saving the lives many European refugees. She was a brilliant and fascinating woman and never at a loss for something to do.

Joe and norma looked the same age lol they should have either cast a much younger looking actor or more haggard looking older woman.

R138 reminds me of something I have heard said about Gloria Swanson more than once - that Joe Kennedy helped/advised her how to invest her money which enabled her to live well her whole life. Don’t know if it’s true or not as she lost a ton of money on Queen Kelly (because Kennedy pulled out funding?) - but who knows!

Anyone else ever heard that?

Joe Kennedy was her sugar daddy for several years, that's well known.

R139 Swanson was afraid Holden was too old for the part. He also drank a lot during filming and looked older than he was.

R137, there are probably thousands of has-beens in the LA Basin, people who once had a hit song or a hit TV show or a series of hit films and they were world-famous for a little while, and most of them have been 99% forgotten.

Most aren't recluses, who can afford to be a recluse! They're either still working in their field of choice at a different level, trying to put together a comeback, or working in other fields. Some have completely left the entertainment field, and own businesses or have new careers, others pay the rent with the occasional fan convention appearance or low-end autograph show.

Norma was a recluse by her own choice. She could afford to do what she wanted, and if she didn't want to re-learn everything she knew about acting when sound came in then she could afford to retire. It's unlikely that she'd been sitting in the same house since 1928 planning the comeback of silent films, she probably married a few times and traveled and did other things, the house on Sunset Blvd. was where she ended up when she decided that nothing interested her as much as the fantasy of becoming a silent film star again.

R140 -- Joe Kennedy pulled out? He never did with me!

OP here.

What really got me thinking, and what prompted me to start this thread, were all the news reports about the Ronell affair. It seemed that there was some small parallel between that clusterfuck and the Norma-Joe dynamic in Sunset Boulevard. Older, histrionic woman; younger, vulnerable man; imbalance of power; etc.

It also came out that Avital and Nimrod never actually engaged in sex, despite her thousands of nauseating and sexually suggestive messages to him. So yes, it is possible to have a very strange, fucked up relationship sans sex.

I think his willingness to take so much from her over the course of the film, the insinuation about the shocking weirdness of her former husband/butler/chauffeur moving him in the house closer to her boudoir, the subtle ways he doesn't correct people who hint at the assumed arrangement, means he was giving back something for what he was getting and it wasn't just accompaniment for Sunday drives, if you know what I mean.

They already re-made SUNSET BOULEVARD with Madonna. It was that late-90's MTV special where she and Rupert Everett took a limo down to the Lower East Side and she went into all the old apartment buildings and bodegas she lived in when starting out (which clearly were inhabited by different people) and, in expensive clothes, face-lift and a fake English accent, asked everyone, "Do you-u-u rememba' m-e-e-e?"

Norma would've slept with the paper boy if she'd subscribed.

Big stars... and Norma was one... made big money, with very little tax. Entirely possible she was loaded enough to live as she did. And even if she was the biggest star in the world, even then stars had a life cycle... they might keep working but you've only got awhile on top. Julia Roberts is still a star, but she doesn't stir the excitement she used to.

Of course they were!

That's the whole thing with Joe, he was able to go there to achieve what he wanted.

A 1950s star living in seclusion would be very plausible -- it would be like Carol Baker's character in Paranoia, where she was some pop tart in the 1950s but completely lost by the end of the 1960s. Or like Mick Jagger's character in Performance.

There was an Old Hollywood / Art Deco revival in the 1980s that could really work for a 1950s-1980s version of the story.

The film makes it very clear how Norma became rich. And a number of huge silent stars careers attempted talkies but their careers tanked.

The only one in BS territory is R130.

Who knew a DLer could be such an idiot where a film like Sunset Boulevard was concerned?

Joe Gillis is floating on the top of the pool he is not at the bottom of it. That's why you have the shot where it appears the camera is at the bottom shooting up. I think a mirror was used to get the shot. Something like that.

Clift was not handsome. Pretty even beautiful yes.

That's why handsome Holden gives off a noticeable sexual heat which works for the film. Also his getting older works for the film as well because he's aging out of Hollywood himself and is getting desperate which helps to understand how he is so easily caught up with Norma.

The musical makes him out to be too young.

Maybe just me, not a 'popular' opinion, but I thought that she was one of few truly sympathetic characters...she was an antique before her time, was 'eccentric' to put it mildly, but having had the world snatched from her feet due to technology beyond her comprehension is still a resonant theme. Then this gigolo turns up and he's fine with taking advantage of a woman who is clearly NOT all there. Hard to feel sorry for him, especially given she wasn't disgustingly old...as far as being lovers...NEVER...she was wild with the idea of him, of someone to lavish attention on/vice versa but he was a 'cad with dignity'...or atleast tried to play that but hard to be a kept man with dignity.

Honestly cannot stomach the idea of this being remade using more contemporary themes (Madonna), some things shouldn't be touched...so who's looking forward to 'A Star is Born' with Gagag??

[quote]In the 1950s Danny Thomas and Jackie Gleason were the biggest stars of the era

Excuse us?

Danny Thomas remained a big star into the 60s with Make Room for Daddy.

Jackie Gleason remained a huge star as long as Honeymooners was in syndication which is why he was able to co star in movies with Reynolds and Hanks.

Yes they are forgotten today but except for Monroe everyone fades no matter how big. Except among the gays.

Even Presley and Dean who seemed to be up there with Monroe are fading.

If it were remade and modernized, I don't think they could say that Norma was "the greatest star of all." Maybe she ratted out some big Hollywood producer for sexually harassing her and was blacklisted in the industry. Maybe that could work, because it would be something she really had no control over. Maybe those producers are starting to die off and people have forgotten about the scandal (as we know, Hollywood execs are turned out every week it seems). Some young filmmaker gives her hope that they want her in a new picture and shit gets crazy again.

Sean Young for Norma!

Clift was considered for Joe and he showed some interest, maybe, but he was living with an older woman at the time and the story and his real life were too close. He turned the role down.

R140

[quote] ...reminds me of something I have heard said about Gloria Swanson more than once - that Joe Kennedy helped/advised her how to invest her money which enabled her to live well her whole life.

The story to remember about Swanson and Joe Kennedy is that he once gave her a sumptuous fur coat.

Swanson later discovered that he had bought the coat with Swanson's own money.

There's a famous story about the original cut of the movie being shown to an audience and they loathed it. Wilder had to re-edit the film and one scene in particular that was lost was the one showing Norma sitting on Joe's face.

So they really did have faces, then.

R126, I believe Lillian Gish and her sister Dorothy were offered the first million dollar contract when they were making silent films for D. W. Griffith.

R161, Ironically, there is the lost footage of Norma rimming Joe included on the Criterion Collection DVD.

I can't imagine Griffith was handing million dollar contracts to anyone.

Did you mean perhaps another producer or studio?

R166, It was MGM that offered Gish $1mil for 6 films in 1926, but she turned them down.

And then there's Mary Pickford . . .

No longer content with acting in other people’s movies, Pickford signed with Adolph Zukor of Famous Players Films Company, which would eventually become Paramount. The contract specified that Pickford and her company, Pickford Film Corporation, would produce all of her own films. In addition, Pickford herself would bring home $1,000,000 during her two-year contract. That’s nearly $22,000,000 today, putting “Little Mary” right at the top of today’s A-list earners. Not bad for a kid who started acting to help support her family.

Kind of like Burton using money made off of his relationship with Liz to buy her fabulous jewels. He would have had no where near the salary needed otherwise.

And didn't Blondell see jewels made with her money on Liz?

[quote] And didn't Blondell see jewels made with her money on Liz?

When she was married to Mike Todd, he was in financial difficulty and to help him out, Blondell let him have her jewelry.

Joan's quote afterwards was

[quote] The last time I saw my jewelry, Elizabeth Taylor was wearing it.

Every time I see a picture of ET all decked out in jewels, I wonder how much of that bling belongs to Blondell.

How was Joan Blondell able to attract such dynamic husbands as Dick Powell and Mike Todd?

She was no great beauty, in addition to being chubby.

She was very cute when young with personality for miles. Curvy and with what Cagney said was the best ass he ever saw on a woman.

All you seem unaware that Sunset Boulevard was remade in Paul Morrissey's "Andy Warhol Presents" Heat - 1972. It has plenty of it's own charms. (Check out a couple minutes starting at 40:00)

Coming this Christmas: SHUNSHET TOWERSH!!

A down on his luck songwriter (Justin Timberlake) broke and hungry, is wandering along Sunset Boulevard when he suddenly spots a pair of cops eyeing him suspiciously. Not wanting to be arrested for vagrancy, he ducks into the lobby of the closest building and punches the elevator, which miraculously opens just as the cops are gaining on him. Catching his breath, he punches a random floor number as the elevator ascends. To his amazement, the elevator opens directly onto a living room with a decor straight out of the 1980s: white carpeting, lucite furniture, and a large Warhol print of a face he vaguely recognizes...a woman with a pixie haircut and big eyes framed by thick pointy eyelashes. Before the name can come to him, he suddenly sees a wizened old woman, dressed entirely in black, seated on the sofa. "Darling!" she chirps. "Thank HEAVENS you've come! " Batting her ancient eyes, she points a wizened finger across the room. "Would you be a SHWEETHEART and bring me my cane? I can't reach it, and I'm such a SCHATTERBRAIN for leaving it so far away!" The young man retrieves the cane and hands it to the woman. He apologizes for disturbing her and turns to leave, at which point the old woman says, "No, please! SCHTAY for lunch! I INSCHIST!" SCHTAY, please!"

Over lunch she asks him what he does, and he reveals that he is a songwriter who is just waiting for his lucky break. She becomes extremely excited: "A SHONGWRITER!!" and reveals that she herself was once a great Broadway star, and she is looking for just the right SCHORE that will put her back on top, and he could write it for her, and........well, you know the rest.

[quote]so who's looking forward to 'A Star is Born' with Gagag??

Apparently, EVERYONE.

It's going to be a smash according to the uniformly rapturous reviews so far.

Interesting the one that started what is now practically a franchise What Price Hollywood was a flop remembered because of all the remakes.

R174 is why we need the opposite of Ignore, but an ADORE button, so we can read everything they type!

Goddamn, Joe Dallesandro was hotter than hell when Heat was made. Now, THAT is a man a woman would go murderous for.

r177 is PEAK DL

Despite, I'm sure, limited commercial prospects, I can't imagine why this hasn't been used as the basis of a gay porn themed remake/retelling. I mean, think about it - the porn of the 70's and 80's was on film and they sometimes even bothered with a plot. Even the porn of the 90's did that as they switched to video to save costs. Maybe there's a 50/60-something gay porn star who's sick of all the newfangled amateur shit which has killed the legit porn industry. They want to make the greatest fuck fest of all and prove to the world that they're still vibrant and sexy. I'm not saying it would be an actual porn flick, but just set it in that world.

Wilder has told how he and the other writer went to Pickfair to ask Mary to star in SB and half way through it they saw Mary’s face and said Norma is all wrong for her said goodbye and left.

No, they couldn't have cast better than Gloria Swanson, not just because she'd been a huge star and was a good actress, but because she was still a good-looking woman.

Yes, Norma was a monster, but the monstrousness was on the inside! The outside still looked good enough that a relationship with a younger man was quite believable.

Actually, for a 50-year old woman, Swanson looked incredible.

You know that scene when she goes, "Look at my face! Look at my hands!" I did; and they were surprisingly youthful.

Interestingly, she looked just about the same in this interview from 1970.

Swanson was still a very attractive woman at 50. I think a mistake is turning Norma into a kind of gorgon. I think the Glenn Close musical did this. For starters, even in her youth, Close was no great beauty, but I remember them making her look like Baby Jane Hudson with all that white pancake makeup. I think most men would have a hard time getting it up for that.

I remember at least Betty Buckley seemed to tone down the makeup a bit and was an attractive woman. I think it kinda helps when she's still attractive so it's not quite as pathetic.

Someone like Michelle Pfeiffer could pull it off perhaps these days.

I still can’t imagine Bill Holden’s character going after her dusty cootch.

r185 = M

"You know that scene when she goes, "Look at my face! Look at my hands!" I did; and they were surprisingly youthful. "

Totally believable that she's whine like that in a weak moment, even if it's true that Norma/Gloria looked absolutely fabulous for a fifty-year-old woman in 1950. Norma is the kind of woman who'd have hysterics over every wrinkle and droop, and console herself with champagne and facials until she could convince herself that she was still beautiful, and get back to fantasizing about her comeback.

R186 there are men with mommy issues ( and joe looked 45 lets be honest)

[quote] Norma is the kind of woman who'd have hysterics over every wrinkle and droop, and console herself with champagne and facials until she could convince herself that she was still beautiful,

I remember reading a story about Lana Turner going to see a plastic surgeon and showing him a picture of herself from, I think it was "The Prodigal", telling him, "I want to look like this." The surgeon told her that that was impossible.

"I can't imagine why this hasn't been used as the basis of a gay porn themed remake/retelling"

R180, this:

...and a sequel!

Sunsex Boulevard was surprisingly good. I don't like Zak Spears as a rule, but in this one he was lean and hairy. And at the very end, he tries to act.

[quote]Clift was considered for Joe and he showed some interest, maybe, but he was living with an older woman at the time and the story and his real life were too close. He turned the role down.

Close but he actually signed for the role and broke his contract by refusing to continue just a very short time before filming was to start, causing some turmoil. You're right about his relationship with Libby Holman probably making the story too close for comfort for him.

Did you all know Libby Holman was at least half-lesbian?

I did not.

[quote] Did you all know Libby Holman was at least half-lesbian?

Which half?

Part of the pathos of Sunset Boulevard is the fact that Norma has become obsolete so quickly. Her professional heyday was magical, intense, and short. We treat her as a relic, though we can see she isn't one.

Swanson's essential performance just gets better and better with repeated viewings.

[quote]Were Joe and Norma lovers?

No-- that was us.

R197, good point.

If Norma Desmond had wanted to learn new techniques, and was willing to work as in supporting roles, she could have been working as an actress in 1950. She was still good-looking, she had charisma, she was pals with DeMille, she could have been playing Society ladies or high priestesses in Biblical epics, if she's wanted to. But Norma Desmond didn't want to keep working as long as Lillian Gish, she didn't want to make anything but silent films.

The thing about silent screen actors is that their skills were only marketable for a few years, and didn't transfer to any other field. Most silent screen actors weren't trained, they invented the technique of silent acting as they went along, and theater training only got in the way of learning to emote through mine. And as soon as sound came in, a skill set that hadn't existed in 1900 was obsolete by 1930.

That happens every now in the entertainment world. Imagine you're Glenn Miller or Artie Shaw, and in 1940 you're a huge star and suddenly it's 1970 and rock has totally taken over popular music, and Big Bands are totally gone and even jazz is only followed by a few aficionados.

This thread is absolutely stupid. The answer is YES. The rest of the posts are beyond pedantic and dull conjecture. DL at its worst. Masturbating to the point that you ruined the damn movie. Goodnite.

R180, I'm blanking on the name but I think there is a porn from the 1970s using this basic plot. I want to say it was released by Vinegar Syndrome a couple years ago.

Now that r201 has stamped his foot and gone to bed, would any adults like to continue the conversation on this great film.?

BTW, did anybody bother to check out the 1894 Dickson sound film linked above at r136? It's only 17 seconds and totally adorable for a gay audience.

So the first known sound film is a gay indie? Typically as bad as all the rest.

Of course, R200. But in the film, there are references to the fact that Norma became difficult to work with at her peak stardom. When she’s speaking with Mr. Demille about her screenplay, she reminds him she doesn’t work before 10am or past 4pm.

The talkies gave the studios an excuse to ditch her. They would have little motivation to try to reinvent her. And frankly, Norma’s ego was such that it would probably be impossible to convince her to adopt character roles after being the star.

By the way, R200, I was agreeing with you in R205. Delete the word “but” that starts the 2nd sentence!

He's a whore, darlin'