Was Lou Reed a male borderline?

Possibly. His parents had him licked up and given electroshock as a teen when they discovered he was Bi. Some people think that damaged his brain.

Also, stormy interpersonal relationships.

Totally possible. I read the recent bio on him and he was just so unremittingly awful, there had so be something organic going on.

* Locked up.

There is a kind of violent psychosis that cones from long term heroin abuse too.

He does seem to tick a lot of the diagnostic indicators.

Serious question, OP: What do you mean by a "male borderline"? What role does gender play in a diagnosis?

Its supposedly a little higher in the female population but there is huge sampling bias in psychological studies when it cones to gender.

Women are much more likely to seek help and get diagnosed in the first place. Its highly likely that BPD affects as many ( or more) men. They just aren't available for sample groups.

It does present differently according to social norms though. Eg: Female BPD sufferers tend to harm themselves more and males tend to harm others more.

Well, thanks for the explanation. But it still seems unnecessary to characterize him, or anyone, according to gender. Could he really be a female borderline?

R9 Well he did walk on the wild side...

Well according to the BPD thread DLers seem to think its an exclusively Frau disease.

But DLers tend in the ignorant, misogynist douchebag direction so...

Reportedly, lifelong denial of his sexuality also did a number on him.

He was a nasty drunk, thats for sure. I'd just call him a miserable git, but you could be right OP.

I read in ROLLING STONE that he was also a bit racist...he hated seeing white women go after black men.

He seemed ok with white men and black women though, seeing as he and Laurie hung out with David Bowie and Iman. So a hypocrite as well.

He was an asshole. He looked vaguely like an old boyfriend of mine who was also an asshole. My asshole boyfriend could always tell I was pissed at him when I would start humming Take a Walk on the Wild Side.

Why the need to play armchair psychiatrist on DL? Asshole and junkie seem like labels that fit just fine.

Long ago, Reed said his parents asked him, as a young teen, to go into therapy for his homosexuality. They didn't tell him it involved twelve weeks of electro-shock treatments. He said by the time he was returned home, he had to re-learn how to read and write, plus his sense of direction.

Besides the physical brain damage, I'd say that kind of parental betrayal would contribute to some serious mental issues.

See link for "Lady Godiva's Operation" Reed based this on his experience with the shock treatment. The lyrics indicate Reed may have actually been transgendered. Lady Godiva is expecting a sex change and gets a lobotomy instead.

And yes, Reed was an absolute ass to people he should've treated better - John Cale and VU bandmates, Lou Reed, Nico, David Bowie, etc.

Last sentence - Lou Reed should be Andy Warhol. Sorry about that.

I meet many celebrities in my line of work. Reed was without a doubt the nastiest SOB I ever dealt with. Wait, Linda Lavin was even worse.

Still trying to figure out why R16 felt the need to make the thread about him and his ex-boyfriend.

[quote]Women are much more likely to seek help and get diagnosed in the first place.

Yeah, because they're told form birth that they're worth it, men are told from birth that only pussies get help and to walk it off. It's a curture thing. If we didn't treat men like animals then we wouldn't have so many men without help.

I just watched Prozac Nation which is blatantly less a film about depression than about BPD and in that movie Lou Reed's life happens to resonate with Lizzie's, the main character.

Maybe she can understand him and his music so well because they both have something in common: BPD.

[quote]Lou Reed should be Andy Warhol.

Did he speak of this often?

r21 I'll bet it's because that is all he knows about Lou Reed (a not terribly interesting person).

According to his sister, the electroshock was adminstered not because he was bi, but because he was mentally ill.

But his parents were just following a psychiatrist’s advice when they allowed it to happen, and who knows what the psychiatrist’s actual reasoning was, given that they were dealing with the kind of doctor who told them that his mom made him schizophrenic by not hugging him enough when he was a baby (I get the impression that this was a popular theory and a catch-all diagnosis at the time?).

[R24]

Lou Reed said he and Warhol were discussing the band's future. When Warhol asked Reed if he was satisfied with the venues the band was playing, Reed responded by firing him on the spot. He had also fired Nico a little earlier.

What Warhol and the band didn't know was that Reed had met Steve Resnick, and had decided to replace Warhol with him as the band's manager. The band didn't like this, which probably played a big part in Cale's firing, not just artistic differences between them

Warhol pretty much confirmed that's how it happened. In his diary, Warhol referred to Reed as a 'Rat".

For me, Reed falls into that category of person who could be absolutely brilliant on one hand, and rotten to the core on the other. John Lennon was like that. Asia Argento is a another ---- nah, just kidding about her.

Vivien Leigh spoke highly of the electroshock therapy - and I think they're researching bringing it back for... well, bipolar manic episodes I guess. That's when she got it. Calmed her wild ass down.

I think it's good that they're identifying borderline and narcissistic personality disorders because the more information you have on dealing with assholes in your life, the better off you are. I put up with my wretched mother for decades until I figured out it was NPD and it wasn't my fault so I could high tail it out of there. Nothing else you can do. But if people hadn't researched this shit and written about it, I would have lived my life never knowing what was really going on, and either blaming myself or just excusing her because she was a bit "crazy".

Crazy is ok. Abusive is NOT.

Lou Reed was a nasty bridge-burner who died better off than he deserved to -- wealthy and with a patient, loving partner who put up with a ton of shit. Definitely mentally ill.

[R28]

I'm with you on that. I grew up as you did. I've figure it out also about mental illness should not be an excuse for being abusive. One thing I learned from my personal experiences is that mentally ill people are not above using their illness as a 'cover' for abusing people. They know all about that "not responsible for one's actions' loophole, and how to manipulate it.

That piece of knowledge is the only thing I can thank my family for after I escaped.

Now, back to Lou Reed!

R28 and R29 - Thank you for pointing that out. You nailed it on the head.

IF Reed had a psychiatric disorder, he may not have; people who suffer from mental illness and the professionals who work with them are all unanimous on this, a mental health disorder is not an excuse to abuse others. There may be certain negative aspects of mental illness that the person cannot help, but it does not excuse being abusive.

I guess people who have bipolar are getting a little tired of people jumping to the conclusion that someone "must be bipolar" every time someone acts like an idiot.

That being said; it is my understanding that Lou Reed, Andy Warhol's creation, was widely, widely disliked and was considered to be a truly nasty individual. Reed must've gotten some satisfaction out of this behavior because he continued to act this way until his last days. As someone said, "Lou Reed hated anyone in the music industry who was more successful than him. That pretty much means everyone."

Anyone notice that there was not exactly a huge outpouring of grief when Reed's passing was announced?

I think it is hilarious that Reed could not wait to cash in on his one hit song, "Walk on The Wild Side" and look back in great amusement at the terrible commercial he starred in with that song playing.

R29: He mistreated Laurie Anderson?

Take your MRA agenda and shove it up your ass R22. You sound borderline yourself.

r32 when he first got with Laurie, I remember reading he was cutting her off from her old friends and old life. It's a red flag of an abusive relationship.

I have no doubt he was, at the least, emotionally/verbally abusive towards her. Do you think he could mistreat waitstaff in such a vile manner and then NOT eventually turn that rage toward his partner?

Someone was talking about a party that Anderson and Reed attended. They said that Reed was just horrible to everyone and that Anderson had this smile stuck on her face trying desperately to gloss over Reed's behavior.

What in the world did she see in him? Yes, he used to date Nico, but Nico was pretty much a mess so him dating Nico is not exactly an endorsement.

Everyone makes fun of The Monkees for being a "made for t.v. band". What was The Velvet Underground other than an obscure Andy Warhol creation (Warhol had about as much class as Reed)? I'd much rather watch The Monkees and listen to their music rather than so much look at a picture of Reed.

(By the way, Datalounge could really use a thread about The Monkees.)

They were cute here.

The Velvet Underground was not an Andy Warhol creation.

He was their first manager. It was his name value that got them a record contract. His one condition for managing them was that they take on Nico as female lead vocal.

Andy Warhol, and Nico, were important to the band in that the first album would never have been made without them. Warhol exposed Reed to The Factory and all of his crowd. Reed observed everything around him and wrote a number of classic songs form it. Nico had a thick, deep Germanic voice and the VU had to adapt their music to that voice. It made "All Tomorrow's Parties" the forerunner to the Goth sound that became popular decades later. John Cale also deserves as much credit for the music as Reed deserves for the lyrics.

The Velvet Underground deserve their place in history. Andy Warhol didn't create them, but he created their image, he influenced their sound for their most important album, and in return Reed pretty much dumped him, Nico, and later John Cale when he had no more use for him.

R37 I still prefer The Monkees and Reed was still an a double snake hole.

i absolutely never ever "got" this person. i never liked him, never 'followed' him and only know one song of his....guess which one?

fried brain or not: NAE.

No one ever "got" him because he no appeal. He must've went to David Crosby for charisma lessons.

He actually had a number of good songs, r39. For example:

And:

This presupposes he had a personality other than asshole.

I should note at R43, that I am currently listening to The Velvet Underground and Nico.

I'm listening to the song [R41] posted. It's nice to see Moe Tucker got a drumming credit there.

My (straight) husband worked in a high end stereo store on the upper east side of Manhatten when he was around 17-18 and installed LR's stereo system at his house. He said he couldn't have been nicer, lol.

No you pervs, he didn't pull anything (literally or figuratively) so I didn't say anything.

I'm sure his being a hotty totty Mediterranean six foot something built young guy had zero to do with it.

r45 I think Moe Tucker became a Tea Partier. I wonder if she voted for Trump.

As much as I enjoy the Monkees, I prefer Lou Reed and the Velvet Underground.

John Cale came around to appreciating Nico after Andy Warhol insisted she be the lead vocalist on this song. Cale said Nico took their nice, gentle folk song and turned it into something medieval. They had no choice but to rescore it to fit her vocal style.

Reed's doing lead guitar here and had every string tuned to "D'.

Cale's playing piano and hung a string of paperclips on each piano string to create the sound effect.

The Monkees rule, Lou Reed drools!!!

R39 R40 you didn't have to 'get him' , plenty of others did. Music just connects with people in different ways. There's just something about Lou Reeds voice and music that moves me, this is one example.

That doesn't mean I don't accept he was an asshole though. He battered Betty (his first wife) and David Bowie in front of witnesses, so I would guess there were other incidents as well.

r50 that song is really meaningful to me. I played it all the time when I came out/had my first boyfriend.

Lou Reed is a polarizing artist because the personality is so at odds with his accomplishments.

If the club existed, he would've been a member along with John Lennon, Marlon Brando, Harlan Ellison. I appreciate their talent, but it's hard to respect Lennon for his treatment of Cynthia and Julian, and Brando for whatever hell he subjected his daughter to. Ellison and Reed were major league asses, but their transgressions seem minor league to Lennon's and Brando's.

Sticking with the topic, do the four of them share the same traits found in Borderline.

Personally, I stopped excusing abusive behavior on mental neurosis. I have no interest in studying every new Disorder the "experts' come up with excuse bad behavior.

Lou Reed cold be an ass mental illness or now. I sympathize with him for the shock treatments. I still love his music.

Correction - Lou Reed could be an ass mental illness or not.

I love it when Jones does "the Davy". Can't help but notice there is no beloved little dance move called "the Lou". Just sayin'.

He was a Mainliner.

Lou was a nasty sarcastic asshole who felt his musical talents outshined everyone. He was of course totally wrong. I ran into him often in NYC in the late 70s and early 80s. I’ll vote for bipolar but I’d also leave open a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenic. I could never wrap my head around his relationship with Laurie Anderson.

His heavy, late-in-life drinking explains this travesty:

[quote]Everyone makes fun of The Monkees for being a "made for t.v. band". What was The Velvet Underground other than an obscure Andy Warhol creation (Warhol had about as much class as Reed)?

This would work if the Monkees wrote and performed all of their own songs and already existed as a band, but in order to get a TV show they had to let Davy join and sing three songs on their first album. And then after that they fired Davy.

From a review of the recent-ish bio:

[quote]The guitarist Chuck Hammer recalled a 1979 concert in Germany, in which a woman climbed onstage during a tense standoff between Reed and a heckler. “Lou proceeds to drag her off the stage by her hair, and pushes her off the stage,” Mr. Hammer is quoted as saying. “She fell 15 feet — at least, at which stage a full-blown riot breaks out.”

R58? Davy Jones was a good singer and sang on a lot of The Monkees biggest hits, he was also the heartthrob of the group. Jones was with the show for two whole seasons that it ran and he and Micky Dolenz continued to be Monkees for decades afterward.

Jones was never fired and he did not stop being a Monkee until he dropped dead.

Are you thinking of Tork? The first one to leave the show, on his own free will, and the band, also on his own free will?

R60, I was describing the problems with drawing a parallel between the Monkees and the Velvet Underground. The Monkees were assembled by producers and didn’t write or play their own music until the end. The Velvet Underground were a regular band, and the only way in which they were altered by Warhol was in that at his urging, they allowed Nico to join for the first album and sing a few songs.

I always assumed this song was directed at Laurie. I wonder if the "someone else in our bed" was a man?

[quote]I know I shouldn't had someone else in our bed / But I was so tired, I was so tired

[quote]Bark, why don't you just bark?

[quote]Sit, come, stay are the perfect words meant for you

[quote]Ah, ass, you says I'm an ass

[quote]You better call 911 'cause I'm gonna hold you tight

[quote]The lyrics indicate Reed may have actually been transgendered

Can we please stop retroactively diagnosing everyone as trans?

Lol @ r63

The lyrics indicate Reed may have actually been transgendered

Can we please stop retroactively diagnosing everyone as trans?

—Basta! reply 63

Well, the term back then was transsexual, but transgendered seemed appropriate so as not to trigger the Trigglypuff Bastas lurking on here.

Is this a serious suggestion about Lou Reed being transgendered? I can't tell. I do know a fair amount about Reed and have never heard this before. His interest in transsexuals lay in fucking them, not being one himself (same as Bowie and probably Iggy pop too).

It’s funny that it’s being suggested that he was transgender, because he has at least two songs (“My Red Joystick” and “The Blue Mask,” and I don’t even know half his work) where he seems to be specifically saying that having his penis removed would be the worst thing that could happen to him. Did he want to be punished? I’m not sure he wasn’t just scarred by overexposure to early 1960s psychiatry.

[[R66]]

Refer back to the earlier posts discussing Reed's electro-shock therapy. There's a link at [R27] to an autobiographical song of Reed's - "Lady Godiva's Operation." The character was a gay man being betrayed as his sex change surgery is turned into a lobotomy.

Given Reed was writing about feeling betrayed by his parents concerning the electro-shock to cure him of homosexuality, the lyrics indicate Reed may have had some mental confusion concerning his gender when he was a teen.

Later, he wrote "Kill Your Sons" where he dropped the sexual ambiguity. He may have figured out he was simply a gay/bi man by that time.

No one said earlier he WAS a tranny.

This thread is the first time I've ever heard it claimed Lou Reed was trans.

R68, he knew about a million trans women at the Factory.

No

His brain died ten years before his body did.

He had a double. He left the Underground years before people realized.