Ted Bundy: Renewed interest in 2018– 3 hours of new Bundy specials on Oxygen and Zac Efron Movie

Waiting for your links, OP.

Ted Bundy could get it anytime

Link to clips and full episode of “In Defense of: Ted Bundy” on Oxygen below:

The freakiest and most shocking thing his lawyer said in it was that Bundy had a crying breakdown on the floor of his cell one time only and admitted to the lawyer that he had killed “over 100 people” and that his “first victim” was “a young boy” Bundy killed in the woods when Bundy was only between 12 and 14 years old, during some kind of “sex game”.

Lawyer said that he was the only person Bundy admitted this to and that he was shocked. There didn’t seem to be more details.

WTF? Wish we knew more about this. Bundy was notoriously secretive about his crimes and their history or details (only telling what he wanted to and when). He confessed this during the only breakdown the lawyer saw him have.

If Bundy started killing at *12 years old* and killed at least one little boy (during a “sex game”), what does that mean (besides that he was evil)? Was he molested as a child or something?

Very disturbing...

The defense attorney’s name is John Henry Browne by the way.

Here is the clip about the killing as a boy.

Bundy's grandfather was a psychopath and was also his father.

Years ago someone here worked with one of the women who survived bundys 1978 attack at Florida state university. If I recall, they said the woman had a permanent limp but didn’t remember a thing about the attack. Another woman he attacked had a full dance scholarship at FSU and because of her head injury (her equilibrium and balance was damaged ) she could no longer dance.

One of the chi omega sorority members that was murdered didn’t die right away. Bundy bit her nipple off and had shoved a clairol hairspray bottle into her vagina. She died in another girls arms.

Link to “Snapped: Notorious Ted Bundy”

(Okay overview of crimes, but too many annoying and unnecessary talking heads. Would rather have heard more from the FBI profilers and psychologists than the unrelated “empowering” young lady cop who keeps screeching, “He was a con man *not* a genius! He was a psychopath and *not* hot! Does murder sound “hot” to you?!?” every 10 seconds....)

Zac Efron (left) as Ted Bundy—first image released.

Oh God, this already looks so bad....

Bundy was incredibly clever and manipulative. I can't imagine him genuinely crying over anything.

The first time I ever heard of him was in 1978, when I read a rather infamous article in Rolling Stone called "The Trials of Ted Bundy." It was written before Bundy was convicted for the Florida killings and argued, seriously, that Bundy might be innocent, even though corpses turned up everywhere he went. I often wondered what the author (whose name I can't recall) thought when Bundy finally confessed.

sometimes it is better to let sleeping dogs lay.

They said in the various specials, [R9], that multiple people in the public and who met Ted in person actually believed that he was innocent—shocking as that is (before all his confessions obviously).

One of his psychiatrists in prison was quoted as saying: “Sometimes he manipulates even me”.

A scary quote. You don’t hear that about most serial killers.

Bundy studied psychology in college. I wonder if that was one of the reasons why he was so good at “appearing normal” and convincing people of his innocence?

I’ve never heard another serial killer described quite like Bundy...

He was also known to change his appearance “at will” and be a chameleon—a significant reason he could evade capture and witness recognition for so long. Mugshots and various pictures seem to bare this out...

And here

And here

And here

And especially *here*

Close up of the Efron pic. I seriously doubt he can even handle a role this “serious”.

OMG! Mary! I had just come across an article about him and read the Wiki page because I wanted to read about the FSU stuff. So timely you made this thread!

My jaw dropped. I was not alive during the TB killing spree. I had only heard bits and pieces. Holy Shit was he a killing machine.

I do wonder if any boy went missing around the time he claims he killed him. There was an 8 year old girl who went missing when he was 14 and they think he killed her. Any evidence a boy went missing around the time he was that age?

I do believe he killed over 100. Reading about him, it is chilling. He was so prolific. The FSU killings was just a rampage. He would often lie about killings or flat out not give details because he wanted those to remain his forever.

If you want to read about another truly sadistic (stomach churningly so) serial killer, read up on Dean Coryll.

In court—he seemed to laugh a lot in front of the cameras.

I lived in Utah when Ted was kidnapping and killing there. When he was caught I remember it was very difficult to believe he was guilty. Smart, good looking law student. Did not look like the monster he turned out to be. Some of his victims have never been found.

They'll never know how many he killed. If he started at 12-14, he killed so many more. Most agree it is likely 100+ which is nuts. He would even say he didn't understand emotion at all, how people even recognized each other. That is how dark he was. Which makes it crazy he had relationships and jobs and such. Seemed very normal.

Reminds me of the John Lithgow serial killer on Dexter.

Thanks for the links. I’ve been OD’ing on true crime lately but I’ll probably watch.

In court below.

(The court trial is a whole other story. He worked as his own attorney, interviewed witnesses in some cases, married a witness during a court session(!): it was nuts, nuts, nuts! Must have been the “trial of the century” pre-O.J.)

In court again. Even *after* women realized he was guilty, *many* apparently still pursued him via letters in prison. He even had a romantic thing with a young lady lawyer shortly before he was fried.

I guess they didn’t care that he had sex with dead bodies and cut their heads off sometimes.

I suppose it’s a kind of testament to the scary and irrational power of something (really) silly like charisma.

For me he's an interesting contrast with Jeffrey Dahmer, arguably as famous/hated a serial rapist/killer as Bundy. While Bundy lied and tried to manipulate the police, and fought his convictions at every turn, Dahmer was open, compliant and readily admitted his guilt and accepted punishment. It's so odd both these men could have these violent and murderous impulses but have such different attitudes about their behavior after the fact.

he was a master manipulator. They were worried all the way up until they actually executed him that he would somehow be able to get out of the death penalty. they kept a lot of people away from him because of they way he manipulated them.

While attending the University of Washington as a Law student, Bundy volunteered at a Rape Crisis center. One of his coworkers as the author Ann Rule.

In her book, "The Stranger Beside Me," she writes of an interview that had taken place with his aunt: she was babysitting him one evening. In the middle of the night she was awaken by somebody disturbing her sleep. She awoke to find Bundy placing kitchen knives in the bed with her. Bundy was 8-9 years old at the time.

Psychopaths =absentee dad + domineering mother.

In case, like Nicholson? & Clapton? Bobby Darin..he was raised by grandmother, mother stunting as sister.

Ted freaked out when truth revealed.

Interesting story, [R27]. And an important hint to what his psych issues were and when theystarted. Thanks!

Wikipedia and one of the specials on Oxygen said that the young Ted lining up the kitchen knives on his aunt’s bed while she was sleeping happened when Bundy was *3* years old. And it says that he smiled at her when she woke up. Very disturbing.

Here’s the quote on the story from Wikipedia:

“Ted occasionally exhibited disturbing behavior, even at that early age.

Julia recalled awakening one day from a nap to find herself surrounded by knives from the Cowell kitchen; her three-year-old nephew was standing by the bed, smiling.[24]”

What the fuck was going on in his childhood home?

(I’m linking the entire Wikipedia article below. Wikipedia is great in general, but the Ted Bundy article is one of their more comprehensive and thorough articles. Well worth reading on this case..)

Ted Bundy was born out of wedlock. His grandmother pretended she was his mother while his real mother was passed off as his sister. One day while his real mother/sister was lying in bed, 4 year Ted Bundy went up to her and stabbed her with a pair of scissors. The shape of things to come?

Ted Bundy as a little kid (around the time of the aunt/knife incident perhaps?)

He looks like a normal little kid. It’s sad.

I think what shocked me most when reading about his crimes was the *extreme* level of violence.

He is probably the most violent killer I’ve ever read about: necrophilia, heads taken off and sometimes kept, beyond overkill bludgeoning, blood everywhere, rape with metal instruments, etc. etc.

I knew he was a murderer of a lot of women (horrible), but I wasn’t aware of the level of sadism involved.

He was truly awful at his core. And he clearly HATED women for some reason.

Even one of his prison psychologists said that she was stunned by his complete lack of *any* compassion for any of his victims and how “misogynistic” his crimes were.

I genuinely wonder what creates a Ted Bundy.

How does he go from a smiling little kid to a killing monster? Is it nature or nurture? Both?

That question is haunting to me....

One more Ted Bundy looking like a “normal kid”

R31, psychopathy is inherited but if you examine childhoods of psychopathic serial killers, a common denominator is absentee bio dad and domineering, controlling mother. Go see for yourself.

Was his father really his grandfather biologically? Never heard that one.

Bundy with a girlfriend (who he didn’t kill) below. He seemed to never kill anyone he knew.

It’s strange to me that he could be a “steady boyfriend” with a woman and hang with her friends, etc. and “resist the urge to kill” them, especially when he was such a violent person who hated women in particular.

How did he maintain relationships with women basically his entire adult life when he clearly hated them so much (and was secretly a killer)?

Obviously he had self-control when it came to the killings. He didn’t “have” to kill every pretty woman he saw. I guess he just decided when to use that self control...

It’s so odd to me that he could maintain this illusion of a normal life. When you read about killers like Dahmer, they were basically living on the fringes of society and could even appear a bit “odd” from the outside—even if no one thought they were killers. People like Manson just freaked most normal people out and seemed like a “weirdo” in society.

Bundy seemed to have mastered the art (if that’s what you call it) of blending into society and acting normal when he wanted to. He seemed to know how to mimic normal humans better than othes killers you read about...

Yes, [R33]. Apparently most family members believed that Ted’s abusive, violent grandfather was the father or his teenage daughter’s baby (Ted).

It’s in the Wikipedia. Here is the quote about it:

“His father's identity was never determined with any degree of certainty. His birth certificate assigned paternity to a salesman and Air Force veteran named Lloyd Marshall,[9] but Louise later claimed that she had been seduced by "a sailor"[10] whose name may have been Jack Worthington.[11] Years later, investigators would find no record of anyone by that name in Navy or Merchant Marine archives.[12] Some family members expressed suspicions that Bundy might have been fathered by Louise's own violent, abusive father, Samuel Cowell,[13] but no material evidence has ever been cited to support or refute this.[14]”

(Another article I read basically said that the whole family and extended family was pretty sure from the very start (when Bundy was first born) that the grandpa raped the mom, creating Ted).

R31 Serial killers are born with a serious flaw in their system in which their is always a sexual element to their crime. It's how they 'get off'. When he was apprehended Ted Bundy stated that he crept into a university girl's bedroom in the night while she slept - he proceeded to hit her over the head with an iron rod wile masturbating with his other hand. Very twisted, deadly sex.

Ewww, [R36]. Very disturbing and so gross. Thanks for the insight.

More about the little that is known about Bundy’s childhood from Wikipedia below.

The family was pretty secretive about his early life and childhood and about the family in general, and, interestingly, so was Ted.

He would talk about a lot in interviews (especially toward the end)—including the disgusting details of his crimes—but the *one* thing he seemed super protective about was his family; it seemed to be his *one* sensitive spot in life. Not sure what that means.

Anyway, according to this his grandpa/father was an abusive psycho who abused at least 3 women (Ted’s teen mom, his aunt, and Ted’s “submissive” grandmother—a grandmother who sometimes went in the hospital for electroshock treatments for “depression”). He also abused animals and sometimes talked to “unseen entities”.

Ted was raised almost 100% by his grandfather and grandmother his first 3 years. Any psychiatrists here know what effect that could have had on Bundy long term?

(Also: given that the defense lawyer said Ted’s first victim was a boy when Ted was (possibly as young as) 12 years old, does this indicate the grandfather may have molested/sexually abused Ted? Grandpa already raped his teen daughter, so it makes you wonder what he may have done with young Ted...)

Here are the Wikipedia childhood quotes:

“In some interviews, Bundy spoke warmly of his grandparents [19] and told Rule that he "identified with", "respected", and "clung to" his grandfather.[20]

In 1987, he and other family members told attorneys that Samuel Cowell was a tyrannical bully and a bigot who hated blacks, Italians, Catholics, and Jews. Bundy's grandfather beat his wife and the family dog and swung neighborhood cats by their tails.

He once threw Louise's younger sister Julia down a flight of stairs for oversleeping.[21] He sometimes spoke aloud to unseen presences,[22] and at least once he flew into a violent rage when the question of Ted's paternity was raised.[21]

Bundy described his grandmother as a timid and obedient woman who periodically underwent electroconvulsive therapy for depression[22] and feared to leave their house toward the end of her life.[23]”

Family members repeated details about the grandfather being a terrifying abuser in many other articles.

I’m a forensic psychiatrist and was around when he was killing girls. I thought he was quite attractive. Just shows you that sadistic psychopaths exist and can be ugly(Gacy) or good looking (Dahmer) or like nothing at all (Bonin). Dahmer was liked by the psychiatrists around him for some reason. Heard he was very cooperative with interviews and was honest. He was allowing them access to his deepest self and every bit of his thoughts and actions since his childhood.

All we got from the others including Bundy, was boasting about their crimes. This is why shrinks were disappointed when Dahmer was killed. I think Bundy was universally hated. He loved committing his crimes. I like reading about these guys but the chances that we will be able to understand them are nil. I wish we could really study their brains. Maybe something anatomical is really out of order. Otherwise, reading about them is just disturbing. Dahmer allowed people to feel empathy for him, so maybe he had some himself.

This Bundy monster nobody empathized with. Reading about these guys does a number on your head, because you want to empathize, just feel any little thing, but you just absorb their emptiness. Sorry if I rambled.

This may also have been a problem with Bundy: no early human bonding.

Bundy’s mother gave birth to him at the Elizabeth Lund Home for Unwed Mothers and he was apparently left there without his mother or any family members for his first 3 months of his life.

That means no breastfeeding or anything.

I wonder if it’s similar to those Romanian and Eastern European babies they studied that are raised in the orphanages there and then end up having no emotions and/or behavioral problems later on (even as small children) because of the lack of early human interaction or bonding?

Quote with source linked below:

“Ted spent the first three months of his life alone in the maternity home, over four-hundred miles from his mother.”

R34, they use us as covers. Deep inside we know something is off. They beat our trickery, always have an excuse. Weird things like a lazy guy inexplicitly into mountain biking. Biking adventures near out of the way trails. He pretending to be interested in old rail lines. Him taking photographs every 10 seconds on an outside country road near a wooded area. Him seemingly enjoying taking back routes so out of the way to a destination. His absolute, hidden disgust for his mother yet fearing her and her judgements as an adult. His mother starting a new life with abusive stepfather and new children leaving him to fend for himself. Him being able to fool cops, therapists and judges. Him collecting Time Life books on serial killer's claiming to belong to ex live in girlfriend. One of those book covers being the image at R3. Realising you're finally safe years later but still losing control of your arms like in a seizure. How do you recover from that brain rewiring I'd like to know.

Apparently Ted fathered a girl with the woman he married in court. Her name was changed after Ted was executed .

A good book on Bundy is The Only Living Witness. The authors got Ted to "speculate" on the murders and how serial killers operate.

I grew up in North Seattle about 2 miles from the U of w and was a teen (born 1962) when Bundy was active. My parents got both the Seattle times and the post intelligencer (morning and evening papers).

The papers would have pages of pictures with the missing girls and reports of a man with a Volkswagen Bug. We couldn't go to lake sammamish and my sisters couldn't go to things like the UW street fair on their own,

Apparently, Bunny was gang raped by his fellow death row inmates.

Good.

Bunny=Bundy

Another thing besides absentee bio dad + domineering mom, start out as young voyeurs/peeping Toms then graduate onwards.

-Safe @ Last but forever scarred

[R39], thank you for your reply and insight! It wasn’t rambling at all; I rather enjoyed it and appreciated it.

I think it’s true that we (as humans) look for *any* type of little thing we can find to humanize or understand or try to find some kind of empathetic or redeeming value in a person—even the worst of the worst (even a serial killer).

It kind of messes with your mind to realize that the minds of people like Bundy and those of his ilk work SO differently and that they really lack *all* compassion and truly human characteristics—but yet they can sometimes fake it or “play human” like an actor.

It’s a real mindfuck—especially when they are charismatic and decent looking (and “nice sounding”—I’ve listened to interviews with him and he had a pleasant voice) like Bundy and you kind of want to try to find something redeeming in him by nature....

I guess you have to sort of just tell yourself that these people are essentially not human and don’t have a conscience or guilt or think in any normal way, even if there *is* a huge cognitive dissonance there between how you know they behave in private and how they appear in public.

Completely agree with you about Dahmer, btw.

I recently watched an interview with him (the first one I’ve seen) and heard/read extensively about his horrific crimes all for the first time in a special they aired before the Bundy one (and then Wikipedia).

I had to literally change the channel a few times because of the extensive detail (the eating and dismembering, ugh....) but I was struck by Dahmer’s meek demeanor and how *honest* he was.

He was open about everything from his first memories as a child, to his entire thought and rationalization process, to why he believed he did everything he did. And he basically made no excuses.

He was honest about his thinking process, down to the tiniest detail—even when he admitted that he himself didn’t “understand” it.

I can see why psychiatrists appreciated that openness about his internal workings (and how it could be helpful to them) in contrast to the constant lies and boastings from someone like Bundy (who basically told so many different stories and was reluctant to ever give real insight or truth about himself).

I will say that Dahmer also came across as having a degree of introspection and understanding of what he had done and the fact that he was fucked up—even if he didn’t understand “why”.

There seemed to be no question Dahmer didn’t try to answer as truthfully as possible after he was caught.

What he did was horrific (obviously) but he seemed to have some ability for self-reflection and possibly even empathy—and he definitely seemed like he felt some kind of guilt at the end.

Even though they were both psychopaths and committed similar crimes, the differences between Dahmer and Bundy were very stark.

Bundy *really* seemed to not have any kind of conscience and possibly no ability for introspection. Is it possible he had NPD on top of the psychopathy?

Anyway, thank you again for your post, [R39]. Any other opinions or insight you have to share is very welcome here!

Having computer files of cam whores who have gone missing. In his secret files labeled with an initial for each woman. Yourself in the files under your initial with your sexapades recorded, toilet cams in your own bathroom.

Going to the local cops and FBI and being completely blown off. Ic3 FBI reports of computer crimes being completely ignored by the FBI in 2013, 2014. Long Island County D.A. departments telling you to wipe your machine ( computer) and just move on. Victims of Crime reports going nowhere yet knowing he's out there, strangling and anal rapes, his m.o of victims that answer his ads as "entertainment specialist". An actual linkedin profile. Obsessed with comic forums. Molesting his infant half sister. Seeing a psychologist since 14 years old because of peeping and incest since 12.

This isn't on me any longer. Did what I could. FBI acting like you're the crazy one. It's not on me. It's on them.

"Apparently, Bunny was gang raped by his fellow death row inmates."

Where did you hear that? I don't think I believe it. I've read a couple of biographies of him and I'm sure if that happened it would have been mentioned.

Sorry you have gone through all of this, [R41]/[R49].

I hope you find peace and healing in your soul and life.

Serial killers are a threat to everyone in society and I hope the one that you encountered/knew personally gets caught at some point and his evil is permanently stopped.

[R50], I’m not the same poster upthread, but the prison gang rape of Bundy apparently *did* happen, according to Wikipedia.

It was when he was on death row on Florida in 1984. Bundy denied it happened, but he was a habitual liar who always “had” to be in control, so I’m not surprised at his denial.

Note: His last murder (after his second or 3rd prison escape—the multiple successful escapes being a whole *other* element of crazy to this story) was of a 12 year old girl, named Kimberly Leach, that he abducted from a middle school. (I knew he was evil, but I didn’t known he went after kids/girls as young as *12*).

Even hardened prisoners notoriously hate “kiddie killers”, so I wonder if this is why he was particularly targeted for the gang rape...

Anyway, here is the Wikipedia quote about Bundy’s prison assault, along with a link to the entire article:

“Sometime during this period, Bundy was attacked by a group of his fellow death row inmates.

Though he denied having been assaulted, a number of inmates confessed to the crime, characterized by one source as a "gang rape".[243]

Shortly thereafter, he was charged with a disciplinary infraction for unauthorized correspondence with another high-profile criminal, John Hinckley, Jr.[244]”

Thank you R51. If you think only POC fear crazy cops, think again. Upper middle and Upper class people, white people share the same fear unless you've got your own precinct like in Upper Brookville.

Can't believe Wiki and death Rowe are kept separately. No mixing. It's death rowe afterall.

Seen so much bogus bullshit allowed to float on Wiki, being an insider, completely outraged. Wiki is a joke.

Let us not forget the abuse of white people by black cops in NYC. Their only chance at power and revenge. They feel shitty afterwards to learn you're from the Arctic made of three races but you present as a white, stuck up bitch. But you're not. You're actually a Métis First Nation but a NYC black cop isn't gonna realize your pan face that resembles a Russian emigre had not a stitch to do with problems in the US. That cop is actually gonna be actually right with you winning millions, deep down.

And I see the stormfront folks have arrived.

Agree, [R25]. He was a huge contrast in demeanor and action after he was caught compared to Dahmer (easily seen in the specials on both).

To me, that makes Bundy the scarier of the two. Dahmer seemed to know something was wrong with him and grew up feeling like an outsider in society.

Bundy learned (somehow) to “blend in” and even succeed in society and had zero empathy for other humans, once saying to detectives:

“I'm the most cold-hearted son-of-a-bitch you'll ever meet."

And he said this scary/creepy thing about not having a conscience:

“Guilt doesn't solve anything, really", Bundy said, in 1981. "It hurts you ... I guess I am in the enviable position of not having to deal with guilt." [322].

Dahmer seemed to not really understand society or even himself to some extent—though he acknowledged what he did was wrong after being caught and was very cooperative with trying to give LE insight into his mind and crimes.

Bundy seemed to not care what was right or wrong and to work hard since his youth to “understand” society with the sole purpose of ingratiating himself into it and talking horrific advantage of it—exploiting it really, almost like an alien in a human body surviving by pretending to be a “normal human”.

Similar crimes, but two very different personalities indeed.

I do think that there is relevance in studying Bundy because of how prolific he was and how violent he was combined with his ability to behave “completely normal” in society whenever he wanted to.

That ability to live two lives combined with how “organically” this monster was created: no violent movies or “serial killer porn” type TV shows around like “Dexter” or “CSI” to “inspire” him as a kid, no internet where a young Bundy could have looked up debauched things or seen gore, rape, or crime scenes, etc. He was a kid in a generally “innocent” time in American society.

He came of age in the 50’s for goodness sake, where would he even get the idea to do half of the violent, horrific shit he did? There weren’t even really “famous serial killers” in the media back then.

I wish the profilers from the FBI could have gotten more honest information about Bundy’s early life and childhood and family the way they did on Dahmer.

That’s such a big piece of the puzzle and they didn’t get much.

His own long time defense attorney (the one from the “In Defense Of” program upthread) said that Bundy’s childhood was largely a mystery and “something of an enigma” or something like that.

I think knowing more (true) info about his earliest years and family experiences could have really helped FBI profilers, psychiatrists, and profiling in general. What a waste....

Kids need their dad. It really fucks with the mind not having your dad. I run like hell now if someone reveals they didn't have a dad in their lives. For the hills, I run.

Victims without dads stay stunted, like children. See Chicago for prime examples. Children. Stunted.

" I’m not the same poster upthread, but the prison gang rape of Bundy apparently *did* happen, according to Wikipedia."

There's actually a lot on Wikipedia that's unproven, just speculation. I think the "prison gang rape" of Bundy may just be an unsubstantiated rumor.

The notorious quote about Bundy from Ted’s profiler, FBI Special Agent Bill Hagmaier, who interviewed Bundy for hundreds of hours:

“He was probably the most efficient killing machine that we’ve seen amongst the serial killers we’ve studied.

With his ability to articulate how he made certain choices, why he let certain people live and die, he’s become a standard by which other serial killers are measured.”

A slightly better version of pic

I read Ann Rule's book, The Stranger Beside Me. She used to work with Ted as a volunteer at a suicide prevention hotline in Seattle. In the book she said that everyone thought Ted was great except her dog really did not like him. I guess she was baffled at the time because her dog was very friendly and liked everyone.

Anyone who is interested in the case should read The Stranger Beside Me. It's excellent.

Interesting fact, [R63]. I wonder if most small children were freaked out by him as well.

Is “The Stanger Beside Me” worth reading?

I know it’s a notorious book, but I don’t know how well much Ann “knew” Bundy and how much in the book was filler...

Bundy with his daughter Rosa Bundy (name changed now) who was born in 1982.

Well, folks. Poo Shoes is in the house tonight!

I wondered if you were still around, Poo. Then you started this thread and I realized that you, indeed, are.

The book is really interesting and covers Ann's personal interactions with him, his early life, and crime spree. His crimes were a lot more brutal than I imagined and it's crazy he had a daughter after all the shit he did to women. He looks genuinely happy in that photo. I wonder where his child is today, although I'm sure she's changed her name.

There's another good book about Bundy called "The Only Living Witness." Apparently he gave interviews where he "speculated" on what the serial killer who was killing all those girls did, how he abducted the girl, what he did with them, his mindset, etc. The interviewers assumed he was talking about himself and were horrified. They said you could actually see his evil persona taking over when he dropped his "mask of sanity." They said his eyes, normally blue, would get so dark as to seem almost black. I think that was probably just their imagination. Nobody's eyes turn "dark" but I think the look in his eyes may have changed abruptly when true self came to the surface.

Thanks, [R68], I didn’t know that Rule put that much effort into the book (early life research, etc.) I’m interested in reading it now.

Re: the daughter. Yes, she has apparently changed her name and I read in an online true crime thread that she was traced online (on social media?) through connections to her mother and half brother and that she apparently physically resembles Bundy in several ways, “is a sweet young lady”, and has happily married and had kids of her own.

I don’t know if it’s possible, but according to this quote found from his FBI profiler, Bundy at least gave the impression of caring about the daughter:

“It was in talking about his daughter, Rosa, that Ted Bundy displayed fear about the acts that others like him were capable of committing, Bill Hagmaier says.

He was worried that somewhere in Rosa’s life she would meet a Ted Bundy, that why he told me, ‘You and others need to identify these people,’ Hagmaier said.”

Thank you for the recommendation, [R69]. That sounds like an interesting book (I like investigative true crime shows like “Mindhunter” on Netflix).

I will definitely check it out if I can stand it (all the icky detail).

Ted sounds creepy as hell there!

R58, with all due respect, you're kidding yourself. 1950s was glorified by Hollywood. Society has made leaps and bounds, especially in the 80s. My parents and grandparents knew there were a lot of "crackpots" out there. They feared for us. Before forensics, dummies got away with murder. It was easy then. These sickos always existed, more so then than now. You just didn't hear too much about it. Humans didn't need TV shows Dexter to get ideas. Reprogram yourself to actual reality concerning the nature of human beings. It is traumatic to realise this but you must realise who walks the planet with you. A hard pill to swallow. If you have to dilute it in hot tea to get it down, so be it. Get it down.

R69, his pupils got really big. The rest of us need molly or a hit of E to dilate but not the psychopath. Wired differently.

R66, find it. Kill it!

dwelling on his crimes is kind of rape porn-y

I really worry for the gullible kittens like R58.

What was on his iPod? That’s all that really matters.

R72 lays it out.

I cannot understand how anybody thought this man was attractive. He had ‘serial killer’ written all over his face and the eyes of a prey animal. It shows in every picture. How do people not see it?

No surprise he was a Republican.

He was described as “attractive” by multiple people who met him in person from childhood through adulthood.

I can see the “creepy eyes” thing in multiple pictures (sometimes they look downright demonic).

I *think* what people who describe him as “attractive” are enerally responding to are: his height and lanky frame, the green eyes, his voice, and a certain kind of “charisma” that he has (see any video interview or video from court for that).

I also think they mean that he’s “attractive” compared to “most other serial killers” (like Gacy).

Ooops! That reply above was to [R79].

“One thing he (Bundy) would not discuss was his family life.”

—FBI profiler William Hagmaier (in The Free Lance-Star, 1989)

[quote]Apparently, Bunny was gang raped by his fellow death row inmates.

Complete BS. They are kept in solitary.

How does someone like Bundy, a violent killer in prison on death row, get conjugal visits with his wife?

R41.R49, R53, R55, R59.

Get some sleep, hun.

This a good discussion thread. R39, could his hatred for women be connected to the females in his family failing to protect him from his abusive grandfather? Or, could Ted's intense hatred for women be a learned behavior patterned after his grandfather's physical, emotional and possible sexual abuse of the females in the family?

Holy shit he looks like Christian Bale at r81.

[quote]How does someone like Bundy, a violent killer in prison on death row, get conjugal visits with his wife?

He didn't. He and other inmates paid the guard(s) to look the other way for 5, 10 min. Rule describes it in her book, which I also highly recommend.

I was fortunate enough to interview Ann Rule shortly before Bundy's execution.

We touched on many topics in her book, which I had recently read, and I found her answers to be open and measured, and very compassionate toward the victims and their families.

The one thing I remember most is asking her whether his execution should be delayed in hopes of him revealing more info that would give the families closure and peace.

Rule emphatically said no. Because Bundy was so manipulative, she said he would somehow escape yet again and continue killing.

She never said directly, but I believe she still was in fear of him. Especially should he find himself roaming free again.

She also said he kinda screwed himself by waiting too long to offer up new info. It was winter and the ground was frozen so authorities would not be able to dig where he said bodies were buried. And they were not willing to put off his execution until springtime thaw.

Guess they agreed with her!

I love Ann Rule. Her Gary Ridgway book was very creepy and captivating.

Yup and Ridgway himself was creepy and captivating. He operated very much in my time and place. I actually find Green River Killer more scary for that reason!

Why is h-wood still deaperate to make zac happen? How many flops must he have to be done? He'll never come out if crappywood continues to push him.

I frequently drive by a place where Bundy abducted one of his victims in SOuth King County. Bundy looks like a psycho creep, not sure why people are finding him “attractive”.

Great story, [R90]. Thank you for sharing your experience! Awesome that you were able to interview Rule at such a crucial time.

Did you get the sense that she was worried that Bundy would personally come after her if he escaped again (like did he have a personal beef with her)? Or was she more in fear for the general population?

Also: did she give you any more insight on Ted than you previously had? (I imagine it was more intense—and possibly informative—actually speaking about him with her *in person*).

Thank you again for your post!

Really R80? Such a narrow world you live in, bringing everything down to Republican/Democrat as right/wrong reasoning. And no, I didn't vote for the nut job president and no, I'm not Republican.

Did Rule have any interaction with him after he was arrested? Did he read her book and then threaten her?

Yes, r97. He was arrested several times and she was at his trials. I met and corresponded with Ann several times. She was incredibly kind. She was actually quite naive when I came to reading people. For example, she watched how kind Ryan O'neal was to Farrah on the set of the Diane Downs movie and therefore didn't believe all the horrible things said about Ryan.

Gary Ridgeway attended several of Ann Rule talks and even asked a question about the Green River killer. Ann's daughter was creeped out by him (she was at the talk too) and mentioned him to her Mom.

Is that a true story, [R99]? Crazy if true! I had always thought/read that Ridgway was over the top about being “under the radar” and not making himself “noticed” anywhere.

That’s pretty brazen behavior compared to what I’ve read about him....

Thanks, [R98]. Your insights about Rule are interesting and make sense.

I always wondered how a “former policewoman”, crime writer, and crime and rape ‘expert’ like Rule never sensed (even on some gut level) that she was in the presence of a sociopath and rapist/serial killer when she worked and was friends with Bundy.

You’d think that if *anyone* could sense such a thing about someone in their midst (in the beginning), and “see the signs”, it would be someone with the experience in criminal study that Ann had.

It has always puzzled me that she didn’t “read him” better or get a sense of his darkness with her background...

More Zac Efron filming as Ted Bundy with Lily Collins playing one of Ted’s famous longtime girlfriends...

I’m just *not* seeing him as Bundy at this point.

Also: Bundy looked tall and lanky, but was allegedly 5’10; Efron looks like a shrimp here regardless of his height.

It just seems like bad casting.

Ted was seen as “handsome” but not “pretty”—Efron has always been pretty.

The choice of Efron is really a head scratcher...

Also, can anyone here imagine *Zac Efron* convincingly saying typical/infamous Bundy lines like: “I'm as cold a motherfucker as you've ever put your fucking eyes on. I don't give a shit about those people." ?

Lily Collins as Bundy’s longtime gf, Elizabeth “Liz” Kloepfer, who was with Bundy for something like 8 years and whose memoirs the film is based on...

Wow, even Jim Parsons somehow got lured into this shitshow...

Efron looks to be about 5’4 in almost every pic here

Wrapping up the filming of this masterpiece

Efron/“Ted” being questioned about the infamous “murder kit” that a Utah state trooper found in the back of Bundy’s VB Beetle after a routine traffic stop.

(The cop was about the let Bundy go before he found it because Bundy seemed so “normal”)

The real police photo of Bundy’s “murder bag”—ice pick, crowbar, homemade masks, ropes, handcuffs, and black Glad trash bags (from 1975).

My God, this man was an evil psychopath...

Same exact kit, but in color.

If anyone finds a friend or family member in possession of a similar duffel bag and contents: red flag!

I read somewhere that when it came time for his execution he had to be dragged out of his cell, fighting and crying like a little bitch. If that's not true, then it should be.

There's so much BS about serial killers and unsolved crimes out there. Many years ago I went to a seminar given by someone with the FBI. There were current law enforcement people there. Whenever the guy started talking about a particular case, he's ask if anyone had worked on it first. He said he always did this because he was tired of talking about a case, and someone in the back of the room pipeing up and telling him his information was wrong. This was before internet was so prevailent.

R89, I heard that story, too. But could you imgine the shitstorm if he had killed the woman while having sex with her?!

He was a true chameleon. He could part his hair a different way, grow a beard, make little changes in his appearance and look like a different person. In some of his photos he does look like an attractive buy. In others he looks quite disturbed.

What made Ted Bundy what he was? Well, it was partly hereditary, maybe mostly hereditary. His grandfather was a very violent disturbed man. Nothing is known about his father. His mother was seduced by a man who dumped her and left her, never to be seen or heard from again.. She didn't even know if the name he gave her was his real one. As a small child Bundy exhibited unsettling behavior so it's possible he was born with a brain defect that made him become a serial killer. His upbringing didn't help much. As a small child he grew up thinking his mother was his sister. He was ashamed of his illegitimacy and was told about it when some relative blurted it out (his mother didn't bother to tell him). He was ashamed of being lower middle class and coveted the expensive possessions other children seemed to have, so he started stealing to get the things he wanted. He was immature and shallow. But he could project an image of a charming, intelligent, engaging young man, which no doubt aided him when it came to abducting young women. Ted Bundy was one of the more interesting serial killers. I tend to think that something was wrong with him from the beginning. He was born that way.

R53, your comment about white and middle/upper class people just makes you sound like a cunt. You undid everything you stated previously with that bullshit. Sure, cops scare and intimidate a lot of people. However, they don’t target, single out, profile, or intimidate white people in the manner that they do with black people.

R49, R51 and R53 is a racist, unhinged, BPD bitch who has wandered into Datalounge for further placating and attention, probably having broken down every single relationship and contact in her life.

Sorry, R49, R53 and R55. Not R51.

Look, OP when blocked, is revealed to be the poster of most comments. OP is a crazy frau, with some disturbing fixation with Mr Bundy, and I suspect she is creaming her size 26 panties, experiencing secondary gain by posting here. Don’t feed the fat, pathetic troll (god knows she is porcine and corpulent as it is)

Lmao, they didn't even bother to have efron lose the weight to look as thin as ted was. If they actually eanted to do a quality film they would have gone with michael fassbender or someone to that talent extent.

Efron is too good looking. Bundy could be handsome, maybe but not Zac Efron pretty. He would’ve stood out like a sore thumb and easy to spot. People as handsome as Efron turn heads when they walk into a room. Bundy could blend in much better.

Is this a TV movie he’s making?

I remember reading that one of the psychologists was with Bundy, interviewing him, and Ted was just "charming Ted".

Right then, word arrived that his last appeal was denied and that his execution was to go ahead.

The man who was with him at the time said that you could actually see Bundy change from charming Ted to evil Ted in that moment.

I always thought that that was what his victims experienced when they realized what he really was.

Young Ted was very handsome. But he was a chameleon and could look wildly different at times.

Has anyone seen the 1986 2 part move "The Deliberate Stranger" starring Mark Harmon as Bundy?

Here's a clip dramatizing his first attempt to pick up a woman at the lake. She walks away, but he did succeed with 2 other girls that same day.

R119, there was a woman who got away from him at a Seattle shopping mall. She saw him change too and said he looked like two different people.

He changed her life, and even though she lived she had to have been pretty damaged by him. She had to testify at every trial and look at him in the court room. He had her in his VW and was trying to cuff her to the car but she broke away and flagged someone down.

Sorry. Here's the link for R121.

Yes, I’ve seen the Harmon movie a few times. For its time, it was very well done. It brought to light the limits of technology back then. The resulting lack of info sharing, and communication between agencies as he made his way around the map.

I brought up Bundy in a bio-psych class once. It was concerning what made a true psychopath. My prof was emphatic that it was both nature, but mainly nurture. Horrifying events happened in his early childhood.

Yes, R122. That was Carol DaRonch.

Here's the clip on that from "The Deliberate Stranger".

R122]/[R125], in one of the “extra” (cutting room floor) clips they currently have up with Bundy’s defense lawyer, John Henry Browne, on the Oxygen “In Defense of: Ted Bundy” special web page, Browne calls DaRonch a “hero” and said that without her escape, memory, testimony, and pursuit of justice in her kidnapping case (the first case that actually got Bundy arrrested and officially put him on the LE “radar”) that Ted may never have been caught and might still be out there “killing today”.

It was very interesting, and I didn’t realize how much DaRonch’s escape and ability to remember things about Bundy and his car, etc., was a break in the case and made a difference in identifying Bundy as a potential serial killer to the police.

Quote from Carol about Bundy to People mag after Ted’s execution in 1989:

“I’ll never forget that wicked smile as long as I live,” she says.

No one who entered Ted Bundy’s warped universe was left unscarred, and Carol is no exception.

“I don’t trust people like I used to,” she admits. “You can’t anymore. It’s an evil world out there.” Still, she thinks she has overcome the worst of her experience. “I’ve decided to try and block it from my memory,” she says. “You can’t live in fear forever.”

Is the Mark Harmon Bundy movie worth watching? I definitely like Harmon as an actor, but can’t really imagine him playing evil or playing Bundy.

He comes across as 100% nice guy in most roles to me.

I thought Mark Harmon was good in the role because you saw "charming Ted". Like in that clip at R123. It's only because the first girl really did back away (and later saw Bundy with one of the girls who disappeared, I believe) that you have an idea of how he managed to get close so many women. The movie also showed some of his private life and his interaction with a girlfriend.

I didn't read the book mentioned by posters above, so I can't comment on how truthfully the script followed the actual facts.

And it was network TV so you really didn't see the extreme violence.

Rather you knew it was him doing the murders and you saw the beginning of his interaction with possible victims, but it's only at the end that they show him in the Florida college murders that you get an idea of his real violence. But even then, although you did see some violence, it was nothing like what is much more common on TV and cable today.

Answering R95 ...

I did not get the impression that Ann Rule was scared for her personal safety. Just that Bundy was too evil to live amongst us. She thought execution was the rightful outcome.

She noted he was always rather protective toward her. Walking her to her car, for example, or bringing her treats and small gifts.

She also mentioned she sat through some of his court dates and he kept turning around to look at her. As if he were checking to make sure she was still there. Like a little kid.

The one thing that shocked her was how he changed personalities so quickly and dramatically. She said she only saw it a couple times. Said it was 'like the mask came off and you could see the evil.' Creepy as fuck!

I can’t understand that Koepfler chick.

And why would other convicts help him get an opportunity to impregnate his “wife”? I thought their was an honor code among these fellow lowlifes against childkillers.

[R44], thank you for your post and for sharing your experience about being in WA when Bundy was active. It’s interesting to read a first hand account of what “the locals” were going through during his reign of terror.

Your parents sound like they were *very* smart people.

I’m sure it sucked to not be able to freely go where you and your sisters wanted to go when you were kids, but your parents actions may well have saved your lives.

Especially when you read that Bundy was abudcting girls (sometimes two at a time!) from areas you specifically mentioned, like Lake Sammamish, it’s just frightening to think about and makes your parent’s decisions seem very sound in hindsight.

Also: I appreciated reading your first hand account of that time period, because I found the Oxygen specials and some of the articles I read kind of confusing (regarding America’s reaction to these crimes before Bundy was caught for them).

They talk about how young, beautiful, middle class women (media catnip essentially) were disappearing *all over the Seattle area and then later across the county* (and they would often find the naked bodies) but there didn’t seem to be a sense of “urgency” or mass fear in the public like we have today.

Women were still contributing to get in cars with strangers, help men who were walking around in (possibly fake) casts, and doors were left unlocked, etc., even after a lot of these attacks were happening.

There also didn’t seem to be much report of women or families in regular society responding to these crimes with significant behavioral changes (becoming more fearful and paranoid) or becoming more “savvy” when it came to strange men and self protection.

Nowadays, if one pretty girl or women goes missing or ends up dead, it’s front page news, there are manhunts, and people then freak out about their own families across the country—women buy pepper spray, stay in groups, and take self defense classes, etc.

But with Bundy and all these young women’s bodies continually being found, it seemed like (from the Oxygen specials) that young women and people in general just seemed to go on with “business as usual”—which I just found so odd because these crimes were so terrible and happening at such a fast rate with basically no leads....

Below: Ted Bundy with his infamous yellow looking VW Beetle (the one he apparently used in his kidnappings and to drive hundreds of miles around the country committing various evil deeds).

Eldergays: were VW bugs that popular in the ‘70s or would Bundy’s car have stood out?

If you were hitchhiking back then, is that they type of car you would get into for a ride?

[quote]There also didn’t seem to be much report of women or families in regular society responding to these crimes with significant behavioral changes (becoming more fearful and paranoid) or becoming more “savvy” when it came to strange men and self protection.

Kids (especially girls) up until the last few decades were taught to go out of their way to be polite and to help others. If an adult made demands on a child, they HAD to be obeyed. This mandate was so ingrained that kids complied even when they felt uneasy or their instincts told them they should run. It's only been since the 1980's that children have been taught to fight, scream and run if an adult stranger approached them.

I always taught my kids that there is NEVER any reason an adult would need to ask a kid for help or they had to be obeyed. Never respond. Run away and get help. We rehearsed some of the standard tricks these sick fucks use to lure kids---impersonating a cop, help finding a lost dog, using candy as bait, saying a family member is in the hospital--"get in the car and I'll take you there".

Perhaps, R132, it was only after the nice looking, clean cut, charming Ted was caught and the media visibility that surrounded him, that people, women in particular, were awakened to the fact that such a person can be more than dangerous - but a murderous fiend.

Seeing Bundy, how he looked, smiled, dressed, after he was caught, and reading about his education, etc. would have caused young women to ask themselves if they themselves might have been one of the unlucky ones if charming Ted had asked them to "help" him lift something into his car.

It was an awakening to a previously unknown danger and ugliness that could surround the unwary and the unprepared.

It did seem it was standard for people to "go missing" in the 70's. It was viewed as normal. If you read the Wiki on Dean Coryll, and it is gruesome and disturbing, it said the police didn't take serious all the young boys disappearing around Houston and, in particular, this one small area. He would have been caught easily had they bothered to lift a finger. Instead, he went on a rampage of murder and sadism. His sadism was far worse than Bundy. Far worse. He was America's worst serial killer at the time.

R136, I think John Wayne Gacy ranks above or at least equal to Coryll and Bundy confessed to killing more people. Neither Gacy nor Bundy were exactLy what you would consider humane in dealing with their victims. Why do you consider him to be the worst serial killer?

r2, Tell that to his over 50+ plus victims families u stankin ass faggot.

Corll and Gacy would torture their victims before killing them. I don't know if Bundy ever did that.

R137 If you read the wiki page, he was considered the worst at the time. Gacy overshadowed him but Corll was by far the worst sadist. The things he did to his victims before killing them was horrific. Bundy never tortured the way Corll did.

Btw- my grandparents lived 5 streets away from the street Corll lived on when he was killed. My dad went to the elementary near the street Corll lived and was killed on. My dad of the age of Corll's victims at the time. Shockingly, Corll didn't hunt in Pasadena like he did around his other homes in Houston and only killed on boy from Pasadena. Their neighbor remembered seeing Corll at the store all the time.

^^^ one boy

Ted Bundy's breath was torture. He let me go after a night of foreplay and intercourse. I was one of the lucky ones - I was hoping he'd call back. Ted was always moving onto something new. Very motivated guy.

^^If he had dragon breath, why did you want him to call back?

Is [R142] a parody post?

Of COURSE R142 is a parody post. God, you people will believe anything.

I don't laugh about that night. The aftermath consumed the next 12 years of my life.

[R142]/[R146] spill if you’re for real!!

He sure loved his turtlenecks!

(Allegedly he got into the habit of wearing them in order to cover up his *one* main identifying physical characteristic—which was a mole on his neck. Bundy was aware of his chameleon-like features and abilities and recognized the neck mole as the one thing that could potentially give him away with eyewitnesses...)

What do people mean that he could change appearance at will. Like he could physically manifest himself his appearance and facial structure?

R149 People who knew him would say there was just something about him that gave off the appearance of someone who could change his physical features. If you have ever listened to survivors of serial killers they often say this. You often here them say when they first met them, they seemed normal and nice. But once they jumped into predator mode( ready to kill), they looked like a completely different person. Ted seemed to be able to do this even when he wasn't in predator mode.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

True story- this was around the time of the Mark Harmon mini-series on Ted.

I was at a neighbors house down the street playing board games with his mom and dad. We left to go to my house to pick something up. Maybe gone 15 minutes or less. As we were walking up to his door, we saw a bloody butcher knife, blood all over the his door and no lights on. I turned around in a split second and ran so fast down to my house. No fucking way a serial killer was getting me. We got to my house ran in, told my mom who called his house. NO ANSWER. We called again. NO ANSWER. We called again. NO ANSWER. We were about to call the police when my mom tried on more time. Finally, his mom answered. We found out it was a prank his friends played on us. I just knew a Ted was gonna get me. lol

[quote]Reading about these guys does a number on your head, because you want to empathize, just feel any little thing, but you just absorb their emptiness.

R39 is correct. There is nothing at the core of these type, just emptiness, which is how I conceive of evil. It's a void, where there should be a soul. Ultimately, these types make their decisions. They chose to become what they are. It's those choices that frighten us. They are exercising free will, as we all can and do. Thank God most of us exercise it with others' rights in mind.

One of the people interviewed on those documentaries had an odd comment. (Sorry, I can't remember for sure, but I believe it was one of the psychologists who was interviewing him.) The man remarked that he saw Ted "lose control" in the sense that "charming Ted" was replaced by the other. The man said that during the time the "other Ted" was there, he (the psychologist?) noticed an odd, white lateral mark appear under Bundy's eye. The man said that as Bundy got control of himself and the "other Ted" went away, the mark gradually faded and eventually disappeared altogether.

Creepy.

I wish I could pull up that bit of the documentary.

There seemed to be some debate on the Oxygen special (“Snapped: Infamous Ted Bundy”) about whether or not Bundy had a high IQ.

Anyone know what the truth is?

(Even if his IQ wasn’t astronomical, he seemed to have a type of cunning and manipulative ability that would suggest that he was intelligent in some way..)

[R87], those are the *exact* same questions I’ve been asking/wondering myself since I saw the Bundy Oxygen specials and read the Wiki on Bundy.

The evil grandfather was his only *male* family member in his earliest years, and all the guy seemed to do was to use his power to abuse and control the (all) female family members that lived in that house with him and baby/toddler Ted.

I wonder how much worse the family dynamic was than we even currently *know* about and how much of all that contributed to making him the “Ted Bundy” that he because.

I also tend to think that because *this* (Bundy’s early home life and upbringing and his family members) was the *only* topic Bundy was super secretive about discussing and so reluctant to talk about with any depth (to anyone), that a lot of the answers as to why he became the way he was and what environment may have helped “create” a Ted Bundy type individual, lie right there—with his family.

He told other top detectives about how his family’s opinion of him was a huge reason he would *never* confess to certain “even worse” things that he did—because anything that would upset the family too much was off limits, basically

That was pretty chilling.

But I also think that it just all goes to show again that the Bundy family and history held dark secrets and were a significant part of creating such a monster with Ted.

We’ll probably never know too many specifics though, because this vicious, amoral serial killer cared about nothing and no one on earth....except that family...

Corll would have started hunting in and around Pasadena. He had already killed one boy from there (his last victim, James Stanton Dreymala) and was in the process of starting to hunt there. I think he would have stayed in the Pasadena house for awhile because his dad owned it.

Btw- the house he killed at, 2020 Lamar, had the bedroom where he killed 8 victims removed. It went from a 3 bedroom to 2 bedroom.

Isn't Bundy suspected of killing a young girl in his neighbourhood as a teenager? He implied he had killed several children, and those were ones would upset his family.

There is that suspicion, but the little girl was never found. I think they did some tests and came up negative, but who knows.

I watched another Bundy documentary last night where Ann Rule was one of the interviewees.

She said that Bundy's mother never believed he was guilty until the night before his execution, Bundy told his mother that he was guilty.

"What do people mean that he could change appearance at will. Like he could physically manifest himself his appearance and facial structure?"

This is from "The Only Living Witness":

"He spent the first half of 1969 at Temple University with mixed results. A special urban affairs project was never completed, but he did moderately well in theatrical arts classes. Ted learned a little something about acting and makeup. He also bought a fake mustache. By now he had made another realization about himself: his face lacked any single characteristic that stood out above the rest. Like the personality he was creating, his face could be anything he wanted it to be. The mustache, combing his hair differently, gaining or losing a few pounds, growing a beard...all changed his appearance dramatically. He could, when he wished, be an anonymous as he wanted. He had, as one of his judges later observed, "the face of a changeling."

One of the documentaries showed a set of his various mug shots.

Even though you knew it was him, sometimes you really had to concentrate to "see" him in the mug shot.

How about these?

I’m not sure why anyone would intentionally become pregnant by Ted Bundy, or any serial killer, for that matter. I’d be terrified of the child’s genetic predisposition.

I wonder if his grandchildren will have “issues”.

Thank you for your post and for posting an excerpt from that book, [R160]!

I had no idea that Bundy actually took some acting and theatre classes as far back as ‘69; very interesting.

When you read about these people (like Bundy) you wonder how or where they develop some of the “skills” they do to perpetuate their evil and manipulate others.

His picking up certain skills from his theatre classes is very interesting and makes sense (I had read about him easily employing various disguises, changing his entire face with the slightest expression, and being caught with fake mustaches if I am recalling correctly—not to even mention the whole act he frequently did with pretending to be handicapped and on crutches or wearing real casts he had made, etc. to lure many of the victims).

I had thought once or twice while reading the Wiki on him and seeing the Oxygen specials, that if he had chosen to go *a totally different way* with his life (i.e. chosen a non-evil path), with his lack of any core sense of self, love of the limelight and being around people, alleged natural charisma, and easily alterable looks, maybe he could have gone into acting or theater and used some of that in a positive way.

So it was interesting to read your post about him and the theater classes in college.

Too bad he chose to be an evil psycho instead...

I think a young Brad Davis would have been a good choice to play Bundy. He had a look about him that resembled Bundy and he was so fucked up he could have captured Bundy's mental disturbance perfectly.

Ooooh, good choice, [R165]. I agree, young Davis would have done a good job in that type of role (R.I.P.)

This Zac Efron thing is unbelievable. It’s some of the most ridiculous casting Hollywood has come up with in a long time.

If Bundy or any serial killer had had “stunning”, pretty, and chiseled looks like Efron or a young Brad Pitt, no way would they have been able to “blend into” the crowd and move through society largely unnoticed during a 4 or 5 year murder spree.

Witnesses, crowds, everyone would have stared at them everywhere they went and definitely remembered what they looked like.

There’s also the issue of Efron not really being able to act...

Young Billy Davis—not sure what the modern equivalent of him would be in terms of actors.

R153, I disagree with your free will statement.

Ted Bundy was not exercising free will, even when he chose to not kill certain people. He was either made a psychopath, or born as one, or both, therefore, he had no choice but to kill. He was a natural born killer, as they say.

Bundy was always going to kill from a certain point in his life, on. I am not sure where that line was crossed, but it was crossed before he ever conceived of murder. He was just a really fucked up human being.

Some people are just born this way.

And by the way, lots of people who are not psychopaths, are empty.

I have a former work acquaintance who is one of the emptiest souls I’ve ever met. He buys expensive cars, homes, clothes, trips, etc., and he is never happy or satisfied. For Bundy, murdering women was the equivalent of buying stuff. The difference between my former colleague and Bundy is that one spends money to feel powerful, while the other commits sadistic, mortal acts. They are similar in that they are both intelligent, charming, and semi attractive, with the ability to act normal. But both are empty, and filled with self loathing, and deeply rooted insecurities regarding social class and standing.

One of the most chilling and well made thrillers I’ve ever seen was “Primal Fear” starring Richard Gere and a young Edward Norton (Norton is especially excellent here).

*MOVIE SPOILERS BELOW*

Gere is the defense lawyer working on Norton’s case and he genuinely believes Norton to be innocent, until the final scene of the film.

In that scene, Norton’s face, voice, and even his inflections and expressions change dramatically as he tells Gere in graphic detail how he committed the murder and how he fooled Gere and everyone—after Gere secures him a “Not Guilty” verdict.

Norton’s character tells Gere all this with relish and it’s a terrifying scene where you see a huge change in a character you’ve spent the whole film seeing a certain way—and you can really see “the mask drop” from “nice guy” to pure evil.

I’ve never forgotten that movie, and I’ve always wondered if that scene was what it was like for FBI agents and others (probably victims as well) who encounter these sociopaths living “two lives” like Bundy and his ilk, and how it feels to them when they see “the mask come off”, as it’s been described.

***END OF MOVIE SPOILERS****

They also should have looked for a young Edward Norton or a young Sam Rockwell type for this Bundy movie—both great character actors who are decent looking but can completely “disappear” into their roles, rather than ex-Disney star Zac Efron...

“Primal Fear” is an excellent movie for any who haven’t seen it btw; well worth a watch even if you know the ending.

R169, firing it up right now on Amazon Prime. I saw it years ago, but looking forward to seeing it again.

Cool, [R170]; I didn’t know it was up on Amazon Prime! Please come back with your thoughts after you see it again!

I saw "Primal Fear." I thought it was overrated and predictable.

I knew girls who cut their long straight brown hair short and dyed it blonde, because of the "One Man Crusade to Rid the Northwest of Brunettes."

There are at least 3 different movies about Bundy with 3 different actors.

1. 'The Deliberate Stranger" (1986) with Mark Harmon as Bundy.

2. "Bundy" (2002) with Michael Reilly Burke as Bundy.

3. Ann Rule Presents "The Stranger Beside Me" (2003) with Billy Campbell as Bundy and Barbara Hershey as Ann Rule.

The last 2 are on Youtube. The first has clips on Youtube.

Interesting, [R173]. That actually makes some sense to me—even though it may sound extreme.

We have things like Amber Alerts and mass media and social hysteria now over *one* missing girl, but in the specials I saw on Bundy it didn’t seem like society at large was reacting in any defensive way to these huge amounts of missing and dead young women. I didn’t get that at all.

You would think that after ‘72, no young woman would get near the car of any man that she didn’t know really well and college campuses would have beefed up security *everywhere*.

It didn’t seem like there were adequate public warnings or reactions to Bundy’s crimes (which helped them continue)...

By the way, [R173], why do say “the ‘70s sucked” (in general)?

I was just remembering a Haiku that I read once that always makes me chuckle R175...

The Seventies sucked. They were just like the Sixties, Except they sucked more.

I think people overstate Ted Bundy's ability to move smoothly through society. Only a short part of his life was spent studying and having legitimate jobs; after a certain number of women had been killed, he was always on the run and living at the margins. You can see it in some of the mugshots.

There was a Soviet serial killer named prisoner X who makes Bundy look like Little Bo Peep. Very dysfunctional aspects of Soviet and Russian society allowed him to kill many more people and get away with it longer than Bundy did.

I *really* don’t get Hollywood sometimes...

This (below)

Looks nothing like *this*

He was the worst sick bastard ever, he repeatedly visited the bodies of his victims and had sex with their corpses.

*The* infamous girlfriend—the first gf of Ted Bundy (who he met in college and) who was from a very well to do CA family and who he had allegedly hoped to marry at first.

She also had the infamous “dark hair parted in the middle” that allegedly sparked his obsession with it for the rest of his life, and was apparently a key deciding factor in all the subsequent victims he “chose”.

Her breaking up with him caused “a long, deep depression” and many experts have theorized that it ignited that darkness that lay mostly dormant in Bundy at the time. His “spree” (full time killing) started soon after the breakup.

She was always referred to in Bundy literature as “Stephanie Brooks” (a pseudonym), but her real name was Diane...

It’s weird to me—as far as the study of serial killers go—that several of them are (I assume) already evil bastards inside, but don’t start becoming full time rapists and killers until a dramatic personal breakup...

This also came up a few times with some of the serial killers they interviewed on the Netflix show “Mindhunter”.

Obviously, the breakups themselves don’t “cause” these guys to be evil, but the breakup with a girlfriend was a common thread with several serial killers (them becoming full time violent psychos after the bteakup).

Oddly though, they never try to harm the girlfriend that they perceived “wronged them” and that they’re obviously obsessed with. Theyjust start going after other women (strangers).

Bundy had Diane and The Golden State Killer, Joseph DeAngelo, had “Bonnie”—whose name he would often cry out while committing his many violent crimes. So bizarre....

Okay, I just finished watching Primal Fear on Amazon with Ed Norton. I watched it years ago and thought it was great. Unfortunately it just doesn't hold up well. The problem is it doesn’t work when you already know the ending. I was watching him too carefully for his mask to slip, and it did….a lot. His stutter wasn’t consistent. Norton lapsed into full-on soliloquies that were perfect - no stutter.

The movie doesn’t stand the test of time either. Multiple Personality Disorder? LOL. Oh, please. Even decades ago, when split personality was still considered to be a real “thing”, it was a very rare diagnosis. It took teams of doctors countless hours of interviews, often over years, to make that determination. This guy was diagnosed by one dopey psychologist after she witnessed mild mannered Ian fly off the handle--- ONCE.

No one questioned that the murderer was just acting? No one researched his background to see if his backstory of extreme abuse checked out? It was a high profile case. No one from his home town, school or jobs came forward to say, “hey, this guy isn’t what he claims to be”? So lame. And it just ends. He never says ‘why' he killed the priest.

One awesome thing I should mention is Norton's demeanor when he finally admits he's a murdering psychopath. His face changes and his eyes roll up into his head. Many (most?) psychos have those eyes where the whites show under the iris. It's very creepy. Interesting that he chose to play it that way.

Also, Laura Linney and Richard Gere are both young and stunningly beautiful. So there that. Worth watching for the eye candy.

Diana Downs--killed her children.

Whites visible under the Iris. If you see this, run.

Karla Homolka. Helped her husband rape and kill several teenagers including her own sister.

Ian Brady - Scottish serial killer.

Sleepy eyed Jeffry Dahmer - the upper lid usually covers part of the upper iris and the white shows underneath

Okay, question. Why is there another movie about Bundy? Who wants or needs to see this? Why do we publicize and obsess over scum like this in the name of "art"?

Those photos all have the psychos looking up, wouldn't we all have the whites of our eyes showing while looking up?

Because there is a lot of drama in it, r189.

No, because not everyone is 70 years old. The Bundy story will be new to them. It would be much better as a 6 part series on TV though (without Efron) No other serial killer's life and murders are worth exploring. They are either too gruesome or the perpetrator was just plain nuts. Bundy is the top tier psychopath.

Programming Note: For anyone interested, Oxygen is following up its 3 hours of new Ted Bundy specials from 2 weeks ago with a new 2 hour special about the Golden State Killer, Joseph DeAngelo, which airs tonight.

The new special is supposed to contain fresh biographical and background information on DeAngelo as well as lengthy interviews with the hot cop who helped finally nab the GSK, detective Paul Holes....

Links and website info below!

Ooops, I guess it actually premiered last night (Aug. 4th)? Anyway, it’s still running several times today, and it looks like they already put the whole thing up online.

Here is the link that looks to contain the entire new 2hr GSK show to watch online if you don’t have Oxygen...

JFC. Who watches the Oxygen Network???

Jung: “Shame is a soul eating emotion.”

Shame is what breeds pychopaths. He was a "bastard," an out-of-wedlock child.

It's surprising, yet delightful, how people can be so stupid...

[quote]That ability to live two lives combined with how “organically” this monster was created: no violent movies or “serial killer porn” type TV shows around like “Dexter” or “CSI” to “inspire” him as a kid, no internet where a young Bundy could have looked up debauched things or seen gore, rape, or crime scenes, etc. He was a kid in a generally “innocent” time in American society.

Porn existed. He even admitted he was a porn addict. Pre-internet when a killer or serial killer was caught they usually found "a large collection of pornographic material" wherever they lived.

Abusive father, cold upbringing without normal bonding, shame over being born out of wedlock, keeping up a fake image, addicted to porn - there's the combination

A young Greg Kinnear

r188, we don't, but hollywood is bankrupt of ideas morally and creatively.

VW bugs were around in the 70s and considered a fun car for young people.

R200, If love to get myself a VW classic bug. Still one of my favorite cars.

When I read "Stranger Beside Me" what struck me was the absolute brazenness of Bundy's attacks. He didn't target women leading high risk lives, like the Yorkshire Ripper or Green River killer. He tried to abduct a teacher on an evening when she was producing the school play! He did abduct one woman from inside a hotel. It must have been terrifying for women at the time, because nowhere was safe, not even your own locked house.

Imagine a nice looking guy on crutches, trying to carry some books and fumbling and dropping them. He asks for your help to get them to his little car nearby.

You agree to help and pick up the books.

As you get to the car, you lean in to put the books on the car seat.

While you are doing this, he picks up the crowbar he has left nearby and hits you over the head and while you are unconscious moves you into the car seat and drives away.

That *is* freaky, [R203].

It’s also one of the main reasons I personally consider Bundy to be the scariest American serial killer; his “guy next door” looks and ability to present an outwardly personable and well spoken demeanor, as well as that very specific way he often “lured” in his victims (playing a nice, normal guy just having a little trouble while disabled in some way—as you described well) was terrifying....

Don't hate me, but I do think that, in some of those pictures, Efron does resemble Bundy. Maybe it's just the lighting, costumes, and hair, but I can see him physically passing for him. It's not like Mark Harmon was a dead ringer, either. In many ways, he was too pretty as well. I'm just nervous about Zac's acting. He's not terribly good. This could either be a huge breakthrough for him or a camp classic.

R188 because it is fascinating how a human could do this, how they operate, how the police organize to look for them. I want a true big budget Dean Corll movie. Gacy overshadowed him just because of the clown angle but Corll, Corona and Gacy were truly sadistic and did things to their victims, while they were alive, that is horrific. Corll no doubt killed more than 28.

That ratfucker James Dobson of the Family Research Council got sucked in by Bundy during his last desperate months, when Bundy tried to blame it all on access to pornography, which was music to Dobson's ears. Apparently FRC has been making a nice bit of cash selling audio recordings of the interviews.

[quote]Okay, question. Why is there another movie about Bundy? Who wants or needs to see this?

I agree, it's sick to even think there should be a movie about this.

R207, I cannot stand Dobson.

He’s blaming it all on Satan and porn. No. This is a puzzle for science to solve.

R209 Dobson IS Satan.

R28 Ted Bundy claimed that his mom passed him off as her brother to garner sympathy, but it's simply not true. He and his mother lived with her parents in Philadelphia until he was 4. Then he moved with his mom to Tacoma, Washington. When he was 5, his mom married Johnny Bundy, who legally adopted him.

His mother had 4 more kids with Johnny Bundy, but I've heard almost nothing about them.

How come you never hear about black men being serial killers. Is the white species naturally more satanic.

Serial Killer Myth #6: They Are All White.

Cereal Killer:

The dog definitely has homicidal tendencies.

Please don't bring race into this thread or subject. There's too much of that on this site. We don't need it.

My question has always been: why are so many serial killers from the pacific northwest?

Because there are a lot of people with no roots in the PNW.

And it is not a friendly place.

R215, A non Rule claimed there aren't more serial killers in the PNW, there are more true crime writers there. Mi hope that's true.

A non = Ann

Hopefully that’s true, [R217], but it might just be wishful thinking....

I will say that it’s true that in a lot of the most “infamous” serial killing cases in the Pacific *southwest* (specifically the former hotbed of such activities, California!) the killers—like Manson, Ramirez (“the Night Stalker”), and the Hillside Strangler(s)—were not originally from CA at all, and they had no real connection to the state.

Bump!

About possible brain abnormalities -- Richard Speck died of natural causes in jail (heart attack), so his brain was viable for dissection and examination. A neuroscientist who examined the tissue said that there was no barrier between his hippocampus and amyglada as though they were beginning to fuse together. The sample was sent to another expert in the field but was mishandle/lost during transport. t's unfortunate that electrocution was the method of execution rendering Bundy's brain unusable for such examination.

Interesting, [R221]; what would those details you mentioned about Richard Speck’s brain lead experts to theorize (or suggest) about the brains of serial killers (or at least just his brain)?

Didn’t Dahmer’s parents offer his brain to be studied as well?

[quote]he brutally murdered and raped at least 36 women

It's funny how his victims are often described as "women", even though they included tweens as young as 12, whereas John Way Gacy's victims are described as "young men and boys", even though they were the same age range as Ted Bundy's victims as his youngest target was 2 years older than Ted's.

* Wayne

There is speculation that he was the product of incest. That his mother (who he thought was his sister) was for years molested by her father (his grandfather). This would make sense......if true, he too was probably molested by the grandfather OR his mother OR both.....it is not unusual and more usual in incest cases..generational.

He was a very interesting serial killer. Most of them aren't. Most of them are just unattractive, nondescript losers. Like the Texas serial killer Dean Corll, for instance. He was "the Candy Man", a genial guy that worked in a candy factory who "just loved children", giving them free candy and inviting them over to his place to have a good time. He was a sadist who would get teenagers (sometimes his prey was younger than that) drunk or high and while they were incapacitated handcuff them spread eagle to a plywood board and then sexually assault and torture them. He had two teenage accomplices, David Brooks and Elmer Wayne Henley, who would procure young boys for him, inviting them to parties and get togethers at Corll's place. Although Corll helped Brooks get an old Corvette, he generally didn't pay Brooks or Henley anything in return for their help in procuring victims. He did keep them supplied with booze and drugs, and drove them around and was in general a "buddy" to the loser teens. Corll got away with his crimes for a long time; it only stopped when he had an altercation with Henley, who killed him. Later people wondered why Corll was not a person of interest in all the disappearances of boys in the neighborhood, this grown man who always hung out with a couple of teenagers , this adult male with his unusual fondness for children. and teenagers. It seems that he and Brooks and Henley were such losers, such nonentities, that nobody really gave them much of a thought. As Jack Olson, a true crime writer, said of them "Zero plus zero plus zero equals zero." They were such nobodies that that attracted no notice, which really helped them continue their killing spree. Thankfully, Corll is dead and Brooks and Henley are rotting away in prison.

[quote]Most of them are just unattractive, nondescript losers.

I don't buy that. Most serial killers I can think of successfully present a middle class facade (eg, Gacy, the BTK), others live lives of ordinary criminals (eg, Ramirez). I can't think of a single one who fits the image of the harmless, shy loser. I think that stereotype developed because people conflate serial killers with mass shooters, who indeed tend to be geeky and have a history with social ostracism.

"Most serial killers I can think of successfully present a middle class facade (eg, Gacy, the BTK), others live lives of ordinary criminals (eg, Ramirez). I can't think of a single one who fits the image of the harmless, shy loser. "

You must not know a lot about serial killers. Most of them aren't exactly middle class; although a few hold regular jobs. And while many of them are loser creeps, they're not exactly considered "shy" or "harmless." Most of them come across as very odd and off-putting.

[quote]neck mole

Looks like DL was right about neck moles all along.

[quote]You must not know a lot about serial killers. Most of them aren't exactly middle class; although a few hold regular jobs. And while many of them are loser creeps, they're not exactly considered "shy" or "harmless." Most of them come across as very odd and off-putting.

What I said is that they're either middle class or ordinary criminals. I think this is a fair description.

[quote]Most of them come across as very odd and off-putting.

Wrong. Many, perhaps, serial killers can project a façade of normalcy, sometimes even charm (charm is a common characteristic among psychopaths - it's the first item on the Psyhopathy Checklist). What is more, serial killers tend to manipulate their victims in order to get them in a position of vulnerability - luring them to a secluded space, for example - and they wouldn't be able to pull that off if they were the huge creeps you describe.

Exactly, [R230].

"What is more, serial killers tend to manipulate their victims in order to get them in a position of vulnerability."

Not really. A lot of serial killers take their victims by force. They see an opportunity and they take it. Not all serial killers are "charming" manipulators, like Bundy.

Years ago when I first came to the US, my aunt by marriage had some of her relatives from Europe come and stay with her for a couple of weeks. They were both teachers and had their 10 and six year old boys with them. The youngest was kind of rambunctious, and the oldest was a bit ubiquitous but for the most part seemed normal.

That kid at 21 (the oldest) took a girl out on a date, got her to go to an empty house with him and proceeded to beat and rape her to death. He went home and lied about it until the evidence couldn't support him any more.

He got "life", which in actualit was about fifteen years and then raped a junkie a year or so after he got out. It was her word against his though, "because junkie" so he skated.

I truly believe he's a psychopath, but there was really no obvious sign. My cousins have said he had a temper, but they did too.

I think that this is just a darkness within them that they manage to hide. A lot of us have had shitty stuff happen to us (my cousin's mom died for instance) but we don't become killers.

Some people are just plain fucking evil.

[quote]Not really. A lot of serial killers take their victims by force

Nah. Gacy, Bundy, even the loner Dahmer and the filthy Pickton managed to lure their victims to their deaths because they were good liars and could charm and/or tell convincing stories. It's true that some serial killers, like the BTK, merely surprised their victims, for example by breaking in their homes, but they're in the minority. (And, though he did have a scary mug, I wouldn't call the BTK a creep either -- he successfully projected a middle class dad image).

Chronic lying -- which is intimately linked to manipulation -- is one of the most common characteristics of sex murderers. Most show that tendency even in childhood, according to FBI research. It's not a surprise that by adulthood they're successful in crafting stories to get other people to do what they want.

Interesting point about that personality trait, [R234]. I had never heard that before (about chronic lying from childhood) from profilers, etc.

BUMP!

"Why is there another movie about Bundy?"

Because filmmakers have no original ideas these days. Why is there another movie about Charles Manson? There have been at least half a dozen. But Quentin Tarantino is doing yet another one. At least with Bundy there haven't been that many.

BUMP!

(Because somebody just posted a Ted Bundy comment on either an Armie Hammer DL thread or a Cavanaugh DL thread and it clearly didn’t belong there...)

Efron *is* creeping me out a little bit here...

Will the filmmakers have “Ted” sing and dance in this version of the story?

He looks punkish here and is dressed like a hipster...

Creepy story about 3 year old Ted by his aunt (who was 15 at the time of this incident).

I’m inclined to say maybe Bundy was “born” a psychopath (in the nature vs. nurture) debate, but this quote by the aunt *also* makes the home environment sound unhealthy/abnormal.

She notes that she scolded young Ted and immediately went downstairs with the knives and told her mother what just happened and the young aunt seemed troubled at the time that she was the *only* one in the whole family who thought this troubling behavior by young Ted was odd...

zac is said to be brilliant in the role

he is damn hot!

R242 = Zac?