Borderline Personality Disorder

... anyone?

I have a friend in her late 40's who is Borderline. She's kind but almost always an emotional mess and often repulsively needy. It's exhausting to spend a substantial amount of time with her, so I engage with her to a certain point and amount of time only, then pretty much hide from her.

If I don't handle it like that, she and her neediness start infiltrating every aspect of my life (and has). By that I mean, her emotions are always at critical levels about everything and she spews her thoughts/feelings/opinions in a discordant deluge. One time, she did this at my place and wouldnt allow me to sleep, actually got in my face as i was trying to sleep, to share whatever had upset her that day. Another time, I had to shut off my phone because she was calling at all hours, for hours on end.

There's always something she's freaking out about. And her reaction is always overboard.

She seems to do better when she medicates although I do not know which one(s) she takes.

I feel sorry for her but can only deal with her in small doses.

I suspect my father has it. Everything is personal. Everything is a fight. He has no sense of proportion. I avoid contact as much as possible.

What are the other signs r3?

My sister in law and former employee have BPD and it is exhausting. They're always on the outs with someone but it fluctuates daily. The neediness with a sense of indignant entitlement is quite off putting. Their reactions are so extreme and they take offense easily when none was intended. The former employee had a huge ego so there were narcissistic tendencies too.

My ex boyfriend. When I first met him he seemed to hold it together for the first few months. I knew he smoked pot but not 6-7 times a day. Then he slipped up and started drinking again after a year of sobriety from alcohol. Then the paranoia started. I couldn’t talk to my male friends or send selfies to them because it was cheating. Then I couldn’t spend Christmas with my family or any other time with them because my loyalties should have been with him.

Then he started feeling suicidal and started hearing voices to kill him self. Then he tried to kill him self by taking all his pills and then fought with the police and EMS. He got sent to jail and then was hospitalized as an inpatient. He then got sent to jail for fighting with the staff.

Flash forward a few months and he becomes broke from being financially reckless and spending money on marijuana. So he turned to inhaling canned air. As in 30 to 40 cans of canned air a day to the point where his fingers and lips were frost bitten along with his stomach and throat.

He’s been in the hospital for the past 40 days.

Most BPDs are women and effeminate gay men. Its crazy chaotic behavior, lack of boundaries, lack of judgement, lack of order and control, needy neurosis, lack of intuition or inhibitions, self loathing, self harm/mutilation, suicide, an attraction to sociopaths, the need for constant drama, pill popping, hypochondria, oversharing, being the perpetual "victim". Being slutty, very often they are sex workers/strippers etc. They have no boundaries and sleep with the most disgusting abusive men. Children of BPD mothers often get abused/raped by the creeps that the BPD cunt drags in.

Almost all female borderlines were sexually abused as children. Some have theorized that BPD is a PTSD like illness that occurs to some females after sexual abuse.

They are exhausting blackholes with their neediness. At first they will love, love , love someone then when that person is resentful and exhausted with dealing with the parasitic blackhole borderline and cuts them off then suddenly they become the devil are now suddenly an evil and abusive monster. They also are financially parasitic and live off the government/their many ex's (child support + alimony) etc.

BPD is basically being a cunt or a bottom's big dilapidated stretched out rectum Just imagine a big black hole or a big sloppy gaping cunt or mussy sucking in emotional energy, other peoples money, asshole's cocks, nasty sociopath's semen, pills, pills and more pills. Imagine all that shit swirling around in a disordered crazy mess. That's a BPD

BPDs are the worst... I was involved with one for a year

With BPDs there is never a calm before the storm. It's always stormy. When there is no drama they manufacture it. They get high off the angst and seek out situations and relationships that give them this. They self medicate to the extreme and are the first to lash out physically. I know two and they are female. It never goes away either it gets worse as they get older. Much worse . Relationships are chaotic. At first its true love, they fall hard and fast then it quickly turns into a nightmare. And they repeat this over and over.

R9, the woman I mentioned at R2 claims that as she approaches and goes through menopause, she will be able to cease taking the medication for her condition. That menopause will 'cure' her.

Is she totally full of shit, like she sounds?

My sister claims that her therapist’s notes say that she has Borderline Personality Disorder, but therapist hasn’t come out and declared it. Is that a diagnosis?

She is very black and white. If you’re not her best friend, you’re her worst enemy. You have to be 1,000% loyal, which means you cannot say ANYTHING objective or nice about someone she doesn’t like. She gives a lot (too much) and if she feels that you’re not reciprocating enough, you’re dead to her.

She has terrible mood swings. One moment, you’re having fun and laughing and then all of a sudden, she’s done. She’ll rip your head off and you’re wondering what happened. I love her, but if she weren’t my sister, I’d have stopped dealing with her decades ago.

She’s impulsive. Has a spending problem. The trunk of her car is full of stuff she’s bought to make herself feel better and she always has piles to return and sometimes gets me to do it because if you return too much they can ban you. She had a shoplifting problem. She binge-drinks.

She’s gorgeous, but aside from two co-dependent LT relationships, she’s always single. There’s no lack of initial interest, but she discards any man who’s not perfect. She’s spitting mad at fat/ugly women who have husbands.

After years of bouncing around jobs, she’s been at one for a while. Every year she makes a mortal enemy. There is ALWAYS someone she’s battling.

The “walking on eggshells” is a perfect way to describe it. With therapy, she’s made some improvements. She’s been on different meds for her issues. Surprisingly, she’s stuck with this therapist, although she has threatened to quit Again, I can’t absolutely confirm that she has been officially diagnosed, but she claimed it. She knows she has a problem and she’s trying.

Interestingly, I think my mother has it, too. There’s not enough room to describe all of her issues. She has no idea how crazy she is. I maintain a distance because from my mother. Lots of guilt.

I talked to a therapist about this after my cousin was diagnosed with it.

Like all people, no one BPD are the same. It manifests in different ways for different people.

The commonalities seemed to be-

Idealization. They will put you on a pedestal or hate your guts.

Being very emotional when entering very close, usually romantic, relationships. If the person they are with is very loving, caring, things can often end up being very good. They need someone who is probably needy for them to a degree. My cousin found that and it is bliss.

They have a hard time gauging others behavior towards them. They take things very personal when it usually isn't about them. I try to tell my cousin most people are assholes and their behavior isn't a reflection on her but it is on them. She has to remind herself not to take things personally.

Other than that, things can vary widely. It depends on their own makeup and coping skills. They can lead very normal, productive lives but need therapy to help develop coping skills.

My first cousin in her 40s has been diagnosed with it by different professionals. I’ve never had a problem with her, but she has been beyond difficult with others in her life. Chaotic relationships, meltdowns, rarely lives on her own, the whole nine. She has one son in his 20s who has undoubtedly suffered the most by her erratic behaviors. I’m sure I’m being overly cautious because I doubt he posts here, but on the off chance he does I’ll leave out details. Nobody wants to relive something someone else says about their mother, no matter how truthful.

Just picture the stereotypical manipulative frau. With frau diagnoses in addition to BPD. She meets all the criteria on the DSM-5 except for maybe the final one.

Has anyone seen the movie Blue Jasmine? I wonder if the main character was supposed to be Borderline.

R14, I never thought about it, but I believe you’re right.

I had a close friend with BPD. I felt bad for her but it got to be too much and when I cut her off things got scary. I know they can seek treatment but I wonder how much it helps. She was the most toxic person I have ever known. Whenever I’m in her neighborhood I get nauseous.

There have always been borderline women, but the percentage among millennial women seems unusually high. I wonder if the current popular type of feminism, one that emphasizes helpless infantilization above accomplishments and perseverance, might be playing a role. The earlier feminist movements certainly had their excesses but at least there was some focus on actual achievement. Alot of young women,particularly the affluent ones, seem to almost pride themselves on their victim status.

In my personal experience, emotional turmoil is not enough to produce borderline personality disorder. What it needs to be combined with is extreme, almost pathological narcissism and significant indulgence from those around them. I have known a couple borderlines and they were both close in personality to r11s description . I think pop culture likes to romanticize these women as molested little Marilyn Monroe types who just want to be loved. The two I knew were both spoiled brats who had never been given any real boundaries. If I even suspect that someone has this defect, I avoid them like the plague.

Some of you may be confusing other disorders with BPD.

The say Princess Di had BPD

[quote]Have you ever known someone with this diagnosis? (From a professional; not from you.)

Do people who have been diagnosed with this disclose it to others? Also, I wonder if people with BPD are inclined to seek help.

The first time I heard about this condition was while watching the Jodi Arias trial. A psychiatrist who diagnosed Arias as such took the stand. I remember her describing immaturity and a tendency to put people on a pedestal. Also, borderlines tend to think in terms of black and white, and see people as either all good or all bad. And, obviously in this case, the consequences of interacting with such people can be risky, even life threatening.

R20 No, you're wrong! Diana was chaste, pure and innocent virgin who was destroyed by the machinations of Charles and Camilla. They MADE her throw herself down steps, manipulate the media, fuck married men,and stalk their wives. She will Always be the people's princess!

I work with someone who has it and she's a complete nightmare. Fortunately I don't have to deal with her closely.

I always think Larry Kramer must have BPD--he manifests many of the symptoms: the irrational and violent rages, the splitting of everyone into loyal friends or (mostly) despised enemies, the demand for 100% loyalty 100% of the time, the constant need for attention.

I'm taking my Borderline landlady to court for refusing to return my deposit, I lasted 3 days in her flat. I've told the court not to give her my new address in case I get acid thrown in my face.

yeah, it sounds like a lot of you are confusing narcissism with BPD. a person can have both. what borderline's tend to have, overall, is depression. which sounds natural in people who are generally full of self-loathing.

I am a borderline female. I am stereotypical in many respects, except I have never self mutilated, which is quite unusual. But I totally do the black and white thinking, even while being totally conscious of it at the time. I do not identify with the moments of psychosis listed by a couple of you. I am sane but irrational. I have a grey cat and my partner jokes that it is amazing that I can perceive the grey cat, since he is not black and white. I have gone thru a million shrinks, all of whom have identified me as a Borderline. I avoid booze, drugs and crazy people like the plague since rationality is so hard to achieve for me. I try most of the time to lead as stable a life as I can, but I am my own boss with constantly new clients and I am glad because if I fuck up the relationships, it doesn't really matter. I come from a bad background with huge mental illness and domestic violence, to which I was subject as a child, along with sexual abuse. I am a cliche. I almost never tell anyone, even very good friends, because it is such a damning thing to admit to and it seems so reductive. I have been with my partner for 25 yrs, but I have often behaved badly. I didn't work for many many yrs and was supported by my partner, but love working now.

OH....borderline lady here....I find it impossible to let go of any emotional unpleasantness with others, even if very minor, and obsess about it for weeks or months. I have a situation like that now. Can anyone please tell me how to let something go, leave something in the past? I have no idea how to do it. I am like a dog with a bone who doesn't know how to let go of the bone.

[quote]Can anyone please tell me how to let something go, leave something in the past?

It sounds like the unpleasantness isn't ongoing, so that's helpful. My advice for letting something go is to stop getting caught up in thinking about it. If you follow a train of thought, you'll start to get caught up in the thinking. When the thoughts come, just ignore them, and let them gently fade away. And they will. You don't have to take all your thoughts so seriously. They're just thoughts. You don't have to let your thinking upset you. (Also, when you're in a low mood, anything you think about will seem more serious than it probably is. Recognize your low moods and protect yourself from serious thinking, or following upsetting trains of thought.)

r21--do people disclose?

for one, as someone mentioned above, do they even know that they have it? it sounds like the poster above has a friend whose therapist won't tell her she has it. it isn't something that most BPD people can have an "aha!" moment about themselves with. it's just how they are and see the world, and is generally not consciously chosen. a lot of posts here on this subject portray the people as vindictive and conscious of their actions at every moment. it's probably more like the BPD person thinks that they ARE operating under logical assumptions about other people. they are irrational about things, and don't realize that they are. they act out of these irrationalities and then wonder why other people don't understand their actions (because their minds work that way, but they can't realize that others work differently). every post that i have seen here has been extremely negative, and almost hysterically so about borderlines. would you disclose it, if your therapist managed to tell you?

it is a damning diagnosis. most therapists won't even see patients who are classified thus (too much trouble for the cost--headache patients who waste your time that you could be earning with someone who will progress faster. therapists actually advise each other to weed out BPD patients in order to be profitable). some therapists seem hesitant to label a person this way. some therapists don't see the need to label it at all (i heard one describe it as "just one of the more complicated forms of PTSD"). given all of this, would YOU disclose it?

"Borderlines are 0.2 to 1.8 percent of the general population; 8-11 percent of outpatient therapy clients; 14-20 percent of hospitalized clients; and a whopping 60-80 percent of forensic populations"

R14, there are many character analysis of Blue Jasmine online and the consensus is that she has narcissistic personality disorder but the kind of broken narcissism that comes from her destitute position in the society after having been on top of it. Another glaring case of NPD is DJT and I mean in a clinical way, nothing to do with partisan line. Trump is textbook NPD in every aspect of his personality.

Therapist usually don't take more than one borderline patient, they are just too exhausting. And a little tip: the two ways you know you’re dealing with a borderline is that you feel bad about yourself after contact with them, and you fight with other people about them.

My ex's best friend had bpd and it was a nightmare.

While I was with my ex the friend and I became buddies enough that we would hang out regularly but it was always slightly uncomfortable for me. He was so attached to my ex it was like having another person in the relationship, and it got to the point where I felt like I was becoming some jealous paranoid asshole. I decided the healthiest thing to do was to just break it off and move on. My ex handled it like any normal person would but his friend went fucking crazy. He would show up at my apartment to scream at me (only leaving when my neighbors got involved), floods of texts, calls, and facebook messages with rants about how much he hated me and how I was a traitor. I'd block him and he'd make new accounts to send me more shit. Finally he seemed to give up and I thought he had moved on. Then months later when I got into a new relationship (with my current partner) the bpd friend was still stalking my social media and the crazy messages started all over again. He found my partner's facebook and sent shit at him and his family and friends. It was a fucking mess.

Do people with BPD tend to engulf others?

I work with a woman like this: if you don't have strong boundaries, she will encroach on your space more and more. She either loves you or hates you and had alienated a number of people over the years. I've heard her described as "exhausting."

I read a theory once that some women on the spectrum are misdiagnosed with BPD: they don't understand social cues, ie, how much is "too much" in a work relationship.

First guy i fell in love with. At first charming and caring. I hadn‘t come out yet ( i was 17 at the time) and he,although straight and fucking around with girls, developed an unhealthy obsession with my sexuality.Threw tantrums because i wouldn‘t shower with him. Went bingedrinking because i wouldn‘t make out with him in school. Threatened to kill himself over minor things. I didn‘t respond to his advances ,so one night when we were gettting hammered he raped me. As a bonding experience. And to help me come out. His words. When i cut off any contact after that,he started stalking my parents and me.Fortunately he was hospitalized with drug-induced psychosis for quite some time shortly after.

again with this???

R36 = Alex Forrest

Damn it R7, you just described my boss to a T. Pill popping, loves, loves you at first, high drama all the time every hour of the day, living off your Ex husbands millions, sucks the energy right out of you, sexual addiction problem sleeping with some of the worst men. Spends most of her day trolling several dating apps at the same time looking for men. Kids are fucked up, not abused but all have real problems like drinking and plastic surgery addiction. And of course she told me she has attempted suicide in the past more than once!

Oddly, enough she is quite intelligent, college educated, but stuck in the past by 20 years. She knows almost nothing about current events. She's heard about Trump but that's about the extent of new things. She cant stand him so at least we have that in common. She only watches old black and white movies. Never watches or reads the news.

Suicide attempts are a big part of BPD, r38. Can't remember where I read it, but apparently 50% of patients with BPD attempt suicide at least once.

Nothing seems to work with these people. My boss described above has been on more than a dozen types of drugs, 30 years of therapy and according to what she told me she has even gone through electro shock therapy for depression. Didnt work apparently. FYI it dose not get better as they age, she is way over the change of life. She knows she has these problems, but pretty hard to change your personality for anyone.

You'll often find the idea amongst borderlines that they just need somebody who can "handle" them. A borderline trying to find somebody who can handle their shit without going crazy is like a serial killer trying to find somebody who can handle getting stabbed with a knife without dying. Being emotionally abused or stabbed with a knife objectively hurts all human beings. The only people in the world who can "handle" it are either masochistic or suicidal. The only option you have is to disengage.

Trust me when I say this: if you're involved with a borderline in any way, you're the only one who will suffer in the end. Your brain is rewiring itself due to the trauma and will never be the same again, even if you aren't aware of it right now. They often have countless other friends and orbiters to suck the life out of. Don't be afraid to walk away.

I was involved with a borderline once, he was receiving treatment and was actually doing very well and was fairly stable in life. However, he just could not stop playing mind games. Eventually I wised up and walked away without looking back. He was a decent sort, though.

Such good advice r41. My bpd "boyfriend" was perfectly fine minutes after a fight in which he cried and threatened to kill himself because he ran into the arms of one of his dozen other side pieces/bfs/GFS (and he has a stable of them, unbeknownst to me). Don't sacrifice your health for these people. I'm still angry about the effect he he had on my life, 4 years later. The sex wasn't worth it.

Yes, a family member. And yes to ALL of the above. She is text book. Needy, exhausting, self absorbed, moody and an emotional vampire. A perpetual victim. At times she can be the life of the party and other times socially paranoid and phobic. No real interest in others except when interaction relates directly to her. Very smart. Voracious information junky. Always seeking answers to why she's so troubled. Encyclopedic knowledge of many and varied topics. Could probably win at Jeopardy.

Something I've noticed over the years is that she has a photographic memory for every negative thing (or perceived negative thing) anyone has ever said or done to her. She's nearly 60 y/o and remembers minor slights from when she was in grade school. She ruminates and obsesses over things most people get over or forget entirely. Then she gets so angry she explodes. She thinks she's a mind reader too. She often makes up entire stories in her head about others and their motivations based on nothing but her own warped perceptions. But the really odd thing is she has 100% amnesia for all of her own negative behavior. No recall at all. This leaves her bewildered as to why she's such a magnet for abuse by others. She sees herself as a helpless, innocent victim and never acknowledges her own part in things. Also conveniently 'forgets' and minimizes self harm.

My good friend’s daughter must have this. They really tried to raise her well, but the minute she turned 13, she turned into a devil. She has a number of the signs, especially cutting. Has been in and out of group homes. Chronic liar. Just had a baby and he is raising him. They are night quite sure where she is now, she lies so much, but either sex work or drug selling is possible. I really feel for him because she has caused them so much pain and heartache, and now they have to raise another baby.

R41, excellent comment.

And my problem is that the undiagnosed BPD is my mother. You can leave an abusive lover or spouse, but there’s something wrong with you if you cut yourself off from your elderly and sick mother. Very mixed emotions.

It keeps being mentioned that BPDs tend to be suicidal or self-harming, but I haven’t seen that from mine. Although, I guess being a non-complaint diabetic might count as self-harm.

r41 a psychologist once told me that borderlines tend to attract narcissists.

BPD's make the worst mothers. They train their troubled sons to be psychopaths, without even trying to.

[quote]a psychologist once told me that borderlines tend to attract narcissists

Narcissists typically prey on the weakests, because the weaker they are, the stronger they look in comparison, so those with BPD are ideal targets for their predatory behaviors. Who can you more easily manipulate, and gaslight than someone with BPD? No one.

The BPD mixture of grandiosity, alternating with extreme self loathing, accompanied by a ceaseless need for validation, praise, and absurd demonstrations of "loyalty", is truly exhausting.

R44 Yes! Their amnesia regarding their own horrible behavior (and complete unwillingness to accept responsibility or consequences) is really frustrating. It's really difficult in a workplace situation.

Is lack of self-insight common in BPD?

A woman I suspected of having BPD would bitch about drug addicts as she did huge lines of blow.

R4 Do the test.

So, are most stalkers/harassers BPD, do you think?

You know, the whole 'not being able to let it go' or accepting that things are over?

OP here, r55. The guy I knew online had felony stalking charges pending against him. The way I understood it, he became obsessed with a guy he knew through work, then set up an email account impersonating that guy, and sent himself threatening emails from the account.

[quote]Is lack of self-insight common in BPD? A woman I suspected of having BPD would bitch about drug addicts as she did huge lines of blow.

Nah, perfectly normal. Everyone goes on rants like that after a couple line of coke.

I suspected that a woman I know has this but maybe she's just a raging asshole. She can turn on a dime, is impulsive, irrational, self-centered, chaotic, disorganized, and has more things go wrong for her than anyone I know.

I don't know anyone with a professional diagnosis - I was involved with a woman who was BPD. Of course, her life was such a mess she couldn't see a therapist to make the diagnosis. Our relationship ended quite abruptly, but the craziness continued. I had to contact the police and harassment charges were filed.

I work with a woman like this. She's tenured and can't be fired, but she makes life hell for everyone. When I was her confidante she made my life such hell with her ranting and raving about other people I had to see a therapist, who told me she was "a splitter"and that I could never win with her--I had to get her out of my life as much as possible. I've learned to draw very strong boundaries between us.

I’m wondering if some of these descriptions are undiagnosed diabetes. One of the symptoms of out of control blood sugar is extreme irritability, picking fights with everyone everywhere at the drop of a hat, and even irrationality. I’m pretty sure a friend has it, her diet is complete garbage, she’s obese and she never exercises.

Remember that scene in Steel Magnolias where Shelby just starts fighting and acting like an asshole and they have to force orange juice down her throat? I’ve seen that in real life, only in real life you cannot force anyone to do anything unless you want to wind up in jail.

Yes, some of the descriptions here do not sound like BPD. Could be a mixture of things but even if some of these are BPD they are extreme cases. Not all BPD people are this extreme.

I am the one posting about my cousin.

I do think they are the ones who have the higher potential to stalk, but that isn't exclusive to BPD's. They also do lash out when they feel others have done them wrong. They seek revenge. In my cousin's case, I think most of the time she has been done wrong, as many of us have, but she seeks revenge whereas we wouldn't.

R26 I've worked with my cousin over letting things go. It is very difficult for her and she holds onto both positive and negative things that have happened in the past. One thing her therapist said was to give yourself a set time in the day to get those feelings out, like 30 minutes. Then once that is up, move on. This has helped my cousin greatly.

If you think everyone around you has BPD, it's probably actually you who has it.

the woman I know that I posted about at r58 recently flipped the fuck out. We were at a social gathering, and two people disagreed with her about two different things. In a conversational, not confrontational way, ie., oh no, I don't think I would enjoy something like that at all, but glad you do; and I've met him and think he's kind of a pompous jerk, I am surprised you think so highly of him. It was like something switched inside of her and she was like Reagan in the Exorcist, ranting about perceived wrongs everyone had committed against her over the past 20 years. I left before the situation was resolved and have kept my distance but there was talk about an involuntary psych hold during the incident.

I knew someone who may have had BPD and she would see shrinks who could never handle her. She was smarter than any shrink. She'd pour out this stuff to me, and what could I say, except that I always felt sorry for her shrinks.

R64 Yeah, that's not BPD she is just a fucking nutjob.

R44 you have exactly described a friend of mine. I have spent thousands of hours listening to her take on her life—-what does that say about me?? She is an entertaining storyteller and has a cutting, humorous insight into some other people. But for a long time I believed I was one of her few ‘true’ friends and bit by bit I came to realize she runs the same lines on everyone else. She really is brilliant though.

Do borderlines have a need to control everything? Because that’s my mother.

R68 Sometimes but not always. If they're controlling, it is to protect their feelings not to hurt others.

The story about the BPD boss who watches black and white films to live in the past is hilarious.

I am the borderline lady. There is so much stigma attached to it I have never told my GP or any of my shrinks, but each finds out soon enough. There is something horrible about being diagnosed and having everyone say "there she goes again" all the time. It is extremely frustrating being a cliche and not being able to break out of that.

I never knew my effect on others until I read what you wrote above about borderlines being exhausting, and I remember a few people saying that about me and it explains a lot of people's behaviour. Instinctively, I hate boundaries and seek to subvert and undermine them constantly to get closer to be people. My most hated word is "inappropriate"

R70 the boundary thing doesn't sound like BPD. Not everything you do can be traced to BPD. From what I was told, most BPD's like boundaries. They feel safe in boundaries. The people who drive them the most insane are the ones whom they can't figure out where they stand in the relationship. Most BPD's accept if someone says they are only work friends. But if that person never told them that, and the BPD person thinks they are better friends, they may obsess over why that person never asks them to hang out after work.

[quote] If you think everyone around you has BPD, it's probably actually you who has it.

An interesting idea, Winona, but I see of no scientific studies backing that up. In fact I've never heard anyone besides you claim that. It sounds exactly like what someone with BPD would claim.

The 9 symptoms of BPD:

* Fear of abandonment. People with BPD are often terrified of being abandoned or left alone.

* Unstable relationships.

* Unclear or unstable self-image.

* Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors.

* Self-harm.

* Extreme emotional swings.

* Chronic feelings of emptiness.

* Explosive anger.

It is true that in some of these cases, narcissistic personality disorder might be a more reasonable diagnosis, although there is quite a bit overlap sometimes between them (narcissists are often prone to rage as borderlines are, and also can be quite manipulative and unempathetic). And both boderlines and narcissists can be prone to "splitting," or black-and-white thinking in relationships (i.e. either you're my idealized friend or my sworn enemy, sometimes both within a matter of minutes)

For practical purposes it often doesn't matter what the diagnosis is to outsiders because they're not the ones treating the problems. I do know I've learned from therapists to run if I meet someone who is a "splitter" or prone to inappropriate rage (emphasis on the word "inappropriate" here) no matter what the final diagnosis is. You cannot win with someone who is like that, ever.

R74 Yes, run from someone who has rage issues. Always always always. There is no changing them.

Someone who is a splitter and it is extreme, also, run from them.

My BPD cousin has been able to have several close, long term friends. She seems to have a mild case of BPD.

[quote]I do know I've learned from therapists to run if I meet someone who is a "splitter" or prone to inappropriate rage (emphasis on the word "inappropriate" here) no matter what the final diagnosis is. You cannot win with someone who is like that, ever.

Yes, after becoming involved with more than one (parent was one) whenever I meet someone that's the red flag I always look out for.

I mean more than one person with a personality disorder, not necessarily BPD.

I met 2 online, one of which I posted about on Datalounge. Both of them chores. One was a gay guy who constantly argued over the dumbest shit. The other was a guy who has a lot of self-esteem/depression issues.

I met 2 in college both white females. One was a druggie, the other one was rather boring. She wore a Hello kitty hat a lot.

The one we learned about after his death was a former coach. He developed dementia and eventually starved himself to death. He oficially died of a heart issue, but it was because he wasn't eating. Before that happened he used to beat the hell out of his wife (also a teacher) for years. She has GAD/PTSD/Depression as a result of living with him. She was also never able to carry a child to term b/c of the stress of living with that man.

Interestingly enough, her sister married a Narcissist who was also a pedophile. He died of syphilis . They liked to say he died of pneumonia but everyone knows it was really syphilis. He was hot up until his 50's and apparently had a horse dick.

You're not alone [R43] I have the same issue. It's been almost 4 years and I still find myself trying to make sense of my ex-BPDs insanity. At least we know what to look out for now so we don't ever get involved with someone like that again. Trust your gut

Aren’t we all a little mentally ill? I mean really.

I know one who left our organization then proceeded to try to destroy it through lies. It was amazing how many people believed her lies. It’s an incredible nonprofit and she did us tremendous harm. She will burn in hell.

Pretty sure I have BPD, although I don't do anything self-harming. I just have super-sensitive feelings, and when criticized or rejected it's actually physically painful. I can get extremely angry, extremely fast. I wish I wasn't that way and admire people who are able to stay cool as a cucumber at all times. I actually don't mind being alone, because when I'm around other people I become very self-conscious and hyper-sensitive about what others are thinking about me (exhausting). I hold grudges like a motherfucker too. Isn't that a symptom of BPD? If someone wrongs me, I never forget it and always secretly hold it against them. I'm definitely one for revenge, too. One of my favorite movies is She-Devil. Even as a little kid, I admired Ruth's determination and ability to get the last laugh and burn down the lives of her wrongdoers.

As far as relationships go, if I care about a guy I'll actually keep him at a distance and not let him get involved with me because I KNOW I'll ultimately hurt him, and I don't want that. I know I'm a fucking mess. I don't know what caused me to be this way, but I wish I'd been born with a more pleasant personality and/or less intense emotions. Ho hum, maybe in my next lifetime!

R82 There are coping skills you need. Once you figure out how to channel some of your feelings, you will be able to have a relationship.

R83 expand on some positive coping mechanisms.

R82, I would see a psychotherapist if you can afford to do so. The reason people with BPD are seen as untreatable is more because they tend not to accept treatment or to manipulate their therapists, but you sound very self-aware and open to change. DBT is one of the treatments.

Horse dick pedophile = horrific.

R75, I run from people who rage, as well. Nothing attractive about people who lash out in anger.

R41! HOLY FUCK!THE TRUTH. SOMEONE START A THREAD!

YOUR BRAIN WILL REWIRE DO TO TRAUMA!!!

People don't realize what staying in bad relationships actually does to you.

TRAUMATIZING REWIRES YOUR BRAIN DAMAGING YOU AND YOUR FUTURE CHANCES!

SPREAD THE WORD!

R41, most brilliant post ever in DL history.

Mom has NPD, R47

R84 I'm no therapist first. I would go to one, don't divulge you have BPD just give them some of the most problematic things you deal with and ask for coping skills.

Having said that, my cousin did several things that helped. She firstly got on anxiety meds (klonopin) which greatly helped her control some of her impulses and emotions. She relied on a trusted person (myself and her bf) to tell her when she is being irrational. She knows to tell people to leave her alone when she is feeling really irritate which isn't as often thanks to meds. She allows herself to have time to feel anger and that the whole world is against her for a certain time a day then moves on. She is also very aware of her idealization of others so she works very hard to prevent it.

Hope that helps!

R88, that’s why people should be strongly encouraged and helped to leave abusive situations.

People are told to stick it out in situations where there’s an abusive coworker, or stay in abusive marriages for the sake of the kids or for financial reasons. Meanwhile, your brain is re-wiring until you have no self esteem or coping skills left.

I think a lot of mental illness is caused by people in abusive situations not being thrown a lifeline and seeing no way out. They just drown in stress.

R91 YES! I have had to leave jobs due to abusive bosses. It is the worst and has caused me some PTSD. I have trust issues and anxiety issues with some of my coworkers because of this. All of the abuse was because of my sexuality.

The brain re-wiring. Hating myself for not getting over the trauma of a psychopathic covert narcissistic passive-aggressive. Three years since I gave him the boot. Cannot get myself back to the orderly, clean home I kept like before. Can't get back to the self care like before.

Can't snap out of it. Does anyone have tactics on how to re-wire my brain again to a healthy state?

Please. Help.

R92, I should have left a job with two extremely abusive coworkers but I didn’t for financial reasons. I ended up getting severe ulcerative colitis.

Eventually I lost the job anyway due to illness related absences and the two abusers continually working on the boss to get rid of me. One wanted my job, which was a promotion for her, and the other was her friend. She did get my job.

The whole time my parents were telling me to stick it out and only crybabies leave a job when they’re being abused.

When I finally left there I was severely ill and it took years to recover. Not worth it.

R93 See a therapist. None of us here can know exactly what you went through, how you were before and what changed. I wish you the best!

R94 I was lucky in that I could move jobs easily. Don't beat yourself up for it. You did what you thought you needed to do and without the support you needed.

Worst thing about the re-wiring from trauma is that it stamps itself in your eyes. Look at before an after photos.

My warm, loving twinkle that exuded from eyes replaced to deer in headlights.

R93, completely cut out sugar and eat a high fiber diet (fruits and vegetables, not bread), exercise daily and go outside in the sun every day. Walk around, drive around, anything. Just go outside.

I was having some pretty unshakable depression and general hopelessness and changing my diet not only helped me lose weight, but cleared up my skin, gums were a lot healthier and generally slowly started feeling much healthier and better. I had the same problem of being unable to clean or do anything. I became much more full of energy.

I'm gonna start a thread on this Thanks again to R81, wherever you are.

I'm R96 and I also don't have the same spark I had before being abused by homophobes. I am great at what I do and easily find other jobs. My reputation is stellar. But it left its mark on me. Seeing hate directed at me relentlessly and sometimes very covertly is traumatizing and I'm working through it. I stay grounded through friends and family. I always sought out support at work and found it. That helped. I did get one boss fired but after I had left so that was very satisfying. He knew I got him fired, too.

How do I word the new thread about trauma re-wiring the brain? Gonna put in R81's comment, of course.

I did find being successful in selling my craft online helped rewire my brain. Stuffing boxes with orders got the ball rolling but I'm afraid of new relationships until I can solder the faulty wiring but that part just isn't coming.

R93, disconnecting from a narcissist, especially a covert narcissist, and eliminating them from your thoughts and your life, is an enormous challenge. You're definitely not alone in that. They can destroy your health and your sense of well-being. Therapy would be helpful, but there's some good reading on the internet if you can separate the wheat from the chaff.

R100, I've been traumatized by coworkers as well. I've always been one of those people who have it all. The downside is being a target of envy. Demoralizing and traumatizing.

One thing about those traumatizing BPDs is that they about ways Ave it out for one person from every group in their lives. Work, family and friends.

You know your time is coming eventually. Damaging like passive aggressives.

103 thanks. Been to all of the narcissist sites, forums Psychopath Free. They validated me but can't help with the rewiring.

Know what, R103? That is one of the best, helpful links I've ever seen. Thank you to R103 and R81. Bookmarked.

I think I have borderline personality disorder. I think some people are just born with flawed personalities. My dad abandoned us when I was 3 and my brother was 2 months old. That didn't really help things. My mother tried to instill good values in us and give us (my brother and I) a normal childhood, but we were different. I don't think there was anything that my mother did that really caused me to be this way

Don't self diagnose based on the internet. Everyone is messed up in one way or the other. Everyone. And not in small ways, either. Humans are deeply flawed.

I do wonder how much one’s environment influences one’s development of BPD. Researchers ceetainly think their is a genetic component, but I think my famiily member with BPD may not have even had it (or not to this degree at least) had her home life been more stable. Her mother is controlling and inflexible (seriously, in an obsessive compulsive personality disorder way—not to be confused with obsessive compusive disorder), her father was a sexual predator (I really hope not with her, but I don’t know), and a sibling has classic autism (fairly high functioning in adulthood), in and out of psych hospitals for homicidal ideation and psychosis. It was madness in that house.

When considering the upbringing of some with BPD, it is hard to blame them, although they undoubtedly can be very difficult at times and are often not the best at sticking with therapy unfortunately. Someone in the upthread asked if they tend to seek help. It depends. They often search for help, wanting to be “taken care of” and the like, but actually sticking with it and putting in the work to modify their maladaptive behaviors is hit and miss. They often duck out when it gets too real.

Is Bethanny Frankel a borderline? If not, what is she?

I love the net for info, but I still often like my books. It’s a few editions back, but here’s some of what Merck says about borderlines and what often happens with seeking help:

People with borderline personality disorder are commonly seem by primary care doctors; they tend to visit the doctor frequently with repeated crises or vague complaints but often don’t comply with treatment recommendations. Borderline personality disorder is also the most common personality disorder treated by psychiatrists because people with the disorder relentlessly seek someone to care for them.

I saw a therapist years ago who said the men where usually diagnosed with Narcissistic personality disorder while female's received the BPD diagnosis. But that they overlapped essentially were the same thing. I don't know myself, I am just sharing what she said to me.

I’ve heard that too R112. Maybe not being basically the same condition, but that actually makes sense. The overlap is strong, and I’ve definitely heard and read psychologists say how the differences between the sexes with how they tend to deal with relationship issues, work stress, insecurities, etc. cause men to be more likely to develop NPD, while BPD is seen more in women.

Then there are those who genuinely have both. Comorbidity of cluster B personality disorders is quite a beast.

Are BPDs smarter than average? I wrote about my boss up thread and the thing was while she was trapped in her own world of drama, she knew a lot about history, and other things, social issues, just not current things like politics or local things like noticing the city was on fire. Tons of books on Jewelry. A multi-millionaire from a former marriage. Complexity OCD about it. she had 4 full length floor to ceiling bookcases full of that one subject.

[quote] Are BPDs smarter than average?

No.

Next question.

I love this thread. Thank you to all that so graciously shared a piece of their world. 😘

Speak for yourself R108. Any issues I've had have been from experiencing trauma from sick people. Has never been my own hand. I'm just not sick. Don't have BPD, NPD or any personality disorder. No bipolar. I've experienced depression over grief. I've experienced PTSD from discovering a murder/suicide, suicide and murder by knifing in the Diamond District. It really screwed with my head but I don't see people in terms of black and white, don't need to be center of attention, etc. Personality disorders are rigid behaviors and life long. Stable Mable here.

I survived a narcissistic mother only to now have a borderline daughter. Their mental illnesses do kill other people. Death by a thousand cuts.

R118 was there anything in her life that you think could have caused her condition or is it neurological?

(R119) As for my mother? She was the baby of the family and just spoiled rotten. She still behaves like a child and even though she's 83, I'm still raising her ass. As for my daughter? Her piece of shit "sperm donor" father pretty much abandoned her and my other children over 20 years ago. Therefore, she does have a firm foundation regarding abandonment issues. Then add some Cherokee genes and some alcohol on top of that when she self medicates? and there ya go. She's such a glorious girl when she's herself. But when she's not? She morphs into an animal. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. (And thank you for asking. I don't know who to talk to about these things, so I just keep it to myself.)

I love how the time stamp on this thread says it was started and received its first replies “Last Thursday”, implying 8-9 days ago, when really it was just YESTERDAY. 36-48 hours ago.

In what universe is “last Thursday” understood to mean “a day or two ago”?

Am I the only one who thinks this is something that should be corrected?

There's an expert from way back - Otto Kernberg. He taught at Columbia and wrote a textbook I have - Borderline Conditions and Malignant Narcissism.

Anyway, he says both conditions have a "borderline" personality, which meant on the border between psychotic (out of touch with reality) and neurotic (a step up, but plagued with anxiety) - there's some sort of spectrum of development from infantile egotism to mature empathy/responsibility.

Anyhow, an NPD is a BPD who has added defense mechanisms (a rigid belief in oneself as superior, refusal to feel guilt, refusal to ever be introspective so they just move on to another target/situation when caught out). Neither one has a stable sense of self, neither is really dealing with reality full-on (but they don't think they're Napoleon a la psychosis), both are spoiled children/brats. There's more hope for BPDs to mellow or grow out of it because they don't have those rigid defenses.

And about the only difference between NPD and psychopath is that NPD's care what other people think about them and crave adulation (or even fear), and there's (usually) less sadism. Psychopaths are always narcissists -- but the reverse isn't true. It's all one long spectrum and none of them are evolved enough as humans to have much, if any, empathy for other people. Hell, they don't even see other people as really people, as good as they themselves are, if that makes any sense. The way a baby who's throwing a tantrum because he's hungry doesn't really think of his mum as a human, just a "tool" to get his needs met - and if she doesn't, she's worthless. The last thing the baby would do is wonder if she might be having a bad day or whatever - just zero empathy. NPD, BPD, psychopaths, they stay right there, at that emotional level.

If you have to deal with one, try to get away. That is all.

R120 That must be tough to deal with. Personality disorders are very difficult to treat. In my experience people with chronic mental illness tend to do best with intensely structured (though not overly stressful ) schedules. Also having creative outlets or any type of hobby helps. But it can still feel like an uphill battle dealing with them .

Relate to last replies.

Oh last Thursday means the last Thursday which was yesterday. Dumb. Literally last Thursday. Got it?

R122 and we shall never forget it!

R120 you probably already know but just in case: look up "Gray Rock" or "Medium Chill" which are good techniques if you absolutely have to engage with BPD/NPD.

Thanks R126, here is a pretty good description of Medium Chill - found it very helpful.

That's a really good synopsis of Medium Chill, R127. Thanks for that. I cope with my NPD mother by reading all the suggestions I can find on both methods (really two names for the same thing) over and over... I have to wait it out (she's 89). I tried no contact but as an only child, I just didn't feel it was responsible to completely scram - though I'd never blame anyone who did when coping with this mess.

It really does go back to: you can't change anyone but yourself. Even the best experts in the psych business say don't have more than one or two of these patients - they'll drive you crazy. And they seldom have any more success with them than a lay person. They just suck. (see DJT - what's that new book about him? - "Everything Trump Touches Dies" - sorry to bring politics into this but we have a textbook example of extreme NPD bordering on psychopathy on our damned news every night, threatening the existence of our country - but then, NPDs tend to manage to get into power, in business/politics, heaven help us)

I was so relieved when my NPD mom died. After wake and burial I haven't done one more damned thing for her. Didn't update tombstone. Just left it as is. I'm shot.

Hope you can heal now - these people can deplete your life force/make you sick. I think it's the constantly high cortisol levels from all the stress they cause. And you just about have to live it to understand - nobody else does, esp when it's your mother. I dodge so many judgmental people. Fuck 'em.

[quote]Therapist usually don't take more than one borderline patient, they are just too exhausting.

How would a borderline patient be exhausting to a therapist, specifically?

This thread is gold. Thank you, all.

R122, excellent comment. My mother is like a hungry baby who never gets enough food. She had a hostage - her partner of 25 years - who she stealthily and methodically alienated from his lovely family. She henpecked him into submissive learned helplessness. He was recently put into a nursing home and she asked him if he wanted to come home and he said no, he liked it there. They are nice to him there. The man prefers to live in a VA nursing home. That says it all. I wonder where her supply will come from now.

Sometimes I question myself (she’s a gaslighter) if I’m imagining how bad she is. Then I look at her lifetime of jettisoned relationships and tell myself “Look at what she did to Hank.” I left home at 17. I keep her at a safe distance. I keep her away from my husband and children. I do this to protect myself and my kids.

I do believe she doesn’t deliberately destroy the people in her intimate orbit, but she just cannot help herself. She’s like the drowning person who takes their rescuer down with them.

Like r117, I think of myself as Stable Mabel. But there’s damage, lots of it.

R131 - BPDs and NPDs play games with people. They idolize and over-identify in one phase. Then they pout and complain and blame you in the next (devaluation.) They want to get their claws into people, so they'll call and call and say they're suicidal and make the nurse/receptionist go get the therapist for the "emergency" but that's just to get attention - and the therapist will be blamed to higher authorities for made-up shit (claiming the therapist made a romantic pass that never happened, for example). Sheesh, if I could think of all their machinations I'd have to be one.

Everyone who gets in their crosshairs (and it's most people who get involved in ANY way with one - whether it's psychiatrist's client, relationship partner, employee or employer, etc.) will be toyed with, like a cat with a mouse. Lies will be told, accusations will fly, possibly lawsuits, your name will be used in fraudulent situations (my mother put my name on her business and the IRS got after me), etc ad infinitum. They're users. And as a therapist, you could of course be held liable if a supposedly suicidal patient was ignored when they desperately called you, so you've got a mess on your hands.

I saw one book with a chapter on this and it said always have a third party in the room (or record them) because they will inevitably say you did unethical things that you didn't do. I hate to bring this up again, but think Trump. Do whatever you have to do to get attention, stir up chaos, get a reaction out of someone. One key trait of BPD/NPD and psychopaths is they have an emptiness inside and a desperate kind of boredom that drives them to do crazy shit -- at its worst manifestation: the serial killer. The thrill wears off and they have to keep doing it again and again to get enough excitement. Of course, the vast majority of these emotional vampires are not that bad - but they have that kind of insatiable need to live in chaotic excitement (and exact the toll of pain from others).

Most are at least mildly sadistic so they're secretly getting a HUGE thrill out of every little aggravation (or big one) that they cause other people -- even their own family members -- even their own children! It can't be said enough -- the only real fix is to get out and stay out. Or meticulously use medium chill (until you can get out).

Oh and they hate and envy everyone. A therapist is an obvious object of hate because it's someone who'll be acting like they know more than the NPD/BPD and will be telling them what to do. That's a red flag to an NPD bull.

They're also jealous of people who are "good." They refuse to consciously admit that anyone else is a better person than they are -- but somewhere inside, they kinda know a lot of things they won't admit (like somewhere inside Trump knows that there are smarter people than he is, no matter how many times he swears he's a 'stable genius' -- he wouldn't be fixated on telling people how smart he was if he really believed it. Well, he believes it, but if he really KNEW it deep down. He doesn't know anything deep down because he doesn't have a "deep down" except for a tantrummy unfulfilled infant - that's what they all are at the core. Talk about arrested development - it happened to them in the crib!)

Anyway, their thinking would be something like, how dare you think you're so nice and generous -- (ergo you think you're better than me). I'll get you back for that, just you wait!!!

There's NO one that escapes their jealousy, their wrath. Some people say they pick the child that kowtows the most to them to HATE the most (they hate feeling beholden to anyone - they hate the 'goodness' - etc.) So if you think you'll get by by giving in to them on everything, think again (amirite Michael Cohen). You'll be left out of the will -- and/or mistreated the most. It's probably best to bully back, if you're stuck in a jail or something with them -- they kinda understand power, not that they won't get revenge for that too, sooner or later.

They're rattlesnakes. They will bite you. Eventually. It's just a matter of time.

[quote]And as a therapist, you could of course be held liable if a supposedly suicidal patient was ignored when they desperately called you, so you've got a mess on your hands.

Complete bull. All therapists have a recording on their phone line that says "if this is an emergency, call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room." No therapist is responsible for being available to their fucked up patients 24/7.

And why don't you stick to anecdotes about people you know? We don't need anyone to explain to us what a NPD text book case Trump is. Helen Keller can see it.

My fri end who is BPD can get her therapist to come to the phone. Therapist will even call whn she is travelling! And my friend is always bothering her GP for something and has perfected getting things for free, the latest being a handicapped sticker for her car. She can walk perfectly well an there is nothing physically wrong with her.

Pushy (NPD/BPD) people won't take no for an answer. They'll stalk a therapist, find out where he/she lives, turn up banging on the door, get a "friend" to go by, follow the therapists car to a store and get out and tell them they HAVE to talk NOWWWW, they'll spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to harrass them if they're turned away... You don't know what you've gotten yourself into until you've been in any kind of relationship with these people.

Whoever upthread said that therapists don't like BPD's because there is no cure and therapy doesn't progress. That's bullshit. Therapists LOVE patients who will need them forever. They are cash cows. Returning customers are always best. New ones cost money to market in the door.

BPD's love going to therapy because they get to rant to someone who will just listen, placate and talk them off a ledge. They need constant validation. The attention they get through therapy fills that insatiable need.

No, r138s, therapists loathe BPDs. They can be frighteningly vindictive.

A psychologist friend of mine had two -- TWO -- sessions with a BPD patient before that patient reported my friend to the board. For what, you may ask? For forgetting a small detail about the patient between session one and two.

I should add, this is the only formal complaint my friend has ever received in 30 years of practice.

[quote] And as a therapist, you could of course be held liable if a supposedly suicidal patient was ignored when they desperately called you,

That's not true. r135 is correct.

Well that's good - I'll admit I was wrong on that. But I still think they'd try to scheme and get a therapist in trouble because that's what they do.

There's also this weird trait they have - they want to get preferential treatment when they're in any kind of group. So they'd view the other patients as rivals and they'd start figuring out how to be "special" and get more attention from the therapist than the other patients. Oh it's just mind blowing how competitive and jealous they are, in ANY situation.

all of these posts are talking about narcissists and sociopaths. borderlines hurt themselves, mostly. the turn on others because, paradoxically, they are afraid others will hurt and toss them aside.

yay, datalounge--another hate thread.

you can't hate a bpd more than they hate themselves. and if they bother to play head games with you, they usually really like you and want to keep you around. but their problems are not knowing what the rules and limits are, and deliberately testing them to make sure that you really like them back, and won't leave.

I don't think you've ever been in a relationship with a borderline, R142. They'll suck the life right out of you. They're not mature enough to really care about another person - ergo, no empathy - they don't take your feelings into account. They want you to help THEM - but they have no interest in you, as a person - it's me me me me me me me...... Now maybe they can't help it, but that doesn't really provide much consolation to a person who isn't seen as a separate person that matters one bit (other than being of service to the BPD).

I worked as a med nurse on locked inpt. psych units for over ten years. And I have to say the borderlines, all women, were the worst to deal with.

Structurally, they had no sense of a grounded ego. Consequently, they were continually attempting to keep everyone around them on edge, which gave them the only sense of personal power they had. Interruption, talking loudly, demanding, entitled, angry outbursts when they didn’t get their way, more or less constant manipulation. They were never content with much of anything.

They are very tormented people.

After working so long in this environment, I reached the conclusion that practically all the patients I encountered had been sexually abused, in one way or another, as children, which they had subsequently internalized, to the point where it had inuenced their outlook and behavior as adults.

With the borderlines, their behaviors appeared so ingrained that the possibility of personal awareness, let alone healing, seemed remote. Perpetually angry, feeling disenfranchised, they end up on the periphery of society, where self-medication, of one sort or another, weakens and ultimately kills them.

again, i think you are talking about narcissism. a person in distress (any person) will be more caught up with themselves in trying to lower the distress. the problem us, bpd people are more often in distress than not. most distressed people become more self-centered while enduring it. that's survival--withdraw into the self.

bpd's do have genuine problems understanding the minds of others, and this does involve empathy. but that doesn't mean they don't want to understand (those are npds, again). actually, most of their flailing around and driving you crazy is, most likely, an attempt to understand what you think. since they assume that they are awful and you will leave them. they are trying to find out why you might do so. where the line in the sand is.

also, when you claim they have no empathy, that cannot be entirely true. they can have a great deal of feeling for other people, care about and even love others deeply. they can be upset that you are upset. the problem is, they assume that they have done something to make you that way (and generally, they have) and then are frantic about abandonment and how they can fix the relationship. again, distress reaction interfering with an ability to replicate the other's mental state.

When I read descriptions like r144 I can understand the high rate of suicidality among borderlines.

I wonder if borderlines who are aware of their diagnosis and have read the rather bleak literature on their prognosis are actually at a higher risk of suicide, because it all seems so hopeless.

I once read that the more educated and/or intelligent a patient with schizophrenia was, the more likely they were to commit suicide. Perhaps a similar dynamic is at play.

It's so widely held as the reason - but I'm not sure I buy that sexual abuse is a main cause of borderline (and especially npd.) Being coddled or over-valued by parents is a possible cause I'd buy into (that was my mother's cause - but she was full-on NPD).

As my partner said, when kids see they can get away with bullying and entitled behavior, that it works, it becomes a lifelong pattern. That makes sense to me too. And some research, like twin studies, shows there may be a genetic cause. Their brains may be different. In my mother's case, she had a very low heart-rate and would come home from checkups saying the doctor had marveled at that. Years later, I read that a key finding with psychopaths is a low heart rate. I thought, Voila!! the bitch was a psychopath (but she fits NPD better, caring ever so much about being admired.)

Anyhow, a low heartrate is a physical symptom which to me implies there's a physical cause, in the chemistry or wiring of the brain - probably in the frontal cortex (which is found to be abnormal in both psychopaths and children with "conduct disorder" - which often predict psychopathy - or narcissism.)

Also interesting.

R142 While I agree mentally ill people suffer themselves, there is no denying that the behaviours described in this thread hurt others every freakin time (use Medium Chill always). Mentally ill people need to realise what is wrong with them and self-disclose if they find the courage to do it, and then use the coping mechanisms to stop hurting those around them (who are not to blame nor made suffer for the mentally ill's problems). Yes, it's tough.

and r147 proves the point--most of you are discussing narcissists.

Borderlines can in fact feel intense, loving feelings for their friends, family and relationship partners; the problem is, they tend to also devalue and manipulate those loved ones due to their rapidly shifting emotions and distorted sense of identity.

Borderlines can feel love for others but quickly revert back into hatred, fear or disgust for them — a behavior known as “splitting.” This can be incredibly traumatic for their loved ones, who may not understand why they are suddenly being seen in black and white (all good vs. all bad). Narcissists also engage in something similar to splitting known as idealization and devaluation, where they are prone to putting their loved ones on a pedestal, only to swiftly knock them off.

While “splitting” can be addressed through therapy and inner work, many narcissists feel rewarded from idealizing and devaluing their victims because it feeds their need for power and control. The idealization-devaluation-discard cycle with a narcissist is often not an emotionally charged or emotionally motivated cycle as it is in splitting, but rather a more manufactured pattern that enables narcissistic abusers to move forward to other sources of narcissistic supply...

...both borderlines and narcissists have been shown by brain scans to have deficiencies in areas of the brain related to empathy...

Borderlines and narcissists can also differ in their ability to change and prognosis. In terms of treatment, individuals with BPD may be able to benefit from Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) if they are willing to work on their behavior. In contrast to the myth that BPD is a hopeless disorder or too difficult to treat, DBT has shown promising results

R133, that’s my mother. She absolutely CANNOT tolerate harmony. It bores her. If everyone is getting along and being pleasant for too long, you can see her getting antsy. She gets restless and agitated. Like, physically; pacing, fidgetinf. Then starts the picking. She’ll pull out a weapon and aim it at the most pleasant person present. Sometimes she antagonizes people herself; sometimes she pits people against each other.

Once she gets it going, she sits back and seems relaxed and happy. Even when she’s arguing and tantruming, she’s visibly happy. And has the nerve to ask “I wish everyone could just get along!”

I think R145 is right. Still a very interesting thread. I've met and been involved with people who met most of these descriptions. Some have more redeeming traits than others, all are a nightmare of some sort or other. One of my exes (short relationship, 1 month) was like this. She's the only one I actually feel for, because she genuinely tried to fight her destructive impulses and make things better, but always made a mess of it. She was a highly intelligent woman but couldn't use her own intelligence to make her life happier. She was a mess. I know she loved me (in her way) deeply and would have done anything for me to stay, but it was just fucking impossible. And I had been in shitty relationships before, so wasn't looking for another.

For years she emailed me once or twice a year. One day (after 6 or 7 years) she was walking from a gay demonstration and came face to face with my girlfriend and me as we were walking towards the same demonstration. She stopped in her tracks, turned around and left immediately. She never emailed me again.

Is pitting people against each other more a sign of BPD or NPD?

interesting read:

R154, I don’t know. I thought it was a byproduct of the BPD’s fear of abandonment. It’s a distraction. In my mother’s case, I think it is. When it would be time to leave, to go back to school, she’d pick a fight with me. Every visit, decades later, I can predict within an hour, when she’ll start one. She has a deep dread of saying goodbye and it’s easier to feel anger than the sadness of being left.

Or, she just likes the drama. Either way, it’s really fucked up and she turns her dread of parting into everyone else’s fear of getting together at all.

I tend to think NPD's are more calculating because their defense mechanisms keep them more stable - so they are better able to triangulate or pit people against each other.

But these are invented terms - I think there's a great deal of overlap between BPD's and NPD's. Neither one has a stable sense of self and they both use other people to "regulate" their mood (typically by manipulating other people into gratifying them - even if that means stirring up trouble so they can sit back and get a thrill out of the mayhem they caused - it makes them feel powerful and relieves their terrible emptiness that's there because, here we go again, in BOTH BPD and NPD, there is no stable sense of self.

Neither one can tolerate being alone - inside of them, there's no there there. Like try putting a toddler in an apartment and make sure he's got food and water, etc., and he'd be miserable because he can't really regulate himself (take care of himself emotionally.) Borderlines and narcissists are like that, basically.

I meant try putting a toddler in an apartment ALONE and see how miserable he would quickly get - THAT is what happens when the sense of self is not developed, and that is why NPDs and BPDs bedevil other people, invariably, unless cured by DBT or long-term psychotherapy to "re-parent" them and go back and try to establish a stable, SEPARATE sense of self, which they lack.

if there isn't any difference between them, why are they called different things and why do they have different prognoses?

npds thrive on the shit. bpds actually don't want to be that way, but don't know any other way of being.

also, regardless of the disorder, people do have personalities.

another interesting read:

Agree with R157. There is a lot of overlap with NPD and BPD. I can totally relate to the lack of self/ego. My family member has as much as told me that she feels nothing inside. There is an emptiness. No core sense of self. All of her values, opinions, tastes, interests and feelings of self worth come from someplace outside of herself.

[quote]She stopped in her tracks, turned around and left immediately. She never emailed me again.

Extreme envy of happy and content people is a HUGE red flag for BPDs. They work so hard at trying to be happy and content, but they can never get there, so it fills them with rage when they encounter others who are able to achieve it so effortlessly. It seems terribly unfair to them. Especially if the other person doesn't, in their mind, have any right to be so happy ----less attractive, fat, unsuccessful, not as smart or talented, etc.

As mentioned in a previous post, women with ASD were often misdiagnosed with BPD or HPD in the past. This was largely due to the fact that women and girls with ASD can present quite differently to boys and men with ASD. I guess it's possible that gay men and boys with ASD may present more similarly to women and girls with ASD, than straight men and boys with ASD, but I really don't know.

With ASD, getting an accurate diagnosis early, and proper intervention and therapy, in particular social skills and how to understand the way you think and regulate your emotions, is the key to a better life for not only the individual but also those around them.

Some of the comments in this thread are fucked up and don't know the difference between the various personality disorders. BPD's have empathy and are not always filled with rage. Again, there are various degrees of BPD a person might have. An extreme case could present some of the very severe symptoms in this thread but many symptoms in this thread are not accurate for many BPD's.

With coping skills, a very structured life and self awareness, BPD's can lead fulfilling, productive and normal lives.

Someone asked but about gaslighting- anyone can gaslight but that is probably more NPD.

Anyone remember the character on The Sopranos named Gloria Trillo, played by Annabella Sciorra? One of the more fascinating characters in the series, and well acted.

Great scene. Classic BPD. Starting at :40.

these people aren't interested in what borderline is. they just want to rant about some fucked up person in their life that they have likely diagnosed themselves. if you only read message boards instead of articles by professionals, you don't care to understand. you just want to vent.

More amazing Annabella as nut job Gloria.

I am OP, r165. I have read a lot in journals/books (from academic presses) about BPD. And I was careful to mention I'm not interested in BPD diagnoses that come from non-professionals.

And now some guy who posts Sopranos YouTube clips has arrived. Send in the clowns..

Two former coworkers who reported to a narcissistic sociopath at my office dealt with her incredibly well. Both had mothers who had borderline personality disorder and did a shitload of damage to their daughters. One of those mothers killed herself a couple of years ago and left a hateful letter because she thought her husband was having an affair, and the other mother died last year after a few years of declining health. In the latter case, my friend/former colleague was her mother’s caregiver—her brother severed the relationship because of the damage she did to him—and when her mother died, she basically had a breakdown. It was torture to watch her be so tortured. She was devastated that her mother was gone, but she was also relieved (and tortured by the guilt of feeling relieved) because she was finally free of the abuse. It’s just completely insane to me. I lost my mother in December and all I feel is pain because she was my best friend and my hero in this world and any other.

I'm lazy about reading every previous post - what is ASD, R162? Antisocial personality disorder? Aspergers? Autism spectrum disorder?

STFU R165, the overwhelming majority of people here have relayed anecdotes of real people in their lives who definitely fit the clinical definition of BPD. And they have elaborated by providing examples of their behavior and what it's like to live with or be in a relationship with them.

it isn't triggering. i bet in half the cases, they don't have a clinical diagnosis to hang from. they are working off stereotypes rampant in the culture and assuming the asshole they know is bpd. then they go on to demonize bpds more by conflating them with narcissists that they know.

i very seriously doubt most people who have earned a diagnosis go around telling everyone. maybe those closest to them.

sadly, it seems having a diagnosis doesn't help people to understand them any better. and given many therapists don't want bpds as patients, i guess they are pretty fucked.

R172 is displaying classic borderline personality traits. So meta.

R172 You are correct. I doubt so many of these "stories" are true. They sound far-fetched. Not saying many aren't true, but the demonization in many posts make them suspect. Again, most of these stories are mixing up various personality disorders or just mixing up a fucked up individual with BPD.

“I think the manipulation thing I definitely had, where I would try to make someone feel a certain type of way. If they felt that way I would feel good, and then if they didn’t feel that way, I would think something’s wrong and that they’re mad at me,” he said.

When someone with BPD is described as “manipulative,” it’s often assumed they have bad intentions or are trying to hurt another person. While it’s unfair to assume everyone with BPD has this characteristic and demonize someone just because they have it, Davidson described his “manipulative behaviors” in a way we don’t often hear — he doesn’t do what he describes as manipulation to hurt someone else, he does it because he needs reassurance for himself.

For example, he said he sometimes tries to sway people into saying the exact thing he “needs to hear.”

“It’s like, ‘You hate me, don’t you?'” he explained. “Whatever question I ask, I’m expecting the opposite answer. That can be pretty fucking frustrating for the other person. They’re just so strung out and tired of answering the same exact fucking question… And then as soon as they break down, you go, ‘See, I knew it!'”

People who have close relationships with people to whom they have no legal obligations, that they suspect have borderline personality disorder, are not healthy themselves.

It's a serious, life-long, treatment resistant psychiatric disorder. These people are chronically unstable and cannot be 'fixed.' They are very troubled, and entirely self-involved, and highly theatrical, and exhausting, and they will devalue and discard you eventually, because you will not be able to ever satisfy their insatiable need for external validation of their constantly fluctuating moods (and why would you even want to try?)

It is over-diagnosed in women, because one of the traits - intense and changeable emotionality - is culturally designated as 'feminine' . However there is evidence that as many men have it as women. One of the main differences is that the female BDP tends to act out via self-harm, whereas the male BPD tends to act out violently towards others. That results in greater numbers of men with BPD being incarcerated than women with BPD. And once there, they will tend to be misdiagnosed as having anti-social personality disorder.

The classic example of a male with BPD is Oscar Pistorius.

To the naysayers, how the fuck do you expect DLers to know someone who has had a "clinical diagnosis" of BPD when the vast majority do not seek treatment, and when they do, their therapists are reluctant to treat them at all or even tell them they have BPD?

Diagnostic Criteria:

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self image and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. Fear of abandonment

2. Unstable or changing relationships

3. Unstable self-image; struggles with identity or sense of self

4. Impulsive or self-damaging behaviors (e.g., excessive spending, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).

5. Suicidal behavior or self-injury

6. Varied or random mood swings

7. Constant feelings of worthlessness or sadness

8. Problems with anger, including frequent loss of temper or physical fights

9. Stress-related paranoia or loss of contact with reality

*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, published by the American Psychiatric Association

I am someone who has struggled with severe depression and drug abuse for much of my life (I have serious physical issues too).

My parents divorced when I was nine. My father died of alcoholism when I was 26. He was basically gone after the divorce. My mother was never happy. I have no memories of birthdays being celebrated. She never celebrated a single event for my brother or me. Every major decision I ever made (what to major in in college, leaving home at 18, moving out of state, who I dated, getting pregnant, buying a house) was met with either yelling, panic, or terror of what would go wrong. When I moved out at 18, my roommates would laugh because she would leave ten minute long messages on our answering machine worrying worrying worrying worrying. She would always ask my roommates if I drove in the far right lane on the highway. My BF whose known her for 38 years says, “She doesn’t even know you. She doesn’t even know what you enjoy or the things you like to do.” My mother really doesn’t know who I am nor does she care to.

A great therapist I had helped me come to terms with the idea that my mother is a narcissist. My mother is like a child. It feels like I’m the parent, my brother and I absolutely raised ourselves, that is not a joke. Right now my mom is upset with me because in the beginning of my last vacation, she decided she couldn’t handle watching my dog, so I had to find a dog sitter while I was abroad (I ask for help maybe once ever two years even though we live 20 min apart). I was highly irritated that she did this, so she was upset that I didn’t respond to her texting wanting to know if I was mad at her, she was whining like a little girl. I refuse to play the games. So she did what she always does, which is she cried to my brother and he reached out to me asking me to call her so she’ll feel better. I knew better than to ask her to watch my dog, she’s never helped me with anything without some kind of problems my whole life. It’s never worth it.

The reason I like this thread is its really made me think about re-wiring and the permanent damage. I’m 46 now. I feel like the last ten years, it’s REALLY taken a toll on me (part of this is other stressors combined with my family of origin stuff). It scares me. I used to have more hope that I could break the cycle. I don’t feel that hope anymore.

Perhaps it’s time for therapy again....

r178 = "chronic feelings of emptiness"

Hurt people hurt people. Doesn't make it easier to deal with them, but having this perspective does help you to take things a little less personally and maybe have some empathy.

^ I think part of the key to dealing with them is to never take it personally. If it wasn’t you, they’d do it to someone else.

That is a useful point r181

R178 . Totally empathize. Needy constantly intrusive mother who thinks her children exist to owe her their lives for all the “sacrifice” she made. Has ruined every attempt at happiness I make and if I don’t. Stay in constant touch, it’s abandonment and ungrateful ness.

All I remember is constantly having to care for her and her needs. After my father died young. we were in our teens and early 20s, she used it to justify being the child who deserved caring for because she was a widow. For 30 years she has been using the “poor me” routine to justify not letting her children leave. I was lucky, I,left for the city. But she kept my older brother living with her until he finally married (a horrible women) just to justify moving out. My sister was busted into buying a house down the street to care for her (at 52!).

I really want to abandon her but fear the guilt when she eventually dies. And hate to dump it all on my siblings. They don’t deserve it either. I really hate her now. I will only feel relief when she is dead. I envy people with mentally healthy mothers. They can live their life - not their parents. I also am severely ant-children because I feel every mother has children just to satisfy their own ego and need to be wanted.

Yes, OP, Of Course ..........Everybody I Know !

This thread is great.

I find it fasinating when borderlines start adding to BPD article comment sections with their “personalities” on full display.

I think this thread is full of NPD's pretending to be BPD's.

[quote]they'll call and call and say they're suicidal and make the nurse/receptionist go get the therapist for the "emergency" but that's just to get attention - and the therapist will be blamed to higher authorities for made-up shit (claiming the therapist made a romantic pass that never happened, for example). Sheesh, if I could think of all their machinations I'd have to be one. Everyone who gets in their crosshairs (and it's most people who get involved in ANY way with one - whether it's psychiatrist's client, relationship partner, employee or employer, etc.) will be toyed with, like a cat with a mouse. Lies will be told, accusations will fly, possibly lawsuits, your name will be used in fraudulent situations (my mother put my name on her business and the IRS got after me), etc ad infinitum. They're users. And as a therapist, you could of course be held liable if a supposedly suicidal patient was ignored when they desperately called you, so you've got a mess on your hands.

[quote]They'll stalk a therapist, find out where he/she lives, turn up banging on the door, get a "friend" to go by, follow the therapists car to a store and get out and tell them they HAVE to talk NOWWWW, they'll spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to harrass them if they're turned away... You don't know what you've gotten yourself into until you've been in any kind of relationship with these people.

Okay, R82 here...I'm also the one who asked for specific examples of how a borderline would exhaust a therapist. I don't agree with ANY of what you wrote above. Why would I bother going to a therapist in the first place if I was just going to become combative? That makes no sense. Either I don't have BPD or you don't know what you're talking about. Either that or you're referring to the most borderline patient ever known to man!

R187 He is referring to his fantasy.

R187, you're right. There's everything on that list except boiling the therapist's pet bunnie.

To R187, this is R39 (not me): ... therapists loathe BPDs. They can be frighteningly vindictive.

A psychologist friend of mine had two -- TWO -- sessions with a BPD patient before that patient reported my friend to the board. For what, you may ask? For forgetting a small detail about the patient between session one and two.

I should add, this is the only formal complaint my friend has ever received in 30 years of practice.

Well I'm pretty certain I have BPD and that sounds stupid even to me, R190.

R190 That person had far more going on than BPD, dear.

Here's a good article about therapy for borderlines, which includes this paragraph:

The key to therapeutic success in treating the borderline personality is compassionate concern, empathic understanding of the depths of early childhood Pain, and the patience and non-reactivity of a saint. Therapeutic skills and the timing of interventions must take into consideration the borderline's terror and fragility during the release of Pain. The slightest hint of therapist neglect, rejection, or insensitivity will send the BP into painfully negative transference with its accompanying accusations, ambivalence, and attack. He needs constant assurance of the therapist's benevolent intent and will continually test for the slightest hint of inattention. It is also very important for the therapist to monitor his or her own aggressive tendencies and vulnerable, transferential trigger points.

Anxiety, if left untreated, can cause all sorts of horrible behaviors. I'm talking someone with true anxiety not the normal, every day anxiety.

Anxiety meds help people with BPD. Just say away from the ones like Xanax or Valium. Klonopin is less addicting and has a longer shelf life in your system.

I imagine that one reason that therapists don't want to work with these people is the threat of violence.

A friend of mine was married to a NPD who was emotionally abusive to both her and the children. He was smart enough not to hit them (and avoid arrest), but he would break things around them--dishes, furniture, etc, and threaten to harm the family dog. Once she finally got a divorce--with the financial and emotional support of her family--he would loudly threaten to kill her attorney, to kill her therapist, to kill her and her parents--he would run up to these people in the parking lot of the courthouse and scream (literally) right into their faces. They were eventually assigned a magistrate (that is something different from a judge, but I don't remember how) and a parental coordinator and he was ordered to use some special texting app that is admissible in court as evidence whenever he needed to communicate with her about the children. He essentially sues her, or begins legal action against her, every single month: usually trying to get the kids (change visitation), who are frightened of him, away from her. (He also doesn't ever pay child support, though he can well afford it.)

(He's, of course, wealthy, so he can afford the constant court.)

He has had magistrates and judges yell at him in open court that he's a terrible father. He'll pipe down for a few months, but then he's right back to his old self.

Seriously, don't have children with an NPD. You end up tied to them for decades.

A therapist will work with anyone. That is there damn job. They know going in they might have to work with some very dangerous people.

WRONG, r196. A subset of therapists refuse to work with BPDs.

For r196

^^^That is not true.

There are therapists and family law lawyers who will refuse to work high-conflict divorces for exactly this reason. And, by the way, the ones who do specialize in high-conflict are SUPER expensive. (Usually, the high-conflict family lawyers are big beefy guys: they know its dangerous.)

My friend that I was talking about above, she was paying her therapist, who handles women divorcing violent guys, a 2,000 retainer per month, plus more if she needed it.

r192 = no true Scotsman fallacy

R197 Bullshit. And you can't equate lawyers with therapists. Lawyers can decide who and what they take on. While therapists technically can, most don't.

I'm r197, and I didn't say anything about lawyers.

And my original point stands.

R105, my answer was possibly a bit pat. It's hard to engage with that question because getting over narcissistic abuse is such a personal process. In my case, I had a parent with NPD, which destroyed my childhood and teenage years, and then I was targeted by a psychopath and another narcissist in my early adulthood. Rewiring my brain meant revisiting my childhood again and again, dealing with the various instances of trauma, analysing my interactions with the abusers and why I was vulnerable to them, and finally letting go of the fear and self-blame. Being involved with someone with BPD actually helped with the latter, because, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, he was someone who was actually going through therapy and led a fairly stable life. It made it difficult to have to disconnect, but at the same time I really began to see people with personality disorders as damaged human beings who I could (and should) stay away from and not monsters I was powerless against.

R202 The President stands by his bullshit. Your point?

[quote]this is the only formal complaint my friend has ever received in 30 years of practice.

And yet in 30 years of practice, he worked with hundreds of patients with BPD as the main or a co-occuring disorder.

Goes to show that very few people with BPD would act out in such a way as your post claims.

R196, why do you think therapists have to work with anyone who knocks on their door? I went through a hell of a time finding someone who works with children.

If a therapist doesn’t think they can help someone, don’t they refer them to another therapist who specializes in that area? For instance, a patient who thinks they’re trans...

I had a pediatrician who flat-out told me that she doesn’t work with parents who refuse to vaccinate their children.

R170, it's autism spectrum disorder, which nowadays includes Asperger's.

Thanks R207.

About psychiatric refusals, some insurance companies don't want to pay for treating personality disorders because it's trickier - there's no pill (like an antidepressant or antipsychotic or antianxiety med) that is easily prescribed -- and it usually entails more hours of therapy with questionable results.

[quote]He needs constant assurance of the therapist's benevolent intent and will continually test for the slightest hint of inattention.

This is not only true for therapists. They do the same thing to friends and family members that they rely on for emotional support. There is an insatiable need for validation and a willing ear to listen to them vent their feelings in a never ending loop. I've been on phone calls for hours listening and trying to offer support, but if my attention waivers even a little or if I have to jump off the call (you know---to attend to my own life), or if I say one wrong thing (usually involving advice or judgment) they become enraged.

Mind you, BPDs will suck you dry emotionally, but they have no ability or interest in helping you in turn. If you reach out to them for a sympathetic ear, you will be met with a curt Hallmark greeting card response of fake sympathy and then dismissed. BPD's can not conceal their boredom with other people's problems. One of their favorite things to say to get off the hook is, "I have too many of my own problems to help right now."

R183, if you’re still here, I feel ya. There’s a lot of guilt.

I don't know about only women having BPD but my dad had it. Terrible anger, violence. Always at war with either family relations or neighbours. Hatred. Despisement. Moodiness. I consider it a miracle i survived my childhood. We lived how he wanted, even down to where he wanted the furniture placing. Lived to keep him happy. BPD people are not for the fainthearted i can assure you. I leave the worst out.

Just coming out of a 3 year relationship with a woman diagnosed with BPD and it was the most difficult relationship I have ever been involved in. When we began dating, she had been in regular therapy for a number of years and seemed committed to overcoming her classic borderline behaviours. For the first time in her life, she was able to hold down a job in which she excelled, she was making a conscious effort to change the way she interacted with others and seemed capable of maintaining a stable, long-term relationship.

Long story short, a life change triggered her BPD which sent her into a major downward spiral. All I could do was watch as she reverted back to the behaviours I had only heard tales of and thought she had long left behind. The relationship ended when she discarded me in spectacular fashion, while making every effort to ensure I lost everything from the life we had built together. I used to feel bad for her because she had had such a terrible life but now I don't think these people deserve anyone's pity. They always seem to make the choices which will cause the most pain to those around them.

R212, was the life change menopause? (You don't have to answer if it was something else. Just curious.)

[R213], no just a life change, not "the change of life".

Guess I didnt need those brackets.

R212, got it. (Some women do go loopy during the change.)

r211 sounds a lot like my dad, terrible rage issues. He would be okay for a bit, then snap over the tiniest things.

Some of these sound like Anti-Personality Disorder which breeds socio/psychopaths. Most aren't killers but they love to torture people in other ways.

My mother was an extremely violent borderline. She was extremely abusive to me as a child (and my dog and my elderly grandmother). I had a breakdown when she died because I felt so happy to be rid of her and I couldn't ha doe the guilt. I had literally been living in hiding from her from ages 16-27 when she dies, because she behaved exactly like a stalker. I literally never tell people about this because it is incomprehensible to people. I have to believe in hell, because there is no way she is just lying in a cemetery doing nothing. I was living in hiding from her in every way for 11 years.

Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with BPDs (or NPDs) who try to pit people against each other? I am stuck in a work situation with someone exactly like this, and it's difficult to not fall for it.

Is BPD just a catch-all umbrella term for psychotics now?

No r221

Well it sure seems like it from reading this thread, R222.

Psychosis entails a dramatic break from reality, r223. Borderlines are not true psychotics in this sense.

R220 Long story, but I had to fire my BPD employee for buying and doing prescription drugs she didn't have prescriptions for on work time.

This article is someone helpful on handling BPD in the workplace.

Some tips on how to spot a borderline personality –and if you do, please immediately distance yourself.

1. They have a very obvious sadness in their eyes, frequently look as if they are on the verge of tears, and may cry in front of you - even very soon after meeting you. They will theatrically signal their depression/ sadness very quickly.

2. They hyper-vigilantly assess people very closely and intensely on meeting them. They are looking for any signs of emotional vulnerability, over which they will try to bond with you, very rapidly. They are also looking for signs of empathy, softness, kindness, which they will seek to exploit, very rapidly.

3. They are very reactive and excitable if they sense you are open to providing them with sympathetic or empathic companionship. If you give them a positive experience i.e. make them laugh in the course of some casual conversation, or compliment them, they will over react, with wide-eyed joyfulness, or their laughter will be inappropriately long and hard - they may say something like 'I haven't laughed this much in so long!'. The reactions will be intense. They are reacting to the possibility that you might be their next 'rescuer' / 'protector'.

4. The tales of woe will be very swift in coming. These tales will be very complicated, involve more than one person, and date back years. They are not looking for solutions - and any you suggest will be rejected, at first sadly and then with anger.

5. The borderline will characterise themselves as hapless, used, naive, childlike, betrayed, abandoned, bullied, tricked, abused. Not just by one, but by a number of people.

6. Their adversaries will be characterised as cunning, powerful, cruel, scheming, selfish, 'psychopaths', 'narcissists', 'sociopaths', criminals, stalkers, persecutors. liars. There will be no nuance in the borderline's portrayal of these people.

7. Borderlines seek only support and validation. No criticism, circumspection, or self-awareness will be entertained by them. They cannot cope psychologically with any attempt to persuade them that they are not a hapless victim. That is their entire identity and the basis of their entire relational style. It is how they make sense of the world. Try and shake that and you will experience borderline rage, which can be extremely destructive, even homicidal.

Thanks r225

An ex friend of mine. She was misdiagnosed bipolar as a teenager and it only became clear what was wrong with her after the drugs she was taking we're stopped due to seizures.

Unfortunately she got married and had a kid. Causing huge trauma to her daughter and spouse due to her terrible personality and unstable, abusive, behaviour.

Since she came off the meds and got the right therapy she's been slowly improving. Its taken 5 years of intense therapy for her to start having a good life though. She actually acts like an adult now. Shell have to keep going to therapy forever though, or she'll regress.

I wish her well but hope she stays far away from me. 'Friendship' with her was a manipulative, clingy nightmare.

R226 seemingly got BPD and NPD mixed up. Actually many posts in this thread describes NPD or sheer psychopatic behaviors.

R229 there is a Huge Narcissistic element in BPD.

R226 I'm sorry but I have to disagree with some of your points. My dad was a BPD and he looked as normal as the next bloke. No sad eyes or anything. I'm sure there are BPD that look kinda odd and BPD who look as normal as you'd ever see. My mum always said you don't know what someone is like until you live with them. I would say that about some BPD. The average person will have no idea what hell it is to live with a BPD until its too late.

One thing I have noticed about the borderlines in my life is that they lack self-insight to an almost breathtaking degree. It's hard to explain, but if you've seen it, you would recognize it.

I would say it reversed R230: there is a huge borderline element in NPD. NPDs are actually BPDs whose central coping mechanism is to cut out any sense of empathy.

Which makes NPD malignant (deliberately inflicting pain and chaos on others) whereas BPD is just self-centered emotional chaos with collateral damages on others.

R232 Oh Yes. This is so true. My ex has it, he wouldn't accept the diagnosis but he ticks every box. At times I wanted to just shake him and scream. " YOU KEEP DOING IT TO YOURSELF! " The same fights with multiple people, the same "Betrayal " the same "Being attacked!" The same issues and language. He couldn't see the pattern in his behavior at all.

Wow, R226. I wish I had read your post years ago. It explains SO much. In particular, #4 thru #7 ----fits to a T.

[quote]So, are most stalkers/harassers BPD, do you think?

No. Stalkers are a mix of people : on the autism spectrum (the socially awkward 'would-be suitor'), the delusionally disordered/ psychotic (e.g. erotomaniacs - the type who believe they have a special bond with a celebrity), the paraphiliac (sexual sadists/ exhibitionists/ voyeurs) and the jilted suitor / ex partner (this type is often a borderline).

R163 - my experience is that borderlines ALWAYS have rage, right under the surface, and frequently explode into rants. It's a very key trait. Here's a study about their lack of empathy relative to normal people (borderline is a spectrum and some cases are milder than others, of course):

“Our results showed that people with BPD traits had reduced activity in brain regions that support empathy,” said the study’s lead author Dr. Brian Haas, an assistant professor in the Franklin College of Arts and Sciences psychology department...“Borderline personality disorder is considered one of the most severe and troubling personality disorders,” Dr. Joshua Miller said. “BPD can make it difficult to have successful friendships and romantic relationships. These findings could help explain why that is.”

R226 strikes me as someone who has little empathy .

NPD/psychopaths don't tend to go into therapy unless it is court ordered or their life has completely fallen apart. They don't think or won't admit anything is wrong with them. BPD is the opposite. Not only will they seek therapy but they will stalk their therapists.

[quote] Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with BPDs (or NPDs) who try to pit people against each other? I am stuck in a work situation with someone exactly like this, and it's difficult to not fall for it.

Yes, I've worked with two women over the years who are like this. This is what I'd suggest.

1) Keep huge emotional barriers between yourselves and her. Always be pleasant so she doesn't target you, but if they start complaining or telling you sob stories find a break as quickly as you can so you can excuse yourself because you have another pressing engagement.

2) Try to get an office away from her so as to minimize contact with her as much as possible.

3) Resist the temptation to bitch about about her to others as work unless you are already sure the other person you ant to bitch to already agrees with you that this woman is a nightmare. BPDs and NPD's can be very charming and can woo people to their sides before the other people realize what they are really like. If you bitch about her to someone you don;t know and that person then tells her what you said, she'll have all the more reason to target you and involve herself in your life.

4) Keep a paper trail of your dealings with them. the two women I've worked with who had these issues were both infamously litigious, and would consistently go to H/R or even to lawyers to get people in trouble. Neither of them ever went after me in that way, but I've made sure in all my dealings with them to keep a paper trail because of the havoc they can wreak.

R238 We have no obligation whatsoever to give borderline personalities what they crave, which has nothing to do with expecting ordinary civility, to which they are of course entitled. (up to the point at which they start behaving badly). These people make incessant, abusive demands for other people's time and attention and sympathy. It is not unempathic to point that out, nor to maintain proper boundaries to prevent them wreaking havoc and making others ill with the stress of their erratic, pathological patterns of behaviour.

r238 strikes me as someone with BPD.

What R242 said.

R241, Medium Chill (upthread).

R226 I've thought the same thing about "sad eyes". You see it in any picture of Tsarina Alexandra (retrospectively diagnosed). The borderline I had to deal with frequently affected the same expression. I do think it is a bit of an affectation though, meant to communicate "Oh, look at poor sad me!" There are pictures of Princess Diana where she maintains the same expression.

Who else thinks Judy was a borderline?

I've never heard that, but I have read that Marilyn Monroe might have been.

Di had the borderline eyes

R244 great picture

Another example. Mary Todd Lincoln.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R240, interestingly, my BPD sister keeps a paper trail of everything. She went head to head against a litigious woman at her job (every year she gets a new nemesis) and she had photos and texts and emails. It was fucking scary.

R237, my BPD sister SEEMS to have empathy. But only if it doesn’t cost her anything, or if the person is on the “good” side of her split. She was annoyed at a coworker whose son died, because they had to split his work among themselves when he was on bereavement leave and when he came back to work he was “a drag”.

[quote]BPD is the opposite. Not only will they seek therapy but they will stalk their therapists.

Sure, Jan.

You're saying Princess Di didn't have empathy for others? LOL GTFO

Are there any observations about BPDs and animals/pets?

I was just thinking about my BPD sister and the way she is with animals. Dogs, mostly. When she and her ex adopted a dog, she (and he) went out of their way to keep that dog THEIRS. They didn’t want the dog bonding with anyone else. YOU weren’t allowed to feed it people food or make friends with it by giving it treats. Yet she would sneak it pieces of steak and baby it. Other people were not allowed to pet it because “he was abused and he doesn’t like strangers”.

She cares for her employer’s dog now, and it’s the same thing. No one understands Fluffy the way she does.

But the other thing is that she’s very mean (IMO) to the animals, too. She yells at them a lot for doing dog things, like barking at noises outside or being afraid of baths. The dogs usually follow her around like, well, puppy dogs, but then she complains that the dog is too “clingy”.

I know another woman who does this as well. I don’t know if she’s BPD but she’s... difficult.

[quote]You're saying Princess Di didn't have empathy for others? LOL GTFO

I believe that borderlines are very capable of an intense emotional reaction to suffering in others, but I think it's quite a theatrical performance, meant to demonstrate how sensitive they are, in order to make themselves appealing to potential protectors and care-givers. It's a kind of intense, pathological, unhealthy, empathy.

My grandmother used to call that face (Diana @ R250) a sour puss.

That look on Di's face is more than her eyes. Her whole face is hang dog and her slumped body language screams victim too.

What do you think of BPD's who have more interest in, and empathy for, strangers and acquaintances than close friends and relatives? I'm talking about people who have been extremely supportive at great personal cost. Why are they dismissed, ignored and dropped in favor of the great gal BPD just met a month ago at the gym?

What do you think of a BPD who is more interested in ancestors she's never met (ancestry.com is a current obsession) than her living breathing relatives?

Borderline between what and what?

R254 I suspect that a lot of pitbull advocates have borderline personality disorder. The extreme ideation of their love object (pitbulls) and rage filled hate towards anyone who criticizes these dogs.

R259, batshit and stark raving mad

R259, well, more technically I think borderline is the line between psychs (completely out of touch with reality - hearing voices - thinking you're Napoleon or whatever) and neurosis (you have a distinct separate self, you're capable of recognizing and respecting others, you have well-developed empathy for others, but you struggle with too much fear/anxiety).

There's some kind of spectrum: psychotic -- borderline -- neurotic -- mature/self-actualized

As someone put in on 'urbandictionary': Psychotic, which means to be out of touch with reality, Neurotic means to suck at dealing with reality.

But at least neurotic is fully aware of reality. Borderlines aren't 100% there -- they kind of make up a fake reality that centers on them, the way a toddler does, oblivious to others, but not having hallucinations or anything like that (psychotic).

* when I said "psychs" I should have said "psychosis"

There are generally thought to be three types of emapthy. Many psychology researchers believe BPDs are capable of cognitive empathy but lack emotional empathy and compassion. And compassion is better than empathy (read Paul Bloom’s book Against Empathy).

Cognitive empathy - the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another’s emotional state. Sometimes we call this kind of empathy “perspective taking.”

Emotional/sensory empathy - the subjective state resulting from emotional contagion. It is our automatic drive to respond appropriately to another’s emotions.

Compassion (Empathic Concern) - sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others. parenting; desire to help; sharing

What bizarre speculations. Whatever problems you sit at home queens have had in your lives you attribute to so called Borderlines. I note that no official diagnostic criteria includes "sad Princess Di eyes" or stalking one's therapist.

That makes a lot of sense, R264. Psychology is bedeviled by semantics - trying to invent words to describe such complex descriptions of various personality types. So it's easy to argue about any of this - it's more an art than a science, but there's some truth to it or we wouldn't find so many people describing similar behaviors in the difficult people they have to deal with.

I think all borderlines, narcissists and even psychopaths have cognitive empathy. They use it to manipulate others or identify good targets. Ted Bundy said he could go to a mall and watch girls walk down the hallway and identify the good targets that wouldn't be assertive and stand up to him - the ones that would be easier to grab and drag into his car without putting up too much of a fight. That's a pretty highly developed cognitive empathy I would say - reading that girl's emotional state and "type" just by looking at her.

People holding up the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria like its anything more than the common wisdom of scientists and their attempt to classify a group of symptoms the best they can is bizarre. It’s not like there is a genetic test for personality disorders. Three different psychologist could diagnosis the same person with schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder or bipolar. It happens ALL THE TIME.

“DSM-5, and DSM in general, is just an expression of the increasing confusion in the mental health community (including both researchers and clinicians, and both psychiatry and psychology with their neuroscience contingents) in regard to the nature of the human mental processes—or the mind-—altogether. “

R143, right on. WW

R143, TY for "being of service". That'll wake one up!

What's up the Borderline Defender who always shows up in these threads to explain that borderlines aren't really that bad because it's their own misery and self-loathing that drives them to torment others? If somebody's behavior is making my life hell, ultimately I don't care what the motivation is. Whether you are tormenting me because you hate yourself, or just because you think it's fun, the end result for me is the same. If it's the former, I may be able to sympathize with you from a distance, but no way am I keeping you in my life.

"Me, me, me, me, me!"

Yep R152, why they ruin every holiday .

Not many in this thread understand true BPD. Most of you are fucking arm chair psychologists intent on demonizing people. A lot of what is described sounds like bi-polar.

[quote]intent on demonizing people.

Which is, coincidentally enough, a symptom of BPD!

It is but this thread is over the top. The stories read creative writing more than real life.

Sorry for your diagnosis, R273. Re-read this thread until it sinks in how your behavior is perceived by others. And then get help.

Not healthy ourselves R176? I'll tell you what we are though. Better than you.

[quote]"Me, me, me, me, me!" —R270

Nope, r271. I don't think everything is about me and my life, but I also don't think I and my life need to be about accommodating people with personality disorders. Life is too short.

R209, so true I could cry

Is Bethanny Frankel BPD or NDP?

I remember that interview R250, and with all the sympathy I had for her and her situation, it felt like she was playing a part. And I was only 17 at the time.

Diana had an affair with cardiac surgeon Dr Hasnat Khan and would pester his hospital with calls even when he was on duty or in theatre. She insisted on attending a heart surgery operation and here she is with her borderline eyes, which are heavily made up in contravention of the hygiene codes, which led to her being lambasted in the UK media for her self-indulgence. The picture is a good example of the borderline's theatrical 'look at me I'm so sensitive' attention seeking.

[quote]Borderline between what and what?

Psychosis and neurosis as noted by someone above. There are calls to have it renamed 'emotionally unstable personality disorder'

How come we never saw Princess Di rage?? Why didn't her mask ever slip!?

Odd that r275 thinks people are making up these stories about their BPD relatives and friends. Don’t you have anyone in your life like this? If not, you’re either very very lucky, or... you are that person.

Her mask slipped regularly.

Meltdown in public

This woman strikes me as a borderline

This woman also strikes me as a borderline

R273, many bipolar are just as destructive to people around them. Or worse.

Agree, R288. That girl was so messed up!

I am both borderline and bipolar...and wonder if I am really just one, but who the fuck can tell in the absence of any proper scientific test. Wonder if I am massively over medicated for no reason.

I wonder if the MAOIs (class of antidepressants that predate the SSRIs like Prozac, Zoloft, et al) would be effective at treating BPD.

I ask because the MAOIs have proven effective (more effective than SSRIs) in the treatment of atypical depression. One of the signs of atypical depression is increased sensitivity to interpersonal rejection. Another is increased mood reactivity. Both of these symptoms are also seen in BPD.

The problem is, however, that many shrinks no longer prescribe the MAOIs, as they have more side effects than the SSRIs.

So if it's 'borderline' does it ever spill over the borders and just become full fledged crazy?

[quote][R226] seemingly got BPD and NPD mixed up.

What does it matter, really? People with both disorders deserve our sympathy for having difficult-to-treat conditions that they never asked to have—and at the same time, for the sake of one's own well-being, people with both disorders are best kept at the periphery of one's life, if it's necessary to deal with them at all.

R287 is not rage and R286 has no context. Who hasn't yelled while in their car?

r295 = the ghost of Princess Di

Diana is famous for throwing herself down a flight of stairs, while pregnant, in one of her meltdowns.

Some of these symptoms also sound similar to histrionic personality disorder, which also seems to affect mostly women and gay men...

There's no such thing as "borderline eyes." That's just pure bullshit.

"Borderline" does come from the old idea of there being a borderline between neurosis and psychosis, but it's an old-fashioned term--no one things that any more. They do need a better term for the condition.

Don't most people have anger and/or rage sitting right underneath a thin veneer of civility? I listen to a lot of prank call shows on Youtube, and the majority of "marks" are perfectly friendly and pleasant at first, but the minute the prank caller turns on them they do a complete 180 and become complete savages. It always amazes me how common this is. Here's a so-called "Christian" who suddenly turns vicious:

*"thinks," not "things"

Whatever r301. The guy was an asshole.

I don't think most people have rage boiling under the surface. Anger is different from rage - it has a direct cause. Rage is just simmering all the time waiting to erupt - you can see them looking for things to rage about - the stupidest thing - like upthread someone said getting rageful when your dog barks.

Anger is typically due to an understandable cause - not always, people can get defensive/confused, especially over tribal things like politics/religion -- but rage is like a permanent condition, a primal sort of thing. The baby or toddler reacting to not getting attention or exactly what he needs in the moment. Mature people don't do that. Cluster B (borderlines etc.) do.

I know it's been mentioned upthread, but I do think a certain number of BPD-diagnosed women are actually ASD whose "rages" have been interpreted through a gendered prism.

I may not really understand ASD to be talking about it -- but BPD scheme for attention. They target someone to "fall in love with" or hook up with, even a "friend", and then they start expecting that person to act like their parent (and they start acting like the needy toddler.) It's planned out, repeated over and over during their lives. My understanding is ASD isn't really that savvy about targeting and manipulating - they may rage out of confusion, not understanding how to cope with the neurotypical world in general, but they aren't so ... oh I don't know how to put it ... Machiavellian? Yeah, I'll settle for that descriptor, as I think it applies to all Cluster B, even borderline, though they often are a little more out of control than NPD or Anti-social PD.

ASD can develop unhealthy obsessions with other people r306 -- I could see the parallel between that and the BPD need to find someone to nurture them.

I work with a guy I suspect of being ASD, although he is high-functioning. Every few years he picks a new younger female colleague, develops an infatuation with her, and cultivates a friendship with her. I don't think it's sexual; but he clearly has few interpersonal boundaries in these "friendships."

If he were a woman, say, and exhibiting the same behavior, I think it may be interpreted as a borderline thing -- but I don't think it is.

So, they aren't so much looking for/needing a partner but craving a mother, R306? Or, someone they can use as such?

Girls, girls, you're all crazy and dysfunctional.

Autistics aren't sufficiently socially developed to manipulate other people emotionally. They are awkward, clumsy and inept in even basic, routine social interactions, let alone the emotionally complex territory of attempts to seduce someone into friendship or sex or romance. That's beyond their abilities. Borderlines on the other hand are often very astute manipulators. In the early stages of knowing someone they want to bond with, they can engage in mirroring, love bombing, false representations of their marital status, profession, you name it. Devious and cunning in ways someone on the spectrum can't be.

Borderlines have superhuman powers.

Yes R309 - that's what I think. They're looking for unconditional support and love - but they're not willing - not even able - to return it. I always go to the infant/toddler parallel. They're kind of stuck there, emotionally. It's sad. (but not sad enough to sacrifice yourself to one of them!)

and I think that's well said R311 and sums up the difference between ASD and BPD, though there are parallels if you don't pay close attention imo.

We BPD people can even pass NASA screening techniques and go aboard the Space Shuttle!

I worked with a woman once, and at some point, I could tell she had developed an intense jealousy of me. I think she heard someone compliment me on a project - oh something very minor. Like I say, they're just constantly scanning the environment for people to hate on (NPDs do this too).

She knew I'd had a physical recently - and what do I get in the mail? A notice from the state health department that I'd tested positive for syphilis!! So I go to local health department office to get a blood test (too embarrassed to go to my doctor), and it was negative. Later - weeks later! - she told me she did it "as a joke." Wasn't that funny? She said she had a whole pad of those notices and thought it was just such a fun thing to do...

And this bitch knew I had a blood test phobia because I'd foolishly shared that with her in a conversation. Don't tell these snakes anything - they'll use it!

R315. That sounds like a psychopath.

Good point R316. But as they say, all psychopaths are also narcissists. But not all narcissists are psychopaths. (yeah I know the thread is about borderlines but there's so much overlap it's ridiculous - NPD, according to my favorite expert Kernberg, is a "borderline condition" - they have the same borderline "personality organization" (or lack thereof lol).

I think what we're really talking about are levels of psychopathy: borderline is milder than narcissism, which is milder than full-blown psychopathy -- but every one of them has limited or no empathy (or only "cognitive empathy" and no capacity for actual "compassion" as someone upthread talked about)

With regard to empathy, it's been mentioned that borderlines tend to have cognitive empathy but lack emotional or affective empathy. People with ASD have emotional empathy but lack cognitive empathy.

Yesss! I've known ASDs who were really very kind, just awkward and easily confused in conversations. I think ASD has a wide spectrum of intellectual ability - and contrary to what people think, many of them have low IQs. (yes some are geniuses, at least in some narrow field, but it's far from common)

No R311 they are cunning in the ways of the Sith !

[quote]I think ASD has a wide spectrum of intellectual ability - and contrary to what people think, many of them have low IQs.

The vast majority of people on the autism spectrum are of average, low, or very low intelligence. A tiny percentage are above average intelligence - note, not 'genius', just 'above average'.

R321, are there geniuses who are on the spectrum?

If you google autism spectrum and genius, it seems a lot of people think they're related. I don't know if this is accurate, but this article (one of many) suggests these people were on the spectrum: Albert Einstein, Mozart, Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, Thomas Jefferson, Michelangelo, Hans Christian Andersen, Andy Warhol, and Emily Dickinson.

Einstein had a son so severely affected with autism that he was institutionalized most of his life. I think it's pretty well proven there's a genetic component to autism.

Anyway, I think all these studies at least prove the jury is still out and there 'may' be an association between autism and genius, particularly in a specific area, like math, physics, music, etc.

R236 is super astute here. The 'would be suiter' who stalked for a good 20 years. Always wondered what was wrong with this oddball. Like a Peter Pan man Boy. Was a fiend hoping I would come around. I never did. He used to try to interfere with guys I would date. Blowing up mailbox, shooting out car windows, peeping in Windows. He had a regular route. I had to slowly move apartments in the middle of the night when he was sleeping. Drive by every night. I'd hear the motor slow down. Knew the sound of his car. He did this to other men and women (he was bi). One woman had to leave the state. He'd last a few dates, it never lasted but he'd stay friends with you, secretly undermining all of your relationships out of jealousy. His last name was Kull. He introduced me to AA. He was in for 5 years but never grew. After I was in for 6 months I spiraled up so rapidly running circles around him. Not an alchie myself, a beer drinking weekend warrior who if triggered, became very nasty. Quitting drink was a breeze. I even took on a 100K/year bartending job after first 3 months. It kept me sober and reminded me what I left behind but me understanding towards problem customers netted me a huge following. I worked 8 shifts in 6 days. My dead off was Monday. Coma day, I'd coined I.

Poring over m.d. sibling's Merk Manual, I could never pinpoint Chris's problem. Chalked it up to Peter Pan Syndrome. R236 has cleared up this decades old riddle of have being one the autism spectrum. It fits like a glove. He had a first degree paternal cousin so autistic he was placed in an instition ,later group home. Solved!

This is the most educational thread I've ever had the pleasure of finding on the DL.

Many thanks to the brain rewiring poster for the epiphany as I will now stand up for myself, protect myself and so to those toxic users with mental problems and personality disorders

Hell no. Stay away. YOU are need going to use me, cause my trauma and alter the wiring in MY brain. Beat I, freak!

This thread is bookmarked ☆♡♧♢♤

You're welcome, R324. Some reading here if you're in the mood to deep dive.

R324 sounds at least as fucked up as any of the stalkers and disordered people he's complaining about.

I have it. I also think its what caused my bisexuality.

Please explain r327

If you really insist on having friends with some sort of neuropsychiatric disorder, you might want to know people with Williams Syndrome. People with WS are extremely friendly and empathetic, love music and have a thoroughly sunny disposition.

R325, my security won't let me view that link bc of troll traffic. 1st I've ever seen that. I'll try later out.

R326, no I dont. I come off as the completely stable person that I am. You're just a troll who brings nothing the the table, attempts to start trouble to spike adrenaline bc you have need hobbies to bring you joy. Your suffering fascinates me.

I've known 2 BPDs, both were labeled as such by psychiatrists and therapists. Both did a hospital stint over suicidal ideation. I told them they had a right to those records and for free. I helped them fight to get them copied and delivered by courier. Before that I ran down the BPD profile, both agreed and thanked me. There it was as their initial diagnosis in the psych ward report.

I figured since they now where aware it was easy to recognize and defeat. Lost on these two though. In their my 40s and alone. Their Instagram, FB and twitter accounts lay it all bare. Everyone keeps a healthy distance. Newer victims sucked in eventually fade out. Sad and predictable.

R329, those Willies are retarded though. They're not stable people who are at peace with their lives because they've hit the genetic jackpot at birth. The latter are always targeted by mistreatment of envious mentally ill be BPDs but especially at the hands of NPDs. NPDs, be it covert or classic cases are ruled and fueled by ENVY AND JEALOUSY. This how they choose their targets. People who don't posses traits or lives worthy of envy will never understand the experience of targeted individuals. Know that. They've never been targeted and/or are the envious ones doing the targeting .

Don't let anybody tell you differently

A lot of BPD stalking behaviors stem from extreme envy. Think Single White Female.

I own this thread, bitches.

R331, NPDs aren't just guided by envy. They seek narcissistic supply, i.e. anything that boosts their ego, such as attention and validation. They very often target the vulnerable.

Wow--you all know SO MUCH about psychiatric conditions!

I had no idea I was on a forum with so many highly educated and trained professional psychiatrists!

Are you related to someone who has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, or have you been targeted by one, R335? Some of us have, and we have had to understand them in order to recover and avoid being targeted again. It's a matter of survival.

How can one distinguish between a person with BPD and the posters who whine about being victimized by someone with BPD? Seems like one of the symptoms is making themselves a victim?

I am with you, r336.

I still don’t know what it is or if I could recognize it in someone.

I’ve seen all sorts of crazies in my day but I don’t know how to apply this and the other BPD threads to being able to see in the wild.

I didn't know what it was until I was targeted by one. The experience was absolute hell. Until you've been through it it is hard to understand just how demented these people are.

I won't use any official diagnostic terms or criteria, but in general, here's some traits that should serve as a red flag if you note more than one of them in an adult.

1. Incessantly seeks attention. They might claim to be a victim, or to suffer from an endlessly-changing list of medical conditions, or bloviate about their expertise in something/everything. When claiming victimhood, it's never enough to claim it about a single incident involving, say, job or race discrimination, or having an abusive partner. No, EVERY doctor/clinic/hospital routinely mistreats them; EVERY boss/partner/family member has abused them. Or they'll climb on the moral panic and/or social cause du jour.

Over the past few decades, these types would claim they were abducted and anally probed by extraterrestrials; they were victims of a secret gov't project, or of a satanic cult, or a pedophile ring; they had Multiple Personalities, of "gang stalkers", and now, some of them claim to be trans or genderqueer. Whatever it takes to get them the attention they crave.

2. Constantly seeks sympathy. Part of the victimhood schtick. Terrible things ALWAYS happen to them, and they ALWAYS have to share it with others. Think about it: ordinary adults tend to keep their troubles to themselves, and when we finally unburden ourselves, we share it with a loved one, close friend, or a professional. Beware of the acquaintance with the tales of woe - odds are very high that you're being played.

3. Prone to sudden mood swings. You can't win with anyone unable to or disinclined to regulate their emotions. Healthy adults rarely blow, and when they do, it's for good reason. Unstable people pop off at an eyeblink.

4. Rages. Normal healthy adults get angry, but they don't berserk. Stay away from the walking time bombs.

Basically, you enounter people exhibiting any of these behaviors, they are going to be a handful. Life is short, spend it with people who won't stress you out and make you miserable.

Remember the handy definition of neurosis versus a personality disorder: Neurotics make themselves miserable; people with personality disorders make everyone else miserable.

R333 she looks like Princess Diana

The saddest thing is people think men cant have BPD. It manifests in different ways. Men with BPDs are often just diagnosed as alcoholics with anger management issues. We love too strong and are extremely insecure. It not the same as being unconfident. I personally believe out side women who were raped, all of us suffering from this were extremely psychologically manipulated by one parent or the primary person who raised us. One must remember that with any mental disorder one's natural personality affects how it manifests as well as one's outlook on life. Think happy thoughts people. I practice eastern philosophy and it helps a great deal with maintaining balance in my life.

r341, No all of us are the same. Your negative one size fits all is very damaging stigma. Many of us have amazing things to offer in addition in relationships and humanity as a whole. Yes we have issues, but don't we all in a way.

R337, no one here is claiming to have been serially and continuously victimized (the way BPDs do). Most here have shared anecdotes and experiences about one or two people with this disorder. Most here have loved and do love these people.

They leave a wake of destruction.

R333 Alex Forest was a classic character that had BPD. If you want to know what BPD is, watch the movie (can't remember the name of the movie). David Chapman, Lennon's killer was said to have BPD. The guy who shot Reagan had BPD.

Could you spot one on a first date?

r5) "Indignant entitlement' ! This phrase nails this condition. Acquainted with one or two and have heard of many more from therapist friends. The worst one I know has her ex by the short hairs because she works in the legal field with contacts in law enforcement, we suspect she's used to be a professional escort in Vegas. Always ends up getting fired but finds another job because of her skill set. A friends son had the miserable luck to marry and have a child with her and his life has been a living hell since. She's had him surveilled, blackmailed, etc. She's now an obese mess but still has her talons sharp if she needs them. We pray for her death.

Here's the reason personality disorders are found in the psychiatric section of the Merck manual. Its why some here are confused:

Throughout life people w/personality disorders exhibit characteristic patterns of maladjustment in social, interpersonal relationships. In absence of environmental frustrations they dont show anxiety, mental or emotional symptoms. Think theyre behavior patterns are normal.

Maladaptive behaviors patterns are exaggerations of typical mechanisms used by most people. The patterns are rigid and they never learn that they dont work.

This why you can drive yourself crazy when researching personality disorders bc you can find a part of yourself in all of them.

for BORDERLINES, you'll see the fair weather friend 100% in all cases. No loyalty and theyll think nothing of throwing you aside for someone new or anyone else they can use at that moment in time. They'll crawl back to you when they need or want something you can offer them. They have no shame.

R334, if you have a personality disorder dont be lumping everyone into your camp. Yes, every soul has issues but that doesnt necessarily mean we're inflicting our issues on coworkers, friends and family. We're able to hold onto jobs and build solid long lasting relationships. Others brighten in our presence not recoil.

I'm so sick of these horror stories painting us to be sociopaths. All of the strories shared are BDP run amock--people compleley untreated, perhaps even self medicating with drugs/substances, and completely stressed out. Also some of these people don't sound like they have BPD; they sound like out right sociopaths. The commonality of BPD is extreme insecurity, unstable emotions, and no shame. BPD have no shame because our egos were constantly fucked with during childhood. We never learned coping mechanisms.

However we are not outright malicious by nature. That is another personality disorder.

351, agree. Sociopath, NPD and autism spectrum have no empathy. That's not a problem of the borderline. They usually are great pet parents. Their ability to empathize is completely normal.

I don't believe that's true, R352. See R237 where a study is reported that showed that brain scans in borderline patients showed that the areas of the brain associated with empathy were impaired.

A quote from it: “Our results showed that people with BPD traits had reduced activity in brain regions that support empathy,”

It's the lack of empathy that allows them to repeatedly hurt people they supposedly love or have a relationship with, whether lover, family member, friend, etc. They are so focused on their own pain that they either can't see the hurt they cause others - or they don't care. Borderlines hurt people and that's a major theme of this thread. A lot of us have either been hurt by them or we have watched people we know be hurt by them. I know I have.

They take out their pain by lashing out at others. If a person never does that, I'd question whether they had borderline, because unstable relationships is almost universal as a symptom. If your relationships are great but you're unhappy, hating yourself, and such, that would be more like depression, which doesn't hurt OTHERS, only yourself. That's a whole different thing than borderline, which does hurt other people, invariably, unless cured (or in the process of being cured by behavioral therapy or whatever).

I am borderline and I know that I am often extremely verbally abusive to my BF, and I don't know how to stop. When he presses my buttons by being irresponsible with money, I go berserk (yelling).

Okay R353 but they do have empathy when others hurt us. Not themselves but others. Its not as dead as an NPD or sociopath.

R354, borderline or not you're being played by a narc or sociopath. Dont defend yourself here. Anyone would lose it. Dont defend yourself ANYONE would be exasperated and lose their cool.

Im pretty stable but that spending shit you'd hear me the next town over. Its perfectly natural. Passive-aggressives who grew up in a home where they couldnt express anger try to guilt you into blowing. Sometimes they push your buttons so YOU will explode for them. That's how they get relief via driving you to lose it. Dont take the bait.

Classic borderlines idolize manager in charge at work while targeting a coworker who has what they feel rightfully belongs to them.

Hence the queeny homo who targets the office frau. How dare she have that 5 bedroom house, new SUV and family vacations. Loving supporting extended family and all the trappings. He starts his smear campaign, unsettling workplace morale. Thinking he has the manager he sucks up to in his pocket. Everyone realizes his petty shit and within 3 months he's bounced out the door. Then the hollow, instigating sponge shows up on your doorstep for free room and board. He doesnt believe you deserve your house you worked so hard for. You leave dishes in the sink overnight! He starts talking shit behind your back causing a riff as the mooching pitied guest. He resents you having it so good. Eventually he gets bounced without living quarters but luckily he schmoozed some scmuck he met on Grindr with a career and roof over his head. He'll repeat the same crap with new guy's family and friends until they get wise. A suicide attempt, hospital stay. Then onto next victims. Rinse and repeat.

Good luck, R354. I believe you should try behavioral therapy (or another therapy that works for you) and commit to it. It is a lot of work and the work never stops, but if you don't do it you will be destroying relationships with those you care about, all your life.

Good luck.

[quote]for BORDERLINES, you'll see the fair weather friend 100% in all cases. No loyalty and theyll think nothing of throwing you aside for someone new or anyone else they can use at that moment in time. They'll crawl back to you when they need or want something you can offer them. They have no shame.

This. Ha. I have joked that my BPD (we are currently on the outs because I told her some harsh truths) will be back when she needs money.......or a kidney.

You do hear some borderlines make a song and dance about how 'romantic' they are, the intensity of the various 'heartbreaks' and so on. The truth is that borderline's idea of 'love' is not how normal adults understand it. For borderlines, 'love' is a bizarre pathological game in which they crave what they think is intimacy- which they conceptualise in childish terms of 'perfect love' that would make a HS girl blush - but ironically, their ego boundaries are so weak that they can't actually deal psychologically with intimacy, and so as soon as they get it, they compulsively set about destroying it, aggressively, with jealousy, fights, lying, moodiness, withdrawal, even violence. Borderlines have an extremely weak and unstable sense of who they are, and they feel catastrophically overwhelmed by actual intimacy, as if their identity is being destroyed. So they fight back to distance themselves and to regain a sense of separateness / selfhood. Kernberg has written about this.

So for the borderline, 'love' is really a desperate bid to end their loneliness, without them actually being psychologically capable of being intimate with anyone else in non-abusive, mutually safe ways.

To those of you who have a loved one with BPD. You know they are expert stalkers right? They are reading everything you post on-line.....including this thread.

This thread has raised a lot of awareness. Thats a given.

Don't let the trauma rewire your brain

No, they're not, R361. Don't try and induce paranoia. (I've been stalked online, by the way.)

You are naive, R363. They are brilliant at it.

I'm not naive. I'm sure many do stalk, yes. But not all, and of those who do, they generally devalue and move on eventually.

OP here. Wanted to add something anecdotal about empathy.

The borderline I knew online, as I mentioned, had pending felony stalking charges against him. I never got the whole story (although his mugshot and details of arrest were easy to Google), but part of the story was that the guy he stalked had been falsely jailed as a result of the borderline's online impersonation/threatening emails.

What struck me was that the borderline had absolutely no capacity to acknowledge his actions has caused a lot of trouble, pain, etc, for another person. False arrest is serious -- but all the borderline could muster was, "It wasn't that bad. I didn't mean it. I shouldn't be in this much trouble."

He was one of the saddest people I've ever known, too -- but also lacked the ability to understand why. He would say things like, "I am so empty. I need a boyfriend."

Sounds like that episode in season 4 from Six Feet Under. Months later David goes to visit his sequestrator in jail. The guy is miserable. Super happy to see David (????) who he seemingly views as a "friend" (?????? the guy carjacked David and then tortured him). And he says to David, once he realises David doesn't see him as a friend: "I have no one here. No one comes to see me. You're the only one who's come to see me, and you hate me." (dialogue as I remember it) That's how sad the guy is. David never comes back.

R366 he needs therapy, and lots of self-discipline until the rest of his life.

My little sister's ex husband stalked her and OP's contributions to this thread has made me wonder if he might be BPD (and a fuckface) instead of bipolar (and a fuckface).

Do elaborate, r369.

in the case of my co-worker, he's a fat fuck and a troll.

They don't always stalk.

And they do have plenty of empathy. Sometimes too much.

They only lose empathy for people who have become their "enemy" sometimes through something very real that happened to them. My cousin had a guy spread rumors about her at work. I confirmed the truth with her work friends. Her being BPD, she went after him with abandon. Like planted drugs on him. She didn't give two fucks how this hurt him. He wronged her and she was out for blood.

A lot of BPD are indeed diagnosed with BD years before the BPD is established. In both cases mood regulators are indicated.

R352, I wonder what about BPDs makes you think they’re good pet parents.

My BPD doesn’t want anyone else to bond with “her” dogs and goes to unusual lengths to prevent it. And, as abusers do with their victims, she isolates them from other human relationships — but then resents the very dependence she forces on them (“he just can’t be alone, he’s always at my heels! Stop following me around, Fluffy!”). While the dogs are given the best physical treatment possible (food and grooming), they are emotionally abused.

There’s a very odd and hostile man in my building who does this, too. I don’t know if he’s BPD, but he’s definitely “off”.

I’d never say these people don’t love their animals, and they don’t hit them, but there’s some weird co-dependent control shit going on. If it were a child, people wouldn’t think it was okay.

But again, this is just an observation of one or two people. Not saying all BPDs are like this.

R339, I think the main thing to look out for in interpersonal relations is a lack of connection to reality on the part of the person with the disorder that manifests itself in particular ways. You will be gaslighted, undermined subtly, blamed for things that have nothing to do with you, walk on eggshells and feel anxious and stressed all the time. You may be represented as crazy to others. The traits in R341 will often appear as well (look out for rage especially) but I think this is the defining one.

There's a lot of overlap with NPD here. Some behavior is the same but the fear of abandonment is exclusive to bPD. BPD fear being left alone. NPD fears loss of supply. Self harm is another factor. NPD fantasizes great beauty, power and wealth.

That reminds me of my mother R374. I was an only child and had cousins in town, but she never let me meet them and never let me play outside. But I remember her yelling at me, so so many times, before I was old enough for school, 'GET OUT FROM UNDER ME!!!!!' And she would often slap my face or thigh (I can still imagine the stinging feeling of the slaps - and sometimes there would be parallel stripes on my face from her long fingernails.) I would have been 4 or 5 years old - maybe younger.

It never occurred to her to arrange a play date; I never had a birthday party; but she went out several nights a week to dance (this was the 60s when there were big fancy hotels with orchestras) - her closet was full of fancy dresses and matching shoes and purses that I used to play with, only to get yelled at. And she'd have boyfriends over and make me stay in the bedroom with nothing but an AM radio to entertain me -- set to "adult easy listening." I still cringe when I hear Sinatra or Eydie Gorme like shit. god I can't wait for her to die - I feel like I have to stay in contact (slightly) because she's old, but she was a monster not a mom.

However!! when I'd get sick she'd suddenly act very supportive, worried and loving. She seemed to revel in that - so people could say she had empathy. She did - sometimes. But she didn't really see me as a human -- or she was too stupid to know what normal little kids might need. In any case, her social life was great - mine was nonexistant - and I guess she just never noticed. I could have been a potted plant (when I wasn't sick)

We need to factor in the covert narcissist to make the distinction here. This IS really important. They fly under the radar posing as BpD and other illnesses

R377, glad you got to adulthood. I'm sure you're glad too.

I'm of a different generation, but R377's mother could as well be mine. I would elaborate, but it infuriates me to think of everything done to me and my brother.

Most of my childhood was spent in a room alone with no distraction except a piece of paper and a pencil (if I was lucky) and instructions not to make any noise.

As luck / survival skills would have it, I am very skilled at live drawing and sketches in general. Of course waiting and keeping quiet in boring circumstances are things I do very well, to this day.

Better link on introverted narcissist

Good link, R382. That's my father to a tee. It gave me chills to read it.

Male or female 377 & on

THIS is the book to rewire. Written by fellow sufferer it is a way to new life.

best ever. Ive read them all, joined every blog and forum.

Had friend with Prime order new copy for just a dollar more.

Ready to go out in the world again. Being the person i was meant to be and deserve to be.

Now armed with the epiphany by R81, i refuse to let anyone mistreat me, traumatize me and rewire my brain. Energy feels like I'm on meth, adderral and B12. As the weather cools off, i plan on having the best Autumn ever. Motivated like in in my twenties. Might start a thread here when I'm finished with this gem.

I'm just over here dealing with my 32 year old infantile daughter again today. Well, pretty much all day every day. For years. Do you want to know the worst part? When she's doing her usual "you are gonna make me kill myself" victim song and dance, there are times, now more frequent than not, when inside I just say to myself "then do it. " Unless you have ever been held hostage in their bizarre unpredictable universe of toxic anger and blame, you will never ever understand. They are to be pitied yes, but at a distance. Waaaaaaaaay far away.

R381, if you were punished did you have to go and pull weeds? Do anything, like certain chores? I had an ex like this. Lazy. Fretted to take out the garbage, clean and do household repairs. He too was left to draw alone. His brain was wired to think of life's basic chores as punishment. So he became a lazy slob no one would want. Is obsessed with comic artists. Passive-aggressive as fuck because he wasnt allowed to raise his voice or show anger. Meanwhile his mother was a ranting vulgar bipolar mess with psychotic features. She'd only acknowledge him if he sulked around. He would try this with me and I'd just ignore him saying i wasnt his mother. He was a covert narc and the passive-aggressive tactics shot out my nerves. He'd think nothing of displacing his anger towards me onto my pets. Like a light switch, i was done.

He needed rewiring via brain surgery. I wiped my hands and short circuited my brain from that 8 year long relationship.

3 years later, im clawing my way back. The book above is rebuilding me as is this thread and all the great DL members who offer their plush support. We may clash on other thread subjects but here we've found a support group that is actually achieving a needed service. Thank you everyone. Hope we keep it going into Part 2

XOX

Borderline women become stalkers.

r387 = Dan Gallagher

The stalking thing i did notice in the case of a straight borderline woman. Diagnosed. Suicide attempt, hospital stay at South Oaks. The other case was a gay male. Diagnosed, hospital stay. I describe him @ R357.

I have a tale of this classic borderline case starting 15 years ago to about a year ago. I've stopped checking her SM accounts. Work associate and sometime friend. So her late 20s to now early 40s and i intended to write installments here for the victims of borderlines and a warning tale of woe for borderlines. Borderlines, when I'm done with this tale you will be motivated to rewire and reprogram yourself and put the kibosh on this life ruining affliction. Sure, it'll take work but anything worth having takes work. All you need to acknowledge is where it stems from and recognize it. How and why it developed. 3/4 of your battle is done. You dont need a therapist and lots of money. Everything you need is online. Search for books and forums ONLY by other borderlines. Has to be a fellow sufferer who walked the walk. Just make that one decision. First identify your upbringing and family dynamic. This is your homework assignment. Your starting point. Identify your parents' traits, their relationship, family dynamics and where and how you fit in there. Can't skip this step. It is your base in your rebuild. No half-assing here. Search for other's experience that parallels yours. You'll find it. As you start your reprogramming you will need to pull out and see yourself as the older version of your young clone you reproduced. Not talking to your younger self but a fresh slate clone you are advocating for. It's imperative you take this approach. This isn't brain surgery or rocket science. It can be done. The human spirit is the most resilient entity the planet has ever known. Where there's a will, there's a way. Go easy on yourself. Your not a psychopathic serial killer for Christ's sake!

Get a blood panel from an endocrinologist. Check thyroid, hormone levels and vitamin deficiencies. Any psych meds you may need, avoid psychiatrists. Theyre usually crazy themselves, arrogant godlike mentality. Instead find a psychiatric nurse practitioner working in a counseling group for all of your prescriptions. Don't be afraid to use meds in your arsenal. You're fighting a battle but you need not suffer on this journey. Let yourself suffer and you'll lose your motivation. The rewards will come quickly to keep you on track. Higher self esteem will be a byproduct you wont even realize taking hold. Use every tool you can. Dont worry if it seems like a crutch. Afterall, ask yourself what a crutch is.

A crutch is a temporary aid you employ when you're injured.

Get to it, share your experiences and keep this thread going into part 2, 3 and beyond.

I'll share installments of the two tragic borderlines above during the days ahead.

I'll refer to the woman as "Atilliette" The man as "Paulie"

BBL

I am recovering from losing my job to a BPD boss. She idealized me at first. No one liked her. But she "bonded" with me. As soon as I ran afoul of her favorite person at work and called her on it (I was harassed due to my sexuality) she turned on me hard. She drove me to great depression to where I had to take FMLA time off work. Then she played passive-aggressive with me while I was off all the while dropping hints I would not be welcomed back at work. She got everyone at work to turn on me. I was ghosted by everyone except for a very few. I have never been treated this way. I could have fought to return to my job but I quit before she had the pleasure of firing me or finding something bogus to fire me.

One more thing before I hit the road and take care of life. Victims of borderlines may wonder why they got sucked in initially and stayed throughout all of the craziness. I know why i stuck it out for years and while it's not worth our mental health and trauma to our brains..I've got to give credit where credit is due. Borderlines dont even have to work at the god given trait of making you laugh so hard you almost pee your pants.

The times in my life that i've laughed the hardest, doubled over, cant speak or breathe it's been at the hands of a borderline. The doozies they come up with especially when they're in a frustrated rage, I'm still laughing years later. So there are some cherished memories to offset the pain. Helps me partially forgive myself for allowing their mistreatment.

See ya later kids

Is it symptomatic of gay males with BPD to transform into an ABW when angry?

What's ABW?

When does BPD start manifesting? Asking for a teacher friend.

ABW = Angry black woman

I recently met with a nutritionist who was so casually inappropriate that I know the full names of three of her ex boyfriends, all faded, minor celebrities (I don't even know the full names of my friends ex-Bf's). I listened to so much shit about her family dynamics and money problems that I thought that surely we were becoming friends. So I carved out air time for myself to talk about a big thing in my life, which is not easy to disclose. Over the last thirty years, I have had many inappropriate and hurtful responses to this news, but hers was something I viscerally felt to be the cruelest response of all, that made me cut the meeting short and go home and cry. I told her that when I was 18, in the early bigoted 1990s, my married closeted father died of AIDS in a very conservative city. Her entire response: she cut me off mid sentence and said "is this a nutrition question?" And tapped with her pen on a bunch of nutrition brochures. She didn't even have the decency to say "sorry to hear that: is this a nutrition question."

I can't tell you how shocked and hurt I was. I was in physical pain I as so hurt to be rejected and uninvalidated so aggressively. This and a number of other things lead me to realize that she is NPD. Zero empathy,

Attilette came from a working class family on Long Island's south shore. A mixed neighborhood on lined saltbox type cape cod homes. Only child of second marriage parents. Dad a drunk, mom a cleaning woman. Many separations due to dad's drinking and mother's tough talking goading. Mom lost custody to 2 sons from former marriage. Cops always at home for domestic assaults. Drunken dad would wake up sleeping child to confide in her starting when she was 5 years old. See what your mother makes me do? he'd say. Mom and daughter escape to Arizona. Father finally woos them back but they have to live in unfinished basement and crap into a bucket because he rented out the house to support his drinking problem. Finally dad spends an entire year in a mental hospital drying out. Mom starts cleaning houses to make ends meet. Eventually they all scrape by and make it work. Renting out the top attic. Dad finds a job in construction. His two kids from former marriage landed safely with a decent stepdad.

None of the 4 kids from previous relationships ended up with issues, lest borderline.

That's the background of our tragic, classic borderline. Remember this for the next installment.

Glad you got out of there, R396. I've learned never to disclose, except to very trusted people that I've known for a long time.

Tip 1. Don't share any personal information. Don't volunteer details about your life or your feelings. Everything in your world is perfectly OK, normal and uneventful.

This actually works with everybody, because you never know. It's like learning to cross the street. And awkward silences are never awkward, except possibly for them - which is a good thing.

R396, would have slapped that junkie so hard her cheek would have split open from the force, requiring 60 stitches.

Wow, R396, what an asshole! I wish you could have turned it around on her and said, "I'm sorry, I thought that since you were being unprofessional and inappropriate by oversharing your boyfriend drama and money woes, I could share some of my personal background as well. Won't happen again." Then you should have reported her to whatever governing body licenses nutritionists.

It's so tempting to fight back with these kinds of people but risky. They love a good fight and they try to hit back harder for every smack they receive. And having been brought up by one, they'll hold on to a grudge for years and strike when the opportunity arises, even decades later. My mother was jealous of her siblings, especially her only sister, and managed to talk my meek grandmother into leaving her children out of the will (except my mother). I was there when it happened, at about age 12, and I've never seen my mother so gleeful when she finally talked her into it. And one of the siblings had four children and was in pretty dire need.

R396, I'm so sorry you had to deal with someone.

My big BPD experience was with a semi-friend whom I (fortunately) never took too seriously. But she did do--what I now realize is typical with these people--the classic "problem dumping" on me, and would say airily, "When we figure out all of my problems, we can work on yours." Of course, we never did figure out all of her problems because there were always new ones springing up, of small significance, but overwhelming drama.

I explained to her two or three times that I wasn't happy with the way our friendship worked. She would responded vehemently.

Then I ghosted her. She called me every week--leaving long voicemails about how she didn't know if something had "happened" to me or if it was just that I "never wanted to talk to her again"--for about six months; then once a month for maybe a year after that. I would send her a short email from time to time that said, "Got your message. Just busy at work. Please send an email if you like."

The end.

(I did have narcissist parents, though.)

So, let me get this straight, r396. You're meeting with someone for the first time, in what's supposedly a professional context, when she proceeds to unload a shit-ton of personal problems and drama. You recognize that this is inappropriate. But instead of deciding to, say, listen until you grow bored or uncomfortable and then gently guide her back to the topic of the meeting, or cut short the meeting because she's clearly too messy to get involved with, you quickly decide that this inappropriate stranger—with whom you were supposed to be having a dry, professional discussion of nutrition—wants to be your new best friend, and you determine that the best way to react to that is by sharing a deeply painful and personal piece of your own history, to which others have often reacted hurtfully in the past? Okay .......

This thread has been quite illuminating as to how people become "victims" of the personality disordered, even when the latter aren't family members, employers, or somebody else whom it's difficult to escape or keep at arm's length.

Wait! It's me R402.

R396, my BPD that I told the story about above is also some kind of bullshit nutritionist.

How funny.

That's horrible, R401. And totally unsurprising coming from those people.

I love R402's attitude.

Fuck off, R403.

[R403] No, you cunt. We had been meeting for about two months by then but the over sharing from her started meeting one. Thank you from the other responses from people. Part of me was wondering if somehow her officious response was actually correct. At the time, I felt deeply humiliated and extremely hurt.

R408, do you happen to live in CA?

R406, thanks!

R402 no, I don't even live in USA

I am not exaggerating when I say that I have spent hundreds of thousands of hours listening to the dramatic stories of my borderline friend. She is nothing if not fascinating, at least for a couple of hours every three weeks. The thing is, she wants more more more and when we get together she talks non-stop about the same stuff for up 5 hours until I finally can get away. It is always about her. I am allowed maybe 3 minutes tops about myself. My instinct has been to hold back anything too personal but over the years she has probably gotten to know my weaknesses. Many comments made above about the hunger and manipulations of BPD people fit her to a T. Her husband is a mess. I suspect her end game is to drive him into an early grave so she can take total ownership of their house and money. He seems to be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome---he is seeing her therapist to learn "how to be more of a man" as she put it. I won't recount the damage she has done to my career. It has taken me far too long to admit that I have also been under her spell because she is so entertaining and glamorous when she wants to turn it on. And a venomous snake when she lets her mask slip. Whenever she is cruel I just withdraw from our friendship and distance myself for a few months. But lately I have been wondering what the hell I get from allowing her to monopolize my time in the way she has done. And no surprise, she goes from friend to friend, exhausting each one in turn then cycling around and starting again.

Even tradesmen are blacklisting her because she guilts them into putting vastly more effort and time into a job than anyone could reasonably be asked to do. And she has just convinced her doctor to give her a handicapped parking sticker although she can walk perfectly well. Her maladies are always much more than anyone elses serious illnesses. Oh, listening to her ad nauseum has satisfied my curiosity about her for the next million years. I think this thread has helped me see that. It's ovah!

R411 I enjoyed reading that. Maybe you are the interesting person, not her.

I am really confused by something. Narcissists are supposed to be less than 5 percent of the population, but for a few yrs almost everyone I meet seems to be one. At least all the major characters in my life. No one ever asks me a single question about myself no matter how trivial from where are you from to do you have a pet, even after I have discussed the other person for hrs asking many questions. There ratio in conversion is like 25 questions versus zero. I read a lot, I love movies, I teach, I love animals. I can make conversation just fine, but no one will let me. How can you have a life with 75 percent narcissists in it? My in laws have never asked me a single question about myself of any kind in 25 yrs, which is unreal since you would think they would want to know something about the person married to their son, like what did they study in college or what city are they from. Can you be a magnet for these people?

That sounds more like prejudice than narcissism R412.

I agree that narcissism is rampant. I do the same as you R412. I ask people a lot of questions---how their kids are, if their sick parent is on the mend, how that home improvement project is going, etc. But I am genuinely interested in people. Maybe no one asks us questions because we are so busy interrogating them? Or maybe we give off a vibe like we don't want to share much about ourselves. In any case, you could certainly share your interests with people without being asked. Just launch into a story about your pets or travels. Lord know everyone else does it.

R413 what kind of prejudice? What do you mean?

R414 you are right, I could just tell something, but unsolicited, it feels like exhibitionism somehow. It feels degrading.

R411, my little brother is a little bit like that. He is exhausting and I've left him to his own devices for a while now. Love him to bits but he's just too annoying with his endless drama. Not sure he's BPD though (or maybe not with me), he is annoying though and extremely high maintenance.

That's interesting, R412. My in laws have been doing the same, which I find really odd since I've travelled extensively, have lived in 3 different countries, have a wide range of interests - yet all they talk about is the minutiae of their neighbours and relatives lives.

However, it does feel more like they don't know what to make of this person who is far more educated than they are. They do ask for my opinion when something is troubling them. I just don't feel like they would like to have a real conversation about my own interests for fear of sounding "stupid". They're nice people though, so I don't mind, though it was bizarre at first that they would ask me so little about myself. They know next to nothing about my life, but that's ok.

Again, this is OT. They are far from being BPD, both of them. They are nice people.

I can so relate to you R411. VERY similar situation. At first I was ok with all the behavior because I took it as who they were. Her neediness fed right into my desire to help people. For a while I though I was. Taking her to fake DR. appointments, being her hear about her dating failures, guiding her about inappropriate behavior as an adult. She was glamorous, beautiful, rich so I guess I got caught up watching how that world really works in real life. Like being a secondary cast member on a Real Housewives show. It was entertaining in a way but I was worn out after every visit with her. It blew up and we parted ways a few months ago but now she is asking to rekindle the friendship.

She was sort of like a lost pet who needed someone to take care of here but damage and not ever capable of returning the favor. She wasn't evil though, she treated people with respect but it was still all about her. She knows almost nothing about my personal life except for what I volunteered. She does seem to remember details if I talk about it. But she never ask, normal things like where did you grow up, where did you go to school, do you have brothers or sisters etc. Guess I am OK with that, I miss her so maybe with more boundaries this time. I sort of think of her as a sick family member, but one that I like.

I am kind of on the fence after reading all this. My life is so calm now. Some of the post here have been really insightful and totally unexpected.

R412, are you in academia?

(Maybe why you are surrounded by narcissists.)

A few years back, a new coworker arrived. He was the nicest, warmest, calmest guy in the world. He said that he had recently been diagnosed as bipolar and had begun taking medication a few months prior. I didn't believe it. Until a few months later when he stopped taking his medication. Wow.

Sometimes you'd have to give him some bad news, for example, that a customer was complaining about having difficulty reaching him. He then assumed that you relished sharing this criticism with him. So he would rant and rave at you at full volume for a good half hour or so, even in front of co-workers. Later, his boss would come in and apologize for the guy's behavior.

From time to time, he'd calm down, when his family persuaded him to go back on the meds. He'd become likable again, but he'd burned too many bridges with his temper in the past, and people were leery of spending any time around him.

I don't think there's a good way to know how any BPD, NPD and psychopaths there are. I've seen estimates from 1% to 15% or even 20% of the population. Robert Hare, who worked with prison populations, estimated that 4% of the population is a psychopath. But that wouldn't include the other personality disorders. A lot of fucked up people out there. I guess I can see why - it's an evolutionary advantage. When you have no qualms about cheating people, gaslighting people, stealing, killing, etc. well, the traits are gonna get passed on.

I don't think a relative of mine has BPD but some of the descriptions here ring a bell. A history of really sudden mood swings, excessive anger that can seem to come out of nowhere, spent years picking me up and putting me down like a toy - not speaking to me for months and then we'd be friends again. She seems to compartmentalise people - so if she wasn't talking to me she'd be all about her boyfriend, who she has, in the past also rejected for minor or spurious reasons. Sometimes it has definitely felt like she really wanted an argument with me so she'd push and push and push until she got one. She has taken disagreement as a personal rejection and seemed to respond quite irrationally - she wouldn't speak to me for months because I disagreed with her on a very minor matter that had nothing to do with her life but was somewhat related to mine - she hung up the phone and cut off all contact (again). I think there's a lot going on under the surface but her behaviour and responses over the years have been really unpredictable - it has often felt like two different people and you don't know which one you're going to get.

Well R423, if it walks like a duck...

BPDs are like wounded animals. They need and waif for help but they’ll bite your hand off at one point or another.

I know R424, writing all that out there does seem to be a lot of overlap, but there are also lots of attributes that I've seen described that she doesn't have - I suppose it could manifest differently and to different degrees in different people and/or the attributes she does have could be traceable to a separate mental health issue she has, whose visible effects might mirror those elements of BPD.

Either way I have learned not to trust her, or rather not to trust her responses to me. The 'charming' version that I saw in the past wasn't faked so much as a very particular part of her, but it wasn't sustainable and eventually I was always rejected - I've gained a lot of emotional distance over the last few years and am in a better place myself with it now - I've just learned to expect nothing really and more okay with that than I ever thought I could be in the past.

R423, I have lived every bit of your post with my BPD relative. Cuts off all contact due to minor slights, goads and pushes buttons to get the reaction she wants so she can feel justified in flying into a rage, finding others (who haven't figured it out yet) to manipulate and use. Moodiness and irrational anger. Playing the perpetual victim. It's all very text book BPD.

r423, BPD almost have multiple personalities except they don't hear voices and remember stuff. Thats how emotionally scarred they are. They act different based on what group is around; but they cannot control it. Its become a natural response to trauma.

Reading about the traits, I would say trump fits BPD very nicely.

r429, I doubt Trump has BPD. Maybe narcissistic personality disorder. I doubt anyone with BPD could possess the emotional temperament needed to run for president.

Tre45onous tRump's emotional temperament is that of a malignant narcissist. He runs hot and cold and frequently rages and cuts people out of his life. His ego is quite fragile and he seeks validation eternally. He seems incapable of regulating his emotions. I could see him having both BPD and NPD.

trump may not have some of the extreme, off the wall traits of some.. but, as R431 pointed out in his comment, there is enough for him to qualify. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, though.

Just because I had this in my notes from an abnormal psych class, in case anyone's interested (Kernberg is one of several international experts on personality disorders):

Otto Kernberg’s description of the pathological narcissistic individual centers around a set of paradoxes: self-inflation existing alongside a limitless need for praise, a charming and engaging surface covering a ruthless interior, and a persona of self-sufficiency defending against underlying feelings of intense envy.

For Kernberg, the diagnosis of the narcissistic character also depends on the quality of the person’s object relations and the pattern of his or her intrapsychic defenses. Narcissistic individuals experience their relationships with others as exploitative and parasitic. They divide the world between those who contain something that they can extract and those who do not. They distinguish between extraordinary people on the one hand - in association with whom narcissistic individuals experience a sense of greatness themselves - and mediocre or worthless people on the other. Narcissistic individuals idealize the former and are contemptuous of the latter. Yet those they idealize they also fear, as they project onto them their own exploitative wishes and experience them as potentially attacking and coercive. They thus are unable to rely on any object and fear dependence on another person, rendering all their object relations empty and dissatisfying.

Like the borderline character, Kernberg’s narcissistic individual uses primitive defenses of devaluation, projective identification, omnipotence, and primitive idealization in his or her efforts to preserve self-esteem and self-coherence and to combat the intense feelings of envy and rage that threaten to undermine them. The narcissistic individual is distinguished from the borderline individual by his or her sense of object constancy, better impulse control, and better social and professional functioning, although these too may be fragile and hollow beneath a surface of apparent solidity. Although splitting as a defense is found in narcissistic pathology, its use is less prominent than in borderline pathology.

The grandiose self further differentiates the pathological narcissist from the borderline personality. In Kernberg’s theory, the grandiose self represents a pathological fusion of the ideal self, the ideal object, and the real self. It is a defensive structure designed to maintain self-admiration and avoid dependence on any real object by effectively eliminating a need for it from intrapsychic life. Although often toxic in its effects on interpersonal relationships, the grandiose self serves to maintain the narcissist’s otherwise tenuously coherent sense of self.

R433, thank you for your post. Interesting.

It's sort of fascinating that we have such precise terms and definitions for these things now. Before Freud (I guess), people must have thought, "Damn, that woman/guy is odd," without having a community of people who had a name for it and knew what it was.

LMAO @ the BPD bitch bragging about being an on-line stalker, saying they're "brilliant". No, cunt, you're genetic trash without a life of your own. DIAGF

Retard @ R435. I am not BPD. One of my family members is. She's a brilliant stalker. I've seen it in action.

My mistake, R436. But there's nothing "brilliant" about stalking, only psychotic. Hope she gets the help she desperately needs.

Some on here seem to think that they are better because they don't suffer from mental health issues. Who are you? We all have problems. Would you make fun a physically handicap person or child with down syndrome? Why do that here?

R438, not sure I’d classify myself as “better”. I have been damaged by my BPD mother. We’re just fucked up in a different way.

Sometimes I think I don't have BDP but maybe sensitive personality type. I know for sure my mum has it and has drove me crazy throughout the years.

Sounds like deplorables at a Trump rally.

[quote]Would you make fun a physically handicap person or child with down syndrome?

They don't tend to wreak other people's lives with rages, lies, cheating, aggression, or unreasonable, childish demands on other people's time, sympathy, money, housing, etc.

Grow up. Stop trying to punish others for their reasonable expectation that you start behaving as the adult that you are.

Cluster B personality disorders (see Mayo Clinic link) hurt other people. It's a key characteristic, in one way or another, of all of them. Borderline, Narcissistic, Antisocial, etc.

The first step in protecting yourself from one is to identify him or her. And people have the right to not be hurt by others - and to have boundaries that protect themselves. So as R442 said, it's a whole different situation than most other mental illnesses. And anyway, people make fun of everybody - yes, even people with Down Syndrome, autism, physical handicaps... But what Cluster B's is a whole life of doing things like that and worse (than making fun of people.) They use, abuse, suck your life out, sometimes become violent...

If the sufferers themselves ever show any improvement, they'd just as feel sorry for hurting people so much as they hurt themselves (and in many case, much much more), instead of bemoaning being "made fun of" for their hurtful cruel ways.

* my last sentence is so screwed up - sorry. It should have said: "If the NPD sufferers showed any improvement, they'd feel just as sorry for hurting other people so much, as they feel sorry for hurting themselves..." well, it's still clumsy but not quite as incoherent (I hope.)

I will state findings throughout my own experience and those of professionals in the field.

1. Users and fair weather friends

2. This is important: THEY'RE NEVER BEAUTIFUL AND BORDELINE (HA!) ATTRACTIVE AT BEST.

3. You'll never meet a borderline beauty. That's their problem with flucating self of sense and identity.

Keep in mind if you compliment a borderline on anything. Goes straight to their heads. Unlike a normal person who may or may not take a compliment well, the borderline takes the compliment or flattery as meaning the complimentary person lacks those traits themselves and is looking up to them out of their own lack.

It's so difficult to refrain from telling the borderline that they pale in comparison. Just say nothing when they use your compliment out of pity against you.

Let it go. You'll be bewildered but say nothing.. don't challenge them.

Borderlines stalk. Beauties get stalked.

R438, you got owed by R442, you envious, damaged meh looking FREAK!

Professionals say borderlines are never beautiful? That sounds odd to me. A lot of people believe (as I do) that Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana were borderlines. I think they were both beautiful. JMHO.

In a way, I think it's at least slightly more likely that a beautiful person would be either borderline or narcissistic. In the case of a borderline, they're more likely to be valued (or even abused) because of their beauty instead of their good nature, good behavior, etc. They are rewarded for bad behavior by having people still want them, because they're beautiful.

This goes double for narcissists. Of course they look in the mirror and think they're better than everybody else, simply because of how they look, and the world tends to treat them as if they are in fact better. I think it may even be a cause of their narcissism - and other causes might be prodigy like talent in athletics or art, etc.

R446, oh wow, my SIL does exactly that! Although she’s not BPD; if anything, she has narcissistic tendencies.

She reminds me of the people who respond to the slightest criticism of Meghan Markle with “you’re just jealous that she married a prince and you never ever will” You can’t make them understand that, REALLY, you’re not jealous.

If I compliment her [insert whatever here] , she gloats and thinks I covet it. If I wanted [whatever], I’d have one. But go ahead and think that if it gets you what you need...

R449, mixing it up with bipolar mood disorder. Diana was homely. It effects character traits.

never met a good looking borderline. If they were beautiful the last thing they'd be it borderline.

I still beg to differ, R451. I think bipolar is more a chemical imbalance in the brain, and therefore, they would more likely not be any more beautiful than any other group of people. But I think borderline (and narcissism) may well, in part, be CAUSED by beauty or some other special trait that made people treat them differently - talent, athletic prowess, etc.

BTW, there's a lot of overlap between borderlines and narcissists - they have a similar personality organization issue (or rather dis-organization issue - they both have "borderline personality" development, according to Otto Kernberg, expert/professor at Columbia - he might be retired by now but he's one of the foremost authorities). There are a lot of borderline actresses, Angelina Jolie is another one (if not a fullblown narcissist) - many other examples. Ugly women wouldn't get away with it - nobody would put up with their crap.

Here's a set of people who agree with me (linked) and here's a quote from the first one at the link:

"Why is it so many people with BPD are beautiful? I got hospitalized last summer and spent a couple days in a psych ward and then had to go to an outpatient support group for about a month after I was released. While I was in the hospital, I noticed that of the women there who had attempted suicide, all of them were drop dead gorgeous, every single one of them. They were all diagnosed borderline and whether they were 18 years old or 45 years old, they were all sexy vixens..."

I know a beautiful borderline. She's a dancer, and stunning. God help her boyfriends.

I thought it was accepted that borderlines usually are beautiful. (I mean, that's typically the reason people don't notice how crazy there are. They are dragged in unawares by their looks.)

My borderline that I wrote about--the one that none of us took seriously--was gorgeous.

Then they've been misdiagnosed BpDs average at best. But then again, i'm above average in looks and just about everythi ng else.

R466 I suffer from BPD and I lash out whenever anyone gives me a compliment. In graduate school a professor praised my writing and I lashed out at her in an insane way. I still feel bad about it.

Most BPD get intensely insecure when the compliments wear off. Every relationship is like a drug to us. Normal people are able to balance change, and that over time one's specialness wears off. BPDs aren't able to handle that; the relationship needs to keep feeding our high. BPDs can't handle not being regarded in the utmost respect.

Well there you go R456. It is disturbing to be the object of such a lashing out. My BPD friend, who can be quite delightful, has occasionally lashed out at me. I avoid her for a few weeks when that happens. And even in middle age she is attractive. Maybe she could be described more as 'handsome.' Back in the day she was a penthouse pet. She certainly got away with all sorts of shit back then.

The BPD women I know were all raped as children/teenagers. They were all very attractive, I think their beauty made them into targets for rapists and molesters.

In my circle of family and friends, I am a BPD celebrity. Yes, everything IS right/wrong, black/white, yes or no, period. This approach to life, and all its ambiguous bullshit, prevents a lot of unnecessary questions and saves everybody a lot of time.

Any questions? I didn't think so.

r460, what do you mean. Can you please share with me? And i hope you don't come on to this very important topic to troll.

R467 Growing up in an invalidating environment is believed to be the source of BPD in many. I know it is for me.

R458 Besides her compliments, my professor went out of her way to be nice to me. I repeatedly dismissed things I said as "stupid" in seminars and she sent me an email telling me I wasn't stupid. I ignored it and when I ran into her on campus days later, she asked me all concerned if I had read it.

I suck so much.

I think some of you are confusing BPD and HPD.

The psychologist’s guide to diagnosing this personality disorder, as well as other emotional and mental illnesses, the current version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV-TR) defines histrionic personality disorder as: ‘A pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention-seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention Interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior Displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self Has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion Is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

These traits are also easily remembered by incorporation into the mnemonic “PRAISEME”: Provocative (or seductive) behavior Relationships are considered more intimate than they actually are Attention-seeking Influenced easily Speech (style) wants to impress; lacks detail Emotional liability; shallowness Make-up; physical appearance is used to draw attention to self Exaggerated emotions; theatrical2,4

R457, specialness gets magnified with age in a healthy adult. That nosejob and lift at 50 and beyond gives a new lease on life. You'll always turn heads if you've got the basic bone structure. Now more than ever despite age.

life is a process

R463 exactly The HPD IS actually attractive. So logical. Not BPDs, they know deep inside they're not beautiful, hence the instability in self and angst.

I have an "associate" that has BPD. Acutely intellectual, but along with that almost an arrogant anger that is cued 24/7 to the rest of society, for what I don't know. This individual quickly glommed on to me in our shared business interests which was fine while we working on mutual projects. I noticed right away he would sing muy praises to others and right back to me out of proportion to reality. But then something bizarre started happening: he became aggressively hostile at the slightest change. If my assistant emailed to re-schedule a meeting, or I was unavailable to meet for drinks on a moment's notice I would inevitably get dramatic voice-mails that he was cancelling all ties with our business, we would hear from his associates he was "done". I literally didn't know what the f*ck was going on. Later, he would come crawling back with some shitty excuse about being stressed at his wife. But I didnt trust that. It was only by chance my brother showed me an article in one of those popular psych mags after hearing me bitch about this guy about personality disorders. Wow- what a wakeup call. I felt like an idiot. It was only with luck and a skillful lawyer that I was able to extricate myself. I swear I'm giving all future associates a psych profile.

[quote]If I compliment her [insert whatever here] , she gloats and thinks I covet it. If I wanted [whatever], I’d have one. But go ahead and think that if it gets you what you need...

They project....a lot. They are extremely envious people themselves, so they assume others are as well. Their obsessive envy is at the root of their trademark stalking behavior. Remember the movie "Single White Female"? The psycho villain in that film was a classic BPD on steroids. BPDs study their stalking victims to try and find out why their lives are so much better, why they have good relationships, are so attractive, happy and confident. They want to figure out why things come so easily to others when their own lives are such a mess. They hope to gain some secret knowledge that they can emulate to become more like the person they envy and admire.

R467, that's it in a nutshell. WW for you. I just couldn't word it with the same finesse as you.

You know when you can sense someone's secret pining for you? I asked a BPD. Like i had 2 heads. No one is pining for them. They use you for knowledge and like the NPD, hoping your magic will wear off on them.

With either NPD or BPD, you subconsciously feel their envy. That's your answer to why they'll flip on you like a dime.

They want what you are, what you have and your character disposition. Especially what you have that makes you irresistible to others. Even those traits that bring envious hatred from others who feel you as competition for whatever. They'll also focus in on a flaw to discount you. One example, I've never had bright white teeth. But they're cavity resistant and fell in line perfectly straight no braces required. So even if born in 1600s, i'd not be a freak. One borderline focused on this so much that i finally lost it and told him he'd be a freak a hundred years ago with white teeth overlapping and mangled if not for orthodontistry. Then i finished it off with "Take me 2 visits at the dentist unlike you who would need to see a plastic surgeon in South Korea".

R467, ah, yes the "secret knowledge". Wanna know what the secret knowledge is BPD/NPDs? I just happen to be cut from a finer cloth than you.

Deal & stay away from me. Envious pigs.

Is Omarosa a borderline or a psychopath?

i knew one who was obsessed with the love interest of a guy who just used her as a booty call.

Attilia calling everyone and stalking Jen's FB and all SM accounts. "Matt" had proposed marriage to Jen and got a rejection.

ATTILIA was on a mission to find out why Matt found her irresitible.

Well unlike BPD who was only interested in cats..Jen played flamenco guitar and took weekly lessons. She lanscaped her home like something straight out of Old Kyoto. She weeded for relaxation while taking a full course load at one of the better universities. Hailed from a fine family. Awesome snowboarder. Never wasted her days.

Yet BPD thought she was lesser because she didn't have blue eyes and bottle bleached hair.

She should have SWF'd Jen just for tips but alas Attilia was just that sick.

r464, Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not only talking about appearance. You ever hear of the saying "familiarity breeds contempt", with BPS it breeds out right derangement. BPDs our never able to move past the honeymoon stage of relation,e specially romantic but not just limited to that; new friendships, new boss, new coworkers. Its hard to explain. The only true friends I have are those I made before I was truly BPD in my late adult teens.

Does anyone know if drug abuse can permanently inflict BPD too?

R463 I know someone with HPD who is downright ugly. She wears skimpy clothes and a massive amount of makeup though.

Years ago, a female friend told me of her mother who was depressed and caused great stress in their relationship. The mother would ignore her for hours and not talk or she would retreat into her bedroom for days and isolate.

In some ways I felt jealous of my friend's situation. My borderline mother could never stop talking, ranting, stalking, phoning, and getting in my face constantly.

Hi OP! I'm a hetero female with a clinical diagnosis of this mental illness. I have read a lot about gay men's (here on D/L) interaction with heterosexual women who have/might this. I read such HORRIBLE things these men go through and I thought "Jesus, I'm so sorry". I also have ADHD, PTSD, and OCD. Now I know many of you don't want someone like me here but I never take my shit out on people. If I feel like I'm going to have an "episode" I stay the fuck home. I also come from a long history of physical and mental abuse (Schizophrenic aunt). However I'm still here and I've managed to use "my crazy" for the greater good lol.

****I don't take meds as they make me a zombie but I do take NAC, N-acetyl cysteine. It comes from the amino acid L-cysteine and worked wonders for me. I displayed A LOT of the crazy shit many of you mentioned on here (minus the promiscuity, my head is still a little fucked up from the abuse). It's hard, but I make it a point to be aware of my behavior.

I used to take NAC for chronic bronchitis but it gave me kidney stones (I finally found a reference online that it might cause them - the crystals form as the supplement breaks down.) Don't know if it happens often though, but I had to quit taking it.

You might try DBT R475. Either read a book or find a psychologist who's willing to guide you through it?

To understand the clinical basics, read "Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism." Accepting you have it is a huge step and a sign that you're likely treatable, maybe even curable.

And of the personality disorders, borderline is one that often gets milder as a person ages - unlike NPD, which generally gets worse.

Forgot link about DBT

DL BPDs have found love here.

For all the posters complaining that the horror stories here aren't bpd or are made up, I'll say that at least for the person I wrote about up at r33 he told me himself that he had been diagnosed with it when we were still friendly. I don't doubt he was telling the truth because he had obvious problems with drug addiction, eating disorders, self harm, and just tons of shit.

Anecdotal but for the people asking if bpders can care about pets, he has such an extreme attachment to his pet rat that I think when it dies he'll try to kill himself.

r480 You should tell your acquaintance to get a parrot. Parrots require hours of social interaction every day, develop intense emotional relationships with their owners, and often live longer than their owners.

The key to living with BPD is learning true self love. Thats why it becomes easier with age. Our fragile egos were manipulated, and torn apart at an early age repeatedly. Once we learn that true loves comes from within we no longer need the self validation we seek from others.

R480 I lost 2 cats over the summer. One made me suicidal because he got killed by dogs and I blame myself.

R226 thanks for the guide. Turns out I have more of these pests around me than I thought.

I don't believe myself a sympathetic type, but everyone is always telling me that I'm "way too nice" and "take too much shit". I suppose that must be true given the BPDs who slip into my life through the cracks.

Speaking of, the woman I knew in HS/College who I believed had finally fully ghosted me after years of flaky text spamming me - is now haunting my email inbox. I have her unopened, unread email from about four weeks ago just sitting there, beginning "when you get this message back right away". I daren't open it to read the rest (or to trigger the 'read' receipt). It wasn't like she was ruining my life, but even though she's just a minor nuisance I'd rather avoid having her little stresses and breakdowns back in my world. I was benefiting from newfound peace & quiet. It's difficult for my sense of politeness to go full NC on her, though...

R483, I'm sorry for your loss.

This is going to sound crazy, but there are pet bereavement groups on Facebook. Spending time talking to others has helped me enormously.

Borderlines meet people and immediately look for a fault. They suck like vampires.

Cognizant of the dangers of posthumous diagnoses, another candidate for the Borderline Royalty Hall of Fame (along with Diana of course) is Tsarina Alexandra. While Nicholas was certainly worthless as a Tsar, it has been argued that her behavior, such as with Rasputin, was equally at fault for bringing on the Russian Revolution.