Carolyn Bessette Kennedy Part 2

Where are her eyebrows?

It’s official. Carolyn Bessette is a DL fave—amazing, considering she’s been dead for nearly 20 years.

Link to part one, please.

Part 1

Haven't we discussed this poor woman to exhaustion? What did we miss?

Shush. We've missed plenty. I promise.

Was she a repressed Dyke? No mention yet of that yet...

Prolly bi-curious.

Was she a repressed Incest Survivor? No mention yet of that yet...

Aren't we all?

I think that she has been well-covered in the first thread. What else do we have to uncover? Perhaps for sexy JFK Jr. and his sex life? Lots of gay talk, but I say it's BS. That said, the Kennedy machine could have covered up something if it ever did exist. Carolyn seemed somewhat pretty, coke-addled, rather bright yet also rather dull everything considered.

I don't think he was gay. For a day, maybe. He was a Kennedy. They will try anything once. But I think it's clear he adorded vaginas. And they him.

Adored

Carolyn was way out of her league and covered up her insecurity with aloofness bordering on rudeness. She needed drugs to loosen up and cope with her reality which was too much for her. She was an amateur in every sense of the word. Jackie would have shown her the door.

Not much has been said about her bio dad. Her parents were divorced and her mom remarried a doctor. Her dad was a cabinet maker. Was she close to her bio dad and was he at the wedding? She had a few step-siblings, children of her step-dad.

Yawn.

Someone wrote in the other thread that ahe was seeing a psychiatrist five times a week. Anyone know about that? That seems a bit excessive...

Could somebody start a new thread about Jackie and Lee? I'd love to hear more about them.

I'd like to hear more about Ed Schlossberg and the auction of Jackie's items...

R17 One of John' friend said in his book

Now that we have the benefit of time, it amazes me how little JFK Jr’s life mattered. He was such a big deal at the time but no talents or accomplishments to show for it.

Carolyn doesn't deserve all this hate...

[quote]She was an amateur in every sense of the word. Jackie would have shown her the door.

Aside from the BRF, I've never seen so many comments about a grown ass man needing his mother's approval about who to marry. Maybe when JFK Jr was very young he sought her opinion, but by the time he married CBK he was nearly in his 40's. If JKO was still alive her good opinion would have been a "nice to have" but not required if the guy was truly in love.

So was there someone that Jackie DID want him to marry? I mean, if she scoffed at everyone he dated, who/ what was her ideal pick?

I wonder if she was the sort of mother who believed no one was good enough for her son.

CBK had unbelievable style and taste, I believe.

Her look is very much back "in" right now (fashion recycling it self every 20 years)

That fateful weekend, John and Carolyn allowed his assistant Rosemary to stay at their loft because her air conditioning was broken. One of the last things he said to her at the George office on Friday afternoon was, "And don't be sniffing my clothes while you're staying at our place. I know you want to!".

John had to have mommies approval because she held the purse strings. Most of us can’t relate to that because we don’t come from wealth, but it is quite true. That is horrible w the wealthy get their children to comply — money.

But WHO would've been good enough for Jackie??

We need to NAME NAMES!!

That Pic in the OP is why she used to remind me of Marilyn Manson.

r30 Are you serious? She looks nothing like her and Marilyn seemed very friendly looking.

R14 Jackie was a phony. She should have been shown the door.

So people are still jealous and hating on this woman 20 years after her death?!! Even though she was murdered by her husband' reckless and ignorance!

It's interesting...much that has been said about Carolyn, was also said about Jackie...out of her league...not quite up to Newport standards...too glamorous for a debutante etc. supposedly put ketchup on steaks all gossip...there was no chat about drug abuse, except right after the murder of JFK...she was a chain smoker...basically a human being with flaws like all of us.

P.S. I'd still take all of them over this crowd that's running things in the WH now. They don't even know how to smooth their rough edges.

In the books that his friends wrote about him, Berman , Carole and Rosemary the asst., they had nothing but praise and admiration for her. Said she was charming, funny, kind, and extremely attractive. I think she looks stunning in some pics and others just ok. These are people that were close to them so I tend to believe it. Wouldn't they have sold more books if they would have said scandalous things? It would've meant more money in their pockets.

R35, I don’t doubt that she was charming and warm and funny. I also don’t doubt that she was a raging cunt to her husband.

I know plenty of people who do that.

And I think she had great personal style.

R35, There is always a deification of the dead, almost as if saying something bad will bring one bad luck. But I knew her well enough to say she was completely self absorbed and had no grace or class. She looked the part, that was it. She was also trendy but not sophisticated. Jackie would have preferred someone from a great and super rich family for John, like Bunny Mellon's Granddaughter or someone of that ilk. Jackie, like her Mother was a climber, even after she became beloved by the public and rich from her marriage to Onassis. She famously said to Gore Vidal that she always felt a bit like an outsider. Her Mother's marriage to Hugh Auchincloss gave her a taste of great wealth, but the money would not be hers but her step and half siblings. When Hugh ran through his money, Janet ended up helping him financially.

In the previous thread, someone asked why people made such a big deal about such a simple wedding gown. I am assuming that the person who asked that is rather young and therefore has no knowledge of how hideous wedding dresses were throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Carolyn's dress introduced the idea of minimalism to wedding attire. It was much needed.

I remember reading that Jackie was quite fond of Christina Haag. She wrote a book about her time with John.

I loved George magazine. John and Berman were really ahead of everyone else in terms of understanding the cultural intesect of politics, history, media, and the arts. If John had lived and their magazine had held on, they would have been the first Huffington Post.

I want to hear more about the ill fated estate auction too. I do remember seeing Jackie O inspired costume jewelry being sold on QVC years ago. The sales lady showed pictures of Jackie O wearing the jewels and then she would push the costume jewelry. I assumed that Jackie O's estate had to approve of such a thing.

More details about the crash, please.

How fast were they going? Did they fly straight into the ocean? How cold was the water? Did they know they were flying into it? Reaction time? Instant death?

Jesus, r39, are you a 12 year old?

R38 is right. I remember being so irritated at the headband with attached tutu, heart cut out in the back, sleeves that came to an elastic worn around the middle finger...yuck. I remember anxiously waiting for this dress and the Brooke Shields wedding dress to give us something more red carpet classy.

I remember reading that Jackie said Daryl Hannah looked like an unmade bed and thought it was funny and apt.

I want to know the inappropriate remark Carolyn's mother made the night before the wedding.

[quote]The sales lady showed pictures of Jackie O wearing the jewels and then she would push the costume jewelry. I assumed that Jackie O's estate had to approve of such a thing.

Why would you assume that? Did she have a patent on those designs? People are free to copy anything worn publicly as long as they didn't invoke her name, saying they were Jackie O designs. But it would be fine to say they were "inspired by Jackie O's style" though.

JFK Jr. definitely had a "type"in his taste with women. Carolyn Bessette Kennedy is similar to Sarah Jessica Parker in looks. I think he even dated SJP at one time.

I don’t remember where I read this, but I think what happened with Jackie’s jewelry is that some guy bought a few pieces of it at the estate auction, then he went and produced replicas of it for sale.

I'm with R18 and R19. We need a new thread on Jackie and Lee. Including jackies estate sale.

Maybe some kind of general discussion thread on all things Jackie and Lee and their lives kind of thread.

Someone create the thread!

Thanks in advance.

I read that tome about JFK Jr. and Caroline Kennedy from childhood to adulthood, and neither one are impressive. JFK Jr.'s calling card is he was a nice guy and accessible, far from the brightest, and way more entitled than you'd think. Had that rich kid issue of not only treating his own belongings like trash, but the belongings of other people who would hesitate to bring up the subject of him paying for what he ruined or lost. He was oblivious. He was obviously Jackie's favorite, though. Caroline's problem was she was heavy in adolescence, and her mother had her on a diet, and limited what Caroline could spend money on (such as no bbq ribs). Caroline, in turn, made fun of her mother's breathy voice (behind her back). "Who talks like that?" The worst was that Jackie told friends Caroline was out of her league with Tom Carney, the 10 years her senior Irish writer guy she dated in London. Jackie thought Caroline couldn't begin to handle him. Can you imagine? Jackie, who imagined herself able to handle any man from when she was a young age. Despite having to be helped to passing his third try at the bar, John did have a pretentious side. His magazine. His political aspirations - he thought Hillary Clinton shouldn't have run for senate in NYC and said, "Maybe I should run in Arkansas." That kind of entitlement.

Caroline got more oblivious as she got older. Her ideas on the school board were things like - parents should donate their spare change - not absorbing that many parents had no such thing.

All three, though, were good employees. Excellent employees. A friend of a friend was put up by Caroline for years in Caroline's apartment on Park Avenue. I can't remember the connection, but it was a woman from Kenya who had some affiliation with the Onassis crowd. Caroline supported her (no, no romance).

PS - as I type the Hillary Clinton/JFK thing, I'm thinking why would he say that when he died before she ran? But I think it was known she was intending to run - a lot of the speculation was about NY, and he resented it.

R44 I am not an attorney specializing in such matters so I "assumed" that Jackie O's estate was involved. I said it was an assumption, not a fact. Relax.

R46 Thanks. That makes sense now.

I remember reading that Carolyn once told someone that it was frightening to have photographers lunge in front of her or follow her down the street. Carolyn said that she was too shy to deal with it all.

r31 Are you serious? r30 said Bessette looked like Marilyn Manson, not Marilyn Monroe.

Just for you R47

Did JKO like JFK or CBK and SJP like JFK Jr. due to BDF?

Did Lee Radziwill ever sell her Paris apartment or is she still sitting there?

Stop talking about the Kennedys and pay attention to us.

Lee Radziwill had an amazing collection of Francis Bacons but she was such a big spender she had to sell them for a miniscule percentage of their present value. She also sold a duplex at 969 Fifth Ave for a few hundred thousand, now at least 20 million and a Southhampton beach house for a few million now worth at least 25 million. If she hadn't wasted so much money on nonsense she would have been worth over a Hundred Million form those assets alone.

Well Caroline's husband Ed is quite the prick. RFK Jr's wife killed herself in 2012, she looks remarkably like Jackie.

What do we know about Ed Schlossberg? I could've sworn that he and Caroline separated a dozen years ago, no?

Anyone who can’t see this is beautiful is blind.

Can someone tell me why some idiotic people held Carolyn responsible for JFK jr' death?! Carolyn didn't even want to go with him on that ill fated flight and needed much persuasion to go. He was gonna dive his plane into the ocean sooner or late, with or without Carolyn.

sooner or later

In my opinion, this photo, taken on one of their first dates, shows Carolyn Bessette to be the natural beauty she is described as, by her friends and family. She looks nothing like the emaciated coke-ravaged Carolyn of 1999. Here her mouth is full, her dress is ill-fitting and yet? She is beautiful.

I can see why JFK Jr fell in love. Frightening what 3 short years did to her.

Can you blame Jackie for not liking her son being attached to a media whore like Madonna, or space case like Daryl? I can't imagine the Coke addict would be received any differently.

Sorry, R62.

This photo wasn’t taken right before her death and she looks radiant.

I heard JFK Jr. liked strutting around the locker room naked at the gym, teasing all the gay men.

Jackie wouldn't have liked Carolyn.

R60 is HRC, still relieved she had no competition for that seat.

Billy Noonan is listed as a producer for that new TLC Special linked in r62. He seems like a real scum bag. He wrote a book about his friendship with JFK Jr. It only he had stopped there...

Then mysteriously on the internet you could go to some sketchy website and pay to see the footage of their wedding. It was eventually taken down, but not before someone figured out the website was linked to Noonan’s wife.

Now he’s finally using the footage for this tv show.

R57, and didn’t he go on and marry Cheryl Hines two years after Mary’s suicide?

Those Kennedy men are something else. Hopefully Cheryl can handle that shit.

[quote]Those Kennedy men are something else. Hopefully Cheryl can handle that shit.

Cheryl, a strong punch to the center of the rear windshield should break the window, and allow you to escape the submerged car and retreat to safety.

I pick my nose.

Carolyn was more beautiful with darker hair

The vanity fair article about JFK Jr/Carolyn B (from the Kennedy Curse book) was an obvious Kennedy PR move to trash Carolyn B and cement her negative reputation. They blame her on almost everything gone wrong in John life during this period, it's like a collection of negative stories about Carolyn. Even going too far implying she was the cause of their death because she was late doing her nails.

While in other books or interviews of other people who knew both Carolyn and John, they talk positively about her, yes, she had problems, and was insecure and neurotic but it's a balanced view Not like that ridiculous VF article/ Kennedy Curse book.

January 6, 1998 – Altercation with pap at Teterboro Airport

It was said that Carolyn spat in the face of this woman

Please talk about us more.

She and her generation of entitled Manhattan assholes are done. The whole Sex and the City thing isn't aging well. the materialism, the superficiality, etc... it's so passe.

Ok, I totally get what the poster who said she looked like Marilyn Manson meant. That photo at r74.

R69

They couldn't just let Mary Richardson Kennedy rest in peace.

The estranged wife of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who was buried near the Kennedy clan's Hyannis Port compound over the objections of her siblings, was dug up last week and moved to a remote part of St. Francis Xavier Cemetery

Instead of spending eternity buried near Camelot members Eunice and Sargent Shriver — RFK Jr.'s aunt and uncle — Mary was shunted about 700 feet away to a lonely hilltop on the other end of the cemetery

R58, She ceased using the name Schlossberg years ago and reverted to Caroline Kennedy.

Thank you r52!

r77 Was she on her period?

The one I've always wondered about was Lisa Bessette. Losing both of your sisters, one a twin, on the same night, tragically. How does one recover from that?

Ultimate chic . . .

"But I think it's clear he adorded vaginas"

I agree with you, but I'm not sure you know what the definition of "adorded" is.

You'd be surprised at how much territory that actually covers.

Not all of it south of the border, either.

she really was beautiful when she was very young

It's been well documented that George was in financial peril and John was desperately seeking financing to possibly save it.

Given the public embarrassment of a failed business combined with the rumored disastrous state of his marriage, does anyone believe that flight might have been a murder/suicide mission?

The still life behind the couple in the pic at r62 looks gorgeous.

It was Carole Radziwill who telephoned Mrs. Bessette early Saturday morning to inform her that the plane was missing, so she wouldn't learn it from a news broadcast. Carole also had the horrible task of informing Mrs. Bessette that Lauren had been on the plane.

Wrong R23 JFK Jr never even made it to 40, let alone his early 40s.

Are you reading challenged R92? It says "nearly in his 40's"

[R86] I totally Agree! When I looked at it, I wondered, if you have to be born into these circles, to be so comfortably and nonchalantly 'chic'..so few of our supposed 'Hollywood Royals' can do or look like this...but then the patriarch of the Kennedys, Joseph, Sr. passed an infamous quote to his family..."it's not what you are that's important...it's what people think you are."

I believe that part of his obsession with success, power and money was fueled by the rejection he encountered in Boston for being Irish, particularly Harvard...I was very disappointed to read that this theory was part of the Kennedy mystique. Nonetheless, what difference between them and those in the WH today!

Back in those days, ethnics and people who were 'rough around the edges' were very serious about appearances and strived for a respectable and 'classy' way to present themselves. Joan Crawford was another example of this.

Today, everybody just lets their trash flag fly.

I miss the late 90’s so much

Carolyn had the best accessory on her arm, JFK Jr. She should look confident. But he was always going to be the focus, no matter what.

I thought this article was really good. Gives insight into the goings-on behind the scenes Especially the reporters, not only constantly pouncing, but calling her a whore and a bitch to get reaction shots from her.

John's entitledness also sounds difficult to stand.

Never saw this and found it interesting.

Aquestion. Carolyn bessette's nose could be hideously ugly (especially when she smiled broadly), or perfect. A lot depended on the angle from which she was photographed.

So what would a nose job have been able to do for her?

here is an example of her nose from an unflattering angle.

Quote below from the article @ R98. She almost didn't go to the wedding......an important Kennedy family event. Tried to cancel at the last minute. Apparently, she did this a lot as a passive aggressive way to punish John.

[quote]I’m not a priority,” she said. “It’s always something else. George. Somebody getting fired. An event. A trip to Italy to meet advertisers.”

Classic borderline. Fear and anger at not being #1 ALL the time. Terror at being abandoned.

Are you fucking mentally challenged R93? Are you able to fucking do math you worthless piece of shit? He was 35 when they got married, which is the time frame R23 is talking about. That is not nearly in his 40s. That’s like saying a 15 year old is “nearly in his 20s”. Or that a 5 year old is nearly a teenager. Please cull yourself from the general population, you miserable excuse for a human being.

Here’s a tip: down the road, not across the street.

Dimwit at R102. Comparing a fifteen year old to someone in their early twenties is a poor analogy to 35 vs. 40. There is a major difference in maturity between a teenager and a young adult. Duh. Hardly any difference between 35 and 40. And, yes, Mama's boy John John never needed Mommy's approval for who to marry once he hit middle age......35, 36, 37, 38----you know, "nearly 40".

R100, Diana's nose from certain angles was hideous.

R101, It was Rosemarie Terenzio, John's assistant, who persuaded Carolyn to attend Rory Kennedy's wedding. She told her that her absence would feed the gossip columns fresh meat about the rocky state of their marriage. Carolyn relented and went shopping for a dress while Rosemarie ordered her a car to the airport.

R104, Diana's nose pretty much always looked huge. Although, i do concede, their problem noses are almost identical.

So can plastic surgery coorect it?

The sex must have been hot.

Not sure when this is dated from, but—even in candid, private photos you can see—he was a truly handsome man in every sense of the word...

Carolyn did seem to have good (and natural) instincts when in came to fashion and style—even more so than most Hollywood actress types...

No one is disputing he was a very handsome man R108.

R108, November of 1997.

DL went in like i knew you guys would. Part one covered it all. Part two is not needed. I was a kid when this happened so looking at it now, JFK JR was very handsome. Gorgeous. The wife was sometimes pretty. Mostly not. Look kinda old for 33. Yelling and screaming on the street is trashy and embarassing. What the hell is that? I dont see how they matter at all in history. Like others said, they didnt contribute to anything or change the world. Sounds like they just walked around being pretty and psychotic. And he sounds like a dumb pathetic little pussy.

A nose job would have ruined her face. She was very beautiful to me. Not a classic beauty, but beautiful anyway. She was striking in looks and cooly confident much like his mother.

I felt really bad for Darryl Hannah when he got married. She kind of went into seclusion and then reappeared much larger. It was sad. No one really questioned why he married Carolyn and not Darryl. Carolyn was so gorgeous and seemingly so right for his political career.

Jr. had gorgeous big feet. Anybody know his foot size?

I walked by 20 N Moore today. I said a prayer on behalf of DL.

R115 didn’t Edward Burns buy JFK Jr’s apartment? Wonder if he still lives there (with Christie)?

That’s beautiful r115. Thank you for passing along our condolences.

R102, your hatred is showing.

You have no cause to be so hateful.

Prettier when younger because her features were softer, not just from youth but mostly from normal lean weight, before the coke fest pity parties got out of hand. For fashion purposes the borderline anorexic look worked for her. She chose having a skeletal frame over having a soft feminine face. That works for modeling and in non-famine eras.

[quote] I met Carolyn through someone in the film business who had a sister who was friendly with her. I later spent time with her through Bergin with whom I was very close for a while and no, he's not gay but knows how to use his looks to manipulate gay men. He was very close with Valentino for a while until V got tired of his shit. He cancelled on V for a White House dinner and that was that. … I didn't like Carolyn and thought she had no kindness in her. She used Bergin to get John and then actually believed he was lucky to have her. I also know for a fact that Lee Radziwill did not like her nor does she care for Carole.

R179 (from the Part 1 thread), if you’re still here, tell us more.

How did it come about that you were “very close for a while” to Michael Bergin? What did he get when he “used his looks to manipulate gay men”?

What was his “very close” relationship with Valentino like?

And how did a male model score an invite to “a White House dinner”? (Even Karl Lagerfeld’s male model boytoys don’t get WH invites.)

Monday, July 16th is the 19th anniversary.

Is the link just a really unflattering picture, because it's quite a day when Hillary is the pretty one.

Caroline Kennedy fascinates me as she's a bit of an enigma... there's got to be gossip there. Where does she live? UES? Is the marriage really dead? Is Ed really a jerk? So many questions...

[quote]Is the link just a really unflattering picture, because it's quite a day when Hillary is the pretty one.

R122 = Bill Clinton.

Jesus, everyone claims plastic surgery makes people look worse. But if there ever was a good case for a face lift it's Caroline Kennedy. Yikes.

May be too late for Caroline Kennedy.

R124, we are forgetting what old people look like

When I go up to coastal Maine to visit my mother, all the old people have wrinkles and white hair and they don’t give a shit. I’m so used to seeing old people with dark brown or blonde hair and faces pulled tight, it’s a bit of a shock to see.

Caroline Kennedy is 60. She's not 90. But she has Irish skin and UV damage. She doesn't need to look older than she is. She has the money for dermabrasion.

Those Kennedy wrinkle genes are harsh.

Tell me about it.

sunscreen, bitches.

I held up pretty good.

R126 those people are no-nonsense survivors with better things to do. They would ridicule each other if any one of them got their face pulled tight. They don't compete for resources with their appearance. They knit and sew and farm and fish and get sun on their faces and eat fatty foods and wear big sweaters. They probably don't even have mirrors in their homes. Can you imagine!

Would Jackie have liked anyone for John Jr.? Was John Jr. a momma's boy? I get that impression..

Yes he was, R133. He wanted and acting career and she forbade it. He could have gone very far on his looks alone. He should have told her to fuck off.

[quote]she has Irish skin and UV damage

That's the key, the Kennedys are 'outdoorsy' types and people weren't aware back in the day how much damage sun could do (for both health and vanity reasons).

R128, that's Eunice at age 30.

Could it be the Kennedy curse isn't actually dying young?

Wow.. the Kennedy women.. just wow.

.. at least they all had good thick hair.

And with those chompers I'd say a good steak isn't out of the question at any age.

Anyone who would say that she is beautiful is not beautiful R59

Those wrinkles! They dry up and shrivel like prunes! 😮

R89 I believe it was murder/suicide. Need to add in he was living at a hotel at time of crash. Two major failures. He knew that he would have been a big disappointment especially for people awaiting a run for public office. There was so much pressure on this guy. Newspapers didn't help with headlines like

that is rank speculation. Oh, wait: this is DL.

When was the dress purchased? If that very day then it was passive-aggressive as hell. Maybe she said she wasn't going to the actual affair and he ditched his plane intentionally. Murder/suicide was my gut reaction so I trust it.

It was reported that she bought the dress that day.

You know Bisected was a raging bitch. Here John's assistant is proving by recalling a fond memory. Intentionally a back handed compliment? Who knows. Just called her loser.

“I said to him that I couldn’t believe he showed all those other losers the magazine first and left you sitting outside like the redheaded stepchild. I told him, ‘Oh no. You need to go in and apologize to her in the morning. That was really gross,’ ” Terenzio says in the book

R147, that quote makes no sense to me. Can you clarify? Who was Rosemarie calling losers?

Exiting the plane in the field "angry and unhurt, trailing not far behind"?

That sentiment supports the theory. He seemed exhausted near the end. Probably a big spite move. A domineering harpy she seemed.

So if he did land the plane in a field and they survived, he'd walk ahead of her on his gimp foot try to escape her angry wrath?

The more I try this on the better it fits. Although, not as well of the off the rack dress she bought that very day. Passive aggressive punishing people can cause you to lose your mind. She was seriously considering not attending? He's living in a hotel and it will soon be announced that his publishing career would be shuttered. That means his charisma and fame could not attract advertisers. It says that nobody in business believed in him. Arguing with a spiteful shrew of a wife that very day. Leaving someone else to communicate. So sure he looked on in doom having to attend a family event with this one. Took her time at the salon. Probably enjoyed torturing him by being late. Carolyn's habit of pointing her finger in faces while giving a good lashing down. He knew with the two fails the press was going to have a field day. His sister saying I told you so.

It's really not a reach at all to imply it was a double murder/suicide. People snap all of the time. He doesn't seem at all resilient. Big scar tissue from childhood. No decent father figure growing up..

R148, it is finger pointing, shaming Carolyn's quote.

Is that a cold sore on her lip?

R148, John showed the prototype of the premiere issue of George to a select group of the magazine's employees, but excluded personal assistant Rosemarie Terenzio, which infuriated her. When Carolyn learned what he did, she set him straight and the next day he apologized to Rosemarie.

R142, That New England summer sun is a bitch, take it from me.

I get it, old people are wrinkly. I hope we all get to be old wrinkly people.

And don't get me started on Mrs. Lawford!

Jesus, R129, you’re scaring me!

Those Kennedy women all have the dried prune look, of course, but Maria Shriver has presumably had some work. The result is larger folds that make her look like a Shar-Pei. Maybe it's best that they leave it alone.

You know what? I think the murder suicide theory is OFF. Sure, you can make a case that he was most definitely under tremendous pressure.

But if you review the pattern of his doomed flight, it perfectly corresponded to what would happen to a pilot who wasn’t instrument trained and lost sight of the shoreline. If it was a suicide wouldn’t he have simply plunged straight down? He went up up up slowly, and then he went down in a rapidly exponentially faster death spiral. He finally remembered what to do and tried to correct, but it was too late. You can actually visually track what the plane did.

Their last moments must have been terrifying.

Theory: Gay men are obsessed with this woman because no matter what you may personally think of her looks, she was/is what MANY straight men find irresistibly attractive and sexy.

Many gay men are secretly obsessed with straight men, and thus, obsessed with this woman since she represents the pinnacle of beauty and desirability to so many hot straight men.

Thank you to evryone that clarified R147.

Poor Rory. Her big day was ruined.

R162, As I recall, she was quietly married a few weeks later in Europe.

Rory has to be lesbian.

Would they have known they were crashing at some point or would they be so disoriented they thought they were flying normally?

R165, from what I’ve read at first the feeling would have been subtle — it was kind of a slow ascent which they would have noticed and likely talked about. But then he went into a deep descent which threw the plane into a death spiral. So the g-forces would have been incredible and literally pinning them in their seats (even though they were strapped in), so they absolutely would have known they were going down. I’m sure they were all screaming. It had to be beyond terrifying. I was in a bad car wreck and I’ll never forget that I could see the car coming at full speed the instant before Impact, which my mind replays 20 years later. They would have been in the dark so one good thing is they would have had no idea exactly when they would impact, which I’m sure was absolutely terrifying too, but also a blessing because when they did finally impact, the force killed them instantly and it was a surprise. It’s horrifying to even write all this, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, well, except Trump.

Bah. he might have been really low and suddenly plop in a few seconds max.

She MAJORLY LOOKS POSITIVELY EQUINE WITH THAT HORRIBLY UGLY HORSE FACE!!!

That's a sad way to die, R167.... terrified like that.... and in anger.. you can imagine him screaming at her/them to shut the fuck up; Carolyn screaming God knows what but lets assume loaded with recrimination; the sister probably screaming at Carolyn to shut the fuck up so John could fly the plane... what a nightmare. It's sad, even for jerks.

Wouldn't they have lost consciousness due to such a rapid descent?

Doubtful they were flying very high R170.

If you're going to make ridiculous conspiracy theories at least have some logic behind them. Saying JFK jr was suicidal is fucking stupid, dude thought a lot of himself.

Isn't it actually better to crash on land as opposed to water since the ground will absorb the shock whereas the water/ocean throws it right back at you?

Dear R120, I worked for an agency that represented Bergin, that's how I know him. Bergin loved flirting with gay guys but he is straight. His model manger, a girl from Wilhelmina was in love with him and was way too possessive which is why his career fizzled. His acting manager was great but dumped him and went on to make Ashton Kutcher a star. She's now one of the biggest managers in Hollywood, her company is Untitled. He was Valentino's plus 1 to the White House and was approved to go the White House because his Father is a respected Connecticut State Detective so he passed muster with the vetting process unlike most other coked up rent boys who model. He cancelled at the last minute which ended his relationship with Valentino who had just hosted him on his yacht T.M. Blue. R173, I hope you're not a pilot.

Wow, thanks, R174, fascinating stuff.

I always found him very handsome obviously, in the classical, slightly beefcake way. I liked his nose. Not the brightest bulb though and a bit of an opportunist, like most of that set.

Apparently he met Bessette when he was a doorman at some NYC hotel and she was a CK publicist. Guess she might have helped him land the big CK campaign.

Though apparently Bessette also bleached his eyebrows at some point - and he might have lost another campaign because of her.

Between the Wilhelmina manager and Bessette, sounds like he was cock deep in crazy, possessive females.

And who on earth cancels on a White House dinner? Most would kill for that opportunity to mingle with the elite.

Valentino seems to be doing alright though. Last time I checked he was with a Bel Ami model...

Have you heard anything about Valentino’s yacht parties? I bet he didn’t just invite & host Bergin, but most of the top male models from his shows. Lucky Italian.

R172, Even the most blatant narcissist can be pushed over the edge to suicide. Numerous celebrities who thought a lot of themselves have ended their lives.

john john still be with us had he not married this junky psycho....

I worked with a man who had gone to Brown Univ with jfk,jr and ran with his crowd, he said the term that most described him, tho a nice guy, was 'dumb jock'....not into the books...did too much jus to please mommy and the FAMILY. … loved chasin puss.

I think his wife made him a nervous wreck, but he didn't want to admit he married the wrong girl..god jon jon was GEORGOUS .

If Jackie had lived beyond 1994, JFK, Jr.would have lived longer.

I’m a straight guy and I find her unattractive. If you look at pictures of her when she was younger she was actually quite plain. I can’t understand why people on here keep calling her “beautiful” and a “style icon”. She was a beak nosed bug eyed dog who was completely delusional and full of herself. JFK jr was an idiot and a mommas boy, who was stupid enough to get mixed up with her.

While I disagree with r180 about CBK not being a "style icon", because she most assuredly was and still is, nevertheless, I for one welcome him with a saucer of milk.

R180, I think she had great personal style. But I don’t think she was a beauty. She had a look. And like Jennifer Aniston and Audrey Hepburn, I think she appeals more to women who admire her. I don’t think most straight men would consider her “hot”.

She reminds me of the woman from “Gone Girl”.

Remember they were pushing Kissinger as a sex symbol? And poor old JFK near the end of his life all sickly and bloated by steroids was supposed to be a "Greek God."

Chaos agents.

[quote]I think she had great personal style. But I don’t think she was a beauty. She had a look.

There's the distinction between great personal style and a look. CBK had a look - taken from others. It was classic and enduring and it worked, but there was no invention or creativity.

R22 you spelled "hype" wrong.

R183 poor old JFK? He was 46 when he died! And he was still a fine looking man!

R183, Many believed that JFK looked better with his face filled out due to medication.

JFK was not sickly and bloated at the end. He definitely had periods where his health problems flared up badly and it showed, but the day he died he actually looked damn fine. And slim.

Still, he did have Addison's Disease at the time of his death, which has been well documented.

^ Oh, he had all kinds of medical problems all the way to the end (he was wearing a back brace the day he was killed). I was just referring to how he looked.

The extreme variability of her appearance in photos fascinates me. How does this woman produce the same photos that we've seen here with the huge honker of a nose? The gummy smile?

her dye job was too brassy -

I think R160 has it about right. Jealousy is lurking underneath these scathing comments about a woman no one knew at all. We hangout on DL to be snarky and have fun but come on; the woman died a horrible death and is gone.

Even if you landed the catch of the century and you thought you knew what you were marrying into, you have no idea how you would react if photographers jumped out at you everyday. Constant scrutiny in your face. No let up.

In my opinion, she was an extremely attractive woman. Tall, thin, pretty, very sexy. So fucking what if she could be moody and outspoken at times. Who isn’t?

R177 And Carolyn would still be here if she hadn't married a hubris filled incompetent pilot.

[quote] Jealousy is lurking underneath these scathing comments about a woman no one knew at all.

R193 apparently hasn't read Part 1 to this thread. R179 on the Part 1 thread said he did know her to an extent, and that in his experience she was cold and calculating:

[quote] I met Carolyn through someone in the film business who had a sister who was friendly with her. I later spent time with her through Bergin with whom I was very close for a while [...] I didn't like Carolyn and thought she had no kindness in her. She used Bergin to get John and then actually believed he was lucky to have her. I also know for a fact that Lee Radziwill did not like her nor does she care for Carole.

[quote] So fucking what if she could be moody and outspoken at times.

By the accounts of people who knew her well her behaviour was more than "moody". Bergin revealed her behaviour was bipolar-like - swinging between normal and bizarrely psychotic, even violent.

Moreover, there's the question of cocaine. If I recall correctly, Bergin says she wasn't an addict, but that she did take cocaine recreationally with her fashion world friends (as was very common in that industry in the 80s-90s). The cocaine might have exacerbated her volatile behaviour.

[quote] And Carolyn would still be here if she hadn't married a hubris filled incompetent pilot.

We don't know what happened on that flight. Was there a fight or a heated argument during the flight? The only 3 people who know what really happened onboard that flight are not around to reveal the truth.

Also, it's not a given that she would "still be here". Car accidents, terminal illnesses (cancer, etc) and ODs are more frequent causes of celebrity deaths than airplane crashes.

I read the entirety of thread 1, thanks. One person experiencing one behavior on one day maybe a glimpse into person, but so short-sighted. Whatever...

Do what you need to do to believe she was the downfall of JFK, Jr. Did you read thread 1, dearest? The fact is — she was not the pilot that day.

People need to stop with the ridiculous crap about them having some vicious argument in the plane. The pic below is the interior of a Piper Saratoga. JFK Jr. was obviously in the pilot's seat. The way the bodies were found suggests Carolyn and Lauren were sitting immediately behind him, facing rear, and they were all strapped in. If you've ever been inside one of these little planes, you'd know it's way too fucking loud to be able to have even a shouting match, especially facing away from each other.

I never imagined it was that big. Seems like a lot of plane to fly solo with limited experience. Hubris.

Video (with audio) of a group of people flying in a Piper Saratoga. Notice nobody bothers trying to talk to the camera because they'd have to scream to be heard. And you can see that for the pilot to "argue" with anyone behind him, even someone directly behind him on the right, he'd have to hoist himself out of his seat to turn backwards.

It has nothing to do with the size of the plane, R198. He was qualified to fly a plane that size, but not skilled enough to do it at night in poor conditions and without his panel. He could have been flying a smaller 2-seater and that wouldn't have made a difference if he couldn't handle the conditions.

Years ago I read Candance Bushnell's 4 Blondes which included a Roman A Clef about JFK and Carolyn. I dont remember the details since it's been almost 20 years, but it was fucking brutal.

Candace fucked Michael Bergin when she profiled him for The New York Observer. This was in 1995 or 96. Because of this Carolyn hated Candace and snubbed her any time she saw her.

R172 is correct. He thought the world of himself with his business failing that he put his name on. His marriage was in shambles and the press hounded him and constantly made him feel like an ass. A joke. Some guidette from the Bronx is your wingman. He was on top of the world!

T.M. Blue - barely in the category of super yachts, though very sleek for its time. One cannot get lost on that yacht which otherwise is a joy on very huge yachts.

R196, it wasn't "one person experiencing one behavior on one day". As already mentioned (but what you ignored) is that there were other accounts by people who knew Bessette that said she was unstable and sometimes violent.

And show me please where I said "she was the downfall" of anyone. Mary! You project your own words onto others.

Of course he was the pilot. But she was his wife, they were a team. She either agreed or spurred him on (we don't know) that he should fly late in the eve, in poor visibility / darkness. She also contributed to them setting off so late into the night, by running late herself. What, she didn't know that her life partner was only a novice pilot? He only had his licence for 15 months.

If your life partner (who only had a car driving licence for 15 months) decided to drive on a mountain serpentine road in the Alps, in darkness (because you were late) - would you just sit back and let your partner risk it? I wouldn't.

The fact is all 3 of them made a collective decision that day. That collective decision was to fly in onsetting darkness, with a family member who everyone knew was a novice, not very experienced pilot.

[quote] "The flight was originally scheduled for daylight hours, but had to be postponed after Kennedy's sister-in-law was delayed at work. Heavy traffic further delayed Kennedy's flight and pushed it back until after dark. Originally planned to depart at 6:00 p.m., Kennedy's plane departed at 8:39 p.m. instead, nearly a half-hour past sunset. At the time of the takeoff, the moon was just above the horizon and provided very little illumination."

Also, as his life partner, was she not aware that her own spouse just had surgery recently and that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have him operate an aircraft so soon after his injury & surgery?

He was reckless and she was reckless in backing his reckless behaviour. They both suffered the ultimate price for their combined husband-wife decision.

[quote] "Six weeks before the crash, Kennedy had fractured his left ankle in a paragliding accident over the Memorial Day weekend. He had surgery and wore a cast which was removed just the day before the fatal flight. He still walked with a limp on the day of the accident."

[R48] 'John did have a pretentious side. His magazine. His political aspirations - he thought Hillary Clinton shouldn't have run for senate in NYC and said, "Maybe I should run in Arkansas." That kind of entitlement'. This is why he is dead

r207 Do you have a link to that quote?

Clinton said she was "interested" in the NY Senate seat in February 1999.

On July 7, 1999, she announce that she had formed a committee to "explore" the possibility of a run.

JFK Jr died a few weeks later.

I missed the fact that Monday 7/16 marked 19 years since the crash. I remember watching the news coverage all morning, hoping there might be good news, but knowing in the pit of stomach that there wouldn't be.

R209, go find your mommy, ok kid?

R210, same here. I was just so surprised actually that I even cared. But I did.

John Jr had attn def disorder and shouldnt have been a pilot. That night was the first time he flew without a flight instructor along. Nobody in the Kennedy extended family would fly with him. He was in a leg cast that night and there was bad haze with limited visibility and it was almost dusk when they took off. Not a good scenerio. If he would have used the automatic pilot the accident wouldnt have happened. It was commented that he didnt know how to use the automatic pilot. Apparently on that flight a commercial airliner on approach to jfk had to make manuevers to avoid hitting his plane. He became disoriented and the plane went into a nosedive. His mother wasnt opposed to him getting married it was she just had an extreme antenna when it came to fleshing out people. She approved of one or two of his earliest girlfriends at brown univ.......basically preppy types from good families. She controlled his trust fund and John cared deeply what his mother thought in addition. Kennedy liked to shower at the gym with the curtain open so people could look in. He was also completely addicted to porn and as a matter of fact hesitated about getting into politics because of it. (I think this was the old fashioned rented porn from the video store and not online private stuff). I think his porn habit was a big part of his sessions with therapist. He was extremely clumsy and uncoordinated and preoccupied and it drove his wife crazy. Madonna said he was naive in bed...........Thats all the gossip i know.

R210, Wednesday July 18th was the 49th anniversary of Uncle Ted driving off the Dyke Bridge on Chappaquiddick and leaving Mary Jo Kopechne to die in the submerged car.

Obviously, July is not a Kennedy friendly month.

There has never been a single article or interview or a book written by anyone who knows the Bessette family intimately. Carole radziwil so clearly doesn't count.

That is remarkable. Those people could have made millions. So either the Bessette/Freeman/messina families are extremely disciplined and possibly threatening, or the Kennedy's are shutting them up.

Makes me wonder.

R215, That was probably one of Caroline's stipulations along with the payoff she made to Mrs. Freeman.

I am sure that's true, R216, but how would they control the hundreds of kids who knew carolyn in high school, the ex boyfriends, the distant relatives who were at all the family reunions?

I can see the Bessettes keeping a tight lid, but would they open the floodgates paying hundreds of people off?

R215: likely because no one is really interested. The truth is most people don’t care about JFK jr and Carolyn Bessette.

Next year, to mark the 20th anniversary, there will be much media coverage, much like there was for Diana's 20th in 2017.

I agree with R218 & R219. Most people realize that there was nothing remarkable about CBK and the demographic that felt sentimental about Jr. Is dying off

In an online article about JFK, Jr.’s style, there were s bunch of photos of him, from about high school to his last days. What I noticed in looking at all the pictures was that he seems to have had a nose job somewhere along the way. The surgeon did a remarkable job.

bump

R201 I've read that book too. It's the story about the paranoid princess.

There's an episode of Sex & the City where Samantha pisses off a socialite by making out with her husband (she didn't know that he was married) and the wife walking in - leading her to become a social pariah. Then she befriends JFK Jr. In reruns, it was changed to her befriending Leonardo DiCaprio.

There's another story in Four Blondes about a model who becomes the mistress for a movie producer that's obviously based on Harvey Weinstein. I always wondered who the model was supposed to be.