Norman Lear Was An Asshole

Well, of course he's a pos. I'm glad O'Connor told him off.

I read his autobiography. To say the old man is full of himself is the understatement of the century.

Word has it that he was a complete prick and bully to his writers,

I love autobiographies but I could not get through that book. Not even thirty pages. So fucking boring.

Carroll O'Connor was a sweetheart.

R4 except when O'Connor went around blaming his adopted son's drug addiction on the drug dealer. I'm not defending the drug dealer or O'Connor's pain but it's apparent that...was his name HUGH O'CONNOR (?) was a drug addict. That is not the drug dealer's problem.

A TV producer who is hamstrung by a nervous actress is not a successful TV producer.

Being nice doesn’t pay the bills.

You don't have the kind of success he had without playing hardball once in a while. i've met him in social situations, and he was nice, and had none of the airs you'd expect from someone as successful as he. I also tried to read his memoir, and could not get through it. It was badly written and tedious as fuck, surprisingly.

He will always be the first producer who successfully brought more reality based series to tv. His battles with Carroll were legendary. And Carroll didn’t back down. But Lear knew when to pull his weight and to back off. Half of the country was watching All in the Family in the 70s. He knew if Carroll left the show it would end it during his salary hold out. So CBS basically told Lear to shut the fuck up.

I can’t blame him for saying that to Sanford. The Jeffersons were ripe for a spin off. But without Sanford the show wouldn’t have lasted as long. IMO.

As far as Amos goes, Lear fucked up by letting him go. It was an impulsive decision. But Amos was incensed with the Jimmie Walker dynamite bs. From what I understand they gave Amos a raise and he continued to gripe so they let him go. They should’ve reached some compromise to keep Amos on the show.

Damn, damn, damn

R5 is very protective of drug dealers

I'm the last person to defend Lear as I hated his shows and find them nothing but loud obnoxious people endlessly yelling at each other or insufferably trying to earnestly understand one another but how can you be in this position and not occasionally be an asshole. Since when were people expected to be nice all the time?

I agree with r11.

I hated All In the Family while growing up. Nothing but yelling at each other for 30 minutes. Not the kind of TV I was used to and I was repulsed by what I saw.

That said, a TV producer who doesn't put his foot down and make sure his vision remains true isn't going to be successful. Thus, occasional clashes with the cast are to be expected, especially considering that that show's success is inevitably going to go to the actor's head.

Any word/stories on his relationship with Bea Arthur when they were doing "Maude"?

I used to work for a company that distributed his shows internationally and I can confirm he was a colossal prick.

R14, what was Al Burton like?

Interesting. Some of the actors he's worked with think the world of him. Wonder if he played favorites?

If he killed off Archie what would have been the point of that show? Clearly he did not think that through.

All in the Family was groundbreaking and very good for the first few years, but the other shows are all shit.

22 minutes of screaming.

And, the black themed shows now come across as demeaning.

All In The Family was great for the first four years. Then the actors (especially O'Connor) started mugging for the camera, and were sorely in need of a director who could rein them in. Most of Lear's other shows were sub-par. Maude was a great character, but the show surrounded her a with poor supporting cast. Good Times was an updated minstrel show. The only show I thought really worked was The Jeffersons, because it didn't try to be more than it was , a comedy...and most of the cast gelled perfectly (George, Weezy, Florence, Mother Jefferson, etc).

Hold me, David!

And then there's me.

Maude had a good supporting cast, but again, too much screaming.

Well....Adrienne wasn't very good.

But, Conrad Bain and Rue were great!

I seem to remember a time when the leads from several,of his shows walked off at the same time. Carol O’Connor, Bill Macy and Redd Foxx.

Adrienne was fresh and likable as Carol. The role wasn't exactly Electra. I'm not sure anyone else could have done more with it.

Remember there was a different Carol in the pilot. Talk about forgettable.

None of Norman Lear's shows have aged well.

How very dare you, r26!

I refuse to believe the man who foisted Ann Romano on the world was an asshole!

He sort of also gave us this:

And just when you think he's a good egg after all, you find this and realize the well is poisoned after all.

He is an asshole...I thought he was long dead.

R6 being a dick to the talent can backfire as well as it can succeed. Look at how the assholes behind Three's Company treated the leads for The Ropers after promising they'd always have a place at the table, should the show fail. They lost the show as well as the promise of future revenues from it. And they lost two popular actors. Or, rather, they discarded them.

One can only conclude that Norman Fell and Audra Lindley went on good faith from the producers and failed to get that promise in writing. Otherwise, I find it surprising they didn't sue to get their jobs back.

The interview on YouTube confirms what the OP said about John Amos, but at least Amos learned. He said, he thought he was too important to be let go, and later on he reconciled with Lear and starred in the sitcom 704 Hauser Street, about a black family moving in to Archie Bunker's home.

In a way I felt sorry for Sanford, because not only did she get bullied, but she said in her interview, that she thought Louise was too nice, and she'd think of mean comebacks and the writers would say, "Great line," the take them and give them to George or Florence. When she complained to Lear, Lear said, "They're right, Louise cannot be a jerk or mean."

Gotta give him major props for founding the People for the American Way in 1980. He was one of the first ones who saw the dangers that Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority could inflict on everyone.

R15 Al Burton was the tiniest man this side of Tom Thumb.

I don't much like sitcoms (there a a couple sitcoms) but channel surfing do sometimes run across "Good Times" and always think of John Amos.

The Jimmy Walker "dy-no-mite" shit is really, really insulting. Condescending shit.

Looking back, it's a surprise that no one called them on it.

[quote]I hated All In the Family while growing up. Nothing but yelling at each other for 30 minutes.

I hated that show, too.

All in the Family was often condescending.

But it at least approached getting at the phenomenon that is DEPLORABLES, R39.

Opening eyes through entertainment.

Now it’s just “Jab” television.

With All in the Family, at least they tried to reveal how ALL the characters’ wheels turned, no matter what their political leanings.

What show succeeds at that today? SNL? The ROSEANNE reboot??

John Amos was hot as fuck.

His scenes with the corduroy pants are the stuff of legend.

John Amos was my favorite on the show. The whole cast was good.

Amos should have had more acting opportunities.

People for the American Way:

Sound and Fury, signifying nothing.

Except the tax write-off

He never messed with me.

Why has ‘Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman’ never been shown on TV in the last 30 years, other than the first 25 episodes which were shown once on Nick at Night?

I absolutely adore John Amos, loved him on "Good Times" and agree to this day with his (and Esther Rolle's) complaints that J.J. was nothing but a clown who was far more embarrassing than funny. I will also never forget when James was (shockingly, at the time) killed off the show. That said, I have always been of the very minority opinion that the show actually improved after James was no longer there for two very specific reasons: (1) J.J., being the man of the house, finally matured (he rarely if ever said "dy-no-mite" anymore) and didn't act the fool like he did in the show's earlier seasons, quite convincingly taking over as head of the house particularly during the season in which Rolle was temporarily written out of the series; and (2) the show's focus expanded, primarily because the writers found other kinds of stories to write besides the latest chapter in how poor are the Evanses (I'll never forget my father refusing to watch anymore because he got sick of episodes with James coming home confident he'd finally found the right job only to be devastated yet again by episode's end). Again, nothing against John Amos, who was wonderful (plus it was nice to see a black father on TV raising his children, which was a rare sight), but just saying James no longer being there did provide the series with a few unexpected benefits.

I also always heard Carroll O'Connor was a lovely man and the complete opposite of his famous character, though there was (allegedly) the time he got pissed off at Sally Struthers for doing the show "Gloria" without consulting him first. If that story was true, I thought it bizarre that he would make such a demand on her.

I'm R11 but I forgot about Mary Hartman and Fernwood Tonight. They were wonderful.

I worked recently with a lady named Brenda Hartman. I called her Brenda Hartman, Brenda Hartmann. No one got it.

No one knows anything now.

r49, I think that second "n" is throwing everyone off. Try it without it.

^^ I believe the 2nd "n" is silent

When one lives as long as Lear, there are probably many who can claim he may have been an ass a few times... Most of us probably are guilty of it. Amazingly talented man, and as R35 mentioned People For The American Way is a great organisation. We need MORE protection from religion in this country. He was very prescient seeing what would come of Fallwell and The Moral Majority. Lear has always been very pro-gay before it became trendy.

R47, O'Connor guested in the "Archie Bunker's Place" back-door pilot episode that launched "Gloria," so he couldn't have been all that and about it.

Re. Three’s Company and The Ropers: according to E True Hollywood Story and the unauthorized bio flick, the deal was that Norman Fell and Audra Lindley (sp) could return to TC if the spin off didn’t last longer than one season. The Ropers ran for a season and a half, so they couldn’t return to TC.

[quote]Well....Adrienne wasn't very good.

What does it matter when I had THESE

Anyone who likes John Amos should listen to his appearance on Gilbert gottfrieds podcast “Gilbert gottfrieds amazing colossal podcast.” He talks on and on about his career including his iconic macdonalds commercial before he was a star. It’s pure, concentrated entertainment.

Nice or guy asshole, Lear’s shows were groundbreaking. They changed TV from a world of Lucy and the Bradys and Beaver Cleaver to a reflection of what was really going on, and his shows made it clear that television entertainment can really advance social progress. Lear played a major role in forcing open dialogue between the covert Archies and Meatheads of the country, shows like Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda and Kate and Allie and Murphy Brown, Designing Women and Golden Girls positioned women as equal human beings, and I don’t think gay rights would have advanced at all without gay characters showing up in homes via television. Even if it was via a minstrel-y Will and Grace, it took away fear people had of the unknown. Norman Lear is the pioneer of using TV to do that.

Groundbreaking in the USA perhaps - but you know he just copied All in the Family from the British sitcom Till Death Us Do Part?

It had been a huge hit in Britain. And it was considered revolutionary too - in that it wasn’t just nice, model families in nice, model houses - but vary fallible people who weren’t always nice to each other. It pushed the limits. I’m guessing Lear was just the quickest off the mark adapting his copycat version to the American situation - and if he hadn’t - someone else would have done it.

But did it lead to progress or SJWs and gender identity? (The destruction of progress).

R59 I didn’t know that and I do believe it. Still, I have been told by many British people that we Americans are a special kind of racist and discriminatory, and Lear’s shows really did help to advance conversations that led to action.

His classic sitcoms, which tried so hard to be so current, are horribly dated.

While I Love Lucy, the Dick VanDyke Show and the Andy Griffith Show are timeless classics.

I remember my teenaged babysitter relished sitting at our house because she could watch All in the Family and other show that were forbidden in her home.

My parents would let us watch anything.

Does the Roseanne reboot/spin-off have any hope of getting a few people to look at one another in the eyes again?

R62 - to be fair though - when a sitcom or drama’s strength is dealing with issues that are topical and important at the time they’re made - then of course they’ll date and seem less funny or relevant as years go by.

I think that All in the Family’s biggest innovation was - like the UK original - in showcasing some genuinely unpleasant people in a way that hadn’t been done before. It allowed viewers at home to see people that reflected people they knew (or were!) in real life.

The other ‘timeless’ comedies you mention seem to me like insects stuck in amber. They’re perfectly pleasant little artefacts portraying what I imagine people wanted themselves - and America to be - rather than what they really were.

But constant inoffensive blandness of that just bores me after too long.

Well, you must be happy now because all that is on TV now is the grotesque.

Isabel Sanford could be a real prick. She was quite nasty and judgemental when she found out that Sherman Hemsley, her TV husband on The Jeffersons, was gay in real life. She was also involved in a homophobic skit that I saw on a variety show. She definitely wasn't as nice as people thought.

R61, you do not have to "believe it." The closing credits of All in the Family say that it is adapted from Till Death Do Us Part.

And Sanford and Son is based on Steptoe and Son. Again, no need for belief--Lear credited the original and paid for the rights.

[quote]Still, I have been told by many British people that we Americans are a special kind of racist and discriminatory,

All institutions planted here by the British. And if you want to see Supreme racism in its purest form, look no further than the Raj.

You probably also have to take into account a bit of an ego from John Amos. When Good Times started he believed that he and Estelle would be the stars of the show but the audience was reacting to the JJ character more positively and Jimmy Walker became the star. As the creator of the show do you think Norman Lear would put up with the grousing, behind the scenes, from John and Estelle? Especially after what 2-3 seasons?

R26 The Facts of Life did and yes it's a Norman Lear show, he opted for his production company to take the credit for the show

He talks about Facts in his autobiography and discovery Geri Jewell (Cousin Jeri)

Facts of Life has aged well.

If The Facts of Life was a good show, why did they all get fat?

Norman Lear has since said that he did not appreciate the weight that John Amos and Esther Rolle felt in terms of representing a black family.

Had the show had a writing staff headed by black writers, this would not have been an issue.

But JJ got that catch phrase and the show followed it for ratings.

R73 Simply a case of the 2 leads being as mad as wet hens when the second banana keeps on stealing the show.

R73 exactly. I am curious if Andy Griffith felt any jealousy toward Don Knotts. Since Barney often stole the show from Andy.

Like it or not , what Jimmie did on the show could be hilarious at times. I think they probably went a little overboard on the dynomite thing, but Walker injected some levity into the sitcom when the show could have been quite the downer about a family living in the projects.

I see, r73 and r74, that you are at the same point in your conceptualization of race and mass media as Norman Lear was 40 years ago.

Long ago, I used to think that most gay men had better insight i to race than the general population. I learned years ago that this isn’t true at all. And I get endless reminders of it.

Just because many of us like to talk like black ladies does not mean we are like black ladies.

Re the Ropers. While they were correct in that their contract stated they could not return to 3C if their show ran more than one season, the producers were thrilled because they were able to bring in Don Knotts who everyone loved and also had one salary instead of two. Since Audra and Norman started with the show, their numbers would have risen with each season so they were glad The Ropers lasted long enough to keep them off the show. Did ABC also have something to do with it? Audra and Norman thought so.

Jimmie Walker was the Twacy Mo'gan of his generation. And that is NOT a compliment.

I'd rather watch Dick Van Dyke, Batman, Beaver, The Beverly Hillbillies, Burns and Allen, Andy Griffith, I Love Lucy, Bewitched with Dick York, or Green Acres any day over a Norman Lear sitcom.

Lear didn't teach me anything I didn't already know about people. You can argue that sociologically he had a major influence on the American psyche but that means nothing to me when I watch TV.

R60 it did lead to progress in the 70s, which unfortunately didn't last. The current climate is a long-term product of the '80s, '90s, and early '00s, decades which largely ignored, warped, or reversed the initial messages inherent in the '70s Lear shows.

R69 R73. John and Esther were the stars. The kids were secondary and should have been kept under control. It's embarrassing to watch those episodes now and to compare those which focus on the team of Amos and Rolle playing quality parents under trying circumstances, vs Walker milking the "Fonzie effect" with mugging and cheap antics.

It would've been so much better to keep John and Esther happy by keeping Walker under tight rein, so that his talent was used judiciously throughout the show's run, instead of just letting his schtick run wild to permeate every corner of the set.

The only sitcom from then that I can watch now is The Jeffersons.

Racists loved All In The Family.

R85 racists who loved All in the Family took Archie seriously and were too stupid to know they were being ridiculed.

[quote] Maude had a good supporting cast, but again, too much screaming. Well....Adrienne wasn't very good.

You could 𝘯𝘰𝘵 have had better support then.Adrienne.

That one season that Esther Rolle was written off the show, wasn't it also due to her long-simmering disapproval of J.J.? If so, I'm actually surprised they brought her back for the final season (given what they did to John Amos), but perhaps they figured getting rid of both parents permanently would've been a bit much for the audience to take. I know it was also rumored that Rolle and Jimmie Walker did not really get along (primarily because he was offended about how she criticized his character), though I'm not sure about his relationship with Amos.

R86 same for Maude, it was a spoof on extreme liberals

Lear spoofed conservatives with AITF and now he was spoofing libs with Maude

I always laughed when everytime a big race related crisis popped up on Maude, Maude would slam her first and scream, " I'm a LIBERAL, these are my people "! regarding blacks. Sounds like the SJW liberals of today

"racists who loved All in the Family took Archie seriously and were too stupid to know they were being ridiculed"

The late, great Warren Mitchell, who played Alf Garnet in 'Til Death Us Do Part, openly said that to people who thought that Alf was some kind of working class hero...

R13 , Lear loved Bea. She let him suck Her Cock...just kidding.

Jimmie Walker is a hole. He came where I worked and memoes were passed, that Under no circumstances were we To ask him to say DY NO MITE. Waited on him and several members of the GT cast. He was the only rude one.

FOL may have aged well , but Lisa Whelchel Is a *itch.

[quote]I’m guessing Lear was just the quickest off the mark adapting his copycat version to the American situation - and if he hadn’t - someone else would have done it.

It took several pilots and several years for All in the Family to make it to the network schedule. No network wanted to touch it for quite a while. Even when CBS approved it, it was only for a half season because they thought it would bomb.

If Norman Lear said any of those things that OP notes, what's so terrible? Not only was he the boss but his own name is on the product he's promoting, so he knows exactly what he's looking for. Not every conversation with your employees is a pleasant one. If Isabel didn't want to jump at the chance of staring in her own show as a spinoff of All In The Family, Norman was right to say "we'll find someone else."

R88 Esther disapproved of the stereotypical one parent black family, so she left the show. She had more approval over the scripts when she returned. Plus I think she realized she probably made a mistake leaving a high paying job. I’m sure the network wanted to get the ratings back up with Rolle returning too but it was never to be. They really shot themselves in the foot by firing John Amos. Jimmie Walker has gone on record as saying John Amos and Esther Rolle barely said two sentences to him offset.

We saw Norman and Bea seated together after watching a show at studio one in weho, we walked over and spoke to Bea, she was very sweet

Barbeau was one of the most genuinely nice actors I ever met and she has "Call me Billie, everyone does" cred for eternity.

Al Burton said that working in FACTS OF LIFE was his most pleasant experience on the Lear shows as opposed to Good Times, where he said "everyone was always fighting".

Burton said that One Day at a Time and Diff'rent Strokes were plagued by narcotics and could be stressful at times

Bump.

[quote] One Day at a Time and Diff'rent Strokes were plagued by narcotics and could be stressful at times

That's news to us.

God'll getcha for that!

And now, in the Norman Lear tradition,

He's just another trans-enabling hetero male interloper as far as I'm concerned.

R59 It went back and forth between the UK and US. Lear adapted All In The Family and Sanford and Son, from the UK originals, then the British turned Good Times into The Fosters, Britain's first black led sitcom with Lenny Henry in the JJ role and Maude was turned into Nobody's Perfect starring Elaine Stritch.

In addition, Maude's most successful version was in France, where it was adapted as Maguy and ran for 333 episodes and 8 seasons.

R103: Fascinating! I always wondered if Maude had ever been adapted or Good Times for that matter. Thanks!

R102: Die a wicked death, you retard.

Carol O'Connor would be 96 today. He was born in 1924.

Think of that next time you see a person in their 90s.

^What?

R5 that is no different than the people blaming gun deaths on the manufacturers, Perdue for the opioid crisis, or a bar for a drunk driving accident. Except for the fact that those people are engaged in legal legitimate businesses, whereas drug dealers are not.

R105 The strange thing about O’Connor is that he looked younger on In the Heat of the Night, in the late 1980s-90s, than he did on All in the Family around 20 years earlier.

There is absolutely nothing wrong about Lear’s response to Isabel Sanford.

Norman Lear was and is a homophobic nigger lover.

Carroll O'Connor and Jean Stapleton looked like a rough and tired early 60s when All In the Family started. It's shocking that they were only in their 40s.

Hell, 60 year-olds today don't look like those two did back then.

Producers usually are assholes, so what about Lear. People for the American Way did more for gay marriage than those corporate suckups at HRC---the ACLU also deserves credit. Lear broke ground at a time when syrupy drek like Family Affair and Brady Bunch were on the air. Whether the shows are "timeless" or not is irrelevant.

O'Connor didn't blame the drug dealer specifically for Hugh's addiction. Hugh had many drug dealers long before the last one. He blamed that specific guy for contributing to his addiction and helping to facilitate Hugh's suicide. And rightly so.

He sounds like a typical tv executive; everything is about money and ratings. Of course he couldn't care less about the actors and actresses.

Carroll O'Connor was no "sweetheart." He came across as a big asshole. On the Tonight Show he told the audience that the first All In The Family episode of the new tv season would begin by showing Archie "making love to another woman." The audience gasped. Of course that was utter bullshit. Archie, lonely because Edith is spending so much time away from home doing volunteer work, goes to visit an attractive waitress from a diner he frequents. He kisses her. And that was all. They were weren't "making love" all all. I though it was shitty of him to lie to the audience like that.

What you don't understand R114 is that the term "making love" in those days didn't automatically mean "having sex". Most any form of romantic activity was considered making love.

The only consistently good show of his was The Jeffersons. It was the only one where people didn't scream and slam doors.

But even The Jeffersons went a bit to the dark side. Remember the episode where Florence was planning to kill herself? I think it was because they were tearing down her building and she didn't have anywhere to go.

R116 George was always screaming & slamming the front door on someone.

Weezy, Florence & Lionel even did it at times.

r118, yes he would slam the front door in people's faces, but not because he was angry with someone. It was just his way of saying, "I'm done talking." When he did it, it was funny. On Good Times, you could turn the sound completely off and still hear them screaming at each other and slamming doors.

R34 Weezy could be both a jerk & mean. Here she does both in under a minute =

His LA house is listed for sale at $35 million. It has a massive underground garage. The cars it contains leave something to be desired.

Teardown.

John Amos' talent was most wasted. Give him a good role and he could knock it out of the park

"What you don't understand [R114] is that the term "making love" in those days didn't automatically mean "having sex". Most any form of romantic activity was considered making love."

"In those days?" It was the seventies, not the 1800s. And anyone saying "making love" in the seventies would sure as hell mean fucking. O'Connor was lying to the audience; he knew they would think he would be in bed with another woman and was hoping the viewing audience would be huge. He was an ass for doing that.

The Jeffersons holds up over the years, IMO.

I didn't used to like Mother Jefferson because she was so mean to Louise. But in retrospect, she (Mother J) was hilarious.

[quote]I didn't used to like Mother Jefferson because she was so mean to Louise. But in retrospect, she (Mother J) was hilarious.

She is funny. But there was a bit of a problem with the characterization. It was too "Jewish mother". Jewish mothers act that way towards their sons (love them like they could do no wrong and don't think any woman is good enough for their prince). Black mothers aren't like that.

Imagine if social media had existed back then, Amos would have gotten unanimous support.

"While I Love Lucy, the Dick Van Dyke Show and the Andy Griffith Show are timeless classics."

I am laughing at you like a high school girl laughing at Carrie's menstruation in gym class.

Hah!

No, but seriously all three of those shows are horribly dated. What 1950's/60s fantasy snow globe bubble are you living in? Early dementia? Age appropriate dementia?

[quote]No, but seriously all three of those shows are horribly dated. What 1950's/60s fantasy snow globe bubble are you living in? Early dementia? Age appropriate dementia?

They're good shows because they don't require anything from you. You can sit and laugh at those shows and not have to think. All of the Lear shows were political. From Maude screaming about women's rights to Michael spouting black statistics. Lear shows were tiresome. Give me Lucy getting drunk on vitamin water any day of the week.

The character of James Evans on "Good Times" was essential to the show: a strong father figure, which most of the kid denizens of the ghetto didn't have. It set the Evans apart that way, their close-knit family unit. The show went to shit after James Evans was eliminated.

[quote]The show went to shit after James Evans was eliminated.

Excuse me??? When that fat ass left the show, I took my rightful place as the lead. It should have been the Willona Show from the start. After all, the show was called "GOOD TIMES" and I was the only one having a good time. Did any audience member ever yell out, "Slap her, James?" No, I do not think so. I, on the other hand, created a meme.

John Amos has a brief cameo in "Uncut Gems".

John Amos was also Gordy on the Mary Tyler Moore Show. If MTM had any sense, she would have had an episode where she dated Gordy.

Louise getting her revenge on Mother Jefferson

The best thing they did for Isabel Sanford was to change her hairstyle. That pulled back hair never looked good on her. She looked much better when it was let down and styled.

"The best thing they did for Isabel Sanford was to change her hairstyle. That pulled back hair never looked good on her. She looked much better when it was let down and styled."

After the Jefferson "moved on up" Louise obviously had the money to go the the beauty parlor regularly. On "All In The Family" she didn't have that luxury.

[quote]On "All In The Family" she didn't have that luxury.

She didn't have running water and shampoo? Yes, the beauty parlor helped her when she became rich, but she herself could have styled her hair better. It was just a poor choice by the hair stylist on the show. She would have fared much better if they gave her the same hair style as Jean Stapleton. That pulled back look did her no favors.

In published interviews John Amos explicitly states he wasn't always the "easiest person to get along with" during Good Times period of career.

That being said both he and Ester Rolle took increasing issue with focus on Jimmy Walker's character (James Junior) and his minstrel buffoon behavior. They felt show should give equal weight or at least more focus to the other two Evan's children who had aspirations (lawyer, etc...) that would get them out of the hood. Mr. John Amos constantly butted heads with the all white script writers, directors, etc.. (very common for the time) who were creating basically what he (and other AAs) saw as a white stereotype of what African-American inner city neighborhoods and households were like. Mr. Amos having come out of Newark, NJ knew what he was talking about.

An imposing man in both height and build, coupled with his seemingly "aggressive" behavior literally scared white script writers, and others on show who felt threatened.

In the end by firing Mr. John Amos Good Times became exactly what whites were complaining about in media and elsewhere, another AA family being raised by a single mother. This period of time (1970's) was full of hate against "welfare queens" (who always were depicted as AA women) that were single mothers having babies for no other reason than to get those checks. Welfare reform sprang out of that stereotype when ironically places like Appalachia had just as or equally high rates of poverty, welfare, etc... But that was mostly poor whites, so people gave them a pass.

In end even Ms. Ester Rolle left GT for a bit equally disgusted, but came back towards the end.

YouTube has a lot of "Archive of American Television" interviews with the casts of "The Jeffersons," "Good Times," etc. So much good stuff.

Isabel Sanford should have called Lear's bluff. She had excellent chemistry with Sherman Hemsley. She neutralized his queeny acting style and would have been impossible to replace.

In All In The Family, wasn't there another black man playing George's brother? Were they introduced on the same episode or did Hemsley come later as George?

R126

You obviously don't know many AA mothers of sons, or any other nationalistically for that matter. Jewish mothers do not have any special lock on being hateful towards their daughters in law. Marie Romano (Everybody Loves Raymond) was an insufferable hag towards Debra Romano, and she was supposedly Italian-American.

There are plenty of meddlesome, quarrelsome, nosy, bossy, and nasty mothers out there of all races, creeds, and colors that just don't know their place when it comes to their son's wives.

I think A**hole is a little harsh. He was definitely a Meathead and a Dingbat!

Few knew then or know now that Mr. Carroll O'Connor was totally nothing like Archie Bunker. The guy was cultured, educated, well traveled and had quite liberal politics.

However as a native Irishman New Yorker, Mr. O'Connor knew where Archie Bunker was coming from; like so many white working to middle class white males of the time AB was watching a world he knew slowly change.

[quote] Isabel Sanford should have called Lear's bluff.

I think I know what you're talking about. My understanding is that Lear wanted to spin-off "The Jeffersons" from "All in the Family." Sanford told Lear, "I'd rather stay on 'All in the Family,'" because AITF was a hit show and Sanford didn't want to gamble with a spin-off. Lear then said, we're doing "The Jeffersons" with or without you.

IMO, the time was ripe for a spin-off. The Jeffersons characters (neighbors) weren't on "All in the Family" that often. It wasn't like when Rhoda left Mary Tyler Moore and you really missed Rhoda the neighbor while watching MTM.

Therefore, I think Lear made a good decision and was being honest with Sanford. If Sanford had said no, I'm not going, I do think Lear would have found a replacement actress. Would the replacement have been as funny as Sanford? I don't know.

R25, the Carol in the pilot was too much like Maude. They wanted to go in another direction.

OG Carol was Marcia Rodd and she's still acting; she did an ep. of Grey's Anatomy this year.

Good Times and The Jeffersons were two sides of same coin. They were shows that whites could watch from the safety of their suburban homes or whatever and not feel threatened about "blacks" getting above their place. Mr. Norman Lear and the largely Jewish (if not white) writers, directors and so forth made sure of this; neither show was threatening to major status quo. And anytime things got too hot; JJ or George Jefferson would do some clown/buffoon act that caused laughter. This not only broke the tension but again reassured certain audiences things were still going their way.

R144

Spin off shows are notoriously dangerous; just look how the Ropers played out. So it isn't surprising Ms. Sanford wanted to stick to what she knew.

R136

Mrs. Louise Jefferson's hairstyle was simply a "press and curl" that many AA women wore regardless of if they did their hair themselves, or had someone else do it (beautician or someone's kitchen).

Isabel Sanford wore similar hairstyle as maid in "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner".

For those not blessed with "good hair" (think Lena Horne), AA women have long suffered about their hair. In 1970's it was same as 1960's, 1950's and before, common way was hair would be washed, dried (somehow), then pressed with hot comb, then curled with Marcel iron. This being time consuming (and rather damaging to hair due to all that heat), would be done once every week, two, or even longer.

African-women actresses and other performers on stage, screen and television suffered from same hair related issues as whites; damage caused by endless filming under hot lights.

As a supporting character on All in the Family it is highly unlikely they brought in a hairdresser with experience on AA hair just for Louise Jefferson, so things were done best they could.

On her own show things were different as The Jeffersons became established. Louise Jefferson went from press and curl to relaxed hair that was washed and set. You saw this with Marla Gibbs (Florence) and Roxie Roker (Helen Willis), who alternated from press and curl (their own hair), to relaxed hair that was blown dried and curled or washed and set, and or wigs.

Nearly all hairstyle changes for Isabel Stanford on the Jeffersons were wigs. This again likely to protect her own hair from harsh conditions on set, and because wearing hair is easier than coping with various issues related to AA hair.

Furthermore if you watch opening of Jeffersons , Louise didn't go to beauty parlor; but washed and set her hair at home. George bursts into the kitchen while his wife is under the dryer in opening credits.

Besides in the 1970's Louise Jefferson wouldn't have found a beauty parlor on UES that did "black" hair. Maybe in mid-town, down town or perhaps some part of UWS. Otherwise she would have had to go up to Harlem or some other area of NYC

Claudia Lamb, who played Heather Hartman, has nothing but good things to say about Norman Lear, and she is very outspoken about people she doesn't like.

R124 you're clearly too fucking dumb to understand that Carol O'Connor was born in the 20s. His vocabulary (even in the 70s) reflected the earlier years of his life. So, your attempt to sully his memory demonstrates what a lowlife child you are.

[quote] you're clearly too fucking dumb to understand that Carol O'Connor

ooh, let's just maybe stop that sentence right there.

All in the Family wasn't afraid to address topical issues. "The Draft Dodger" episode was one of their finest and O'Connor's acting was never better. It aired right after the Vietnam War.

Agree, r153. And it was an abomination when Harrelson did it recently.

[quote]In All In The Family, wasn't there another black man playing George's brother? Were they introduced on the same episode or did Hemsley come later as George?

Yes, r140. Lear wanted Hemsley to play George but he was doing a play and was committed. Lear decided he’d wait that out and in the meantime introduce George’s brother, Henry.

It really doesn’t make much sense why Henry would be living with them, but I guess it’s possible.

[quote] It really doesn’t make much sense why Henry would be living with them, but I guess it’s possible.

But then Henry was never mentioned when the Jeffersons got their own show.

True, r156.

His shows were rip-offs of British comedies. Next.

[quote] Since when were people expected to be nice all the time?

Since when doesn’t anyone want to be treated any way other than nicely. Treat others poorly if you choose. However, don’t show here complaining; when you get treated like shit.

O'Connor is one of the great actors of our time. Few actors had the range he had. He played 'em all. Any man born and raised in New York City who could play a small town Mississippi police chief with the absolute perfection he did on "In The Heat Of The Night" should be given every accolade available.

Jon Voight played a TEXAN in Midnight Cowboy-very convincingly and he was from Yonkers, New York.

Little late to the party R58

Very good points made by mature individuals upthread about that. You might want to entertain the non-simpleton approach.

Everything I've read about Carroll O'Conner says he was a great guy. Sweet man; big liberal. He gave a lot of money to causes and his college. He worked his way through school.

R154, I thought Woody's impersonation was awful; and schticky. Granted, it's not an enviable task.

Tomei surprised me; she captured Edith without making it look stupid.

[quote] Everything I've read about Carroll O'Conner

Evidently you didn’t read enough.

[quote] What you don't understand [[R114]] is that the term "making love" in those days didn't automatically mean "having sex". Most any form of romantic activity was considered making love.

I thought it referred to the butt sex.

I preferred Louise with the pulled back hairstyle- she seemed much more earthy and relatable than the uppity Louise who was always telling Florence to make her a cup of coffee.

[quote] He talks about Facts in his autobiography and discovery Geri Jewell (Cousin Jeri)

Norman Lear adored her. There was talk about him giving Geri Jewell her own series.

[quote] There was talk about him giving Geri Jewell her own series.

He had to have known a Jewell show never would’ve blown up.

R167, Louise was never like that. It was significant that they always made Louise never forgot where she came from. In the famous maids' union episode, they maids start airing their grievances and Louise jumps up and yells "down with the bosses."

Maude was before my time, but I've caught a few reruns over the years. It's so weird to see Bea Arthur and Rue McClanahan together, and they're not Dorothy and Blanche.

Yeah and Rue on Maude was so different from Golden Girls r171. At least Bea had those comebacks like she did on GG so it wasn't so different.

"You're clearly too fucking dumb to understand that Carol O'Connor was born in the 20s. His vocabulary (even in the 70s) reflected the earlier years of his life. So, your attempt to sully his memory demonstrates what a lowlife child you are."

Oh, shut up, you ass. O'Connor was just trying to dupe the audience into believing that they'd see Archie Bunker boinking another woman on the show, and would hence watch the episode in droves. And as for "fucking dumb"...well, since you can't even spell your idol's name right I'd say you have the intelligence of a flea, you poor idiot.

All In The Family was THE FUNNIEST show of the 1970's. Many DL QUEENS adore The Mary Tyler Moore Show. It was a fairly good show at times but NEVER hilarious like AITF.

Mr. Caroll O'Connor did all he could to help his Heat of The Night co-star Howard Rollins, but it was a lost cause.

Having dealt with his own son's substance abuse issues, Mr. O'Conner tried his best to save his co-star, cross dressing and all. But it was all for naught.

R149, they had the money for Weezy to get her hair done anywhere she needed.

OP, what do you think happens in any business situation when an employee 1) is told that the department they're in is being transferred to another place and they say "But I want to stay right here"? or 2) gives an interview in a national publication strongly criticizing the company?

Pretty much exactly what you described Lear doing. In the first case, telling the employee they don't have to go, but if they don't go they will be replaced. In the latter case, firing the employee who aired his grievances.

It may or not be fair, but it's how the world works. Why should the entertainment industry be different from any other industry?

Not an asshole, he just knew his worth (as did Carroll O’Connor, so they were very evenly matched). Nothing wrong with that.

And give him that he’s just shy of 100 years old, worth north of $200 million, and is still working and creating and passionate about what’s going on in the world. And it sure isn’t because he needs the money.

We should all be such “assholes.”

Even as a kid I thought the interracial marriage of the Willis' on The Jefferson's was a stretch. In real life, why would a hot black woman like Roxie Roker fall for a fat, pasty white guy like Franklin Cover?

R179

Have you seen some of the men Naomi Campbell rolls around with? Not just now even, but going back to when she was at height of her career.

Bullshit R66. Sanford and Hemsley were close and he took her death pretty hard.

"Even as a kid I thought the interracial marriage of the Willis' on The Jefferson's was a stretch. In real life, why would a hot black woman like Roxie Roker fall for a fat, pasty white guy like Franklin Cover?"

The original Tom and Helen Willis (their first appearance was in an AITF episode called "Lionel's Engagement") were played by Charles Aidman and Kim Hamilton. They were a handsome couple; he was a nice looking man and she was beautiful. As played by Roxie Roker and Franklin Cover they were very different; they were meant to be comedic characters, so they both were kind of funny looking. Cover was fat and buffoonish. Roxie, while not unattractive, was not nearly as good looking as Kim Hamilton and her character was made to look ridiculous. They were very different from the originals.

The original Jenny was Lynn Moody. She too was much better looking than the actress who played her on the tv show, Berlinda Tolbert.

[quote]Even as a kid I thought the interracial marriage of the Willis' on The Jefferson's was a stretch. In real life, why would a hot black woman like Roxie Roker fall for a fat, pasty white guy like Franklin Cover?

The theme song was "Moving On Up." He could get her a de-luxe apartment in the skyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

For me, it was a bit weird. I had seen lots of white women with black men, but in real life, I had never seen a black woman with a white man.

R179

Then you need to get out more, and or whatever, because scores of "hot" and other black women have dallied with and or married white men.

Halle Berry, Lena Horne, Dorothy Dandridge, Iman, Naomi Campbell, are just a few names that come to mind.

Early on it was Jewish men such as Edgar Bronfman, Jr. who didn't give fuck and married where their hearts told them, but since then plenty of others have followed.

While GB is a bit slow off mark, elsewhere in Europe such as France or even Germany white men with black women is common enough.

Ironically while it was Loving v. Virginia that helped bring down anti-SSM laws in USA, the gay community overall still is largely segregated by race when it comes to marriage and dating.

Yes, you have guys like Mario Cantone and a few others white gay guys who date and or marry AA men, but largely the numbers of snow queens looking for a white husband/partner vastly out weighs guys willing to commit to that sort of relationship.

The only white girls I see with black guys are real bottom-rung white trash girls. They're unfuckable to white guys.

[quote]While GB is a bit slow off mark, elsewhere in Europe such as France or even Germany white men with black women is common enough.

GB is slow off the mark? I can name three British white actors who have black wives. And that's just off the top of my head without even thinking.

Martin Compston

Will Mellor

Harry Windsor

Harry Windsor is an actor?

R186

Men on the continent were dating and marrying "black" women without much of a noise going back to 1960's if not before.

OTOH for GB interracial marriage was something that upset the apple cart in many circles until rather recently, and for some still does. Would think the example of the Markle woman would tell you something.

Your list is of men who married rather recently, say within past decade or so; but here is another; Geoffrey Streatfeild

Then you have Ceawlin Thynn - see link

[quote]Harry Windsor is an actor?

Yes, he is playing the part of Spoiled Royal in the hit show House of Windsor.

I love Norman Lear. He gave us the most fascinating TV characters ever. And I loved his interview about the Facts of Life pilot. He made Cindy gay questioning. He had to keep it all under the radar so that the network would let the episode fly. But he said that, in the scene where Mrs. Garrett hugged Cindy and told her not to change a thing about herself, he hoped that gay kids would identify with Cindy and be reassured by Mrs. Garrett's love and words.

Isabel Sanford was 20+ years older than Sherman H.

Drama surrounding Sherman Hemsley after death.

But wait, there's more...