Time to Find Another Country

My husband has Irish citizenship. We are figuring out our options.

I don't know... I'm stuck. In a blue state, however.

DO NOT SURRENDER! Our constitution, our laws, our allies are still here. We did not come this far, through so much pain to turn tail because we are discouraged and disappointed. This is our turn to fight, to win and to move forward.

Get back to us when you've actually done anything, R1.

I am staying here and fighting.

[quote]Time to Find Another Country. Where the hell should we go, DL?

No one's going anywhere.

...in a hand basket

The problem is, OP, that there is nowhere in this world where you can get completely away fom America.

If Trump and his minions keep up their rampage of destruction, that will certainly change over the next 10 years or so, but until then, no place is safe.

I think you meant to say “I have chosen to stay and fight.”

How about Russia? Why don’t we just take over, remove the ridiculous clown in charge, and make it into the # 1 gay metropolis?

I’m an American living in Germany. Every country is going through it’s shit, and cutting and running isn’t the solution (I plan on moving back to the US soon).

[QUOTE]How about Russia?

Oh god, no. Have you even seen Russia?

Canada's too cold.

Scandinavia is too expensive.

The UK will become poor after Brexit.

France and Italy are too strike-bound.

Mexico and Central America are too violent.

Eastern Europe is run by Fascists.

Looks like I may as well live here.

I’d love to move to the Netherlands. But, don’t speak the language

Canada? At least they have universal healthcare

[quote]The UK will become poor after Brexit.

and affordable for Americans.

I get how you are feeling OP, but things will NEVER improve if a lot of liberals leave the country. On top of that the United States is such a powerful country there is no where you can move that you won't feel in some degree the effects of that power.

If you want to move then consider moving if you live in a drastically blue state to a toss-up or even a red state. If more people living in very blue states would move where their votes actually count for something, you could actually change things for the better.

I’m prepared to riot

Riots will accomplish nothing.

The America we know and love simply doesn’t exist anymore.

Australia or NZ

California!

Calexit.

Caribbean: too homophobic and hurricane-prone.

Germany: Neo-Fascist takeover coming soon.

Portugal: Madonna is there.

Spain: breaking apart.

Argentina and Brazil: economies in chaos.

Japan: too cutesy and crowded.

You may as well live in the USA.

Nah, R21. Suicide.

It is time to leave. There's no point staying around in Trump's America.

I'm thinking either Canada, despite the cold.

Or Costa Rica, which is cheap and pretty.

But America is over.

This is NOT Trump’s America and it never will be. We’re taking our country back soon enough and the orange shitstain will go to jail.

My plan is to find the easiest country to move to by marrying a citizen and do it. I have a considerable amount of money saved up so I'm planning to buy a spouse. My family can visit me if they wish. I will NEVER return after the Nazis take over the supreme court. The US is doomed for generations. And voting won't help because the suckpreme court has already taken care of that by approving gerrymandered white supremacy. Time to arm yourselves. I'll be long gone from this shit hole country.

I want to live a country with very little religion: no Islam or Christianity. That’s it.

We can take back the White House, but we can’t take back the Supreme Court, R24. Once you lose it, it’s gone for decades.

R27, so what? Should we all just jump out of a window now? Dems need to block the SC vote. Merrick Garland, anyone?

They blocked Garland for a year. And it was headed by Mitch McConnell, the biggest motherfucker of them all. They’d have to block Trump’s picks for two years. And Dems don’t have any balls.

R29, Dems have huge balls. They just need to put their books down for a second and remember to grab them.

We will be ok, guys.

Israel of course. They have such a booming economy. Never mind the trillion dollars in American aid.

[quote]We will be ok, guys.

I loved Another Country... and spent the rest of my life in it...

Actually, our toughest Democrat has a pussy. The woman knows how to fight and she was right about everything.

Ireland has been looking better and better lately.

When I was coming up, Act Up was causing all kinds of trouble.

I'm afraid now it's time to return to that game plan. Yell, point, march and resist. Call them out. Not only the Trumps, but Nancy Pelosi and the other cowards.

It might not be pretty, but it is very effective. Resist, don't run. If we sit by quietly we'll end up the country we deserve.

I'm not ready to give up. I hope I'm not alone.

If you are going to riot, do it where rich people live.

I would like to live in Coasta Rica but I could never learn Spanish.

I kind of saw it coming but I always hoped that we would never actually have a fascist leader.

[quote]Portugal: Madonna is there.

Much needed laugh. Thanks.

Working on my Portuguese citizenship. Getting my parents birth certificates has been a little bit of a hassle but Portugal is nice.

[quote] My husband has Irish citizenship. We are figuring out our options.

Similar...thinking about moving to EU

Why do people assume they can just pack up and move to another country? Most countries have very strict immigration laws and THEY DON'T WANT YOU.

I don’t assume that, R41. I think my best chance is to find an Irish man to marry.

But the Irish do not wash down there.

[quote]Actually, our toughest Democrat has a pussy. The woman knows how to fight and she was right about everything.

Forgive me, but who do you mean?

Datalounge's hero, R44.

The gay man’s hero.

Hilarious how most of you bitches are picking places that are 90+% white...

How brave of you, OP. Go ahead, run away you immature coward.

I am R47. That’s the truth. Sorry, but no Trump supporters, Arabs or blacks. They simply don’t gays.

*like

I thought it might be her. I was thinking maybe the poster meant Pelosi.

Follow the yellow brick road.

Canada?l, Mexico? Sweden.. or I’ll join some of you in Costa Rica

OP- If you wish to suspend disbelief, according to astrology the US will cease to be the world's main superpower and policeman by the mid 2020s. Who will take over, China? Nope, it's going to become enmeshed in its own problems in the late 2020s. Who is the next superpower? No one, but Poland is predicted to do very well, so perhaps move next door to Germany and lie in wait.

Or you can just work on making your voice heard here.

I'm not going anywhere!!! Stay and fight, don't let this trashy group of carpetbaggers run you out of your country!!

As long as the deplorables and other trash keep having too many kids, it'll never get better. This is the beginning of the end.

i am too old to move anywhere else. i still have protest fatigue from the late 70's and 80's..... i am too tired to fight. worn the fuck out. there are assholes everywhere, it just seems like most of them are here and adore this pant load in the WH. so sick of all of it. he has damaged so many people. now, i would be a part of a class action suit if we can sue the son of a bitch for severe emotional distress, depression, anxiety and destruction of souls. THAT?

I'm in.

Deplorables are actually having fewer kids.

Wait until the tariffs hit and then see how things pan out. GOP voters won't be so happy about Trump once they have to pay $10 for a cauliflower or $20 for a shoe lace. The big sting will be felt once Canada imposes $16B worth of tariffs on July 1. Once that eats into those "tax cuts", there's no telling what those mid terms will look like.

Trump has inadvertently set up a Perfect Storm. Tariffs to start the ball rolling on tanking the economy. Keeping out migrants....who work the farms. Farmers aren't going to plant if they know there won't be any of those "Mexican rapists" to pick come harvest time. Food prices skyrocket. Immigration policies to make it less likely that foreign students will want to study in the US....thereby denying universities and colleges the larger tuition money that foreign students have to pay. Baby boomers are aging, meaning they're going to start getting sicker. Less money for health care means less money for all those older Trump supporters health care and you can't vote if you're dead.

This could end up being the storm before the calm.

I like you r30!

Let's start of movement to migrate to Sarah's Alaska. C'mon, it'll be fun!

"Welcome to the world of SARAH PALIN'S ALASKA. Get an inside look at the famous Alaskan native and watch as Sarah goes salmon fishing with her new neighbors, hunt for gold with the homeless . . . "

We're not waiting expectantly for your arrival. Stay home.

Move to Mexico or Africa girls

I was thinking maybe some place quaint - like Luxembourg

don't go now. The new election cycle will start in about six months. Just think of all the beautiful outfits Kamala will be wearing.

If you gays didn't spend all your money on meth and AIDS medication, you would have traveled and realized the US is by far the best country, and the only threat to our superior civilization is unchecked 3rd World infiltration.

You don't want to be the entertainment at a Muslim roof party, or get stabbed with a machete by some Dominican or Mexican street gang because you're gay.

Your points of disagreement with your fellow whites are utterly trivial once you get out of your marxist bubble.

Last time American's wanted to move, Canada very politely said, No!

Justice Kennedy is a conservative. The game does not change at all. The House will turn blue in a few months. Mueller will turn over his report then.

R67–I live in Michigan: Trump country, Muslim country, and black country (and don’t forget Arab Catholics)—it is no picnic for gays. I need to escape now or else I’ll get tossed off a roof or run over.

Middle East. They are into kaftans and pottery anyway.

Please, you bitches aren't moving to shit. Just like all those fuckin' idiot celebrities like Lena Dunham who promised to move to Canada once Trump was elected you're just talking out your ass. We all know that despite all your Utopian fantasies by and large we have it best in the good 'ol U S fucking of A---even WITH Trump. We have the most freedom, the most opportunity, the most recourse and a superior quality of life. There's a reason that bitches be clawing their way in and not the other way around. Get some fuckin' GLOBAL perspective.

When you leave the US the quality of life in many countries is actually better than in the USA. Free higher education, socialized medicine, paid maternity leave, strong environmental regulations. I just came back from Croatia and Slovenia and didn't see anyone who seemed as poverty stricken as some I see everyday in NYC. Not to mention the many homeless sleeping in the streets.

Not every country is a shithole with people dying to come here.

American wetbacks taking over Mexico.

r73 just got back from two of the whitest countries in Europe, but is too politically correct to connect the dots and correct his radical open borders ideology.

r74 equates polite, civilized, law abiding US senior citizens in Mexico with MS-13 and cartel types that terrorize the US and breed like rabbits.

R58 That will change if Roe v. Wade is reversed.

I am not letting them bully me out of the country I was born and raised in. My whole life is here and I will not be bullied out by a bunch of thugs and tyrants, such as the likes of Trump and his ilk.

FWIW, those seriously thinking of leaving the US; 1- unless you move to an English speaking country you'll have to learn the language, 2- it's not that easy to get citizenship, and 3- there's also the possibility that if you do get citizenship your partner may not. So there's that to consider as well.

Who cares R77. I’m leaving. At what point do you not care? Who cares. It’s over.

ANOTHER American RAPIST in Asia. Time to build a beautiful wall

I lived in SE Asia for many years and returned to the USA after the DOMA went down. I brought my partner with me here. I am actually considering going back now. I can always vote from abroad but frankly I am very worried about what is going to happen here.

r78 Is cultivating a beautiful victim-complex. Now people are bullying him into leaving the US, lol.

What a hateful little drama queen you are, r78. Losing an election feels like a Holocaust, lol.

Take your meds, or get diagnosed at long last.

I spent the first 19 years of my life in America. That was more than enough for me and I left, haven't lived in the US in 46 years. DL provides an on-going reminder as to why.

[quote]I’d love to move to the Netherlands. But, don’t speak the language

Stick to randstad and it’s hardly necessary, bough you won’t be as liked.

R72 is face-down in nationalism-flavored koolaid.

As opposed to the hyperbole-flavoured kind R85.

I've been talking about moving to Ayers Rock for years. Now might be the time to do it.

Daneland.

I'm leaving.

I'm not going to keep working in the US knowing that my taxes are going to pay for Trump's agenda, which include taking away my rights.

If I can't leave or find a way to live abroad, I'm going to kill myself. I'm not waiting around for the gay concentration camps.

It would be nice if people were to go north and colonize Canada.

Oh Mary! R89 lmfao!!!

Stay in the U.S.. Retreat into a hermit like existence on Wikupedia.

I'll add that I was of voting age when George W. Bush was "elected" and celebrities were considered to be throwing tantrums by saying they would move elsewhere.

And then we looked back and said how foolish and bratty they were.

And now we look back and say, "Well, considering what they had to look forward to (and what America was all the while)..."

Most of these places have a skills or net worth requirement - they're not going to be letting in the elderly poor.

I'm doubling down and fighting like an elephant in heat. In the words of Abe Lincoln: fuck these retards.

Oh R3, the situation is way beyond our ability to fight back. The courts, the police, every government office, Congress, corporations, regulatory agencies, the media- all packed with Fascists now. And our electoral system is utterly hackable so voting them out is a pipe dream. We're powerless now. Because too many were too stupid to see the obvious warning signs. This democracy is as good as dead.

R67 sounds like Milo Muleface.

This might be handy to know for some of you...

"The European Union's top court has ruled in favour of a Romanian gay man's right to have his US husband live with him in Romania. The country, which does not recognise same-sex marriage, had argued that the American was not entitled to the EU residency rights awarded to spouses. But the European Court of Justice said the term "spouse" was gender neutral..."

Florida. From a blue state. I'm going to start looking. I work from home so I'm up for it.

To those of you thinking of fleeing to Canada don't bother, the "Trump effect" is happening here too. Ontario just voted in a populist conservative Doug Ford (the brother of Toronto's late crack smoking mayor Rob Ford). Trudeau's liberals are tanking in the polls and the Conservatives are employing divisive Trump tactics to try and win power in next year's election.

For the love of God, won't someone please shoot me in the mouth?!?

The way Trump lies seems to bother me more than his many crimes.

I would forget any “white” country as they’re starting to go crazy because their time is short. What I find funny is they’re all freaked about brown people when Asians have far, far out bred all races combined.

R100- Except the federal Conservative party will never try to roll back gay rights or ban abortion. Canadian conservatives are more like slightly right-of-center Democrats.

my friends have moved to mexico city and love it, very cheap and good food, hot boys, week enders to Puerto Vallarta and acapulco

Is there a hispanic equivalent of Datalounge, R105?

there damn well better be.

Welcome to Barra de Cóctel de Datos!

Name one majority nonwhite country, r47, that you'd like to live in, and tell us why.

We'll wait.

r26, if you're looking for the country with the lowest level of religiosity in the world, Estonia is it (no kidding, that's been surveyed). Your chances of being admitted there are much higher if you're not Russian, btw.

[quote]It would be nice if people were to go north and colonize Canada.

With an attitude like that I think you're well suited to staying in present day America.

[quote]I was thinking maybe some place quaint - like Luxembourg

and what the fuck will you do when you get there?

mope about?

r21 "Neo-Fascist takeover coming soon" "economy in chaos" sounds like america to me.

Also looks like a lot of you never left your (red) little state if you think the US is the best country in the world , maybe it was once but definitely it isn't now.

[quote]maybe it was once but definitely it isn't now.

Millions of invaders of America think R112 is completely WRONG.

Let them come to the US. If Calexit happens than they need to take a China-approach. No Islam, hopefully no religion, or very little, no crazy people coming in-California will have technology, agriculture, entertainment, art, fashion, etc. California will need to protect its culture or if they let all of these people in because PC Nazis, then California will fail. It will collapse.

Japan or South Korea

[quote]It will collapse.

Proving Trump right. Don’t prove Trump right. My fear is Calexit will let all these people in. And, that will be terrible. California will need to protect its way of life because the people coming in want to take your way of life, especially gays and women.

[quote] Why do people assume they can just pack up and move to another country? Most countries have very strict immigration laws and THEY DON'T WANT YOU.

Bitch, you don't know my personal situation. Sit down.

He’s jealous R117.

r113 Because is definitely better that their own country, and is not like they have much choice, do you expect them to take a plane to Europe or something?

R14, you don’t need to know the language to live in the Netherlands. Well, not in cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Everyone there happily speaks English. It’s very much a bilingual country. Maybe not so much in the rural area/small villages.

If Hillary is your girl, then you are too right-wing for the rest of the world.

R120, no, it’s not. But indeed in the big cities even ditch diggers speak English passably.

I really hope the posters wanting to run away never use the word balls to describe strength or pussy to convey weakness. I am a woman and am willing to fight these bastards.

Huh?

Have fun R123!

SC vote can’t be blocked R27. It’s happening. Democrats DO NOT CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT. Republicans control EVERYTHING. Why are people not understanding this?

Portugal is a DUMP R39. All of its citizens move here because there is no work.

I’m with you R57. I’m fucking tired of all of it. Of having put up with this shit and hatred from a majority of the population around the world for nearly five decades. And if you people don’t like that, too fucking bad. Human nature is not changing. We are going to repeat what happened not even 75 years ago, and I’m not going to be around to watch.

You’re a fool if you think Mueller, a dyed in the wool REPUBLICAN, is going to do anything to save this country R69.

I hate this country, but it's fun watching it fall- like watching the WTC crumble in slo-mo.

Greed, homophobia, hate, bigotry, racism, selfishness... all reasons it failed. Oh, and the dark cloud of the annihilation of the Native Americans, who had their land stolen over and over.

Buh-bye!

I 100% agree with you R96. I keep hearing “vote vote.” Fuck voting. I’ve seen two Presidential elections stolen in my lifetime. Why bother. Elections are rigged in this country. Democracy is over here. The willfully blind will be the first down.

I agree with R131.

R100, the Conservatives are practically invisible. Plus, they have a lot of “ethnic” voters, so they aren’t advancing divisive racist policies.

Nearly even country is a mess right now. When it comes to Canada, Trudeau is on his way out. Canada is swinging more and more to the Right, and quite honestly, Canada is fucking boring as hell. Australia could be nice.

[quote]I hate this country, but it's fun watching it fall- like watching the WTC crumble in slo-mo.

you're a turd

[quote]Why bother. Elections are rigged in this country. Democracy is over here.

think global, act locally. MOST voters like you are terribly lazy and ignore all local elections. your local reps are what really matter.

If Calexit happens than they need to take a China-approach. No Islam, hopefully no religion, or very little, no crazy people coming in-California will have technology, agriculture, entertainment, art, fashion, etc. California will need to protect its culture or if they let all of these people in because PC Nazis, then California will fail. It will collapse.

Hahaha hypocritical cunts. Your heads explode when you hear the Right's version:

If United States happens than (sic) they need to take a China-approach. No Islam, hopefully no illegal latinos, or very little, no crazy people coming in - the USA will have technology, agriculture, entertainment, art, fashion, etc. USA will need to protect its culture or if they let all of these people in because PC far left liberals, then the USA will fail. It will collapse.

Interesting that if Calexit happens, you would want to secure its borders, dictate what religious affiliations are or are not welcome, PROTECT ITS CULTURE, but you are aghast that the Right wants to do their version of the same here in the United States.

Sorry, this should have been in quotes from R114:

"Let them come to the US. If Calexit happens than they need to take a China-approach. No Islam, hopefully no religion, or very little, no crazy people coming in-California will have technology, agriculture, entertainment, art, fashion, etc. California will need to protect its culture or if they let all of these people in because PC Nazis, then California will fail. It will collapse."

Pet Shop Boys were thinking about this topic years ago.

I fantasize about leaving but in reality I can't and won't. I don't want to be that far from family and have elderly relatives who need help. I feel fortunate to live in a very blue county in a blue state. The news really gets me down, I simply hate that cruel, lying, cheating incompetents are currently running the government, but I maintain hope that this is temporary. The damage they are doing is massive but it can be turned around when saner, more compassionate heads prevail. It will take time but the November elections are coming. The Mueller investigation is keeping very quiet but I am hoping soon there will be reports that will bring an end to the corrupt trump administration. I know that there are fine, progressive minds across the nation doing what they can to right these wrongs.

I feel the way I did when I had a great job and a terrible, right wing boss who actually listened to Rush Limbaugh in his office every day. Every morning I woke up feeling depressed but spent a few minutes reciting positive thoughts, "stay strong, continue to focus on doing an excellent job for the worthy people who need me, look for the good in people and things, and don't let the scum bring me down." It gets really hard these days but if I focus on the positive it helps me cope with the negative. There will always be negative, we have to fight to overcome it.

It's important we stay informed, active, and that we VOTE.

You’re delusional R136 and part of the problem.

[quote]I fantasize about leaving but in reality I can't and won't.

Like most of these people who can't even find anywhere to go and what the fuck they intend to do if and when they get there.

If you are over 50 Thailand offers a retirement visa for those who have an income of about 1500 USD a month.

Stay in the US and vote for heaven's sake: vote. You guys do not vote. 36% of eligible voters voted in the last midterm election, about 20% those under 35. The GOP loves it. So vote- and do it every time. And our nation will change.

With the new supreme court I suspect the only way the nation will change will be to go back to 1950 America. I can vote as often as I like but with these folks in charge of my destiny I only see dark times ahead. I have a good friend who has continued to say there is no difference between Hillary and Trump. I suspect he will see the difference soon in the way the court hands down decisions. Trump will have influence on this country for the next 30 years.

Malaysia also offers a retirement visa. The conditions are reasonable and, unlike in Thailand, you can buy land (not just that condo in Bangkok or Phuket).

we are looking at Panama. We are both from military families, and apparently, a lot of them retire there. It's a low cost of living, the weather is perfect all year round, people are pretty liberal and open-minded.

I'm imagining if military families are retiring there (Panama) then it must be reasonably safe?

Why is every country that has retirement visas a tropical hell hole?

[quote]If Calexit happens than they need to take a China-approach.

So you want to turn California Communist and send people to camps who are free thinkers, that turned out so well for the Soviets.

Go to Mexico and build that wall.

OP Please move to Syria

R152, and what are YOu doing to make America a better place for all citizens?

I just renewed my passport for this exact purpose: to leave the country. I'm thinking of Uruguay or Ecuador. I speak a bit of Spanish and I always wanted to be truly fluent, so this would be my big chance. I have a very small $800/month pension, and in 27 months (assuming it still exists), I can collect Social Security. I should be OK.

Anyone have any other suggestions? I only have 10K saved and I don't really want to sell my property here. And I don't have much in the way of transferable work skills. I could maybe take a TEFL-type course before I go. BTW, I'm almost 60.

I'd move to Ireland - next to Enya.

Why does everyone keep suggesting Ireland? I thought it was supposed to be very expensive there.

[quote]OP Please move to Syria

I spent my childhood in places like Damascus - a beautiful city. Perhaps if dirtbag, neocon savages who've controlled American foreign policy for decades didn't insist on destroying every country over there, it wouldn't be used as a source of ridicule by people like you who ignore the propping up of fanatics by those here with an agenda.

[quote]Why does everyone keep suggesting Ireland? I thought it was supposed to be very expensive there.

I'm half Irish and I have some family there. Paying more for peace of mind is worth it.

Dublin's real estate is expensive, but other cities are more affordable. And rural Ireland is dirt cheap.

R154 should seriously consider what will happen when an American expat's health starts to fail abroad. Medicare will not pay.

R154, Uruguay is a very popular destination among ex-pats; it is said to be easy to legally reside there, and Montevideo is a beautiful and underrated city. Taking an inexpensive TEFL-type course before you go is a smart idea, and learning Spanish would be a great adventure.

I second R158's question, though: What is everyone's plan for elder-care and end-of-life care if they're living abroad?

R143. I have a friend who lived in Thailand for 8 years while her father was teaching in a university. She absolutely loved living there.

Another friend visits Thailand every year for about 6 weeks. She also deeply loves that country. Says it's really cheap to travel there and the food and the people are wonderful.

I haven't been there but I follow the doings of the Elephant Nature Park and would love to volunteer there some day. It' near Chaing Mai, a town my friend really enjoys.

The retirement visa sounds very tempting.

You think Thailand and Malaysia are "tropical hellholes", r149? So what do you think of Florida? Or Utah and New Mexico? Arid hellholes?

You need to finally get a passport and see someplace outside the US.

Fascism has come to the USA, and it will only get worse. Trump is really testing the waters and the GOP is totally cool with it. But better to stay and fight unless you have some sort of special skill, the doors aren't going to open for you, just because you're American.

R154, a friend just got married and retired to puerto Vallarta, he’s been there now a year, seems super happy

Maybe Ireland. My mother was born there, so I do have right of return.

I moved to Italy years ago and am still in love with it. I would not move back to the US. No way.

R154, Your financial situation is pretty similar to mine as well as your age. USD 800 is doable in the part of the world you are heading to if you plan to live more like a native. When you tack on your social security you will be doing well. maybe even be considered rich by local standards. At your age English teaching may be a little difficult but not impossible. Most schools want a younger teacher. Last one there is a rotten egg.

Canada is next door and is relatively similar, but it's cold.

[quote] You need to finally get a passport and see someplace outside the US.

I have. I loved Scotland, Ireland, British Columbia, Norway, and northern England. Not everyone likes hot weather, cunt.

And as a matter of fact, Florida IS a tropical hellhole

I carry a Canadian passport, and I am a legal resident of Costa Rica. Jealous, bitches?

Seriously though -I'm quite comfortable and adapted to my adopted homeland, but statistically, 60 to 70% of the gringos that move here, leave within the first two years. You cannot have it like 'back home' ever again, and better be able to adapt. Patience is your best friend, and Type A's don't do well here.

And yes, there is a pensionado immigration method, but obtaining residency is not easy. A simple online search will give you this information. I would advice against attempting to be a perpetual tourist. Americans, like in the rest of the world, are not well liked (this surprises you?), and are mostly treated with respectful indifference. They are assumed to be wealthy, and in many cases, that is true. You want to remain low key, and never display wealth. And, I really don't think many of you are being hyperbolic in your pessimistic assessment of where your country is headed. I'd get out also.

I work remotely and plan to move to Spain - either Sevilla or a town along the Andalucian coast. I hope to get by on $2000-3000/month. And yes, I speak some Spanish already. I need access to European culture and arts, so I prefer Spain to Mexico/Costa Rico, etc. You can get a non lucrative resident visa for Spain if you make enough from non-Spain based work. There is no way for Americans to get legit jobs in Spain at the moment.

Cartagena Colombia is my back up.

R170 here

I am budgeting 200 Euros for health insurance/month.

My mom was born in Romania and lived there until she was 8. She may be able to get the entire family Romanian citizenship. That would give us a right to live anywhere in the EU.

My mother just bought an apartment in Southern Spain.

2 bed, very nice modern building. Gardens. Pool. Parking. Walk to the beach. About $400,000, I think.

But not in one of the fancy towns like Marbella.

Glinda says.......

R12 Snowden is there and living well apparently

Canada is ONLY cold for 8 months of the year!

[quote]I need access to European culture and arts, so I prefer Spain

You prefer "Euro" art and choose the country where much of their art/architecture was created by Moors?

R35 Ireland? Never!

Oh, come off it, R177. Although Jews, Christians, and Muslims commingled in the Middle Ages, and each group made beautiful contributions to Spanish art, architecture, literature, and scholarship, of course Spain is European.

R177 Persnickety aren't you

Gaudi , Miro, Picasso , Gris, Serrano, Otieza, Dali, Gonzalez....geez a lot of dat art in Spain has been made more recently than the Moors, who never painted people because their religion doesn't allow it...

So in other words, you'd like to just pretend the influences of the east aren't seen in Spain to this day. In the architecture. Got it. Anything to dismiss and maintain the belief that only "Europe" is known for art.

Please re-read my comment, R181:

[quote] Jews, Christians, and Muslims commingled in the Middle Ages, and each group made beautiful contributions to Spanish art, architecture, literature, and scholarship

And enjoy the below photo of the Mezquita.

Nevertheless, Spain is a European country, and Spanish culture is European culture.

R181 where are you moving too? A more Moorish-centric country?

some temperatures for Canada... It's a lot like Chicago. To hear you people talk it's the Arctic.

Chicago

I've lived in Montreal, R184, and I think it's actually pretty bad!

I'm in Toronto but Montreal is way the fuck north and yeah, it's cold.

Vancouver and Victoria don’t get too cold. But it rains a lot.

R81 is a rice queen who married a gigolo from the slums

I grew up in Cambridge about an hour west of Toronto and don't recall it being that cold. It was just dull.

Jeez no country in the west is waiting with bated breath to admit Americans. Stay home cunts.

R190. I grew up just south... near Brantford.

I could do Ireland legally. But honestly, every time I spend a chunk of time in another country, I miss the US. As screwed up as it is, it has some amazing places - NY, CA, the West in general, multiple good cities, excellent quality health care that is easily accessible (if expensive). I hate everything about what is going on - and will damn sure vote - but know that I can’t move. Having lived through the intense homophobia and death of the AIDS-era, I’m not sure it will get worse than that. Even if gay marriage is eliminated, the change in the majority opinion about homosexuality is entrenched. I also see hardcore religionism fading - and unlikely to come back. The biggest issue is poverty and inequality - but I’m not escaping that overseas as a non-citizen with minimally transferable job skills.

[quote]I also see hardcore religionism fading - and unlikely to come back

Wait...where do you live? The US?

Yes, that was in 2005

R167, colder but just, Chicago is similar

The west coast isn’t cold

My sister and several relatives moved from Cambridge to Brantford about 15 years ago, R192. I still have a few relatives there but when I go back "home" to visit it's now Brantford. I'm not sure he's still around but my sister knew Wayne Gretzky's dad. Parents were originally from Newfoundland.

We were near St. George. The Galt part of Cambridge had some nice parts in particular.

R193, thank you for commenting -- you raise several excellent points.

I feel the same way. Despite my years abroad in places that I've loved, the U.S. is my home. And it's difficult to have conversations about the dangers of living in America right now without getting very specific about place: Are we talking about El Paso? About Portland, ME? About Chicago? About Fresno? We're like many countries all pushed together, each with a distinct culture, offerings, and quality of life.

If I were to move abroad with a partner, I could see myself being very happy. But I'm currently single and still hoping to find someone, and I believe that my chances of starting a lasting relationship are much greater here at home than in a foreign country. Perhaps, at some point, if it still hasn't happened, I'll set my sights on other goals, and leave. But I don't feel ready to give up on making a life here in the U.S. just yet.

You know I am watching CNN and it's just another shooting. Only five. This is the way we live now.

Not just on guns, but in all things, how does the country find decency again?

[quote] But I'm currently single and still hoping to find someone, and I believe that my chances of starting a lasting relationship are much greater here at home than in a foreign country.

I agree. Bit grim going off on your own.

[quote]We were near St. George. The Galt part of Cambridge had some nice parts in particular.

A lot of it has been built up since I moved away because of the Toyota plant. What used to be farm fields and sand dunes are now subdivisions. I usually make the St George Arms part of my trip but I haven't been back in a couple of years. It's about an 8 hour drive and I was getting tired of of the drive especially the return trip.

Maybe stop running from your problems? You realise if everyone did that the world be a complete shit hole and we'd have no rights to begin with?

Imagine if you, OP, were around when gays started to demand rights. You wouldn't have lifted a thumb to help.

[quote]Maybe stop running from your problems?

Well said. America could use you to counsel migrants trying to cross the border.

Im seeing a reverse migration in the making. Americans fleeing persecution and going to Europe. Will this be a brain gain for Europe like when talented German Jews once gave their gifts to the US? Will Latinos bring a culture of democracy back to their origin countries?

This could be interesting.

everybody heading to Europe remember you;re probably losing money right out of the gate... 1 USD is .14 cents short of a Euro.

Nobody wants hate filled US liberals. The whole world supports strong borders and family values.

Americans, and I ask this sincerely, but do you really think you could find the humility to live permanently in another country? Because, truth be told, a lot of you don't really travel that well. Like, if you can't get your Tide or your Pringles or your March Madness, we don t really want to hear about it.

Likewise for the Brits, R208 - with their drunken brawling where ever they go.

And the Germans and their god-damned towel game that they play by the pool, to get the best recliners.

Ad nauseum....

[quote]Americans, like in the rest of the world, are not well liked (this surprises you?), and are mostly treated with respectful indifference.

Isn't that part of the attraction with Spain? You would be surrounded by Brits behaving badly, so being an American would be a plus, right?

I'm thinking of teaching English in Korea. Pays well, people are nice. My friend did it and ended up staying there.

" like when talented German Jews once gave their gifts to the US?"

Jews don't give. They use their talents to take, period. It's in all their holy books. Take take take, rape kill control. Just like MS-13.

R211. Abortion is illegal in South Korea, so is gay marriage, and they have a wall. American liberals truly are dense.

R104 The leader of the Conservative party is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage. They are not openly advocating changing these things but Canada is shifting back to the right perhaps not the same extent as America but it's still worrying. Doug Ford is already getting ready to overturn Ontario's pro-LGBT sex education curriculum and getting rid of protections for medical clinics that perform abortions.

Best places in Latin America to move to: Panama, Costa Rica, Uruguay

Argentina is good. That's where all the defeated Nazi went, right? They must know something.

Do the twinks there look like him?

R213, things are moving forward there. They're going to go very much backwards here. It's safe and clean, the people are kind, and the tech is amazing. It'll be nice for a few years, and then on to who knows.

[Quote] [R211]. Abortion is illegal in South Korea, so is gay marriage, and they have a wall. American liberals truly are dense.

That's where we are headed r213

Whatever. They have bullet trains and Starbucks in South Korea. I want to be part of a not totally conservative society that's growing more liberal by the year. Not one going backwards. It's too scary here.

And in South Korea you can use your smartphone as a ticket to go into the subway. Now THAT’S progress.

If you have enough money, Croatia might be nice. It's part of the EU now, and it's very beautiful. They have Uber boats there.

Househunting in Croatia - Love this regular NYT feature.

R199, oh, MARY

FYI you just can't move to other countries. You'll need work visas and all sorts of other stuff.

Democracy is dying everywhere in the western world.

Maybe democracy is no longer the best system.

Why?

R225, we are aware of that. There's been much discussion upthread about different legal options.

[quote] Democracy is dying everywhere in the western world.

R226, that's an intriguing statement. I've seen it echoed elsewhere on DL, albeit in a less dramatic form: People say that we can't outrun what Trump represents; that the rise of nationalist right-wing parties is a global trend. It's one of the best arguments for staying put in the U.S., in my opinion.

R226 I wouldn't go as far as saying democracy is dying everywhere BUT were a seeing a couple things: 1) a backlash against globalism & 2) the 1% versus the 99%. The 1% has managed to cease the right and to deliberately misdirect [white] people's anger at "the other." Your wages a suppressed because of immigrants not because of corporate greed. There are no jobs because immigrants are taking them not because corporations are cutting jobs to increase profits. Immigrants are milking the system. Things were better in the past etc. etc.

There is going to be a world wide economic breakdown very soon. The system cannot sustain itself. A strong economy is dependent on people having a disposable income. The reality is a majority of people have little or no disposable income so they switch to credit . The whole economy is being held up by credit and that will burst I'm guessing within 2 years or so.

[quote]I wouldn't go as far as saying democracy is dying everywhere BUT were a seeing a couple things: 1) a backlash against globalism & 2) the 1% versus the 99%. The 1% has managed to cease the right and to deliberately misdirect [white] people's anger at "the other." Your wages a suppressed because of immigrants not because of corporate greed. There are no jobs because immigrants are taking them not because corporations are cutting jobs to increase profits. Immigrants are milking the system. Things were better in the past etc. etc.

R230 It's both. Wages are suppressed because of corporate greed... and mass immigration is one of the means to that goal.

And yes... for large swaths of the population, things were better in the past...especially economically.

People aren't as stupid as you think they are.

R227 Might have a point. I don't know if there is a "best system," really, but when I try to take the long, historical view, I wonder whether democracy is not inherently against basic, animal-level human nature and therefore doomed to fail given enough time. We've been warring tribes of hominids for far longer than we've been followers of Enlightenment thought.

Democracy fails when the electorate is ill-informed

R233 Perhaps what you mean to say is that democracy fails when your side does not win the election.

Why are multimillionaire eldergays so offended by Trump? His policies work in their interests.

Does Toronto have a Wrigleyville Cumdump?

R233 Democracy depends also on the quality of the people who enters politics. Garbage in garbage out. When a political party doesn't even bother to weed out the corrupt and stupid ones, they end up in Congress and the WH.

[quote] We've been warring tribes of hominids for far longer than we've been followers of Enlightenment thought.

R232 Then governance would be better as local and tribal. Worth considering.

R234, no-not what I said, you traitor, fuck off and die.

R235, probabaly because he’s morally reprehensible, you troll.

[quote]Why are multimillionaire eldergays so offended by Trump? His policies work in their interests.

Anyone with a modicum of taste, brains, morals, and a conscience is offended by Trump.

R237, but if the electorate is lied to about everything, and they are ill-educated enough, then a sow’s Ear becomes a silk purse to them, thus deplorable vote for republicans

R238, nope, wrong again

is mexico city as groovy as they say? I like that the $ goes twice as far and then some...im told pollution is way better, less crime in nice parts, cheap whores, mild weather

R235 There are no multimillionaires posting in this thread.

and how is the medical care in mex city? im told very good. are there as many expats from usa there as they say? I don't speak spanish

Geez, grow a pair. I'm from a shithole country. Evil can be overthrown. I've seen it happen.

[quote]is mexico city as groovy as they say? I like that the $ goes twice as far and then some...im told pollution is way better, less crime in nice parts, cheap whores, mild weather

It's at a very high altitude. I felt most odd when I was there.

[R127] I go there every summer and love it. Have family in Terceira and Aveiro. Work is hard to come by but I could work remotely. Main reason I choose it is because I am fluent and have family there.

Is the Mexico City troll posting again? Dear, take my advice! Get on the bus and head down and see what you think. Stop procrastinating. I never lived there but did live in Guadalajara for many years. Mexico City is very, very fun. One of the gayest places on the planet. If I were you i would start my Spanish classes yesterday. Regardless of what you said I didn't find a lot of English spoken when i was there. And the ones who did speak it will expect you to try at it. What is your budget?

[quote]There are no multimillionaires posting in this thread.

My net worth is $2 million. Does that qualify?

Not interested.

R243 Well well. Alrighty then!

R251, I can take you to paradise on your private plane. You can find me at Panda Express in Hell’s Kitchen most lunchtimes.

I’m seriously looking into buying a place in Puerto Vallarta to have as an escape

Whether you're a puritan of old, a Syrian refugee or an American decamping for Costa Rica in the Trump era, it's all the same. Fleeing to escape persecution.

Only diff is the American does not go to seek economic opportunity. More often than in other migrations, theycare ijser, some retirement age.

Though economic opportunity is changing even as we speak. Partly push because ops are drying up for many middle class in the US. Partly pull because of policy like ancestral dual citizenship of the EU.

[quote]Fleeing to escape persecution.

R256 really needs to look up what persecution means.

R222 That's a photo of Cannes, not Croatia.

Oops r257. I am getting a little ahead of myself. It's just beginning.... cakes, kids, human rights council, unions... hmm let's ask the SC what's next. Oh wait.

Lots of hyperbole R259. Little reality.

What's your reality r260?

fuk u cunt, Im only on social sec and im seriously curious bout mex city.

I got so many collectibles and antiques it will be a huge movie. I need to know!!!

bully !

Panama is a beautiful country. Panama City is like Miami, only affordable. English is spoken everywhere and there is a big expats community. You can visit, open a bank account, and that alone is enough to get a permanent residence visa. You only have to return every 2 years to renew, you don't have to live there. And after living for 5 years, you can get citizenship. It's a great escape hatch. They also have full protection for gay marriage and trans rights. Like I said, lots of military families retire there. The cost of living is much lower too.

Join me in my escape to Spain, which was voted the most gay-friendly country by a Gallup poll.

....

I am an American living in the UK with my British partner. We have been here for 5 years and have no plans to go back to the US until retirement (about 15 years from now).

My own personal experience is that you can't ever really get away from the US. I love living in the UK and having access to Europe, Africa, etc all at my doorstep. Culturally I like living outside the US too. (Yeah, yeah, I know the UK has plenty of culture problems, but that's not really part of my day-to-day).

But I am an American. I lived in America until I was 43 years old. I will never be a Brit, or any other nationality no matter where I may live. American friends say to me all the time , "You're so lucky you don't live here anymore". Yes, but my family and friends do, my cultural history is very attached there, I still have to file a US tax return every year. I am a business owner in the UK and my limited company is being whacked by a massive US tax penalty this year because it's a foreign corporation owned by an American (thanks Trump, you POS).

And by the way, you can't just give up your US citizenship without major financial ramifications. Believe me, I've spend many hours looking into it. You may get hit with expatriation fees which could claim a huge percentage of your assets. This almost happened to us when my partner gave up his US Green Card (which he had to do). Being an American citizen is a little like the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

I am just as furious and horrified about the current political and racial situation in the US as many of you are. It doesn't all just go away if you leave. My elderly parents will be impacted by whatever the waste of oxygen in the White House (and the disgusting Congress) decides to do. They live in fear every day that their Medicare will be taken away from them.

You can't really "get away" from the US by moving abroad. By all means, move abroad if you want to expand your cultural horizons, experience life outside the US, get to know people who view life with a completely different perspective than you do, push yourself outside of your comfort zone, etc etc. But don't think that moving away will suddenly make all your American problems disappear. It won't.

The ten years i spent living abroad in SE Asia went without me thinking about America for the most part. The only time I was reminded was when a local asked me where I was from. You can leave and not look back as many of my friends did.

Thanks for your post, R266.

[quote] This almost happened to us when my partner gave up his US Green Card (which he had to do).

Why did he have to do?

Long, long term expat here, lived in much of Europe, Asia and Aus/NZ. Right now, am in Portugal, and it has a lot going for it. Little crime, lovely people, no migrants, no terrorism, beautiful coastline, relatively low cost of living, and massive tax breaks for new residents. Pretty much everyone speaks English, the medical system is pretty good apparently, centuries of European culture, which is important to me. Having said that, the salaries here are laughably low so you must be able to work remotely or have income from abroad. But being an expat is not like a long vacation neither is it like living at home with different scenery. You really do need to adapt and accept and force yourself to learn new skills to thrive. At least now there are vibrant expat communities connected online to help newcomers. There was none of that when I started, and oh boy, was it hard.

R269, because he was no longer a US resident, having moved back to the UK (he's a British citizen). After a certain amount of time if you don't spend X amount of days in the US, you cannot keep a green card.

Lived in the Netherlands for ten years in the nineties, it’s very different there now, but I’d consider moving back

The more you know. . .

Vancouver looks beautiful, but ridiculously expensive

[quote][R269], because he was no longer a US resident, having moved back to the UK (he's a British citizen). After a certain amount of time if you don't spend X amount of days in the US, you cannot keep a green card.

I thought you just have to enter the USA once a year and get your passport stamped.

You can do that at the embassy

R270, aren’t YOU a migrant?

R140. I love your comment, and need to have your outlook. Thank you.

Canada isn't the answer. I'm sure Trump has plans to make it our 51st State before he's done.

Green card holders must spend 6 months a year in the USA or they will lose their green card.

I'm not sure, but if you're an expat, you still have to pay US taxes, on top of the taxes of your adopted country? If so, you need a lot of money to make that move. It's not easy.

Yup. You do

Remember people: this is the same country that, not long ago, elected a cool, smart, black guy as president TWICE.

Hang on.

I'm staying just to enjoy Kamala's spiky heels.

R282 But the tax is at lesser rate, no? In order to completely non-liable for US taxes on top foreign earnings you would have to completely surrender your US citizenship? Is that even possible or just very complicated to do? Aussie here and I've spoken to several Americans who have moved here in the past two years who seem to be settling in very well. Another US girl I met married an Australian fellow and now lives over here with full rights, and I guess she gave up her US passport as she now travels home for 90 day stays on a tourist visa.

R281, yes you do. The US has a tax treaty with the UK, so in my case I do not pay double tax as an individual because I make sure to stay under the personal tax income allowance designated by the treaty. However, I still have to file a US tax return each year in addition to my UK tax return (personal assessment is what the UK calls it). My company, on the other hand gets penalized badly now under the new Trump Tax for being a corporation registered to a foreign country (UK) but owned by an American.

If I became an employee of a different company and shut down my company, I wouldn't have the added complication of being a foreign business owner. The freedom of being my own boss is worth the massive headache in my case anyway, so for now I'll carry on until I see how things pan out in the next year or two with both the US tax scam and Brexit (which is causing me other headaches not relevant to this conversation).

And R280 is correct re: green card. My partner was getting grief by Border Control when he was trying to still go in and out of the US using his green card. They detained him at one point, and honestly it's not worth the grief. In a way that detainment saved us because he gave up his card shortly thereafter and we avoided expatriation by the skin of our teeth (it's based on income, assets, and length of time you were a US resident).

How hard is it to move to Finland, the happiest country in the world per surveys?

I want to marry Ari-Pekka Liukkonen.

"Where the hell should we go, DL?"

Yes, indeed. Where in the world can you go to avoid what's taking place in the world?

No one is moving to Africa? Racists!

For me, it's hunker down and stay put. I couldn't afford to move to another country, anyway. Just brace myself.. in for a bumpy ride.

I second what r266/286 said. I too am a long-term expat American married to an EU citizen.

The tax situation becomes unbelievably annoying once you leave the US. As a US citizen, you have to file a tax return every year. The problem is that there is not a single IRS-certified tax preparer in the country where I live, so I'm on my own. And once you pass that threshold that r266 talks about (it's about $100,000 gross income), you start having to file some extremely complex forms to get credit for the (very high) foreign taxes you've already paid on your income.

They've made it increasingly difficult in the pas 15 years to render your US citizenship to avoid these hassles, and exit taxes can be very steep.

So -- apart from the fact that as I pointed out in my first post, due to the overwhelming US military, economic and political influence all over the world, it's practically impossible to escape the effects of US politics entirely -- if you're a citizen, you're also stuck with a lot of issues that can cause headaches of their own.

If you never plan to go back to the States, or if you're sure you can keep any income you have off-record (say, by claiming you've become a stay-at-home spouse and don't work any more), then you can probably escape the tax hassles. Otherwise, good luck cutting the cord.

You drama queens should start an agricultural project in Guyana. I'll send the kool aid.

R266’s post is depressing.

It’s true though, having lived abroad during the bush ascendancy, since he stole the election, it was all the news, all the time

Interesting article that was posted during his campaigning but the information still applies.

Thanks, r295, this is a great quote:

[quote]Mexico is generally safe for American expats, with some areas much safer per capita than in the U.S. For example, the homicide rate in the state of Yucatan, which contains the colonial city of Merida, with over a million inhabitants, is about the same as Maine, half that of West Virginia, and only a quarter that of Washington, D.C. So, if Washington D.C. is driving you out of the U.S., you can live in Merida at a price that is substantially less.

OP - buy a vineyard in Lavaux over Lac Leman, Switzerland.

Who knows when some new cartel will rise up and throw the state of Yucatan into upheaval with mass murders, kidnappings and rapes. Mexico is a no for me.

I've been thinking about this since 2016 and am seriously considering Panama. I know many people here want to stay and hunker down, but being Latino especially I just don't feel safe.

10-15 years ago I would have considered Turkey. Not really a viable option in 2018.

There's some kind of US-Dutch friendship treaty from after WWII that permits Americans under the age of 30 (?) to move to Holland and live and work there quite easily.

Other European countries have visas that allow you to live there, not work, if you can prove you have a certain yearly income from savings/pension/digital nomad type work. Same as if you have like a million dollars to invest in a business, you can get a US visa. Except these countries--Portugal was one--you only needed to show that you had $15K annual income or something comparatively reasonable.

By "visa" I mean the type of permit that allows you to live legally, with an annual renewal. Like in Thailand, you have to do an annual renewal of your retirement visa and pay a fee and do a bunch of paperwork.

I've heard Antarctica has some cool stuff.

I haven’t

Penguins are very cool.

No R298, Mexico has protected large parts of the country from drug cartels. It’s a big country and tourism on the coast too valuable.

Yucatán could have rebels, like before, but it also has tourism

What about Malta? Or "Little Montenegro"?

What about Tijuana? I figure that if I go there, I'll have the best of both worlds. Anyone live/d there?

Sexy ladies there

...and donkeys

[QUOTE]What about Tijuana? I figure that if I go there, I'll have the best of both worlds.

The best of what worlds?

[quote]What about Tijuana? I figure that if I go there, I'll have the best of both worlds. Anyone live/d there?

Well, yes. At least until they kidnap you and kill you.

^ Or plant drugs on you and then snitch to the police in exchange for a cash reward as your ass is thrown in jail and then the authorities proceed to extort 'get out of jail' money from your family in the U.S., even though you were innocent and didn't belong in jail in the first place. Other than that, Tijuana is okay.

Ass in jail means anal, no?

People want to live the country over how the people who are entering illegally are being treated? Odd.

^No it's because some people on the right can't compose a coherent grammatically correct thought.

Americans who live in/retired to Mexico reside in the nice, clean, safe areas which are too expensive for Mexicans who are fleeing the country to live in. The nice, safe, clean places are exactly what they can't afford. Many Americans who move to Mexico are either retired or can work anywhere as long as they have internet access. So jobs and employment opportunities are not a criteria as they are for Mexicans in Mexico.

Most Mexicans cannot afford to live in the nice, clean, safe areas where the jobs are plentiful. So they end up living in low rent areas in low cost housing where dangerous drug gangs and other thugs have taken over. As a result they end up fleeing to the US., a country governed by a president who HATES them.

Who’s a shitty jackass

If I move to one of those nice, clean, safe areas of Mexico, can I find a hot, young, poor Mexican to live with me and take care of my "needs?" That would be my way of contributing to solving the immigration problem, right?

Find it

I read an article about a couple who live on a cruise ship. They work online. Somehow it is cheaper to take cheap cruises than it is to pay rent.

All those cheerful cruise employees trying to get you to play games and stuff would get to me after a while.

There are cruise ships that travel all over the world. There's a medical staff on board--so, you pay your couple of hundred thousand for a suite and it could work out to be less than owning a home and paying health insurance, etc.

I have a friend who's the child of South Asian immigrants. He's pretty freaked out by the anti-immigrant attacks and has been looking into immigration policies. Canada won't take you past a certain age. New Zealand and Australia are possibilities, but he's worried about the anti-semitism there (Jewish spouse). He's now looking at Costa Rica as the anti-immigrant forces in Europe also worry him.

My mental escape place is New Zealand, but the poster who said you don't really escape the U.S. is right. I'm not on any of Trump's hit lists, so I figure I have to stick around and make things right.

I hear Guyana is nice. Real sense of community plus you get free punch to drink.

NZ is not the paradise everyone seems to think it is.Depending where you live in NZ, there is a fair bit of overt anti-American feeling in NZ. Children are bullied in school. NZ, because of its' geographic location and small population, is quite a backward country in many ways, as well as being colossally expensive. Housing is ugly wooden or whatever that modern stucco is called, damp, mouldy, and you pay half a million dollars for it. Petrol is probably the most expensive in the world. Flying to the west coast of the USA takes 11 hours; double that to Europe. Unless you are ultra left wing, you may not care for the politics there; pacific culture is emphasised. On the plus side, healthcare is free and of a good standard, university education is very low cost and quite good, and taxes are not all that high. GST (VAT) is 15% on everything. The beaches are marvellous

[quote]half a million dollars for it

If you're lucky. Last year we sold a two bedroom house in a shitty neighbourhood for $750 000 and that was considered cheap at the time because of the drop in the housing market.

New Zealand or Alaska (I know don’t say it) according to this.

Where was it, R325? Kingsland or similar?

R326, that is terrifying

The 1% seem to think that they know what is best for everyone, completely oblivious to the fact that there is no correlation with having acquired excessive wealth and with a knowing-ness regarding what is best for the masses. That, in itself is a real danger.

I'd be gone tomorrow if I could find a job in another country. The USA as we knew it, loved it, is gone forever. The fix is in for the next election.

Lake Lugano

To R329's point, I do a little day/swing stock trading. Despite many ups and downs the one thing that kept me optimistic is an article I read many years ago that stated there was no correlation with day trading and intelligence. Some people just get a lucky break.

Tahiti-All those beautiful Polynesian men (with a French ethnic mix) on a beautiful sunny warm island.

Watching Caribbean Life on HGTV. They're showing a gay guy buying a place in The Dominican Republic (where there are tons of available hot men if you have a little money). Seriously thinking about a trip there. The property seems pretty cheap.

It does

[Where was it, [R325]? Kingsland or similar?]

No way! It was actually shitty old OTAHUHU!!! Just a hop, skip and a jump from South Auckland. You'd be struggling to get under 2 mil in Kingsland now.

I have friends who live in a nice, clean, safe part of Mexico and they love it. There are also real Mexicans living in the area as well as a large international ex-pat community. Housing costs are low and labor is cheap. They had their villa remodeled by locals and the work they do is fantastic. They also have house cleaners and other skilled service people who are available at low cost for household maintenance and care. My friends speak Spanish having learned it after one's parents moved there first 30 years ago. The parents are now dead but they had a fabulous lifestyle, the mother with a male companion (younger Mexican dude) who looked after her well into her 90s when she passed away.

Where is the nice clean safe part of Mexico? You could be a little more specific.

Otahuhu? We lived in Devonport (Stanley Point). Left because we were bored/fed up, but will have to come back if the rest of the world goes up in flames.

Safer parts of Mexico: Lake Chapala, most of the Yucatan, San Miguel de Allende. Dangerous parts: Colima, Guerrero, Michoacán, Sinaloa, or Tamaulipas These are the states where gangs are the worst, mostly because of drug production and transportation (meth, heroin, etc). Probably not a good idea to live along any of the main north-south routes through the country that lead straight to the US.

Aim for the EU. Spend fall and winter in a city like Paris (if you can afford it), Berlin (cheap) or maybe Hamburg (perhaps my favorite city in the world for living day to day). Spend spring and summer on the Italian countryside or the French Riviera. I realize this only works if you're retired or work from home like I do. Of course this is easy for me since I'm already European and not an American citizen, but it's the set up I would aim for if I were. I also happen to be part Arab and it's not always fun to be one of the most hated minorities here right now, but I don't really know where it would be any better.

R338, puerto Vallarta

[quote] R12: How about Russia?...Oh god, no. Have you even seen Russia?

It’s a fixer-upper!

Come to Scotland! (No frau's or anyone from Portland allowed)

What about the Caribbean?

What do you do about healthcare R341? Pay as you go?

As someone who only narrowly escaped a police state that went rapidly hellwards after I left... Getting out early is better than leaving it too late. If you can get dual citizenship, get it. If you can leave the country, do it. R1 Ireland is neutral, safe and hard to get into. Get a partners visa if you can.

Oh, and if you're going to come to Scotland, make sure you're fit and hung (we like our men to be well-hung). And no bottoms - we've got a fucking nation of 'em to the south.

I live fairly close to Canada and have been researching dual citizenship (just in case things go all handsmaids tales here) and it's a lot more complicated than you think. Hopefully we get rid of Trump before we get to anarchy, but it never hurts to have a plan, just in case.

[quote]As someone who only narrowly escaped a police state that went rapidly hellwards after I left,

Was is it Venezuela, R347?

R350 Belarus

R324 Did not NZ just forbid non-citizens from buying property?

Looks like it, R352--I expect NZ has been hit by the same Chinese buying spree that places like Vancouver and California have--rich Chinese dumping their money overseas. Toss in some plutocrats buying up safe compounds for when the apocalypse hits. I'm sure it's helped push up property prices.

ETA: Seems to be the ban is on non-residents, not non-citizens. So you can buy there if you move there.

R349, pray tell, what have you found out?

NZ is noted for locking the barn door after the horse has bolted. There was a Chinese buying spree like nothing ever seen before and now the average house costs 11x the average salary. It might be more acceptable if the houses were solidly built and attractive. But they are ugly little cracker boxes. There is a website (now defunct) called Expat Exposed that discusses this.

I grew up during a time when you couldn't pay an American to leave the U.S.

R349: It is not that difficult if you have a source of income, lucrative education and experience (they have a list of what they consider beneficial to their economy) and no criminal record. Luckily, they want IT professionals and teachers. I am just waiting to see what happens between now and November....

^ No criminal background and also a clean driving record. I know of someone who met all of Canada's stringent requirements but was turned down because of one drunk driving offense on their DMV record from almost ten years earlier. He said he was told that if it was a points violation like speeding or going through a stop sign/light, etc., they would have ignored it but they will not overlook serious offenses, such as license suspension, driving on the revoke list, hit-and-run and drunk driving. This was a few years ago, so not sure if that's still the case. Maybe they've since relaxed their standards.

R358, if you don’t have a source of income. . ?

Everybody needs to go to reply to 66 and read it over and over again until it sinks in. There is very few places in the world where you can go to an escape America’s problems. The solution is to stay and fight for your country what you believe in.

R359: Good to know! I don't drive, but something for drivers to think about.

R360: They require proof of income or they will turn you down.

R347, even Ireland's neutrality is waning given the EU's increasingly aggressive foreign policy, and the US have made a point of breaching it openly in recent years (more blatantly and ignorantly under Trump, naturally). However, while I agree with R361, if you're of Irish descent (parent or grandparent) it mightn't do any harm to apply to be put on the Foreign Births register. An Irish passport is still a valuable thing to have.

I’m moving to Canada. My partner took a job in Montreal and is already there. I’m wrapping up lose ends her and joining him in two weeks. This move is going to be a trial, so we’re not selling our house or cars just yet.

I lived in Madrid for most of my twenties. I would love to return, but my partner doesn’t speak Spanish and is too involved in his career to take the time to do so.

I also lived in Russia years ago. I’ve told my stories on DL many times over the years, so I’ll spare you the details. Suffice to say, I’m not interested in living in a country that seeks any sort of commonality with that nightmare of a country. If Trump and his deplorables only knew what the Russians think of him.

R346 I'm insured in my main country of residence, in Germany. My house in France is my "vacation home" but I do spend a lot of time there as well. In the EU we have a Eurpoean health insurance card which entitles you to care in all EU countries without breaking the bank.

I live in Germany and it really isn’t all that great, especially with the influx of refugees—who definitely aren’t as sweet and wonderful as people portray. I’ve witnessed anti gay attacks several times in the past year...something I’ve never seen in the US. I’d rather live in Croatia or Poland, where the people are nicer anyways.

"Argentina?!"

[quote]I’ve witnessed anti gay attacks several times in the past year...something I’ve never seen in the US

You haven’t looked very hard then

If I had the money, I’d move to Switzerland and buy Elizabeth Taylor’s chalet in Gstaad. I wonder if Miss Taylor’s estate sold it or if it’s still in the family. I’d love to live in Switzerland.

Switzerland...the country where you pay $10 for a can of tuna and where you face sanctions in your apartment building if you flush a toilet after 11 pm. No thanks.

I just learned that I qualify for Italian citizenship and an Italian passport through my grandfather. Has anyone gone through the process of trying to get it? Did you use an assistance service, or do it yourself? Was it worth it?

R371 I'd get citizenship just for visa free travel to the most beautiful country on earth.

R371, contact the Italian consulate serving your area to find out what forms and documentation you need before deciding whether or not to use a service. You'll probably save a lot by doing it yourself.

I need certified copies of my grandfather's birth certificate from Italy and my grandparents' Italian marriage certificate. I don't speak a word of Italian, so I think that requesting them myself might be a dicey proposition.

Do whatever you have to to get EU citizenship, r371. It's incredibly useful just for travel (hardly anyone hates the Italians), and you never know when you might actually have to move there.

Putin and Trump plan to invade Montenegro, so I guess it is out.

This link shows how to do it, but yes, it sounds sightly nightmarish.

I wish I had planned a little better because I think I would have felt comfortable in Central America. It ain't happening. I feel like I am at war, at war and without a gun. I do what I can.

Thanks R377. I'm going to take the advice there and start with an email inquiry to my ancestral town to at least try to find out what the fees are. If I hit a wall, I'll hire a service. The good news is that I've found all of the pertinent records using an Ancestry.com search, so at least I know that they exist.

To R338, They live in Ajijic on Lake Chapala in the state of Jalisco, east of Puerto Vallarta and about an hour from Guadalajara Airport. There are other towns on the lake. Ajijic is know to be gay friendly. I work with a Mexican woman who's from that area and she says she'd like to retire there, it's beautiful.

My friends there love it but the transition wasn't always easy. There are issues with immigrating to Mexico, like how many cars you can bring in from the US and fees related to that. They also maintain medical specialists in the US because the local specialty care isn't as good. They come back to the US once or twice a year (sometimes more).

Beauty.

Since I’m not rich, I won’t trek to Switzerland. I’d like to relocate to Montreal. I love cold climates, I figure I’ll keep better.

I’d move there. It’s hot in the summer too

Interesting vid, worth the (17 min) time to watch.

Didn't know the rest of the world views Americans as fearful and paranoid.

Hopefully they see Americans for what we are.

Yes. Go to Italy. What could go wrong?

Razors pain you;

Rivers are damp;

Acids stain you;

And drugs cause cramp.

Guns aren’t lawful;

Nooses give;

Gas smells awful;

You might as well live.

By the time you fill out all the paper work it will be 2020 and someone else will be president.

R384, interesting

An easy way to begin the process of moving to Europe is to apply for a Masters degree in a European University. Your age doesn't matter and fees are much lower in Euro Unis than in USA.

Programs are only one year and during that year one makes connections to jobs. I've seen it hundreds of times.

Another route, keep checking job vacancies in the UN and other international orgs and NGOs. They all work in English and are happy to hire native speakers.

There are many ways to live abroad successfully so when I read posts about visa and job related difficulties I have to roll my eyes.

[quote]Didn't know the rest of the world views Americans as fearful and paranoid.

The "rest of the world" views Americans as exceedingly naive and gullible.

^ Agreed. But watch the short video and then read the comments below it.

The comments are very recent and are actually more interesting and enlightening than the video.

Several downsides to Italy, as beautiful as it is. For one, the economy in Italy is in the shitter. Even if you can work remotely or don't need employment there you'll still be somehow impacted and affected by that.

The other thing is that volcano threat in Southern Italy is a REAL threat, not some fear-monger story. It is a real threat. Everyday.

If it blows, most people within a 100 miles of it will not survive and more than that many homes will be gone. Forever. No rebuilding like in earthquakes, at least not in our lifetime. Many survivors will have serious life-long, life-threatening respiratory problems. All the way around, it will be disastrous and survivors will not be compensated and helped out of that crisis, such as federal aid, etc. Like all of the other survivors they'll be looking for another country to take them in. No thanks.

I'm thinking of Croatia. Somewhere near the coast.

R384 she’s right. I’m European living in the States and my anxiety has skyrocketed since moving here. I think of things that would never have crossed my mind elsewhere.

I know what you mean, R395, and I don't live in the States - I just have lots of American friends on Facebook. I've had to cut back drastically on that platform because I have a high level of stress anyway and when I log on I encounter people who are on edge all the time and who blow up in panic, anger or fear every week or so in response to news items. I think Americans who can travel should, not necessarily to escape permanently - I don't think it'll come to that though it doesn't hurt to be prepared - but to get away from that atmosphere for a time.

Travel. That implies vacation time which many of us don’t have

True, R397, I understand that most people can't simply take off on a whim.

It's more wishful thinking, really. I'd like to get my friends away for a break. They'd probably just think I'm weird, though.

Move to Scotland! Bring your hottest guys and leave the fraus in the gutter from which they crawled from!

I actually now hate vacation because I spend the whole time dreading the return. Easier not to deal with the anticipatory anxiety at all and try to maintain some level of calm constant meditative peace.

FYI: I'm a kiwi. I've traveled all over the world but wouldn't actually live anywhere else, because i love it here despite our local problems.

I used to live in Auckland (the most diverse city) worked with a lot of immigrants but not many Americans and I was told recently that Americans have trouble getting work and integrating into society in NZ - nobody likes them or wants to hire an American, although any other country is fine. When I was going up in the 80s, there was a lot of anti-American sentiment and it seems like it never really went away.

I recently moved to a tourist city and run into a lot of people from USA but you just rarely see them as immigrants, only as tourists. Kiwis are generally very friendly people and we love tourists, but I think it's hard for a certain type of American to adjust as they just expect to be liked because they are from the "best country on the planet" and are seen as loud and arrogant. Personally, I do not feel that way, but I guess that's just how it is, which is a shame.

If anyone is considering moving here (and can afford it) perhaps coming to stay on a work visa first and checking it out might be prudent.

[quote] When I was going up

Should be GROWING up - sorry about that.

Hahahahahaha

I assumed “going up” is how Kiwis say “growing up.”

R12 Indeed. Russia is the shithole of Europe.

r402 I'd rather have Yanks over here than more bloody complaining Brits and arrogant Saffas.

In any case, you can all fuck off because the last thing we need is more people. Not because of population density, but because successive governments have lacked any foresight into investing in infrastructure.

The lasts thing is to bring immigrants in to build houses because there aren't enough to house people. So they are bringing more people in. To build houses. To house people.

This is the sort of fuckery that goes on every day here.

*latest thing r406

What's a "Saffa?"

South African emigré. Over time, I changed all of my main service providers to 'saffas' - doctor, dentist, mechanic. They were far better trained and much more customer service oriented than their native-born counterparts. And exceptionally honest as well.

They Love to kick it

[quote]And exceptionally honest as well.

I've had the complete opposite experience, unfortunately. And now that I have married a South African, I see it in all his relatives too.

Lying monsters

I think 20 years ago the SA emigrés to NZ were professional people who were educated and decent. But in the last 10 years, a lot of (white) trash have arrived. I have SA neighbours who are awful.

For those coming to Europe i would suggest Spain as well. The climate is better than most of Europe, super gay friendly and the guys are hot. The language is easy to learn, too.

OP knows he is not going to leave.

Its hard, emigrating. I've traveled a lot, sometimes spending months in another country. I love it while I'm there but it's a relief to come home (this is obviously pre-Trump) and just be able to take things for granted, you know? Living in another country, you are assailed daily by stuff you don't know or understand. It just gets wearying. People might think, oh Kiwis and Canadians are basically just like us. No, they are not. They have an entirely different history which has shaped their culture and their personalities.

I'm in a position where I could emigrate (grandparents) to a European country. I don't have a partner anymore or much family left or even many friends but I still hold off.

It’s hard getting the visa

Bump

I believe in 1969, there was a hell of a riot in Chicago, Mayor Fuckhead. We should have a much larger riot than that, only in DC and the White House needs to burn.

Our democracy is worth fighting for.

[quote]I believe in 1969, there was a hell of a riot in Chicago, Mayor Fuckhead.

In addition to the one in 1968?

Fuck this shithole

Well, Australia doesn't want us. I can't speak French, so south of France is out. Canada is beautiful in the summer but the winters are too much. Maybe one of the islands in the Caribbean?

^ Not only are Canadian winters long and harsh but so is the Canadian Citizenship process.

If you can work from anywhere maybe the islands would be a good choice.

The world is a shit hole these days.

Humans shat all over it, we're the worst cockroaches of all time.

Is it time?

[quote]Canada is beautiful in the summer but the winters are too much.

Why are you gurls so frightened of the winter? It's ridiculous.

Lizzo for President!

R427 not ridiculous because it is genetic

Venezuela?

I am getting residency in Thailand, It requires 23K in a Thai bank.

Op's image shouts 3 words on a license plate somewhere

We've found the country and staying right here, thank you

Pretty little things

You should try China!

Beautiful place

Anywhere but the USA, Op! Leave now, asshole!

Yellowknife, it's the next Portland:

Bump

Malta. Or the farthest Western reaches of England (Cornwall) or France (Brittany).

[quote]Or the farthest Western reaches of England (Cornwall) or France (Brittany).

What are you going to do when you get to such a place?

Yellowknife is supposed to be amazing for lesbians.

Really r431? I think they are tightening things up though, I probably read about it here.

I once went to Cornwall to check it out as a place to possibly live.

It didn't cut the mustard.

Also, because it's a peninsula it's pretty cut off. You have to travel all the way back to get anywhere. Bit like Florida, I guess.

yall being drama queens

Have you ever been to me?

Think we had a similar thread about this not too long ago. Currently I'm living outside the U.S. and next year I plan to return to the U.S. for a minimum of six months to see if I want to live there permanently. Otherwise I'd try to obtain permanent residency in either Scotland (who may remain with the U.K. or not) or Switzerland. For me it doesn't make a difference where I live. I only want to live in peace and make new friends in a place where I feel comfortable.

These country-hoppers are tiresome.

R440, Some of my ancestors came from Land's End. I've been there, as well as much of Cornwall. In Brittany, I could happily live in Quimper or Concarneau.

What would I do in Cornwall?

Time to bump this thread ...

Let’s go to Brazil.

Canada...where my girlfriend lives!

I'm going to me.....

I have dreams of Costa Rico. Isn’t it inexpensive, Gay-friendly, English speakingish, and relatively safe?

(What does relatively mean?)

I want to write a letter to Trump asking of he can spot me the cash to go back to where I came from.

Of course, both sides of my family came to Pennsylvania from the Germany/Switzerland area in the early 1700s. [sigh]

I looked into German citizenship once, I’m a quarter German via my Mom’s Dad, and quarter German through my Dad’s Mom. I wasn’t eligible, since both lines flow through a maternal ancestor. I would have qualified if either was through a paternal source. IIRC, they changed that law in 1971 to allow citizenship through a maternal line.

When I called the nearby consulate to ask about this, the German woman I spoke to’s reaction was “WHY!?”, as if it was unthinkable!

I like Germany, and also wanted the EU travel rights.

After 30 years in California, 5 years ago I moved to Santiago and it was the best decision of my life. I bought an apartment in a bohemian barrio in the heart of the city with a rooftop view of the Andes and a condo over looking the Pacific, just a few hours from the city. I could never afford this lifestyle in California! The climate is identical to SoCal and the people are friendly... and very attractive. Healthcare is a 10th the cost of the States. Chile has the lowest crime rate of any Latin American country, much safer than Costa Rica, and is #1 in LAM in regards to economic stability. The scenery is spectacular and looks a lot like California. Great food, modern subway, direct flights to US, Europe, and Australia. I have my permanent residency visa and will have my citizenship in just a few more years. I have an amazing atty who makes my life very easy and it would have been impossible to have the life I do without her help. Chile isn't for everyone, but is definitely for me. Me encanta.

Bump

No new places I see. I guess we covered them all.

I moved because I wanted to live in Spain, not because I wanted to escape the U.S. and love it here