New York : The Death of a Once Great City

One common belief, even in many liberal circles, is that the cause of these outrageous rents and prices is the very government intervention that was intended to ameliorate them: rent regulation. This notion might have some validity if, say, rent regulations in New York stifled construction. But they don’t. New buildings in the city are not subject to rent control and never have been. More than 40,000 new buildings went up during Michael Bloomberg’s twelve years as mayor (2002–13), and another 25,000 buildings were demolished. The city continues to furiously tear itself down and build itself back up again. New buildings are spiked into every available lot, and they rise higher than ever before.

[quote] For the first time in its history, New York is, well, boring.

Yes it's true. It's boring. I've felt this for almost ten years. So I guess, for me, since the bailout of the too important to fail if I had to put a marker on the boredom.

Same is true in San Francisco where I was born. It's physically beautiful but contained on a small peninsula. It's been a desirable place to live for a long time but now it's just ridiculous. I left because I could no longer tolerate the hoards. I still love the city and visit frequently but I also love going home to a more relaxed setting where I can actually find parking places and don't have to pick up bags of trash from my yard every week and step over homeless people and always carry an umbrella to ward off unexpected attacks.

NYC is expensive and dull, like a high end shopping mall

It's a good article. Thanks op

New York is an Orlandofied parody of itself. Nothing says this clearer than Broadway theater, where you pay hundreds of dollars to see Frozen, Aladdin, SpongeBob Squarepants and King Kong - the same characters you see at Disney World and Universal Studios.

So true, R6.

[quote] If things turn against them it will be too easy for the angry mob to surround them as they have boxed themselves into specific areas.

Notice how this never happens though. The poor always take it out on their own people and infrastructure.

The author of the article writes about the street where he still lives in Queens. This captures the New York I remember and miss.

We have been almost a parody of multiculturalism on our little street. Black and white, Hispanic and Asian; straight, gay, and transgender; families of all kinds—extended, adopted, arranged by convenience or design. Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist. I would come home and see the daughters of our Sikh mailman, before they grew up, playing baseball in the halls. In the evening, I sat at my desk in a little space, in this building cubbyholed with other little spaces and held together by what was once described as “a hundred years of spit and dust,” and felt as though I were poised over the center of the world. Beneath me I could hear a hive of dinnertime conversations carried on in half a dozen languages, smell cooking that came from all over the world, hear someone ringing a gong and repeating a Buddhist chant.

It is through all these interactions, multiplied a million times, that a truly great city is made. The street life—the warrens of little shops and businesses that once sustained our neighborhood in the sort of “exuberant diversity” that Jane Jacobs considered a prerequisite for a successful city—is being eradicated as well: the botanica on 96th Street that Susan, my sister-in-law, always visited to buy her healing herbs when she was in town; the Indian spice shop next to it, with the protective elephant-headed idol of Ganesh mounted outside.

So if NYC is in decline what do you guys think will replace it as the next great American city?

The next great American city will be in Canada.

As a New Yorker, I've been trying to start up a blog about what's been happening to NYC but just haven't gotten around to it because things have been getting torn down at such a fast pace that it's overwhelming to keep track of it all. It used to be that every two or three years, a local institution would get closed but now every other day neighborhoods are seeing local stores, restaurants, etc. getting torn down for a luxury high rise or Starbucks.

Just to show you how bad things are getting, some dumb Canuck at the NY Times wrote an article crowing about how Canal Street was all cleaned up now that people can buy $17 lobster rolls and $10,000 pendants there. (The original title of the piece was, "Canal Street Cleans Up Nice.") Like, WTF? The whole charm of Chinatown was that it was as close to eating and shopping at a Chinese town as you could get but now assholes are saying it's all cleaned up now because they're tearing everything down to put up a bevy of Starbucks and chichi boutiques?

It's bad enough that developers are destroying neighborhoods, they're taking the attractions that used to be accessible to the middle and working class and paving them over for the elites and affluent tourists. For example, the South Street Seaport is getting nothing but high class restaurants and retail. Don't get me wrong; it was always a little expensive for being a tourist trap but it wasn't astronomically expensive.

The waterside parks along Brooklyn have been completely overrun with mass tourism. They used to be gorgeous, quiet oases away from the craziness of city life; now they're even more crowded and insane than Times Square at the peak of summer. I hate what's happened so much to this city, I could scream.

This is a really good blog about all the businesses in NYC that are being wiped out. I made my escape from NYC several years ago, moved to Chicago where rents are cheaper and the city is more livable.

[Quote]So if NYC is in decline what do you guys think will replace it as the next great American city?

Personally, I don't see any replacement. The elements that made New York so distinctive are forever gone. The United States no longer has burgeoning international cities with huge swaths of immigrants, working and middle-class families, and struggling artist types who these cities their vibrancy and charm.

The closest might be the revitalization of the smaller rust-belt cities that might serve as cultural hubs throughout the United States. But you'd have to constantly travel between them to enjoy any avant-garde experiences and such. No more finding all of that in just a single place like the old New York.

All the cool gays are moving to Baltimore.

Strangely Houston seems to me a truly international city with lots of immigrants and little subcultures of ethnicities. Will never have the street level interaction - but as a NYer, it reminds me of Queens diversity in terms of income variation, ethnicities, food and mom and pop businesses that can afford to pay little rent for a random Vietnamese import shop or the like.

[quote]So if NYC is in decline what do you guys think will replace it as the next great American city?

There will be no great American city. The reason why is that the greedy neoliberal elite who are behind all of this are vultures who are going after any city in the US and anywhere else in the world that shows even the slightest hint of becoming "great." Meaning, as soon as any city anywhere starts to generate any kind of buzz (for being arty, quirky, interesting, etc.), they swoop in. They tear down buildings to put up luxury rentals for jet setters who have multiple homes around the globe, or they turn the cities into a magnet of mass tourism.

NYC is a giant high-end shopping mall now.

The prevailing critique of American cities from the right, dating back to the Sixties, was that our existing social welfare state was unsustainable. The question haunting our urban success stories today is whether the prevailing conservative addiction to privately owned, government-subsidized mega-development is sustainable. Already, there are indications that the whole gimcrack structure is starting to give way. Before the end of last summer, The Real Deal was reporting a significant softening of the Manhattan condo market, with inventory up a hefty 35 percent from the year before.

With many of their buildings still just half-full or less, even after the initial rush to buy into them, developers are scrambling now, trying to encourage brokers with higher commissions; offering to pay for buyers’ closing costs, storage units, and parking spaces; and shaving as much as 10 percent off the prices. The Madison Square Park Tower, an eighty-three-unit condo at 45 East 22nd Street, was offering, The Real Deal reports, “to throw in two studio apartments and two parking spots for any buyer willing to shell out $48 million for the building’s 7,000-square foot penthouse.”

This weakness has even begun to spread to Billionaires’ Row. The majority investor at 111 West 57th Street claimed in court that the building is facing a $100 million shortfall. All those sumac meanders don’t grow on trees. Extell’s One57 suffered the Row’s first two foreclosures in 2017, including a possibly record-setting $50.9 million foreclosure on a condo contracted by one of its “mystery buyers.” (The New York Post later identified him as a Nigerian oil tycoon.) Extell even failed to rent out thirty-eight lower-floor units at One57, opting instead to list them for sale at a discounted price.

I lived in NYC during the 70s and early 80s. The mystery, the thrill of discovery, the privacy...the buzz about something new and interesting happening....the city was exciting in a way that it can never be again.... not with the advent of the internet and social media.

No one is "hoarding" anything. It's a housing market that's in demand, so prices will be high.

As much as it has lost its edge and became insanely expensive, I still miss the intensity and anonymity of the crowds when I’m away. And I still find interesting people here who are more aware of the world. Simply as a result of the daily diversity of people we work with and interact with, the tolerance is baked into people’s behavior. Not saying other cities don’t have it - or that it’s as tolerant as it was (especially of the poor) - but it still has something unique based purely on its size.

[Quote]It is approaching a state where it is no longer a significant cultural entity but the world’s largest gated community, with a few cupcake shops here and there. [Bold]For the first time in its history, New York is, well, boring.[/bold]

[Quote]Those of us who have been in New York for any amount of time are immediately suspected of nostalgia if we dare to compare our shiny city of today unfavorably, in any way, with what came before. So let me make one thing perfectly clear, as that old New Yorker Dick Nixon used to say, and list right now all the things I hated about the New York of the Seventies: crime, dirt, days-old garbage left on the street, cockroaches, the Bronx burning, homelessness, discarded hypodermic needles on my building’s stoop, discarded crack vials—and packs of burned-out matches—on my building’s stoop, cockroaches that scattered everywhere when you turned on the light, entire Brooklyn neighborhoods looking like a bombed-out Dresden, subway cars on which only one door—or no door—opened when the train came in, subway cars cooled in summer rush hours only by a single fan that swung slowly around and around, deindustrialization, those really big cockroaches that we called water bugs for some reason and that crunched under your feet.

[Quote]New York today—in the aggregate—is probably a wealthier, healthier, cleaner, safer, less corrupt, and better-run city than it has ever been. The same can be said for most of those other cities seen as recent urban success stories, from Los Angeles to Philadelphia, Atlanta to Portland, Oregon. But we don’t live in the aggregate. [Bold]For all of New York’s shiny new skin and shiny new numbers, what’s most amazing is how little of its social dysfunction the city has managed to eliminate over the past four decades.[/bold] Homelessness is at or near record levels. The Bronx, poster child for the bleakness of the city in the Seventies, remains the poorest urban county in the country, with almost 40 percent of the South Bronx, or more than a quarter-million people, still living below the poverty line. Bus-stop ads all over New York urge everyone to carry the emergency medication naloxone so that they can reverse some of the overdoses that kill nearly four New Yorkers every day.

This "better and safer" New York only benefits the most wealthiest and blandest of its current residents. New York has finally become a Stepford Wife. Goddamn.

Nothing lasts forever, Blanche.

The same can be said of Los Angeles 23. Before the flyover tsunami hit there were signs of LA finally becoming a melting pot. But then metastatic gentrification happened and now I see the kinds of people here that, those of us who came from suburbia, fled from. They are everywhere, like cockroaches of old New York.

The prevailing idea that we now live in the best of all possible New Yorks remains a powerful one. A rationalization, perhaps, to compensate for the frustration we experience living in a system that no one really likes but that we feel helpless to alter. In a recent history-memoir titled St. Marks Is Dead, the journalist Ada Calhoun laid on another such coat of Pangloss with her entertaining narrative of one of New York’s most fabled streets and neighborhoods. She concedes that the apartment she grew up in now would cost $5,000 a month but insists,

Who understands the soul of any place? Who deserves to be here? Who is the interloper and who the interloped-upon? Who can say which drunk NYU student stumbling down St. Marks Place will wind up writing the next classic novel or making the next great album?

Well, it will have to be a drunk NYU student who can afford $5,000 a month in rent. What Calhoun and the other adamant Pollyannas refuse to understand is that a bar is one thing, a dance hall is one thing, and even a Gap or a Starbucks is one thing, but a bank branch is another. It is a carpet and a machine from which one extracts money, then leaves. No one is writing a novel or an album about it. Those things that we do not value, that we do not actively protect, fade away and die.

The NYU expansion is awful. Lots of boring, basic kids who are totally irritating. Everywhere.

Who needs a house out in Hackensack?

[Quote][bold]Things I liked about that old New York, now vanished? My neighbors. Most of them are gone or going now, after decades in the same visibly slouching, century-old apartment house where I live.[/bold] In the apartment below ours, from the day I moved in back in 1980 with three friends from college, was Mercedes, an immigrant from the Dominican Republic, with her extended family of three generations. When her mother, Anna, a sunny, religious, and unfailingly kind woman, began to decline with the years, Mercedes tended to her devotedly at home, bringing a hospital bed into their living room. But their rent-controlled apartment was in Anna’s name, and when she died, Mercedes and her husband could no longer afford even the stabilized rent and decided to move back to the Dominican Republic. After all those years, they were just gone, almost overnight.

[Quote][bold]I like my new neighbors. They’re terrific people, just like the old ones, and drawn from nearly as many different places. Better educated, usually, with better jobs, but just as friendly and helpful.[bold] They tend to be younger, with younger families, and it’s nice to hear and see so many kids in the building again. On the surface, this would seem to be what New York—and America—is all about: everyone moving on up another rung on the socioeconomic ladder, the city filling again with the next extraordinary group of people who will cherish and enhance it.

[Quote][bold]But I try not to get too attached, for I know that their time here is limited.[/bold] It couldn’t help but be, paying as much as $5,000 a month, as they do, to squeeze growing families into 700 square feet. [Bold]They are transient, here only for a few years at most, until the next child or the next job[/bold]—until they can buy a place of their own, or the home company in France or California decides to stop subsidizing such outrageous rents.

[Quote]Even for those who can afford the new New York, it is unclear how much they actually like it or maintain any ability to shape it to their tastes. [Bold]What is the point, after all, of paying a fortune to live in a city that is more and more like everywhere else?[/bold]

This. There's not even enough of us with the ability to remain, and transform New York into some semblance of what we had before. New York has been royally fucked.

I'm young and have never been to NYC. So I don't know what I've missed or didn't miss.

Knowing me and the type of person I am, I'd probably like this new NY better. If I want old NY, I'll just watch old movies on TCM that took place in the city.

You can't miss what you've never had/experienced.

R30 it was dirty, grimy. You could be mugged or stabbed for walking down the wrong block.

Oops, sorry about the extensive bolding. I only meant to bold a few sentences, but I inadvertently messed up, and ending up bolding most of the post.

Sorry, again.

[quote]This "better and safer" New York only benefits the most wealthiest and blandest of its current residents. New York has finally become a Stepford Wife. Goddamn.

You reminded me of this new development, Nemehiah Spring Creek, which is where they're moving all the working class black immigrants who were priced out of their neighborhoods. Notice anything weird about it?

Unlike their old neighborhoods, there are no local moms and pops dotted, no parks, no services (laundromats, barber shops, pharmacies, legal services) placed here and there every so often to break up the monotony and get locals to interact with each other on a day to day basis. It's literally just blocks and blocks of this very same facade stretching as far as the eye can see in every direction.

It was more than that r31. The negatives are easy to impress upon people unfamiliar with the city. It's easy to prey on fears.

The only way to truly understand, other than the danger aspects, would be to travel. Go to some European cities that are walkable, have great little cafes and family owned shops, music and theaters large and small. . .culture and an air of possibility from streets that pulse with energy.

Turn your phone off. Stop watching tv for a month. Read Just Kids by Patti Smith. Watch movie The Goodbye Girl, it's really dated but has a good New York feel. Or Fame 80's movie version. There are better examples, don't know why I can't think of them.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

[Quote]Knowing me and the type of person I am, I'd probably like this new NY better.

What's so attractive and preferable about today's New York to you, r31? What would you (or do you) enjoy most about it in its current form? Just curious.

R36 is meant for r30.

[Quote]it was dirty, grimy. You could be mugged or stabbed for walking down the wrong block.

You can also get mugged or stabbed in Boulder, CO, R31.

[quote]Watch movie The Goodbye Girl, it's really dated but has a good New York feel.

I'm sorry. Watch [italic]whom[/italic]?

[quote]Knowing me and the type of person I am, I'd probably like this new NY better.

You have no idea whether you'd like the new NYC better because you have no idea what it was like before or after.

I wish I could have visited the seedy, porn shop on every-other-corner NYC of the 1970s.

I grew up in Brooklyn in the 80s and 90s and there’s a lot about the “new” NYC I like better. But it’s impossible to know how much of what’s better is just general technological advances and how much are changes purposefully implemented by the gvmt. I miss the feeling of the village and west village and the grimy gay bars of my younger years. But a lot of what is being lamented as lost here can still be found in the outer boroughs in the mainly immigrant neighborhoods.

I hate our new skyline and that Manhattan has become an Island solely accessible to the wealthy.

Well the subway could use some technological advances that's for fucking sure.

My ex and I had no money so for entertainment so we would take the train to Greenwich Village and sit on a park bench and people watch all day. This was in the 60's during the Hippie era. I t was completely intriguing. If we had any money we would do a little shopping. I loved the Village and being there. I can't tell you if I ever saw anyone famous because it wasn't important so I wasn't paying attention. It was a great time to be there but all things have to change in order to move forward. Can you imagine if we were all still hippies?? Times Square was wonderful and then it was horrible and then it was wonderful again. NY will never die and will always be great, it's just going thru another transformation.

R14, I think you are on to something--there won't just be one NYC, there will be many smaller cities with that kind of cache. The big cities will be too expensive.

Don't tell anyone but I hear Asheville and Austin are the next best kept secrets!

Most of these mos posting are upset about things like smart phones. That's not specific to New York. They hate any type of progress. They're still mad about the invention of the wheel.

[Quote]Don't tell anyone but I hear Asheville and Austin are the next best kept secrets!

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.........

R44 Anything interesting comes only from people who are poor or was poor and had to struggle.

r49 I agree. All my life people have told me I should write a book.

What I don't understand is why they still allow gas-combustion vehicles there. Imagine instead an ocean of bicycles flowing through The City. It would be so much better for the planet.

[quote]NY will never die and will always be great, it's just going thru another transformation.

Yes, a transformation in which it's now becoming interchangeable with every other city, filled with the same chain stores and only accessible to the super rich.

So if someone wanted to move to NYC, would you guys suggest they mpve to Queens or brooklyn?

These types are ruining the city too!

Well no one can afford Brooklyn anymore R53. Elizabeth, NJ is a more prudent choice.

The HDFC also makes sure only Trust Fund babies can purchase apartments: $550k apartment, 50% down, income limit $70k/year

Oh my god, Millennials are so fucking stupid. r54

R53 Queens has also gotten expensive. Just the same, I'd recommend Astoria-LIC, Sunnyside, or Jackson Heights.

A landed gentry is here now, not only in NY but all over. Los Angeles is a city of homeowners that call all the shots on if anything is built. So, nothing is built. They reap the rewards of having a home, buying more and more rental property and still not allowing anything to be built near them. After moving to California, the starkness of who rents and who owns is right there in your face.

You might want to consider The Bronx, r53. It's supposed to be the new Harlem or Bushwick.

Too many capitalist pigs here who don't mind sacrificing culture as long as their bank balances increase.

R59, my friend moved from California because apparently the police there are worthless and do absolutely nothing. He was saying something about how a homeless man would repeatedly cause a lot of drama and act pretty outrageous at his girlfriend's Starbucks and when she called the police on him, they told her not to call them again unless he actually physically harmed someone. I"ve heard similar things from people who have left California for other states.

Regardless, I visited LA three years ago and I actually felt it was more diverse and the population much more sexually attracive and fashionable than Chicago. Of course, I do not include downtown LA in this. But driving there is a nightmare, like Chicago rush hour ALL THE TIME. I don't know how people deal with that. How would anyone ever manage to make plans with their friends?

No 59 you are full of shit. Foreign money drove up the prices of homes in LA. People came in and offered 4 to 5 times the asking price. These are foreigners just like in others cities. Many of these neighborhood are small, the streets narrow barely able to accommodate parking on both sides of the street, add bumper to bumper traffic to communities like that. No parking before the influx, still no parking now. The schools overflowing as it is, what happens when you add more? There are areas of the city that can accommodate more people. The valley has wider streets, easier access to the freeways without causing traffic jambs through small neighborhoods. More building around downtown also gives better access to freeways. But developers want to advertise and draw people to all the smaller neighborhoods that had charm which now have lost all the charm they had due to over crowding and traffic jambs through tiny streets.

You are a fool talking out of your ass. You don't know the neighborhoods. You don't understand the impact. Ever heard of city planning? The city council and the mayor haven't either.

[quote]As a New Yorker, I've been trying to start up a blog about what's been happening to NYC but just haven't gotten around to it because things have been getting torn down at such a fast pace that it's overwhelming to keep track of it all.

Jeremiah's Vanishing New York covers that pretty well. (Note: Jeremiah is a woman to man transsexual)

That's right R49. Poor people make the world go round.

There are plenty of affordable neighborhoods in Brooklyn still - Kensington, ditmas park, Gravesend and Bensonhurst. You have to be willing to have a lengthy commute though.

Living in st George in Staten Island near the (free) ferry is also an option. Or way up in Manhattan in Hamilton heights or inwood

r62 I don't know where in LA you were because all I see are doughy Mid Western types pushing strollers and walking around with their pasty doughy visiting families. All the types that mid westerners leave home to avoid have infiltrated the big cities. All the Aunt and Uncle Bland who used to make a trips to see Broadway shows and museums (cause they are so very cool) now are neighbors making everything around them beige.

R62 that's because it's not considered woke to enforce the law in Cali anymore. People are leaving Cali in droves for that and many other reason.

This is why I’m moving to Boston

Boston is also overpriced.

R6, this I believe is in part due to the degradation of education. Instead is studying Shakespeare, Plato, and Nietzche, students learn about feminist theory and how Europeans destroyed the world. Critical thinking is not encouraged, unless it’s in the science or engineering fields. Creativity is dead, and prolonged adolescence is considered desirable.

If anyone fucking mentions goddamn Austin again. For the love of christ. Its ugly as fuck and hot. Just drive south or north on 35 .. rather the frontage roads.. ugly as fuck all the way from Oltorf to Stassney. Peopke stop drinking the fucking Austin koolaid

Thank goodness, R68! Sayonara..

Oh r68 it would be heavenly if that were true.

Meh. Shakespeare is overrated

^What a profound comment, including "meh" as a beautiful and original flourish!

It's because the NYC based arts and media industries -- where the cultural mavericks once emerged -- are not high risk taking enough anymore, they hire too safely and predictably now, through establishment academic and networking channels, like banks and investment firms do. So that leaves fewer opportunities for virtual unknowns to start-out taking lower pay for the chance to build an actual name brand for themselves, commanding more pay later but gaining value through actual work and self promotion.

In turn, this isolates entire groups of perhaps highly talented but cash poor newbies out of the housing market.

[quote]where the cultural mavericks once emerged -- are not high risk taking enough anymore, they hire too safely and predictably now, through establishment academic and networking channels, like banks and investment firms do.

Or it's just that like I'm seeing in entertainment, anyone with a husband or wife or child or niece or nephew. . .who either needs a job switch or who never had any ambition in the first place is being given a job leaving no where for people who have actual talent and ambition to find a spot. On all levels this is true, behind and in front of the camera. It's always been who you know gets you in the door but now it's nearly the ONLY thing that gets you in the door. Experience and talent? Who needs it?

[quote] One common belief, even in many liberal circles, is that the cause of these outrageous rents and prices is the very government intervention that was intended to ameliorate them: rent regulation.

NOPE

Less than 2% of NYC housing stock is rent controlled. Rent control has been a conservative boogeyman that hasnt been relevant since 1990, when rent controlled tenants died off in huge numbers and landlords won the right to kick out relatives of the original leaseholder. You can’t “inherit” a rent controlled apartment anymore unless you actually lived in it for years with the leaseholder and your landlord regularly found you there, you were registered to vote there and you received mail there.. And trust me, landlords were constantly checking on rent controlled apartments to see if greedy relatives were trying to scam the law.

I did know a couple who lived in a rent controlled apartment in the 1990s. They had 3 kids. The first two kids were sent off to college at 17 and it was made clear they needed to get a job when they graduated and move in with roommates because the apartment wasn’t big enough for three kids. There was a big age gap between the older kids and the youngest “surprise” kid. It was a shotgun apartment, it was infested with mice and the kitchen and bathroom had ceiling lights that turned on with a string that hung down from the bare lightbulbs. There were no electrical outlets in the bathroom. It seriously gave me the creeps the one and only time I used it. The kitchen had one electrical outlet and I can’t even describe what it looked like. There were layers of peeling paint in the bathroom and kitchen. I was in pretty good shape back then, walking all over the city, but even I got winded walking up all the stairs to their apartment. They paid $500 a month. It had 2 bedrooms. I’m sure the building will be torn down very soon and a giant highrise put in its place.

Not to mention you have no idea what landlords did to get rent controlled tenants out of their apartments, including hiring hit men.

I benefit from rent stabilization. I’ve lived here for 30 years in a building of studios and 1 BRs that was filled with eccentric old Village folks who have been passing away and replaced with single people under 35 paying over $3k/month. They are either subsidized by parents - who I meet because they scout out the building and introduce themselves when their kids move in even though the kids NEVER say hi - or working in finance and are nasty condescending prigs who have an obscene amount of Amazon deliveries stuffing the lobby.

I’ll stick it out until I die because I’m lucky to have rent stabilization. But get rid of rent stabilization, and me and anyone with an income < $100k is gone. It’s happening slowly - but stabilization is the only dam against the extreme concentration of wealth in Manhattan.

R63, Small bungalow owner in West Hollywood, seething that a four story apartment building is going up three miles away.

You didn't read far enough r79

[quote]This notion might have some validity if, say, rent regulations in New York stifled construction. But they don’t. New buildings in the city are not subject to rent control and never have been. More than 40,000 new buildings went up during Michael Bloomberg’s twelve years as mayor (2002–13), and another 25,000 buildings were demolished. The city continues to furiously tear itself down and build itself back up again. New buildings are spiked into every available lot, and they rise higher than ever before.

Plenty of new buildings have been built that are high rent more than 40,000. So many new units with high rent that easily make up for rent stabilized buildings.

R78 I know what you're saying about legitimate nepotism. However, I do think you can't hold it against someone when they were raised submerged in an industry/family business and were literally formed on certain skills, images, sounds, etc. If you watched your father lay bricks from the moment of your first retrievable memory, remembered the family conversations about how to manage a businesses, listened as your father talked with dealers about brick quality, etc., you may emerge with an inside education about an industry that peers your age simply do not have.

However, if despite this, someone excels beyond you, they should be given the opportunity. But people used to be driven by success and not just comfort: They wanted to build a family legacy, a brand name. Big companies do not allot any resources, any company time and access at all for the high talent wild cards, with a pitch off the street. There was a time when people who peddle a portfolio of drop off tapes or manuscripts and have a pie in the sky chance of gaining access based purely on unusual talent and charisma.

There's no place for that high risk in companies, anymore because too many people want the security of a, basically, non Capitalist system, with the perks of Capitalism. But you can't have it both ways without society suffering from it in some significant way, including the death of cities.

Nope r81. Try again.

R81, not playing. You are obviously the NIMBY icon of the never build anything ever set. LA, like every other large city will have just the super rich and the renters. And by super rich, owning a home in California will entitle you to the super rich club. Not many people can afford an average north of 650,000 grand. But we have people like you to thank. Wherever you may live in CA.

There is always Jersey City - but not sure I could ever deign to have an address Jersey City, NJ. At least the Bronx has some cache.

[Quote]I benefit from rent stabilization. I’ve lived here for 30 years in a building of studios and 1 BRs that was filled with eccentric old Village folks who have been passing away and replaced with single people under 35 paying over $3k/month.

Ah, yes yes! Like our darling Nan. Nan's a straight woman with food and body image issues who comes to our Gay Men's AA issues. She sits and darns socks during the meeting, and lives in a rent control apartment, on her Disability check. These folks add local color to the gayborhood and must be preserved.

Whether its the Northeast, CA, IL, people are running away in droves to lower cost, lower tax, better weather, less crowded states.

Mostly the Mountain states, the SW & the SE.

Theres a reason why Texas & Florida have grown so much in the last 20 yrs.

You save a ton of money, then go to NYC for a week, on vacation.

[quote]I don't know where in LA you were because all I see are doughy Mid Western types pushing strollers and walking around with their pasty doughy visiting familie

Where are YOU? There is a lot to criticize in LA, but lack of diversity is not among them. The city is largely Latino. There are numerous ethnic neighborhoods throughout the city. There are transplants from all over the world here. I think that you are just stirring shit. Give me a break.

I watched the first season of The Marvelous Mrs Maisel, and it made me really miss the NYC of yore. Although the show was set in the late 50's and before I was born, it captured the time when everything was possible, you met interesting people trying to do somethign different, and families could afford decent sized apartments. I started visiting NYC from Boston when I was a young teen, and crashed on my cousin's sofa on the UWS. I finally moved there after grad school, and loved it, but had to leave it to pursue a creative field that didn't pay much, and I could not afford to try it and continue to live in NYC.

And that, along with the internet, I think is what has destroyed NYC. The artists and the freaks who contributed to the vibe of the city simply can't afford to live there, and, what with being able to get any art supply they want online, they no longer need to live in the city. I used to have to make special trips to the city to get art supplies, but now i can get anythign I need online. Not having that creative class will ruin a city. You might not have noticed it was there, but it adds a vibrancy and an oddness that makes a city great.

R90 And it can't be faked, it's developed organically, lots of "moving pieces' coming together at once.

If anyone can handle the below footage (it's done in heavy shaky cam and is a bit muddy), there's this great video on YouTube of NYC in 1968. It's a slowed down version of a clip from a Hollis Frampton movie in which he filmed the streets of NYC as he walked from the Brooklyn Bridge via Broadway to Central Park. If you pause the video, you can see how NYC was just nothing but indie shops and local chains--cafeterias, coffee shops, hardware, plastics, clothing, etc.

Also, you'll see a lot of lofts for rent. This was the period in NYC that one of my art professors was telling my class about in the 90s. She said around this time, artists like her were snagging lofts at an absolute steal.

Further to r92, there are a ton of movies set in 1960s-90s NYC, that show what that video describes.

The Out of Towners, After Hours, Desperately Seeking Susan, Wolfen, Taxi Driver...

What’s to be done? Like the internet - it’s the way of the world now. As an eldergay, I feel like my fight was for gay rights - and we won that. Not sure I have the desire to start a new fight against extreme hyper capitalism. I think the Bernie crowd of youngsters may be able to accomplish something to add a social safety net - but now we’re competing against China Russia and places where they have never had - and therefore don’t have social pressure - to pay for social safety net. Race to the bottom worldwide. I’ll live in my little rent stabilized apt until I die in 20 years. And pray that things don’t get worse.

Goddamit they're hoarding culture!

I'll have to query Nan of what she thinks of all this, over a free cup of AA coffee and a sprinkled donut or two.

R95 Hoarding resources, cupcake.

R96 That special rent controlled, aged city world where the pre-fab herringbone floors have stayed the same since 1972. It's like a rooms in a living museum.

The thing is, when NYC was allegedly "great" at least in recent memory (1970s), it really wasn't so great. Maybe in the 1900-1950s it was closer. Lots of the observations and causes stated are true though, but low crime and greedy landlords alone could cause this alone.

NYCRIP

Regarding Jeremiah's Vanishing New York blog, I'm well aware of it.

The problem with it (if you could call it that) is that he's lamenting the death of NYC out of sentimentality. That's all well and good and everything, but there's more to the issue of gentrification than, "Aww, that cool iconic bookstore on Bleecker is going," or "Aww, not the awesome record shop with the cool neon signage that's been around since 1932." Yes, it's sad these interesting, cool, quirky places are going but the problem of gentrification cuts so much deeper than nostalgia and sentimentality.

Another issue I have is that he's a transplant, and his perspective on gentrification is very different from that of a native. While for him it's all about dabbing his eyes because a local haunt is disappearing, from the natives' perspective, the experience is rawer because they're at ground zero of gentrification. To them, it's not about, "Aw, this cool local haunt is going," but, "Oh, no. Where am I going to buy my groceries now?" or "Where am I going to get some roti, like back home?" or "Where am I gonna launder my clothes now?" There are too many transplants like him who are being given a voice for anti-gentrification and not enough of a voice from the people who've lived here their entire lives. There needs to be an alternative voice, IMO.

Nepotism and hoarding are Jewish values.

OMG that EPISTLE was epic and took hours to read.

But beautiful.

Isn't the same thing happening to London?

[Quote]"Where am I going to get some roti, like back home?"

Another transplant problem.

Asshole Millennials being supported by their parents, absolutely everywhere.

And you know that how, R105? I thought DL complains that they are all broke. Now they’re the ones paying exorbitant rents, too? Seems some of you can’t even make up your minds about what to complain about anymore.

Austin is cool if you're a straight slacker.

But the city looks bombed-out and dilapidated from the civil war or something and there's not much fitness culture and hot people.

OMFG r106 do you even live in NY?

great article. bloombergs reign has much to do with this.

There are dozens and dozens of empty storefronts all throughout the five boroughs of new york city.

I'd like to know why this isnt alarming in 2018 when it was proof of a DECAYED and FAILING city in the 1970s.

Guiliani started this in the 90s, and then Bloomberg really got the ball rolling.

No mention of South Street Seaport’s massive renovation. When the fuck will that reopen?

I know you've heard it before, but... It only costs me about $1k flight + hotel to visit NYC for a few days. I can do that as well as travel to other places in the world, eat healthful fresh produce every day, support local everything, enjoy my commute, pay my mortgage, and save for retirement.

I sound old. Oh well. You're always welcome, you know!

We'll always have Paris! Ah, zut... Cairo, the ancient metrop...... OK I give up.

Not just NY. The wealthy always get to go where they want. Right now, they want central cities again. When they fled to the suburbs, that left the city for a lot of different groups, including of course, a certain swath of the wealthy, but also a lot of other groups. I've been someone who gentrified a neighborhood, and I've been forced out of a location because of gentrification. While shenanigans go on in the context of gentrification, like illegal evictions, the fact is that gentrification isn't illegal. So, if the entirety of NYC is to be gentrified and home to the upper middle class and above, I don't know what can be done, or if anything should be done. Affordable housing makes only a small dent if the market doesn't allow for people without subsidies and lower income to live in the city.

Sounds dreamy R9. There's no way some hilljack of any creed would come out of such a neighborhood. Even if it was poor you'd still be a worldly sophisticate.

Maybe, just maybe the younger generations coming up regardless of race or religion have just fused together as true Americans. This is probably the case. Has been like this in Montreal for decades.

But isn't the general opinion now in America that diversity sucks?

You walk by these condo buildings at night and most of the apartments are dark, because they're investment properties i.e. places for shady millionaires to park their ill-gotten money. It's depressing as hell.

Fran Lebowitz suggested that the NYC homeless problem could be solved by letting all the homeless people live in the empty condos of rich people, because they're already paid for and the rich people aren't living in them anyway.

gentrification isnt a bad thing, neighborhoods change all the time as people move in and others leave.

it's been like this always and has been for a long time.

what does not change is that people need a place to live.

a 3500 dollar monthly rent ( 40, 000 dollar per year) rent is not affordable,this the asking rate for rents in shit holes very much removed from the center of new york city ( manhattan).

I moved into a shitty apartment in the bronx in 2001 that rented for 700 dollars.

We're not talking ancient history or a grand neighborhood, it was where i could afford to live on my shtty 30, 00 dollar per year salary- that same place rents for 1400 dollar per month or more.

a 700 dollar rent is an affordable rent. 1400, 1600, 1800, 2100 is not affordable unless you earn a premium salary.

the starting line keeps being pushed forward, new yorkers have been told TO MOVE! you're not entitled to live in the neighborhood of your choice just because youve lived here all your life.

but landlords are not told to lower their rents even in a softer market.

This is a critical missing piece of the puzzle: Michael Bloomberg ( 2002- 2015)

newyorkers voted for term limits TWICE. Bloomberg with the aid of the city council reelected himself as mayor for a third illegals term

in that time, rents quadrupled. units were removed from rent stabilization, not just rent control.

a west village hospital which served nyers during the aids crisis and BOTH wwc terrorist attacks was converted into luxury condos. the domino sugar factory was closred and converted into luxury housing. nyers need access to medical care and well paying jobs. we dont need more luxury housing built in an over-saturated market.

new yorkers paid higher taxes for everything including a nearly 10 percent sales tax on clothing for decades time a deliberate divestment was made from all the services new yorkers require including the educational system while an increase of funding was made to the infrastructure of the suburbs of new york.

this is grounds for a lawsuit.

It couldn't last forever...the city has priced itself out of existence. The cost of living there is ridiculous.

R117, only by Old racists. Thankfully they're all dying off. Oh and middle aged poor people regardless of race or background. The media is claiming this to gain hits and readership. Don't believe that hype. The US population is well past that.

Next great American city? It’s gonna be in China.

R117, no, diversity is embraced otherwise people would be rejecting themselves. Thank affordable DNA tests.

Fran Leibowitz is a dumbkopf.

When I was younger my father used to talk about how NYC had gone downhill in the 1960s and never recovered.

He also told me that his father told him that NYC had gone downhill in the 1930s and never recovered.

I am sure his father told him that NYC had gone downhill in the 1910s and never recovered.

It's not about NY. It's about older generations not liking their successors.

Shut up uneducated R122. The East has Tokyo. The next great American city will be most American cities.

R119, St. Vincent's Hospital wasn't converted into condos. It became insolvent for a lot of reasons, partly because of it's mission, to care for the poor. It closed it's doors, it was torn down and condos were built on the site. It really had some history.

We wuv Wew Work. Pay cash.

Better a has been than a never was.

You'd think that the creative, diverse spaces NYC was known for would simply move to a second tier of cities in light of the price-out of many of the types of people that made it so interesting and vibrant. It's partially happened, but I can't ever see the NYC of the 80s or 90s reconstituting elsewhere - mainly because of information technology. Now, an "artists enclave" can exist over multiple cities. No, it's not the same as everyone living in one city, but it's still a thing. A small community of artists can exist in multiple cities of various sizes; they interact locally with each other, and interact on a bigger scale with other other artists on the the internet.

R130. I used to live in Manhattan, and had a high-paying corporate job. I moved when I decided to become an artist, because I could not afford to live there as I was establishing a career as a painter. I'm now supporting myself as an artist, but, oh, how I would love to be back in NYC, because of the access to the galleries and museums and other artists, and the energy the city has. I can't possibly afford to live there now -- art does support me, but at a subsistence level -- which is frustrating, because I know I could sell more paintings if I were there. So, yes, even though I can talk to other artists on facebook and get the materials I need online, there really is nothing like being in the same city as your market. I wish I could move back.

^ where did u move to? U can live cheap an hour from manhattan no prob

Can we stop calling people "creatives"? It's banal--it sounds like a term David Brooks coined to sell a new book.

[quote] I wish I could move back.

No, you don't. Pratt alum here. There is no artistic vibe, none of that "energy" you're talking about in NYC anymore. It died years ago. Trust me. The days of Warhol, Basquiat, Haring and Mapplethorpe are dead. If you come back here expecting that same vibe that was there in the 60s-90s, you're going to be severely disappointed.

[Quote]There is no artistic vibe, none of that "energy" you're talking about in NYC anymore.

Out of curiosity, r134, where's today's artistic vibe? Does one have to leave the country now for it?

R135, Chicago for rap, don't know if Montreal is still good for rock like in the 2000s.

[Quote]No, you don't. Pratt alum here. There is no artistic vibe, none of that "energy" you're talking about in NYC anymore. It died years ago. Trust me. The days of Warhol, Basquiat, Haring and Mapplethorpe are dead. If you come back here expecting that same vibe that was there in the 60s-90s, you're going to be severely disappointed.

Was that vibe even still there in the '90s? It seems like people are pining after something that was over eons ago.

R135, to tell you the truth, I don't know where you can find it today. The problem is that gentrification is happening in every major city that has a thriving cultural scene, not just in the United States but around the world. (See link) The reason why is that, cruelly, burgeoning art scenes are now one of the catalysts of gentrification. The developers don't see artists moving in. They go, "Cool! White hipsters just made this area trendy! Time to tear everything down and build luxury developments!"

Complicating matters is that it seems as if younger artists are just choosing to have their scenes online. (Deviant Art, forums, social media, etc.) It's not like back in the day when people met up at various places (cafes, warehouses, lofts, etc).

So I dunno.

[quote]Was that vibe even still there in the '90s? It seems like people are pining after something that was over eons ago.

Are you even in the position to ask me that question?

I have no idea what you mean.

R135 Atlanta has an interesting underground art scene. Although not as dense as NYC, the affordable rent and abundance of abandoned buildings leads to a lot of opportunities for space for an artist, or collective. In addition, the police are a bit of a joke, and as long as you have one white friend to talk them down you're fine.

Any place that's high density becomes expensive and the "creatives" get priced out and start bitching about it. Maybe they need to start thinking out of the box and move somewhere low density and unpopular like Iowa and start an arts scene that won't get spoiled. But that would mean they'd have to save up money for things like a car.

NY is over

[quote]I have no idea what you mean.

You asked me that question from a position of skepticism. Were you even part of the NYC art scene in the 1990s? If not, why do you feel you're in a position to question whether there was a vibe or not?

Mighty full of ourselves aren't we?

Remember video stores on every corner? RKO, champagne video, video vroom...

I had a view of the East River and the Chrysler building from my apartment. By the time I left, I had neither. Bloomberg’s disgusting piece of shit green glass building blocked the view of the Chrysler building not just from my apartment, but from much of the Upper East Side.

Remember Kim's Video? I and everybody I knew went there in the pre-Youtube etc. days because they had absolutely everything.

Thanks, r136, r138, and r141. I'm also r14, who wrote that maybe the smaller rust-belt cities will develop creative art scenes, becoming cultural hubs for artists who would've otherwise gone to New York in the old days. It's just disturbing to see how commercialized and uniform the large cities have become. I even noticed that in Paris some ten years ago. PARIS, the infamous city of struggling artists from all over. Well, that Paris is apparently dead. I don't know what the future holds for you guys. It gives me a sick feeling to my stomach to even imagine.

R135 - It's 2018 collaboration and communities, artistic or otherwise, are not limited by geography.

It's pretty clear across the country towns and cities are being designed to separate the classes.

That's right R148. And it doesn't have to be somewhere freezing cold like Iowa. They can do it down south. Way down in Muscle Shoals Alabama.

Alabama! MARY!

The poster who said that NYC landlords aren't hoarding apartments is WRONG. There are tens of thousands of apartments being held off the market. It's called "warehousing."

A certain amount of gentrification is normal for a city, but up until the 1990s it was mostly a normal organic process. However,what slowly started under mayor Ed Koch, and later under Giuliani and Bloomberg, major changes were made to zoning and pet projects that greatly accelerated the gentrification process at a unparalleled speed. These changes not only allowed major new construction where it was not possible before, but also the type of construction that drastically changed neighborhoods almost overnight. Residents and businesses that survived for decades were suddenly pushed out due to exorbitant rent spikes, by underhanded and illegal tactics that pushed out rent controlled tenants, and even skyrocketing property taxes on 1-3 family house owners. Hyper-gentrification is term used by Jeremiah Moss in his critically acclaimed book, Vanishing New York: How a Great City Lost Its Soul. It's a great read and worth your time.

I thought Santa Fe NM was an artistic city. And Sedona. AZ

R132. R131 here. I moved to Nashville, which I hate. When I moved here, it was very affordable, but it is becoming much less so. Wall Street Journal, in fact, had an article just yesterday about how Nashville is becoming more and more expensive. I love my loft. It's 1000sf, has 25' ceilings. It's perfect for me. I could not find a similar space elsewhere. Although a gallery here shows my work, I do not sell anything here. There are a few collectors here who buy my paintings, but most of what I sell is online. I also have a gallery in Charleston, and they sell a decent amount, but not as much as I sell online. I'm casting about for a new city to move to, but can not find one that satisfies all the requirements. I grew up in Boston, but I also can't move back there because it is crazy expensive . I have a gallery in Atlanta that sells my paintings -- a really nice one! -- and I went to check out the city last month, thinking maybe I could move there. Rents are cheap, but I didn't care for the vibe of Atlanta. It seemed dull and without culture or an edge. I'm thinking about Charleston, but it might be conservative and too Christian for me. (I'm a liberal atheist.) So...if there's another city that has a vibrant professional art scene , I don't know it.

[Quote]The poster who said that NYC landlords aren't hoarding apartments is WRONG. There are tens of thousands of apartments being held off the market. It's called "warehousing."

Except that's not what the poster said. They were responding to this statment by OP:

"Like all things of value, the elite are hoarding the great cities for themselves and all others who wish to be a part of those cities have to deal with scarcity."

R155 again...Santa Fe might have a vibrant art scene, but it is ODD. The artists there, as well as most people who live there, strike me as being a little self-centered and narcissistic. Plus, most of the art that is show there is southwestern, and I don't paint that.

I thought it was accepted wisdom that LA is where it’s at for the US art scene

If someone's holding apartments off the market there's probably a good reason. Doesn't NYC have a bunch of wack laws that make it near impossible to get rid of a bad tenant? That's what happened in SF.

"Wack?" I love that you used that word.

Santa Fe does have an impresive art scene.

I heard that Santa Fe is expensive, though.

Right. They need someplace cheap where they can get around on a fixie bike.

New York was over after quaaludes were banned and the tubs closed.

R158 -- LA does seem to be the center of the art scene, but it is also expensive if you want a decent place. Downtown would be fantastic, but from what I've heard, the homeless create a problem. I'm not sure I could deal with that. Plus, I would love to live in a city that is at least somewhat walkable.

This is all happening because the West & Western Civilization is being invaded, not by the Visigoths but by 3rd world people who do not care about Western Civ. And the wealthy want it to happen because they do not want a white working class - that is too dangerous for them.

R155

Dallas, Austin or Houston. Big populations, lots of money, affordable.

Asheville, NC?

South Florida?

[quote]And the wealthy want it to happen because they do not want a white working class - that is too dangerous for them.

And they also don't want a well educated,informed populace with good critical thinking skills. Race to the bottom, LCD culture with LOTS of tribalism and in-fighting works best for globalist elites.

I've been reading for years that in San Francisco it's even worse. S.F. doesn't generate much wealth. All the wealth emanates from Silicon Valley. These SV brats are buying up shacks in SF for $1 million. Almost all of San Francisco is now gentrified.

R155 why do you hate it?

[quote]Mighty full of ourselves aren't we?

The only person who is full of themselves is the poster wants to question what a city was like during a certain period, when he clearly isn't from there or wasn't there to experience it.

BTW, why do I get the sense you're Canadian? I've noticed that more and more that some of the more arrogant posters who like to contradict Americans about what's going on in their neck of the woods tend to be Canadian (like the Canuck in R116 babbling about Montreal). Not meaning to derail this thread, but it's becoming so prevalent recently, I had to pass comment on it. If you're not from here, mind your own business. That goes for any other foreigner or flyover stater who thinks he's got a "pulse" on NYC because he visits every few years. This issue doesn't affect you in any way, shape or form.

I spent my childhood in Hollywood, riding around LA on buses all alone from age seven, on. I am curious about my NYC contemporaries, doing the same on buses and the subway, and what their freedom was like before we were stopped by the Manson Family (although they didn't bother children) and the NYC kids were stopped by muggings and such.

I live in downtown LA, and our loft building has been bought by a Vancouver-based development company who want to tear down the whole block and build boutique hotels.

R170. R155 here. I don't like Nashville for many reasons. Primarily, though, it's because it is too conservative and too christian for me. I'm a very liberal atheist. I can not tell you how many times a cashier or salesperson or whoever, instead of saying goodbye, say "have a blessed day." I know it's a little thing, but it annoys the fuck out of me. I hate that I can walk through Centennial Park, and see people writing Bible verses in chalk on the ground. I hate that maybe the third question someone asks when you meet them is "where do go to church." I hate that the CMA thought it was ok to nominate Mike Huckabee to the board, despite his history of intolerance. I hate that 75% of TN voted for Trump. I hate that buildings are going up EVERYWHERE, prices are increasing, and traffic can sometimes be as bad as midtown NYC. (I used to live on the UWS, and I grew up in Boston proper, so I know from traffic.) I hate that all these new restaurants are opening, which is great, but they are all clones of each other, they are more concerned with style over substance, and, as a vegetarian, I hate that almost every single dish in every single restaurant has bacon or pork. I live a few blocks from downtown, and I hate that I'm always sharing the road with those pedal taverns, with the drunk bridesmaid parties hanging off of them, yelling and whooping like they'e the only ones who have ever had a hen party. I hate that my neighborhood, which used to be a low to mid income black neighborhood is being converted in the next "it" area, and they're tearing down public housing and putting in expensive apartments. (I am complicit in this, because I am white, but I also live in a funky old factory that's been converted to lofts, and almost everyone in the building is a creative; artists, photographers, luthiers, etc.) I hate it because there just ins't any real soul to the city anymore. It has become generic. I could go on, but that is just off the top of my head. I used to tolerate it because it was cheap and convenient. Now it is neither. I know I see the changes because I live so close to downtown, but, if I were to move farther out, I would be surrounded by even more conservative rednecks, and I am not someone who likes to be surrounded by nature.

An article from last year, about what's happened to Bleecker Street.

It seems like there is no fighting it as R114 pointed out. I’ve seen it play out for 30 years - the past 15 at warp speed and intensity. And agree it’s every city - London and Paris seems to be as soulless as NYC. LA does seem like the next place. Still can find somewhat affordable space in sketchy areas. And downtowns revival created a true urban intensity and vibrancy to LA. I honestly can’t think of another city I would move to.

The vacant storefront thing is strange tho. The number of closed storefronts is so extreme now that it seems like there has to be some supply/demand adjustment - there are just sooo many empty. And for YEARS. I don’t understand why commercial rents aren’t coming down.

R176 Cant recall the details, but I think theres some NY State or NYC law that actually gives a generous tax benefit to landlords of unoccupied properties.

Also not sure if its applied only to commercial RE, residential or both.

It apparently makes it worthwhile to keep them vacant if they cant get the desired amount of rent.

Talk about short circuiting the basic premise of supply & demand...

[quote]And agree it’s every city - London and Paris seems to be as soulless as NYC.

I wouldn't say that about London.

It's lost some of its laid back gentleness that was its charm versus New York. It's more aggressive now and crowded and expensive - but not soulless.

But New York was so strangely old fashioned and quriky for so long. This is what used to surprise new arrivals who expected just skyscrapers and a slick American city in general...which it seems it has finally become.

I lived off Madison Ave (East 60s & 70s) in the early 80s and that was ruined all the way back then, when it was overrun very quickly by over-priced Euro boutiques and rich Euro trash. All the locals shaking their heads whistfully. Yes, even the most expensive parts of the upper east side used to be rather homey and quirky and old-fashioned pre-1980s.

In other words, all this began years ago.

What I am getting from other posters is that this is not confined to NYC. Paris, London, LA and smaller cities such as Nashville are changing and losing what made them attractive. Perhaps this is the natural evolution of urban areas, the question I have is what's next?

R179. I think some people -- most people ? -- will just accept it and continue with their lives. I think a smaller group will move to places that still maintain a degree of quirk -- Asheville, Charlotte, et al -- but those cities, too, will ultimately become too homogenized. It is a shame that almost every area is losing their identity, and everything is becoming too similar.

I think one of the many major factors on the "soulless city center" buildup in NYC, other big American cities, even London & Sydney, is reverse migration.

People used to want to live in the burbs & commute in to work. Now the much stronger trend is to live "downtown" & minimize the hassle, time & expense of commuting, either by car or mass transit.

Ive also seen evidence of this trend taking off in Latin Americas bigger cities.. Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, Bogota, Panama City & Mexico City.

[quote][R179]. I think some people -- most people ? -- will just accept it and continue with their lives. I think a smaller group will move to places that still maintain a degree of quirk -- Asheville, Charlotte, et al -- but those cities, too, will ultimately become too homogenized. It is a shame that almost every area is losing their identity, and everything is becoming too similar.

Gurl, soon no one will remember how it all once was anyway.

The young people in London for example, seem to think it's FANTASTIC how it is now.

[Quote]I can not tell you how many times a cashier or salesperson or whoever, instead of saying goodbye, say "have a blessed day." I know it's a little thing, but it annoys the fuck out of me.

[Quote]I also live in a funky old factory that's been converted to lofts, and almost everyone in the building is a creative; artists, photographers, luthiers, etc.)

R155, r174 How do you and those like you withstand living in such a conservative place? Do you guys hang out together, socializing in another sphere apart from theirs? Are any of them also considering leaving Nashville? If any left, where did they go? I'm fascinated by gays and free-minded people who chose to live in religiously conservative areas, especially those in The South.

Manhattan is becoming a fortress of wealth. 432 Park and other like atrocities on 57th St are the keeps of the castle.

R184-- Downtown Nashville used to be funky and where all the "cool kids" hung out. It was gritty, it was derelict, and it was...awesome! When the bridal parties started to show up, all the empty storefronts quickly filled with theme bars and restaurants, and all the grit disappeared, and no one with any real sense goes there any more. It is like Bourbon Street on steroids. How do others deal with it? One of my neighbors is a famous chef, and he got married and moved to an inner city suburb. He's somewhat feted, and a bit of a magnet for the oddballs and the hipsters, so he's cushioned. The person in the loft next to me is on the road with a very very very famous singer, so he can live anywhere, and hate what Nashville has become, so moved to California. I think, too, that most people who move here are from the south, and church and conservative values are instilled deep within them, so they don't bristle against them quite as much liberal atheists, of which there aren't that many down here. Many also work for larger companies, so they just learn to keep their mouths shut. I used to do that, until I just got too frustrated and tired of it, and now I am a little more outspoken about my beliefs, but I lost a significant number of friends because of it. The funny thing about the conservative christians in places like Nashville, is that they seem to believe that they have the last word on...everything, and most people let them. It is infuriating. I would move in a minute if I could afford to, but I do not have the money to move.

Chicago still has grit left, even on the northside. The problem is, Chicago has never attracted musicians or artists the way LA or NYC have.

r77 is exactly right about hiring.

It’s almost like the death of social life. The amount of time people spend on social media/internet has replaced IRL social interaction and related spaces. The fact that the public spaces are dying reflects people’s preference to live online. In NYC, I make an effort to go out. But if I’m online all day, there is less reason to live in NYC. Rents and prices are being driven by the 5%- and their kids. Real people making regular salaries can just live online and pay less to live in Atlanta, Dallas, Columbus. As I get older, that option is more appealing (though likely Florida)

R178, I fell in love with London when I started going there in 1986 but I’ve fallen out of love with it because it’s way too much like NYC now-overcrowded, expensive and in your face. And almost everything is open on weekends now and I might miss that most of all. It FELT like a weekend in London. Not anymore. At least it still does in cities like Amsterdam.

Love of phones comes from diversity fatigue.

Agree - Amsterdam is a city that has maintained some of its uniqueness - even with increasing tourism. Maybe it’s the smaller size or the preservation required for the canals and houses, but it always feels like a getaway from NYC - unlike London or Paris. Only major city that keeps me coming back.

Isn’t Missoula Montana trying to be all artsy and creative?

R192, it's probably because cities in continental Europe are more connected with other continental European cities. London has always been well connected to the US and Europe, with the English complaining that since the Thatcher days, it has drifted more towards America. This probably has impacted the city's feel as well.

[quote]one of my art professors was telling my class about in the 90s. She said around this time, artists like her were snagging lofts at an absolute steal.

Actually, that was going on in the 70s and 80s, by the 90s, Soho had started to gentrify. Soho had lots of beautiful loft space because many of the buildings had been old factories. you walk down Broadway from around 4th street to Canal Street and there are all those great buildings that were once clothing factories. Also, the Meatpacking District was great for awhile because all of those buildings were warehouses and it was nice because there weren't a lot of people around. Then hyper-capitalism showed up and all those beautiful Soho and Meatpacking buildings became high end retail stores, including my beloved Canal Jeans which went out of business.

[quote]Then hyper-capitalism showed up and all those beautiful Soho and Meatpacking buildings became high end retail stores, including my beloved Canal Jeans which went out of business.

Remember the free buttons at the cash register? I tried so hard to save them for posterity but for some reason, I'd keep losing them. Canal Jean Co. eventually moved to a location near Brooklyn College and then closed several years later. I guess because it couldn't compete with the huge Target across the street at Flatbush junction. I miss that and all the other places that used to be out on Broadway so much, including Unique's. Can you imagine a place like that today where you can walk into a huge space, find leather jackets in one section and floppy hats in the next?

r174/186, I'm trying to wrap my head around how you ended up in Nashville. I lived in Nashville for most of the 80s. It has always had a conservative Christian vibe. It's not going to change. I left because I got tired of how stupid people are there. I grew up going to church so the Jesus Saves people never bothered me. However, stupid people who don't pay attention really bug me.

When I make return trips to Nashville, I really have to go slow with these people. The last time I was there, I went to breakfast at Waffle House. My bill came to nine dollars and some change. I handed the young girl behind the register $20. She gave me some coins and closed the register. I said, "I gave you a twenty." She proceeded to argue with me for awhile and then when I started making a scene, she opened the drawer and gave me my ten. Now I know this scenario can happen anywhere, but it seems like it happens more in the South. So now I've started being vocal and saying, "Here's TWENTY dollars." But there really are some idiots in the South and you have to think for both them and you.

r196, I still have my Canal Jeans button. And I still have a jean jacket I bought there in 1992. I also have a button from Unique Clothing Warehouse. God, Unique was a delicious mess. In the 80s, I'm surprised they were never closed down. You would walk in the door and there were so many racks of clothing that you could barely squeeze between the racks. God help that place if a fire ever broke out because there's no way you could get out if you were at the back of the store.

And I often think fondly of Canal Jeans. Shoes and vintage in the basement. Miles and miles of jeans on the top floor. Street level was jackets and some more jeans. Outside they had baskets of stuff they were trying to unload, cheap tshirts, friendship bracelets and socks. I used to go there once a week just to walk around the store. I thought it would never end.

Also, I remember that Unique had some goth clothing long before it became a "thing". In the back of the store they had racks and racks of long black coats. I remember picking one up and thinking, "How do you get into this thing." It didn't seem to have an opening! Ha!!

[quote]Also, I remember that Unique had some goth clothing long before it became a "thing".

Same thing with the floppy hats. You could've bought one before the Kartrashians and other trashionistas started wearing them. That's what was so awesome about NYC back in the day. You were always at the forefront of a phenomenon before it happened.

[quote]An article from last year, about what's happened to Bleecker Street.

Even the rich stores can't afford it anymore. Snooty Maison Kayser closed on the corner of Bleecker & Christopher, which is justice because that used to be a cool Army/Navy store.

Wtf is up with the bizarre queen who thinks people can only ask questions about places where they live (and so probably already know the answer)?

Why is anyone talking about Nashville on this thread?

A collage.

West Village 1988.

par moi.

I used to love B Dalton.

Banana Republic....'86

AZUMA

Lookin' down 8th Street in the 80s

You can thank Russian oligarchs and their money laundering.

R205, I knew someone who worked at that location. He scored me a damaged copy of Silence of the Lambs and Interview with the Vampire (they were missing their covers).

That B. Dalton's was also a few doors down from a housewares store where a huge crowd of people would stand outside the display trying to figure out Magic Eye puzzles, LOL.

The tax break for lost rents has to be eliminated.

R201 - agree Maison Kayser closing on Christopher St shocked me. It was only there for like a year it seems. Thought that was one store who would pay the rent- but even THAT closed. Just when I started liking their sandwiches. Then the restaurant at 10th and Hudson closed this week too. And Manatus closed like 5 YEARS ago - and it is still vacant! And half of Christopher between Bleecker and Hudson is now vacant. The West Village has been decimated! Everything that is useful or practical for someone living here is gone - it’s crazy. I love the west village- but especially last few years, seems EVERYTHING is shutting down. Weird to me that the gay bars are the few businesses that aren’t closing - not sure how they survive. Fingers crossed.

[quote]I used to love B Dalton.

That turned into a Barnes & Noble. It has been closed for YEARS!! They don't know what to do with it. They won't even use it for a pop-up shop location.

R212, I wonder if La Bonbonnierre is ever in danger of closing. If it was there would be rioting.

[quote]Weird to me that the gay bars are the few businesses that aren’t closing

Several gay bars have closed. Years ago, Uncle Charlies. Boots & Saddle has closed. Nanny's closed. There are others which I can't remember at the moment.

I also wonder how long the Sushi Samba building on 7th Ave will stay vacant. In the 90s, that was a Fuddruckers! Then an independent restaurant before it became SS.

But one thing will always remain: the Clairoyant on the corner of Bleecker and 7th Avenue. Even though it rarely has any customers, it will always remain.

On these NY nostalgia threads on DL and on Facebook I'm always the only olde tyme Upper Eastsider.

When Maria dies or retires, I bet La Bonbonierre closes. If it lasts that long. Like the Neighborhood Office on Bleecker - she decided to retire so a useful multi-service vibrant center for the neighborhood is gone. No one will pay that rent for a low margin business anymore.

Back to downtown. Sadly too late for the 1978 thread so I'll post it here.

NYC used to be so dirty and grimy and crumbling, but that's what I loved about it. I prefer that to a high-rise version of Nancy Meyers interior porn.

R219's preferred NYC.

1981.

Guuuurl!

1966

Times Square, 1989.

96th & Lexington - early 80s

That's really good, and exactly what's happened here. I am lucky. I bought my apartment in 1987 with my then-husband. It's in Brooklyn, in Windsor Terrace, across from the park, and I now own it. We got to buy because we were renting a tenement on the UES (bathtub in kitchen) and his dad was teaching in L.A. with an empty apartment on the UES. I said, what if we lived (free) at your dad's while he's in L.A. and saved up for a deposit on an apartment? We did. After nearly a year we started looking, and we ended up buying the least expensive, but best apartment in our budget (it is configued like a normal space). There was nothing in this neighborhood. Farrell's bar and a bank. A couple of delis. The park was hardly used. Too dangerous and unkempt. The end. Totally transformed now.

I own it now, and the mortgage is paid. The prices of these apartments have skyrocketed, and there's no doorman, but it's across the street from Prospect Park, and near a very desirable grade school. If I didn't live here, I'd be long out of the city. I used to get a thrill from certain places in Manhattan - parts of the UES, Grand Central, Rockefeller Center. They are all repellent now. I don't even know what interests the tourists. The city is so damned generic. I watch "The Marvellous Mrs. Maisel" to get a feel for how it used to be, and it really wasn't as long ago as the 1950s. Maybe the 1990s.

New York City 1968. Clips from Andy Warhol's Flesh directed by Paul Morrissey starring Joe Dallesandro. Great images of the city (and Little Joe) of 50 years ago.

good story R224 . You were really on the edge when you moved out there. Glad you are still there. Interesting to hear an older person say they would not live here. I’m keeping my apartment just so I can grow old in NYC - but lately, I’m wondering if it’s keeping me stuck in an unfun city that is losing what I like about it every day.

I can remember overhearing a couple of old time NYers how much they admired (with some reluctance) what the place had become around 2003-2004 when the city had reached a kind of equilibrium between being a great safe place and and still an interesting place. It was hard for them to dislike the fact long dead parts of the city had become activated with galleries and life again, but it came with a weariness because they knew it woudn't last forever.

R182 This is the vibe I was getting in London before the tipping point of about 4 or 5 years ago.

Remember when they attacked that place in London that sold expensive imported American cereal?

[quote]Cereal Killer Cafe attack: The anti-gentrification thugs got the wrong target

Imagine having these angry white folk coming for you - all angry about gentrification.

....

For the people posting pics of Ray's Pizza, thank you. Those photos were shot at a time when we had genuine NYC-style pizza (flat, crispy crust and heaps of mozzarella that used to slide off onto your paper plate because it was piled so high). Not this watered down crap.

R227. Interesting you mention 2003-4 as the peak. I might agree. Though the 90s were edgier, less uptight, and more fun with more nightclubs and dancing (pre-bottle service), in 2003, it still had vitality and the old time places were still untouched. It was warp speed closures and chains after that. My peak would be 2000 when everything had a sheen and there was new safety and money but before the country went crazy after 9/11 and real estate prices skyrocketed.

R227/R232, many former New Yorkers discussing how they left the city after 9/11 and how it just wasn't the same. They were saying walking through Times Square was a nightmare and they couldn't imagine ever wanting to move back.

Hard to know what’s due to my age and romanticizing younger days vs a subjective assessment of the changes. But 95-03 was a good period of some changes without wholesale elimination of neighborhood character.

High end stores squeezed neighborhood stores out of tne West Village and now those high end stores cant afford the rent neither so, whats gonna happen with those spaces, will they be converted into residential apartments?

It's been mentioned a couple times -- the landlords can get a tax deduction for the amount of lost rent for a vacant storefront. So, they can hold out for a long time for a tenant that can pay a lot. Some, of course, might cave sooner than others, but until that tax break is eliminated, true supply and demand won't dictate rental prices and how quickly the store fronts are occupied.

Really curious what happens to the vacant stores. Economics would dictate that asking prices come down. But I think many of these landlords are raking in more money than they ever expected - so sitting on space for a few years isn’t going to bankrupt them and doesn’t decrease the “theoretical” market value of their building for financing purposes. But at some point, prices have to drop -retail is dying and those stores generally are zoned commercial so can’t be residential.

And the tax break only gives them 25-30% of what they could get from rent - so that alone can’t justify ignoring rent forever. Maybe it’s like the million dollar condos sitting vacant - these landlords have so much money, logic and normal economics don’t matter.

American cities were always over-zoned commercial and with the internet, you will be seeing more and more vacant stores.

Yeah, retail is changing, obviously. There will still be stores for goods you can get on the internet, but much less. That said, neighborhoods still crave grocery stores and stores for basic goods (detergent, toiletries, etc.), cafes, bars, restaurants. Specialty stores can be a tough sell - has to be in the right place.

Life was better before the internet.

I think there's a lot of positives to the internet, but I generally agree, R240. But, that's sort of a "get off my lawn" sentiment, even though I'm only 45. Since I had a fulfilling, perfectly acceptable life before the internet, I can take or leave it. People for whom the internet made things better, or people who don't know anything else probably feel differently.

I lived there from the mid 80s (intermittently) then right through the 90s and finally left in 2005. It had begun to resemble a mall in Jersey City. The edge was gone, and you knew the game was up when you met frat boys from Long Island and their gills in the Meatpacking District at 4am. A friend has said it's unrecognisable from the place I loved, and he bemoans the massive building on Hudson Yards which is casting massive shadows over Central Park.

9/11 actually increased tourism to NY exponentially (especially from flyover states) and that’s part of what’s made so much of the city unbearable since theb.

Maybe NYers will laugh at this question, but is there anything edgier, a little more gritty, and cheaper in NJ? I've always heard people bemoan NJ, but it's right there with easy access to the city if you still want to go for the museums, shows, events. Or is it hopelessly not cool?

R242 It is the tall, needle luxury condos on W. 57th St called "Billionaires Row" that cast the shadows on Central Park not Hudson Yards. Hudson Yards is an ugly development down by the Javitts Center. It will probably be a ghost town when the big crash comes at the end of this year or early next year.

Billionaires Row condos are owned by money launderers.

Then and now NYC movie location site. Sort of fun to look at, NYers.

I blame globalisation.

When I moved to NYC I lived on 112th and Broadway it was across the street from this coffee shop/diner. The exterior was used in the TV show Friends. The place was tiny and not like the sets shown on tv. It was my go to place for breakfast on Saturday and Sunday.

[quote]Maybe NYers will laugh at this question, but is there anything edgier, a little more gritty, and cheaper in NJ?

If there is, don't bother. NJ is getting gentrified, too.

R248 It was Seinfeld you asshole.

NYC died when it allowed Giuliani and Trump to live.

Fings aint wat they used to be

^ oi, do me a favour!

Hope you all spun that disc.

R249 I moved across the river to Jersey City a few years ago when it was grittier than NYC. Now it is almost as bad as NYC, huge apt towers are being built wherever they can fit them in. The only positive is every time a new building opens it raises the RE value of my condo which is now over 3X what I paid for it I couldn't afford to buy it at current prices.

You're right R250 I shouldn't post until I've had my 2 cups of coffee.

[quote][R249] I moved across the river to Jersey City a few years ago when it was grittier than NYC.

Yeah. I haven't been to Jersey City and was thinking about it but knew it was fucked as soon as I saw all the hipster blogs and real estate sections doing their stupid listicles enticing all the gentrifiers to move out there ("Top 10 Reasons You Need to Move to Jersey City!" "Why Jersey City is the new Brooklyn!") I hate developers, but these asshole bloggers and writers are just as much to blame for what's happening now as them. People, from what I understand, fled to Jersey City to escape the gentrification in NYC and recreate what was lost. Now the asshole bloggers and writers are trying to encourage the same assholes that ruined NYC to ruin places like JC, too.

It's like these people have a pathological need to take over any nice area that excludes them, as in, "No fair! Why do these artists, Italian-Americans, Arabs, Caribbeans, Asians, etc. get to have their nice enclaves and not share them with us? Wahhhh! We want their neighborhood! We want it now!" This is the "cultural appropriation" that so many people talk about but actually affects working class/ethnic whites and white creatives, too. There's this arrogant notion on the part of white elites that demographics have no right to keep nice areas for themselves, to have their own culture, to have their own special enclaves. No, as soon as the working class, immigrants, artists, whoever create something special, the area has to get written up by some bullshit blogger or newspaper writer trying to hip everyone to the fact that now it's "trending" and it's time for them to move out there.

Next thing you know, luxury towers are going up everywhere, and all the mom and pop stores disappear, all the coffee shops and newsstands disappear, the hole in the wall restaurants all torn down for a slew of 711s, Starbucks and other stupid chain stores.

I hate how they keep assigning cutesy names to neighborhoods. NoHo, FiDi, DUMBO

Much of the ruining of Greenwich Village is down to NYU. They've gone expansion crazy and want to pave over everything. The Morton Williams (formerly Waldbaums) on Bleecker Street has really had to fight with NYU because NYU has wanted to tear it down. I think one if its saving graces is that it has this mural painted on the side of the building.

I agree completely 256. And immediately these areas become bland, soulless, wasp suburban central. What pisses me off is there are so many places in this country where these basic suburban hipsters can easily thrive,they are so well represented in this country. so why destroy a mini subculture that someone else has created?

[quote]I hate how they keep assigning cutesy names to neighborhoods. NoHo, FiDi, DUMBO

They've tried to do that in London - but it doesn't work

Also in London, they like to call places "villages" as in fact London, long ago, was made up of villages - but some really ugly charmless sections that were never villages suddenly are.

Here's Brackenbury "Village" and this is all they have >

[quote]It's like these people have a pathological need to take over any nice area that excludes them, as in, "No fair! Why do these artists, Italian-Americans, Arabs, Caribbeans, Asians, etc. get to have their nice enclaves and not share them with us? Wahhhh! We want their neighborhood! We want it now!" This is the "cultural appropriation" that so many people talk about but actually affects working class/ethnic whites and white creatives, too. There's this arrogant notion on the part of white elites that demographics have no right to keep nice areas for themselves, to have their own culture, to have their own special enclaves.

It works both ways. In the 1960s and 70s, White Flight was occurring in NYC. Whites were leaving because blacks and Hispanics were causing social problems. And government tried to shame white people for leaving.

R256 Furthermore, I have long sensed a smug condescension among these waspy suburban hipster types,even as they hide it under self deprecating jokes. They automatically assume that there presence must be wanted and appreciated. It's like they can't imagine that these Arab, Italian, Portuguese and Asian enclaves might not really want them there at all. When these types first arrive, they will make a big show of enjoying the "ethnic "cuisine but within a year they will be demanding their Starbucks and Whole Foods.

[quote]Also in London, they like to call places "villages" as in fact London, long ago, was made up of villages - but some really ugly charmless sections that were never villages suddenly are.

I think a lot of people are confused. I've had people ask me on Christopher Street, "Where is Greenwich Village?" I think they are expecting something like Williamsburg VA where they can stroll the streets and watch costumed craftspeople churn butter, weave on a loom and bake bread and then hit the gift shop at the end.

The bland WASPy types are lured by Jewish real estate brokers

[quote]They automatically assume that there presence must be wanted and appreciated. It's like they can't imagine that these Arab, Italian, Portuguese and Asian enclaves might not really want them there at all.

Their arrogance and narcissism doesn't stop there. Not only do they assume that these groups want them there, many of them see themselves as blessings, as in, "Your enclave was shit before, but it's finally arrived now that we're here! Aren't you grateful? Aren't you grateful that we're bringing you luxury boutiques and high end retail? Aren't you grateful that all the blogs are writing you up as trendy? You're cool now, thanks to us!"

"I think they are expecting something like Williamsburg VA where they can stroll the streets and watch costumed craftspeople churn butter, weave on a loom and bake bread and then hit the gift shop at the end."

HAhahahahahaha. And so fucking true.

I lived in NYC 20 years and moved about a year ago. Everyone should live in there once in their lives yet move before you get bitter about it. This is really difficult for friends to understand, because the sacrifices are small and obvious at first, then become larger and easier to put off because everyone there has the same issues... until it’s too late to do anything sensible about the situation and one has very few options left.

I didn’t want to file for 20/80 affordable housing. I have a decent job, but am far from a millionaire. I think a lot of people just hope they win the lottery, expect the government to take care of them, or marry rich. That wasn’t an option for us. I was making the same salary every year for awhile but our costs kept rising.

We took a year, budgeted, and looked at all our options before moving to Tampa. It’s doable, even for someone who never thought I’d leave the city when I was single. Now that I’m away I can see how people have a disfunctional relationship with the city.

Very true, R267. I think living in NYC is a rite of passage. I was there until something told me in my gut that it was time to leave. I didn't become bitter so much as angry with the daily inconveniences of living in such a large and mostly dysfunctional place. One day, I just knew it was time to leave. I saw a production of "Company" years after I moved, and I was struck by a comment that one of Bobby's gf's makes about knowing when it's time to leave. It is true, and you have to respect that gut feeling, and listen to it. A friend form college has lived there since we graduated in 79, and he always said he would never ever leave. He left last year.

R267 good story. Amazed how many old time NYers I know who are moving to Tampa. I could see it -love St Pete beaches and sunsets. Not the bitter alcoholic queens of Wilton Manors. After 28 years, I’m wondering if I can leave. Terrified I’ll miss it once I’m gone and there is no going back.

Jersey City is the other place people seem to be going. Guess I could live by the PATH, but not sure I can handle the light rail AND PATH. Unfortuantely, the easily accessible parts of JC are getting pricey. And I just think it’s ugly physically and kinda depressing compared to Village.

R265 yes EXACTLY, as if nothing has greater value or worth in life than their approval. It's like the neighborhoods residents should feel honored.

[quote]I hate how they keep assigning cutesy names to neighborhoods. NoHo, FiDi, DUMBO

It's psychological warfare via Orwellianism, to further marginalize locals and make then feel as if they're relics in their own neighborhood and no longer belong there. Locals don't know their neighborhoods as "NoHo, FiDi, etc." That's what gentrifiers are calling these places. But if everyone (brokers, bloggers, etc.) keeps calling these neighborhoods by their trendy names, they become more identified with the gentrifiers and not the locals who've lived there their entire lives.

That's the whole point of this tactic, to go, "Well, you know, these working or working class people with their mom and pop stores and butcher shops and whatever can call their neighborhood, Hamilton Heights, all they want. But it's HaHi now. It's the place of Starbucks, stroller moms, Wholefoods and outdoor cafes. Hamilton Heights, with all these Latinos, Italians, Caribbeans, etc. and their corner delis, butcher stores and bargain basements--that's in the past."

Keep in mind the people of Tampa are bemoaning what it’s become since all of you New Yorkers moved there.

You hear it everywhere in FL, AZ and other areas where the weather is warm and it looks good to retirees. ‘Those damn New Yorkers,” are ruining everything.

AZ, the PNW and other areas bemoan the arrival of Californians. “These Californians are buying up all the real estate, making the prices go sky high and now regular people can’t afford to buy anything.”

LOL r272. My family lives in the Catskill Mountains (my family has lived there for generations). They've been complaining since I was born, "New York City people are ruining the pristine mountains" and "I can't believe they paid THAT MUCH for that house. It's a shack!!"

Orwellian -- yes.

But Orwell warned us about the Jews.

^^^ he's back again - talking about himself.

I think the underlying issue is the concentration of wealth. The super rich have such a ridulous amount of money now - and there are enough of them to take over the city. The middle class - which in NYC is really upper middle class - is pushed out by super rich people and their families. The domino effect then pushes them to Brooklyn and the poor to ???

For example, a building near me in Village was a nice 132 unit building with expensive 4K+ apartments. It was bought and converted to 36 apartments selling for a minimum of $3.5 million up to $30 million. The result is less upper middle class people living, eating and shopping in the neighborhood replaced by absentee super rich people who are never there and use services and online shopping to do tasks so local businesses don’t benefit.

Another example is Steve Cohen - sketchy billionaire hedge funder - bought a whole corner of West Village buildings to knock down and build a 50,000 square foot house JUST for his family. This should have been a multi unit building with 100+ apartments.

Cities always reinvent themselves.

This was 1974:

[quote]Another example is Steve Cohen - sketchy billionaire hedge funder - bought a whole corner of West Village buildings to knock down and build a 50,000 square foot house JUST for his family.

What street was that done on?

[quote]For example, a building near me in Village was a nice 132 unit building with expensive 4K+ apartments.

And what about all those new buildings going up between the Hudson River and Hudson Street? And why would anyone want to pay millions of dollars for an apartment that overlooks the West Side Highway? I think Daniel Ratcliffe has an apartment in one of those.

Hey when Donald Trump moves back to New York he will make it great again.

"This is the "cultural appropriation" that so many people talk about but actually affects working class/ethnic whites and white creatives, too. There's this arrogant notion on the part of white elites that demographics have no right to keep nice areas for themselves, to have their own culture, to have their own special enclaves."

Isn't it driven much more simply by people needing to find more affordable places to live, and then when they get to their new cheaper, more gritty neighborhoods, with more minorities, other people see it's possible and figure they can do it to. Once there's a critical mass, companies start bringing in the amenities attracting even more people and then it just spirals from there.

If you are bored in NYC- YOU are boring, not NYC.

As for the expense- yes- large cities- particularly important ones to business, commerce the arts, etc- are expensive. It's basically called supply and demand. People all over the world want to live here so prices reflect that. Sure rent control, neighborhood exclusions etc play a role. But essentially people want to live here and pay to do so. And yes, extreme wealth has made some buildings and neighborhoods terrible expensive. But the issue of extreme wealth is much bigger than making NYC more expensive. Rather it is a function of our political leadership and policy thereby.

As for the boring part. What can I say- I've lived here all my life. I've been all over the world and the US and consider myself extremely lucky to live in one of the worlds great cities and melting pots. If you are bored in NYC, you are likely to be bored everywhere. There is more to do and see here than practically any place in the world.

If you feel excluded due to price/expense- affordable housing can be found. It may not be in Tribeca or Central Park West or Central Park South- maybe Innwood or the Cloisters in Manhattan, or the Bronx and Brooklyn. And salaries tend to me more here too-

And for Pete's sake, don't get the idea that Times Square and midtown represents NYC. That's where on any given day you will find the highest concentration of GOP voting idiots (visitors) who think that this is NYC, and it is those idiots who vote against their interests (health care for all, public education funding etc) and conversely for tax cuts for the very rich and corporations- which helps drive up prices in the city even more.

Back in the 90s I could see you not the apartments of the building next door. There was a one bedroom with a couple living there that reminded me of me & my bf because I often saw the guy vegging on the couch watching TV at night. They were regular middle class people in my working class neighborhood. White people literally gasped when they heard what street I lived on. “OMG! You live all the way up there! It’s so dangerous.” And it was kind of dangerous at first, but the neighborhood was improving. We working class & middle class people improved it, opening ships & restaurants. Keep in mind the building I lived in was specifically for working/middle class. It was in the Mitchell Lama program where you had a sliding scale rent. It was built in th 1970s when NYC desperately wanted sketchy neighborhoods to improve, so they built high rises and beckoned the middle class. It was the city who was trying to gentrify the neighborhood, not wealthy people.

One day I looked into the apartment next door and it was empty of furniture. Guys were painting. But they weren’t just painting the living room and bedroom. There were more rooms. They’d obviously broken down walls and incorporated another apartment. The guy on the couch watching Seinfeld was gone. The building mage huge apartments and rented them for a very high price to UN employees.

I marveled at their chutzpah. Nobody would pay all that money to live in our working class neighborhood that was considered one of the uncoolest places in the city. The building filled up as soon as the renovations were finished. A family with two kids moved into the giant apartment. They never watched tv.

Little did I know my future was before me in that building. It took another 10 years before we were gone too, our building turned into a luxury condo development. I lived there for 20 years and it was gut wrenching to leave. But every few months I go back and now I say, “I could never live here again.” The Korean greengrocers are all gone, as are the bagel shops, the small coffee shop/diners, my tailor, the drugstores that weren’t really drugstores because they didn’t have a pharmacy, but you could always get toilet paper. The real pharmacy owned by a pharmacist is gone, the hardware shops where you could duck in & get a copy of your key made in minutes, the bakeries, the copy shops, the camera shops are all gone and so are the buildings they were in. All torn down. Big high rises took their places and they have Whole Foods, Duane Reade, CVS and Dominos pizza instead of the family owned pizza-sub shop that used to be 5here.

It really accelerated after 9/11 when cop patrols suddenly showed up in the neighborhood. Every rich cou0le in the world moved in, hired a nanny and began popping out babies.

I apologize for my typos. I’m very sleepy today.

Who knows the situation of gays in the West Village? The far West Village was a gay enclave. Christopher Street used to be gay mecca. There were more gay men per square inch and if you couldn't get laid walking down Christopher Street, there was no hope for you.

Gradually, gay men started moving into the less desirable Chelsea and really made it nice. And of course, after all their hard work, it became *the* destination and "they" but Big Cup, A Different Light and several gay bars out of business.

Was the migration from the Village to Chelsea due to losing gay men to AIDS? Did the Village become too expensive? Or was the Village too crowded and the men needed to move north?

There have always been housing issues in NYC. In the 1970s, it was joke that people read the obituaries to find an available apartment.

When anyone opines about NYC in "the good 'ol days" I reply "I was there. Where were they?"

[quote]No one is "hoarding" anything. It's a housing market that's in demand, so prices will be high.

Actually that is not true, the supper rich from around the world are hording real estate there. You cant put millions of dollars in the bank and not everyone trusts the stock market. They dont care what it does to the city because they don't really live there. Thats why its turning into a giant boring shopping malls. And in case you havent notice they are in decline big time.

[quote]More than 40,000 new buildings went up during Michael Bloomberg’s twelve years as mayor (2002–13), and another 25,000 buildings were demolished.

R1, do you have a source link for this data? I find it very hard to believe that [bold]40,000 buildings[/bold] were erected in that timeframe. That would be virtually every skyscraper and apartment building in the 5 boros.

[quote]the supper rich from around the world are hording real estate there.

Jerry Seinfeld owns prime Manhattan real estate just to house his cars. Michael Bloomberg had two brownstones joined together so he could have an exercise room.

Every city goes through a rise and fall. In the 70's NYC was pretty bad, I was just a teen back then, but you could afford to live there on a normal income. It got cleaned up in the 90's and rode that through the 2000 and after. Now, the pendulum is just starting to swing the other way. Not because of crime, because they squeezed out those who are not wealthy. No city can survive if its set up that way, you need a large middle class populous to keep the wheels spinning. It's going into a decline which typically will lasts30 year or so, then it will swing back. Its a lifetime if you really want to wait that out.

All those new buildings in NYC are not for the working class. They are basically placeholder for wealthy. Half of the new buildings are purchased, remolded but basically unoccupied.

Meanwhile, Hong Kong is considering taxing empty apartments to deal with its housing crisis.

R263 When you arrived on Christopher in the 80s, you knew you were among family.

R278 the Steve Cohen building is being built at Perry and Washington

R285 I think AIDS hastened the turnover of West Village to straight people - but it was already happening because by the 80s, gentrification was already hitting. AIDS just cleared out a lot of apartments more quickly. The reality is - like nice parts of Brooklyn Heights or Fort Greene - the fabulous unique architecture made it desirable.

The shift in past 20 years has been from working upper middle class people - mostly without children - to insanely rich “floaters” who don’t really live in a place but just occupy a space for a portion of the year - sometimes only weeks. West Village has been pricey since the 80s but it’s become like Upper Fifth Ave now with the super-rich.

Los Angels is going though a rebirth. They are building like crazy, downtown used to be a total shit hole now its becoming the place to be. High rise condos, and 3 new gay bars to boot. Silver lake also gone way up from gang ridden to upper middle class, average house just under 1 million. Long Beach which used to be a sleepy industrial town by the sea is having its whole downtown rebuilt with new city hall, court house, high-rise condos, and trendy restaurants. The gay community is sort of shifting there from West Hollywood, although WeHo will always be there for the vapid shallow label queen types.

In New York, The Bronx is the final frontier. They're already referring to the South Bronx as "SoBro."

[quote]They're already referring to the South Bronx as "SoBro.”

THAT’S RACIST!

Everything is so fucking expensive, and apartments are now owned by foreign money launderers who don't even live in them. It's all so sterile and costly and depressing now, I hate it so much. When you go out at night, you don't meet fun, quirky people like you used to.

[quote]Everything is so fucking expensive, and apartments are now owned by foreign money launderers

No collusion, no collusion.

[quote]When you go out at night, you don't meet fun, quirky people like you used to.

Take the subway over to East New York.

I agree with:

[quote]Isn't it driven much more simply by people needing to find more affordable places to live, and then when they get to their new cheaper, more gritty neighborhoods, with more minorities, other people see it's possible and figure they can do it to

No. I can't find any article that talks about this but it's been talked about many times across multiple articles for the past several years. Brokers have deliberately been go out of their way to find neighborhoods that they can talk up as "the next best thing" in order to spur gentrification there. Stupid real estate and hipster bloggers and writers (especially in places like the NY Times) will then repeat the bullshit the brokers are telling them to "spread the word in a slew of articles and blog entries gushing about how the it's on the verge of becoming the next Williamsburg/FiDi/DUMBO and how everyone's just practically elbowing each other to move out there. Next thing you know, there will be a mass stampede towards the neighborhood based on all the buzz.

For example, there's nothing going on at all in Sunset Park. But ever since 2016, tons of articles have been trying to make it happen, hyping it up as "the hottest neighborhood", "one of the coolest neighborhoods in America", "offering perfect Instagram photo ops", etc.. The noodle and dim sum dives keep pretentiously being written up in foodie blogs as if they were gourmet restaurants, when all they are are unpretentious holes in the wall serving the local Asian community.

What I'm trying to say is that you're right that if people discover a new neighborhood, it may lead to a snowball effect. But it's these brokers and articles that make the difference between a small snowball (a few hundred people who are just moving out there because they like the location and want to live their lives in peace and quiet without disturbing anything), and a gigantic one that winds up wiping everything out in its path (a few thousand swarming out there to lay claim to these areas because of buzz, then demanding that everything be paved over with a million Starbuckses and luxury stores when they get there).

R227, there was a time in the 1990s - my head has it that it was over after 1911 - that I was very cocky about Manhattan. In a weird way. I had my Windsor Terrace place, and people still thought of NYC as the mean streets, when it was so far from that. Now, I definitely appreciate living where I live, having bought in early, a nice space, I make a reasonable living for one person in my circumstances (high five figures), no mortgage, just maintenance (under 500 dollars and due to go down when the building mortgage is paid off in a year and a half. My own apartment mortgage was paid off in 2017) and the neighborhood is exploding. A friend in a building down the street also has no mortgage. Her building, unlike mine, is post war, but her space is bigger than mine (mine is 700 sq feet). Everyone who moved here after 9/11 are couples who either sold their Manhattan studios when they married, or used their parents as co-signers to get in here. I think their calculation is - pay for human scaled space and send the kids to a great public school. When the kids move on to high school, sell, realize a couple hundred thousand profit or more, and get out there to Jersey.

Here's what kills me. Most of my relatives are in the MD/DC and VA area. I have a niece who, with her husband, spent about 500k on their McMansion in suburban MD about 2 years ago. It was a big upgrade from their little cottage thing just outside the city. It is MASSIVE inside. They host the extended family holiday now. Firepit outside. Recreation space downstairs - home movie calibre set up, plus pool table, etc. BIG great room opening onto the kitchen. Four (5 maybe?) bedrooms, dining room, other space - can't keep track. 500k.

My apartment is 700 square feet and one bedroom. The kitchen needs a reno. I can't afford a reno that includes the cabinets and countertops, last done in 2006 (it would be 30k minimal), so I'm replacing the floor, the backsplash, repainting, and MAYBE doing the cabinet doors. For ME. If I didn't touch it, and moved tomorrow, I could get 500k if I were LAZY. Four years ago, the people downstairs in the renovated version of mine sold it for 700k after buying it for 460k two years before. Why? The footprint, the school, the famer's market, the playground, the park. The people downstairs just had a baby, so probably will sell and realize 100k on the sale. She's an architect, he's ABC.

I must say I do feel kind of funky in my building. It used to be old people, who rented, cause when it converted in 1987 it was a noneviction plan. Most have died off - not all. I have a friend who rents because she used to live here with her boyfriend - don't know how she's finagled it, but she has. There's a comfortable number of women like me who got in early. There's a bunch of other women like me who got in later and paid much more, but not as much as they'd pay as if they were in Manhattan. Then there's the delightful (seriously) family down the hall, whose mom went to boarding school, then every Ivy there is, and the dad has a ton of money, and they're raising their kids "down to earth" which means no boarding school, the local pre-k at 6k every five weeks, and God knows what else, but they paid for three bedrooms.

To be continued...

^2011, obviously, not 1911.

But, I work with lawyers, and one is a young lawyer engaged to her contractor-employee bfriend. They live in a very tight space in the West Village for under 3k a month. She's adament about not spending more than that, and if she held her ground, she'd win. She could get a reno in Chelsea for a little over 2k and much more space. But buying? I don't know. You have to suss it out. There's a ton of stock on the UES because it's not all filagree and historic buildings like the UWS - it's a lot of towers and crap. One of my friends had an apartment I adored on 79th. It was a box, but the layout and footprint was perfect (2 bedrooms, but compact in the best way), and had a balcony with one of those concrete railings. In her opinion the rent got too high so she moved to another spot, further east, technically a one bedroom but she set up the dining room as the bedroom. Don't know what pushed her to move - what did 79th street want to charge? 3k or 4K?

Any young person in my family who wants to move to NY, I tell them they can't. They need a place to live, number one, and nobody can afford it. Stay local, pursue it there. When I moved here, I rented rooms or was a rooomate for about a year. Then I got to be a roommate with an actual friend. Then met my husband. Then bought where I live now. Got to keep the place when our marriage ended, and could afford the mortgage and maintenance (never, combined, that much more than 1000k, no matter what the economy was doing).

If not for how it played out, I'd be gone gone gone. Ten years ago, I would have been like "Man, if not for how it played out, I'd have had to leave my wonderful NYC and Brooklyn!" (I was actually born here though grew up elsewhere.) Now I'm kind of like - too bad the financials kept me here.

Creative have left or in the process of leaving NYC because its so expensive and only the top 1% of them making any money. L.A. has seen a huge influx of that lately because while it might be expensive compared to fly over states, its a lot cheaper than NYC and SF. And gays are leaving SF because all the right breeders are buying out the Castro. San Diego is close to the boarder but so you would think they are more open minded but its got a very republican base there. L.A. is one of the few places I know of that seems to be getting in influx of gay men lately.

another piece of the puzzle

A lot of crying about Rudy Giuliani and Bloomberg, but the modern strategic plans for remaking the city go back to at least the mid 70s. Which is to say Abe Beame, Ed Koch, and David Denkins all pulling in the same direction before Rudy and Bloomberg. De Blasio now too though he gives lip service to denying it.

It was even an element of the 1980 movie Times Square. "Reclaim the Heart of the City."

I knew New York was over when they pretended to like "Shortbus"

The gays are in Hell's Kitchen now. The Chelsea gays got, well, old. And the West Village, though it is still somewhat gay, has become highly gentrified by heteros.

I've been in NYC 22 years as of this month. I'm a "creative". Last week I was having lunch with a world-class dancer, and we bemoaned the fact that more and more of our artist friends are leaving the city because it's simply unreasonably expensive to stay. And then what do you have? Boring rich people who don't actually do anything but shop. And that's if they're in town.

So as NYC becomes gentrified and absurdly expensive, where are all these artists going?

Those of us who work in the performing arts can't just go online, nor do we want to. We're not opposed to that, per se, but that's not what we trained for, and, moreover, we bring something to the table, as live entertainment will play a bigger and more important role the more insular and screen-oriented people become.

For the first time this year, I've thought about where I could go if I leave the city. It used to be San Francisco, but that's been ruined by Silicon Valley. Los Angeles is great for TV and film, but it's DismalLand for theater. Chicago? Maybe, but it has its own major issues. Atlanta? Definitely not. Nashville? Uh uh. Austin might be the coolest place in Texas, but it's still Texas, home of Ted Cruz.

Maybe it's time to go abroad. I've done it before. Spain? I might have to decide sooner rather than later, as my elderly landlord is now trying to sell the building.

It's all depressing and confusing. I actually subscribe to Harper's, and I stayed up till 2 a.m. reading this cover story. It's raised more questions than answers. I love so much about this city. Dreams have come true here. But the city seems to be on this terrible trajectory that can only get worse. If I didn't have two big projects about to come to fruition, I'd be looking more seriously. But maybe that's the dangling carrot that keeps so many of us here: believing our big break is soon upon us.

[Quote]David Denkins

Boy, you must be out yo GOT damn mind!

Now watch Washington Hgts circle the drain.

R310, I would highly recommend Chicago. The VAST majority of the crime is in the south and western parts of the city. But the north side is fantastic. And there are great parts of the south side like Hyde Park. I do think Chicago is going through a dramatic period of transition. I will say that even in the north side, where things can be expensive, you can find good deals. I've seen one bedroms for like 1000 a month. Try and imagine getting that in NYC.

[quote][R310], I would highly recommend Chicago

I'd want to be near a coast, personally and within an easy drive of a beach. Chicago always seems so badly located, right in the middle of the country.

And the weather is awful

[Quote]I'd want to be near a coast, personally and within an easy drive of a beach. Chicago always seems so badly located, right in the middle of the country.

But you'd be next to Lake Michigan, r314. You could swim in there.

r17 is right.

r20 But were you ever mugged?

Chicago is fucking freezing.

Washington DC is way more artsy and interesting than it used to be.

R319, Washington DC is unique in a similar way to LA, where the suburbs are actually way more diverse than the city. That's not surprising since there are actually tons of jobs in Northern Virginia. In fact, a lot of comments I read also indicate the best food in DC is often in the suburbs too.

Two friends of mine moved from NYC to the DC suburbs three years ago and they love it. They've told me that they wish they'd made the move sooner than they did, instead of hanging on in NYC.

[quote]Two friends of mine moved from NYC to the DC suburbs three years ago and they love it.

In my youth, I fell in with a hetero social scene (of older folks in their 30s) in the DC suburbs. One thing that struck me is how [bold]incredibly gossipy they were[/bold]...and the (married) women horny and predatory as hell. This is depicted well in the film Heartburn.

I think DC is the most up and coming city. And LA. Both slightly cheaper than SF and NYC, growing and plenty of jobs. DC is probably the most do-able alternative to NYC. Still East Coast, not insane winter like Chicago, and thriving.

r83 You didn't read what I wrote. I said I'm seeing beneficiaries of nepotism who are unqualified. Who have no talent. Who are lazy. Who don't care. Who basically suck of a variety of reasons at the job they are supposed to do.

I'm not talking about those who actually are really truly talented getting into a business by nepotism who have the skill, intelligence, desire, talent needed for the job.

The reason I made the post is because I'm tired of working with these beneficiaries of nepotism who are bad at their jobs or who really don't give a fuck.

No One In New York Has Had An Interesting Or Original Idea In The Last 10 Years

We've been saying this on DL for ages now.

r303 you are spot on about this I saw that happen with the area I live in. Articles and blogs and brokers funneling buyers to the neighborhood spurring more building. I've also seen them try to do it to neighborhoods that didn't catch on for whatever reason.

What else does anyone expect from a non-existent culture based almost exclusively out of moneygrubbing? All of the U.S. is like this, or will be like this soon.

^ yeah the dominant presence of financial services industry in NY brings problems