TIF Killed By Cougar While Biking in WA State

..........

TIF?

Lol. Also, what the FUCK is a TIF

Tax increment financing?

Horrific.

Read that the animal may have been ill or that they sometimes have dental issues that makes eating painful/difficult. Being so underweight the animal may have been desperate/more determined and more difficult to deter.

Wtf is a TIF?

That was one LARGE last meal

"Trans Identifying Female"?

OP you missed your opportunity to use the perfect headline:

PUSSY EATS LESBIAN

Does not seem like the best area for overnight camping/biking trips.

R8, my hat is off to you.

R8 wins the thread.

--------8<--------CUT THREAD HERE--------8<----------

TIF is Tourist In Forest, jackasses

Sederbaum, the first one attacked by the cougar, looks pretty petite and may have not had the upper body strength to swing the bike hard.

Two biological females biking in the wilderness without weapons or even dogs is putting yourself in a really vulnerable situation re: predators of all kinds. Cougar maulings are rare but there are bears, etc. To not have a gun or knife or bear spray - were they city folks who did not understand the environment? Running got one killed and may have saved the other by distracting the animal, it will be tough to live with that experience and survivor guilt I would imagine. Brooks outweighed the cougar by a fair bit, it must have been desperate to drag the body a distance to it sden.

One used they pronouns, but there were only the 2 of them biking. A bigger group might have been a less appealing target. RIP, what an awful way to go.

Even something like an air rifle or air horn might have deterred the attack.

That is not the real OP at R11, but good guess.

Weapons can be handy to have when hungry animals have teeth and claws.

T

I used to do a fast MTB trip around the Thumb Butte Loop in Arizona about once a week, as I had a job site at the top of a nearby mountain. I had a major panic when a good sized mountain lion crossed the road just ahead of me on a downhill. I kept going. FAST.

The area is an urban/wildlife interface, and that wasn't the end of the story. About 500' down the road, I encountered a woman jogging with her 2 dogs, and implored her to turn around which she refused to do. Idiot transplant from Orange County. Later, several residents lost dogs to a mountain lion, and one was killed, treed and shot by the Sheriff's Office and hunting dogs several months later coincidentally as I worked nearby. I still MTB, but avoid that area entirely now that I've retired.

They probably thought the cougar would respect them if they stated their boundaries.

R13 cont

The articles keep saying that the bikers did everything right. Except the part where running makes the big cat chase and maul you.

[quote] TIF is Tourist In Forest, jackasses

You're whining no one knew that obscure acronym, like it's THEIR fault they didn't know?

It's not even listed on urbandictionary.com

r8 Thank you, and thank you.

Gallows humor there, R15. This does highlight the gap between the realities of size/strength/vocal timbre that might be helpful in an emergency and things like boundaries and pronouns, which are of little help where the rubber meets the road.

These people did not have the awareness needed to be safe in that environment, never mind camp overnight there. Sweet, well meaning and just naive about the realities of the situation outside of thinking and words.

Tranny, get your gun!

R8 Please make ANOTHER thread so we can enjoy that headline!

We must reject this thread and OP for the fucking annoying acronym, passed off passive-aggressively like "we all know"!

FUCK YOURSELF IN THE TIF, with a TIF, OP! Fucking FUCKTIF!

You think you have problems, R22? Imagine a cougar munching on your skull. THAT is a problem.

Animals are far less likely to attack a bigger group. 2 people, with one who was quite small and one who looked kinda out of shape, was far too risky. More folks and some bear spray and it might have turned out far differently.

Five of my friends and I will be backpacking close to there this September (in the Enchantments). None of us are very big.

I just finished a solo hike today where I spotted fresh black bear scat and I'm sure there are mountain lions in the area. An attack is so rare that I don't worry about it. I'm much more concerned about humans, though the overwhelming majority of them are nice.

I'm 5'3" and just under 110 pounds.

[quote] I just finished a solo hike today where I spotted fresh black bear scat and I'm sure there are mountain lions in the area.

or Danny Thomas!

Cue trannys screaming it was a TERF in a cougar suit

6 people is far safer than 2.

Alas, the puma did not care about gender and race diversity, only about survival. We can all be so caught up in abstract things and the rhetoric that pronoun usage or dead names are literal murder. Yet, in the back country, it can come down to the simplicity of predator and prey.

Izzy would have been the one killed if the other had not run. Mauled and not out of the woods yet. Cannot even imagine...

The cougar overheard the lesbians bragging about scoring pussy, and said...

I like how the reports say that while the surviving TIF's head was in the cougar's jaws, the other TIF was running away at high speed.....maybe need to up the testosterone dose a bit.......

If either was having their period that can also attract the attention of animals.

No idea if they were on T, had hysterectomies, etc.

Read that the condition of the survivor has improved, so happy to read that.

You think you have problems, [R22]? Imagine a cougar munching on your skull. THAT is a problem.

What do the two things possibly have to do with one another??? That's like me then saying, "Imagine an asteroid hitting the earth! You talk about problems!!"

No jokes about dykes on bikes?

Hopefully in the future, others will now be more aware and thus more able to defend themselves. Weapons, dogs and larger numbers are all helpful against human or animal predators in the back country.

This kind of animal attack horrifies me. I can think of little more frightening than being mauled and killed by a mountain lion or a bear. In fact, I am somewhat morbidly fascinated by such deaths because they are so frightening. What a horrific way to die.

T activists and grieving family are quibbling over the pronouns of the deceased.

It never hurts to have bear spray, a knife, a larger group. Women are more vulnerable to predators, of the human and animal variety, be safe everyone.

RIP.

The mountain lion was 40 pounds underweight. If it hadn't been starving, it would probably not have attacked, or been so persistent in its attack.

Nature red in tooth and claw, as the poem says.

I wonder if back to back they could have fended it off with their bikes.

There are some good tips here, even about eye contact, barring teeth, being loud and seeming bigger than they are. As with shark attacks, going for the face and eyes can be helpful.

Agree that this animal was unusually persistent. Underweight but still strong enough to drag Brooks a distance. He went for the smaller individual first. Bear spray might have helped. Even a knife.

I’m going to have a FIT if I see TIF one more time!

TIA for not giving TMI on the attacks. IIRC it would make me sick IRL.

Forgot link for R36

I'm still trying to figure out if these two had dick or vadge

Let’s ask the cougar!

There was just one cougar, R39, the question is did it dine on dick or vadge.

The key fact to note, even when it was defending its kill, it ran away when shot at by LE. Had they been prepared with weapons and had they only explored the back country in a larger group, Brooks would likely be alive today. Even an air rifle would likely have scared him off, starving or not.

The way that big cats hunt will likely give me nightmares. Pumas are not uncommon out West or even in FL.

Poor cougar. It was starving? If a starving cougar is prone to attack, then I would think feeding them would be a better course of action. Can't the Fish and Wildlife Commission pony up some money for food?

All the talk of creating a safe space for various types of bikers and then not taking simple steps toward safety IRL.

Ironic and very sad.

Back to back they may have been able to fight it off but it sounds like they thought it was gone, not noticing that it was stalking Izzy until it literally pounced. They go for the head and neck and try to shake to break the neck, similar to the play behavior of domestic house cats. Izzy was smaller in terms of weight and possibly height, so was the initial focus of the cat as easier prey. Running is the absolute worst thing you can do. Better to grab a tree branch or something and try to drive it away from the one it was attacking. Easy to say, none of us know how we would react in the situation. Do not run, not from bears, either.

Of course I'm sad for the victims, but I'm also upset they had to put down that beautiful animal.

Crushed is maybe not the best choice of words.

Some might quibble with perfectly safe, too.

If Brooks moved west from Boston, cougars may have been a new thing?

The big cats are stunning.

Did someone have a TIF with then O.P.? "Tourist In Forrest?" Never heard of that, either. Cyclist, nature lover, hiker, bicyclist, outdoors enthusiast, sure. TIF, nevah.

OP stop trying to make TIF happen.

So wait. Both Isaac and SJ identified as male and preferred male pronouns. So wouldn't they be Trans-Identified Males (or TIMs)?

Could someone explain this to me, please?

Whaaaaaaat? Are they women or are they men?

They are Kitty Chow, R51

Pretty sure they are neither men or "small."

"TIF" and "TIM" come from reddit's section called "gendercritical" where they just talk about trannies all day and night. OP is obviously an active poster there, as several of the trans-obsessed DLers are.

Anyway, that is a beautiful cat. It's a shame they have to be so deadly. I love Grizzly Bears too. Why can't I cuddle with one??

TIF = Trans Identified Male (MTF)

TIM = Trans Identified Female (FTM)

The reasoning behind the term is that the anti-trans brigade doesn't want to give them validation in thinking they transitioned to anything. They identify as trans - only- but they are biologically male.

Give it a few weeks and we'll have new words.

R49 sorry too late, women have adapted to using it for clarity R55 Don't you mean give you a few weeks and you'll have new terms? Love projection

[quote]women have adapted to using it for clarity

No they haven't OP. Even on /r/gendercritical, it's not uniformly liked. That sub cannot be linked here without giving an error when you try to post or I'd link to 1 of 100 comments where members of that sub have their reasons for disliking the term.

It provides "clarity"?? LOL Have you READ this thread? All you did was confuse / annoy people.

Twink I'd Fuck? Guess not.

Gender Critical likes or feels sorry for TIFs,

TIMs however they view as male therefore they absolutely hate and despise them.

R57 Thinks all of life evolves from Reddit feeds

r60 thinks the general population is obsessed with labeling trannies.

Poor cat.. Those trannies should have been packing heat or bear spray. Air horn too like someone else said. Typical clueless "progressives" who aren't aware of the deadliness of nature...

So, if these women were dressed like men, pheromonaly they smelled like defenseless women. If they had given off a male scent, perhaps the cat would have been spooked away.

R63 Pretty sure animals have been taught to respect how people identify.....

Have any of you actually been in the woods? Cougar attacks are incredibly rare. Falling is probably the biggest cause of death.

The cougar had rabies which made it act out of character. The transqueen who survived is hoping post exposure vaccinations will save his life.

These people should have approached the cougar together, yelling and growling. All mountain bikers should carry a small revolver to ward off predators and dodgy backwoods characters.

The cougar had Izzy's skull in its mouth when Brooks took off running. It's possible that Brooks is a hero here, creating a distraction so the animal would let go of its smaller prey. They seemed to do everything else properly so this attempt to run is uncharacteristic and, perhaps, a noble sacrifice.

Apologies to r8. Meant to hit WW but hit FF by mistake.

No way, R67. One abandoned the other to the cougar, then the scenario flipped. Once screamed prior to the first attack, sounding even more like prey.

The family has asked that the deceased be identified as Sonja Jeanette Brooks and have asked for privacy as they mourn their daughter. So much for pronouns being literal murder, eh?

Three people or more are far safer from animal attacks than one or two. Neither had bear spray. Men are larger and stronger and have deeper voices, when attacked by cougars it typically is a man alone or a teen alone. Even 2 women, standing shoulder to shoulder and fighting for their lives would have seemed more intimidating and likely could have driven it off. Screaming and running sealed their fates. Of course, fight or flight is hard wired in mammals and none of us know what we might do in the same situation, but planning and practicing responses can literally be a life saver.

Sonja looks to be 200-250 lbs. That animal was strong to drag the body a distance.

Izzy, perhaps originally Isabel? looks quite small and short and was the original target. Plural pronouns for one individual really do obscure clear communication of events. Initially both were identified as men with pics being added and the description of Friends on Bikes as a clue.

People leading rides and camping trips into the back country should be more informed and responsible, even if from Kansas and NY originally. Coming across a mother bear and cubs at this time of year is not impossible. Tragic and horrific way to die.

Development reducing habitat and rising numbers of cougars, who require a large territory, may be changing those historical statistics re: contact with humans. If you look at the stats kept by the state, there are very frequent attacks on livestock (proximity to humans) and sightings of cougars. Time will tell if attacks become more frequent.

All the focus on feelings of safety re gender while biking and yet the most basic safety precautions - a large group, a strategy if predators of any type were encountered, and means of defense - were ignored.

Tragic. Hopefully this will raise awareness and lives will be saved.

Screaming and running while your friend is being mauled - that is when you drive the cat off. Neither had the back of the other, literally. In those kind of situations, standing together can be the difference between life and death.

I doubt that they will find something truly wrong with the animal, it was hungry. It dragged prey 2.5 times heavier than itself some distance, it was not weak, nor were ribs showing. Young animals need to establish their own territory, this cougar was strong and active - dragging heavy prey, climbing 80 feet, etc. City folks need to be smarter. Lots of scary humans in those woods in WA state too, and bears - too much focus on pronouns is serving yourself up on a platter. I will not be surprised if one was menstruating and that had gotten the attention of the cat.

RIP. Horrific way to die and now the friend has to live with running rather than fighting when the friend was being mauled. Both did it, but still, hard to live with.

People have fended off cougars with sticks, fishing poles, etc, even women on their own. Eventually they typically retreat, it may take a while. One account had a woman keeping the cat at bay for 45 min until it decided to move on. Cougars HAVE targeted humans out West and in FL and frequently live in close proximity. They are not the biggest of cats and prefer smaller prey, but many may be losing a genuine fear of or desire to avoid humans. Humans have typically been able to fend them off or deter them. Screaming and running are prey behaviors, unfortunately. Appearing bigger, by standing on a log or rock and by opening a jacket can be helpful, as is throwing anything that comes to hand. The idea is to seem like a threat rather than prey. People have fought them off with their hands. It is clear that they had no plan and had brought no weapons, not even bear spray. Why not have bear spray in the back country in spring when you might cross paths with a bear and cubs?

Sonja led bike trips and even overnight camping, which makes how this played out even more surprising. Awareness and strategies for preventing and responding to an attack could have made the difference between life and death. Another person or 2 on the ride could have been a deterrent. So sad.

The older woman hiking alone in this article, and publicly proclaiming the frequency - wonder if she has a weapon or dog with her? Lots of dangerous people - druggies, rapists, killers - and animals in the woods. It is not meditation in a yoga studio.

The link mentions cougars being persistent and attacking multiple times.

Sonja was morbidly obese, there was no way she could outrun the cougar. Mammals sometimes flee, fighting needs to be planned for.

Menstruation may make attacks by some animals more likely, may not be the best time for hiking, camping, cycling in back country. No idea if this was a factor in the WA attack.

Is TIF like TILF?

"Authorities said the two men did everything right, getting off their bikes, making noise and trying to scare the animal off. One even smacked it with his bike after it charged"

Menstruating MEN, r74.

Theory #3: The Victims Could Have Done More to Stop the Attack I spoke with Chris Morgan, a local wildlife ecologist and filmmaker, who received first-hand reports from the scene, and describes indications of a violent brawl. “There was hair from the cougar stuck in the bike’s chainwheel,” he says. Myers says the victim who ended up escaping had his head trapped in the jaws of the mountain lion before it saw the other rider fleeing, and dropped the first victim to pursue the second.

So what else could the pair have done after the attack started? Carrying bear spray might have helped, says Morgan. He also advises that people venturing into mountain-lion country carry a whistle or bell with them, then regularly using it to warn animals that humans are around.

They also shouldn’t have run away, says Cullens, of the Mountain Lion Foundation. “We advise people to hike or bike in pairs when they’re recreating in mountain lion country,” she says. “The hope is that if one of you is attacked, both of you fight. You should never run away from a mountain lion. If you see one, you should leave the area immediately, not stand around and talk about it.”

There are stories of even school aged kids successfully fighting off a cougar by looking big, scaring it and backing away. A 9 year old played a trumpet.

The bikes speeding by likely triggered a prey drive, as did screaming and running. If you hike or bike on the west coast or in FL, knowing what to do can save your life or that of another human.

Fight back and be assertive.

Planning ahead and being prepared with bear spray and even a starter pistol can be life saving. We are all mammals and it is easy to fall into patterns of screaming and running, but it may cost you your life.

It is surprising that someone who often led rides and camping trips in cougar/bear country was not more informed. A larger group would likely have deterred a cougar approach, so perhaps the issue had never arisen. Crossing paths with a bar with cubs is not out of the question. The quick movement of a bike is very much like a dear/prey to a big cat. The goal is to convince the cat that you are not prey and that you are a danger to it, while backing away. People have survived by using anything that comes to hand to fight cougars off, even bare hands.

Izzy seems really small. Even lifting a coat with raised arms and standing on a log or rock can cause a cougar to re-think things. Using a low and loud voice and throwing things, even rocks, is different than a deer and gets that message across. Screaming and running triggers prey responses and the cougar is no longer thinking, but rather, reacting.

deer not dear, long day

Such a sad ending to a human life. And the cougar was just hungry. I do not buy the super cougar story being spun, recreation is a big industry in the PNW. Cougar populations are steady or growing and they require a very large territory. Development is shrinking habitat. The more familiar they get with people the less they will be reticent. There are plenty of videos out there of cougars coming close to or staring down humans, in protracted standoffs, until the human backs away. The combo of rapidly moving bike and screaming, then running, were prey behavior. Hopefully greater public education resulting from this will save lives. The cougar is not that large 2 adults who know what to do should be able to fight one off, if it comes to that, especially if carrying bear spray and something like a starter pistol that will startle the cat.

[quote]Even lifting a coat with raised arms and standing on a log or rock can cause a cougar to re-think things.

I opened an umbrella indoors in front of our house cat years ago. I've never seen a poor animal more afraid. She ran into hiding for hours. Animals are very intimidated by you making yourself large, especially if it's in a quick fast motion.

Cheep! ❤️

The cougar is clearly a white person.

They are persistent, numerous encounters/stand offs are described as being 45 min - 1 hour +, with the cougar returning repeatedly. This cougar is huge, likely closer to 200 lbs. The young, male cougar in the WA attack was just over 100 lbs.

Watch this short vid.

Do not scream. Do not run. Do not turn and run you will not make it.

Stare down cougars and be assertive. Do not stare down bears.

Do not travel alone in forest. Make noise that is not like prey, no whistling, squealing, screaming. Be aware.

Do not travel alone in the forest, r86? There have been two fatal cougar attacks in the state of Washinton in the last 100 years and zero ever in Oregon.

Quoting the wildlife expert, R87. Do as you like.

Cougars, bears and men making meth are all out there, waiting for you.

If the people you would otherwise go with would leave you to be eaten while they flee, then it will not matter much, R87. The premise of fighting together is key. People standing together look bigger and that is a deterrent, as is noise. Groups of 3+ rarely are attacked by animals - safety in numbers and all that.

More tips for avoiding mountain lion attacks.

R88, men making meth tend to avoid the well travelled trails. Bears in the PNW are incredibly skiddish; if someone is lucky enough to see one it will be the bears backside running away. Cougar attacks are incredibly rare.

Attacks like these over blow the risks of animal attacks. The biggest danger is falling.

For Brooks, the stats did not matter and it is a horrific way to die.

As habitat shrinks, the stats may change.

Falling is a risk while hiking, not so much for a large city dweller riding on relatively flat trails.

People find cougars in yards or under their decks. As development encroaches, their historic reticence is changing.

Attacks are often avoidable and if not, people can survive if informed and prepared. Certainly a worthy cause, especially at a time of year when animals have young to defend and when young cougars are trying to establish a territory. Bear spray, for one, deters both.

Recent cougar sightings, WA state in populated areas.

Still nothing compared to other parts of the world.

Anyone who's stayed at a lodge in a game reserve in Africa (e.g. Chobe, or Kruger National Park) knows that the only time you leave the lodge is when you hop into a raised, open Land Rover for a game drive. From late morning until later in the afternoon, however, you spend the day either in your cabin or by the pool. You can't just go for a walk/jog around the property. And in the evening after dinner the staff will walk you back to your room from the dining hall.

R84 - definitely a white, male, oppressor class cougar exercising his privilege over the Trans-victims. Bet he was a republican too.

If he was such an active cyclist why was he so fat?

Attack by mountain lion is one of my greatest fears. When I was a child my family had a summer home in the Santa Cruz mountains and we'd see footprints and other evidence of their presence. No one ever hiked alone. About 10 years ago I was hiking with a group of friends in a local state park. We were hiking downhill to a waterfall when I began to feel unwell and chose to turn back. No one offered to go with me and I didn't ask. Big mistake. As I hiked back up the hill my mountain lion fear returned full force and as I walked I continuously spun around to scrutinize every bush and rock around me. I was so happy when I got to the trail head unscathed but was irritated that none of my friends offered to return with me. (This could go in the loser thread) I vowed I would never walk alone in the woods again.

That's a very long video R86. Where is the advice part?

Screaming, turning her back to the cougar and running were all, sadly, literally, fatal mistakes.

Be assertive, if a 9 year old and a trumpet can prevail, fight for your life.

PP, this is a good reality check re: hiking alone, but there needs to be a pact that you will stand shoulder to shoulder (to seem larger) and fight to the death, if need be, against a predator. Both Sonja and Izzy turned to run and did not come to the defense of the other. It should not be that you do not need to fight a cougar, just outrun your obese friend. Humans need to stick together, it is the way to make it out alive. Groups of 3 or 4 make an attack or standoff even less likely, unless you are near their cache or kittens. In that case, keep assertive, direct eye contact, stay on your feet, and back away slowly from whatever the cat is protecting.

Are we sure the cougar was not a TERF?

Kidding aside, the loss of life, human and animal, is sad.

Cougars that are orphaned young may not learn to be wary of humans, it is said. Cats are naturally curious. Encounters are becoming more and more common. People are finding cougars on the deck or under the porch. It stands to reason that knowing how to prevent or if necessary, win, against an attacking cougar is in the interests of both the humans and the cats, who are losing more and more habitat.

I would never go out into that Deliverance country without a gun, not some pussy "starter pistol". None of my friends would save me once a cougar had my "starter" idiot head in its' jaw. Plus I have a little dog, who'd be the appetizer. Bears even kill people who shoot with assault rifles.

What I don't get is why the cougar just didn't eat the first guy??? Maybe the guy did something so the cougar ran after the fat one and dropped him??

TIF will now always be Tourist in Forest, thanks for that.

Really though, if this was some hormone, menses/no menses related shit, we need to know just for future safety. Do cougars smell blood? or some hormone/pheromone?

Call me a sexist pig but I was surprised a man ran away and abandoned his friends' skull to some animal who was about to eat him. Probably got scared, but now I find they're both women? I know I'm a pig so please don't abuse me further. Thank you.

I guess it's never good to rely on others to give up their lives to save you. Men or women.

Shake it off wimp!

If the animal had rabies, as suggested a few posts back, is there any effective defense? An infected animal might not be scared off by typical maneuvers, like making yourself look bigger or standing back to back with your companions.

I wasn't there but it would by awfully hard to watch a cougar eat your friend if you were unable to drive him off.

I am reminded of an incident in Southern CA in 2004 ago when a woman did just that. She hung on to her friend as a cougar tried to haul her off by the head. Two men came along and helped her. They threw rocks at the cougar and he ran off. later they found the body of a man the cougar had killed earlier that day. It is a horrific tale.

It was the one who ran off without trying to save her friend who was killed right?

So that the one who survived knows that the 'friend' was abandoning her to be eaten by an animal.

Rabid animals are only easy to shoot with a gun. The rabies makes them crazy. Nothing else works. I’m not a believer in karma and all that but it’s awfully strange that the cougar dropped the first tif/milf (?) and ate the friend who did kind of abandon him/her(?). Izzy will survive by whatever miracle and lots of rabies shots.

If they both were women and taking some hormone, maybe the poor cat got confused. I’m not making this up to be funny. Animals operate on smell and instinct. Maybe the one who ran away smelled of blood? And Izzy seemed less tasty? I think they’re not telling us the whole story because you can’t violate the privacy of the two patients. HIPAA rules. And they ARE patients, with some complicated combo of hormones, and who knows what disease the cougar had or if it even had a disease. I think I’ll collar my vet. But it’s not likely that we’ll know the whole story...

Poor cougar

W.W.T.T.D.?

[quote]honestly still not sure what sex they were

They're both female, just stupid and/or crazy.

[quote] What I don't get is why the cougar just didn't eat the first guy??? Maybe the guy did something so the cougar ran after the fat one and dropped him??

R101, the cougar apparently had the skull of the short Hispanic-looking one, Izzy, in its mouth, when the fat black one, SJ, ran away. That likely triggered (heh) the cougar's prey drive, and it let go of Izzy to go after SJ.

I hope Brooks died fast. I’m having terrible Timothy Treadwell flashbacks. I hope he, Brooks (and Treadwell and Amy) suffered as little as possible.

I guess once a cougar has eaten a human, it will eat more humans but if they caught the cougar, they should have taken to it to some clinic and sequestered it and then made the decision to kill it or not. The police are sitting awfully close to a “rabid”cougar. Maybe it had kittens it was trying to feed. They did not have to euthanize it immediately. It just seems very unfair to destroy some starving animal because it tried to feed itself. I think it’s a lazy way to treat the animals whose habitat we decrease by our selfish behavior.

Ok, I’m off my soapbox now. But I want Fish and Wildlife to tell me why they killed that poor cougar in such a hurry.

Did someone say cougar?

Agreed, R112, this incident is very reminiscent of what happened to Timothy Treadwell and his poor gf Amie Huguenard.

Although at least in that case, Timothy yelled at Amie to escape while the bear was killing him, even though she was trying to fight it off of him.

SJ clearly had no such loyalty to Izzy. I wonder if Izzy had the presence of mind to tell SJ to run away? (And if so, did she think it would save herself? Tee hee, naughty Izzy!)

So let me get this right: SJ is a bio male?

I am guessing that because of the men’s bike being ridden.

No. SJ Brooks is a bio female. Meaning born a woman.

[quote]...but if they caught the cougar, they should have taken to it to some clinic and sequestered it and then made the decision to kill it or not.

Dude, you're joking, right?

First of all, it would be very difficult and dangerous (for both the cougar and the humans involved) to tranquilize the cat and take it to another location.

Secondly, WHY sequester it? Are they going to ask it questions to determine its overall attitude towards humans? Cuz, after being tranquilized and relocated, I gotta tell you, that cat's attitude towards humans would thereafter be pretty damn negative!

Thirdly, the answer is in the first half of your sentence: "I guess once a cougar has eaten a human, it will eat more humans". Humans are easy pickings for bears and big cats: we're soft, slow, fatty, and can barely fight back. Once such an animal learns how easy it is to catch and kill a human, they'll never stop doing it. Legally, humans are considered more important than animals, so the kitty had to be killed.

Its weird seeing news articles referred to them as two men then others as two women.

It’s easy to transport a tranquilized 100 lb. beast. Lots of Thorazine. It’s a routine thing. Not dangerous because Thorazine makes you mostly dead anyway. Have you ever seen a human on Thorazine? It can calm down elephants and rhinos. Then you can pour them in a bag.

When the animal is lying around tranquilized, that’s when perhaps vet researchers can do diagnostic tests. I could put that cat to sleep for days with Thorazine. But I’m not a vet. I don’t know what their protocols are. Maybe this is too futuristic for now. I can accept that.

Yes, a “man-eating cougar” has to be killed. But killing an animal for being an animal happens too often and some solution should be found, because we don’t want all the animals to die out, do we? It won’t happen in our lifetime but animal population attrition is already a huge problem. We’re humans and we are intelligent. I’m advocating protecting humans and animals.

Do you have a solution in mind?

If not a gun at least carry one of these.

But, but, but, R105, we are being told by the media that attacks NEVER happen. And that cougars are EASILY and QUICKLY deterred. And that the cyclists did EVERYTHING right, oh, except for the screaming and turning and running part. Eh, we were also told that they were men.

Turning and running triggers a powerful instinct to chase. Some are claiming that Sonja did that to draw the cat away from Brooks. Not likely. Tragic.

If I am going into back country, I want to be with people who fight back. Man or woman, Sederbaum and the deceased both screamed (like rabbits), ran or cycled away (like fleeing deer) and abandoned another human bein to a cat who now saw them as prey. In the story at R119, complete strangers risked themselves to fight the animal. We are all mammals, and fight or flight or flee are instincts but so is fighting for you life or that of another human. Man up comes to mind.

All the people defiantly posting or telling the media that they will continue to hike or bike alone in cougar/bear country, hope that works well for you. 3 is a charm, more likely to deter an attack, and at R119, more likely to fight one off. Cougars are persistent, tenacious and strong. Plus, they like to eat. But there are so many stories of them being fought off, especially when there are 1 or more other humans to come to the aid of the victim.

Sonja was morbidly obese and likely at least 250 and the 100 lb cat was able to drag her a distance. Sederbaum looks to be very petite. STILL, a NINE year old boy with a trumpet was able to hold a cougar at bay and win the stand off by ACTUALLY doing the right things, as his parents had taught him. In the back country, there are lessons that matter, and they/them pronouns aint one of them. I am still shocked that Sonja LED camping and biking trips into the back country and was so ill prepared, with no sense of what to do when an animal was encountered. Of course, given her size and fitness level, that may have been exaggerated. Very sad but realistically, BOTH could have survived had they been prepared and fought.

Against a predator, human or animal, humans need to stick together and fight as though lives depend on it. Be informed. Have a plan. Channel fear into assertiveness.

The cyclists were/are females, TIFs. The family of Brooks has asked that she be identified by Sonja Jeanette Brooks and has referred to mourning their daughter. The media tries to use the name of Sederbaum, rather than pronouns. Early on, they used they/them with regard to Brooks, which made it seem like there were more victims or people present.

The cougar was a male, no kittens to feed.

Cougars are allowed to be hunted in WA, the population is robust. NO way that they will leave an animal alive that has killed a human, way more likely to kill more, that is a global policy re animal management. Recreating in the wilderness is VERY popular in the PNW, people need to be educated so this does not increase. Cougars are sunning themselves on decks and sleeping under porches as development encroaches. This cougar was young and on the small side but was still able to drag someone who weighed at least 250.

R120 An even better solution is to snuggle in bed with your cats and puppy and scarf down chocolate cupcakes while having lively discussions with dlers.

Are there cougars on the East Coast as well?

R 117 I lost some important questions in there. I hope you see them by tomorrow.

R124, west coast and FL. Bears and other predators on East Coast.

The tenacity of the attack at R105, after it had already killed a man that day is the story that needs to be shared. People should carry bear spray, hunting knifes and consider other weapons. Although, the cougar, who had just killed a solitary cyclist, was driven off by throwing rocks and other items that came to hand. Thinking calling 911 will bring immediate help is a city thing, for starters, there may be no signal. Sederbaum was very lucky that the cougar did not kill both.

Doubt it had rabies or that it was starving. It was young and trying to establish a territory. Cougar was plenty strong and active. His ribs were not showing. He was doing what cougars do. Cougars used to be hunted with dogs, which greatly reduced their number. It likely also reinforced a healthy fear of humans. That practice has been banned, causing the population to rebound.

There are a lot of devices that make noises similar to a shotgun. I would still want to have a hunting knife after reading these stories.

R117 and everyone.

Are all these pumas happy to eat us humans even if they’ve never before eaten any of us ever? Are humans and their meat an acquired taste? Or is that an old wives’ tale?

Why did the cougar eat Brooks? So would any of these cougars eat me and my little dog? Don’t cougars already eat dead animal meat?

Of course I don’t want a “man eating cougar” let loose on Seattle. Jeez.

R124 I never heard of any.

If they were female, it should be reported as such as it could make a difference in the story. Even worse is when men 'MtF" commit actually crimes and the news reports it as women.

Poor cougar :(

Any cougar would be happy to eat you and your little dog too, R127.

The cougar ate Sonja because it was hungry and she was there.

It sheds new light on the claim that dead naming is literal murder, no? An alive victim gets to choose pronouns, a dead one has the family deferred to.

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The cougar in this story was also 100 lbs. Attacked and was fought off with a pen knife. Lots of cougars weigh 100 lbs. People should not think this could not happen to them in PNW or that they could not encounter a bear, wolf, etc farther east. My elderly mother has a puma that is often seen in her development in FL. People quickly learned to avoid walks at dusk and to keep dogs and cats inside.

Those that choose not to have weapons to hand, a group to help deter predators or a friend that will fight for their lives, puts themselves at a disadvantage in the wilderness.

In this attack, his hunting dog fought off the cougar when it attacked his owner. The cougar retreated but did not seem afraid of the human. In the numerous stories and videos of lengthy stare downs with the big cats, often 45 min or longer, they do not seem afraid, more curious, or disdainful.

Best comment: “I didn’t have my gun or bear spray on me, which was totally stupid,” George said.

This article strives mightily to avoid pronouns, yet gives excellent advice re cougars. Like an epi-pen, never hurts to have more than one bear spray to hand. Most likely to result in live human, live cougar, cougar who is more wary of humans. They sell all sorts of things to affix them to your bike frame, etc, so that they will be well in reach. People who grow up in the back country or who hunt are knowledgeable about predators, city folks have a responsibility to get up to speed, especially if leading TOURS of others or camping trips, as Brooks did.

Our Portlandia-esque "urban farmer" era has lead to anti-gun neo-hippies putting themselves in situations they aren't prepared to handle. This isn't an insult to people trying to be a positive force in society but our times has created a kind of protected innocence in adults that never existed before and leaves so many like lone sheep in coyote territory. Too precious for this world.

If you're going to go deep into very, wild places where wild animals see you as prey and you'd like to up your chance of survival, you should be ready to kill, ready to make a fire, ready to find water, ready to forage and ready to build shelter. Would the same thing have happened to a Marine? Possibly but very unlikely.

R135 And I'm not implying that these weren't possibly very nice people and that the death isn't sad but our current era has many urban people living under the impression that they're less domesticated, less dependent on civilization than they actually are.

R134 Maybe rural "flyovers" do know something, after all, city slickers?

So if you are not big and in the woods by yourself without a gun....What is the best thing to have? Bear spray? Air horn?

are these good?

When they find these bodies are they partially eaten? They make it sound as if the animal just killed a person and left it there which makes no sense unless they felt threatened and were simply protecting their territory. Or is it a case of not wanting people to know because of concerns about the families feelings.

It does seem odd that she was an avid passionate cyclist and yet was morbidly obese. Like she had just become a fan of cycling the week before.

I know SJ’s father. Very sad.

Why does everyone say the cougar "ate" Sonja? My understanding is that the cougar was dragging the body, not eating it, when animal control arrived on the scene. Supposedly cougars kill by grabbing their prey but the head and shaking, thereby breaking the neck. How long did it take the rescue team to show up? Was Izzy able to bike away from the scene? Was she unconscious and just lying there for a long time after the cougar dropped her to chase Sonja?

R140 I'm sorry for him. No parent should have to see their child go before them.

My father wanted me to go before him.

he wasn't at war with you, R143 . He was at war with himself.

R141 The cougar dragged Sonja/Brooks to its' den. Izzy then had to bike 2 miles to get a cell phone signal. He was helped by two people but the emergency operator had trouble getting a location on him. After they got a location, it took police about 30 minutes or more to get to him. Izzy wasn't sure of his location. The details are not completely clear. Izzy had a big laceration on his face and spent a night in a hospital.

I think the details should be released because people will continue to go biking in cougar areas. These two were woefully prepared.

I don't know what's worse, being mauled by a cougar/bear or being chomped on/pulled underwater by a shark.

[quote] If they both were women and taking some hormone, maybe the poor cat got confused. I’m not making this up to be funny. Animals operate on smell and instinct.

I know you're not making it up, and you're not trying to be funny. My cat, devoted and clingy, jumped on the bed at 1:30 am, yowling and running in circles before running off, because the scent my sweat emitted from released ketones was similar to cat urine. That happened only once in the fourteen years he's been with us.

The cyclists could very well have perspired. Drugs, dehydration can change odour of sweat. Wearing tight clothes in synthetic fibers stops the skin from getting access to air, so the sweat is trapped and reacts with the bacteria on the skin to create odour. Maybe the cyclists were wearing spandex or other stretchy synthetic fiber.

[quote]Supposedly cougars kill by grabbing their prey but the head and shaking, thereby breaking the neck.

That's one way. A cougar is not going to do that to a deer or a human. They would then resort to the usual method -- biting down on the neck to cause strangulation.

Saber tooth tigers are thought to have had those saber teeth because they stuck them into the necks of very large animals -- too large to squeeze the neck to restrict breathing. So they stuck the sabers in, and let them block breathing.

R138, I don't think there's any proof that bear flares work against cougars. However, bear spray definitely does work.

Wow, that's amazing @ R149. It's great that the spray travels so far. I assumed the animal would have to be a lot closer. It definitely stopped him too.

But what happens when there is more than one? That guy said there were two of them. I didn't see the other one. Maybe only one attacked. If they both attack you're out of luck because you can't aim the spray in two directions.

R124 & R128 Don't forget about the Florida panther. Doin' a little east coast swing. They aren't quite as big though and were endangered for a long time, not sure if they still are.

Cougars are ambush predators r150 which means they surprise their prey, and ambush predators typically don't hunt in teams.

It's important not to let a fear of cougars ruin your trips into the forest. You have more chance of being struck by lighting than being killed by a cougar. Cougars don't like contact with people and avoid them. If you do spot one and have your spray just stand your ground, make yourself look as big as you can (more dangerous), make deep sounds so you don't sound afraid, and give the cat room to move on. Don't spray it unless it attacks of course. If you spray it, you will stop it in its tracks.

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Did we ever establish what a TIFF is?

I do some light trail running and I'm always amazed to see how many hikers and runners listen to music in nature. While not much can be done when a cougar jumps on you from behind, but even a split second more of awareness may be helpful.

What's a good bear spray brand?

One of the most horrifying deaths I ever heard of was done by a drug cartel in either Latin America or South America.

A few of their younger members befriended university students who were protesting these cartels. They took them out to dinner where they had a good time then using other members trapped them, drove them into the middle of the jungle, stripped them naked, tied them to poles and then drove away.

R156 So how did they die? There are a million ways to die in the jungle. Just ask Alan Parrish.

That reminds me of the story the Iceman used to enjoy telling about some mob guy he was hired to kill. They wanted him to die horribly so they tied him up in a place where there were tons of huge rats and left them to be eaten alive, which he claimed to have recorded. While frankly I think he was full of shit, it's still a chilling narrative.

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These two were the equivalent of catnip and a red laser light.. He first got the catnip, then got completely distracted by the red laser light. He caught the red laser light and decided to drag it off and brag to his friends that he finally caught the red light laser...

How about falling into a snake pit? Has that ever happened (except on TV shows)?

The guy at R149 was really fast with the bear spray. I don't think many people would react and have it ready to shoot so quickly.

lynx

Lynx wants to attack therapy dog

Like r58 I also assumed TIF was Twink I'd Fuck. I've been here way too long.

While I agree with all the advice links (I know a couple people who live in PNW, and they said the same things), if the cougar was rabid, though, it won't display "normal" behaviour. A starving, sick animal is not going to be easily deterred, regardless of how much it weighs relative to its intended prey.

They are also ambush predators. By the time you see it, it has probably stalked you for an hour-literally. It's a lot harder to detect a cougar than a bear.

Well if you're tied naked to a pole in the middle of a jungle you're not going to die of either starvation or old age.

You're a freshly prepared buffet for any hungry animals. And you don't even have the advantage of having your neck broken first and suffocating before being eaten. There's no reason for it.

Its extremely rare for cats to get rabies... That explanation us bullshit..

r167 not if their environment is changed. Habitat loss, development (roadways, increased traffic), climate change, etc. can all affect populations. More pressure = more starving animals = more abnormal food sources that may harbour rabies.

I assume they smeared them with fresh animal blood first.

[quote]They are also ambush predators. By the time you see it, it has probably stalked you for an hour-literally. It's a lot harder to detect a cougar than a bear.

Someone upthread said a lot of joggers listen to music on the trails. Bad idea. The dude at R149 was able to spray the cougar because he heard rustling behind him.

Ewww, @ R161, that flesh-toned rock in the center looks kinda like human remains!

Americans are pussies. Imagine, if America was a natural home to tigers, lions, Leopards ?

Mountain Lions are like rats in front of them.

[quote]The guy at R149 was really fast with the bear spray. I don't think many people would react and have it ready to shoot so quickly.

[quote]The dude at R149 was able to spray the cougar because he heard rustling behind him.

Not only that, but he'd already thumbed off the safety and was holding the bear spray at the ready, finger on the trigger.

If he hadn't, he almost certainly would have been knocked down by that pouncing cougar, and probably badly hurt if not killed.

Bear spray is a vital part of self-defense in the woods, but a good hunting knife is equally vital.

R141, Izzy biked away. The cougar was not found until about 2 hours later. Help reached Izzy in about 30 min, I read.

[quote]Did we ever establish what a TIF is?

Trans-Identified Female, R154. Dunno if OP was trying to be polite and not call them women, or is just an idiot. But most of us think it's a pretty fucking stupid label.

Also, Tourist In Forest is way funnier and more appropriate in this case.

For a brief moment I thought the starving cougar was Courtney Cox.

We have all heard of people who in a crisis can lift a car off someone. This mom in CO lifted and THREW a cougar who had attacked her child. Needless to say, the cougar grasped that was not something a DEER would do and got the hell out of there. This is the kind of person I want to be in back country with.

Part of survival is mental preparedness. Knowing risks, having weapons, having a plan for defense, fighting to the death for yourself and friends. I think that the cyclists were under prepared and reacted on instinct, as did the cougar as bikes flashed past (like a deer), the riders screamed (like a rabbit) and one turned her back and ran (like PREY, a FATAL error). People who are not alone almost always survive the fight. Cougars often retreat and attack again. Sonja needed to hit it in the head with a bike or with a rock until Izzy was released. All 3 could have lived. Deer do not fight back, even with a mauled victim in their jaws they can be made to retreat. None of the 3 was thinking, just reacting. RIP.

Tips for surviving an attack. Young males and females seem to have little fear of humans - it appears to be taught or to arise from experience, such as being hunted with hounds.

Cats can be driven off by loud noises so bear bangers are certainly worth having to hand. The cat in WA was shot at and fled, despite standing on and defending the deceased.

Sederbaum is not good in a crisis, some are, some are not. Some have fought off cougars with a ball point pen to the eye or a pen knife to the throat as the cat shakes them and survivors include women and children, but they were informed and FOUGHT FOR THEIR LIVES. Leaving a friend to die is not cool. In this you can hear him shrieking in the back that he is going to die, even though he is miles from the cat, someone in a truck had stopped, and the dispatcher was trying to get location info to send help. Izzy kept saying it hurt, well, what about your FRIEND who was alive when you rode OFF? Not the time to make it all about you. His life was in NO danger at that point. They were trying to send help and he kept talking about his feelings. Not helpful.

I understand the trauma, but better to read stories of people who SURVIVE attacks BEFORE going into the back country. I guess it is fair since Sonja ran while she thought Izzy was being killed. Not cool, stand together and all 3 could have lived. City folk should maybe stick to urban jungles? This pronoun stuff is BS, it makes it sound like the cougar had multiple kills.

These were 2 women, one very short and petite and one morbidly obese. Neither was informed about or prepared for the back country. Both were ready to be the one who got away and left their friend to be eaten. They are/were not men and they did NOT do EVERYTHING right.

.............

.........

This guy fought off a 100 lb cougar, alone. They are trying to make this cougar sound outside the norm to protect the recreation industry.

They are now saying that the cougar in WA state HAD fat reserves as anyone with eyes could see. His ribs were not showing. He was not emaciated nor is it remotely likely that he had rabies. His repeated attacks are very typical as well.

Cougars are becoming habituated to humans as they encroach on their territory, many with hobby farms with goats, chickens and rabbits, all of great interest to cougars.

This woman was repeatedly stalked, over weeks by a cougar, even driving him off with a machete. The cougar continued to stalk her and on another day, attacked. She fought desperately and her partner was able to kill the beast with a spear.

Despite significant blood loss, she lived, as almost everyone who fights back, or who has a companion who fights, does. It is important to know that. Cougars are used to easy kills, they are not used to prey that FIGHTS. Give it the fight of ITS life and fight for yours.

Young cougars, like the one in WA are often not afraid of humans and can be quite bold, lounging on docks and under porches.

Everyone should carry one of these with them when going into the wilderness

Do not scream. Do not run. Do not turn your back. Those can trigger instincts in the cougar that can get you killed.

Is their population growing like coyotes? Should they be hunted?

They are hunted, R188. They used to be hunted with dogs, I think that has been outlawed in WA state. It was very effective and their numbers dropped precipitously.

They require a large territory and that helps regulate the population. Development with hobby farms in cougar country, and people taking to trails for recreation means it is more and more likely that pets or livestock may be attacked or that people and cougars are in close proximity. We may not see them or know that they are there much of the time, but young cougars do not seem all that afraid of humans. That is taught by mothers teaching them what to hunt and what not to, and by experience.

The advice for bears and cougars is different and that is worth knowing. DO stare cougars in the eyes, not so with a bear. If a bear has attacked, play dead, it may stop. NEVER play dead with a cougar, NEVER run, NEVER turn your back or crouch or bend over, they like to pounce and will see that as an invitation.

R169 You’re speaking of the Mexican cartels, I presume?

R189, never play dead with a black bear. Fight like hell.

They say you are not supposed to crouch in front of a cougar, but they also say throw rocks at it. Wouldn't you have to crouch to get some rocks?

Seems you would have to use what comes to hand in the moment, R192, which is why accessible bear bangers, bear spray and weapons should be worn or on a bike. Crouching or bending makes you more vulnerable to it leaping upon you, so perhaps backing away slowly, then grabbing and throwing rocks might be advisable. Same with branches, holding them out or up makes you look bigger and the cougar may reconsider.

Fight for your life, do not use your buddy as cougar bait so you can escape. Not victim blaming, but really not cool. One guy who had wrestled when younger used to mentally rehearse what he would do. He was attacked hiking alone and used wrestling skills to fight the cat, who eventually took off.

All the jokes on here about lesbians and walking sticks, but it sure would have been helpful here. Sticks are very handy to have when encountering snakes, too. Still, people have fought off cougars with bare hands, including the mom who grabbed the beast and literally threw it off her child. Brooks was significantly heavier than the cougar and could have done some damage swinging a bike down when it was focused on Izzy.

Like with sharks, if it come to hand to beast contact, go for the eyes, the face, the nose, all are very sensitive. Same goes for fighting humans. A stick, a knife, a pen or your fingers - jab into the eye and you may save your life.

Women and children have held them off and gotten cougars to retreat with nothing more than fishing poles. Bikes were both weapons and protection.

Had they known that they may attack repeatedly, had they known to literally stand together and have one anothers backs and that people attacked and mauled almost always survive if they FIGHT, the outcome might have been quite different.

Maybe locals with common sense should hire themselves out to accompany hikers and cyclists from the city?

It is possible that Sonja might have lived if Izzy jumped in the truck when he flagged it down and returned immediately to fight the cougar, particularly if she had fought back in the meantime. The cat would have struggled with her weight. I hope that in the same situation, I would do the honorable thing. Otherwise, it is a hard thing to live with.

People have dug their hands into dirt to try to slow the cat dragging them, or a friend has grabbed legs and hung on. For Izzy, from a place of safety, to wail about fears of dying or being in pain, rather than being focused on immediately bringing help to Brooks, is not how you hope a friend would react if your life was on the line. To go on about being worried about the friend, well, talk is cheap. The guy in the truck may have been willing to go back and may even have had a weapon.

Cougars seem to attack both men and women, so a small woman on T probably was not seen as prey due to smell, but rather movement and sound - screaming, riding by on a bike (flashing by like a running deer, a favorite prey animal), etc. Hopefully this will help educate others and may save lives. SJ probably would like that. Whole thing is horrific.

RIP and best wishes for a swift recovery.

Every once in a while I start getting the "rural living" fantasy. Too many street people, traffic, stress in the city. Then I read a story like this and I am cured again if the fantasy. I live in Seattle so know the area, it is very pretty. Very sad about both victims.

City or rural, have to be informed and realistic about the risks, R194.

It is shocking to me how ill prepared both were, esp with one leading group rides and camping trips into remote areas. Hopefully this will help raise awareness of dangers, how to avoid them, and what to do in an emergency.

It is on the individual, cannot expect 911 to show up in 5 minutes to save someone. It is a different world. I have known hunters and they are very aware of and prepared for encounters with wildlife from pumas to bears to snakes. For all the disdain folks from Seattle probably have for them, maybe there is something they could learn that they do not already know from NY and Boston. It is not Disneyland or some simulation. It is an ecosystem.

Predators cannot afford an injury, esp an animal like a cougar. If it cannot run and jump, it will die. Seem bigger, scarier, louder and more dangerous than it and do not stop until it has gone. Some will be deterred easily if they realize you are human, but many, esp young cougars, will not be. They are becoming more and more familiar with humans. So you need to be able to defend yourself if need be.

Pronouns and dead names are actually NOT a matter of life and death. But you vs an apex predator could be. Be informed, be prepared, be a fighter.

From R132's link:

[quote](A) 65-year-old Californian woman managed to save her husband's life after fighting off a cougar with nothing more than a pen. Jim and Nell Hamm were hiking in northern California when the mountain lion pounced on them. "Jim was talking to me all through this," Mrs Hamm said. "He said, 'I've got a pen in my pocket and get the pen and jab him in the eye. So I got the pen and tried to put it in his eye, but it didn't want to go in as easy as I thought it would." Mr Hamm was taken to hospital suffering multiple lacerations and two cougars were later shot by rangers.

Like others have said on this thread, if SJ and Izzy'd had any clue what they were doing, they could've almost certainly fended off this cougar with little to no injury to themselves. They were stupid (and arguably very selfish), and they've paid the price.

[quote] Well if you're tied naked to a pole in the middle of a jungle you're not going to die of either starvation or old age.

[quote]I assume they smeared them with fresh animal blood first. —R166 thinking in the mindset of a drug lord

I'm guessing it would be quicker and easier to just stab the person so that they're bleeding their own blood, ya know?

Less work + more pain = big win for sadistic fucks like cartel members

Yeah exactly, r195, cougars have to hunt to survive and they do it solo so know they can't afford to get hurt because no one is going to bring them any food if they can't hunt. If the cougar had been hurt by these girls he would have weighed the risks vs rewards and run off. Alas, it was not to be. The vagina capes will be twirled at half mast tonight. Also, when the rubber meets the road, I wonder did Izzy tell them they had to hurry as it was a woman and she was not able to fight, or did she use "they/their" and confuse the shit out of the rescuers? I bet not, that identity politics shit falls apart when you need to make a coherent and descriptive sentence.

This story is insane

[quote]Every once in a while I start getting the "rural living" fantasy. Too many street people, traffic, stress in the city. Then I read a story like this and I am cured again of the fantasy.

Yep. I've pondered living in a "tiny house" on a homestead with chickens, maybe goats for milk and pigs for eventual meat, growing my own veggies... but I'm a city gal and I'd rather shop at a grocery store and order takeout whenever I want!

Bear spray works fine on cougars

Encounters are not unheard of, some are fatal, sadly. This one was in CA, another cyclist.

A friend and I were followed/stalked for miles on a hike through the wilderness of North Cascade National Park, by a scraggly weirdo with a hammer.

AZ has a rebounding jaguar population, who knew? They are similar in size, 100-200 lbs.

FL and TN both have cougars, along with the West Coast - WA, OR, CA.

Stunning animals, hope to never see a large cat in person, close up. The indoor treadmill and stationary bike look better and better.

Such a tragedy.

It IS helping to raise awareness though and may, in that way, make people safer, as Brooks strove for.

Wild animals are unpredictable. How easy to scare off they are may depend on how hungry they are and how you do or do not seem like easy prey. Understand their neighborhood and the best ways to fight apex predators, or stay in the city.

.........

I wonder whether somewhere in a parallel universe animals are discussing the thousand of ways they are attacked and killed by humans. "They'll keep you in a cage and fatten you up then slit your throat" or "one day you're just grazing in a field then they put you in a truck, take you somewhere and slit your throat" or, "Be careful in the summer, you'll be searching for food in the forest and they'll stalk you and kill you with a rifle" or "Watch your back in the bush because some asshole wearing a safari hat will shoot you and take a selfie with your corpse before sending you to America and putting your head on a wall" and on and on and on.

In the late 1800s elephant seals were thought to be extinct because of human predation until some scientists found a group of them on an island off Mexico. What did they do? They killed all but one of them and sent their bodies back to America for study.

Sometimes I ponder on the strange fact that carnivores must kill and eat other creatures to live. Such a strange thing. Most mammals, bird, and fish are super alert knowing that at any moment they will find themselves trapped by sharp claws and teeth and strong jaws. It's awful to think how many creatures die each day to become a meal for another.

Yeah and now Alexa will record it, too.

It said in some story on the Sierra Club website that Brooks(one person) preferred “they/them” pronouns to refer to her/him self. How is that possible when she was just one person? That’s why I thought both of them died when I first read that.

Isn’t this beyond a gender choice thing and a total distortion of the language? Have these gender people lost their minds? Can you imagine calling 911 and saying “a cougar took my friend and is eating them”. I would think the cougar is eating two or more people. I don’t know what Sederbaum said but the point is that Brooks might not have been as sharp as she hoped she was and was certainly no groundbreaker.

A scholarship has been established in “their name”(only Brooks). This is nuts.

There were cougar sightings in the woods and they shot them.

How many hunters and how many cougars? Well, as it happened it was a TIH (trans identifying as hunter) and a TBIT (trans bear identifying as a cougar). Or something like that.

Very funny R211. Maybe I can be two people and collect double the Social Security too! How are people getting away with this shit at jobs? If I tried to tell the ER that “we” were coming down to see a patient in the middle of the night and showed up alone, and told the nurses to call me “they”/ “them” my ass would be fired the next day. For being psychotic.

r210 Yeah that's what I said too, when the rubber meets the road though, and cops are called, I guarantee that "they/them" shit was dropped as was calling SJ a man, I'm sure she said it was a black female, period. Also, that Izzy literally had her head in the gaping maws of death. Do you think she may drop this t shit now? Like when something like that happens, do you realize what's really important? She almost died and she probably has no kids and if she fully transes, like with a a hysterectomy, she won't be able to have any. I wonder if she will live quietly as a butch lesbian and maybe even get a sperm donor to have a child so that something of her lives on.

I hope so and I hope it’s someone who loves her enough not to leave her alone when she’s having her skull chomped on.

[quote]AZ has a rebounding jaguar population, who knew?

Wait, what?!?!? There are fucking JAGUARS in North America?!?!?

Who is the loon on this tread who keeps banging on...and on... and on with several long screeds about how to defend yourself if you are attacked by a cougar?

We get it Sister Mary Schoolmarm! Don't run, don't scream, don't crouch, carry bear spray and a bull horn, make yourself bigger, throw rocks, look them in the eye, fight like hell and bring a friend with you who isn't a douche who will run away.

We got it. Now STFU.

In they end, they weren't very manly now, were they?

It took me reading a full article to realize that these were two guys. I thought they were two butch lesbians.

I get so tired of this identity politics shit, this is why the republicans are going to continue to take over. Google Jordan Peterson. He was a Toronto professor charged with a hate crime for not using the proper pronoun. He's got some very interesting videos up on YouTube.

[quote]It took me reading a full article to realize that these were two guys. I thought they were two butch lesbians.

Then you need to read it again. You had it right the first time.

No two guys. Two women who call themselves men because they have short hair and bind their breasts (or had them removed).

No, they were not very manly. But lone women have fought off cougars with a fishing pole and one threw a full grown mountain lion off her child with her bare hands. Children have repelled mountain lions.

When it counted most, they were not very BRAVE and in their self focus, 2 of the 3 ended up dead. They thought they knew all they needed to about back country, but the only knew how to interact with an easily repelled cougar who is afraid of humans. Often young cougars are not and a small woman who screams and moves by quickly on a bike seems like a tasty lunch. Some common knowledge in that environment matters more than pronouns. Even knowledge of house cats gives a sense of tenacity and how prolonged attacks can be, does not mean that the human cannot prevail in the end.

A woman in BC fought a cougar attack after considering giving up because she did not want it to eat her partner. The woman whose friend held onto her legs as the cougar tried to drag her past the tree line lived. Thinking of others, like the mother in CO can give clarity and almost super human strength.

People with prior trauma may be more fragmented in response to an emergency according to a therapist friend. All the more reason to have weapons like bear spray and a larger group that sticks together on the trail.

Agree, R212.

Sister Mary! is still not done lecturing us I see @ R221.

I keep reading this thread as "TERF killed by Cougar"

With a name like Izzy Sederbaum and a family in NY, I gonna go with a nice Jewish girl from NY, now going by Issac. Not Hispanic.

Sonja ran when Izzy was being mauled, so maybe there will not be too much survivor guilt. Google shows Izzy did racing on a bike team, very different than being in cougar/bear country.

R213, remember the queer campus activist who wanted to do suicide by cop? He described himself as a white man when it mattered.

True story, R203?

Cougar walks into house of man

Knew I remembered the name. Wonder if Izzy is related?

Yeah, the idea that cougars are petrified of humans and will avoid them at all costs unless rabid does not seem to be entirely true R229. Like all cats, many are curious, esp when young. Others want a meal. They prefer deer, and many of us know all too well that deer are living in suburban and even urban yards. The cougars follow. This one killed a deer on a front porch in a Bay area suburb. Just because we do not see them does not mean they are not often moving through human areas.

If it is more and more common to see cougars in the Bay area and Portland, stands to reason that they are becoming used to humans, so encounters are likely to increase in urban, suburban and rural areas. People are finding them on porches, under decks and making off with the family dog.

This dog owner did not follow and punch the cougar like the guy with the dachsund. Sad day for Bub the Yorkie.

From Oregon Live SweetPea 2 years ago These cats are most active at dawn and at dusk. They feed on large mammals, as well as small. Humans and dogs are large mammals. They have been known to attack mountain bike riders, knocking them off their bikes. We have all seen on TV how lions and tigers chase down their prey. Cougars or Mountain Lions don't do this. They stalk their prey and prefer to pounce after lying in wait, often from a high bank which may be covered in brush so they are hidden. If there is more than one person in the group, they will let the larger people go by and choose a smaller person, such as a child. « less

Cougar killed after attacking B.C. woman in her home

Yeah, R234, some do seem to avoid humans, others sure do not.

While on the way back to their campsite for the night, a pair of hikers spotted a tail in front of them. Thinking it was a fox or a bobcat, they started to film while continuing forward. After it rounded a corner they assumed it had disappeared...

WHY is a cougar eating a tranny a bigger deal than a tranny murdering two lesbians & their son?

Ah, R237 we all know that answer, yes? THIS, while tragic, was an exercise in media describing them as 2 men, despite reality, despite photos, and in many cases, in opposition to the wishes of the grieving family. It ADVANCES an agenda and tactics. The tragedy you speak of, in which THREE lost their lives COUNTERS an agenda that is well funded and supported by governments, academia, the military, medicine, globally.

The comments at places like DM were an exercise in obedience by sheep, despite photo evidence that DM rushed to provide and the helpful clue about Friends on Bikes being for women, trans, etc. Several comments noted that these were 2 men so why in that group, lol.

May all 4 RIP and may memories bring comfort to their families and friends.

Where is the story about the 9 year old using a trumpet to scare off the cougar?

Also, re link at R236 - did you notice how when they sited the cougar toward the end, it was positioned next to a dying/dead tree with rust colored needles. Gave the animal camouflage making it harder to see at first. And the way it was just staring at them. Both beautiful and unnerving.

[quote]it was positioned next to a dying/dead tree with rust colored needles. Gave the animal camouflage making it harder to see at first. And the way it was just staring at them. Both beautiful and unnerving.

Yes, R239

Out of interest, why does screaming set big cats off? Their usual prey will just run like the clappers, without going 'EEEEEK'.

r221 But you still don't get it, because only one person died, not 2. Don't be thrown off by the confusing bullshit about "them succumbing to their injuries" only one person died, she just happened to use they/them pronouns which is fucking ridiculous on any day but even worse when media tries to write up a scary story and ends up implying that 2 were killed.

This verbal obfuscation that we are all being forced to engage in needs to end, I can't believe legitimate news services are reporting like this.

It can also be dangerous - possibly putting rescue workers in needless danger if they continue searching for more than one person because someone wants to use plural "them" to describe a victim.

[quote]I can't believe legitimate news services are reporting like this.

I know!! Shocking, isn’t it?

Nobody confirmed the YT shooter was bio female. I think the M.E. & journalists want to respect the privacy of man who pretended to be a woman & who clearly had mental issues & was a danger to society.

Why protect a crazed killer’s privacy? People need to know that “women” who demonstrate male-pattern violence are not women. Or people will think women are just as dangerous as men. I don’t mean that as an attack on men — but we all know that testerone increases aggression & sexual appetite. There’s a reason why car insurance for young men is expensive...

Oh absolutely. Can you imagine the exchange? Izzy: please, they need your help, I rode away and the cougar got them. Cop: um, them? I thought you were there with just one person. Izzy: yes, and they are probably being killed as we speak, go find them! Cop: ..... Seriously, or did she just say "she"? I guarantee she did, unless she's a fucking idiot.

I'm seriously confused. No joking, these were two biological women with xx chromosomes, or two men with xy chromosomes?!?! The inmates are running the asylum.

I wondered that, too, R241.

I haven't seen one 'Stop with the transphobia!' on this thread.

Interesting.

R249, maybe he doesn't care because they are women.

I hate to sound indelicate, but why was Stephanie so large when she was an avid cyclist? Usually bikers are as lean as whippets.

maybe she was just starting to get into it

R246 Sorry to disappoint you but dum dum Izzy said "he" referring to Brooks on the phone to 911. To his credit, he did not say "they". The first part of the phone call was cut off, I think.(on purpose). But I was listening to this and laughing last night. I know, I know, I'm horrible but I can't believe how many people are confused about how many who what died.

It's not transphobia to not allow some people to fuck so badly with the English language.

The PNW is hardcore.

Rabbits, for example, R241, scream when attacked.

The more that humans act and sound like prey, the more the cat is acting on instinct and not evaluating whether or not to move on or retreat.

Running, cycling past which to them resembles running prey, screaming - all trigger instincts to chase and pounce.

Yeah it is r254!

If you are referring to the deceased, R251, her name was Sonya Jeanette and she preferred to go by SJ.

R252, she had been involved in cycling, worked as a bike mechanic, etc for years.

IME, when people are that large it is often a reaction to sexual abuse or assault, it is as though the body does not want to attract sexual interest. Perhaps a child was told that they were sexy, etc. That has often been a reason young women give for wanting to present as male in society as well, less sexual interest, or they may feel, risk, following an assault.

R241, for you...other mammals make a similar sound. Super enticing to an apex predator. Literally, it screams that you are PREY. You want a cougar to see you as a THREAT to IT. That is when they slink into the brush. Even the cougar in WA, standing on the body of Brooks, when it is most defensive, took off when it heard a gunshot. A Bear Banger is similar.

Freezing, fleeing and screaming are understandable responses, we are all mammals. But FIGHT is the one that might save your life when confronted by a wild animal. If you can keep your calm you may be able to get it to leave, or you may be able to back away. If you fight, people often live, especially if not alone. Of course, if Brooks bailed on Izzy then Izzy bailed on Brooks, in essence, they were alone. Do not think the animal will stay focused on your friend, to your benefit, the tables may turn, as happened here. Fighting together, like your lives depend on it is the best strategy. Shoulder to shoulder starts looking like a big animal to the cat, bare your teeth, wave your arms, use branches or a jacket to seem bigger and you are speaking to it in a language it understands.

So many encounters or attacks mention the cat losing interest in a stare down or releasing a victim, after 45 minutes. It is good to have in mind that it may last a while and that the cat may return.

They do not see that well in bright sunlight, their eyes are adapted to dawn and dusk and wooded areas. That is when it is most likely that the cat may leave when it is made to understand you are not a deer. If that does not work, or in different lighting, it may not care, especially if it is a young cat. They are becoming more and more habituated to humans with development and by sharing the same wilderness trails.

This reminds me of when Donal Logue's kid went missing. News reports were for his missing daughter but in reality it was his 6'0 200 lbs son that went missing. That's not exactly helpful when you are looking for someone.

XX, R247.

The medical examiner used her name and referred to her as a female, as did the sheriff, although that was due to the request of the family.

The irony of someone talking about safety in cycling so much and then being so uninformed and unprepared, while leading camping and riding trips into the wilderness, is striking. There are LOTS of cougars in Canada, where Brooks lived for a time. City folks, I guess.

Agree, R262, although in that case they were trying to appeal to the child. In this case, Brooks looks like a large black woman, which would be the most useful description.

Wonder if Izzy will struggle with this or kind a be, do what ya gotta do. Brooks had not come to her aid either, so tit for tat, I guess.

Horrible and with better preparation, all 3 could have lived, although even an attacking cougar would likely be shot.

I do not understand why Izzy did not ask the people in the truck to drive back to try to help Brooks. It would only have been a few minutes later and she may well have been alive. The cougar would not be able to move her all that quickly, she likely ought weighted it by a factor of 2 or 3. They were only 2 miles away and there would have been 3 of them. Perhaps the people in the truck had a weapon.

Instead, Izzy still sounded like a rabbit in the background of the 911 call, CNN describes it as shrieking. I get the trauma and horror, I do, but someone else still had their life at stake. While the people in the truck and the dispatcher were poring over maps and trying to pinpoint a location, they had to stop for the woman from the truck to brusquely tell Izzy, you are not going to die. The dispatcher told Izzy he was doing a great job remaining calm, to divert him so she and the driver could get on with what needed to be done.

Eh, I guess Brooks had run away too, but still. Perhaps Brooks could have been saved had that been the focus rather than just Izzy, who was injured but not in imminent danger. I thought I read it was a couple in the truck, maybe it was another woman alone? I would think if it was 2 people, from the area, that they would have tried to help Brooks, only 2 miles away. So sad.

So what should they have done? They threw the bicycle at it, which was the right thing. But I guess that should have been done again?

r265 I didn't read about the aftermath, Izzy calling the cops, etc. But typical fucking woman, not knowing where they were and freaking out and crying instead of doing what needed to be done to help her friend. I wonder if she now feels more like a man, "I stared down a cougar!" or less like one, "I lost my head when it counted and was ill prepared to be in the woods>"

R266, lots of tales of people fighting off cougars in this thread and elsewhere.

They should have brought bear spray, for one. That would have resolved the entire incident. Bear bangers, an air horn or a starters pistol would also have been excellent first choices prior to use of the spray.

Are people reading this thread?

I guess not because the same stuff keeps getting repeated.

I know what to do now if I'm attacked by a cougar or a bear despite living in the tri state NY are and the idea of hiking or cycling in an isolated area makes as much sense to me as a flight to Venus.

Has anyone here tried walking in a woodsy area at night (in complete darkness) ? It is so spooky!

Not for cougars, R270!

So did the cougar have rabies or not? Reminds me of a film I saw where a cheetah attacked a man and cheetah normally leave people alone. It died the next day. It had rabies.

It has not been announced, R272. The cat was acting as cats do, it is unlikely that it had rabies.

SJ doesn't look as fat in some other photos.

The word safe was used over and over in promoting a different culture in cycle shops, then this.

Just tragic.

City people should not lead day trips never mind OVERNIGHT trips into the back country without some big reality checks and preparation.

Stunning and swift, apex predator in action on a trail in CA.

For anyone who has owned a house cat, the grip on the neck and disemboweling with the hind paws should be very familiar as a way cats play hunt. Incredible to see this.

Curious kittens investigate a front porch...this fear of humans thing does not seem universal. Likely taught by their mother and experience (say with hunters or with hikers who use bear spray).

Their behavior is strikingly similar to domestic pet cats, it is fascinating to watch them.

Never turn your back

R265 Not all fucking women run away and wail. But if this was a man(XY) that ran away, we'd be calling him a pussy ass motherfucker. That is true, unfortunately. And Izzy was wailing and panicking even when there were two people in cars near him and a 911 operator on the line. Sadly, Izzy sounded like a hysterical girl. I might have slapped her silly to shut her up. But I'm a high-testosterone female.

Maybe if they were just regular women, we'd say, "oh it's a bunch of silly girls" but the fact is that these girls think they're men. They are being held to the male standard. They're becoming men. But don't we have trans in the army?

When the dispatcher said Izzy was doing a great job staying calm I burst out laughing as it was clearly shade at a city diva. But I stopped because at that moment, they could have been saving SJ who was only TWO miles away and they had a TRUCK. I have always been very good in emergencies, it was taught and expected in my family that you would keep your wits and think of the well being of others.

SJ led OVERNIGHT CAMPING TRIPS into the back country and they acted like pronouns would keep them all safe from apex predators, not bear spray, bear bangers, guns, knives, sticks, etc. The wrong people crossed paths with the wrong big cat, for sure. So sad. Many, in various states and in Canada, do not seem to have much, if any fear of humans. That has been counted on to prevent attacks. If hunting with dogs is resumed, the cougar population with nose dive. City people should be required to learn and act in ways that responsibly steward the ecosystem they are putting themselves in. This cat was dangerous after having mauled humans and for the sake of humans, did need to be put down. Had they used common means of ending the encounter, all 3 could have lived, not just Izzy.

TIF with Cougar

Ha, R281, indeed.

This mountain lion is right off the highway. Stunning animal.

When you sensibly back away from a cougar, try not to step off a 15 foot drop. Your girl likely will not be impressed. Recreation is a multi-billion dollar business out west, not sure the propaganda that mountain lions are not in areas humans occupy is not influenced by that. They sure seem to be everywhere.

Wild, thought this was just a tall tale. There are multiple mountain lions in the Hollywood Hills. Astounding.

Drop the T cougar, drop the T.

Lol, R285.

Having a hunting knife is worth it in the wilderness. There are multiple stories of mountain lions being killed by or caused to retreat even by a small pen knife. Death by 1000 cuts, in a sense. If you may have to fight for your life, why choose helplessness? Many people describe what it sounds and feels like to have their head mauled by a cougar, it is horrific, but almost all who fight do survive.

The cougar story at link involved a dog, who sat by and did nothing to fight for his master. You do not want to be with friends or dogs like that in back country!

Lions are more likely to attack lone humans, small women and children. It targeted Izzy first for a reason. This spray should be on everyone, either your person or your bike, when in back country. They sell bear spray at REI, not sure about bike shops in the city. If they do not carry it, they should. Your life is worth $50.

Back to the screaming issue: rabbits scream when being killed, presumably a last resort thing. They don't scream while trying to escape. They're rabbits, not idiots.

“But typical fucking woman, not knowing where they were and freaking out and crying instead of doing what needed to be done to help her friend.”

Shut up you prejudiced cunt. Most men are fucking cowards, too.

Yeah but they always redeem themselves in the end.

Haven't you seen any old Hollywood war movies?

Rabbits scream when in fear, R288, see vid above. Best for humans not to do so around big cats. Sounds like PREY.

Couger cache

The body was partially eaten.

Typical NYer or NYer wanna be in NJ - trolling thread, yet bitching it has no relevance for him. Me, me, me. Good thing there is no chance someone with face danger in the woods with the likes of you for back up. Off to Reddit with you!

At least I learned about screaming and not running!

People in the cities think this has nothing to do with them, but when cities collapse you will be running for the hills!

I do not get why the 3 of them did not immediately go to help Brooks? This idea that police are always good guys and that they will arrive immediately to take care of danger is a white person, passive, city dweller mentality. There were 3 adults with a vehicle and Brooks was only 2 miles away. Why not go to her assistance?!!! Maybe the people in the truck were not locals either? This was not some super predator with rabies, this was a cougar attack. It happens. 3 of them with a vehicle and a bike to swing vs the cougar. Possibly Brooks could have been rescued. Saved even if driven out off the mountain rather than waiting over half an hour before even looking for her. Izzy had only been gone for a few minutes, the vehicle came almost immediately. 2 miles when a bike does at least 20 mph, faster downhill and when the rider is full of adrenaline - it was not long.

Izzy and drama, it hurts, etc, became the focus, evacuating her. Everyone giving up on Brooks who then was not found for hours. I guarantee that the cougar did not drag someone the size of Brooks all that far in minutes, she was 250+. In another attack story, a woman who was only 100 lbs spoke of the cougar breathing very heavily as it tried to drag her.

The cougar in WA was driven off by the sound of a single shot, hours later, far too late for SJ. Learned helplessness is not a good fit for the back country. Can you imagine if a parent let a cougar drag their child off while they sat and wailed about their own lacerated ear? It would not happen.

I am so worried about my friend? Please. There were THREE adults. A car would at least have a jack to use as a weapon, perhaps other items in addition to the bike. A human life was at stake.

I hope Friends on Bikes expands the notion of safety beyond a focus being trans, a woman or femme if they continue bike trips and overnights into back country. Maybe they can get a bulk order on bear spray and hunting knives. SJ deserves at least that as a memorial, no?

No, not really.

r296 If you want to play the hypothetical game, Brooks's epitaph could say "If I wasn't fat and incompetent, I would still be alive".

That would be cruel and pointless, R298.

Equipping other cyclists from the city with knowledge, bear spray and hunting knives could CREATE the safety SJ spoke about. That would be a living memorial and work toward her goals.

If SJ was non-binary and used they/them, why does every report say man? Did that come from Sederbaum?

A fixed blade knife kept in a sheath on your belt is one of the best things you can carry in the woods. Get a good one and keep it sharp.

I like the Benchmade brand, but even a lower quality one from an outdoor store is better than nothing.

R298, being fat was not a cause of death.

Change would to might.

I personally would assume that people leading bike trips and overnights into the wilderness would be informed and prepared and would have things like bear spray. This tragedy certainly sends the message that we are each responsible for ourselves and one another - be informed, be prepared, have weapons and a plan.

People have survived cougar attacks with a penknife or ball point pen to the eyeball (a wife was coached through that by her husband who was being mauled, talk about keeping your wits about you!) Obviously, a better knife is far more effective, thanks for the brand rec.

Knowing attacks happen, how to lessen the likelihood and that most who fight back survive seem key. Perhaps these 2 had never been in any type of a physical fight before? Definitely had city life backgrounds.

This story reminds me of all the times that people needlessly die in the wilderness because they didn't really believe they could be hurt.

These women ignoring basic safety rules is not much different than the tourists who go to the edge of a waterfall and think they'll be okay. They don't realize that the rocks are wet and will cause them to lose their balance. Or who go hiking without taking something to keep them dry and warm; a rain shower and drop in temperature will give them hypothermia.

People like this read the rules, but they don't internalize them. They don't really believe that anything will happen to them.

The people who know that a life or death situation is possible are the ones who fight back, no matter their age, size, or weapon at hand.

r303 Yep, they were more concerned with "literal" violence than with literal violence, that could kill them. I wonder if it was even suggested to them that they may want to bring weapons and they scoffed at that thinking it was toxic masculinity. I didn't know Izzy fell apart under pressure like that and couldn't get them to her friend in time. I bet they thought they were a kinder, gentler breed of men, and that didn't work out to well for them.

We're told shower caps work well to fend off the wilds.

That sounds about right, R304.

People say that if you could use a knife you are already going to die but that is simply not true. People have used small pocket knives and lived, even fought with bare hands. Knowledge of fighting and weak points is handy, as is a bigger frame and greater upper body strength.

Maybe the overnight trips involved more people so there were not issues with wildlife. Izzy is EXACTLY the type of small woman that would be targeted. Predators pick the easiest prey. When they got back on their bikes, they were ignorant of the fact that the cat was very likely still stalking them. The movement of the bikes, to the cat, is reminiscent of deer. He pounced just like a hunting big cat does. None of this was super predator, rabies, BS. SJ freaked out even worse, abandoned Izzy and ran into woods. Even on the most primitive level that cannot be wise. How are you going to hide from a COUGAR in woods? At least Izzy managed to save himself, although it is going to be very hard to live with.

Better to have the mentality of FUCK NO, with all I have been through, I am NOT dying here today. One guy was attacked, had his skull and eye socket crushed. He almost gave up, then decided he was not dying in a ditch in the rain, and managed to walk to a nearby town after killing the cat. When asked how he did it when so badly injured, he said one step at a time.

This dude had an amazing story. He got away after poking through its eye and stabbing it through the skull with a utility knife. A bigger, sharper blade is necessary to cut through their hide, sometimes even tranq darts bounce off. Resolve that this will be you if it comes to it.

......

Raising your arms up, growling, baring teeth, are to mimic a bear. Do people on DL even know grizzlies walk on 2 legs?

This guy fought one with his bear hands to save a kid. People often seem to find that superhuman type strength when fighting for another.

I'm not going into the woods unless I am accompanied by a nine year-old with a trumpet.

There was a DL thread about bears walking on their hind legs in New Jersey.

Women and kids have fought off animal attacks, but the greater strength and bigger frame men posses is an asset that T does not give a small woman like Izzy. Weight is an advantage too. There are many stories of men punching or choking attacking cougars. Many of the attacks come from young, male cats, just like in WA state.

Maybe Izzy and SJ did not know one another well and that is why an urge to protect did not kick in? We often can accomplish superhuman feats to protect one another, a child or a pet - from lifting a car to driving away a predator. A lone cyclist may be attacked unawares from behind but people together, shoulder to shoulder, can survive. Cyclists seem to attract chasing and the cats are faster. Hikers are often able to slowly back away before predator instincts are triggered.

[quote]Women and kids have fought off animal attacks, but the greater strength and bigger frame men posses is an asset that T does not give a small woman like Izzy.

That is why it is confusing and misleading to have them referred to as men in this story.

This guy punched a cougar that had grabbed his 80 lb husky. Pretty bold of it. Lots of good outcomes for those who fight back.

Mountain lions have come into neighborhoods near the heart of Palo Alto via creeks that run from the hills to the Bay. Everybody should have an understanding of them because they'll only come closer with time as their natural habitat vanishes

They should have fight an animal self-defense classes. (Not with actual animals, but with people who know what to do).

They are pretty animals, but deadly.

Exactly, R312.

Even in comments, when people noted that they were NOT men, other commentors would say, but the article said, yada, yada.

From what I can tell, if a TIF is attacked by an animal, the TIF is a man in the media, if a TIM assaults a woman or child the TIM is a female in the media, and if a TIM is killed doing sex work, they are trans in the media. The language is purposely being used to misinform, as are the stats. The medical examiner did note that she was a woman in the death stats.

We are being groomed/trained to respond to words in the media rather than believe our eyes. Brave New World or 1984?

How could SJ, always TALKING about SAFETY not have BEAR SPRAY in the back country?

There is plenty of info out there, R315, it is on city dwellers to seek it out and to buy and carry bear spray in a holster. You may not have time to get it out of a pack.

Any self defense classes would be helpful - women and special defense units are taught to go for the eyes or a brain injury when preyed on, same with an apex predator. I knew a guy who had trained in the military with Israeli Special Forces and he had a litany of things to use to defend yourself. Even a mens watch knotted in a long sock swung at the eyes can be useful. As is rushing at the face, yelling, with an opened umbrella. The goal is to trigger the instinct for the hands to come up and open to protect the eyes, and a knife will drop. It really changed my thinking about situations, and in a way, relieved worry as I had thought it through/mentally rehearsed.

Anyone in wilderness without bear spray is an idiot. Your life is worth $50. No reason NOT to have a hunting knife. Etc.

[quote]We are being groomed/trained to respond to words in the media rather than believe our eyes. Brave New World or 1984?

yes.

[Quotes] (Not with actual animals, but with people who know what to do).

So... ex-dancers from CATS?

[quote]We are being groomed/trained to respond to words in the media rather than believe our eyes.

Is there a propaganda or psychological term for this? I want to look it up.

Forgot link for R318.

R321, perfect example. Seeing it, experiencing it, is not sufficient. You want to seek out some official WORD or source to validate what you know is true.

What about those two bear lovers who I think were already mentioned above. Years of experience, studying and training with bears and they did not do one single thing to protect themselves in case of an attack.

The only thing they had as protection was a frying pan though I do not believe it was brought quite for that purpose.

And that man who made snakes his life's work and does the most stupid thing imaginable by sticking his hand in a bag of snakes.

I don't think we should be too hard on these people.

The most experienced can be pretty stupid.

R323, No, I know it is true. It is just that I think they are doing psychological brainwashing tactics, and I am sure this is a tactic and there is a term for it. I just wanted to read more about it.

I think the trend is more brainwashing.

I remember a film with Mark Lane about the JFK assassination and all these people that were there were pointing to another area where they heard shots were coming from and it was all about brainwashing them to believe what they actually experienced was not true.

Always carry bear spay in downtown Palo Alto.

Stop with the Trans shit.

Nobody knows what these abbreviations and pronouns stand for.

More importantly, no normal person gives a fuck.

Those two fuglies got what they deserved for causing the murder of an innocent little citizen.

Ah, get it now, R325. Loading the language is one term that came up on another thread.

That seems like another example of psychological tactics, R326.

Commentors at the DM, looking at the photos, STILL wondered why 2 MEN would be in a group for women of color, femmes and T. They literally said, but the ARTICLE SAID, when others provided a reality check.

Man, woman, or something self defined as in between, both not the sort of person to be out in the woods with. If you are too squeamish to gouge out a cats eyes to save your own life, stay in the city. Cannot self identify as an outdoosman and cycle in the woods if you will act, literally, like a silly rabbit, in an crisis.

HOW could Brooks lead other humans on overnight camping trips in the wilderness UTTERLY unprepared if they encountered a bear or cougar? If you have money for BRUNCH, you have money for BEAR SPRAY.

Honey, if you're on the rag you're not a man.

The people she led were even more clueless than she was. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!

But tampons in mens rooms is the big new equality movement on university campuses. Black people or poor people or gay people lacking legal rights or economic justice must bow to MEN on the rag. THAT is where funds should go.

This tragic event really brings home how privileged and disconnected from real life you have to be for this stuff to really matter. Compared to survival, pronouns are pretty trivial.

Are there even any butch lesbians left these days? Many of the movement icons ended up transitioning and dying of cancer. Not only does the T movement erase a generation of GLB kids, it finishes the older ones off with cancer, kidney disease, MS, strokes and heart attacks caused by the hormones. All along, big pharma makes bank. Now incarcerated felons are a big new market. What rapist would resist a chance to be moved to a womens prison?

True that, R332.

Cannot advocate for cycling equality when you are dead, just an incredibly sad and tragic death, one that POSSIBLY could have been avoided.

Bear spray is only $50! There are so many ways to carry it (like the many ways people cycle?) - chest, hip, on the bike, immediate availability is key. Once the cat retreated they should have expected it to return, and stayed in the open, not cycled along though woods like running deer. They should have had the spray in hand and not provided cover for ambush. They lacked rudimentary knowledge of cat behavior. The cat clearly did not fall into the uninterested once it knew they were not deer camp, like many young male cats, he was tenacious and not afraid of humans.

If you live in an area with mountain lion or bear sightings on the increase, why not carry bear spray when outside? Just common sense, like keeping small pets inside or being careful about garbage when camping. Are people in Palo Alto too cool to be eaten or mauled?

I guarantee you these two thought all that bear spray shit was nonsense and something that "mansplainers" pushed, I bet they thought they could out wit nature without having to hurt anything. Turns out, they were wrong.

I wonder if they knew cougars were in the area.

The young large man who watched this guy be stabbed to death while he urged other passengers to do nothing is of the same ilk. The assailant was alone, 5.5 and 125 and he had a knife. How does sending your wife to call for help address an immediate threat to a number of humans trapped in a subway car with a predator? Maybe the survival instinct is not strong in some people.

A dude claiming to be him posted on Reddit said he held the hand of the guy as he died. No, that is for a grandma to do. YOU, a young, fit, much bigger and heavier man, in a car with women and the elderly are supposed to grab a cooler, golf umbrella, etc and try to get the predator to drop the knife. Why think he will stop at stabbing/stomping one victim? Had someone pulled the emergency brake, stopping the train in a tunnel, help could have been a LONG time coming. Why go to KUMBAYA rather than try to ensure your own survival?

[quote] It does seem odd that she was an avid passionate cyclist and yet was morbidly obese. Like she had just become a fan of cycling the week before.

You can't lose weight just by exercising, except in absolutely extreme cases. You have to diet too.

[quote] A dude claiming to be him posted on Reddit said he held the hand of the guy as he died. No, that is for a grandma to do. YOU, a young, fit, much bigger and heavier man, in a car with women and the elderly are supposed to grab a cooler, golf umbrella, etc and try to get the predator to drop the knife. Why think he will stop at stabbing/stomping one victim?

Oh Mary, please shut the fuck up.

You were not there, and you have absolutely no business second insisting what strangers do in such a literally deadly situation.

You sound like Mark Wahlberg fantasizing about what HE would do if he had been on one of the hijacked 9/11 planes. It's not only laughable but offensive.

R337, how do people go into the Cascade Mountains without basic knowledge?

If the cougar attacks, fight back. Be aggressive and try to stay on your feet. Cougars have been driven away by people who have fought back using anything within reach, including sticks, rocks, shovels, backpacks, and clothing—even bare hands. If you are aggressive enough, a cougar will flee, realizing it has made a mistake. Pepper spray in the cougar’s face is also effective in the extreme unlikelihood of a close encounter with a cougar.

I guarantee you that r338, with all his fake butch talk of what she thinks real men should do, would have been running out of that car screaming her nelly little head off like Dakota Fanning in "War of the Worlds."

We've got bears in our neighborhood, but t we dont wear bear spray as we're outside doing chores, working on the cars, whatever. We've been taught to yell, bang on things and make noise to keep bears away I worry more when we go to bed and my partner insists to leave the door open so only a screen door between us should a bear choose to enter However we do have a gun bedside

"Bobby, part of being a man is doing things you don't want to do."

R340, a co-worker knew the deceased from school. The co-worker is a very flamboyant guy, but he is from TX and has been in situations where he has fought when it comes down to it.

His immediate response upon being texted the news was that there must not have been others on the subway car, because what other explanation could there be for people not trying to help? A large man standing up and loudly telling people to do nothing was not in the realm of his imagination. He re-defines the word nelly. He would have your back though, on a subway or in the woods or in an alley.

It was not a gang or a guy with an automatic weapon, just a small, thin predator with a small knife. People were going down to the Mall for 4th of July. Many had hard sided coolers, golf umbrellas and other things to swing, they even could have been encouraged to throw shoes to distract the assailant. Surprise is always good, rush someone with an open umbrella shouting and while their brain is going wtf? their hands are instinctively coming up and opening to shield their eyes. Then the knife is on the floor and the 125 lb 5.5 guy is not the one with the advantage anymore. YOU are now not at risk of being stabbed yourself. A few women could then overpower the assailant and many would outweigh him.

Since a coworker knew the victim, I have been party to lots of discussions about the incident and what could have been done, including input from someone who had been in Special Forces. If you do not think through options, you will always be an a disadvantage in an emergency and more likely to freeze or be harmed yourself. There are lots of common things that can be grabbed to be used for self defense and other handy things to carry.

If you do not want to defend others, why not see yourself as at risk?

SJ thought the cougar was gonna eat Izzy, but the tables can turn. The old joke about not running faster than the tiger but faster than your friend is not real good advice.

Hope I am never in an emergency with someone who stands up and instead of leading or even protecting himself, loudly and firmly tells everyone to DO NOTHING.

Scoff all you want but having an idea of what you might use or learning from those who have gotten military training really changes your thinking from passive to determined. You might not survive a polar bear attack by fighting back, but most people attacked by cougars who fight back live. Attacks might be rare but your life is worth the cost of bear spray.

R342, no one was running out of a moving subway train. Sadly, one man never made it out at all. My coworker usually wears eyeliner and cowboy boots with heels. He says they are good at crushing fingers in a pinch.

......

Bells may deter some animals.

Do people on cycles feel more invincible, more like they are in a car? Does repeated use of trails (also used by wildlife) make it feel like the suburbs to riders?

This poor guy literally ran his bike into a bear. Having no experience, weapons or bear spray, his friend also biked away, leaving him to be killed. Had he had bear spray it is VERY likely he would have lived.

Cougars do not care about inclusion, they care about eating to survive.

Sunset is a great time for a romantic cruise on a boat. On a trail it is a great time to encounter wildlife, something you want to avoid.

FOB was a SJ group and maybe a dating pool. If there were any locals at all they would have been smarter about the back country.

Donut rides?

A focus on storytelling but no mention of bears or cougars. Maybe going forward that will change.

Spring into Bikepacking

This spring, join the Komorebi Cycling Team and Friends on Bikes for a three part clinic series to encourage women, trans, femme and non-binary riders to adventure by bike. The clinics will be hosted on consecutive Wednesday nights - riders are welcome to attend all or just one.

W E D N ES D A Y, F E B 2 8 T H ~ S O L D O U T

The first clinic in the series will provide an overview of adventure cycling. We'll talk about bikes, bags, and gear used for off-road touring as well as how to approach your first bikepacking trip.

W E D N ES D A Y, M A R C H 7 T H ~ S O L D O U T

In the second clinic in the series will dig into the details. We'll talk about what and how to pack, how to fuel yourself right and how to develop and navigate a route.

W E D N ES D A Y, M A R C H 1 4 T H

The third and final clinic in the series will have two parts: the first part will provide guidance on how to lead a bikepacking trip and the second part will be a storytelling space, where we'll invite folks to tell a short story from a off-road touring experience.

All this talk of bear spray and knives, i'm bringing one of these!

"The third and final clinic in the series will have two parts: the first part will provide guidance on how to lead a bikepacking trip and the second part will be a storytelling space, where we'll invite folks to tell a short story from a off-road touring experience."

oh man, I bet they got a "storyteller" all lined up for this! Also, I'll pass on your "guidance" on how to bike in the woods, let me ask someone with a better survival rate. 50% isn't that impressive.

R351 Wow, nothing at all about safety, stupid as fuck

My sympathies to these TIFs. I know how difficult it is to mask your odor.

Bikes shops used the group for marketing, wonder if they sell bear spray? The Cascade Mountains have cougar, bears, wolves and elk. How prepared do talks by bike shops in Seattle make you for that. Or rides focused on eating a dozen donuts?

WEDNESDAY, JAN 31 ~ SEA

Swift Industries Stoked Spoke

Stoked Spoke is a winter series of bicycling adventure presentations hosted by Swift Industries. Each evening highlights four to six self supported bike camping routes complete with maps, slideshow and planning tips. This year the trip reports will be 5-10 minutes long. Once all of the presentations are finished, each presenter will host an information table where they will answer individual questions and have maps of region they explored.

Friends on Bikes will be presenting about our bikecamping trip to Milo McIver last summer, our group's mission and plans for 2018 in Seattle and Portland.

*This is a three-part series that highlights the best bike camping destinations in Cascadia and beyond.

Cycle shops promoted guides to the group for trips - there is a mention of teddy bears but none of the kind that can kill you. Unreal.

They would have been better off at REI, rather than at BRUNCH. REI sells bear spray, to everyone, including the non-binary. Talk about moving in a very small, self selected universe. Metaphoic if it did not end in tragedy.

They probably did consider themselves well informed, by Seattle standards. But a basic skim of the Park Service Guidelines re: the Cascades covers that not running not turning your back pretty well.

If you encounter a cougar:

Do not run. Avert your gaze and speak to it in a calm voice. Do not turn your back on the cougar. Hold your ground or back away slowly. Sudden movement or flight may trigger an instinctive attack.

Spread your arms, open your coat -- do all you can to enlarge your image. If the cougar act aggressively:

Wave your arms, shout, and throw rocks or sticks. If you are attacked, fight back. Do not "play dead."

Many of the day trip FOB rides are in areas with bear, cougars and wolves, as are the overnight bike trips. Lots of mentions of cookies and donuts on their website but none of cougars or bears.

With all the soft butch non-binaries in Seattle, are there any lesbians left?

CycloFemme PDX Ride

We’ll be joining CycloFemme PDX and women around the globe on Sun. May 14 to celebrate CycloFemme! CycloFemme is a global celebration for women who ride bikes! This will be an ~8 mile, beginner friendly, mostly flat pavement ride. We'll primarily be riding on the Springwater bike path along the Willamette River. Women/Trans/Femme/NB of Color are highly encouraged to join us!

*Homemade cookies, coffee and stretching will be provided by CycloFemme PDX at Islabikes.

CycloFemme is partnering with World Bicycle Relief in Kenya for a 1 to 1 match in donations. $147 provides a bike that changes a girl’s life. There will be a donation table at Islabikes and you can learn more information on how to donate.

Given the stories about people punching the cougars, etc. - how about bringing a pair of brass knuckles?

And, please, could someone link the story about the nine year old boy driving off the cougar with his trumpet? TIA

And those mountain biker types are just invading the cougars' & bears' space. But they are too egocentric to be respectful of that.

That video was posted upthread, R278.

Opened this thinking a cougar like Pamela Anderson or kellyanne had killed a younger sexually attractive man.

Forgive me I'm gay I don't know any cougar types. Joan Collins bit old now

Bear spray, or 2 may do you better and be more comfortable than cycling wearing brass knuckles.

Think the trumpet playing 3rd grader story was linked somewhere above? He did what his parents had taught him to do. Guess the Brooks and Sederbaum families had not covered wildlife.

The stories of sticking an arm down the throat of a bear or cougar or even alligator to trigger their gag reflex are insane. Guess you gotta do what you gotta do, if you do not want to be dinner. People have been mauled pretty badly, even had skulls crushed, and live. If that is your expectation, seems likely that you would fight harder and not give up.

My bad, R360. Do you have another one?

R321 Read “The Medium is the Message” by Marshall McLuhan.

Looking through the FOB website, it was more a social thing for non-straight women of color. Lots of mentions of brunch, lunch, donuts and cookies and a lot of citified routes. In the photos there is often a decent sized group of 10+. The easy, close rides may have attracted more riders and bigger groups would also negate chances of contact with apex predators.

They DID go into back country though and do not seem to have remotely grasped the difference, even at dusk or overnight. These were the rules they posted. #3 is a little bit heartbreaking.

ROAD RULES

#1 Be courteous

#2 Stop at stop signs & lights

#3 No one left behind

#4 Don't be a dick

#5 Have fun

Be mentally and physically prepared and aware of your surroundings, city or wilderness. Be informed, able to defend yourself and determined to fight back. RIP SJ.

Friends on Bikes April 16 · The rain didn’t stop our crew from reaching donut success! There was a lot of first time riding and climbing in Mt. Tabor and everyone killed it. Shoutout to Ristretto Roasters Coffee for keeping us warm with coffee, Delicious Donuts and Pip's Original Doughnuts for fueling our donut bellies, and Jene, Paula and Gritchelle for keeping the crew together.

#shredthepatriarchy #cyclingneedsdiversity #donutPOIs

The group has 2 wilderness camping trips planned for summer. Hope they will be more informed and prepared. Maybe they could SPRAY the patriarchy with bear spray?

The site is full of words like folx, so much time and energy focused on things fraught with emotion, but none focused on survival skills.

Determination, sticking together and using what is at hand can work, even for the elderly. The 85 year old is hard core. Good for him!

So much is a mental game, you want to be in the front, thinking part of your brain, not in the back - flight or freeze, screaming - part in an emergency. This 85 year old would not have been telling everyone on the subway to DO NOTHING against a short, thin guy with a small knife, is my guess.

When parents these days are being called into CPS for a 10 year old playing without adults at a park, my guess is that future generations are not going to be too self reliant or confident in a crisis.

If your chain breaks on a trail, you want someone reliable to literally watch your back.

.......

How about a sign at the start of these trails entering wilderness areas.

"YES, YOU CAN BIKE THIS TRAIL, BUT DON'T BLAME THE ANIMAL IF IT EATS YOU. THAT'S ON YOU."

That 85 year old was in shape and a quick thinker!

I have seen signs like that R370, sort of "enter at your own risk" in Canada.

Right, R371. It is inspiring. My big brother sucks, but glad to know there are people like this dude out there. You have to do the unexpected and SHIFT the power back - with a wrench or when gouging out the eye of the cougar. The guy who talked his wife through taking a pen out of his pocket and stabbing the eye of the cougar mauling him was pretty badass and composed too. Just reading and thinking about these stories makes you more likely to be calm and quick thinking in a crisis. People who think of surviving are more likely to do so. Do not think you are going to die, think HELL NO! Go for the eyes and head, regardless of the type of predator, balls are good too.

Stay safe out there everyone. The legacy of SJ is that metaphorically people will now mentally picture those warning signs on trails and they may be a little safer as a result.

Would a kazoo work to scar them?

An air horn seems practical. Cats hate loud noises, they have sensitive hearing.

Do not stop fighting for any reason.

Many people followed that advice and lived to tell, especially if they had other people or even a dog to help.

No one gets left behind.

Do not break that rule.

You try it, R374, and let us know how that goes.

Maybe if you get close and jab it through its eye. Let us know.

USA Today

"Mountain lion kills one man, injures another east of Seattle"

It shows how far the T have come in distorting reality, both visual perception and language, for sure, R377.

I read that since Sonya considered herself non-binary, she might not even WANT to be described as a man.

I would describe her as soft with a delicious cream filling.

This story, of an attack repelled by pensioners, is amazing.

They both lived, rangers said because they DID NOT RUN, stayed and fought together and kept calm.

They talk to hiking groups in CA, this info should also be shared with cyclists. Cycles flying by are more reminiscent of deer, as are runners. Hikers seem to see the animal often, rather than being grabbed from behind while moving. That seems like an advantage, but fighting it off is the same.

They spent their 50th wedding anniversary in the hospital, he got infections, but are both here to share their story with others. The elderly wife kept exhorting him to fight and is a badass herself. Holding a big branch over her head and yelling at it prevented it pouncing on her and led it to decide to move on and leave them alone. That is exactly what you do to resemble a bear and something that might injure IT.

Interestingly, this mountain lion, a young female, was put down with a young male sibling. Rangers theorized he watched but did not participate in the attack, those odds would not be as good. They still hike the loop where he was attacked.

Nell, who has received awards for her heroism, including being named Woman of the Year in her legislative district in 2007, said she just did what she had to do to save her husband's life and does not like being called a hero.

"You learn from everything in life, whether it's good or bad, and hopefully you become a better person because of it," she said. "I learned that life is very, very precious."

"Obviously, she's my hero," Jim said of his wife. "Doing what you have to do, what you need to do, is the definition of a hero."

An old friend is very experienced in martial arts and advised me that one must think about how one would react in various bad situations before they ever happen. Because once you are in the middle of such a situation, you can simply freeze because you can't think what to do. It's a mind set of considering bad situations and reactions needed to protect yourself.

When he began work on the movie "Beastmaster", actor Marc Singer met with the animal trainer who was in charge of the big cat that played the companion to Singer's character.

As they approached the animal, the trainer pointer to it and said "CAT" and then pointed to Singer and said "MOUSE".

That is what my friend with Special Forces training said too, R381. He said it is freeing because you have strategies and confidence, not low level anxiety. A lot of hand to hand fighting is the same regardless of human or animal, same points of vulnerability. A determination to fight and to survive, keeps you thinking creatively, not freezing or panicking.

The cyclists in WA were not informed about cougar behavior and were not mentally nor physically prepared for self defense. Had they expected it to stalk and attack again, they might have stayed in open areas or kept more composed when it did so. Initially they DID do helpful things, but bear spray, an air horn or some type of starter pistol might have spooked the cat on the initial approach. The sound of a gunshot spooked it later, even as it stood over Brooks.

It coming close enough to be bopped with a bike signaled it would likely be more persistent but they did not seem to know that, or what to do next.

These are magnificent animals and apex predators. They do not use dens except for kittens, so the rangers referring to its den and saying it must have been sick do not know what they are talking about. The cat was not emaciated and the stalking, chasing and repeated attacks are typical. The ribs were not showing, the animal was strong, active, and had some fat stores. Many young adult cats, both male and female, have not learned fear of humans, or have become used to them in certain areas. There is a lot of $ at stake as recreation season swings into high gear in PNW. When in cougar/bear/wolf country, be informed, take 2 friends and use good survival tactics.

Info from WA State:

Sleek and graceful, cougars (Puma concolor, Fig. 1) are solitary and secretive animals rarely seen in the wild. Also known as mountain lions or pumas, cougars are known for their strength, agility, and awesome ability to jump. Their exceptionally powerful legs enable them to leap 30 feet from a standstill, or to jump 15 feet straight up a cliff wall. Cougars use their paws and claws to trip prey (i.e. a swat to the rear legs) or grab it with their claws, then use their claws to hold their prey while delivering the kill-bite. A cougar’s strength and powerful jaws allow it to take down and drag prey larger than itself (Fig. 2).

Cougars are the largest members of the cat family in Washington. Adult males average approximately 140 pounds but in a perfect situation may weigh 180 pounds and measure 7-8 feet long from nose to tip of tail. Adult males stand about 30 inches tall at the shoulder. Adult female cougars average about 25 percent smaller than males. Cougars vary in color from reddish-brown to tawny (deerlike) to gray, with a black tip on their long tail.

Cougars occur throughout Washington where suitable cover and prey are found.

Wildlife offices throughout the state receive hundreds of calls a year regarding sightings, attacks on livestock and pets, and cougar/human confrontations. Our increasing human populations and decreasing cougar habitat may create more opportunities for such encounters.

A cougar’s daybed is used for rest, protection from the weather, and to raise young. Cougars don’t use dens like bears do. They may settle down for up to six weeks while the kittens are immobile, but afterward are almost always on the move, making daybeds as they go.

Research in CA shows young males are often around 100 lbs and tend to come into closer proximity with humans. Older males tend to have much larger and more remote territory.

The cougar in WA was a pretty typical size and acted pretty typically for a young male.

When it was said early on that they had not teased the cat, wonder what that was getting at?

Having owned domestic cats, it is remarkable to watch and listen to mountain lions who are so similar in behaviors and sounds. They even purr.

Wonder if CALTRANS really will build them a tunnel? They are following the deer and becoming an issue crossing busy highways. How the heck would they get animals to use it?

FYI, One hundred and forty-four (144) of the posts in this thread are by one ID. Care to take a guess who?

R386, are you serious?

T do not want anyone talking about SJ being a bio woman. The media calls them 2 men and refers to the dead victims as them, in plural. No one is allowed to deviate, despite the reality. It is Orwellian.

Yes R387. I tried to post them as an image, but the aggregate is 40 pages long and too large for the image hosting service. As I was reading this thread I noticed many posts were missing, which is because I'd already blocked the poster.

We thought about moving to Santa Fe. We went there to check out houses several years ago during the housing bust. The real estate agent showed us a picture he'd taken in his front yard which was just off Canyon Road. In broad daylight, a cougar was sitting under a tree eating a deer it had killed.

Wow, R390, that is NUTS. So much for the only being active at dawn and dusk.

R361 I thought it a crime de passion too. Would have been so much more fun.

More fun for SJ for sure, R392. RIP.

Update

Not many cougars on Long Island.

One day, two fluffy Persians decided to have a fight in my kitchen. They weighed 12 lbs. each and I am a hefty 120lbs. They were not neutered then, but , were also declawed. I thought, eh, piece of cake. I not only got hurt with scratches from their back paws, but I felt like I was in a blender. I threw every pot and pan in the kitchen on them until I threw a bucket of water on their heads and they ran off. My friends had locked themselves in another room, it was that violent. Dumped the friends, of course. Only water worked. They even looked like the cartoons of cats fighting. A 100 cougar would have finished me off in five seconds. The speed and ferocity or those two supposedly cute cats is fresh in my mind. There is no foolproof way to fight these monsters. If people continue to wander into a big cats' habitat, be prepared all by yourself. You won't have time to pull out sprays and aim them. Anyway, I'm not about to tempt some bear or cat. Also Izzy did not do anything wrong. She behaved appropriately. I really believe that. She nearly died and nothing could have been done for Brooks. I hope she recovers with no guilt.

Sorry for typos. A 100 LB. cougar would have finished me off. Sorry about others, very sleepy.

That is why bear spray needs to be on the bike or in a holster in bear/mountain lion territory. It does not need to be aimed, R395.

RIP, SJ. Hopefully Sederbaum heals and can move on. No one can change anything that has happened. Maybe the CA couple that survived a cougar attack and who speak to hiking groups could be a model to follow?

It definitely sounds like that "bikes for everyone except dykes" club that Brooks co-founded needs to bring in a speaker who will EDUCATE them about how to deal with local wildlife.

R289 A girl can dream

Maybe it can be combined with their frequent DONUT RIDES, R398.

.....

"a Westchester man "

A mustachioed lesbian with petite features. I bet the Jewish community would help Izzy, why the GFM?

I dunno, R403, how do the Jews generally feel about lunatics who won't accept biological reality?

That's a nice GoFundMe, I love that the goal is a reasonable $5k instead of a disgusting cash grab like many "victims" try.

It's raised $8,746 by 122 people in 14 days.

Jesus what a repetitive thread. One poster is just repeating the same stuff about cougars under porches ad infinitum.

Urgh, the rescue cat fraus are on this thread, treating the cougar as if it's some big soft kitty.

.........

re: that main photo of the three resource officers (or whatever they are) over the dead cougar's body -- I'll bet the guy on the right HATES that fucking photo.

He looks like such a dork! Like "Duuuuhhhh?"

Bear spray is very effective for the urban 'forest' as well. Keep some in your Crosstrek when you can't carry a gun.

Years after his extraordinarily hideous demise, Timothy Treadwell and his child-like view of nature is still influencing people-and getting them killed. Years ago, natural documentaries pulled no punches about realities of life in the wild, the ruthlessness and cruelty weren't shied away from. These 'animal' shows they have for kids these days make the natural world seem like one, big cuddly balloon cage. I remember when my boss' little daughter visited the business not long after Steve Irwin was killed, she ran up and hugged me, I asked her if she was sad because of Irwin. She said yes, but why did he do something so foolish? Dad pulled the plug on all the fuzzy programs, and got the kid several DVD sets of unflinching nature programming.

What was that old line of Woody Allen's? "The lamb may lie down with the lion, but the lamb ain't gonna sleep too much".

Yeah, I know this is Fontova, but the man is funny. And as HF says, the only really sympathetic character is the woman, she has to have been madly in love with that basket case to follow him into that frozen hell. I will join them in Hell, because I'm going to read it again. Olivia Newton-John..my sides!

[quote]Bear spray is very effective for the urban 'forest' as well.

I once saw some thugs spraying a drugged-out young woman in the face with bear spray, and she kept coming at them despite being sprayed directly in the eyes for literally 10+ seconds. They finally got sick of telling her to fuck off and just kicked her in the legs to knock her down, then made their escape before the cops showed up. It took another few minutes before she started shrieking about the burning pain in her face (and all the cops offered her was a towel).

Izzy's GoFundMe is at $11,016 of the $5k goal, raised by 152 people in 4 months.

Comment on Izzy's GoFundMe:

"Izzy: we have not met, but SJ was a beautiful, generous friend of mine. [bold]They[/bold] would have wanted you to be taken care of after such a violent and traumatic event. We will miss SJ terribly, and are sending you all our love and strength to heal."

Hmm, Izzy's gofundme hasn't gotten a single dollar more since R412's post.

Guess "he" is old news.

I'll see your TIF and raise you a TERF.

I have no idea what TIF stands for.

OP couldn't wait to use "TIF"

Makes her seem younger than she really is...

[quote]I have no idea what TIF stands for.

"Trans-identified female", which is even stupider than just "transman" or "transwoman".

OP is a fuckhead, but this thread is teh awsum.

R418 It means trans identifying fuckwit eaten by a terf courgar, courgars fucking hate trannys think they are fearsomely stupid