Staying Closeted at Work

Come out and get that payout!

In my experience, people have much less respect for closeted gays in the workplace than for gay colleagues who are normal and open about it. I'm sure it depends on where you work and which field/industry you work in, but at the companies where I've worked, everyone laughed at the obvious closet cases behind their backs and wondered why the hell they didn't just come out.

I agree, R2. Everyone goofs on the guys who are obviously gay and hiding it. Just come out and people will either like you more or kind of ignore you. Whatever.

The closet can be your best friend.

I was married to a woman when I joined my job. Then, I came out to her and everyone else (except people at work) within that first year. We got a divorce and a year later, I found the man who has been my partner for the last 5 years.

I joined work, married and closeted. When I went through that crazy year of coming out and divorce, I didn't know my office colleagues well enough to tell them anything about it. So, I've never told them.

I've always felt that I'd be open whenever I'd get a new job, but I've stayed here.

Op, they know

Life is too short to live a lie. Feel sorry for you, op.

R3, what is “obviously gay”? A swish and gay voice? Because I have neither. Or is it a man who is unmarried and doesn’t have a girlfriend?

Op, there will come a point where holding it inside is more painful than telling everyone. It's a different time for each person.

If you want to come out at work, don't make a big announcement. Just mention to someone that you went on a date with a guy and like him. It will quickly spread through the office and you won't have to do all the work.

Your sexuality doesn’t belong in the workplace.

R10, so should he lie when someone asks, "What did you do last weekend?"

R9 Just mention casually that you love Barbra

It probably depends on your field and region. In the NYC professional world, nobody gives a shit. Truly.

As far as a “subtle shift”, that can happen for any reason. Maybe someone doesn’t like you because you’re a Scorpio, drive a foreign car, summer in the wrong Hampton or eat processed cheese. I was talking to a woman who wished she could eat pizza at her office; apparently the women scold anyone who doesn’t eat a healthy salad.

Do as you like, though. I wish you well.

Completely agree r2.

Trying to hide your sexuality is seen as weak and cowardly, it doesn't invite respect.

Just own it and be normal about it.

[quote]Your sexuality doesn’t belong in the workplace.

Only closet cases say things like that. How many straight people have their spouse and kids all over their kids. People advertise what their sexuality is at work all the damn time.

But WHY do I have to mention or discuss my personal life with coworkers, R9? I just don’t see the point of coming out when there are zero advantages to doing so. If anything, you are putting your job/career at risk.

It’s none of their business, period. The only quality an employee should be judged on is their personal work performance.

And I fucking hate Barbara, Cher, and all that other stereotypically gay shit.

R11 he can say he went for pizza.

Yeah... It definitely depends on the workplace and circumstances. I was only out twice, for about 3 years total. It sure feels much more comfortable to be out at work, but in some places that's just too much of a liability.

R11, he should state loudly "I do NOT discuss my personal life at work!" Because that is totally normal. Straight people never discuss their - gasp - sexuality at work.

It's so embarrassing to be closeted at work if you're surrounded by intelligent people who know what's up. They all know, and they're laughing behind your back because they know that you think you're pulling one over on them. I've seen it hundreds of times.

It's cringeworthy.

But if you're surrounded by dolts who aren't curious about the world and/or nosy, then whatever.

Op, it's irrelevant whether you love Barbra or not. It's just an easy way to hint on your homosexuality.

Let’s celebrate the closet. Let’s encourage it. Let’s sympathize with it. Let’s tell anyone who disagrees to fuck off.

It be refreshing to this thread FF’d into oblivion. It would be wonderful. A nice change. It would give me hope that gay men aren’t actually pathetic cowards. It would be wonderful. It just be...wonderful.

So two people have come in here and stated that “everyone’s knows a closet case at work and laughs at them behind their back” without providing any examples.

Don't look at me! r23

Time for a tune.

I played this at work today

If you don’t reference wife and kids in casual conversation it will be assumed you are gay. If you are single or divorced and don’t have a girlfriend the same assumption will apply. You might as well come out.

[quote] Your sexuality doesn’t belong in the workplace.

Such a tired and sad old argument. Do you think the straight people in your office should be banned from displaying pics of their partners and families? Are you offended when some straight guy at work references his wife in conversation or mentions a woman he's dating?

Closet cases have to justify to themselves why they are closet cases r28.

Doesn't it depend on how close you are to your coworkers? If you become good friends with a couple of them, why not let them know? Other folks who you simply work with, don't need to know details of your personal life.

I've probably lived through all combinations of this scenario -- out, not out, out only to work friends, etc. Not being open adds a bit of pressure to be guarded.

There were two gays in our company. One was in closet. I respected the one in the closet even though he talked about masturbating on the belly if fifty year old woman who he later married. He was a young handsome smart white thirty year old.

[quote] So two people have come in here and stated that “everyone’s knows a closet case at work and laughs at them behind their back” without providing any examples.

Since I doubt we've ever worked together, I'm not sure how/why citing examples of specific closeted colleagues whom you very likely don't know would be useful but there have been several over the years. Let's see, there was 50-something Drew, whose face, voice, mannerisms, wardrobe, and interests all screamed QUEEN, yet he loved to pretend there was nothing more thrilling that being assigned to work on a project with a bunch of younger, attractive women. And there was Peter, who practically melted into a puddle of goo whenever a hot male colleague paid attention to him, yet was always making vague references to the chicks he'd been out with over the weekend. And of course, there were a bunch of different guys and a few probable lezzies, too, who weren't necessarily "gay-acting" in any way, but were just so weirdly, awkwardly secretive about anything to do with their personal lives and weekend activities that they were either gay and hiding it, or they were all serial killers.

r18 and R27 are correct.

I am an eldergay (50) who has been out since I was a teenager (17). I have never been in a workplace where people hide their "sexuality". All of my straight coworkers have been open about their husbands and wives, fiancés, partners, and children. And I never have been closeted at work. When I worked for the federal government in DC (late-Bush, early Clinton), we had many openly gay and lesbian attorneys and administrators, and my partner came with me to our Christmas parties. No one ever treated me badly and this was 25 years ago. My husband and I have been out at both of our workplaces since we started dating - first as boyfriends, then partners, now spouses. We started dating in 2000 and moved in together in 2001, married in 2011. Do the math. That's almost 2 decades of being out at work in a relationship.

You are way behind the times and living in deep denial if you think "sexuality" has no place in the workplace. It is sad that you are living in an era that has been obsolete for decades. The only other reason your colleagues may think you're not gay is that no woman could stand you or you're too pathetic to date. If you'd rather be seen as a sad loser than gay, that's even worse.

You are correct.

Suddenly in their minds you become Jack from Will and Grace.

Do what works for you.

Many workplaces are filled to the brim with dolts, people who have never met or befriended a homosexual (really!), and I'm not about to let them know I'm a lesbian. Plus, I get routinely harrassed/hit on enough as it is whenever I start a new job, so maybe my next strategy will be to tell everyone to fuck off and no, I am not interested in sleeping with any of them.

The truth is I should not be working in a team as I resent going to the same place and seeing the same people everyday. But that's just me.

The last time I did that, a straight and married couple worker semi stalked me!!! I don't know what was going on with him but I always felt that he wasthisclose to asking me to bed... constantly sitting with me at lunch and always asking me about my romantic life. It started to big me and just before I planned to ask him why the sudden curiosity, he accepted a transfer to our South American office... I found the entire experience unsettling. And when the openly gay coworkers found out, well, they acted like Dataloungers, being extra cunty towards me. Now at my current job I discuss NOTHING!!!

Op, although you say your sexualoty has no place at work, do you go to lengths to hide it? For example if you went to pizza with your date over the weekend, do you leave out his gender when relating the story?

Doesn't that moment give you pause? No one else at your work even thinks twice when relating their weekend activities.

If you think it's not a big deal, it hurt your psychologically little by little each day

I was surprised when I came out that absolute no one gave a shit. No one.

Here I was wrapped in worry that people think about me constantly and would hate me. In fact, they wouldn't care if I suddenly died tomorrow, let alone that I'm gay.

OP, there's no real reason to come out to your co-workers under normal circumstances, because co-workers don't really give a shit about each other's private lives. But what about if there's a display of open homophobia at work, or some sort of anti-gay policy implemented?

Really, that's the only reason to come out at this point. There's a difference between not discussing your private life, and not standing up for your rights or dignity. DO stand up for your rights or dignity, if either are ever threatened.

No one cares at my office. Its no longer 1995.

I have always found in most instances if you reveal your sexuality, and stand up for yourself you won't have many problems. If people you work with see you aren't on the defensive they won't be on the defensive with you. It may take time but most straight people who've never had any sort of relationship with anyone who is gay just have to see for themselves that gays are really no different than straights in their day to day dealings. They have to be enlightened.

"Your life is your message", to re-work Gandhi's famous statement. Come out, OP.

The best part about the closest cases in this thread asserting that “sexuality doesn’t belong in the workplace” is you just know every single one of their coworkers know.

Yep, you know their coworkers are gossiping about them behind their backs r43. When you own your sexuality, it is no longer a dirty little secret.

Of course they already know op is gay. People are not stupid these days about such matter. It’s the mannerism and little things that give it away.

Even more annoying than totally closeted coworkers are those who are closeted with everyone except the out gays and who then expect us to keep their big secret. I'm not into outing people against their will, but I'm also not into lying to cover for people, especially when their so-called secret is something ridiculous that I do not keep secret about myself. If you insist on being closeted at work, then please go all the way with it and don't acknowledge your gayness to me, either.

I find that when you suggest to such people that they should just come out already, they usually have very goofy ideas about what it would mean to be out at work. Nobody's asking you to send a memo to the entire staff, introduce yourself as "John from Accounts Payable and I'm GAY!," share any details whatsoever of your sex life (please DON'T), or in any way go out of your way to mention your sexual orientation. All you need to do is be open and casual about who you are and who's in your life, the way any straight colleague is; e.g, if you have a husband/partner, put his picture on your desk; if you're going on vacation with your boyfriend, don't omit that detail when you tell coworkers about your plans.

^ ^

R45, not alone gay guys exhibit stereotypical mannerisms.

You guys sure are some ignorant, judgmental fucks.

Is there still a stigma about being gay ? At work and off work.

Most closet cases have more "tells" than they think, OP. As far as our judgmental responses go, what were you expecting when you started this thread?

Yeah I "came out" at my current job by telling a funy little anecdote about an ex-boyfriend r46, I caught the clicking in a couple people's heads when they realized the person in the story was a guy. That was it, people look at the process as a much bigger deal than they need to.

R48 / op is in denial

Gaydar is a powerful thing

I love the Mother's line in Love, Simon about holding your breathe. People know when you are open and honest and when you are withholding.

OP, you’re harboring self-hatred and homophobia. You say you’re not into “ that gay shit”. It seems as if you’re obsessed to appear as straight. Obviously, you want to stay in the closet at work. Why are you questioning whether to do so or not?

I suspect op is non white, such things only matter with minority races.

OP I think you are 100% correct. Yours is my story, in the middle of Manhattan. Magazines. Others are on staff, we all are not a close bunch, we do not band together as gays. One guy is a high-up in circulation, very open, somewhat too prissy. Several are mid-level and don't discuss sexuality. Neither did the boy in the mail room I've slept with. I rank just under MissPriss and don't think my sex life and going to The Pines or having a house in the Hamptons really concerns any at work.

Somewhat agree, R56. I'm gay, just work, don't go screaming I'm out ... all this you'r gay, announe it, shit is just stupid. Usually it's only the lower orders doing the screaming. If you want to announce your sexuality, ok, but others don't announce their religion, eating habits.

A straight person has never once in their life tried to hide their sexuality at work. But yes, those damn gays want to go "scream it" and "shit is stupid". How dare gay people just behave like normal people.

OP its best to present yourself as a confident person with integrity - human - able to love, have fun, be ethic, be a performer, respect your family, all that stuff. You don't have make friends at work or socialise or share all that much but people tend to reward other people they consider to be "like them" and to "good people". A cold closet case isn't good.

Frankly you sound like you are on the autism spectrum.

Your upbringing can determine your coming out attitude. Op may not have a liberal family or a homophobe dad.

Not being somewhat open about your personal life at work is viewed with suspicion in virutually every workplace. Concealing whether you are coupled or single, children, hometown, where you go to vacation, etc. seems underhanded to most people. Even if you do not socialize with people from work, no one trusts the person who shares nothing.

So OP can continue as he is. But he ought to realize that he is hurting himself professionally just as much by staying closeted.

Straight people constantly shove their sexuality down our throats with their talk of wedding, children, exes, etc.

People are more sophisticated now than they used to be. If you are an unmarried man who does not have a girlfriend and does not talk about his private life, people at the office know that you are gay. It does not matter if you believe that you are not stereotypically gay in any way. They still know that you are gay, and, as R61 notes, they may find something troubling in the fact that you are not willing to confide anything about your private life.

Op is obviously ashamed of being gay

r56 is full of shit. If there are out people at your workplace, then your story is not his story. Sexuality is out at your workplace. The fact that you choose to keep it private for the reasons you say – god knows what "rank under Miss Priss" means and the shot at the Pines and the Hamptons is – it sounds like you're just fucked up and taking shots at out gay men. Classy.

[quote]Op is obviously ashamed of being gay

Everyone who is trying to pull this whole "private life" "no sexuality at work" bullshit is obviously ashamed of being gay. It is honestly sad that they can't see their own self-loathing.

Fine, you guys got me. I fully admit I am ashamed of my orientation. Don’t blame me. Blame my nasty, homophobic mother when she found me looking st gay porn as a kid, and the people who bullied me at school when it got out that I liked a guy.

I just can’t handle that level of rejection again. Being closeted is very painful, but being looked at as a freak and shunned at work is even worse.

What year are you posting from? 1950?

OP R67 No one will think you are a freak if you come out, you might be pleasantly surprised at how supportive people will be if you are honest with everyone.

I called it

OP, chances are your coworkers already think you are a freak BECAUSE you are so secretive/dishonest about your life.

Op, eventually you will realize that no one cares enough about your life to reject you. In fact they might think you’re interesting because you’re gay

And r56 and r57 are classic examples of people with a twisted, absurd idea of what it means to be openly gay at work. No one expects you to SCREAM about it or share info about your sex life. All it really means it that when a coworker idly says, "I'm going out Montauk for the long weekend; how about you?" you respond with "Cool; I'm going to the Pines." No big deal, and nothing that requires you to be excessively friendly with colleagues.

[quote] The only quality an employee should be judged on is their personal work performance.

While that may be true, OP, it's never how things actually work in the real world. Colleagues are always going to judge you on personality and social skills, too. That doesn't mean you need to be BFFs with your coworkers but if you skulk around acting like you've got something to hide, people will find it off-putting. If you're open about being gay and treat your own life like it's perfectly normal, others will respond accordingly.

I agree with OP, but it does depend on where you work and the individuals there. I was out at work in Nevada and my story did NOT end well. Manager was a bizarre homophobe who tried to hide it but couldn't even though company supported diversity. When I started closing in on her homophobic and illegal requests and comments, she had me fired. You do have to be careful.

OP, R67: I am close to your age and I, personally, have never made some grand announcement about being gay at work, but all of my colleagues and coworkers know I am gay. I would never go to the trouble to hide that part of me; it's too much work and way too exhausting. I am not stereotypically gay-acting--though nothing wrong with men who are--but it naturally comes out while speaking to a coworker about a boyfriend or whatever. Also, I'm a medical provider, so my coworkers are professional, usually progressive and having a gay colleague isn't some oddity or rare thing. But seriously, you need to work on being ashamed of your sexuality. Why would you ever give someone the power, including your own mother, of making you feel less-than for something that isn't wrong, unnatural or immoral? You say you cannot handle that level of "rejection" again--and as most in this thread have said, it's very unlikely to happen--but even if it did, then what? The world would still turn and your life would continue so their ignorant opinion should have no bearing on your life; allowing anyone to make you feel ashamed of being gay is giving them way too much power over you. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

My worry is these days if your age above 30 and no one knows a thing about a colleague personal life as in partners, or boy/girlfriend. As people tend to be a lot more open and accustomed to gays and bi's these days. They will start to think of darker explainations for the void

My other half has been in a new job just over a year, I know hasn't talked about me to workmates so that cuts out a lot of info about his general social life. Open to family and friends but worried about being open at a new job and company but not pretended he goes on dates or attached to women. At the huge Christmas party, where partners can go too, we'd planned I'd go. But I couldn't as got sick.

It's a big company with a few other openly gay people at different levels. I get worried for him that although he is well liked, people never hearing anything about his "personal life" = me ( his partner of 7 years). Will think he's a pedophile or something

R76 maybe he’s just ashamed of you

I'm not out at work. They don't know anything about my life. I'm a very private person. I keep my personal life separate from my work life. I always have, even before I was out, and still dating the opposite sex.

OP, do what feels right to you. You don't owe anyone any explanations.

I think whoever said coworkers think OP is on the spectrum is right.

But if you are comfortable with that, okay. I just think that in many professions such a rep would be a liability.

As a straight male, it is easy to identify a gay male but impossible to identify lesbian. I would love for a lesbian to come out because I am fascinated by them and I bet they could learn to love me.

Please, just stay in the closet. I don't care if I know you are gay, just stay in the closet. Gayness is not a problem to me if u stay in closet and never date men. Male gayness is not something I want to deal with. It's like my local McDonald's who hired girl with burned melted face. Sorry, but I stopped going even though they had pizza at that time.

R19, I don't laugh at closeted gays. I think it is right to be closeted . Don't ask, don't tell. .

I think it’s just so much easier on my psyche to be out, so I made sure I referenced it even during my interviews for the job.

Why would I want to work some place that doesn’t accept me as I am. I know I’m skilled enough to be attractive for many companies. I chose a company that wanted me as I am. Everyone’s happy

For those who are closeted, You have only one life to live and you want to live a lie ? Gee!

I've always found it strange that Jews have such a strong interest in getting gays to identify themselves to the public at large -- Jews who Anglicize their names, Anglicize their noses, rush to marry WASPs in the forlorn hope that their kids won't look so Jewy, and who insist they are atheists.

Gays don't owe explanations to anyone, especially not at the strange behest of Jews.

You are not closeted. You just think that you do not have to discuss who you are attractive too at your workplace. This is your personal information and it is up to you to discuss it. If you participate in political or social movements, you have this right and your work place should not be able to discriminate against you. Of course, your significant other and children should have rights, just like the straight ones.

Fake straight dude at r81, when you go to your non-existent job, do you maintain the same "don't ask don't tell" policy about your own sexuality that you expect from gay men? After all, the gay dudes in your pretend office might not want to deal with your ersatz male straightness or imagine you getting it on with all those lesbians you plan to lure into your bed.

Guys, doesn't it totally depend on the particular work culture? I don't believe there is a one size fits all answer to this question.

I'm 57. In my 20s, I worked an entry level position at a Fortune 100 company. A couple of close friends knew I was gay. But one day, I came to work and the whole atmosphere had shifted. I hadn't come out. One of my 'friends' had outed me to my team-mates. Most of my team avoided making eye contact with me, while one started openly harassing me. Eventually my other team members grew comfortable with me, and could joke with me, but that one bitch made my life miserable for years until I lost my temper and walked out. My city didn't offer any legal protection for gay people back then (they do now) and a couple of my bosses told me there was nothing they could do for me, since the company didn't include gays in their non-discrimination policy (they do now). But I'll never forget that sinking feeling that day I showed up for work and no one would even look me in the eye. I only regret not immediately speaking up for myself, and letting the chips fall where they may.

Now, I work for a different Fortune 100 company that has a very clear non-discrimination policy. I've worked for the same company for 25 years. I have lots of real personal friendships that I've made over the years, and of course, they all know I'm gay. There have actually been a couple of times that I've felt I had to come out to co-workers, since their conversations indicated they didn't know. But when I have come out, no one's really given me a negative reaction.

R88 is correct. Remember, in much of the US, there are still no protections for LGBT people. Most large companies have non-discrimination policies. But what about someone working in some backwards state for a small company? Remember, we just had that thread about that EMT in NEW YORK who was horribly harassed by his co-workers. At least he can sue (and will probably win).

OP - I hate all the OP bashing based on other people's experiences. Every office dynamic is different. Obviously, the person who works there is the only one who can judge best what is right for him or her.

It's BS that others are laughing behind OP's back -- they are just projecting their own fears of possibly being gay.

So I support OP and whatever he feels is best. At the moment he is "closeted" (I hate that expression -- how about "private").

He will know when and if he wants to come out.

[quote]They all know, and they're laughing behind your back because they know that you think you're pulling one over on them. I've seen it hundreds of times.

No you haven't because that never happens. Unless you work at McDonalds or another place where teenagers are hired.

I feel for OP even if he does tote around shame-laced baggage from his mum and childhood. R88 sounds wise, as do other sympathetic responders here. Each of us has to make our own choices, and some of us are much, much more private than others. It sounds as if OP may be one these types. I could easily imagine if one were shy, private, and a bit shame-faced about being gay it would be torturous to broach this subject with co-workers. OP I hope you find at least one person in your work environment you eventually feel comfortable enough to become friends, or share more of your life, for your own happiness. If you are completely content closing off your work world from your private life, that's fine too if it works for you.

Troll(s) showed up at around 3-4am CST. Wonder why.

Where are you R93? It was only 2:00 Central when you made your curious post.

I don't ask women if they're lesabian - stop asking me if I'm a gay guy.

In top jobs and where bonding is involved nobody would trust you unless you open up about yourself,

[quote]It's so embarrassing to be closeted at work if you're surrounded by intelligent people who know what's up. They all know, and they're laughing behind your back because they know that you think you're pulling one over on them. I've seen it hundreds of times.

But how could they possibly know? I haven't told them or dropped any hints for them.

Does feeling comfortable coming out at work depend on which industry do you work in, OP?

Years ago I worked with a guy in IT who didn't really meet any of the gay stereotypes: he was a burly, lumpen, dishevelled, quite non-communicative guy with an extremely messy desk. He was also very shy around women. He lived with his 'cousin' and never talked about his personal life except when he would go on vacation (always with his cousin).

All the straight people in the office would snigger at the 'cousin' bit and take bets as to whether or not the guy was gay. We never did find out, but if he was, he would have had no problem.

I've certainly never said I was gay nor even hinted, so how would anyone know?

Depends on so many specifics. I'm a gay man and work in finance. I've worked in offices with lots of out gay guys and lovely tolerance. I've also worked in offices where the policy seemed to be "don't ask don't tell." The attitudes start at the top - the top level executives set the tone ... I personally don't care that much. Yeah, it's nice to have an open work environment it's not a deal breaker for me. I'm sure people know I'm gay - I'm older and not married to the woman - but I generally keep my personal life to myself. I don't feel disrespected or disadvantaged. I'm getting promoted and getting my raises. I have some nice work friends and I like what I do - but I mostly don't socialize with coworkers out of work. Everyone is different and this works for me.

When coworkers wonder if you’re gay, that’s the big topic of conversation behind your back. Once you’re out, that is-he or isn’t-he obsession ends immediately.

R28 Give it a rest. Work is for work.

[quote} In top jobs and where bonding is involved nobody would trust you unless you open up about yourself r96

Bullshit. On top jobs expertise it the driving factor. You can bond very nicely without getting overly personal.

In shit jobs with a pack mentality you can only be out if the group is young (40 and younger) and forward-thinking. Doesn't work among older types, doesn't work among conservative types. Yes, these types exist and they tend to exist in shit companies, not all of us have dream jobs.

Also, there are countries where you would be insane to be out at work.

[quote]I have seen lots of evidence that, depending on the field or the company, publicly disclosing one’s sexuality can have adverse repercussions on advancement and promotion.

Read the room, OP.

I came out at work once because I worked with an extremely close knit group of people. We all hung out together. We all talked one another all day. We all always got our work done.

No one cared at all ... until ... the company reorganized and we were moved to an open office next to another group of people.

Once that happened I ended up working "near" a religious zealot who was a supervisor for another group of people. (I was in charge of my team but she was technically over me and had been there for 20 years.) She was preaching about something or other involving marriage and named a man she knew. How lovely their marriage was. I also knew him and mentioned I did: he was a doctor. I added the man had recently passed, she was shocked. I added he was super nice to everyone and I mentioned my partner and I. She asked for his wife's phone number. I gave it to her. The end.

Her assistant ran over to me the next morning before she got in and said I shouldn't have said that. She told me she was very religious, did not like gay people and to watch out.

A week later I was gone. Zero problems before that. Lots of praise for my work. Everyone was shocked on my team including my own supervisor who called me to ask why I hadn't been at work since he was away mid-week and his office was in another building. I explained that I was fired but no one gave me a reason, they just terminated my access codes. He said he'd look into it. I got an email from him later on saying he had nothing to do with it and he doesn't know why but if I needed a reference he'd give it to me.

(And I believed him since if I was fired and he knew he wouldn't have called me and he wouldn't have contacted me again later ... it would have been silence.)

Luckily my sister is a lawyer. They offered me my job back within a month in a different department. They claimed it was a mix-up.

I refused. Never again.

Long story short: it seems people are okay with it until the wrong person finds out but if they do there are some defenses against it.

Yes, does depend on your job.It is a bad idea to come out at a shitty job. You notice that homophobic comments are constant with them, and NO they do not know who is gay. The big homophobes are the most clueless. And yes there is a big shift if you come out. Young people in general are less homophobic unless they come from a homophobi country, , then they are loudly homophobic.

I work in a very conservative industry that unfortunately depends on personal relationships to advance (or even stay) in the field. As I was coming up the ranks, about half of my supervisors were extremely homophobic and tried to ruin my career. Fortunately the other half were accepting, and their recommendations (combined with my excellent outcomes) were enough for me to advance. The homophobic ones really made my life miserable for many years and did everything possible to prevent me from staying in this field.

Now I have very few individuals to whom I must report or be accountable, and none of them are homophobic. I am lucky to have made it, and I can see why others may choose to stay closeted.

I always believed honesty is the best policy, but you don’t always owe it to assholes to divulge your personal information.

A lot of people give gays a hard time for being misogynistic or too judgmental of straight men, but after being the target of overt homophobia by heteros, I really have to make an effort to treat the “frat boy” and “girly girl” types fairly. It is my natural tendency to give advantages to other gays, “softer” straight guys, and women who tone down their sexuality. I know it’s not right, and I make a real effort to treat all of those who report to me equally. It is difficult after my prior experiences.

I wish more lesbians would participate. I love hot lesbians. It's ironic but secretly I think lesbians want to be with men.

I haven’t come out because I’m fat and short.

Good lord r85. We can't have any thread free of Nazis these days.

R108 " It is my natural tendency to give advantages to other gays, “softer” straight guys, and women who tone down their sexuality"

You know what, I do exactly the same, and that's just because these are the people I feel most comfortable with. At work, in friendship, in any other situation. The types you have described are quite simply the non-aggressive types. They're often smart and tend to be kind, low-drama and fun to be around. Why would I want to be around anybody else?

Wait, actually I don't even enjoy the company of "loud" gays & lesbians. I'm mostly comfortable around people who tone down their sexuality - it's something you want to be obvious about once you know and appreciate someone pretty well, regardless of any actual attraction. Not all of us are whores, darling!

r108 / r112 I hope you are deeply ashamed of yourselves - enough to get therapy and to realize you are part of the problem.

r108 at least seems aware of it and I applaud you for that but to still claim you give advantages to some gay people and not others and blame it on homophobes is disgusting. I'm dying to know what "conservative" industry you work because there is no such thing.

r112, the fact that you describe yourself as a "librarian" type and brand people who don't "tone down their sexuality" shows that you have deeper problems than the closet. Deal with your own sexual hangups with your therapist.

[quote]You know what, I do exactly the same, and that's just because these are the people I feel most comfortable with. At work, in friendship, in any other situation.

Like R112 and R108 mentioned this is so accurate. The people that helped me the most professionally were other gay men and lesbians. I also have done the same thing for those that cross my path. I don't think it's much different from any other profession: conservatives favoring conservatives, young people favoring young people, etc.

Years ago, I was on a panel speaking to those just out of college about whether to be openly gay at work. At the time (20 years ago) I said, it's likely better not to bring it up unless you are such an activist, it's all over your CV.

Recently, I was on a similar panel. I said definitely be out and open. If the company doesn't want you, it's their loss. Find a company that accepts you as you are. It's not worth the energy trying to constantly edit yourself year after year to make others more comfortable.

R113 assuming you're not trolling - the workplace is not a place to be sexually expressive, IMO. That some people choose to bore others with their fantasies or sexually inviting behaviour while at work is their own problem. Between friends, while out having fun - that's different. Work is just work. Why bring sex into it? Let's forget those who do are usually the least attractive ones.

R116, no one is asking anyone to be sexually expressive. People are saying that just acknowledging that you're gay and have a social life with other gay men make life much easier.

I agree with both your statements, R115. And it depends on context. Some workplaces, some areas, some countries even are no more progressive than they were 20 years ago, in some cases 50+ years ago even. That's a reality but apparently some posters choose to ignore it.

Realize that there are people over 50 in the workforce who have NEVER knowingly spoken with a homosexual, let alone befriended one. I'm saying knowingly. And these people can make your life hell while they struggle for "acceptance" (or not) should you be a fool to come out in their presence.

Realize also that in many workplaces half the workforce is made of barely literate, very limited people who in many cases also have personality disorders. Why on earth you should have to come out to the trolls you endure in order to pay for rent is beyond me, but whatever.

Work is not a social club. Wish it were, but it's not.

PLEASE get therapy r113. God you need help.

Not being in the closet at work is not being "sexually expressive" or "sexually inviting behavior". What is wrong with you to even say such a thing? Who hurt you?

3 months ago I had to run to supplies to get more pens because we needed them NOW to give out to respondants and had nothing left because "someone" had taken all those we had precisely for that purpose - the co-worker in question shrugged that pens "disappear". Who cares that we can't work efficiently because half our supplies are missing. I get that her family is poor, but this is ridiculous. Anyway, these are the people you may end up working with. Sharing office space is already an imposition.

Seriously, a lot of jobs are shit jobs with retarded people/former juvenile delinquents as colleagues. I do not see why I should school them in addition to babysitting them.

Threads like this are a good reminder that a large percentage of this board is still in the closet. Though if you look through the bitterness and self-loathing you often see on this board that should be obvious.

I have been in and out of the closet my whole life. I was out to my brother and sister, and to a few school friends from the age of 15. I was fully out as a student between the ages of 18 and 24, then only out to my friends but not at work. At 29 I was in a company where it was easy to be out, so I was. A few years later I was out for about 2-3 years, not to the whole organisation (1000+ people) but to those that I got along with in my team.

Like many women, I have often been the target of sexual harrassment in the workplace, mostly from managers and sometimes also by male colleagues. Sadly, once or twice by female managers. That said, I don't like working in an office because there is something very unpleasant in seeing the same people day in, day out. It's like a marriage that you never chose. Also, I am a communist.

I think it’s fine to be closeted at work. Most posters here probably work in artistic, social or service industries, but things are very different in STEM careers. I’ve come across approximately 4-5 gay people at my jobs, and they were always 50+ year old lesbians out on the mfg floor. I can’t say that I’ve ever met another gay engineer or scientist.

[quote]Most posters here probably work in artistic, social or service industries

Yes of course, that must be it....

[quote]but things are very different in STEM careers

In what way? Most educated people really don't care you are gay, you don't have to hide it from them.

[quote] I can’t say that I’ve ever met another gay engineer or scientist

That's sad. I know many.

R124 "Most educated people"

That's the thing, a lot of people are not educated, and they still work. And if you are not in a career and only do one shit job after the other, these are the people you work with. I get that the finer people will have no problem with my being gay, but these finer people I never meet at work. I see them at concerts, shows, etc. In my social life. But not at work.

And I don't make 6 figures, either. I just filed my taxes last week and my total income for 2017 was barely 10K, so there you have it.

A few years ago I had dinner with a gay friend and his new, serious boyfriend. At some point apropos nothing the boyfriend (who came from a very comfortable background) said "oh my parents have always been very accepting of my being gay", as if that was a badge of honor. No, dude, you were lucky and it just made your life easier. Waaay easier.

That's what gay scientist above sounds like. It's cool and lucky to be in a great environment at work. Don't assume everyone is as lucky and privileged as you are.

I am well aware not everyone works in that type of environment, I only brought that up to specifically reply to the poster who tried to peddle his "but everything is different in STEM, no one could be gay in a STEM workplace" bullshit.

The true issue in all of this is Universal Basic Income. Seems to me if you work in a great career, that's one thing. If you work because you have to pay your bills, then I am all in favour of Universal Basic Income which should solve all our work-related problems.

Of course, then the question would become: are you out to your neighbours? Well, depends on their education and personality! Not to the serial killers and alcoholics, I'm not!

[quote] Threads like this are a good reminder that a large percentage of this board is still in the closet.

They are also a good reminder that a large percentage of this board are FAILURES in life—working in places where most employees are personality disordered and barely literate (of course, that describes many DLers themselves), earning little more than 10K annually, and apparently living among serial killers and alcoholics.

Everyone in the STEM workplace is Asian. They don't have sex

I don't see my professional lack of achievement as a failure - like I said, I am in communist and have zero interest in working for corporate. I believe all those who choose not to work should be handed Universal Basic Income to pursue personal projects like travel and yodelling.

Actually R131, I once had an Asian female co-worker who had her own website as a fantasy-dominatrix model. She often left work to go chase Pokemon in the surrounding areas, then returned furious if she hadn't caught them.

I was closeted at my jobs for most of my life. I progressed far because I was good and because I was seen as one of the boys.

If I had to do it all over again, however, I would not have been closeted. Way too much damage on me emotionally

Of course I would prefer not to be closeted! I would also prefer to have a fulfilling career. Life is life... la la, la lala...

R91, the truth is that the teenagers of today would NOT laugh behind someone's back for being gay.

Young people have grown up with the "Gay/Straight Alliance" at H.S. and "Heather Has Two Mommies" and being someone being gay is not a big deal to them.

Well, yeah, I don't talk about sex in the workplace, because not only is it not work related, it could arguably get you in trouble. We are constantly being dragged into training sessions that demand that we say absolutely nothing that could ever suggest we were making a sexual remark or making anyone else uncomfortable.

Sometimes I feel like the adults in that episode of the Twilight Zone where Billy Mumy was all powerful and everyone was afraid to offend him.

But even if that were not the case, I wouldn't talk to people I do work for, or who do work for me, about sex, any more than I want them to tell me that they strap their wife down and spank her ass red every night.

Well, goody for you, r137, but no one in this thread has suggested that you SHOULD talk about sex at work.

Ok well, I think it's pretty obvious I'm gay. I don't pretend I'm not, but I also don't wear rainbow pins or wear a t shirt saying "I'm so fucking gay."

Not sure if that makes me a TRAITOR or not.

R138, no one is suggesting that folks talk about sex at work.

Aren't we talking about being free to mention one's partner at work without referring to said partner as a "cousin" or "friend"?

You are the only one on this thread who sounds like a FAILURE, R130.

Well, that's different. Yes, I freely discuss that.

Since we are talking about workplace, I feel that while the co-workers of today may be more accepting of an "out" colleague, the technology of today makes it easier to keep one's private life private.

Older folks like me will remember that in the 1980s, a firm often had a receptionist who forwarded all of the phone calls and even took messages for lots of employees. (No voice-mail!) And no e-mail either! A receptionist was a person twho knew a lot about everyone's private life.

R130, you must be joking. Or perhaps you are new here.

DLers are among the most literate and articulate of internet users in this age.

[quote] DLers are among the most literate and articulate of internet users in this age.

Hahaha; good one, r144.

[quote] I feel that while the co-workers of today may be more accepting of an "out" colleague, the technology of today makes it easier to keep one's private life private.

It's the reverse R143. Most people under a certain age have a Facebook, Instagram, Linked-In or Twitter and if you don't have one, you're looked at as if something is wrong with you. (I hate them all.)

Although people are getting smarter. Younger folks in their 20s and younger have been adopting double online presences. You have one you allow the world to see and the other you keep for just your personal friends. Usually if a co-worker or employer finds one they will stop searching for the other one.

[quote]Well, that's different. Yes, I freely discuss that.

R142, yes. I'm not sure anyone here has been arguing that you should be able to do more than feel free to mention you and your partner went to a wine tasting this weekend after Bob tells you that he and his wife had his grandkids.

[quote] It's cool and lucky to be in a great environment at work. Don't assume everyone is as lucky and privileged as you are.

It's not merely luck; it's a matter of r124 having chosen to pursue, and likely work hard at, an education and career in science and to go after jobs that offer good work environments. By the same token, your posts indicate that you've deliberately chosen a series of shit jobs because of your communist beliefs and desire to avoid the corporate world. That's your business, obviously, but you can't fairly say that the gay scientist enjoys a better work environment and more enlightened colleagues than you do purely because of dumb luck and unearned privilege.

I work VERY HARD at my hobbies!

I didn't pursue a career in science because it was a field mostly invested by douchebags, not surprising since it was overwhelmingly male-oriented. No, thank you! Pretty girls and effeminate guys for me, I chose the humanities... Had fun in my youth, still do. Work is not something I do much of, I'll admit. Money is definitely not a priority. I have a garden, I don't care. Also, I eat great food, look 10 years younger (this is DL after all) and forgot what I was going to say! Oh, yes: work is for the cogs!

r113 is right on target. I have no idea what r116 and r119 are blathering about (r119 must have replied to the wrong post).

r116 this has nothing to do with being "sexually expressive". When straight people let us know they have spouses, boyfriends, girlfriends, etc., no one thinks they're coming on to the world.

You have sexual issues, clearly.

R146, of course, you are correct!! My bad.

[quote]of course, you are correct!! My bad.

This is the nicest exchange I've had on Datalounge in the past decade R150/R143. Thank you!

The closet people are fucking over those of us that aren't. And sometimes we get the lumps and they avoid them.

They probably have figured it out OP. You are only kidding yourself.

I wouldn't want to lie about being with a woman or being alone. It's so hard to keep track of lies and very embarrassing if you're caught in one.

R146, lol. you are so welcome!

As I said, I am an old fart. I was only remembering the pre-email/pre voice mail days of office receptionists, and was ignoring the whole FB / Instagram culture of today's young folk.

You are wise and completely right OP. Workplace is Workplace. Your private life is just that. Private. There is so much pressure on gay people to ' come out'. It's completely homophobic. Many women NEVER speak about their husbands or children. You would think they are single. What you do at home is NOBODY's business at work.

R156, true, but in many workplaces, the water cooler culture is intense.

And Christmas parties to which plus ones were invited used to be a big deal.

You have to resist these stupid things and be professional. Boss pays for your work, they don't buy your life. You don't have to socialize or attend fucking parties. Working has one purpose: bring in for your personal life. Not the other way round

[quote]Many women NEVER speak about their husbands or children

Putting in all caps doesn't make it more true. Anyone who has ever left their house before knows this is bullshit.

R159 you are a vile, foul, disgusting human being. I don't even want to debate with you. OP, resist these people. They don't mean well

Again, my best to you OP. After reading more negative judgemental crap heaped on you, was feeling obliged to post more support for your choice. We can all be gay in our own way. Nothing wrong with flying under the radar unless you countenance and allow for anti-gay bigotry or discrimination at your workplace; only then can you be accused of being some sort of traitor.

I agree, OP. It’s nobody’s fucking business. The end.

There's something so sad about people screaming "it's nobody's business" when it comes to mundane personal information. I can guarantee you no straight person has ever hid the fact that he or she is married based on "work is work" and "it's nobody's business".

People are social; workplaces are social. That doesn't mean I hang out with my coworkers but if someone says "how was your weekend?" I don't take it as an invasion of privacy. Neither does any sane person.

You obviously miss the point that it is his own choice and HIS LIFE & JOB R163. Stop being so militant. Freedom means different things to each of us. FREEDOM includes CHOICE.

Calm yourself, r164. No one is trying to take away the OP's FREEDOM to CHOOSE being in the closet. Doesn't mean r163 can't comment on how sad it is.

How is anything I said "militant"? And I didn't say he can't do whatever he wants, just that I find it sad. And I find you sad too - your sadness manifests in anger and all caps.

Wow, you poor sad bitch. It's 2018. COME OUT. Or live a coward's life. Period.

The US is a right-wing country. Unless OP lives in NYC or CA, most of the evangelical people who know him will talk about throwing him off a roof.

Some of the people in NYC and CA want to throw gay people off the roof, too.

People on here saying they are completely out in every situation are about as believable as people who use the the DL gay attractiveness 1-10 scale.

What does that mean "every situation"? Being out does not mean loudly announcing you're gay every time you enter a store, restaurant, etc. It just means not hiding it; not changing your behavior so people won't know.

You seem really invested in making being out some big ceremonial to-do, when really it's just about authenticity.

Some of the most out and proud guys change their tone very quickly depending on who's around.

Oh, you mean like in a situation that might be dangerous, R172? Yes, how dare they.

R166, R163, R165 sorry my caps were not meant to yell at you, but rather to clarify. I am actually quite calm though, don't worry; I'm in no way sad or closeted myself either. I just don't get what the big deal is suggesting he is making the wrong choice or a lesser choice.

I'm just saying people don't always practice what they preach in terms of coming out. r173

If all the straight co-workers were living such authentic lives, half of them wouldn't hesitate to tell their workmates about their bisexual tendencies.

Touché R176

Oh, R175, you are pathetic. (Not because you're closeted - I have no idea if you're closeted or not)

I'm the same person in real life as when I'm anonymous on the internet r178. Very humble and gay if that is what you call pathetic. I'm sure you are just as magnificent as you type. You are probably everything Tom Cruise wishes he could be. Hats off to you.

What 171 said. Of course no one is out in EVERY situation because in many situations of daily life—i.e., fleeting interactions with random people you will probably never see again—it just doesn't come up. But it's sad as hell if living openly is such a foreign concept to you that you can't imagine someone being out to everyone they actually know and deal with regularly: friends, family, coworkers, neighbors, etc.

Some of you condescending ones must live in a bubble. Some people work in homophobic-majority workplaces. Why mention to a bunch of homophobic dummies that you are gay... Makes as much sense as telling them you like Criterion edition DVDs. It means nothing to them and you will only become a target for their stupidity and insecurity. The point is not to make your work life worse.

Whenever guys who work in the construction industry tell me they are not out I make no judgements about them.

OP, I read upthread, “do what’s right for you”, and that’s good advice.

Recently, I was in a new environment, and after I made clear that I was Gay, I was frozen-out by two different, unrelated parties. It was like turning a water spigot off. Of course, it was done in a way that was perfectly legal. Nobody was calling me “fag” or anything.

Likewise, there will always be others who’s private contempt for you is completely hidden and who will nonetheless affect your work assignments and compensation.

One time, I had a friend that others did not know I was friendly with. She told me exactly who was undermining me, why, and how.

So many idiots posting here. Being out means also using common sense. You don't need to be confrontational or obnoxious around dangerous situations. Self-preservation is the key. You lay low when it serves YOUR safety interests. But being out really means being comfortable with who you are. Period. If someone asks if you are gay, then you do get to decide if and what you tell them. It would depend upon why they are asking (the way I handle it, that is). If someone is simply being nosy, I might be rude right back and ask "Aaaaaand that would be any of your business WHY?" Which sounds a bit bitchy. Perhaps "Why are you asking?" or something along those lines. Almost no one ever asks that question to me, though, because it is a rude question to begin with unless they have a romantic interest in your or some other sincere reason (maybe they have a single friend?). Sexual orientation is not a legal category on a job form or a question for an interview, either.

If you work in a homophobic place, then you should consider where you work. You can change your job but you cannot change other people and it is foolish (and sometimes dangerous) to try. Yes, there might be legal protections in place for you but do you really want to "win that battle and lose the war" in terms of getting someone fired or sanctioned? It will just make it worse for you later. There are many places where it is cool to be gay, where diversity is celebrated, where gay people fit in. If you are not in one of those places, then you should think about your life, your choice of job, your geography. Yes, sometimes it is hard or impossible to just "up and move" somewhere else or to change jobs but you should always keep your wits about you and use your feelers to get a sense of your environment. It's not an all or nothing proposition, even in 2018.

R81, I love you. For your reference to Criterion Edition DVDs.

What R181/R182/R183 say cannot be discounted. I just wish other gay men would stop branding people pathetic, sad, or whatever because they are not in a similar situation. Why gloat and one-up? Just be grateful being out to everyone works so very well for you in your work environment. Self preservation and perceived protection by remaining private does not essentialy equal inauthentic person from A Jungian perspective. As long as OP is true to himself and his partner, and has his own realm of confidents he can be out with, it probably works fine for him.

Sorry, it's R181 I love for his reference to Criterion Edition dvds.

R80, on behalf of lesbians who are very tired of those straight guys who say they could “turn a lesbian”: fuck off.

You ever get fucked up the ass before? How do you know you might not like it? Maybe you should give it a try.

[quote]but things are very different in STEM careers.

Yeah, it's far easier to come out and be openly gay because in the STEM fields good talent is hard to find. They've led the way on being inclusive and accepting. All of the major STEM corporations have a gay organization, march in Pride parades, have diversity committees, offered domestic partnership benefits when same-sex marriage was illegal, etc.

[quote]You guys sure are some ignorant, judgmental fucks.

Oh, the irony, coming from the OP....

If you're partnered, then put out a photo of the two of you together. Then you won't have to say a word. Those who are cool with it will ask your about your partner.

I like where r183 is coming from. I tried getting into the police force and passed all my exams and physical and self defence training. I was openly gay and got constantly undermined and wasn't accepted because I "couldn't get along with people". I was sniped at without being directly called a faggot. The cops are great at being fake politically correct.

[quote] R189: Yeah, it's far easier to come out and be openly gay because in the STEM fields good talent is hard to find. They've led the way on being inclusive and accepting. All of the major STEM corporations have a gay organization, march in Pride parades, have diversity committees, offered domestic partnership benefits when same-sex marriage was illegal, etc.

I worked at Engineering/Construction companies; Software companies, and IT at Financial companies. Only at the Software companies was being Out not obviously detrimental to ones career. People who are bigots don't care if their company sufffers as long as they don’t have to work with people they find icky. I can’t imagine what R189 is thinking from their nonsense.

[quote] One time, I had a friend that others did not know I was friendly with. She told me exactly who was undermining me, why, and how.

I should add, I had no idea so many people were talking about me, in such bigoted ways. And this was in STEM. Nobody cared that that I did good work. They only cared that I was Gay. Finally, I have no doubt that my friend might have kept the most offensive things from me out of kindness, so it might have been even worse than I knew.

R188 You are correct to call out R80... apparently we have a new "I wish to fuck lesbians" troll.

I don’t think you have to advertise your sexuality but don’t hide it either. I’ve worked with a lot of people who were single. My default assumption was they are straight, but they never said anything to confirm that.

Yeah, lying is worse than anything. Doing backflips to be evasive is not good, either. Either go with “I can’t believe you’re asking me...” or “that’s personal”, etc.; or just be out.

I agree with you r196, if you can find an occupation where being gay is not controversial. In many situations survival is a matter of "hide it or pride it".

[quote]I can’t imagine what R189 is thinking from their nonsense.

I'm thinking that you're full of shit, of course, and that I have 30 years of experience in this field to back up what I write.

Never thought about it once. One time I mentioned I was going to Disneyworld. My co-worker asked me if my wife liked going, I just replied "husband.:" He looked at me and said "Oh, cool."

So that's the trick, saying one is off to Disneyworld, and they'll assume you're straight OP! (JK before everyone freaks needlessly)

[quote] R199: I'm thinking that you're full of shit, of course, and that I have 30 years of experience in this field to back up what I write.

R199, all that tells me is you have 30 years of experience with being wrong.

LOL... Uh-huh, right. Whatever you say. Thank you for your contribution to this thread. We are ever so enriched by it.

OP, someone knows. Even if you don’t think so, someone does know.

I work with several closeted men. In no way have they acted in a stereotypical manner that reveals their sexuality. But there are tiny, micro behavioral observations that I’ve made, that makes me convinced I’m right.

Older people know. By older, I mean over 40. Women know for sure. That’s why they don’t hit on you.

Gayness is a medical condition without a therapy. It's depressing that u blame white people for your condition. Whites r in trouble. We don't have the luxury of feeding those who stab trump in the back. Just because gay sex gives you pleasure does not make it right. Just because being in the closet causes anxiety does not give u the right to burden us with your problem. Go see a therapist. I guarantee that your parents don't want to know. It's about being a God damn adult.

Gay is medical condition.

Straights do not know who is gay. They really do not.

Is that Mike Pence or Lipstick Alley at R205 and R206?

Nobody knows, I can assure you R204. Michele doesn't even know. She doesn't hit on me, but that's because I'm homely, not because I'm in any closet.

Stop pretending that gay is normal. Stop attacking whites and trump. It's nobody's fault you were born gay. Control your rage. Don't become serial killer like ted Kaminski.

R207, oh yes we do. And we are fine if you stay deep in closet.

Stay in the closet. It's honestly better if no one knows you're gay because your workload won't double and your pay won't be halved.

Some straights may guess, but most truly don’t know. Oh, and being gay is perfectly normal.

What the fuck are these “tiny behavioral observations” that you refer to R204? Everyone keeps mentioning this and then not elaborating on what the hell they are talking about.

Just because you’re a gay man and have finely attuned gaydar, doesn’t mean most straight people do.

No women hit on me at work because my office is like 90% men. And the women that do work there aren’t attractive at all. And no, the few women at my office don’t hit on any of the guys.

To all of you who are supportive of my decision, thank you.

R205, R206, R210, R211 - more proof about Trump being "the best friends to the gays"?

You're better off waiting until retirement like the eldergays, tbh.

I despise the insincere expressions this man apes, as in R215. The only sincere look he affects are the various scowls he uses. He’s like Mr. Potter, without the integrity and gravitas.

Funny story. Straight woman here.

I used to have a co-worker who was considered handsome. He worked in a different office from me. We were on a friendly basis, and would joke around a lot. One of the women in the office would joke around that we were an item.

Well, this was in the 80s, so this handsome co-worker would talk about his "roommate" but nothing more than that.

So, yeah, lots of straight folks have no Gaydar.

There is another guy at work who is so much more obvious than I, plus I never really had occasion to talk about my life like that in any reasonable context. I don't act any different; its just been a nonissue.

Don't be self-conscious, OP. People at work aren't worth the time -- just be yourself in your real life; that's where there is no room for compromise or closets.

And if you have any obnoxious extroverted coworkers, just smile in pity at them and they'll keep talking about/to themselves -- they don't care about you.

Why people would want to work somewhere where they constantly have to edit themselves? Unless you were making seven figures it just doesn't seem worth it.

[quote] [R199], all that tells me is you have 30 years of experience with being wrong.

Or, y'know, maybe the two of you work in different cities and for different companies and have had different experiences.

The homophobics and lesbian-turners on this thread confirm why in certain environments it's best not to come out.

Fun story: ten years ago (I was 29, I'm female) I met a guy who was 25 and whose past-time he told me grinning was to invade internet forums and shout out f*gg*t etc and cause general mayhem, especially if there was gay content in the forum. He was trying to hit on me, btw. And this was something he thought would entice me to him. Whatever. And I was out at work at that time btw. Yes, it was more pleasant to be out. It always is. Depends where you work.

R221 seems to think we get to "choose" where we work. No unemployment ever for R221! Goody for you

When GLB people work in homophobic environments, whatever their wages, they pay a price in their mental health. 'Struth!

[quote]Why people would want to work somewhere where they constantly have to edit themselves?

People "edit" themselves every day at work. Who says what they really think at work? You would be fired.

A lot of cute lesbians underestimate the compassion of straight guys. Guys date a lot of disabled girls. Lesbianism is a disability that can be accommodated.

Hey lesbian-whisperer, no woman wants to fuck with guys at all except to get money & kids. That’s why they lose all interest once they land those things. The only people interested in fucking straight dudes are gay dudes.

F/F for R227

How about a comparison to other potentially invisible minority statuses - is a Jewish or Muslim guy betraying himself & his community if he smiles & nods at “merry Xmas”? Does a vegan have to speak up if he hears vegan-mocking?

I’d say not necessarily, the invisible minority can judge for himself whether speaking up would be to the benefit of himself & those around him. It’s great to seize a “teachable moment,” but that’s not always what one is facing.

Some Jews and Muslims and Hindus do actually celebrate Christmas at home.

R224, it is possible to apply for other jobs--even while you already have one. I am sorry if you did not know this. But people do this all the time.

We are still closeted!

R230, that is not really parallel. The way people come out as gay--or for that matter Jewish or Muslim, is not by taking a stand or reprimanding,but more simply--noting that you are tired because the husbands visiting parents kept you up, or you cannot have a piece of cake because its Ramadan, or you need to leave early because you have an event at the synagogue.

Who has the energy to keep making up stuff?

Okay then, helpful friend carving out an ever-tinier area of acceptable discussion, is a Muslim guy betraying himself and his community if he just says no thanks to the piece of cake but doesn’t mention Ramadan?

R235, I still do not understand the sense of your question. How does betrayal come into it?

I can say this. If he turns down the cake and the person offering says, "Oh, I am sorry. I forgot . Its Ramadan so you cannot eat the cake , right?"If the Muslim says "Ramadan? Never heard of it. What is that?' he is likely to be very unhappy and will eventually be caught in a lie.

In a sense, all women under 30 are lesbians. Females are a societal resource.

I seem to remember women under thirty being very hetrosexual and horny but that's just my experience r237, is everyone your age like you?

R236 reasoning by analogy is a simple and common way to move a conversation forward. What part of that do you not understand?

Yes, a gay guy who is encouraged to openly discuss his mate by a friendly, knowledgeable co-worker will likely regret lying to deny his homosexuality. Easy.

How about the far more likely scenario that lacks the sincere and friendly encouragement toward openness? Not “oh I forgot it’s Ramadan,” just “want some cake man?”

For those saying OP has to come out or else is cowardly etc, can the Muslim guy say no thanks to the cake, or does he have to bring up Ramadan?

"Reasoning by analogy" is the operative phrase. That would be easy to understand.

"Diverting by fake analogy" is what is hard to understand. I do not understand how "betrayal'" relates to being out in the workplace. And your scenarios for coming out all are centered on confrontation. You are not reasoning by analogy but rather shifting the definition of coming out into something aggressive and maybe hostile. This is an attempt to turn being out into some harsh expression of solidarity is just weird. It is not how most out people live their lives.

I think this is an attempt to make being closeted into a form of consideration or politeness. But that is just too weird.

It would be great to have a discussion based on logic and reason. But What you are doing is using rhetoric to shift the ground. That is neither a fruitful nor interesting way to discuss anything.

^zzzzzzzzz

Second restatement of the analogy doesn’t contain the word betrayal but substitutes the above-stated coward to address your objection.

Did not bother to read the rest of your boring & most likely evasive response. Don’t u have something better to do? I sure do.

Diversity is added complexity. You are asking normal society to accommodate you. This is only going to happen in prosperous times when there Are abundant resources. The reason Hitler or German doctors killed off all the disabled was that upper middle class were starving. Those were desperate times. Get married to a straight woman and have kids. Your gay urges don't need to be actualized. For all we know, Hitler was gay. Support your white race. Unify this country.

R239 WADR, I don't see remaining private, or not sharing as tantamount to a betrayal of anyone or anything. To use your analogies, unlike myself with an obviously Jewish name, I have known Jews with other names, or secular Jews not tell everyone they had Jewish heritage. I never looked on them as traitors to Jews, just more assimilated, or that the holidays were not that important to them.

I think two major aspects are being overlooked here. Many of us are taught not to discuss politics or religion whilst at the workplace, office, shop, etc. If we do not trust we know where peoples' allegiance lies, we're more apt to be "all about business". This can be seen as the norm for many of us, especially if we are non-confrontational personality types. It certainly does not mean we won't shut down talk we find offensive or bigoted, but we are not going to bring the subject up. Sexuality is very politicised, and falls directly under this category.

R244, I think a lot of us are sharing experience in white collar jobs. In an office setting, people do speak all the time--in elevators, before meetings, etc. Politics does come up, because it has an impact on business. and social political trends have to be projected to make decisions.

In an office, you do not discuss these things in a confrontational way. I guess if you are not used to it, it is hard to imagine people talking about stuff like that without it being confrontational. But that is normal in business.

Sexuality is politicized? I think that is also maybe hard for some people to imagine. But generally speaking, in the white collar world, sexuality is not poiticised in the workspace. If you try to politicize it, that is seen as being negative.

R85

Acknowledging you're gay is no more talking about sex than acknowledging you're straight

R245 I disagree wholeheartedly. Not sure what field you work specifically in, but you shouldn't try to narrow this down to white collar people mostly post here, and we speak of controversial politics all the time. I have friends in investment banking as well as at hedge funds in London, NYC, and Singapore. Gay people are not discussing their private lives with their very conservative colleagues, at least not quite so often as you might suggest. Advertising, Marketing, Architectural firms yes, Banking and Finance, even on Wall St., not so much my friend. The MO in these environments is AAB.

most everyone is weighing with how they'd handle it and how they think other people should handle this issue.

Frankly, I think OP should do whatever he wants.

Furthermore R245 , who may be sleeping with whom is not part of business cycles, or affecting the bottom line. What field do you work in may I ask?

R248, I think you are reading something that is not there. No one is "talking about their private lives" or who they are sleeping with. People in business do mention family and significant others in a general way, sometimes discuss holiday and vacations. Some have even been known to have photos of spouses in their office.

I work in finance and formerly media. I seriously doubt that you would find ANY area in which people do not mention spouses and children and parents. Most people would not consider saying that they went to Spain with their husband for a week to be a discussion of "who is sleeping with whom."

I am still loving seeing the work "whilst." Someone has been reading too much Jane Austen.

I suspect the Insurance business is quite conservative and mainstream too, so I daresay those offices have a different standard of decorum also. To suggest there exists no "white-collar" bigots or anti-gay conservatives either religiously, or politically is being very delusional about American society. This is where people perhaps undermine themselves in an "office" setting: false sense of security. Wherever do rich and powerful staunch American Republicans work if not at ANY white collar office jobs? Hogwash!

Sorry to offend R252, but I am a British retired eldergay! I try to use fewer words of British usage, however that word is hard to dislodge from my lexicon.

R251 Thank you for sharing, but to clarify the gay men whom I know working in these fields are not married to other men, they are single, all living the gay casual lifestyle except my mate in Singapore, because gay sex is still illegal and culturally verboten there. You generalise too much for my taste though. OP never said he was married, but had a partner. This doesn't pass muster in my mind compared to married conservative straight people. These gentlemen do not lie in order to remain hidden, but do not offer anything up which may prove to be incriminating either. They're single, period.

If you're not out at work but live in the same city as your co-workers, do you walk around town with your bf or gay friends constantly afraid you'd run into someone from work.

I used to when I was closeted at work. It's exhausting.

I agree, R256. Even if you are not married, you are eventually going to run into someone from work when you are on a date or doing something socially with other gay men. Do people like OP hide in such situations? Or make up some story?

I have worked with anti-gay bigots and the only real protection against them is to be out. There was a guy who was hounded out of his job and later I found out he was gay, but closeted. They used it as a weapon against him. The only they could do with the out gays was snub them at office events.

Why would a gay person live in Singapore? Gay people LEAVE Singapore, they do not get a job there!

That I don't know R256, as I haven't been closeted. I am fortunate enough to be grateful, (not smug), that I worked for two leading auction houses, and was an antiquarian.... Pink collar profession where being gay did not matter much. I doubt my two banker friends in London and NYC are running amok paranoid after hours, but I shall ask them now.

[quote]I used to when I was closeted at work. It's exhausting.

Everything about being closeted is exhausting. If you live in a western country there is no reason for it in 2018.

R259 has issued his ruling. He will next ejaculate on your leg.

R257 My friend had a once in a lifetime oppurtunity to make close to six fold what he was making in his London office. In addition to the pay difference, his bonuses are millions of pounds. His housing is taken care of by the fund as well, in addition to a housekeeper/cook. Married family men were probably less willing to move to the offices they opened there. Again, you sound very judgemental questioning his motives. (Perhaps this is the American way, no?) We are all different. He is the most financially successful person I know; I wouldn't second guess him. I'm a capitalist, and I'm proud of him. He won't be living there permanently, that I do know.

Look, be closeted at work if you want to be closeted at work - that's your deal. But all these people equating being out with talking about who you're sleeping with are exhausting. Post after post has explained that being open about your sexuality is NOT about talking about having sex; pro-closet people are either so delusional that they cannot understand that, or they are willfully misunderstanding it to validate their choices. I can't think of a single straight person I've worked with who has not casually mentioned a spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend - no one would ever consider that they are discussing their sex life when they do it.

R261, I was not being judgemental. I truly could not figure out why a gay person would go there since everyone I know from there paints such an awful picture. Making six times your salary with expenses covered might do it. I got a similar offer to go to a different country for three times what I made here. It was not worth it to me. But six times...I would think about it.

Again, not sure if you have commented here before, but if the party in question is single, as the closeted men I know, I see no problem with it. It suits their lifestyle better to be private. They are not living a married lifestyle by any stretch, no children, no vacations with a partner. Stop judging all gay men from your narrow POV and experience.

sounds idiotic to me

^meant for R262

I wish I could w/w that post 10 times r262.

I'm pro-individual, pro-choice, and not "pro-closet", as there most certainly is a difference. Seriously though, why must one feel obligated to share this part of their life if all it entails are apps, hook-ups, and maybe SOMETIMES real dates for these men. I use these blokes not just because they are the best examples, but as they are my close friends. I feel as if I have to defend their choices, and their privacy. It seems perfectly reasonable to me...for them. R262 cannot fathom there still are old single gay blokes getting their jollies on without a commited relationship apparently.

Are you really this dense r268? How do you not understand r262's simple post?

For the record, many Brits love Singapore, it isn't as awful as you have heard. If you're a rich expat it is quite a nice lifestyle. There are many American expats there who seem to love it too.u You're spot on R269 as It is simple. He speaks of a completely different situation than my friends have; they are not analogous whatsoever. He also doesn't work with them or in their field. Simple. Quite.

[quote] Stop judging all gay men from your narrow POV and experience.

R262 did not judge anyone in his post. In fact, he noted that he considers it your own business if you want to be closeted at work. He merely reiterated that being openly gay at work is not—as some posters keep insisting—the same thing as talking about gay sex or your own personal sex life at work. That's a fact, not a judgment. If that fact somehow makes you feel judged, that's your problem.

People in my office found out about me because of the sequined jockstrap I wear to work every day.

R269 is either extremely dense, or is a troll. If one only has tawdry hook ups to speak of in regards a gay orientation, one essentially would resort to just talking about tricks. Nothing to share . Same as being single. If they run into colleagues, I 'm sure they introduce whomever as a friend, and leave it at that. Just because someone older than you and from a different culture disagrees with you does not indicate they fail to understand as you suggest. You are a fine example of American hubris and bad form.

There are always a few people who will just know.

Saying you are gay is not talking about your sex life r273. As this poster said nicer than I would say to you right now.

[quote]He merely reiterated that being openly gay at work is not—as some posters keep insisting—the same thing as talking about gay sex or your own personal sex life at work. That's a fact, not a judgment. If that fact somehow makes you feel judged, that's your problem.

You honestly seem to be thinking this way

My only two options are 1)Hide I am gay 2) Talk about rent boy cock and bathhouse hook ups!

When the reality is 3) Not hide being gay, still give no more details on your private life than feel comfortable discussing at work. Your orientation is not the details of your sex life, it is just your orientation.

Not the bloody point though really; now is it R274? It is that no one owes his colleagues any explanation if he doesn't care to risk his security... For what? The three of them know how conservative their colleagues are. Not much in common for a foundation I suspect.. I have known an elderlez attorney who was in a similar spot. She had no partner either in a small conservative firm.

Work should be mainly about work. Call me crazy small talk shouldn't go very deep into someone's private life (what did you do this weekend? Me? Oh went hunting with my buds and shot some game! /Me? I went to my 25th Trump rally! / Me? Oh, I fucked my mistress while my wife visited her mom / Me? Oh, I just put my address online, put on a blindfold and let random strangers breed me!)

Disclosing your sexual identity and relationship status is ok, but beyond that what's the fucking point to know more private things about one in the work place? Do your job and do your job good and efficient.

If you want friendships or relationships don't look for them in the workplace. It just creates lots and lots of uncecessary drama. Be cordial and be professional.

So anyone who is single must be a pedophile, R76? That is just bizarre thinking.

Personally, I'm not out at work but since I don't date, I don't tell lies about my life either. I'm extremely private and I don't even really like to share info about more mundane things that I do in my free time. I do have a coworker who often muses that I'll probably be getting married to a man and having kids soon, (I'm a lesbian), but those kinds of comments would be invasive even if I were straight. I never respond one way or the other.

It's true that a lot of straight people blast their personal lives 24/7, and I don't get it. Do people really imagine that anyone else gives a shit what their kids look like?

I have several single coworkers who don't seem to date, and no one gossips about their lives. We're there to work, and nothing else. These are not people I would spend time with in other settings, so why share things about my personal life with them? And no, we're not uneducated dolts. We all have university degrees.

R276 You seem to be doing it too: blaming me and saying I only see it one of two ways. I defended the OP and my three fellow Brits who happen to work in very high testosterone all male investment banking worlds. THEY see it this way. I am merely saying it's not my place to judge them as a friend, but rather trust their own good judgemen and support them. They have used words like they think it best if it did not come out, but they're not actively making up endless stories as a cover. They just contribute very little in that regard, and they are single. I don't see the big deal. Untill all you proud mary types work in their offices you cannot say for sure they are wrong. It kind of gets creepy to me that you take a fellow gay man and hang him out to dry for this.

Cheers R279, & R278 Voices of reason to my ears and mind!

[quote][R269] is either extremely dense, or is a troll. If one only has tawdry hook ups to speak of in regards a gay orientation, one essentially would resort to just talking about tricks.

Fine, dude. If the only way your sexual orientation has figured into your life at all, ever, is via "tawdry hook-ups"—which of course are not sensible fodder for workplace conversations— then maybe you'll end up in the closet at work by default. Or maybe at some point, for whatever reason, you will simply tell someone that you are gay. That's up to you. Either way, it's still true that being out at work does not mean talking about sex at work.

[quote]Nothing to share . Same as being single

Not really. For many or most single people, being open about their sexual orientation at work might be as simple as mentioning an ex-boyfriend or -girlfriend or an upcoming first date, or even just mentioning a favorite activity or hangout or whatever that everyone knows is patronized mostly by gay men (or straight chicks, or whomever). In any case, it does not require talking about sex.

Again R282 Stop your bloody proselytizing, as I'm retired and never was closeted. Do try to keep up as they are fond of saying here. It isn't your place to tell these single gay men they must "confess" their taste for blokes to their straight conservative colleagues. You are really not very bright, just militant. Do you suggest to my friend in Singapore he tell them he digs blokes too? Go toss off! Not everyone lives in your fantasy land. It isn't your place to judge them. If they know they are the only one, and it is not in their best interests do you feel they owe their self-sabotage to the gay cause like self immolation or something? None of you are quite realistic, and I suspect never had their amount of money on the line to lose either. Just a bunch of pushy Americans being sanctimonious. Your sort would probably never land these jobs to begin with, as you would more than likely scare these guys off, and make them so uncomfortable they wouldn't want to work with you. I think people in their fifties and older know well enough, and don't need your militant shite. OP sure doesn't either. Each man can decide for himself if his sexuality is going to be respected and well received at the office. Not one size fits all.

Why do gays insult people by saying they are prolly gay. Very telling.

[quote]Again [R282] Stop your bloody proselytizing, as I'm retired and never was closeted.

I'm not proselytizing. I couldn't care less whether you are now or ever were closeted at work. I'm merely noting that being out at work does not mean telling coworkers about your sex life. Have you always had this much trouble with reading comprehension?

[quote]It isn't your place to tell these single gay men they must "confess" their taste for blokes to their straight conservative colleagues.

No shit, Sherlock. Would you like to point out where in my post I said that your single gay male friends MUST or even SHOULD come out at work? You can't, because I didn't. Again, my only point is that when people are out at work, it doesn't mean they're running around the office yakking about sex, as some people here have tried to argue.

Stating one's fucking orientation is sexual in nature, as it is one's sexuality, and in point of fact it is admitting one is a member of a minority class, which may NOT be protected. That is enough of a risk if your hedge fund is not "Pro-Gay", but conservative, no women, boiler room mentality with high testosterone. You must not have close straight male friends either I suspect. You are mincing words saying admitting one's orientation is not talking about SEX. You tell a bunch of Alphas you find blokes sexually attractive, even though you know they're not the sort you would choose for your mates, you make everyone miserable. Grow up.

I love the song "Keep it in the Closet" by Michael Jackson

R283, I don't care whether you're closeted or not, but you may want to get some help with your anger issues. You are freaking out and seeing things that are not there, responding to points that nobody has made.

Guys, come down.

In theory, no one should have to be closeted.

But in the vastly imperfect world we live in, it is a decision for each person to make for himself or herself.

R289 here again.

Sorry, that was Guys, calm down.

JFC, r286, if coming out at work is not a good option for you or your friends or whomever the hell you are banging on about, then stay in. Who cares? No one's saying you/they need to do otherwise. But no, merely acknowledging that you are straight or gay (if that is what you choose to do) does not equal talking about sex, weirdo.

R288 Just because you don't see the issues doesn't mean they are not all through this thread. Only a minority defends the OP's decision for his own life, and the three mates of mine in their fifties. You who feel compelled to tell everyone how they should operate is the problem . It is subtle, yet a weak attempt at convincing us it is harmless just to "at least admit your orientation, if you're single share something about an ex-boyfriend, mention a gay hangout, etc..." We all don't need to do this to respect each other as gay men and support our friends.

As a very open, outgoing person, I learned a LONG time ago, that when you are open about what you are into WHEN the subject comes up, and you are consistently open, no one really gives a shit. The people that like you like you, the ones that don't don't. In my experience, what people get nervous about is someone who is obviously lying, or someone who never shares, as they feel like you are judging THEM and have no skin in the game as it were.

HOWEVER, to the OP, don't get bullied into opening up, if that's not for you. Sure, most people probably already know, some laugh about you behind their back, some out people resent you, and some other closeted people feel for you. I wish you the best.

Even people born with two heads think they are normal and should not be seen as different. Gayness is a serious deviation from normal. As a straight male, gays scare me . I'm university educated and have thought about the issue a lot. Most straight males have a high level of rage towards gays. Just because white women vote to accommodate your aspirations foes not mean gayness will ever be seen as normal. It's gone too far. Listen to yourselves, you hate white people even though u r white. Do I want to be fifth column??????

Whatever are you scared of R294? It can't be merely listening to us, as I suspect you've been here all along.

R294 perhaps you should just kill yourself and make the world a better place

If gays "scare" you R294, then why would you willingly subject yourself to the gay opinions and especially gay porn on this forum? You must have gone to a shitty university.

I was out my entire career...since 1979. I never found that it hurt (or helped) me in any way. I retired with seven figures.

Am I lucky? Yes. It often does come down to the right industry, in my cast telecommunications. But I never considered doing it any other way. And I'm so glad I could be who I am.

Wow, that's great, R298. I can't believe people in 1979 were totally okay with you talking about rimming assholes and sucking cock during board meetings. Right, R292?

They laugh at the "out" people behind their back, too.

R300, yep, it's true. People are really bastards.

[quote]Many women NEVER speak about their husbands or children

[quote]Putting in all caps doesn't make it more true. Anyone who has ever left their house before knows this is bullshit.

It's not bullshit. I've worked in offices for decades and I've known MANY women who never talk about their families. Sorry!

I want to work there.

Ha ha R299 made a really grotty big boy funny! Tres gay too!

I would like to point out, because a few seem to be overlooking the fact that OP, to my memory having read the entire thread, has never said he works in a traditionally conservative field or that his coworkers are conservative or religious. He did, however, say in his post at R67 that he is ashamed of his sexual orientation. To my mind, there is a big difference between not revealing your sexuality out of a sense of self-preservation due to your coworkers bigotry, or your perception of same; and staying closeted because you are ashamed of being gay. The latter suggests you would stay closeted regardless of how your coworkers may or may not react, because it's solely based on being ashamed of being gay, instead of staying closeted because you believe being out would negatively affect your work-life.

A gay U.S. president would sort it all out. The president could declare the country is post-homophobic.

Calling America post-racist worked like a treat, did it not?

If I can share a tangentially related story, I worked in a office about 20 years ago: it was a pretty young office and everyone kind of knew everyone else's business, to a degree. Furthermore, we had two overnight events a year to which spouses/dates were invited.

Two managers were living together ( a man and a woman) and went to great lengths to hide it. One had a Fed Ex PO Box for his mailing address, and they both brought platonic friends to company events. I think most everyone knew they were a couple, but it was still a secret. I actually can see where they were coming from.

Women talk a whole lot about their personal lives in the office in certain offices!

And if they don't, cubicle culture, where you can hear people's personal phone calls can guarantee that you know more than you need to about your co-workers.

I love this weird idea that offices are places where people only every talk about work AND NOTHING ELSE. Really? Where? what kind of office do these posters work in. I'm not particularly interested in my coworkers private lives, but I know whose married, who has kids and grandkids, who just bought a house. It's pretty impossible not to. what is this shit that people never ever talk about anything OMG private in the sacred precincts of the workplace?

I do not know about the people at work, but there are a lot of people on this thread with creepy and demeaning ideas about what it means to be gay.

I am fine being out at work. But I wonder if I should be closeted on Datalounge.

don't you know gay is sex, sex, sex 24-7, and then more sex?

r311 My life is like that. Got any ideas on how to get into a long term relationship?

People talk about their sexuality all the time. Talking about your kids, your friends, your interests, your vacation destinations; all these topics (and many more) can naturally, effortlessly, and sometimes unavoidably (without special effort) indicate a person’s sexuality. Pretending otherwise is denial.

It's true - when I try to explain that to people I show them the Ted broadcast with the Drag Queen Panty (I forget her last name). She said "I am 41 years old and I have never held my lover's hand in public without first checking my surrounding." When you get them to understand 'I can't kiss my partner in public without fear of being attacked.." they start to get it.

I'm like r279, I don't date either and most of my coworkers don't date or are married. I've never been to compelled to discuss who or what I prefer sexually, it honestly has never come up. My coworkers and I have pretty pleasant conversations about a lot of things but they rarely get that personal. We have more than enough workplace drama and gossip related to our actual work that we don't even have time to talk about things outside of work.

i just don't believe you r315. I don't believe you have never had a straight coworker mention anything, anything at all, not one tiny clue about their OMG straight life because you are all too busy gossiping about work. do not believe you.

and r279 sounds ridiculously tightly wound and desperately trying to pretend that never, ever talking about anything outside of work is some noble calling and not pure fear that anybody will find out the awful truth that she is a dyke.

R316 called it. These people who claim that no one alludes to their life outside the office just are not credible.

So when people have to take their kid to the emergency room, or go to their in-laws funeral, or attend a wedding, or drive a loved one to chemo, or come back from vacation--we are really supposed to believe that they make no reference to their absence? No one refers to going out to a concert or dinner or coffee or watching television or any of the things people do with friends? No one has photos on their desk or says that something was a gift?

I have worked with a few people like that. They were so creepy that they were let go at the earliest opportunity. No one trusted them. And we are supposed to believe that there could be a whole workplace like that?

It's extra work for you to stay in the closet-- alternate pronouns, withholding information, keeping stories straight. But you're not getting paid for it. You're a discount employee.

[quote]It is subtle, yet a weak attempt at convincing us it is harmless just to "at least admit your orientation, if you're single share something about an ex-boyfriend, mention a gay hangout, etc..."

Dude, your reading comprehension is really very poor, largely I suspect because of all the issues you are bringing to this topic. I am not r288, but I am the person who mentioned the above items (ex-boyfriend, gay hangout, etc.). I did not, however, state that anybody needs to discuss these things at work or that it is always harmless for every gay person to do so. I merely noted that these are among the myriad ways that people, both gay and straight, reveal their sexual orientation to coworkers WITHOUT EVER TALKING ABOUT SEX. For the 99th time, my whole entire point in the posts you find so objectionable* is NOT that every gay person on the planet must be out at work but that being out at work does not equal talking about sex at work. Good lord.

*Are there other posts in this thread that argue that being closeted at work is pathetic, sad, cowardly, etc.? Yes, indeed, there are. But for some reason, you keep losing your shit over posts that I and r262 have written that are not even about whether it's okay or not okay to be closeted at work but merely about how idiotic it is to equate being out with discussing your sex life.

Bigots, fundies, and garden variety conservatives not keen on gays interpret sharing one's minority and "objectionable" orientation, or as they like to call it "gay lifestyle", as discussing their sexuality. Sexuality is after all, ABOUT SEX! LOL!!!! Sex is in the word sexuality. I may speak more broadly due to a cultural shift British vs American sensibilities, or because of my age R320. I feel you just like to quibble over niggling bits. They tell people who are gay constantly they do not wish to hear about our sex lives! We both do not see eye to eye. I am not making any distinction between the two (again details vs orientation) for a reason (which again you have miserably failed to grasp) Those not on our side perceive and use this against us however they can. To be safe, if one is not in a hetero normative monogamous LTR, it is still my opinion it is best to say absolutely nothing regarding ones SEXuality in an insecure conservative workplace. Younger people do take for granted that when older gays 50's and 60's specifically were starting out in many of our careers had to be more discreet and protective of our reputations. We have paved a broad swath of the road you can now dance and skip on, so have a shred of respect for us eldergays.

BTW R320, how young are you that you cannot refrain from addressing me as "dude"? Another cultural difference I'm not keen on. I suspect I'm probably old enough to be your father, and deem it inappropriate. Might you be one of our illustrious "Millenios"?

Would like to read thread but most of this is TLDR. Can u people shorten your posts, especially the shrieking harpy composing soliloquies on the same point over and over again.

To the harpy - of course saying one is gay is not talking about sex. But it is revealing oneself to be a minority, and a sexual minority at that. Enjoy your fantasy world where this is never an issue. Hopefully someday it’ll be reality.

What have we learned so far? There is a wide variety of experience in the world. Some office environments are very different from others.

I know a straight woman in construction, with solid good ole boys. She said she doesn’t want to be the one snatch circled by dogs (she looks kinda ugly to me but what do I know, anyway she is skinny & blond) so she tries to present as a lez. She styles herself no-nonsense and said she doesn’t mention her husband or kids. !!!

Impossible to imagine a dude adopting a parallel approach. Again, infinite varieties in life experience.

To R262 and others: as a woman (yes, there are women lesbians who work. Being out or not at work is not only for gay guys) you learn very quickly NOT to bring up sex in any way, shape or form (and especially the lesbian sex) when you are with people who are just acquaintances or even strangers - for example, people you work with. They're not your friends. Anyway, if you're a young, attractive woman (and even if you're not!) you don't need to bring up sex (mentioning your girlfriend will do that) to have the boys at work THINKING about sex when they are interacting with you. They're already doing that on their own! Don't help them! And for godssakes don't bring up "lesbian fantasies" to their minds by casually mentioning your girlfriend, just to appease whichever posters over here that yes, you are out and damn proud of it, even if that may cost you your job (the one that pays the bills) or your freedom from harrassment, sexual or otherwise.

Feels like I'm talking with kids here on DL sometimes.

Also, many western countries have sub-groups, including workplace subgroups, where life is pretty much as it was in the 1950s. Would you have been out in the 1950s? I don't think so. So there you go. Geez.

Jesus, what R278 said ten times over. R278, be my co-worker! Cordial and professional, that's all it takes. Who cares about the rest. Once in a blue moon you may make friends at work, but that is extremely rare.

Posters who love sharing their weekends and whatever other private boring stuff with their coworkers are actually Gay Fraus.

Me, I prefer my Criterion DVDs.

I must say I agree with what R293 posted. The fact is boring office worklife is not for me, even though I do the work and do it well, and it is not for me mostly because I find co-workers either mindblowingly boring or addicted to drama. Personally I have NO SKIN IN THE GAME and will admit to it truthfully (some managers have been reluctant to hire me because of this, and have told me so, even though they perceived me as highly capable). That is why I do not give a fuck and outside of work-related issues I will not give the time of day to most my co-workers, unless for some reason I find you interesting. You would be very surprised this actually works for me, but again it took me years to understand this was the best option for me. And totally guilt-free! I love to have fun too, but you have to know how to play the game. Most co-workers have no game.

Some posters seem to believe not mentioning your personal life equates making up another one. I personally never mention my private life except in the few cases when I've been out at work, and have never "made up" anything. Who wants to invent another life instead of the one you have? I just find most of the people I've been sentenced to work with pretty boring, so there's nothing to tell really. Actually, I'm almost curious as to what life is like in prison because office work doesn't seem that different, except they let you out at night.

R321, I am 39 and have A LOT of respect for eldergays and agree with most of what you have posted. As a continental European I would also like to say that I have loved Britain for a long time and still visit several times a year (in fact I'm going next month). Always loved my time in England, and except for one or two occasions have rarely encountered homophobia there. Thank you and hope to see you lot again soon.

Excellent post, R324. Love it.

The lengths to which we women have to go to... I relate. Godspeed to your friend, in construction no less! Boy oh boy.

How much of this debate is age based? It seems the eldergays who had to live with more prejuduce skew toward the closet. I'm an eldergay and my experience has fortunately allowed me to be openly and casually myself in all situations, it's poignant hearing contemporaries who haven't been so lucky defending their decision to remain 'private', it doesn't sound like a choice and seems rooted in shame derived from family and societal pressure.

R332, much as I respect your being my elder, risking your job is not shame. And I agree much of this seems to be generational. The older posters who have been out their entire professional lives at least recognise they were lucky, the younger seem to take it as a given.

It's well known that there is very little value seen in anything you never fought or suffered to obtain.

r316, I said *I* have never been compelled to discuss what I prefer sexually. How you read that to mean my coworkers NEVER discuss ANYTHING about their life outside of work, I'm not sure.

My coworkers do talk about their spouses, kids and grandkids, and this is pretty limited to conversations about what they did over their weekend, their kids or grandkids hitting milestones, etc. But there is very little discussion about actual anyone's dating life because no one is actively dating. That is when you would discuss things like who you go out with or what kinds of men or women you like. So that conversation in particular about my life has never happened with my coworkers.

This whole topic is really relative to the demographics of who you work with. Maybe you guys who are stressed about it should find another fucking job!

[quote] BTW [R320], how young are you that you cannot refrain from addressing me as "dude"? Another cultural difference I'm not keen on. I suspect I'm probably old enough to be your father

Unlikely, unless you are truly ancient. I am in my 50s and use "dude" only as shorthand for "you're ridiculous, I have no respect for you, and I should have ended this tiresome conversation long ago." So I will now.

All I have left to say is, you've continued to argue and whine about points I never made, which makes the conversation pointless. You should think about improving your reading skills, and btw, my god, you're whiny for such an old fart.

I wonder what these people do at their jobs if they have so little insight and so boldly make statements that they have to take back.

So R315/R334 has admitted that people at work do talk about their personal lives after adamantly saying they do not.

But just so that he can save face, he is now claiming that this thread defines being out as taking about dating and sexual taste---in spite of numerous posts contradicting that.

And he thinks no one notices.

I wonder what he is like at work. Does he do the same tactics there?

What I really wonder about r315 is where does s/he work that none of the single people date, ever, as though it were their official life policy?

R333 Perhaps our ideas of elder is at odds, I'm in my 50s, which perhaps some think of as middle aged, but in this context I would consider elder, especially given the seismic changes that have occurred in sexual identity issues during my/our time. Your comment "It's well known that there is very little value seen in anything you never fought or suffered to obtain" is sound but doesn't really apply to closet cases, who don't fight the system and only suffer for the benefit of their oppressors. The fact I feel lucky to have not lived a closeted life doesn't mean it was handed to me on a plate, anyone who grew up in the 70s and 80s has experienced homophobia and I certainly have, my luck was in having the fortitude to not be cowed by it. As for risking your job, a job isn't prison you can choose to change careers and even locations to suit your situation, if you don't perhaps there is an element of collusion. I understand people's motivation for staying closeted but it is not admirable.

No one is ever really closeted at work. I can tell by the way they stare at my cock at the urinal.

You can go your own way!

Look at all the coastal, out of touch elitists in this thread who think every place in America bleeds blue.

Try living in a ghetto area for a few years, where kids yell FAGGOT!! during lunchbreak in a city park (these are Generation Z, born around 2000). You're living and working there because you couldn't afford rent in a better area anymore, and since nobody wanted this job because of the area, you're sure to keep it. In this place you're considered "bougie", which you are - everyone else is either poor, out of work, in and out of prison, doing and/or dealing drugs, etc. Anyone who HAS a job is priviliged. And also priviliged to hear FAGGOT!! over their lunchbreak. Cool.

Not to mention all the posters who assume everyone on DL is living in America, R341. Or maybe America is the world? Perhaps it is. We should try better.

[quote] As for risking your job, a job isn't prison you can choose to change careers and even locations to suit your situation, if you don't perhaps there is an element of collusion. I understand people's motivation for staying closeted but it is not admirable.

Typical elitist homo. I don't know where you live but decent jobs don't grow on trees here. Some of us have obligations and bills to pay, and families to take care of. Some of us live in states with no legal protection from anti-gay discrimination. No one is actually "gay" at work anyway -- discussions of sex are verboten in the workplace. Why sacrifice your livelihood just so you can bore your co-workers with a review of last night's Drag Race?

I'm renting so that I can be out

[quote] HOWEVER, to the OP, don't get bullied into opening up, if that's not for you. Sure, most people probably already know, some laugh about you behind their back, some out people resent you, and some other closeted people feel for you. I wish you the best.

Good point. You cannot control anyone's opinion of you -- straight, openly gay, glass-closeted or deeply closeted. It will not matter. People will love, tolerate, pity, shame or ridicule you, and you can't do anything about it. You can and should only think about yourself and how living openly (or closeted) will affect your daily life. No one at work needs to know what happens in your home. Being "openly gay" at work invites its own perils and it is not for everyone.

At every job I have had, folks spent what I considered too much time socializing at work: be it making personal phone calls, b s-ing at the water cooler, or celebrating every single employee's birthday with a cake. (Cf - Elaine Benes in Seinfeld.lol)

In fact, I would say that when 8 to 6 became the norm (as opposed to 9 to 5) the result was just 2 hours more of non-work related b s-ing.

This is pertinent to this thread in that the more non work-related chitchat that goes on, the more one might feel a need to be "out" at work. Just my opinion.

Agree immensely R347.

The crucial point is that the closet is an institution maintained by straight people & imposed on gays. End homophobia, no more closet.

At some point the ability to throw off an outwardly imposed institution depends on the outside force’s willingness to let you.

You sound homophobic R344 , you describe sad and hopeless circumstances that are true for a fraction but most closeted gays are functioning well enough to hold a decent job and prefer to present themselves as eunuchs rather than reveal their true selves. There are many shades to gay life, it's not all elitist homos watching Drag Race as you describe it, the worst prison is that of self loathing when you are your own jailer.

Very all-or-nothing for some here. I've held over 10 different jobs over the past 15 years, and yes sometimes I preferred to spend the least amount of time possible with my colleagues, and that included not letting them know very much about me, including whether or not I enjoy Criterion DVDs (I do), others I was pretty much out - it depends on the situation. The shitty places I left quickly, obviously, but not before shouting I'M GAY! on my way out.

The damage of the closet is so evident here. The closeted people tend to define being gay strictly in terms of sex acts. To them being out means talking about what you are doing sexually. And they seem oblivious to straight sexuality in the workplace. They say straight people do not share their sexuality, but then admit that they do talk about spouses and children.

That they define their own sexuality as limited to who they are having sex with shows how the closet stunts their view of themselves.

I am an eldergay and even with my age I do not know why anyone ever chooses a career or even a job that requires closeting. Why choose that?

I live in small town. Just realized the guy selling insurance is prolly gay. It's just auto insurance . He's handsome. Can just tell by his composure. He's not effeminate. Well, he spent a little too much time with a very ugly woman entertaining her stupid questions. I feel certain rage welling up in me.

[quote]I am an eldergay and even with my age I do not know why anyone ever chooses a career or even a job that requires closeting. Why choose that?

You are very isolated from the real world if you think everyone can "choose" where they work.

It serves self loathers to see closeting as a result of a real world where there are no choices and tho that may be true for some, the vast majority who hide themselves do it from a sense of disgust at who they are and not because of financial or geographical circumstances R354.

R354, you are so right. I got a job in a very homophobic office and they made me live in the office and forbad me to have my own personal computer---so I could not apply or interview anywhere else. This went on for 20 years.

The worst is that in college and realized that the whole industry was homophobic. But I had already told my grandmother what kind of work I wanted to do, so I was stuck.

I was out at one job and I mention this guy (a platonic gay friend, actually) and one co-worker crassly asked 'which one you is the "man"?"

that's what can happen when you're out at work.

in any case, you have to be willing to tell people to fuck off or call them on their shit; and then you're not a person who's at work, you're an advocate for gay rights and equality.

Big deal R357 grow a pair, if someone insults you, you are entitled to tell them to fuck off.

R358, you're absolutely right.

FUCK OFF!

Right back at ya you closeted prick R359

I'm not closeted anymore, R360!

So FUCK OFF!

I will say this: I work in entertainment and at one studio in the late 80s and early 90s a LOT of guys were dropping dead from AIDS with great frequency. . So it wasn't just being gay that people were hiding; they were hiding people treating them like they were next to go. That because they were gay, then they'd eventually get AIDS (it's how a lot of people felt).

Back then -- and now even -- one unsafe encounter with one person whose sexual history you didn't know could end your life.

That's something straights didn't have to deal with AS MUCH.

The entitled ones are the ones who think you can "choose" where you work or live. They are so used to being rich, coddled, or unionized, they do not know know how the vast majority live.

Pity you didn't have the guts to tell the people you worked with the same, heaven forbid you should be seen as an advocate for gay rights R361

It is so hard to know where to start with R357. Someone makes some stupid remark at work. At first read, I thought the point was that nothing that terrible happens at work when you come out--maybe a stupid remark.

But then telling someone who insults you to back off is advocating for gay rights? That is a pretty big leap.

I hate to inform you, but co-workers say stupid things all the time. They will do it if you are gay or straight. And telling someone they are out of line is not being "an advocate for gay rights and equality."

I am realizing that these closeted types are perhaps oversensitive. They read all kinds of abusive and/or political meaning into ordinary interactions. This makes it a bit easier to understand them. But also it is disheartening because anything you or a co-worker says becomes part of their delusion. So they are untouchable. Unmovable.

Again with the rich/poor, entitled/real people bullshit, what nightmare world do you live in R363?, there are plenty of rich,entitled closet cases.

the problem R365 is that people are so ignorant; they actually believe in gay couples one is the man, one is the woman.

or that with two women all they need is to find the right man.

I could give two shits about what other people do with their lives, how they choose to live; but I've encountered many straight people who are more obsessed with gay life than some gay people are.

the older I get the more likely I'm willing to call someone out on their shit; but most people who are bigoted, closed-minded etc. -- all those good things -- don't really want to hear it. If they didn't they wouldn't be bigoted to begin with.

But mostly that'll be their problem not mine. Unless they're in a position to make my life hell at work. Some are. Some aren't.

If OP comes out and ends up losing his job, he'll either get another one where people are more accepting/don't give a shit or he won't.

Ultimately, we all make our own choices.

The vitriol I've seen thrown at people who choose to live differently based on their own experiences blows my mind.

Until anyone has truly walked in someone else's shoes they're never going to know what it's like.

R363, if you hate Walmart, apply at TJMaxx.

R368 hates people who are not rich more than homophobes.

All gay people have shared the same walk at some point in their lives R367 It's a good job there are many braver about it than the closet cases are here so that gay rights can actually exist and we can all walk taller as a result. We all know why people remain closeted but it's not something to be condoned or encouraged and definitely not celebrated.

Are any of the "brave" ones here who are insulting people in abusive work environments saying anything about the transing of children suspected of being gay? Because that is the gay issue that requires bravery now.

Your personal obsessions are not the issue here R371 but good try for shoe-horning it in .

It is not a "personal issue" -it is the #1 anti-gay issue right now. Those with real courage are speaking out and fighting against it. You are too cowardly to even admit it is a problem.

If all closet cases came out and showed the world just how many gays there actually are perhaps the 'threat' from the trans movement you see round every corner would not be the issue you perceive it to be R373

" the problem [R365] is that people are so ignorant; they actually believe in gay couples one is the man, one is the woman.

or that with two women all they need is to find the right man. "

R367, no that is not a problem. The problem is that you care about what they think. Most people would have shrugged off that man's comment. Or been angry for a day. You were so hurt that you see it as a reason to conceal pretty basic information that would come up in day-to-day conversation.

And if you really did think it was a problem that people are misinformed about how gay people live, then the solution would be for more gay people to be open about their lives. But you do not suggest that, because you know that this is not really the problem.

I am sure that people you work with have said offensive things to you many times about the state of your office, your car, your hometown, etc. But you do not even think about concealing those things. But somehow when it is about your sexual orientation, you think concealment is a valid option.

That says something about you and what you think about being gay.

R374, You are abusing people in abusive work environments who are not necessarily "closet cases" and again you fail to recognize the #1 anti-gay political push now. There is a pattern - you do not understand those in abusive work environments who are not in a position to quit and you do not understand or care about young people being transed. You do not have the courage to recognize or side with the vulnerable.

You are using the vulnerable to solidify your case for staying in the closet, and you are obsessed with trans R376

I came out at work in 1990 when I moved in with my then partner. I suffered no problems or blowback at that time, and support when that relationship ended after 5 years.

Year later I moved to another part of the country and was working in PR/marketing. I was a finalist for a good position in a governmental office, and was turned down for it just because I was gay. Had I been closeted, I would have landed that one job. But I would not want to work for a firm/office that supported discrimination. So being denied that one job was a blessing in disguise.

I've since had many solid jobs while being an out professional. I've mentored others through the coming out process and lived the example to live your true life.

Someone who would be fired and homeless is vulnerable You don't know what the real world is like.

And again, you say nothing about the #1 anti-gay issue right NOW - the transing of young who are suspected of being gay That is an outrage and a horror and you are silent about it.

Well you keep the anti trans thing going if it's what you think is the most important thing in your world R379, not sure I'd want someone as unhinged as you sound in my corner but good luck to you. Meanwhile, great story R378 I hope it can show some living in fear here that there are options and you can live a full and happy life as an out gay person.

R374 tells the truth in that it can have very negative consequences to be out. I have seen people not get promotions because they were gay. It is good you went on to better things, but others may be in different circumstances.

Oops , I meant R378 tells the truth

And they will remain in those negative circumstances if they follow your lead R382 stick to the trans bashing it's your authentic voice.

Speaking out against the anti-gay politics of the trans push is not "trans bashing" - it is fighting for gay existence and the #1 gay rights issue right now

Why do you care more about trans? .

You are the one obsessed with trans R384 we were discussing closet cases but you were impelled to insert your obsession. Are you in the closet yourself, isn't that a more pressing matter? Do you think perhaps it's easier to obsess about trans than look in the mirror?

So, um, when was the transing of gay children decided to be the #1 issue facing the gay community *right now*? I must have missed that committee meeting & vote and nobody told me, damn it! Does anyone have a copy of the meeting minutes so I can read the public comments and see the vote results?

You are clueless and blind to present day society, R386

You are a tragic closet case R387

I am not in the closet. I just understand there are different work environments.

If someone would be fired or passed over for being out, then why are they not trying to find another job?

Jobs are not that easy to come by, and I can assure you that those in abusive environments are constantly looking for another and better environment .It can't always happen right away.

You are peverse R391 your only take on R378 s very optimistic story was the bleak view that there is unstoppable discrimination in the workplace. R378 said in no uncertain terms that his life has flourished outside the closet but you still had to drag it back to how rough it is for people 'forced' to live a closeted life, you have a very negative attitude.

[quote] You sound homophobic [R344] , you describe sad and hopeless circumstances that are true for a fraction but most closeted gays are functioning well enough to hold a decent job and prefer to present themselves as eunuchs rather than reveal their true selves. There are many shades to gay life, it's not all elitist homos watching Drag Race as you describe it, the worst prison is that of self loathing when you are your own jailer.

You sound very overwrought and misinformed, r350. Life is not a political act, it is personal. If you don't have adequate personal fortitude, or family or community support, being "out" can be perilous. And that is before any determination of personal physical well-being, job security and financial stability. It is easy for the gays who fled to the liberal Coasts to judge being in the closet. You don't have to live in danger, face hostility or social ostracism if you are in SF or NYC or Chicago or Miami or Seattle.

I reject any argument that a gay person should come out to help EVERYONE ELSE. No assistance from EVERYONE ELSE will be forthcoming if you are harassed, get demoted, lose your job or get bashed in Oklahoma. It's real and many gay men are married to women to avoid the stigma and disadvantages of living as gay. Living truthfully is already a big step. Being "openly gay" at work (or not at work) is just not a possibility for every gay person. If your circumstances are such that you are safer in the closet, you should stay in the closet.

I am not advocating that anyone remain in the closet at work. I just don't think there is a grasp at DL of what life is like for gays and lesbians that don't live in big diverse cities with large, conspicuous gay communities and anti-discrimination laws. Even in 2018, one must consider how the decision to be out at work could impact your personal and professional ambitions.

[quote] It serves self loathers to see closeting as a result of a real world where there are no choices and tho that may be true for some, the vast majority who hide themselves do it from a sense of disgust at who they are and not because of financial or geographical circumstances [R354].

That is ridiculous. There is no way you can know what is in the hearts and minds of other people. Your dim view of other gays betrays your own self-loathing. This whole thread underscores the lack of camaraderie and compassion we have for each other. We face such savage judgment from everyone -- str8 and gay.

R393, Thank you for a well-stated, intelligent post.

You guys all start from the premise that gayness is not abnormal and that a good society must accommodate you. Life and society is solely about reproduction and survival. We need just how genetic gayness is.

OP: They probably already suspect you are gay...Just like family, coworkers have a gaydaralso.

R393 R394 You have a very dark outlook where people are pathetic drones, yoked to a small town that hates them, in a grim work situation in which they have to lie as they tremble in fear for their lives. In your description they have no prospect of leaving that environment and have to live forever in the shadows. Most gay people are born into hostile circumstances to varying degrees, some very hostile, and a great number have the fortitude to do something about it, they are the ones who should be celebrated and set as an example for the ones who feel unable to. Your patting the closeted on the head and saying they have no hope is patronizing and bleak. You describe circumstances where a gay person's wellbeing is in danger if they are found out, your solution is for them to do nothing, that seems like telling someone in a burning building to remain there.

What kind of masochist would stay if things are as bad as R393 says?

I am sorry, but it does not pass the smell test.

No one voluntarily stays in a concentration camp.

You are exaggerating r398. And still, there is no acknowledgment that there is real peril involved in being openly gay. You clearly assume that EVERY gay person can abandon their home and family to go live somewhere 'safe' with their "chosen" family of supportive gay friends. True for some not for others. Many are lucky enough to have accepting families even within hostile larger communities. Some are fortunate enough to live in a supportive family environment and social network AND live in an accepting larger environment. But that is not the story of every gay person.

I do think you at least seem to grasp that being gay can alter the trajectory and choices of a life. We are only talking about being openly gay AT WORK. I think we agree that being openly gay in life and at work is ideal. However, you cannot vilify anyone who doesn't make that choice when you have no real understanding of their life or circumstances.

There is just too much judgment and cruelty in this discussion and it all stems from the fact that being gay is tough for all of us -- no matter what degree of openness with which you live your life. You expect your gay brothers and sisters to be "out" to improve the quality of YOUR life but what can you offer them in return? Maybe start with some empathy and compassion for those whose lives are even less charmed than yours.

R400, your choice of language is what is defeating you. No not everyone can "abandon" their home and family to live somewhere safe. But they can move away from their home and family to live somewhere safe.

No one has to flee. You can move and visit every weekend if you want.

You keep alluding to life circumstances that for people to stay in hostile environments. What are the "life and circumstances" that make this necessary? Perhaps keeping it all vague is a way to avoid admitting that it is personal choice to live like this?

This is a bit like trying to convince a battered spouse to go to the shelter. Everyone else knows that the victim is in danger if they stay, but the victim keeps insisting that they have no choice.

Defining our lives as "charmed" is bullshit. It is another tactic to avoid taking responsibility. It is no accident that I lead an out life. I made choices that allowed me to live with dignity. Being gay is not tough for me. Why do you want so bad for it to be tough?

R401, you're just another online, armchair psychologist. I doubt you have a basic understanding of your own motivations so please don't assume you know anything about anyone else. I'm out everywhere and to everyone. I'm an "eldergay" who, like you, had to make choices that allowed me to live with dignity. I did have to leave home and had to be self-sufficient from an early age, not only because I am gay. Some of my family was supportive but most are gone now anyway. I've lived in Los Angeles for 30 years and I'm financially secure.

I have lived long enough to know how gays have struggled -- rejected and disowned by family and sometimes physically abused. Gays who have been traumatized by forced conversion therapy -- medical and "religious." I've known gay people who have lost their livelihood just for being gay. I've also known gay people who had to abandon their professional ambitions to "down-size" for safer, more gay-friendly professions. The epidemic of addiction among gays is evidence of the pain and trauma occasioned by living as "different" and against the grain of the majority culture. And then there have been the suicides... As many of my gay friends, colleagues and acquaintances are gone due to suicide as from any other cause, including AIDS and drug use -- and I live in LOS ANGELES. Even after their deaths, I have seen horrifying acts of cruelty by families that diminished and dishonored their lives and memories. This does not reflect the entirety of my or any other gay person's experience. Obviously there are many, possibly the majority, of us who live openly and have fulfilling lives with love, comfort and contentment, and hopefully some joy. Even so, life is tough for ALL gays and in ways that are due solely to being gay.

It is both tragic and funny to read comments from those of you strutting about on an anonymous message board crowing about living openly everywhere and shaming those who dont. So stupid. Datalounge is not the real world. Be thoughtful. Live your life fully and let others live theirs.

Wow! Family abuse and conversion therapy. Are you claiming that those are the reasons people are not able to leave a job or geographic location? I really cannot follow.

Eldergay at R402 sounds like he'd be fun at parties! Gay life to you sounds like a recipe for doom , gloom, addiction and misery, no wonder you view it as a perilous state .Your life seems to have left you with a very bleak outlook which sucks for you, but don't tar everyone with that brush, I'm an eldergay too and have had/am having a fine gay life as have many I know, allow that to be in the mix just so you don't terrify everyone into slamming the closet door in fear.

He DID put that in the mix, R404.

[quote]Obviously there are many, possibly the majority, of us who live openly and have fulfilling lives with love, comfort and contentment, and hopefully some joy.

R400/R394 Thank you for your comments; as they made sense. Glad the two of you get the compassion aspect involved. Too many here just like to feel superior putting other gay men down here.

One throwaway sentence in a lengthy ode to the miseries of gay life R405 , very faint praise indeed. If the majority us live openly with love and joy why concentrate so heavily on the miserable? R402 may consider themselves supportive of the less fortunate but if I was a closet case and read his stuff I'd give up hope. Also R402 seems disingenuous in order to hammer home his negative view, answering at one point the suggestion that people leave hostile environments with ' Typical elitist homo. I don't know where you live but decent jobs don't grow on trees here,' later saying Los Angeles has been his home for 30 years, hardly the hostile backwater. As for 'feeling superior' R406 it's not superiority that's the issue, it's sadness mixed with anger that gay people still feel the need to hide themselves , it's akin to black people passing themselves off as white, we know why you do it but not only does it stunt your life, it also encourages the attitude that being gay is wrong. You do you, but I've never heard a former closet case say they regret coming out whatever the hardships involved. I fully understand why some feel trapped and choose to remain closeted but I respect those who overcome that more than I feel compassion for those who don't.

[quote] One throwaway sentence in a lengthy ode to the miseries of gay life [R405] , very faint praise indeed. If the majority us live openly with love and joy why concentrate so heavily on the miserable?

Oh, gurl. . . what is your problem? You impugn my motivations and challenge the integrity of my commentary, but then you're like "you do you." You insist on making this about me and you but I am not fighting with you. I am not advocating for anyone to remain closeted. I am offering a counterpoint to the apparent consensus view that being openly gay at work is possible, preferable and liberating for everyone.

I am not trying to negate you or make you feel bad about being gay. You can be fulfilled and content and still acknowledge the challenges of being openly gay. More importantly, you can show gratitude that you can live openly and truthfully and do not have to suffer to do it.

[quote] [R402] may consider themselves supportive of the less fortunate but if I was a closet case and read his stuff I'd give up hope.

Don't lay that on me. If I were a closet-case and read some of the bitter, mean-spirited foolishness in this thread I would bolt the closet door.

[quote] Also [R402] seems disingenuous in order to hammer home his negative view, answering at one point the suggestion that people leave hostile environments with ' Typical elitist homo. I don't know where you live but decent jobs don't grow on trees here,' later saying Los Angeles has been his home for 30 years, hardly the hostile backwater.

Another of your regrettable assumptions. You assumed I was closeted and lived in a backwater for reasons unknown. I was responding to someone's suggestion that you can easily change jobs or locations just to facilitate being openly gay at work. As if finding a new job is as easy as buying a new t-shirt. For the record, decent jobs don't grow on trees IN LOS ANGELES -- or anywhere else. This discussion is about the choice to be openly gay at work, and the point that is missing is that measured against all the other obligations of one's life having an openly gay identity at work can be trivial. It depends on one's circumstances and options.

[quote] As for 'feeling superior' [R406] it's not superiority that's the issue, it's sadness mixed with anger that gay people still feel the need to hide themselves

But the sadness and anger is about how it makes YOU feel about being gay. There is a definite sense of "superiority" in the judgment that being closeted is ruinous to the soul and being openly gay is life-affirming. True for most but not all.

[quote] but I've never heard a former closet case say they regret coming out whatever the hardships involved.

The dead don't talk.

[quote] I fully understand why some feel trapped and choose to remain closeted but I respect those who overcome that more than I feel compassion for those who don't.

I hope you understand -- because it is not in evidence in your commentary. It saddens me to learn that the well-being and self-esteem of openly gay people is challenged because OTHER gay people choose to be closeted in life or at work. This should provoke some introspection. If you are happy and fulfilled in your life you will not feel degraded by the choices of others. You don't connect to their struggle and they don't connect to your joy -- so call it even. And if you can't muster any compassion you can also save your judgment.

And r407, I am not picking on you. I've responded to your points because it is my impression that you are being thoughtful (albeit contrarian) in your contributions. Clearly, you represent the majority view here at DL. And some of the other contributions are too inane to warrant response.

You keep attributing ideas to other people that were never said. Is this a common thing with you? You are arguing points no one has made and attributing opinions to others that are contrary to what they have expressed.

And you never answer questions that are asked of you.

"I was responding to someone's suggestion that you can easily change jobs or locations just to facilitate being openly gay at work. As if finding a new job is as easy as buying a new t-shirt. For the record, decent jobs don't grow on trees IN LOS ANGELES -- or anywhere else."

That is a great argument...if anyone made the suggestion you quote. No one has suggested that. But if one was in a job demanding this level of self-denial, one would spend even YEARS trying to find another. Changing locations? For most people that is a one or two year project. But it is much easier to argue if you misrepresent what you are arguing against.

This is one example, but you have been doing this repeatedly and dodging everytime you are called on it.

It may be that you simply have trouble comprehending what you read. Or it may be that you are simply a dishonest person. It does seem ingrained since not a single one of your posts does not have at least one misrepresentation.

But enough! It is all here in black and white.

It has been fun.

You can tell the Jews on this thread -- they are the ones blaming the victims.

R408, R409, R410 You guys are far too invested in supporting closet cases.

Uniformity works best in the work place. Brush your Hair teeth,shave, put on suit and straight facade. The work place is not the place to let it all hang out. Diversity is a burden that should not be imposed on others.

R412 Your statement almost sounds like you deem them the scourge of the earth! Rather than thinking of them as traitorous people guilty of high crimes, perhaps think of them as less fortunate, trapped somewhat even if temporarily, or on the converse clever people who tricked naïve hateful types and effectively threw them off their target. Not all people who choose to keep their private lives private at work are self-loathing inauthentic types. Rather we should support all gay people.

R414 I've met many closet cases , from the 'it would kill mother!' type to the bro who doesn't want to be linked with 'sissies' to the selectively out type who doesn't want to rock the boat and the thing they have in common is fear, fear of rejection from family or by society at large, either socially or at work, their motivations are plain and ones they can rationalize. I don't have the strong feelings about it you ascribe to me, it is not a hanging crime but it isn't admirable either and by their actions they are not supportive of gay people and can therefore not be surprised if they lack support from the rest of us who are. I don't doubt some have horrendous circumstances to overcome, but some are just cowardly, in any case living inauthentically to make your own life easier is an understandable human failing but it is a negative and I'd rather not condone or encourage it as it perpetuates the idea that being gay is wrong.

Well said, R415.

And, R414, there's that "keeping their private lives private" nonsense again. It's not that closeted people are "private"; it's that they are afraid. I don't hate closeted people at all, but I don't have a lot of respect for them -- though I acknowledge that there are some extreme cases where a person really has to stay closested, but those are rare.

People who are not closeted are not necessarily telling people details of their private lives, anymore than a straight man who mentions his wife is sharing details of his private life. If a married straight actively avoided mentioning that he has a wife, everybody would think that was bizarre.

R415/R416 again assumes, or takes for granted they WILL be well-received... Your acknowledging "extreme cases" is somewhat nice and awfully big of you, but it is for those in question to make such decisions. This is why you, et. al seem to be so bloody hard-nosed about it. In certain circles, your extreme cases are the norm. This you continually fail to realise while taking the high ground, looking down upon your felliw gays making pronouncements upon their integrity or honesty. it is much more about survival, rather than perpetuating the idea that being gay is wrong. You lack the ability to be objective, and that is chiefly why I deem you judgemental and sanctimonious. Several here painfully remind me why I have so few gay male friends. Whether you truly feel these people are beneath you or not, or merely enjoy a robust debate; I hope you treat them respectfully and kindly when you suspect you encounter a closeted person on the job.

I strongly feel the take away lesson from this thread is many of us need learn to become more familiar with the definition of humility, as well as putting the virtue into practise .

It is not 1950 R417/ R418 You appear morbidly occupied with the ( as you see them ) perilous circumstances awaiting unmasked gays. If anyone here is sanctimonious it is you, your holier than thou pronouncements on gay life just don't hold water, especially when you can't disguise the disdain you hold it in, I think that may explain why you ' have so few gay male friends '. Your demand for closet cases to be treated with kid gloves ignores the fact they reject gay life themselves, you ask that closet cases be treated as 'fellow gays' but if they don't acknowledge themselves as such how can you, or they, expect it? If gay people had practiced the 'humility' you pontificate about there would be no gay rights at all.

R419 Need I remind you the operative words in the thread's title is "at work".... It isn't fair minded to lump them in with the worst case imaginable: self loathing, in denial, not out with family or friends. I refuse to see the world or others' life experience as black and white, but rather beige, griege, and shades of grey. I'm not 1950's at all, hardly as I was not even born then! LATE Sixties vintage speaking here. I just don't segregate gay people into opposing camps, where some are worthy of less respect and compassion. I don't put bi or trans people in separate camps either, as we're all in this together, being not the norm or majority, sexually.

Yet again the red herring of Wife thrown into the mix @ R116. OP is NOT married, nor were the (younger) men I call friends, whom I was specifically defending. They do not even have LT boyfriends or "partners". Sheesh, you ought to know your arguments are weak when you continually bring up facts or situations not analogous to the OP's life scenario presented here, or the choices of the three mates I respect.

Meant ^R416

R420 I just don't see there are enough life or death cases of gay people at work risking anything much in this day and age to warrant encouraging people to remain 'private' at work. It is a horrible situation to live with, second guessing what people think, re-gendering stories and basically lying to fit in with a homophobic environment. If someone is totally trapped with no real choice then they are in a pitiable situation indeed, but most just want a quiet life without having to defend themselves against sniggering jokes and clumsy stereotypes. People will live their own way as they are entitled to, but I'd sooner encourage closet cases to own who they are and challenge their boundaries in all situations and that includes work ( as many , many have before and in much more hostile times ) than meekly accept their lot as being considered less than.

R85

I'm reading all this wondering how to set boundaries about questions future co-workers can ask me about my sex life without appearing too defensive. I'm long term unemployed and I've only been semi-out in the workplace before. In fact I want the kind of job where people are diverse and interesting enough to not ask too many questions like that.

R425, no one should be asking you about your sex life, no matter how out you are. If they do, report the motherfuckers.

I'm trying to start a new career network in a small industry to get out of unemployment. I did report someone once a long time ago and he got sacked but he was really beyond the pale anyway. My co-workers still had a funny attitude about it.

Seriously, why would you debate setting boundaries about sharing details of your sex life? That has no place at work.

Part of why being out matters is that it allows you to share in the same human dignity that everyone else has. Talking about sex takes away that dignity.

For sure.