How did Scarlett 'splain it all to Frank Kennedy, afterwards?

She didn't explain shit to him because Frank Kennedy was a weak as bitch.

She knew Frank really wanted to get close to Rhett Butler’s big dick, and wouldn’t raise a fuss.

True story: but the actor who plays Frank Kennedy in GWTW is Meatloaf's father. That scene where Big Sam saves Scarlett? They were going to score it with Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell for next year's 80th Anniversary GWTW Super Future Edition DVD/Blue Ray release.

But cooler heads prevailed.

At least she feels a little remorse, and gets smashed after she gets Frank KILLED.

As I recall, in the book , Frank was too much of a gentleman to bring up Scarlett's chicanery. Besides, Frank was just as guilty as Scarlett, so, he could hardly cast stones.

Well, Frank didn't do anything wrong, IMO...other than, in hindsight, not check and confirm that Suellen was INDEED engaged. Who would imagine someone's sister would lie about a thing like that?

I wonder how they dealt with this in the book.

r4, such baloney! She didn't splash any on her puss.

Both the book and movie left me with the distinct impression that Scarlett didn't really like sex, except with Rhett, and she fought that tooth and nail. She did use her pussy to get her way though.

Off topic, I know, but just thought I'd throw it out.

She would have liked sex with Ashley, but she never got the chance.

(Trivia: When the makeup people were done trying to de-age Leslie Howard and put him in his elaborate Confederate Army uniform, the actor said he felt he looked like "a fairy doorman at the Beverly Wiltshire Hotel".)

Agreed with R1 - Scarlet wouldn't let such a minor detail bother her in the least - she might of casually stated "Oh, I must have been mistaken" and that was that - What I've always wondered is whether or not Scarlet let first Charles Hamilton and then Frank Kennedy HIT IT! They were married, after all. Anyone know?

Say what you want about me, bit Scarlett's the REAL whore!

Frank didn't bother checking with Suellen because he was so chuffed about bagging Scarlett, which pretty much made him as guilty in the whole affair as Scarlett was.

I always appreciated that GWTW (especially the book) pointed out that the women may have been using their wiles, but the men, who were in control of everything, were just as culpable in their own way.

[quote] What I've always wondered is whether or not Scarlet let first Charles Hamilton and then Frank Kennedy HIT IT! They were married, after all. Anyone know?

Try reading the book. Scarlett gets pregnant as a result of both of these marriages.

[quote] she might of

She might HAVE. There is no such word/phrase as "might of."

Daaaaaaaamn, R13 - I had no idea

OH - a thousand thank yous R14 - I humbly beg your forgiveness and I'm full of gratitude for your sharing your grammar prowess - youZ one cool dude

R16 Snark all you want, but you now know what the correct word is, and what you should use.

If you choose to willfully ignore it, just as all the Trumpers somehow ignored the "gee I should get trained on other things than coal mining" for the last 50 years....well then, that's on you.

Okay - will someone PLEASE give R14, same as R17 some dick already?!!

Fiddle dee dee, all this talk of war!

R18 I get lots of dick, thanks.

That from a man named Leslie, r9.

We love you, R14,R17,R20

In the original book it was quite obvious that Scarlett wasn't that much into sex, in one of the horrible written sequels however the new writer tried to show some of Scarlett's and Rhett's sex life and it was just laughable at best ( having sex while wearing a mask, Rhett licking jam off Scarlett's cheek, Melanie researching about possiblities of birth control and writing about it in a letter to Rhett's sister).

In the book, Scarlett has several children and she's a neglectful mother and rarely sees them. She had at least one with her first and maybe two or three with Frank.

Dear god, R23, that sounds like total dreck.

The reality of Scarlett is that she looked down in contempt at Belle Watkins but she was no better, perhaps even worse since Belle seemed kind and was a better mother.

Right, R13.

These hand-wringing parvenus probably don't even know about Katie Colum Butler, or how much Rhett really was abandoning in the walk-out. I liked Cat.

I dimly recall her two kids left out of the movie were Ella and Wade.

They never figured in the action and I think got shipped off to school early, so they're not developed or central to the action or anything, like that spoiled little harpie Bonnie is.

(I don't like kids all that much...and have to admit I always smirk a bit when Bonnie breaks her disobedient little neck. I'm like, [italic] "Hmmm...happy now?")

Oh honeychile, this is a MOVIE. Do you really worry about these things?

"Why am I going upstairs into that attic?" Tippi asked Alfred Hitchcock. "Because I told you to." THAT'S how movies are made.

Is the Mammy character more pronounced and prevalent in the book as well? I love Mammy because I understand that she was the only one who knew Scarlet from front to back, like the back of her own hand and therefore she was the only one Scarlet could never fool

It just ain't fittin'

Many PoC loathe the book and movie.

R28, Mammy is somewhat more of a force in the novel, her character is also more assertive, particularly after the war. At one point, Scarlett & Mammy are bickering about Scarlett's upcoming marriage to Rhett, Scarlett tells Mammy she's forgetting "her place", Mammy's reply: "High time, too". Scarlett also tries to send Mammy back to Tara, Mammy informs Scarlett that she's free & won't be sent away. However, you never learn much about Mammy's background, other than she came to Georgia from South Carolina with Ellen (Scarlett's mother).

As I recall from the book, and as some posters mentioned, Scarlett had a son by her first marriage and a daughter by her second.

Rhett was kind to both of his stepchildren and spent time with both. He was a good father to them. Better a father than Scarlett was a mother.

I seem to recall that when Rhett left at the end of the book, he made it clear that he would come back periodically to spend time with the children.

It's been a long, long time since I read it. Given how long the actual length of the film was, I understand why not everything could be included, but I always thought that Rhett's attachment to Scarlett's first two children was important. Instead, the film chose to focus solely on Bonnie.

Frank found out Scarlett lied but he would never call her on it because a gentleman would never call a lady a liar. Everyone else knew Frank was tricked but they never brought it up either. It just wouldn't have been polite to point out that he was an idiot for thinking Scarlett was interested in anything other than his money.

[quote]R27 Oh honeychile, this is a MOVIE.

Wait... [italic] what are you saying ? ? ?

I remember reading years ago how the studio made a conscious decision to nix her first two kids - the boy by Melanie’s brother Charles Hamilton and the girl by frank Kennedy - because they feared the audience would really lose all sympathy with Scarlett.

The book is long and there’s more space to spend on nuance and intricacies of character. Film’s a different medium and the story is fairly truncated. Having the extra two kids - and having her pretty much neglect them - was thought to be something they just couldn’t risk.

As it is - they’re hardly missed. A few other secondary characters are missing or get a lot less time than in the books as well. But the kids being treated poorly was considered a huge turn-off. It was thought audiences would forgive the beautiful and tempestuous Scarlett a lot of her sins - but not that of being a bad mother.

TOMORROW...

R35 Well, that's true. Plus without a squalling brat to tote around during the Downtrodden Tara sequences, in the film she can just concentrate on Melanie and the plantation, etc.

She had enough to deal with, story-wise...

I love this scene....

On first viewing that scene, as a kid, I didn't realize she was actually throwing up.

The movie is a love story between Scarlett and Melanie.

Frank wasn't the brightest bulb. And anyway, they didn't often marry for love at that time in that society. I'm sure Scarlett was still considered quite a catch. She was horrible, but if Frank hadn't been such a pussy I imagine she would have been more tolerable.

Doesn't Scarlett refer to him as "that old maid in britches"?

Yes, r41. But to be fair, that was when he was poor.

As a trophy wife, Scarlett was good for business, and that more than made up for her telling a fib. Plus, Frank got regular sexual access to Scarlett’s handmaid, Mammy, and that took Frank’s mind off of Scarlett’s mood swings.

Scarlett never explained. And once Frank was killed, “defending Scarlett’s honor”, she was pissed off at the prospect of having to wear black again, as she did when her 1st mealymouthed husband was killed in the war.

For those of you who haven’t read the book, I highly recommend it. Margaret Mitchell truly created a masterpiece, and there are parts that will just have you laughing out loud.

The other really cool thing about the book is how much you learn about the civil war, and its aftermath.

From the book

Just how early in his married life Frank learned of the deception Scarlett had used in marrying him, no one ever knew. Perhaps the truth dawned on him when Tony Fontaine, obviously fancy free, came to Atlanta on business. Perhaps it was told him more directly in letters from his sister in Jonesboro who was astounded at his marriage. Certainly he never learned from Suellen herself. She never wrote him and naturally he could not write her and explain. What good would explanations do anyway, now that he was married? He writhed inwardly at the thought that Suellen would never know the truth and would always think he had senselessly jilted her. Probably everyone else was thinking this too and criticizing him. It certainly put him in an awkward position. And he had no way of clearing himself, for a man couldn't go about saying he had lost his head about a woman--and a gentleman couldn't advertise the fact that his wife had entrapped him with a lie.

Scarlett was his wife and a wife was entitled to the loyalty of her husband. Furthermore, he could not bring himself to believe she had married him coldly and with no affection for him at all. His masculine vanity would not permit such a thought to stay long in his mind. It was more pleasant to think she had fallen so suddenly in love with him she had been willing to lie to get him. But it was all very puzzling. He knew he was no great catch for a woman half his age and pretty and smart to boot, but Frank was a gentleman and he kept his bewilderment to himself. Scarlett was his wife and he could not insult her by asking awkward questions which, after all, would not remedy matters.

Not that Frank especially wanted to remedy matters, for it appeared that his marriage would be a happy one. Scarlett was the most charming and exciting of women and he thought her perfect in all things--except that she was so headstrong. Frank learned early in his marriage that so long as she had her own way, life could be very pleasant, but when she was opposed-- Given her own way, she was as gay as a child, laughed a good deal, made foolish little jokes, sat on his knee and tweaked his beard until he vowed he felt twenty years younger. She could be unexpectedly sweet and thoughtful, having his slippers toasting at the fire when he came home at night, fussing affectionately about his wet feet and interminable head colds, remembering that he always liked the gizzard of the chicken and three spoonfuls of sugar in his coffee. Yes, life was very sweet and cozy with Scarlett--as long as she had her own way.

The conversation wouldn't be awkward because the conversation would never occur. Frank would be too much of a gentleman to ever confront Scarlett about it. And besides, he was married to Scarlett O'Hara, the belle of the ball. I'm sure he realized what happened shortly afterwards.

Re the 2 other children, Wade and Ella

from the novel:

On Wade: " And for the first time she was glad that she was going to have a child. If it were only a boy! A fine boy, not a spiritless little creature like Wade."

On Ella: "Ella! It annoyed Scarlett to realize that Ella was a silly child but she undoubtedly was. She couldn't keep her little mind on one subject any longer than a bird could stay on one twig and even when Scarlett tried to tell her stories, Ella went off at childish tangents, interrupting with questions about matters that had nothing to do with the story and forgetting what she had asked long before Scarlett could get the explanation out of her mouth. "

Scarlett on her sisters: "She looked at the thin forms, tossing before her, the sheets about them moist and dark from dripping water. She did not like Suellen. She saw it now with a sudden clarity. She had never liked her. She did not especially love Carreen--she could not love anyone who was weak. But they were of her blood, part of Tara. No, she could not let them live out their lives in their aunts' homes as poor relations. An O'Hara a poor relation, living on charity bread and sufferance! Oh, never that!"

If I recall, Scarlett's first two children both took after their fathers. Wade was timid and Ella was dull and plodding. Only Bonnie had Scarlett's headstrong character.

EVERYONE wanted Scarlett's pussy -- no questions asked.

Just ask the laborers on the road to Decatur!

Scarlett was a bitch, and all of us bitches loved her for it.

Say what you will, but she always looked after her family. Had it not been for her, who knows what would’ve happened to the rest of them.

They would have become poor white trash like Cathleen Calvert

Apart from Careen who would have ended up in a convent anyway

R50, Scarlett was an enabler of her family's co-dependence.

Frank always knew Scarlett was lying. He had his eyes on the scarlet prize.

I like that passage at r45. The only one who ever truly stood in her way ended up in a shallow grave in the arbor at Tara. Otherwise, she ran right over everyone to get what she wanted. When I was a kid in a very unhappy home I admired Scarlett but as an adult I recognizer her limitations.

Yeah, as a kid I admired Scarlett, but now it's Melanie.

Scarlett told Frank that Suellen was going to marry Tony Fontaine. During her seduction of Frank she is on tenterhooks lest Suellen write Frank a letter talking of their impending marriage. After a whirlwind courtship Frank marries Scarlett, who had done a real number on him by pretending to be dumb and helpless and in awe of his masculinity. Later the unmarried Tony Fontaine comes to Atlanta and Frank realizes Scarlett duped him. He also feels very badly because Suellen must think he dumped her for her own sister for no reason at all. Of course Frank is a gentleman, so he just accepts his situation and try to make the best of it. Later Suellen writes Scarlett a letter telling her off, but she never confronts Frank about why he so suddenly jilted her, after making it clear that he wanted to marry her as soon as he had a little money put away. Later in the novel Suellen married Will Benteen, an ill soldier who is dumped off at Tara and is nursed back to health by the family. He's honest, hard working, smart and a great help at Tara, but he's a "Cracker", so Suellen is marrying beneath her, according to the standards of her ancestors. And Frank is left is an awful marriage to Scarlett. Frank Kennedy is one of the most sympathetic characters in GWTW; a very nice man who is totally screwed over by Scarlett.

Scarlett told Frank that Suellen abruptly married Tony Fontaine because she was tired of waiting for Frank to marry and was afraid she'd be an old maid. That was the only explanation she gave for Suellen jilting him.

As for Scarlett not liking sex...well, she'd never HAD good sex so she wasn't too keen on it. Her brief marriage to Charles Hamilton was a disaster, sex-wise. On their wedding night she screams at him to stay away from her so he spends the night sleeping in a chair. Later they do have sex (which results in her son Wade Hampton) but she considers Charles's intimacies "disgusting" and "embarrassing." Frank is much older than she so he probably isn't any great shakes as a lover, either, although they do have a child, the brain-damaged Ella (she's brain damaged because Scarlett drinks brandy during her pregnancy). She marries Rhett and they have a daughter, the monstrous little Bonnie Blue, but she doesn't seem to have experienced real passion until the night Rhett gets really drunk and carries her up the stairs and fucks the shit out of her. She thinks he loves her after their night of passion and thinks she's got him under her thumb now. But he disappears for a few days after their intense coupling and when he come back he's very blase and tells her he's been at Belle Watling's. Enragea, she tells him never to come into her bedroom again. He says he won't: "I promise never to bother you again. That's final." And he meant it. All those swooning romantics who always believed that Rhett and Scarlett would get back together should have enough sense to realize that when Rhett Butler said that he meant i, and would not go back on it. He was done with Scarlett, sexually. And in all other ways too, as he tells her at the end of the novel: "My dear, I don't give a damn."

"

Scarlett only married Frank to save Tara. She married a man she didn't love so her family could keep their home. She did what she had to do to provide for her family. She wasn't happy about being in that position, but her father went nutty and Ashley was useless so it was up to her to step up. Yeah, it sucked for Suellen but as Scarlett reasoned, if Suellen had married Frank, Suellen would not have cared if they lost Tara and who knows what would have happened to them. And it all worked out better for Suellen in the end anyway.

It's easy to just say Scarlett was a bitch but she really was much more complex than that.

Your timeline is a little off R56. Scarlett decides after having Bonnie that she doesn't want any more children. She never liked children, tho she did feel an affection for Bonnie, and pregnancy made her gain weight. But most importantly Melanie couldn't have any more children and if she decided to not sleep with Rhett any more she and Ashley could in a way be faithful to each other. At least in her mind anyway.

That's when she turns Rhett away and tells him she intends to lock her bedroom door. He tells her he doesn't care, he "shan't be lonely" (Belle) and no lock would him away. Well, one night after being deprived for a while Rhett decides to take things into his own hands and gives it to her good then leaves, taking Bonnie with him. Scarlett gets pregnant from this night but falls down the steps and miscarries.

So did Scarlet and Ashley ever have sex in the book?

No R59.

Also Suellen is directly responsible for Gerald’s death which happens much later in the book (Scarlett is pregnant with Frank’s child). Suellen taunts Gerald with memories of Ellen and schemes to get money by having retributions paid by the government. She tries to have him take an out that he did not support the South and as a foreign born citizen ,without sons and had never given aid and comfort to the enemy. She takes him to sign the oath and in a moment of semi-clarity, Gerald refuses . Suellen harangues him in town to the horror of their neighbors, gets him drunk and persuades him to take the oath. Gloating she mentions the Slatterys and other white trash signing the same oath,Gerald realizes again what is going on. He cusses her out, leaps on a horse and rides back to Tara. The horse throws him.

At the funeral Ashley delivers the eulogy and looks to Will to speak up. He announces he is marrying Suellen ,stares down the crowd and who provides additional comments which comfort to the crowd. He then suggests the pregnant Scarlett be taken out of the sun. All of which diverts the mourners’ anger towards Suellen.

Suellen is referred to as a pariah and comes off as a nasty piece of work.

[quote]For those of you who haven’t read the book, I highly recommend it. Margaret Mitchell truly created a masterpiece, and there are parts that will just have you laughing out loud.

It is one of the best told stories of all time. Just a triumph of story telling. She was a gifted writer. And, agree, I laughed aloud often.

Didn't MM say that Scarlett didn't get Rhett back?

[quote]Is the Mammy character more pronounced and prevalent in the book as well?

There's a scene in the book that I love. Early on, Mammy is mad at Scarlett because she's been bad. Mammy knows it's not her place to tell Mrs. O'Hara about the bad behavior. So when the family gathers for evening prayers, Mammy is praying outside in the hallway very loudly listing Scarlett's sins and asking God to forgive her. Mammy knows that Mrs. O'Hara can hear her. To me, Mammy comes across as one of the best characters in the book.

As far as I know, she always claimed she didn't know, but she certainly didn't say. Lost in the ending was his line (roughly paraphrased) 'Fine then, I'll come back often enough to keep gossip down.'). So he exit was not permanent. What he was telling her was that the marriage was over as an emotional bond, but it's always viewed as a permanent physical departure. It wasn't. Lost too is that he loved Bonnie so much because he loved Scarlett so much, but given she didn't respond the way he wanted and hoped, he invested all his feeling in the child.

Scarlett was somewhat changed at the end of the novel. She had insight into almost everything. How that manifested I don't have a theory. If he did come back as he said he would I could see them finding some common ground and reuniting but I don't really know if she could overcome all that had gone wrong between them either.

I think one thing to remember when judging Scarlett is that she is 16 when the story begins. She's only 28 when the book ends. She did mature a lot during that time, for sure. Ashley was Scarlett's childhood crush who she held on to for way too long. She had to grow up so quickly in so many ways, the one childish thing that she held on to was her infatuation with Ashley. Rhett was her real love. Melanie knew that, and that's why Melanie never felt threatened by Scarlett. Also notice how Melanie replaces Ellen as the book progresses. Scarlett didn't realize this all until Melanie was gone.

When she gets back to Tara after Melanie had Beau, she has to take on all the responsibility for her son Wade, her daft father, her two sisters who were recovering from typhoid, her sister-in-law who almost died in childbirth, little baby Beau and the few slaves who remained. She was maybe 19 by then? She had to take care of them all while mourning the loss of her mother. And she did it. Whatever faults she may have had she had a lot dumped on her when she was very young and she got them all thru the most brutal circumstances of the Civil War.

Mitchell said she based her story on the stories her older relatives told her about things that happened during the war and it's aftermath. It would have been amazing to listen in on those stories.

Lucille Ball was going to play Scarlett, but Gary talked her out of it.

Scarlett O'Hara! That bitch is my Spirit Animal!

Mammy is clearly the smartest and most important character. She knows the family, their strengths and weaknesses, and she always knows what to do. One of the greatest characters in literature.

Hattie also was the most engrossing and interesting character in the movie. All of the actors are good, but Melanie, Scarlett and Mammy are truly the leads.

R56 I always thought that Ella had FAS.

David O Selznick tested many actresses for the role of Scarlet. Those of note: Paulette Goddard, Lana Turner, Joan Bennett, Jean Aurthur, Tallulah Bankhead. Betty Davis was considered. Crawford wanted it. He knew he had his Scarlet when he tested Vivien Leigh, and to this day I cannot think of any other in the role. She played it to perfection.

Margaret Mitchell intimated what eventually happens to Scarlett and Rhett. Like many women during WWII, she wrote letters to soldiers. One wrote back asking if Scarlett & Rhett got back together. Mitchell responded while story ended where ended, she guessed that Rhett would find a less demanding woman to love.

I thought MM was quoted as saying Scarlett didn't appreciate a good man (Rhett) until she lost him.

Well, at the very end of the film, Scarlet clearly intends to get Rhett back and says as much ending with "After all, tomorrow is another day." Me? I think she got him back, and finally behaved as the woman SHE deserved to be.

For awhile, they were considering Alicia Rhett as Scarlett. She ended up playing India Wilkes. And never made another movie.

[quote] I seem to recall that when Rhett left at the end of the book, he made it clear that he would come back periodically to spend time with the children.

Ha! That kind of puts a damper on his famous exit.

Scarlett was the original female anti-heroine, which is why America loved her. She was the first woman allowed to be BAD, and unrepentant. She knew what she wanted, and she was willing to do whatever it took to achieve it. People are so wrong to class GWTW in the moonlight and magnolia old south mythology. That novel and movie, broke down those old myths. The men did not rule Southern society in GWTW it was the women, Ellen, Scarlett, Melanie, Belle, etc... Scarlett was not the sweet loving Southern Belle of myth, she was determined and complicated. Even the "good" girl Melanie did not fit the docile belle, she was strong in her own way, giving birth while Atlanta burned, killing yankee soldiers, publicly forgiving Scarlett, etc... Mammy was not some servile creature, she spoke her mind and was the character that was "better" than all the white characters and was the only one who was not afraid to tell Scarlett off. Also, Big Sam, did not rape a white woman, but saved her from being raped, which of course is the opposite of "The Birth of A Nation" and other such works. GWTW was subversive we just have forgotten how subversive it really is.

[quote]Melanie did not fit the docile belle, she was strong in her own way, giving birth while Atlanta burned, killing yankee soldiers, publicly forgiving Scarlett, etc

Not to mention that she said she would acknowledge Belle Watling in public.

"Your timeline is a little off [R56]. Scarlett decides after having Bonnie that she doesn't want any more children. She never liked children, tho she did feel an affection for Bonnie, and pregnancy made her gain weight. But most importantly Melanie couldn't have any more children and if she decided to not sleep with Rhett any more she and Ashley could in a way be faithful to each other. At least in her mind anyway.

That's when she turns Rhett away and tells him she intends to lock her bedroom door. He tells her he doesn't care, he "shan't be lonely" (Belle) and no lock would him away. Well, one night after being deprived for a while Rhett decides to take things into his own hands and gives it to her good then leaves, taking Bonnie with him. Scarlett gets pregnant from this night but falls down the steps and miscarries."

Scarlett tells Rhett she doesn't want anymore children only after getting the impression from Ashley that he hates the idea of her going to bed with Rhett. He thinks Rhett has corrupted her (she's cruel and heartless when it comes to the poor convicts who are forced to labor for her) but of course Rhett had nothing to do with her being such a bitch. She's besotted with the notion that Ashley is jealous of Rhett and the idea of she and Ashley being "true" to each other despite being married to other people. So she tells Rhett she doesn't want any more children as a way of saying she doesn't want sex with him anymore. He tells her it will work no hardship on him ("Keep your chaste bed, my bed") and appears and seems to not much care. Almost immediately Scarlett regrets what she did: "She would miss the long amusing conversations in bed with Rhett when the ember of his cigar glowed in the dark. She would miss the comfort of his arms when she woke terrified from dreams that she was running in cold mist. Suddenly she felt very unhappy, and leaning her head on the arm of her chair, she cried."

Rhett doesn't fuck Scarlett silly because he'd been "deprived for a while." He hadn't been deprived at all when it came to sex, He got plenty of it from Belle Watling. He was just mad as hell because he'd been informed by Archie (a very interesting character in the book that is absent in the movie) that Scarlett had been caught in an embrace with Ashley. Angry and jealous and hurt, he wanted to hurt her with rough sex. He did hurt her; but she reveled in it, the "ecstasy of surrender." Scarlett had never had it like THAT before. And she never would again.

One of the most refreshing things about Scarlett is, despite going through hell & high water, it doesn't change her at all, she's still the same spoiled, stubborn child she was at the the beginning of the novel. Scarlett simply trades one obsession (obtaining Ashley) for another (getting Rhett back).

R79 I never said Rhett was deprived of sex. He was deprived of Scarlett. I indicated that Rhett knew he could turn to Belle for sex and that he wasn't planning on being lonely.

You basically just said everything I did with more detail. Thanks.

R80, I think she changed greatly... she had more insight into love and loss, she understood there was no substance to her fixation on Ashley, that Rhett had loved her and she had loved him without understanding it, that Melanie was as much her protector as she was ever Melanie's.... but her fundamental doggedness, stubbornness, strength of will remained.

It's not well known, but a serious contender to play Scarlett was Mae West.

I guess if 45 y,old Leslie Howard could play Romeo, 48y old Howard could play Ashley. But he's too old. That same year, he played a married man who DOES run off with another woman, in "Intermezzo," the American debut of luminous Ingrid Bergman.

The role really needed a TRUE southerner.

But at least it wasn't played by a Yankee!

There are a lot of casting stories out there, most of them not true and all used to keep up the publicity. There was a huge publicity campaign surrounding the casting of Scarlett. The only really serious contender was Paulette Goddard until Leigh came along.

Originally, Hattie McDaniel was going to play Aunt Pittypat and Laura Hope Crews was going to play Mammy. But the actresses thought it would be fun to "push the envelope " and decided to switch parts.

[quote]He was just mad as hell because he'd been informed by Archie (a very interesting character in the book that is absent in the movie) that Scarlett had been caught in an embrace with Ashley. Angry and jealous and hurt, he wanted to hurt her with rough sex. He did hurt her; but she reveled in it, the "ecstasy of surrender." Scarlett had never had it like THAT before. And she never would again.

The ironic things is that embrace was actually innocent. She is caught off-guard by a wave of nostalgia for what was lost, and Ashley was comforting her. It was not one of her attempted seductions. She is also starting to subconsciously realize she does not love Ashley.

The movie makes it seem like at the end she suddenly realizes she does not love Ashley and she does love Rhett and Melanie at Melanie's death bed. In the book you are constantly in her head, so you see some subtle changes of how she feels about the three people, even if she does not realize it. She and Melanie actually spend a fair amount of time together after Melanie cuts off one of her relatives for bad-mouthing Scarlet after the misconstrued embrace.

I also think in the book Ashley does give her more missed signals. I would not say he leads her on, but you do get the impression he is attracted to her.

Ellen's backstory and tragic love life is interesting in the book as well.

Originally Hattie McDaniel was going to play Belle Watling. In that scene where Prissy is yelling up to Captain Butler, Hattie would have opened the shutters and said, "Shut your mouth, girl. This is a respectable business."

Originally Hattie McDaniel was going to play Scarlett but no one bought her delivery of 'I'll never be hungry again.'

Leslie Howard was SO unlike what Ashley Wilkes was like in the novel. In the novel Ashley was YOUNG at the beginning of the story, only 19 or 20, about the same age as the Tarleton twins. He was tall, slim, handsome. Although a dreamer he was not weak; he had strong conviction and ideals, he was a courageous soldier. He was nothing like the prissy, middle-aged Leslie Howard.

Why would Scarlett even need to marry Frank since she and Suellen were sisters? Couldn't she have just said to Frank, 'since we're going to be brother and sister-in-law once you marry Suellen, could you please loan me $300 to pay the taxes on Tara?'

Why did she need to marry him to get the money??

Because she knew Suellen wouldn't let Frank give them the money. That's a big part of her rationalization for what she did and in fact she's probably right on that point.

Joan Crawford originally auditioned for Mammy.

"Why would Scarlett even need to marry Frank since she and Suellen were sisters? Couldn't she have just said to Frank, 'since we're going to be brother and sister-in-law once you marry Suellen, could you please loan me $300 to pay the taxes on Tara?'

At first she considers the idea of asking him for a loan for the taxes but then realizes he wants to marry Suellen as soon as possible as soon as he gets a little money ahead so she knows he won't be inclined to give her $300. She knows if Suellen and Frank marry Suellen would never allow him to spend any money on Tara (Frank would no doubt have done what Suellen wanted). So the only way to get the money is to marry Frank. Although she marries Frank in order to get money to keep Tara she does feel some fondness towards him. But she still treats him like shit. That was typical Scarlett behavior, bullying people.

I have a book called "Memo From David O. Selznick" which has some interesting correspondence from him about the film. His first choice for Rhett was Ronald Coleman.

He writes, "What do you think about Ronald Coleman for the lead? He seemed very interested indeed and we discussed matter of southern accent."

In the same letter, he is thinking about Miriam Hopkins or Tallulah Bankhead for Scarlett.

The book starts off by saying that Scarlett was not a beautiful woman. I think they all realized that in glorious technicolor they needed someone who would light up the screen.

Neither Clark Gable nor Leslie Howard wanted to do he movie. They paid Clark a fortune so he could divorce his fat, ugly wife and marry Carole Lombard. Leslie was promised an associate producer role on Intermezzo if he played Ashley.

Their reluctance showed in their performance. Howard didn't disguise his English accent and Gable credited Alicia Rhett for helping him adopt a Charleston accent but you obviously don't hear one in the movie.

R96- Things changed down the road - by Jan. 1937 his list of possible actors is 1. Gable, 2. Gary Cooper, 3. Errol Flynn.

Wow, I can't see Gary Cooper in that role at all.

Leslie Howard was quite a pussy hound. Not kidding. DL fave Merle Oberon was a fling, when they made "Scarlet Pimpernel." During the war, he was on some kind of intelligence mission for Britain and the Germans shot down the plane he was in.

Ona Munsen, who played Belle, was family. A few years later she took her life.

Mary Anderson later was in Hitchcock's "Life Boat." When she asked him what was her best side, he said, "My dear, you're sitting on it. "

Did you know that not a single television channel is showing GWTW for the entire year of 2018? Due to the PC brigade, no doubt. They probably realize they'd be inundated with complaints if they show the movie now that it's been deemed racist. An incredible shame, as it's probably Hollywood's greatest film.

[quote]R68 Didn't MM say that Scarlett didn't get Rhett back?

I don't know that the author ever commented on this, but when asked about it once, Leigh said she thought Scarlett became a better person, but didn't get Rhett back.

Which is a ridiculous. Of COURSE she got Rhet back!! She didn't meet ANY challenges she couldn't get around, eventually!

Rewatching the film, one thing that's really great about it is that Gable and Leigh have fantastic chemistry together (which is odd, because they really didn't especially like each other much.) But even when you see them in this silent makeup test together where they're not even speaking, there's something that just meshes about them. He's so laid back and she's so....bristly. It's like they're quietly grating on each other yet turning each other on at the same time. They really do seem like a couple.

One thing doesn't add up - if Rhett was so experienced and skilled and Scarlett had the capacity to respond, why didn't he win her over sexually long before the rape scene?

Also, as dramatic and exciting as the rape scene was, I think it did a lot of cultural harm in that it no doubt encourages men to think that women want to be taken by force. Perhaps some accused rapists use the "Rhett Butler defense" in court.

In the novel it is said that the letter SueEllen wrote to Scarlett after the wedding was full of grammar mistakes.

Yes, Sue Ellen was a pariah after Gerald's death. At the funeral no one from the former main Southern families addressed her. Some even went to speak to Pork but nobody to her.

Was Pork getting his massive uncut sizemeat serviced on a regular basis?

Scarlett: "You've got a new baby, Pork?"

Babies, babies, babies. Why did God make so many babies? But no, God didn't make them. Stupid people made them.

Pork: "Yas'm, big fat black boy. "

Whom was Pork porking?

R105, also: "engorged," "throbbing" and "glistening." And "veiny."

In the beginning when Gerald is returning from the Twelve Oaks, in he book he is at the Wilkes to buy Pork's wife Dilcey (and her daughter Prissy) from the Wilkes so that Pork can be with his wife.

Her father had ridden over to Twelve Oaks, the Wilkes plantation, that afternoon to offer to buy Dilcey, the broad wife of his valet, Pork. Dilcey was head woman and midwife at Twelve Oaks, and, since the marriage six months ago, Pork had deviled his master night and day to buy Dilcey, so the two could live on the same plantation. That afternoon, Gerald, his resistance worn thin, had set out to make an offer for Dilcey.

....

"Bought her I did, and the price has ruined me. Bought her and her little wench, Prissy. John Wilkes was for almost giving them away, but never will I have it said that Gerald O'Hara used friendship in a trade. I made him take three thousand for the two of them."

"In the name of Heaven, Pa, three thousand! And you didn't need to buy Prissy!"

"Has the time come when me own daughters sit in judgment on me?" shouted Gerald rhetorically. "Prissy is a likely little wench and so--"

"I know her. She's a sly, stupid creature," Scarlett rejoined calmly, unimpressed by his uproar. "And the only reason you bought her was because Dilcey asked you to buy her."

Gerald looked crestfallen and embarrassed, as always when caught in a kind deed, and Scarlett laughed outright at his transparency.

"Well, what if I did? Was there any use buying Dilcey if she was going to mope about the child? Well, never again will I let a darky on this place marry off it. It's too expensive. Well, come on, Puss, let's go in to supper.

[quote] I think it did a lot of cultural harm in that it no doubt encourages men to think that women want to be taken by force.

The story is called "Gone With The Wind" meaning that things that were done one way have now gone.

If Margaret Mitchell hadn't died at 48, would she have been able to write another novel as good as GWTW? Or was she like Harper Lee and had only one good story in her?

GWTW was a phenomenon.... I doubt she could have matched it. What would. And it seemed the business of GWTW sort of took over her life after publication.... copyright enforcement. etc. So I think she could have - she was a gifted writer - but she was a tough act to follow and I am not sure when or if she would have gotten around to it.

Little known fact about Margaret Mitchell: She created a scholarship fund for Morehouse College, paying the tuition and fees for as many as 40 to 50 future African American medical doctors on the way, way down low. Her being benefactress of this gift remained unknown for decades after her death. She had also quietly worked for a time to desegregate Atlanta's police department.

[quote] Leslie Howard was SO unlike what Ashley Wilkes was like in the novel.

In the top ten, if not top five, of badly miscast roles.

Which one of the Tarleton twins performed 'oral love' on Pork?

Scarlett was a dishonorable woman who should have not dared to marry a good Hamilton boy like Charles

I wanted both the Tarleton twins in me quite deeply.

I once remarked to a VERY SOUTHERN friend, that when I saw GWTW at 4 years old, the only part I remembered was Scarlett killing the Yankee.

Scarlet was acting properly like a well-armed citizen, defending her home against criminals.

In that case the most vile of criminals, the USA Federal government!

Sounds like a classic Southern Belle.

One of the Tarletons was George Reeves, later TV's Superman.

Margaret Mitchell may have show some kindness to Morehead College, but her GWTW novel is an ode to white supremacy. She longs for the good old days before the War and curses the clueless Northern aggressors for laying waste to an idyllic society.

David O Selznick made sure that his movie was much more subtle about Mitchell's views on politics and race.

"curses the clueless Northern aggressors for laying waste to an idyllic society"

I've never read it that way - I thought Mitchell demystified the "idyllic" (stultifyingly dull, hypocritical, stagnant) Southern society - a house of straw which was blown away by the winds of war...

R122 and R121 I am about to find out for myself as I've just downloaded GWTW to my Kindle. I had always meant to read it and I actually picked it up at my local library years ago, but reluctantly put it back after I had just read both Alex Haley's "Roots" and "Queen" back to back - was not in the mood for another long read.

TCM, I believe, ran an hour long documentary about Mitchell several years back. It was quite interesting. It showed her as being quite the 20's flapper rebel (no pun intended). Say what you will, R121, but as the author of the post describing Mitchell's philanthropy toward budding black minds, aiding in the creation of many black doctors, I give her all the credit in the world for having done that much.

"Which is a ridiculous. Of COURSE she got Rhet back!! She didn't meet ANY challenges she couldn't get around, eventually!"

No, she didn't. They were OVAH. Rhett made that plain and clear at the end of the novel. But Scarlett being Scarlett she THINKS she can get him back and no doubt will try. But it really is over, which makes her determination to get Rhett back both admirable and pathetic. It was a perfect ending, Scarlett refusing the give up even when the cause is irretrievably lost.

In Molly Haskell's book "Frankly, Mr Dear" she questioned how “inveterate hopefuls among Mitchell’s fans and the best-selling sequel to the contrary, can anyone over the mental age of fifteen believe that the star-crossed lovers will ‘get together’ one day?" It does seem ridiculous that after all the shit that's gone down between them Scarlet and Rhett will somehow make amends and get back "together" again. In my opinion they never really were "together"; all during their marriage Scarlett was pining for Ashley and Rhett was finding solace with Bell Watling.

Was Clark Gable really a tinymeat, as has been rumored?

Gable grew up near my hometown in a cow town called Cadiz, OH. He was a farm boy, and pretty much a down -to-earth swell guy throughout his lifetime. I read a biography about him probably 20 years ago, and one of the things I remember reading was that he was a "sympathy fuck." The book claimed that he regularly bedded the most unattractive women just to give them the thrill. While other movie stars of the era might lay claim to having been good to their fans by signing autographs for hours on end, they don't hold a candle to what ole Clark did to show his appreciation!

GWTW shows us how weak anyone's house, life, and culture can be in the cross fire of war, and how different people deal with this.

Aunt Pitty Pat was fat and infantile before the war, and remained so even after.

Aunt Pitty was in "a state"

This thread is a prime example as to why I love DL and most of you bitches.

No where else do so many know all about GWTW and Scarlett.

In the novel, right after the War, Uncle Peter run to Tara asking Melanie and Scarlett to go to Atlanta to live with Aunt Pitty.....because it didn't look good for an unmarried woman to live alone. "Folks talk"!

Scarlett (but also Melanie) couldn't contain her laughter because it looked like Pitty was a charming young lady people would have gossiped about if she had lived alone rather than an old fat woman.

"Uncle" Peter was Pitty's slave. And given she was really stupid, he run her household. He was more dominant than Mammy. Towards the beginning of the book, Charles told Scarlett that it was Peter who decided the university he went and when Melanie could go to parties.

Any reference to interracial sex in the novel?

R101, before you go off on your anti-PC tirade, check your facts. TCM, which has exclusive broadcast rights to GWTW, just aired it again last month. It was in select theaters in January. And it's also likely that AMC will air it again, per their arrangement with TCM, as part of their annual Thanksgiving tradition. Chill out.

R131 read the "North and South" books by John Jakes for that.

R131, there's one quick reference I recall to inter-racial sex and sexual abuse of slaves. After the war, Scarlett is either visiting a neighbor or the neighbor, Grandma Fontaine, is at Tara for the funeral of Scarlett's father and she tells Scarlett a scandalous story. Someone tries to hush her and she remarks that it wouldn't be the first time someone had "a yellow baby", meaning--in that case--a child of mixed-race.

R132 Not only did TCM air GWTW last month, but it was also added briefly to their OnDemand content for the first time ever after it aired. TCM usually keeps GWTW on extreme lock down, doling it out a time or two per year.

[quote]Bought her and her little wench, Prissy. John Wilkes was for almost giving them away

That should have been a clue for Gerald that he should have kept his $3000 instead of buying those two, although he would have wasted it on Confederate bonds anyway.

Everyone knows that Scarlett went into business with Belle, after they pursued their special friendship.

R124, that Haskell book is good.

Question: when Scarlett is on the 12 Oaks stairway with her friend and first sees Rhett, the friend whispers something scandalous about Rhett and some girl. Scarlett whispers back a question, to which the friend says, "No, but she was ruined all the same." What was the question?

She started drinking more and more during her marriage to Frank. I believe it's implied this damages her unborn daughter who is a bit simple.

Did anybody else think Will sounded sexy?

Oh, Miss Scarlett, I don't know nothing 'bout birthin' babies! I don't know how I could've told such a lie!

R137 She asked if the girl got pregnant/had a baby.

[quote]Scarlett whispers back a question, to which the friend says, "No, but she was ruined all the same." What was the question?

Q: Did she have a baby?

Remember she had her first hangover the morning after she made it back to Tara? She still rounded the troops and started organising the house/food supply. Gotta admire her.

Considering the context of 19th century morals, the question was more likely whether he kept her out after dark or kissed her.

The question was not whether he kissed her. The book makes it clear that Scarlett knows what's up and plainly asks if the girl in Cathleen's story had a baby.

Talking about the movie scene.

Well, given they based the movie on the book maybe we can say, hey, she asked the same damn question.

Frankly, my dear, I used a dental dam!

"Here's one quick reference I recall to inter-racial sex and sexual abuse of slaves. After the war, Scarlett is either visiting a neighbor or the neighbor, Grandma Fontaine, is at Tara for the funeral of Scarlett's father and she tells Scarlett a scandalous story. Someone tries to hush her and she remarks that it wouldn't be the first time someone had "a yellow baby", meaning--in that case--a child of mixed-race."

Actually, after Scarlett kills the Yankee she has a horse for transportation and is able to visit her neighbors. She visits the Fontaines and the Fontaine women (Sally, Young Miss and Old Miss, or Grandma Fontaine) tell her almost all their slaves ran off with the Yankees. Grandma Fontaine, a tough old bird indeed, tells her "Hah! They promised all the black wenches silk dresses and gold earbobs, that's what they did. And Cathleen Calvert said some of the troopers went off with the black fools behind them on their saddles. Well, all they'll get will be yellow babies and I can't say that Yankee blood will improve the stock." When Young Miss expresses shock Grandma says "Don't pull such a shocked face, Jane. We're all married, aren't we? And God knows we've seen mulatto babies before this."

Miss Pitty was always writing to Scarlett and Melanie imploring them to come live with her because "I'm afraid to live by myself!" Pitty had been sheltered her whole life and always needs someone to make decisions for her and protect her. Although Uncle Peter does that very well, he doesn't really "count" (and neither does the maid Cookie) because he's a slave. But that excuse, to keep people from "talking" was used in the marriage of Suellen and Will Benteen. He tells Scarlett Melanie and Ashley will soon be leaving and he couldn't stay on at Tara with just him and Suellen (again, slaves don't count) because "you know how folks talk), so they will have to marry. That's a major theme in GWTW; reputation is everything and nobody wants to be gossiped about.

I'm of two minds about whether Scarlett can get Rhett back. I read the book many times as a youth, and I always thought how tragic it was that she lost him just as she realized what he truly meant to her. And there were so many misunderstandings between them that, at the end of the book, Scarlett tries to explain, but it has no effect.

For example, when she was so ill after her miscarriage and Rhett was heartbroken that she never called for him and he had possibly killed her, she kept calling weakly, "Rhett... I want Rhett." But no one could hear her, and when they asked her what she said, she answered (or thought), "Never mind. He wouldn't come anyway." She and Rhett talk about it in the last scene and she explains it (as well as explaining that she now knows how silly she's been about Ashley for all those years), but all Rhett says is, "Then it seems we've been at cross-purposes, doesn't it?" He's utterly tired of her and her ways and wants to make a new, better life for himself. And he has very concrete vision of what that will be like. That's why I think it really is over.

On the other hand, regardless of what the experts say including the author, those characters live off the page in our imaginations, too. It's hard to imagine that once some time had passed and Scarlett was able to make amends (and vice-versa; he was also pretty cruel to her at times) they wouldn't find themselves rekindling their love affair. She is the classic irresistible force, after all.

If I could have a third hand, I'd say that Scarlett might give up after a while and find a fourth husband, a rich one who didn't care about divorce, to pamper her and let her have her way. But Rhett would always be the one who got away.

I read some of the "North and South" trilogy by John Jakes. He prides himself on his "historial accuracy" but his writing is mediocre, at best. The books are easy reads; reading them is like watching a soap opera. His characters are colorless and uninteresting, in contrast to the vividness of the characters in GWTW. There are a lot of lurid goings on, but on the whole I'd call his books very dull.

Unlike the characters in GWTW the characters in "North and South" don't give a damn about their reputations. Several of his women characters fuck with impunity without benefit of marriage. There's the eldest daughter of the respectable Southern Main family, Ashton (Her younger sister is Brett. Brett and Ashton. The names sound a tad familiar, don't they?). She could probably be classified as a nymphomaniac; she can't get enough of sex, both for power and pleasure, and she collects buttons from the flys of the trousers of her lovers as souvenirs. And if you're titillated by inter-racial sex there's plenty of it in the form of Virgilia, the rather unattractive daughter in the respectable Northern Hazard family. She's a rabid abolitionist, giving crazed speeches about "black breeding farms" and generally acting like a nutjob. Her zeal for abolishing slavery is fueled in no small part by her lust for black cock. She helps a slave escape and they become lovers and rut like crazy. Virgilia is one of the most repugnant characters in N&S; she classifies as one of the the "bad" characters and she is indeed very bad. In fact while working as a nurse she kills a young Southern soldier by allowing him to bleed to death and she tried to kill Orry Main by setting on mob on the visiting Southerner. But for some reason Jake redeems Virigilia (his'bad" characters usually come to a bad end) and she eventually meets a handsome, younger black man while caring for black waifs made homeless by the war. He inexplicably falls in love with the plain older woman and they marry and presumable live happily ever after. A happy ending for a murderer.

I think John Jakes is rather homophobic. One of his "bad" characters is an obese psychotic soldier who becomes a crazed murderer after the war. He's the product of incest; his father is his mother's father. He has "appetites"; he's sexually attracted to men (he has sex with women but is fixated on the handsome Charles Main). Jakes seems to be saying that mental illness goes hand in hand with homosexuality. And the character's name is, get this: Bent. Bent is one of the more offensive characters; I get the feeling John Jakes doesn't like homosexuals too much.

Yep, John Jakes is a Trumpkin

John Jake's Ukranian Jewish rewrite of the history of the United States.

What was his name before?

That is his real name. John William Jakes. His sometime pen name is Jay Scotland. Is this one of our anti-Semitic trolls?

"Cross purposes"

R150, I first saw the movie as a kid on one of those occasions when it had a theatrical revival and remember being struck by the term "cross purposes." I'd never heard that before and it seemed like a very "adult" usage. On those rare occasions that I hear it, GWTW always comes to mind.

Me, too, R155. It was the first time I'd seen the term used, and it stuck with me.

Ditto, R195 and 196.

Jakes is no MM.

Vigrilia was played by DL favourite and renowned thespian Kirstie Alley... here paired with Frank Burns II.

Kirstie is a THESPIAN?

If there had been no interracial sex, American blacks would look just like Africans.

I am almost 100% certain Scarlett and Rhett would have gotten back together, provided neither of them married someone else on the rebound. They had so much shared history together, not least of which the loss of a beloved child. Time would have softened Rhett's wounds.

Was uncle Peter porking aunt Pittypat?

The Civil War was the final chapter in the satanist Northern usury banking criminals' total conquest of the USA. They were angry that the South existed without the debt that had enslaved the North. So they murdered millions to change that. The stooge that they had installed in office in 1860, Lincoln, did not follow orders as directed so they took him out too.

I first read the novel during the summer after 8th grade. Even my idiot 8th grade self knew they were never getting back together. When it's done, it's DONE. Rhett said he would come back often enough to keep up basic appearances, there would be no divorce. He was going home to Charleston to reconcile with his family.

My favorite characters in the book were all the Tara neighbors. MM describes them briefly but vividly and the Casualty lists after Gettysburg were poignant. I would've liked to read more about their pre-war lives to contrast with the survivors post-war existence. The paragraph where Cathleen Calvert shows up one day at Tara to say "I came to tell you I am getting married and y'all are not invited" was devastating. She was the most popular girl in the County after Scarlett and now she looks like she's been dipping snuff.

When I saw the movie during one of the theatrical releases, I never thought Leslie Howard was too old. It was really hard to judge ages in an old film because of the hair and makeup and voice training. They all looked some undefinable "grown up" .

If Leslie Howard (whom I loved in Petrified Forest) was wrong for the part, what actor of that era should've been cast as Ashley Wilkes?

[quote] what actor of that era should've been cast as Ashley Wilkes?

A young, dapper, genteel and Southern-adjacent Vincent Price was in the running. I still think it's a tragedy he wasn't chosen.

Vincent had some serious BDF.

R66 Apparently that is where she got the notion that all the slaves were deliriously happy and loved their masters and were treated as part of the family. I will never forget that line in the book "the better class of them scorned freedom". The book was factual about the war itself and the conditions down south; but the story of slavery was turned into a fairy tale. No one in GWTW ever tried to run away, was beaten or whiipped and fawned and slobbered all over their kindly masters.

Pork referred the slaves who run away when the Yankees came to Tara (which actually means everybody except him, his wife and Mammy) as "trashy niggers"

"Outa my way, trash!"

(Mammy to trash)

Look. Mammy and Pork, and the other house slaves knew full well what awaited them just outside the back door. They knew their station in life as a slave was a hundred times better than what the field hands suffered. They played a role, and played it to perfection to maintain that house slave status. They were ass kissers. Brown nosers. As such, they'd do and say whatever they felt would ingratiate themselves in the minds of their slave masters ongoing. If that meant holding other "lesser" slaves in constant disdain, then so be it. Mammy, especially, knew that her position was unassailable. They were much the same as the "servants" "employed" by the British aristocracy a few hundred years ago. The cook looked down on the scullery maid. The parlor maid/under butler looked down on them. The personal maid/valet looked down on them all as a matter of course. And the butler and housekeeper looked own on them all. Perched high above them all was the nanny/governess. It was all the same shit.

r132, my bad. I have searched both online and on my tv for showings, for months, and couldn't find anything. I'm quite depressed that I missed it. It's my favorite movie.

I think Franchot Tone would have made a good Ashley.

Leslie Howard was said to be horse-hung and enjoyed one hot young stinkfish after another.

R171 Why don't you check your local library - go to it's website - I'll just betcha there's a DVD somewhere in your midst right now!

One of the misconceptions of GWTW was that it portrayed slaves as happy and contented and docile and completely happy being slaves. Actually it doesn't. Almost all of the slaves at Tara run off; only three stay, Mammy, Pork and Dilcey. That's true of the other plantations in the county; most of the slaves run off. SOME of the slaves in GWTW stay with their owners; I'm sure that was historically accurate.

R125, tennis lez Alice Marble said that Carole Lombard told her it was a dinky little thing.

R171, TCM will be showing it again on July 18th at 8pm ET.

R165, maybe VP, if Ashley were obssessed with Rhett.

R164, good point about the "grown up" quality of actors then.

I think Wally Beery might have done justice to the role of Ashley.

Something tells me that if Scarlett's dreams had come true and Ashley banged her she would be thinking "Is that all there is"?

Ashley Wilts?

Pork, Dilcey and Mammy were not real people; they were characters in a book. House slaves were not treated that way from reading the writings of freed slaves. Mitchell also implied that master/slave sex did not occur that often, which is hilarious in its inaccuracy. The book also has characters stating that blacks were black apes out of the jungle and how appalling it was that they would vote or want to vote after all their owners had done for them.

Randolph Scott would have made a nice Ashley. It also would have made for a more compelling picture as the audience themself would be torn as to which leading man was the better choice. I dont hate Howard but he is obviously phoning it in here; everyone else is in a movie and he's just passing time til he can go home.

Has everyone forgotten Prissy?

With GWTW, there's the question of how much the characters' comments are endorsed. So are those racist "ape" comments just reported, or are the speakers presented as sympathetic? I find that the text at the start of the film--"Knights and their fair ladies"--is problematic, but others say that it doesn't necessarily endorse that era.

What wind?

Just a song and dance girl at heart.....

R185, whoever thought up the curtain-rod bit should get the Nobel.

R183, a century ago, I heard Ms. McQueen speak at the Thalia in NYC, after a screening of her other epic Mildred Pierce. She said Ms. Crawford was nice.

Very sad how she died--a kerosene heater caught fire in her apartment, IIRC.

Franchot Tone hmmm, weak chin. Randolph Scott, wouldn't he have been blow off the stage by Leigh and deHavilland?

What about Paul Lukas? Melvyn Douglas?

^ I meant Paul Henreid

Douglas is in some of the screen tests, at least with Lana Turner. Much as I like him, too old and substantial.

Henreid, if Ashley had grown up in Austria.

"Pork, Dilcey and Mammy were not real people; they were characters in a book. House slaves were not treated that way from reading the writings of freed slaves. Mitchell also implied that master/slave sex did not occur that often, which is hilarious in its inaccuracy. The book also has characters stating that blacks were black apes out of the jungle and how appalling it was that they would vote or want to vote after all their owners had done for them."

Mammy, Pork and Dilcey were not meant to represent all house slaves in history. They were special cases, all of them. Not all house slaves were treated that way. But no doubt some of them were. And where did Mitchell imply that master/slave sex didn't occur that often? And yes, the book featured characters who thought black were inferior and not deserving of the vote, and that's because the book's characters were by and large white slave owning Southerners. What did you expect them to think?

GWTW is a work of FICTION. But a lot of dummies seem to think it's a historical textbook. It's not. It's a very readable book full of unforgettable characters. I have no idea why so many people think it's supposed to be a historical document that presents slavery in a favorable light. That's just ridiculous.

Scarlett and Rhett are major, but Scarlett and Melanie also anchor the book. A one-sided friendship, emotionally, where every time Scarlett does something for Melanie, internally she does it grudgingly, and because Ashley would want it. However, Scarlett had zero self-awareness, and I don't think understood how important it was to her to have Melanie's unconditional acceptance and support. By the time Melanie died, the only thing Scarlett wanted was for Melanie never to find out what Scarlett had felt for Ashley, and internally, she called Melanie "her rod and staff." The way I read it is Melanie could see the strength and courage in Scarlett that Scarlett didn't appreciate in herself, simply because it was the way Scarlett was made and she knew no other way to be. I also think Melanie understood that Scarlett had no self-awareness, and possibly was aware Scarlett was into Ashley, but had just that much faith in her husband and also understood Scarlett was deluded in her infatuation. That time Melanie stood up for Scarlett when she was disgraced after embracing Ashley in the barn, I think she knew Scarlett was "innocent" in that moment, but also not innocent in other moments, but had a bigger perspective.

I bet Scarlett could suck a ping pong ball through a garden hose, ergo, no explanation needed.

[quote]Very sad how she died--a kerosene heater caught fire in her apartment, IIRC.

It was a trailer.

R181 Actually, I have read many slave narratives over the years, I have a minor in Southern Studies, and if you really read a large enough sample of slave narratives, you will see that the reality is complicated. There were slaves that were treated quite well, slaves that were treated like shit, slaves that actually did feel love and affection for their owners, and slaves that felt that their owners were evil incarnate. Most of the ones, I have read that stayed with their former owners tended to be house slaves, like Pork, Mammy, etc... Most people forget why the Mammy figure became so beloved by the white South, it wasn't just because they wanted to believe that their were slaves that were actually happy being slaves, but nostalgia for their childhood. It was because for many of the upper class their "Mammy" was more of a mother to them than their own mother. The Southern Aristocracy patterned themselves on the British Upper Class, and therefore mother's gave birth and then turned the children over to mammies until they basically grew up. It is not surprising that a deep relationship would develop between a child and their caregiver, if they got injured or had a heartbreak it was their mammies that soothed them and showed them maternal love, not their mothers. Much like how Princess Grace's child recently discussed how much closer she was to her nanny than to her mother.

Or I to Carol Ann!

R195, isn't "The Mind of the South" considered a classic in that field?

R187 That would be Miss Bob Mackie!

I figured Paul Henreid could do a southern accent.

Southern Austria

Looking at r183's GIF it is plain that Scarlett's hand never touched Prissy's face.

(Did Bette's foot also never actually connect with Joan's body in tht famous scene?)

in that other famous scene

You just know Ashley would be crap in bed.

[quote]R150 If I could have a third hand, I'd say that Scarlett might give up after a while and find a fourth husband, a rich one who didn't care about divorce, to pamper her and let her have her way

But why WOULD she marry again (unless it were Rhett), as all three of her marriages were unhappy failures? Scarlett doesn’t have much “heart”. It’s not like she pines to curl up by the fire with someone for late night chats.

R158 Well my goodness! What prompted THAT???

[quote]R201 Looking at [R183]'s GIF it is plain that Scarlett's hand never touched Prissy's face

Butterface McQueen said she wouldn’t do the scene if she were really slapped.

Which was probably wise, as Evelyn Keyes said Leigh DIDN’T pull her punches, and her face was messed up for the whole day after THEIR slapping scene.

How were the estates settled? As I understand it, Charles and Melanie's parents were dead, and he had deep, deep pockets. Kennedy's store was thriving, along with the lumber business due to reconstruction - think of it being a 19th century Lowes. Rhett was wealthy, but Scarlet had her own, right?

In any case, Scarlett and Rhett weren't going to divorce, were they?

Movie slaps never connect, it's all done with sound effects.

(But sometimes the foot does connect - and hard - with a cunt's ribs!)

"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" - that line was a huge, huge deal back in 1939. It seems incomprehensible in contemporary times, but the utterance of the word "damn" in that movie was absolutely scandalous at the time. Movie goers couldn't believe their ears, and many returned again and again, sitting through the entire movie just to hear Clark Gable speak that line.

I remember my Grandma talking about how everyone went into the lobby during intermission talking about how impressive the burning of Atlanta was. She did not think they got back together. Rhett seemed to be a pretty weary 45 at the end of the book and seemed to be want to be free of drama. I suspect he might have permanently lost his spark when Bonnie died. A lot of couples have a hard time connecting after the loss of a child, and Rhett and Scarlet had issues on a good day.

Plus, while they were an interesting couple, they were pretty toxic to each other. Rhett might have understood her, but really he wanted the fantasy Scarlet who was the girl at the start of the war, he was not that much better dealing with the woman she became than Ashley. The "I don't give a damn line aside, he was pretty resigned, calm and unemotional when he and Scarlet had their long good bye scene. It was nothing done at the heat of the moment.

I watched the movie again for the first time in years (and I think the first time since I had read the book). What stood out for me as racist in the movie was how they portrayed any of the freed blacks who were not part of Scarlet's inner circle. I remember there were a few shots of some men after the war walking down the street looking like dandy's with dumb expressions on their faces as they were being manipulated by the evil Yankees.

R207, most of Charles's property ends up being lost for taxes, if I revall correctly, after the war, with Scarlett's Uncle Henry (who appears only in the book, not the film) paying the taxes on a warehouse-sized lot in Atlanta. Frank's store all went to her and the mills she bought were also hers so when she married Rhett, shes well off but not "rich" and always fearful what "little" she has will be taken from her. The magic of the book is the nightmares she suffers from are assumed by the reader to be telling her she may be poor again; not having a heart, it is a surprise to her--and the reader-- when she realizes the nightmares have been indicative of her longing for Rhett, not money. The book has some impressively drawn psychological bits like that; when people decry it, I have to wonder what they read.

Wasn't Henry Charles and Melanie's uncle?

You're right, R213. She calls him Uncle Henry, though, so that's why I referred to him as such.

I doubt anyone sat in that movie theatre for three hours just to hear one damn. To watch Clark Gable, sure. But if you go back pre-code, you can hear "damn" and even "virgin." I almost passed out when, in Animal Kingdom, Ann Harding says something to Leslie Howard like, "I'm a bohemian and a virgin ... well, the bohemian part, anyway."

In the movie GWTW the word "miscarriage" couldn't be uttered. Rhett says to Scarlett before she falls down the stairs "Cheer up, maybe you'll have a miscarriage" in the the movie he says "Cheer up, maybe you'll have an accident", which really doesn't make any sense. And Melanie simply collapses and dies without explanation; in the novel Rhett tells Scarlett "she had a miscarriage." Why was that word considered so unusable? It's so ridiculous that it was kept out of the movie.

In the book Scarlett wants to abort Bonnie and Rhett tells her he saw a girl die that way. I can't remember if that was hinted at in the movie.

GWTW was made nearly eighty years ago, R216, the term "miscarriage" would have too explicit for 1939 audiences (and film censors). References to pregnancy or birth were usually hinted at with euphemisms. Hell, for years, married couples couldn't be shown sharing a bed on film.

So far we have not really remarked on how much Vivien Leigh's performance anchors the film and gives it so much realism. I think she is astoundingly good.

That's a given.

Uncle Henry was Aunt Pittypat's brother. He was a lawyer and attended to her finances but had little to do with her because she was such a birdbrain. He's not a young man but he goes into the army because the South is so desperate for soldiers that it's recruiting old men and teenage boys under eighteen. He must have been a good soldier because he survives the war. Uncle Henry is a minor character in the novel, but he's as well drawn and real as any of the other characters in GWTW. Even the minor characters in the novel were vividly portrayed.

Bump kin

[quote]What stood out for me as racist in the movie was how they portrayed any of the freed blacks who were not part of Scarlet's inner circle. I remember there were a few shots of some men after the war walking down the street looking like dandy's with dumb expressions on their faces as they were being manipulated by the evil Yankees.

I haven't seen the movie in a very long time, and haven't read the book in even longer, but I remember there's a scene where Scarlet's new carpetbagger friends--who she's sucking up to because they're the only ones with money to buy her lumber--talk about trouble finding child care. Scarlett recommends that they find a former slave who "hasn't been ruined by the Freedman's Bureau." Mitchell also points out the carpetbaggers' hypocrisy, because this suggestion horrifies them.

I have to wonder why Rhett was hailed as such a hero for his blockade running by Atlanta society. He's very clear-eyed that the Confederacy is going to lose from jump, and is only doing it for the money.

One of the biggest sins that the sequel commits is Scarlett saying that Tara isn't her place anymore, it's Suellen's, which makes one wonder if Alexandra Ripley had even read GWTW.

R215 you are wrong. Selznick and Will Hays of Motion Picture Production Code aka the Hays code, battled extensively and on going for quite a while regarding that one word "damn"

It was nothing short of a miracle when Selznick finally got Hays to capitulate, allowing the inclusion of the word at the end of the film

It was a really, really big deal

I wanna know how did Dorothy keep Miss Gulch from taking Toto after she woke up?

R223 [quote] I remember there's a scene where Scarlet's new carpetbagger friends--who she's sucking up to because they're the only ones with money to buy her lumber--talk about trouble finding child care. Scarlett recommends that they find a former slave who "hasn't been ruined by the Freedman's Bureau." Mitchell also points out the carpetbaggers' hypocrisy, because this suggestion horrifies them

that's when the Maine woman searching for a babysitter refers to Uncle Peter as a nigger. And Scarlett replying he's one of the family. And the Maine women were perplexed: "Her family? You don't suppose she meant a relative? He's exceedingly black."

That led to a disagreement between Scarlett and Peter. Scarlett told him "yet they set you free" and he replied her something like no, I am not free, I still belong to Miss Pitty.....and when I will tell her that you let these Yankees insult me, she will get into a "state"

Scarlett fought back saying she defended him. And Peter complained that she does business with the Yankees..and that if she had not talked to them, they could have not insulted him!

That escaleted into Uncle Peter refusing to drive Scarlett around the town.

Selznic had to pay a big fine for including that "damn" in the finale.

What was scary about Cathleen Calvert's downfall is that she did nothing wrong. Things just didn't work out for her.

Miss Gulch was swept away by the tornado and was never seen or heard from again!

R219 You're right, Vivien Leigh's performance anchors the film.

The sad thing is the British film industry was incapable of making a film half as good as GWTW to showcase Leigh's talent (slim as it was).

I think Vivien Leigh was one of the greatest actresses of her generation. Sadly, she was always under Olivier's shadow. Olivier may have been a powerhouse on stage, but on film, Leigh far outshone him.

Is there anyone who thinks DeHavilland should have won the best supporting actress Oscar instead of McDaniel? Just curious. I've come to appreciate the depth of DeHavilland's performance over the years, although I think it's hard to say that one is better than the other. McDaniel certainly breaks my heart in the scene on the stairs when she has that devastating monologue about what Scarlett and Rhett have been going through since the death of Bonnie. And I think DeHavilland's death scene is one of the best ever committed to film.

I don't think there's a wrong answer to the question which of them should have won, but the historic nature of McDaniel's win gives her the edge to me.

People didn't know Rhett was blockading only for mercenary reasons. They appreciated his efforts because it helped the Cause, but he kept his real reasons for blockading a secret except to Scarlett. He honestly tells her that he only does it to make money and when it gets too dangerous or nonprofitable he'll stop doing it. Rhett is eventually very disliked because he is not in the army, despite being perfectly fit to serve. Later in the novel he does join the army out of a strange loyalty to the South and serves for eight months. He leaves Scarlett on her own after they flee Atlanta with only a rickety wagon and a half dead horse to get her, the useless Prissy, her terrified son Wade, the incapacitated from a difficult childbirth Melanie and Melanie's newborn baby back to Tara. But he has faith in Scarlett's resilience and knows she can get through on her own. And she amazingly does.

[quote]R225 I wanna know how did Dorothy keep Miss Gulch from taking Toto after she woke up?

She spread her legs for the spinsterish old harpie.

Later they moved in together, and opened a B&B.

R230 I'm sorry I cannot agree. Vivien was carefully coached by George Cukor for GWTW.

All her roles in her English films (Cleopatra, Karenina, Hester Collyer) expose poor Vivien as pretty but weak, passive with a tiny voice.

She gives a marvelous performance in Anna Karenina. And she's quite breathtaking in That Hamilton Woman. And then there's A Streetcar Named Desire, a performance that, like Scarlett, assures her place among the greatest living actresses of her generation.

R235 Streetcar, Roman Spring and Ship of Fools all rely on the momentum created by Scarlet O'Hara and Cukor's coaching.

She is as ornamental as a Meissen figurine in most of her English roles— and as lifeless.

She looks fabulous in Cecil Beaton's gowns in Karenina but her tiny voice is more Roedean School than Russia

Vivien Leigh was driven and disturbed. The roles of Scarlett and Blanche came along at perfect times in her life, when they mirrored her own circumstances. They are also exceptional roles that allowed for range.

She was technically fine in other films (I've never seen her Cleopatra) and her beauty always added an extra layer...but those above two roles, and her understanding of the characters, really unleashed more fire.

r236, please. Your vilification of her acting ability is tiresome. She won two Oscars for two of the greatest performances in screen history. No matter how much you want to be right, you aren't.

Streetcar came twelve years after GWTW, Roman Spring came twenty two years after GWTW; Ship of Fools came 26 years after GWTW.

Some momentum.

Leigh turned down tons of roles...she was obsessed with Laurence Olivier and wanted to do stage work with him. And he was making plenty of money. They weren't hurting.

It's not like Hollywood and audiences weren't interested in her for parts.

Damn, I loved Leigh's performance in "Waterloo Bridge". And that opening shot of Robert Taylor standing on Waterloo Bridge took my breath away; he was SO Handsome.

"Rhett Butler's People" has them get back together. Ashley marries Rhett's sister!

R239 The same momentum that carried her poor Vivien's performances in those films 26 years after GWTW is the same momentum which is keeping us queens discussing her in GWTW almost 80 years after it premiered

I forgot that what I really like her in is WATERLOO BRIDGE. It's so romantic, and she's utterly perfect in it.

Did they ever sell this as a print? I REALLY WANT ONE!!

She plays her Cleopatra a lot like pre-war Scarlett.

[quote]"Rhett Butler's People" has them get back together. Ashley marries Rhett's sister!

I see they basically ignored the events of Scarlett in that one. Probably wise.

R245 The Cleopatra film had good production values but Bernard Shaw's ancient jokes killed any entertainment value.

R243 That's a lovely 2 minute video marriage of Saint-Saens' music and the images from MGM's movie and it avoids the dirtiness in the film's plot and Vivien's thin voice.

R240 You say that Leigh turned down tons of roles. But that was because Selznick used his contract players as commodities and refused to loan her out.

He used his other stars as commodities, Bergman Hitchcock, Welles, Jones, Joseph Cotten.

He got more cash loaning them out instead of making his own films with them.

[quote]R248 But that was because Selznick used his contract players as commodities and refused to loan her out.

No, she wouldn't even work for him. She went back to England and he brought a lawsuit against her when she did THE SKIN OF OUR TEETH on stage there. She counter argued that if she didn't work, she'd be put to work in a munitions factory.

I don't know if the Selznick contract was even tually broken, or it just ran out.

^ The Skin of Our Teeth was the perfect role for Vivien.

It was almost like a cabaret performance. It showed off her vivacity and her prettiness. It required no profundity.

Is R239 being funny? S/he lists 4 stunning performances. Was VL supposed to churn one out every year? Fuck that.

I'm sorry she turned down MY COUSIN RACHAEL. That could have been very interesting.

I wrote 239... my point was her critic claimed Vivien Leigh's talent was actually only just momentum from George Cukor and her performance in Gone with the Wind. I was trying to point out momentum of 26 years might be the result of more than a one of with a poof coach a quarter of century earlier. Sorry if it was too subtle. I try not to use cunt in every sentence when addressing those with whom I disagree.

I'm sorry she didn't play the French queen opposite the beautiful Larry in 'Henry V'.

I'm sorry she couldn't finish 'Elephant Walk'; I wanted to see what she saw in that gangly young Peter Finch.

Well R253, I'm glad that you are R239 instead of R237.

R237 seems to be one of those delicate flowers who revere Vivien as role model for homosexuals because she became rather mentally-unbalanced in her latter years.

Thank you for explaining, R253

[bold]#TeamViv

R249 The outfit she wore for 'The Skin of Our Teeth' was similar to this—

It is unfortunate she died at age 53. (?) That once sounded old to me, but now I see it's shockingly young.

Tuberculosis; that's curable now, isn't it?

Well, she had to have wrecked her body with all the smoking and manic late nights, too, wouldn't one think?

I think more than that R260 were the electroshock treatments. They aged her terribly and did who knows what else to her physically.

Such a shame we didn't have better treatments for all of that back then.

I believe electroshock therapy is actually a very effective treatment for some. They do it at different voltages now, though.

^ Yes, that would have contributed.

But frankly, Vivien, I don't know how you could have spurned the rock-like Larry for weedy little Peter?

Peter Finch is much, much sexier than Laurence Olivier.

R260, Wasn't TB officially the cause? I still don't understand how someone--certainly a celebrity--could die of that in 1967. There were treatments by then.

She probably caught it from a cab driver or a milkman she picked up.

Re: Larry vs Peter: I don't think Viv had a lot of choice in the matter. Her bipolar (of course they didn't call it that back then) was very difficult to live with and it wore Larry out. It would wear anyone out. He decided to move on but they remained the loves of each others lives.

R264 Finch had an earnest dorkiness which improved with age.

Larry was Promethean.

Larry was a god married to his muse, Shakespeare, English Culture, and therefore incomprehensible to the ornamentally-thin capricious, cabaret-artiste Vivien

Well....that homewrecker Danny Kaye probably didn't help matters.

R269 Fool!

That stupid American muck-raking gossip has been completely debunked!

Kenneth Tynan had such a fan girl crush on Olivier, as well, I wonder if they had a thing, too...

So may of those English guys have those schoolboy marriages early on at Harrow etc., it's second nature to them.

Those who enjoyed reading “GWTW” might get a kick out of the black-POV parody, “The Wind Done Gone.” There’s a character who is the half-sister to the O’Hara girls, Mammy’s daughter by Gerald O’Hara. She ends up in Belle’s (a lesbian in this version) brothel where she meets Rhett and becomes his mistress. Ashley has a scandalous affair with Prissy’s brother. It is revealed that the reason the Robillard family did not want cousins Ellen and Philippe to marry is that they had a mutual black ancestor and the family feared that if the two cousins had children together, the children might be perceptibly part black and thus reveal the family secret.

Sorry R273....that;s interesting, but we're discussing how Olivier and Tynan had an OBVIOUS AFFAIR.

Why did Danny Kaye stand for it???

"Rhett Butler's People" has them get back together. Ashley marries Rhett's sister!"

Oh, my God. Don't Scarlett and Belle Watling become pals in that? What garbage. I'm surprised they didn't have Ashley marrying Prissy. That would have made as much sense as him marrying Rhett's sister.

Did anyone read "Scarlett" the execrable sequel to GWTW? Written by a hack historical writer named Alexandra Ripley it is beyond dreadful. I attempted to read it our of curiosity but could not manage more than a few paragraphs. Ripley has absolutely NO understanding or conception of any of the characters in GWTW. They have names like "Scarlett" and "Rhett" but their speech and behavior bears no resemblance to the unforgettable personalities in GWTW. Here are a few highlights. The dignified, stiff upper lipped Ashley tries to jump into Melanie's grave, wailing "Mellleeee!" He NEVER called her "Melly." He always called her Melanie. Rhett and Scarlett go sailing (?) and a storm suddenly arises and the boat capsizes and Scarlett almost drowns. Rhett drags her to shore and wails "My darling, my darling! I thought I'd lost you!" and then proceed to make passionate love to her. She gets pregnant; she goes to Ireland and gives birth to their daughter "Cat" during a stormy night. Although Scarlett had never had any problems with childbirth whatsoever she now needs an emergency cesarean. And SURPRISE! Rhett and Scarlett get back together again, with another spoiled little girl to replace their lost Bonnie Blue. The book was a big hit, which goes to show that GWTW is so popular that droves of people will buy anything associated with it, no matter how atrociously shitty it is.

Anyone remember the TV movie about the casting of Scarlett O'Hara?

Wasn't Mr. Streisand Gable?

R272 You may have assumed that Kenneth Tynan had "a fan girl crush on Olivier" but I wish you would quote the words that led to that silly assumption.

British people— especially a bitchy, waspish wordsmith like Tynan— know how to use irony.

Tynan was a theatre critic who'd be catty to show off his clever cattiness. And he was extremely rude about poor Vivien's feeble performances on stage in the late 1950s.

So Olivier realised the only way to silence Tynan the cat was to hire him.

James Brolin-Streisand played Gable in Gable & Lombard, a very bland theatrical movie that has all the production qualities of one made for tv.

r275, I gave "Scarlett" about as much of a chance as you did. It truly was awful.

I'll give "Rhett Butler's People" a smidgen of credit for inventive back-stories on a few minor characters from "GWTW.

SPOILER ALERT on plot points of "Rhett Butler's People"! (I feel so silly doing that, but just in case) -

Belle Watlings's son, whom Mitchell, in "GWTW" strongly hints is Rhett's, is, instead, the son of a ne'er -do- well who grew up with Rhett. Rhett and her son are estranged, despite Rhett supporting him since childhood, but by the end of the book, of course, they're reconciled.

In "GWTW", the slave that Rhett kills and is the reason why the Yankees are holding Rhett, wasn't "uppity to a white women".

He was Rhett's best friend and a free black man who had been Rhett's navigator during their blockading days. A white woman had set him up. A lynch mob was forming to torture and hang him. Rhett, who was cornered with him, at his friend's begging request, shoots him to death.

Further to R195's point about many Southerners genuinely loving their Mammy because she gave them more love than their mothers, you see exactly that in The Help. Those women may be paid (a pittance), but they are in exactly the same relationship otherwise.

R278 isn't exactly right about Olivier and Tynan. Tynan did adore Olivier, at least as an actor, and wrote some very hurtful reviews where he compared Olivier's talent to Leigh's, and in particular stressed the inadequacy her voice, which was all right for film but terrible for theatre (and that's a fact - ref. Nicole Kidman). In his defence, he was being a good critic. It was Olivier casting Vivien to play opposite him in Shakespeare, which she didn't have the vocal equipment for, that was the real cruelty. But of course Olivier, being a narcissist, chose to blame Tynan. But by 1963, when Olivier hired him as dramaturg at the National (after Tynan actively sought the job), Olivier was married to Joan Plowright and had no need (or probably, wish) to silence Tynan's criticisms of Leigh.

Regarding Leigh's voice, it's interesting that her two greatest performances had Southern accents. Whether via Cukor or in some other way, she really learned to play the music of the Southern accent to get more range than she did with her own, which was that clipped, uptight posh accent of the early 20th century British. The Queen used to have it, and had training to broaden it over the years.

Vivien Leigh's bipolar nature became pronounced around the mid 1940s, which explains why she didn't do more parts. It got worse with time until she was finally unemployable, much like Judy Garland. Still, there were times, also like Garland, that even in the midst of her illness she managed to be charming, sweet, and funny. Noel Coward documents it all in his memoirs.

Leigh's voice deepened a great deal. In Ship of Fools she's almost a baritone. An early film is "St. Martin's Lane," with Laughton. She's a real sprite in that.

I love that film because we get to see her dance.

R284 - Did you forget her dancing the "Virginny Reel" with Rhett Butler when she scandalized the crowd by dancing when she was a widow??

R195 Be that as it may, the reality is they were owned, bought and sold like cattle. Mothers and children could be separated on the whim of an owner. They were put on display at slave auctions. The disgrace is that there was no plan in place for them when they were freed. Most of them could not read or write. I have always believed that Lincoln was intelligent enough to realize that chaos would ensue with sudden freedom and would have done something about their education. Maybe not; we will never know.

R285, her dancing in the earlier film is very different. She portrays a dancer, so we see her do these solo Isadora-type lyrical dances and she almost seems possessed.

Yes. I actually like that film a lot. She is superb and so is Laughton, of course.

R288 I don't know about that.

She looks like a mosquito wearing striped culottes and Laughton looks like that elephant 'to the north of Khatmandu'.

Leigh was an extraordinarily talented actress, IMO. With her portrayals of Scarlet O'Hara and Blanche DuBois firmly entrenched in our minds, it is interesting to see some of her later work. Check out his scene from "Ship of Fools" and the one I'll post below the first. I particularly like the way she goes into the dance jive at the 01:30 mark - she just GOES for it completely out of nowhere.

Here's the second clip. Touchingly poignant. Her face looks pretty damn good at age 52.

r291, that almost made me cry.

Leigh's performance there made me suddenly realize that I was mistaken about why I can't watch "Streetcar" no more than every 10 years or so because it leaves me so mentally and emotionally exhausted.

I thought it was Brando who wore me out. I realize now, it was Leigh's Blanche that creates that reaction in me.