As First Dates proved this week, it's hard to be a feminine gay man in the dating world

This obsession with white masculinity has dominated gay representation in recent film. The critically lauded Call Me By Your Name, though a ravishing piece of filmmaking, links gay male sexuality to the ideal male forms of classical antiquity. The men in the film have an all-boys academic club, where sculptures of Greek gods serve as a clunky projection for their homoerotic desires, as if the perfection of male musculature in antiquity comes hand in hand with what it means to be gay.

The British breakout feature, God’s Own Country, although an accomplished and rare depiction of rural England, has two straight actors portraying gay men who would no doubt satisfy those seeking a “straight-acting” Prince Charming. And the currently acclaimed gay-male play at The Young Vic, The Inheritance, is unashamed in its presentation of exclusively cisgender gay men with huge economic and cultural capital.

I have rarely seen femme gay men portrayed as sexually empowered subjects – when we see them in the media, they are often eunuchs, or serve as comic relief. Now I’m not saying that desiring a man who is masculine or who enjoys football is a problem. The issue at hand is the way representation has presented these “straight-acting” men as the zenith of success, which has resulted in internalised homophobia and damaging hierarchies within gay spaces. All forms of culture have an urgent responsibility to represent gay people in their spectrum of identities, so that white masculinity isn’t the ultimate goal.

When it is, it leads white cisgender gay men to enact homophobic patterns on their sisters and brothers. We cannot allow desire to become politicised to the point that those who do not conform become undesirable.

Cissy that walk

R1 - I think you are ignoring successful movies and TV shows which portray lemme gay men as sexually powered subjects. For example Torch Song Trilogy and The Birdcage. On TV there is Will and Grace; and Ugly Betty.

These are popular and successful movies and TV shows which have strong characters who can't be described as straight acting .

Weekend. Film. Real men, real situations, life as it is or might be for you, one day.

“I want [the men I date] to be straight-acting.” This is a direct quote from a gay man in a recently aired episode of Channel 4’s First Dates. And it’s not an uncommon phrase among gay men. After I watched the date in question, I felt upset, frustrated, but also unsurprised. As a genderqueer gay person on a journey to find love myself, I’ve been insulted on dating apps for being “too femme”, “a mincer” and, in one mathematical impossibility, “not 1,000 per cent straight-acting”.

On the First Dates episode, both men are white, cisgender and masculine presenting. They clink their beer jugs and bond over football, which leads one of them to rejoice that, “finding a gay who likes football is like finding the perfect Kit Kat”.

White cisgender masculinity is celebrated as the ultimate triumph in many gay spaces, coming with it a rejection of non-conformism in our communities. It’s telling that possibly the most celebrated gay male couple mass-culturally is Tom Daley and Dustin Lance, a fairytale picture of gay men who have won by the sign posts of heteronormative idealism– one is an Olympian, the other a Hollywood veteran, both are white, cisgender, masculine, wealthy, they’re married and expecting children. Their conformism makes them palatable to the tastes of the masses.

This deification of white masculinity populates gay spaces on the ground too. For instance, WE Party is a club night for gay male jock types, the promotion imagery of which is almost exclusively white muscular men who are dressed as Greek gods (they recently had an “Olympic Games”-themed party).

There are a dozen or so guys who regularly show up nearby on Grindr whose profiles say "No whites." At least half of them have messaged me looking for a hook up.

Virtually none of the black men list their ethnicity as black, rather they put "mixed."

Even with those whose outward expression is anti-white-cisgender male betray their stated desires. And black men try to obfuscate by listing themselves as mixed. Who's kidding whom? Gay men in this country overwhelmingly idolize that standard. Is it right? Wrong? I don't believe there is an answer that will adequately satisfy anybody who asks.

[quote] WE Party is a club night for gay male jock types, the promotion imagery of which is almost exclusively white muscular men who are dressed as Greek gods

Where is this club, please?

I've always been a masculine guy who only wants other masculine men.

Will and Grace and the Birdcage are comedies.

What are some serious dramas that portray sexualized feminine gays in leading roles? The only one that comes to mind is Emmett in Queer as Folk, but even then he mostly served as comedic relief in many of his scenes. The one serious dramatic storyline he was in was his relationship with Teddy whilst Teddy was an addict on meth.

Truly femme gays are definitely lacking in serious leading dramatic roles, as compared to the usual masculine white gay characters.

Someone upthread called Dustin Lance Black masculine!

The author of the above article (who thinks that Dustin and Tom are "masculine"). Exactly what I expected.

[quote]The author of the above article (who thinks that Dustin and Tom are "masculine").

If THAT's the bar he's setting, no wonder he's complaining.

Since the dawn of time, there have ALWAYS been more and less desirable partners for mating. Whining about not being a top tier sexual partner is both hilarious and ineffably sad.

This is the butch powertop that wrote the article.

Straight guys and dom tops often find nelly bottoms irresistible. They love the femininity. I'm a gay man who loves masculinity and seeks it out.

Feminine gays/Queens are effing annoying. I don't care to be around them in person nor watch them on tv. same for really really butch obese unattractive lesbians.

Uh okay

R1 I'd say it's the other way around. CMBYN came up and people said, finally some gay men who aren't queens, and oops they are bisexual not gay. Where are the gay men in popular media who are just regular dudes, not stereotypes of flaming gayness? Regular dude =/= masculine. James Bond = masculine.

I do think the gay culture is an artificial construct meant to create unity. So many times you see a man coming out, start being active in the community, cruising a lot, just hanging out with others a lot, and then even his voice changes.

R10 Angels in America.

R15 Straight guys?

^ Straight guys who actively seek out trans/lady boys rather than females, R15. I think that they like the idea that a trans "girl" understands their needs better than their GFs, and without the games. Because a shemale is still a man who thinks like they do and is happy to take part in the male/female fantasy.

Such bullshit, r7. Most black men on Grindr do not say they are mixed.

ahh, yes. the eternal fight between femme/masc. Never mind that most ppl are dont fit in any of those stereotypes .

Why is it that most femme guys always look for masc guys??

Some losers just hold on to an ideal they've been raised with. Like girls who grew up to worship the Mattel Barbie doll ideal and feel inadequate for some reason.

All these masc worshippers want to be someone else's bitch (because that's what gays are in their eyes: Girly boys who need a superior male to tell them who's boss), but (because of that severe self loathing) they look only for guys who can only give them hearbreak, pain and humiliation. Like gay4pay. Because only a straight, masculine guy is superior. Any masculine gay guy is just weak in comparison. Sure, they settle for a masculine gay but when a straight, maculine guy comes along they dump the masculine gay guy in a heartbeat, because they are still stuck with that belief (from their childhood and teen years) that being gay is bad and all gays can hope for is misery and an AIDS related death.

Not really dude

R10 - are you just dismissing comedies in general as having no significance? It seems to me both Will and Grace; and The Birdcage were important culturally. Certainly both played significant roles in Queer History.

I think you're attempting to "poke the bear" but failing.

You use the word “queer,” r26. You’re discounted

I'd date an effeminate man at the drop of a hat. As long as he is not a drag queen.

All gay men are fem to some degree anyway.

Masc dudebros are the best. Dudes being dudes and doing dude stuff like sucking cock and riding dick. Nice brah!

Some femmes make good bottoms, and many are easy lays. No desire to date or have a relationship with them, though, just wouldn't do it for me. That doesn't mean I am actively mean to them otherwise!

Is sat at the table next to DLB and an older Af-Am guy at Hugo's WeHo. He's not super nelly, but he's not masculine, either.

You can tell masculinity by words and phrases men use.

It’s not gonna change

[quote] All gay men are fem to some degree anyway.

Speak for yourself, you Twat.

I watch the show, they regular have gay dates feature in the program and almost all those guys are what you'd describe as stereotypical gay The vast majority of gay me depicted in the media fits neatly into the stereotypical idea.

I remember this gay date, the guy on the left was really cute and handsome.

R35 Bear in mind that the gay men who are queing up to be on TV tend to be the more "out there" variety.

Wasn't this the show where the gay rugby league player, Keegan Hirst, went on that painfully awkward date with some Instahoe (whose name I don't care to look up)?

I recall a "spooning leads to forking" joke by the Hoe that went over like a fart in church.

[quote]White cisgender masculinity

What? Based on the multiple posts bearing variations of this phrase I have to believe this is one poster. 'White masculinity'? What does that even mean? And we at DL reject having this 'cisgender' label being forced upon us, thank you very much.

r37, lol, yeah, that's this show.

The ONLY place there is hand wringing about "masc" gays or "femme" gays is the Internet and other media. It all falls into place and everyone gets who they want in real life.

It seems a lot of non-masc guys like to ridicule and denounce the masc4masc culture. Why even focus on guys who don’t want them? Just focus on guys that are not masc4masc.

I'm a lesbian and I find all gay men to be effeminate. An inordinate amount seems to be closeted as well. I guess they have more to lose.

R41 ALL? shut the hell up dyke. Stop this cisgender shit NOW. there is a man and there is a woman. Stop being retarded.

[quote]I'm a lesbian and I find all gay men to be effeminate

Only when standing next to you, R41.

I used to assume I was someone who is only attracted to “more masculine” males - whatever that means - until they’d open their mouths and reveal themselves to be lunkheads or petty or bullies, then, nope - no matter how deep their voice is or how built or how alpha they present themselves to be - no semblance of attractiveness can be can resurrected.

What used to surprise me is when I would be drawn to an “effeminate” guy - and it has happened - bigly. It fascinated me. Each time we interacted, I searched for why the hell this person was not repelling me and I finally figured it out.

What had me attracted to certain feminine guys was not their lack of girliness, but their lack of certain negative female qualities like vocal fry or bitchiness or - the stunner - that tactic of many females (and apparently gay males) to adopt that disapproving mother bullshit that triggers some engrained need for approval. The little lost lamb, “I’m just a widdle spoon” crap also has me searching for the nearest exit.

I had been conflating femininity with blatant manipulation.

More often than not, for better or worse, “effeminate” guys tend to indulge in either that vapid, vocal fry, shallow, cunty bitch thing, or that haughty, disapproving, “is that what you’re wearing”, “careful, or you might disappoint me” mother thing. So, I’d mistakenly assume all “girly” guys were cunts.

I’m happy to say that when I encounter a guy who stands or walks or speaks or dresses a bit “girly” (small-minded to put it that way, but it has been instilled in me that males act “one way” and females, another) I don’t automatically assume we’re incompatible.

I don't mind 'fem' gestures like talking fast or with hands, quick eye movements, natural gayvoice, etc. But I loathe the theatricality and bitchiness of some girly bois who want to be loud and get attention and be FABULOUS. That leaves me cold.

R44 I've had that happen too although i only want macho men. I think, for me, it's because the effeminate qualities they have make them very sweet and tender to me. Not the bitchy ones of course.

Okay