CIA Operative Says: TED KENNEDY DIDN'T KNOW MARY JO KOPECHNE WAS IN THE CAR

TMZ with a positive story about a democrat? The pigs are flying.

That’s because he was drunk and thought that he ran her over.

So when the car starts up and drives away she would not wake up?

Muriel Humphrey? Pat Nixon?

If you are really drunk or a deep sleeper R3. I was a deep sleeper when I was younger. The paramedics came to my house because someone was having an asthma attack. Never knew they were there till the morning.

Is this coming out now because all the parties involved - including the powerful politician's wife - are now deceased?

Plausible story, but kind of out there. Who is the famous politician's wife?

If this were true, it would have come out long ago.

Bullshit. How do you not see a grown woman on the backseat? Sounds like this CIA stooge (he doesn't provide a name so may not be CIA at all but rather a Kennedy stooge attempting PR damage control) trying to put a hit on the upcoming movie about the incident. The same movie that almost didn't get made and has barely gotten any publicity outside of Fox News because of powerful forces. The Kennedys were and are scum. Says a lot about the people in Ted's state that he got re-elected after that.

Would it have been possible to keep this info from leaking to Mary Jo's family? How is it that no one ever whispered this tale to them since Mary Jo was kind of an insider in that circle?

Not necessarily R8. Look how long it took for deep throat to be exposed.

I am a light sleeper so I know that most people can sleep through all hell breaking loose...must be nice.

Well, why didn't he say that then? "I'm so sorry, I had a little bit too much to drink and ran off the bridge with no guardrails. I didn't realise anyone else was in the car, it was dark."

No, his story was that he dived down to see if he could get her out and he couldn't. Plus he was drunk and disoriented.

It's in the news now because there's a movie out/coming out that tells the story.

Why are they doing this movie? Just to insult the Kennedy's? I think less of Kate Mara because of it.

And why wouldn't he have said he didn't know she was in the car at the time? Don't see how the presence of the famous wife makes any difference here.

Yeah, Ted and the rest of the Kennedys wouldn't have hesitated to name the politician's wife if this were the case -- he would have been much better off being branded a cheater than a murderer.

Was Ted also a tinymeat like Truman Capote said about his brothers?

I agree with R13. He could have said that and still left the politician's wife out of the story. This sounds like they are trying to plant the seeds for this story to be viewed differently decades from now.

I thought I'd just sneak into the backseat and pop up surprise Ted and Muriel Humphrey with a giant "BOO!" on the Chappaquiddick bridge!

Turns out that was not such a great idea given what a nervous driver Ted was.

Since they were both at a party before they left, I find this story hard to believe.

Gossip was that while he was MIA after the crash that night, they tried to get his cousin Joe Gargan to take the blame.

Not only did he dive down to try and save her, didn’t he and his cousin return to try and save her a second time?

Who dives not once but twice to save a person they DIDN’T know was in the car in the first place?

Could he have been diving down to save the woman he was having the affair with? Once he knew Mary Jo had been in the vehicle kept the story, but changed who he was trying to save.

Trump paid Stormy $130 thousand dollars for nothing...or so he says.

I don’t know why people think this makes Kennedy look better. This was a pretty massive cover up that makes everyone involved look terrible, especially him. I have no trouble believing it btw. The CIA knows how to keep secrets sometimes. And didn’t Joe Gargan pass away recently?

The plausible alternative theory I heard was that a cop drove by while he and Mary Jo were parked and even though the cop didn't see anything they got spooked, and they split up. Mary Jo took the car to drive off, while Ted would follow behind her on foot. Mary Jo either had bad vision, or it was bad road conditions, etc. and drove off the bridge by accident. By the time Ted crossed the bridge on foot, the car had sunk and there was nothing to see. He went to bed and didn't figure out what happened until the next morning. Weren't his clothes completely dry? This would explain that. The obvious counterpoint is "Why would they lie about something like this, which actually makes him look better, albeit stupid?" The answer is: People will do anything to avoid being thought of as stupid.

Just to be clear, this theory was just speculation the person was making based on the facts of the case. Wasn't based on any inside information, but the person seemed to know what they were talking about, so eh, makes sense to me.

Ted was surprised at what a strong swimmer I was, but I didn't grow up in the Land of 10,000 Lakes for nothing!

As for cheating on my husband... well, a woman has needs even Hubert couldn't satisfy.

Years ago I saw a documentary on this series of events.

There was a house quite close to the bridge and the night of the incident the occupants were home and the lights were on.

So, anyone seeking help had a place to go that was very close.

There was a book decades ago that the Kennedy's tried to keep unpublushed. Teddy had numerous chances to get her help like R27 noted. Instead he called the Kennedy machine first. They are pushing an alternative because a new generation of Kennedy's are running for office.

Nothing but bs PR hype aimed at the simple minded sap who just might say "Hmmm, maybe he DIDN'T know" I'll have to see the movie to find out.

This is the type of thing that would have worked much better pre-Internet. In a generation or two, they would have everyone believing it with help from allies in the media.

This is bullshit. I remember reading up on this quite a bit a couple of years ago and both Ted Kennedy and Kopechne were having a liaison that night. Kopechne was a very sheltered and naive idealist, who’d been badly affected by the death of Bobby Kennedy. She was by all accounts very plain, and had become kind of obsessed with the Kennedys.

Kopechne was also seen by witnesses leaving the party with Kennedy; she apparently didn’t know Teddy that well, however they were both described as drinking heavily before they left in his car together. It’s obviously that he picked her up, and when the car crashed into water it was all about saving his own ass.

The famous politicians wife was his sister-in-law. Negligent homicide is preferable to that kind of info leaking.

Joe Kennedy is dead. So whose pulling the strings in the kennedy family these days? Is it Caroline, Ethel and Bobbys kids. Who would have that type of power to try and stop this film from being released? And who are their powerful friends? I'm always curious about these things.

R32 are you saying Ethel? Hmmm.... I don't see it, but maybe.

What are you saying r32, that it was Ethel Kennedy. I find that hard to believe.

R33, I believe it's Chris Kennedy who runs the family business out of Chicago. He ran in the primary for governor as a Democrat losing badly.

At the time, it was rumored she was pregnant by Teddy. Leaving her in the car eliminated two problems.

What R21 said - the tale of valiant Ted and his friend repeatedly jumping in to save Maryjo until they gave up because they were too exhausted.

Muriel Humphrey was born in 1912 - she was 20 years older. Look at photos of Muriel and Maryjo, and tell me who Ted was going to drive away with that night ....

Was Teddy diddling his sister-in-law, Jacqueline?

People claim to forget their children in the car and leave them to die in the sweltering heat of a locked vehicle. If you can believe that, I don’t see why you can’t believe this.

If Ted were a Republican, he would have gotten away with it and people would have mentioned the "unfortunate accident" in hushed tones.

We will never see a movie made about the night Laura Bush ran over her boyfriend, or "The Many Wives of Newt Gingrich" or how Nelson Rockefeller died under a hooker's body.

Oh please R42 - yes, the Kennedys are soooo abused by the press and the courts. Molesting babysitters, raping girls on the lawn in Palm Beach, rolling a Jeep while drunk and ooops some girl dies under it, or driving your car off a narrow bridge and oops a girl dies inside, or creeping on the neighborgirl next door until you just have to kill her. Why won't they leave the Kennedys alone ?

I don’t know about that, r21. She was supposed to have barely known him, however who knows if that’s really true. I think he picked her up that night and after the accident, he abandoned her to save his career. He was extremely drunk and there also might have been drugs involved. When the police finally got to interview him he’d managed to sober up enough that they couldn’t prove he was inebriated while driving the car.

I don’t even think he tried to dive down and save her; he was supposed to have headed straight for his hotel room to get changed. He then made a big scene at the check in desk over the noise some other guests were making. The theory is he wanted to make it seem like he’d been in his hotel room the entire time the crash happened. That’s why he wanted to be seen at the front desk at that particular time. He only admitted responsibility when he realised he couldn’t deny it any longer.

Caroline has become very influential in protecting the Kennedy name, as Jackie was. Jackie wanted Jr. to run for president, now Caroline wants to set the stage for her son. The other Kennedy is Robert Jr who wants to pave the way for the rest of the cousins. However he is such a slime ball that it is probably Caroline that gets the most deference from the press and publishers. And they do still get deference.

That Kennedy at r36 is the homeliest male Kennedy I have ever seen. He got the worst of Ethel and the worst of Bobby, and could probably eat an entire apple through a picket fence with those massively long teeth.

[quote] Jackie wanted Jr. to run for president, now Caroline wants to set the stage for her son.

Boy has that ship already sailed.

Right wingers insist that Ted killed Mary Jo...nothing new and as ridiculous and mean spirited as everything else they preach.

I think it is possible to be so drunk that you wouldn't notice her in the back seat. However, until they name the other woman, I am skeptical of this.

Byron Allen said it was time for the true story to be told. And for maryjo to finally get justice. He also said a lot of very powerful people tried to get him to shut the film down but he said no. And that this story really needs to be told. So the film was made anyways. He also said some people tried to negatively influence him on not producing the film. But it didn't work. I wonder why is he so invested in this story being brought to the screen? The fact that the Kennedy's couldn't get the movie shut down probably means their not as powerful anymore. Especially with Kennedy's getting arrested these days. And Papa Joe is long dead.

Isn't Byron Allen massively wealthy himself? Maybe even more so than individual Kenndys since their wealth has been distributed to so many individuals across generations.

R48: If he abandoned her to avoid facing the music then he more or less did kill her. I’m as left leaning as they come, however Ted Kennedy’s behaviour that night was despicable. He was always a sleazy opportunist. If it wasn’t for the Kennedy name and riding his brothers coattails he’d have been a nobody.

R46 thanks for the giggle.

I'm a big fan of RFK - especially his last couple years. See the speech he gave 50 years ago today. Best speech by a politician ever. If only he had lived.

Never felt the same way about Ted. I don't believe this new story. I think he left Mary Jo and tried to get his cousin to say he was in the car.

I guess he turned himself around and got redemption, And he was responsible for some good legislation. But he didn't have the soulful connection with the common person that Bobby had.

R46. Erh ahh, erh ahh, you must not be familiar with Patrick "Patches" Kennedy.

Homely as the day is long.

Every time you link to TMZ God kills a kitten.

That Lady Bird got around.

Oh those Kennedys!

They keep reinventing themselves even after death.

R36, I doubt it is him. He's lived in Chicago for a long time and seems fairly stable. I've not heard of any scandal associated with him. I did hear one of his commercials when he was running for the Democratic Primary for Governor and the first words out of him mouth were "My family...". That's a turn off for me. No more family dynasties, regardless of party, please. And absolutely no Kennedys. Particularly in our state. We have enough trouble without importing that bunch. I hope his defeat in the primary puts an end to political ambitions for him. The idea of that rotten bunch descending on our state working to get him elected turns my stomach.

As for who would still protect the Kennedys, some people underestimate the true believers who are still around who act like a set of courtiers, surrounding the family. Ass kissers all.

As well as some media types, like Chris Matthews, for one, who are still enamored of the Kennedys.

I don't know whre I heard or read this....but it was about Mary Jo giving Ted a BJ at the time as he drove. And he lost control at that "moment."

[quote] Just to insult [bold]the Kennedy's[/bold]

Please, make it stop!

This is like saying I knew nothing about Harvey.

R46 Yes. The first thing I thought of was just that. Both sets of horse teeth from both parents. The plug came out of the gene pool right around the instant he was conceived.

Did they check the grassy sandbar? Er, grassy knoll?

[quote] People claim to forget their children in the car and leave them to die in the sweltering heat of a locked vehicle. If you can believe that, I don’t see why you can’t believe this.

And these parents do this in broad daylight. This happened at night on an island with not all that much lighting. I can easily believe a person in the backseat could easily be overlooked especially if you were tipsy or drunk and amorously preoccupied.

However what I also believe is that Mary Jo left with Teddy. For whatever reasons.

CIA operative? Doe he operate a floor polisher at Langley?

What's with all the rubes like r50 lately? You can't read a thread about a show or movie without at least one "but the producer SAID [insert compelling anecdote here]." And always with a straight face.

Bobby Kennedy pinged loudly. He made all those kids to compensate for guilt about being gay.

If this is true, the woman would have been left out of the report to protect her image not just teds. Especially if it was a famous wife.

r39, I preferred that my fine women be like my fine wines: well seasoned, and allowed to mature.

[quote] He got the worst of Ethel and the worst of Bobby, and could probably eat an entire apple through a picket fence with those massively long teeth.

He could eat olives right out of the jar.

R70, I hope he gets checked for skin cancer. Don't like the looks of his complexion.

Sorry, re the photo at R36, I see lot of sun damage in his complexion. Hope he sees a dermatologist and often.

R43, okay let's get things straight.

No one was killed in the jeep accident, just paralyzed.

And the "creeping on your neighbor" incident does not involve Kennedys.

That he didn't know she was in the car is the only explanation that makes sense of his behavior. I believe it.

Time for your hot milk, Aunt Ethel, r74.

[quote] No one was killed in the jeep accident, just paralyzed.

That was just luck. Is she still paralyzed?

I don't believe people leave children in the car without knowing it.

How did the children get there the first place? They snuck in the back and laid low before the parents got it?

If you got in with the child you left the child there using the car as a babysitter which then killed the kid.

In other words you killed your child.

[quote]This sounds like they are trying to plant the seeds for this story to be viewed differently decades from now.

Who the hell is gong to care abut this story decades from now?

Why would the Chappaquiddick story have any bearing on Kennedys running for office now? They were either tiny children or not even born yet at the time.

In the darkness as she felt the cold water rising into her diminishing air bubble, Mary Jo knew without doubt the Crown Prince of America would save her.

Meanwhile Ted was concocting his alibi.

John Farrar, the scuba diver (head of Search and Rescue) who recovered Kopechne's body the next day helped to clarify the picture. She was in the well of the back seat of the overturned car, and her hands were clasping the backseat and her face was turned upward "to the area of an ultimate airpocket - she didn't drown. She died of suffocation in her own air void ... I could have had her out of that car (alive) twenty-five minutes after I got the call. But (Ted Kennedy) didn't make the call ... She could have been alive a good while after the car went off the bridge . (Mary Jo) was alive, easily an hour."

Farrar's expert opinion was excluded at the hearing, but Dr. Werner Spitz, deputy chief medical examiner for the state of Maryland, did testify and confirmed Farrar's opinion as being correct.

The official examining doctor stated that Mary Jo drowned, which frontally clashed with the expert opinions of the diver and the mortician in the case, who affirmed that death was not from drowning but from suffocation. The amount of water drawn from the body was too little for a drowning case, and her body was "too buoyant to be full of water." But the examining doctor wouldn't listen because he "didn't want to cause any problems."

Nor, would he request an autopsy. The gears of raw power and immense wealth had meshed. Kennedy received a two-month sentence – which was suspended – for leaving the scene of an accident.

R77, lots of kids die in cars because their parents forgot them.

The children fall sound asleep and make no noise.

R76, yes, her name is Pam Kelly.

Hmm.... Byron Allen. I remember him from his hosting days at "Real People" on NBC. Never knew he went on to become a powerful behind-the-scenes producer. Don't know much about him, but I wonder about his politics.

I thought Teddy killed Jessica Savitch.....

Well then WHO THE HELL WAS in the car?

Ted trying to sound innocent, r85. (Leave Joanie out of it).

I always heard Ted left the party with his sidepiece Cricket who had been a secretary of Bobby's. They were both drunk out of their minds but both managed to get out of the car. They didn't know Mary Jo was asleep in the backseat and so didn't bother about the car. When they finally made their way back to the party to get another ride, they found out Mary Jo was missing. They searched everywhere for her but by that time hours had gone by and they couldn't explain to the police what had happened. And Teddy was still too drunk to submit to a breathalyzer.

I meant that Joan still wants to know who Ted was with that night.

This isn't a new theory though it's presumed the woman he left with was Cricket.

Sorry, the idea of Mary Jo without telling anyone climbs in the back seat of someone's car and falls asleep and no one wonders what happened to her and misses her does not pass the smell test.

R90 she was very prudish and old-maidish and was offended by all the sexual antics at the party

She could have been a stalker, hiding in the backseat.

I've done it.

Agree, r90. Doesn't have the ring of truth. All fabrications.

r92 = DL FAV Lindsay Lohan.

[quote] she was very prudish and old-maidish and was offended by all the sexual antics at the party.

All the more reason that she would not climb into the backseat of a strange car.

Ted knew. He was guilty. He never should have been able to survive the scandal. But he did. And he's dead. Who cares now? The Kennedy's are idiots to even try to fight this. It happened. This "cia" person coming out with this lie, just proves that Ted knew she was in the car and didn't give a shit

Shame on Kate Mara for doing this. She's filthy rich and she's doing a shitty movie like this? For what? This is just going to give the repugs more ammunition. She's a filthy cunt. I hope she get's what she deserves

If Ted had any kind of decent excuse to use he would have used it all those years ago. Even back then he was able to come up with a better lie. It's was completely preposterous lie, but it was a better lie than this bullshit

He was a liar back then and his family is lying now. It's laughable that some of you idiots are believing any of this

SERIOUSLY. You idiots think that he was being blamed for her murder and he wouldn't have bothered to mention that he, "didn't even know she was in the car"? You people are fucking morons. Truly, truly fucking stupid, morons. About as dumb as trump supporters. If not dumber

The plot thickens......but people pretty well surmised what transpired even after all these years. She suffocated for hours in low tide. Ted showed up in a hotel in dry clothes. Homes nearby - he never bothered to ask for help.

Joan knew about Ted and his shenangians all along. Then she suffers a miscarriage in the aftermath.

Come on. Those who really know are not talking.

[quote] Shame on Kate Mara for doing this. She's filthy rich and she's doing a shitty movie like this? For what? This is just going to give the repugs more ammunition. She's a filthy cunt. I hope she get's what she deserves

This circling the wagons mentality is how Teddy managed to survive the accident and become the mythic "lion of the Senate".   I wasn't alive during the Kennedy era so I'm agnostic about their legacy but I think the film was as fair as it could be to Teddy considering the circumstances. He fucked up (whether from shock or self-preservation) majorly and a woman died because of it. His statement of the accident illuminated absolutely nothing about why he didn't get help when he had a chance to. That's something that's not even in the film --that he passed by several homes and never stopped to get help.

Why not display this event? The people who were around during that era have already made up their minds about the Kennedys and their legacy.  And if this film hadn't been made the repugs will still be trashing the Kennedys because of John and Bobby's infidelities.  Democrats have to own our shit and not be hypocrites like Republicans.

I was around at the time. And I grew up as a Kennedy "true believer" as I call them now.

I recall this incident very well and bought their story hook, line and sinker. (Although his televised statement where he claimed during the events that he "wondered if his family really was cursed"(!!!!!) made me wonder about his focusing on his family instead of the dead girl.)

As I matured and more and more revelations came out about the Kennedys and their amazingly collusion of their pals in the press (you guys have NOOO idea) I began to question more and more. (It's called growing up.)

I thought it particularly sleazy of him to send his wife Joan to visit Mary Jo's family.

For me, the clincher was the documentary that explained there was a house close to the bridge whose occupants were home that night and whose lights were on. And that given Teddy's story of events, he would have had to walk past that house after the accident.

The idea that someone, anyone, involved in such an accident would not immediately seek help from the closest possible source just does not make sense. It does not pass the smell test.

And all the rest, going to the hotel, changing his clothes, etc. and still not calling for help.... these actions are indefensible.

The fact that his career continued after the events convinced me that the voters of Massachusetts were delusional and there was apparently nothing the Kennedys could do that would turn people off.

Here's Teddy's TV address from July 25, 1969. (The incident was on July 18, 1969.)

If you've been watching the Kennedy documentary series on CNN, it's surprisingly critical of JFK - hasn't gotten to other members of the family yet. Pointing out that JFK appeared to be a warm person to the public while in private he was ice-cold and calculating.

The Kennedys are finished as a political force so I don't see how this new movie can harm them. The only Kennedy with an active political career is Joe Kennedy II and his mother wrote a book about his shitty father, RFK's oldest son who had an accident that left a girl paralyzed and who had his marriage to Joe III's mother annulled by the Catholic Church so he could marry his mistress.

I can't believe nobody here has read The Dark Side of Camelot which contains multiple jaw droppers throughout.

The Kennedy shit goes way beyond anything you could have imagined. Unless these are all lies the Kennedy slime goes up to the hairline.

But it seems that elderly women who were prostitutes for the Kennedys at the time only corroborate this stuff.

I listened to R101's video. I had to stop midway when Ted calmy stated he reported the accident THE NEXT DAY TO THE POLICE.

Republican porn after all these years.

But what I want to know is what Teddy threw off the Tallahatchie Bridge?

I slept soundly hovering over (dorm room bed) a loud cards-and-pizza party of a half-dozen others. And I was cold sober. It can happen.

I believe this version. It would explain Kennedy's initial calm back at the inn. Not to mention his ridiculous subsequent story about his swim (with HIS back? It's the Atlantic Ocean, FGS!)

R6, No. The story is coming out now because of the rise of Joe III.

All the Kennedy apologists (who have mostly since died) went berserk when Seymour Hersch brought out The Dark Side of Camelot as he was the most celebrated investigative journalist ever and a liberal. They found one error in the book and tried to claim it was all bullshit. It's a great read and you'll never admire the Kennedys again. When the former intern brought out her book about how JFK made her perform fellatio on Dave Powers and Teddy in the White House swimming pool in front of everybody, that pretty much put to rest any remaining sympathy for him.

The hopes of the Kennedy clan died with JFK jr.

Caroline's obviously trying to groom her son to be a politician.

Drunk driving accident on a dark night on a narrow bridge . The End.

[quote] the former intern brought out her book about how JFK made her perform fellatio on Dave Powers and Teddy in the White House swimming pool in front of everybody

What was the book title and the author's name?

R108, can you tell us the one error in that book please?

R113 don't recall exactly, it was something to do with Marilyn Monroe's whereabouts on a certain day prior to her death. Though Hersch never claims the Kennedys had her murdered, he did report that Marilyn had gotten Jackie's direct phone number and called her to let her know she was having an affair with her husband a couple of weeks before her death. If all JFK's other paramours wouldn't have had the ear of the press, Marilyn certainly would have and calling Jackie obviously showed JFK and RFK she "would not be ignored".

All I know about the case is that years and years ago when I was young and had just left school and started working downtown - there was this bizarre elderly woman - early seventies I’m guessing - tall and lean and still quite striking looking!m- with long, light grey hair - who wandered the city streets with a dignified, but kind of faraway look to her face...

She was always dressed in a pale cotton shift dress thing - blue or green or grey - that looked just a little bit sister-wifey - before that was a thing! - and she always had on this calico kind of sign. It was like an adult version of a baby’s bib or something like that - but rear facing. And it had a hand painted message on it saying ‘Edward Kennedy behaved nobly and bravely at Chappaquiddick’.

I barely even knew what this was about. It had happened years before - and we’re not even in America! (It was in Sydney, Australia). Saw her many times in the street over a period of a couple of years - then never again.

But holy cow! That Kennedy star power must’ve been something if they even had fan girls espousing the party line on the other side of the planet! Amazing!

The drooling heir to Camelot

Thanks, R108.

I read that book a few years back.

I have always wondered.......Ethel Kennedy had a baby every 18 months to 2 years for every year of her marriage. (Bless her!) Except the years 1960, 1961, and 1962..... Hmmm, did she miscarry then? Or did she stop having babies with Bobby during the MM years?

R116 - Re Fiddle and Faddle

If you look closely you can find Fiddle and Faddle in the big cocktail party scene in the movie "Advise and Consent" which was shot partly in Washington. One of the big magazines (Look? Life?) did a story on the pair working at the White House.

You can find pictures of them online if you look. Especially after the other intern's book came out.

You put your child in a seat and the kid falls asleep so you forget about them.

Yeah it happens I guess at night. You put your child to bed at night they fall asleep and the next morning you forget about them.

People who put children in cars where they suffocate to death are murderers. They just didn't want to drag the kid around with them.

This thread has led me to check out some documentaries over on youtube.

There are lots of clips about the movie and interviews, but I was looking for documentaries.

Here's a link to a pretty good one with Ian Holm doing the narrating.

There was another one as well.

Well worth watching because whatever went on that night, Kennedy changed his story, the Kennedy power arm tried in a blunt fashion to get the NBC reporter covering the story removed, and the Kennedy clan even managed to manipulate the system to get Mary Jo's body removed from the local jurisdiction before an autopsy could be performed. The women who had been at the party refused to talk to the authorities, Teddy after his first statement went back to Hyannis and his family pulled up the drawbridge.

A deal was made for a slap on the wrist and by the time he went on TV a week later his story had changed, mentioning for the first time that he had gone back to the party for cousin Joe Gargan and another guy to go back and try to rescue Mary Jo. (He had never put this in his statement or mentioned any of it to the police.)

There are timeline discrepancies with non-involved witnesses and all kinds of speculation.

Absolutely outrageous.

I didn't remember half of this stuff and it's much worse that I thought.

The diver who got her out of the car, I found interviewed on another Youtube item. Because of Mary Jo's position in the car, he determined she had not drowned and probably suffocated. He claims that the funeral director told him that after handling a significant number of dead drowning victims, he could tell that Mary Jo had not drowned because of the lack of water in her body. (The death certificate was quickly written, giving drowning as the cause of death.) The diver was also skeptical about Teddy's story about getting out of the car due to Teddy height, weight and the back brace that he wore. The diver wondered if Teddy, going too fast when he saw the bridge, jumped out of the car before it hit the water.

Here's the radio interview with the diver with a Q&A after.

I don't like the radio host, but the diver's statements ring true.

Here's a brief interview with Mary Jo's cousin about the family's reaction at the time of the death and their reaction to the movie.

Sad.

One of the women at the party, Esther Newberg, told reporters again and again in a series of interviews she gave the week after the accident that she didn't see Kennedy or Kopechne leave and that no one was keeping track of the time. She said she had a "Mickey Mouse watch" that "wasn't working properly" . . . a psychedelic one that "you couldn't read."

An earlier (1991) interview with Mary Jo's cousin, speaking for the family, about why they believed Teddy's story at first and now do not.

Bingo!, r107. I couldn’t figure out why this movie was coming out now until I saw the story on Joe lll this weekend. Gotta tarnish them early, I guess.

You wouldn't even know about Joe III except that he's a Kennedy and that gets him privileges you can't even dream of.

I worked with a man who was best man in Mary Jo's cousin's wedding. He said the Kopechnes got a brand new house after Mary Jo's demise.

R126, one might have heard of him being a US congressman. You sound bitter and angry.

Washington Post article on Chappaquiddick from 10 years after.

Washington Post article on Chappaquiddick - 20 years later.

Ted Kennedy was absolute slime

The rise of Joe III

Oh, now that's HYSTERICAL

Regarding R123

[quote]One of the women at the party, Esther Newberg, told reporters again and again in a series of interviews she gave the week after the accident that she didn't see Kennedy or Kopechne leave and that no one was keeping track of the time. She said she had a "Mickey Mouse watch" that "wasn't working properly" . . . a psychedelic one that "you couldn't read."

[quote]At the inquest, she said she did see both Kennedy and Kopechne leaving together.

[quote]Q. Can you tell us when?

[quote]Newberg: 11:30

[quote]Q: What makes you say 11:30?

[quote]Newberg: I have a rather large watch that I wear all the time and I looked at it.

[quote]Why didn't she say that earlier when she volunteered to meet the press?

[quote]"I was always smart," she told a Washington Post reporter recently. "It [that question] seemed crucial to me in some way."

[quote]Newberg also noted that she was only 27 at the time of the interviews. "I was a kid is the point," she said. "I can't say it was out of caution or to be misleading. I was under pressure [in those interviews]. It was incredibly traumatic."

My theory is that the Kennedy family gave their okay to this film

I have not seen it, but the New York Times review indicates that it is not overly harsh on EMK. It also makes no implication of a sexual relationship between EMK and Mary Jo.

The more you look at the events and the reliable, uncoerced witnesses, the more details of the coverup and the non sequiturs that are exposed, the blatant pressure and manipulation of both law enforcement and the legal system, the more angry and outraged honest people should be.

It's truly startling to see all that has been uncovered and finally, after almost 50 years, come into the light.

It's hard to take seriously anyone who would be willing to overlook this kind of behavior and laugh about this situation.

Reports are that Teddy loved to laugh at Chappaquiddick jokes.

R135 I'd like to see evidence or something more substantial than your stating that. I mean, Chappaquiddick was a tragedy, and probably more important to him, cost him the presidency. I doubt he found any aspect of it funny.

[quote] [R135] I'd like to see evidence or something more substantial than your stating that. I mean, Chappaquiddick was a tragedy, and probably more important to him, cost him the presidency. I doubt he found any aspect of it funny.

Here you are, R136. from Ed Klein, former Newsweek editor, one of Teddy's friends.

Ed Klein writes books that attack the Kennedys

Again, R136, from NPR, August 2009.

I heard this story 20 years ago.

And I.

R137 Ed Klein writes rightwing bullshit books attacking Democrats.

Republican porn retold time and time again.

Personally, I would like a film on George W Bush's AWOL weeks as a pilot of a plane that would never see service.

Teddy was a fucking slime ball. He was a murderer too.

Who knows, maybe his car was tampered with. They killed Bobby Kennedy, even if you don’t believe some of the more outlandish conspiracy theories.

[quote] Who knows, maybe his car was tampered with.

More likely the bridge.

[quote] Republican porn retold time and time again.

Oh, yes, of course.

The Police Chief in Kennedy Country - a Republican? Hardly.

The Judge who did not believe him - A Republican? Hilarious.

The Search and Rescue Diver, The Deputy, The Funeral Director, The Grand Jury Foreman, The parents, the family - All Republicans? Hardly.

You are fooling yourself.

r147, the narrative is Republican porn. A narrative is something retold.

I did not say it was a porn of Republicans.

I believe that you are the one fooling yourself.

Go away and learn to read critically.

If his story was true that they were leaving the party to catch the ferry to go back to their respective hotels, then why did Mary Jo not take either her purse or the key to her motel room?

Why did he say in court that he had never been on the island before when there were witnesses who had seen him before?

Why is the timeline screwed up based on the fact that deputy saw his car on the road at a time that did not match Teddy's story?

Too many things never made sense.

Frequently the coverup gets one in more trouble than if one had told the straight story right off.

R149, so true.

Question; was Kennedy ever seen in soaking wet clothes?

The more one reads about this, the more confusing it gets.

r150, that is the heart of conspiracy theories.

Occam's Razor.

Got drunk, drove off bridge, left scene. Didn't know she was in the back seat.

Then what was she doing in the back seat if he didn't know? What was she an 8 year old playing hide and seek?

Enough with this Irish shanty white trash family whose patriarch was a bootlegging Nazi. Whose sons practically started a nuclear war with Russia and got us into one of our greatest national catastrophes Vietnam.

The only good thing I can say is that the karma Joe Kennedy suffered was dished out by the most vengeful and cruel of gods.

For christ sakes. One does not "dive" repeatedly to recover a person they did not know was in the car.

This is his own testimony. His own words. Stupid people make my head hurt.

Just stop. Thank you.

The Search & Rescue diver was skeptical of Teddy's story about swimming back. Partly because he (the diver) had done it himself and knew it was hard, partly because Kennedy's story was how he exhausted himself diving on the car both at the time of the accident and then again when he went back with the 2 men from the party (his cousin Joe Gargan and another). Another factor was pointed out to the diver by a writer who had been following Teddy around for some days for his story. The writer said that he had seen Teddy with his back brace which made his swimming difficult if not impossible. Also, the diver claimed that Teddy talked about coming ashore after the swim at one point which was not where one would have come ashore given the tides at the time.

And then there is the messed up timeline. Teddy gave a time when telling about going back to the cottage after the accident that was based, according to him, the the time on the clock in the car they were using. There was no clock in the car.

Particularly infuriating is that when leaving the accident and walking back to the cottage, he walked past, not only houses which were occupied where he could have phoned for help, but also the Fire Station which had a lit alarm that was to be used when help was needed. His story is that he walked past these to go back to the cottage.

There is also information out there from the man who was the foreman of the Grand Jury (run, I think, six months after the accident) who talks about how they were lied to, threatened and stymied which frustrated any attempt to do their job.

The Search and Rescue diver's story is well worth listening to. You can find it on Youtube.

R154 I saw an interview with Jason Clarke. He said he dived into the water at the spot the car went in and swimming in it was very difficult and he's a very strong swimmer.

The police chief who was called to the scene after fisherman saw the car, borrowed swimming trunks from a nearby house and dove down on the car. He was not able to do much and climbed up and sat on the roof of the car. The Search & rescue people had already been called and it was that diver who got Mary Jo out of the car.

He said that, the car being upside down, she had positioned her body to stay with her head out of the water into the air bubble at the top (which was the bottom of the car.) The body was not floating around, waterlogged as a drowning victim would have been.

As he got the body out and to the surface, the police chief asked him worriedly if he (the diver) could identify the girl. The diver was upset at the chief's focus, but turned the body over so the chief could see her face. The chief could then see that she was not one of the Kennedy girls who he knew.

And the entire American media obediently lined up in their Kennedy-love and let Ted get away with it. Back then there was no Drudge or similar outlets to tell what New York and Washington refused to tell.

Thank you! I've been looking all day for it.

Why did his wife stay with him after the accident? She must have known exactly what he was getting upto with Mary Jo in the car. I mean, how could she stay with him after learning he’d abandoned the girl to die, did she just not give a shit. Not only that, she then visited the Kopechne family on Teddy’s behalf.

[quote] Why did his wife stay with him after the accident?

It was a very different time. What exactly was she going to do? She was/is by all accounts a mess as well.

R153 If you believe that Mary Jo hid in the car AND Teddy didn't know she was in the car you are an idiot. Dumber than anyone in the history of The DL.

Very interesting thread. Well thought out.

I have read, but cannot now locate, a book or article that offered the theory that, having been noticed by a passing car while he was parked with MJK, Kennedy got out and walked, finding his way back and letting MJK to drive herself. Being unfamiliar with terrain, as Ted was not unfamiliar, she simply had an unfortunate accident, of which Kennedy was unaware until later.

Joan was a terrible alcoholic. Though it might have been triggered by his infidelities, she went on to become a passing-out drunk. Well after their divorce, the cops found her passed out in the street.

"In 2005, Boston police found a disoriented woman lying bleeding and alone on a Beacon Hill sidewalk after she had taken a drunken fall. Joan Kennedy -- the first wife of the late Sen. Edward Kennedy -- was unrecognizable to the Good Samaritan who had helped her that rainy night."

Is there a monolith Kennedy family anymore that could even speak with one voice and power to stop the film? The RFK branch seems to be focused on their assorted drama and addiction and pushing Joe Kennedy III. The JFK branch is really just Caroline who bombed spectacularly when given the chance to succeed Hillary. It seems like shes more grooming the son to be Mr. New York, like his uncle, rather than to be a politician.

I watched Joe Kennedy III on the morning shows this weekend (or last) and was really unimpressed. Sure, he's young and idealistic, but nothing he said made me feel like he could fix this country anymore than 12 other leading Democrats. He seemed the personification of someone we would never be subjected to if his last name wasn't Kennedy.

So ummm if there was some high profile politician's wife hanging out at the party with Ted Kennedy... wouldn't we know that by now? Wouldn't someone at the party have mentioned it? Who could it even be? Muriel Humphrey would have seemed like an odd choice for Ted Kennedy, seeing as she was so much older. Eleanor McGovern, was an alcoholic . Abigail McCarthy? Maybe Tip O'Neill's wife?

The other women at the party all refused to talk to police, then got on a plane and left the jurisdiction.

These 6 women, including Mary Jo, were not kids. Mary Jo was a few weeks away from her 29th birthday. They were all experienced at the political game and had all worked on Bobby Kennedy's campaign in 1968. Mary Jo was at the hotel the night RFK was shot and was on the funeral train as well.

R163 - I've seen that theory. The deputy sheriff who was on his way home saw Teddy's black car on the side of the road with a man in the front seat, and someone in the passenger seat. He was unsure if there was anyone in the back seat. The deputy stopped because he wondered if they were lost or having car trouble. Recognized Kennedy's car and remembered part of the license plate. The car, presumably because the occupants saw the cop approaching, then sped off down the road. The deputy's evidence and his evidence about the time he saw the car differed from what Kennedy's story was, all of which called the timeline into question.

Later, Kennedy claimed that the deputy was mistaken.

It doesn't seem to make sense that Kennedy would ever tell the story and claim to be in the car if he had walked away and gone back to the cottage.

Video of the roads (Youtube) show that the road from the cottage was paved and show a yellow road sign showing a leftward curving arrow which appears to show the way the main (paved road) goes. At that same point where the main road curves left, a hard right turn onto a dirt road heads off toward the bridge. If I recall correctly, investigators believe the car was traveling at a faster speed than would be prudent to cross the bridge. I think they talked to Ted's chauffeur who had driven Ted over the bridge earlier.

I think you need to remember that all the Kennedy's men's infidelities had been kept secret, even the press which was aware of them refused to report on them. During the election campaign Pamela Tourneau's landlady had seen JFK repeatedly leaving her apartment in the early morning hours. She was disgusted as Jackie was pregnant and Tourneau was her social secretary. She tattled to every journalist she could, she even had photos of JFK and the press refused to report on it.

Mary Meyer was one of JFK's longer term mistresses. She was murdered after his death and all sorts of looney tune conspiracies turned up because she had been married to a guy who worked for the CIA and her diary was stolen about the time of her death. Occam's Razor: RFK had her murdered to shut her up. I also think RFK ordered the murder of Marilyn who would have had access to the press unlike other mistresses.

At the time, being Catholic, married with a pregnant wife and cheating on her was political death - which is why I think Ted tried to foist another theory on the public.

R169

I never heard that story about Pamela Tourneau. Interesting. What happened to the pictures?

[quote] Mary Meyer was one of JFK's longer term mistresses.

Wasn't she Bed Bradlee's sister-in-law?

Awk! Obviously that should be "Ben", not "Bed" Bradlee.

Bradlee was her brother-in-law. Don't know what happened to the pics but the woman could never get any press to print her story. How times have changed.

Diving in to try to save MJK....so damn suspicious.

We all know it is crazy difficult to attempt to swim if you are wearing street clothes.

I remember reading a biography of Joan Kennedy many years ago.

I am pretty sure it said that after her 1969 miscarriage, Joan decided not to try to get pregnant again. She had more than one miscarriage (others have said 3, but I honestly don't remember the number) and she was done with baby making.

Good observation, r164. My mother, god bless her, wisely stated that after Joan got her first DUI, everybody felt so sorry for her because Teddy was so mean to her. The rumor has always persisted that Teddy was less than gentle in his lovemaking. My mother pointed out that there was that son with cancer, and what's she doing? Drinking whiskey.

At first reading of Ted's walking away, perhaps not, r168. But to admit that deed, Ted would effectively be admitting having been up to no good. His way, he tried his hardest to rescue Mary Jo, with whom he had simply shared an innocent ride, and further risked his life by swimming ashore even with a back once broken in a plane crash.

Ya pays yer money,......

I read (parts of) EMK's book, "True Compass."

He writes in great detail about his second wife, and says precious little about his first.

About Joan he describes that he had never before met a woman as beautiful as she.

She fit the bill so she got to be Mrs. K.

R164, I doubt that Joan ever resorted to drinking rubbing alcohol like Kitty Dukakis did.

No R178, Joan drank vanilla extract and mouthwash instead.

Remember reading somewhere that said MJK was not wearing panties when found.

Joan Kennedy comes from a prominent Bronxville family -- not a golddigger or a striver.

Haven't' seen the doc. however, the most damning fact re: Chappaquiddick is this: if Ted was headed for the ferry why did he make a hard right towards the beach. He said he made a wrong turn. It's impossible to make a wrong turn on that part of the road. If he was driving he made the wrong turn for a reason -- a sexual liason and yes there are a couple of houses on that road where he could've asked for aid. No one at the time believed his story -- completely fabricated.

When Ted was still alive this thread would have gotten you banned.

All of Ted's kids had problems. Teddy Jr had to have his leg amputated when he was young due to cancer. Patrick is mentally ill (and, to his credit, he has become an advocate for the mentally ill). The daughter died when she was only 51 of a heart attack but she had been treated for years before that for cancer.

So much tragedy has befallen the Kennedy's. It makes you wonder if what everyone says about papa joe and the supposed horrible things he's done in his life is the reason for why so many bad things have happened to his family is true or not.

Good point, r184.

Chappaquiddick was a tragedy for Mary Jo Kopechne.

She is frequently forgotten and the picture focuses on Teddy Kennedy and how it impacted him.

This situation was one of his making.

The fact that it is still a topic today is because of his and his family's shenanigans at the time where they used their fame and power to hide what really happened.

And it's fair game to discuss the obviously manipulated and deliberately blurred events.

I waste no tears for Ted on this topic. He left plenty of wreckage in his wake. Those people are deserving of our sympathy.

Bravo, r186!

Negligent homicide.

Enough of the revisionist nonsense from the get-go.

The Mary Jo story just makes me so damn sad.

1969 was so long ago....

A married man in the company of a single woman just would not be a scandal today, and there would be no need for...........whatever the heck happened that night that led to MJ not being rescued from that car.

R179, there was an old episode of "Family Ties" where a pre cinematic fame Tom Hanks starred as the alcoholic Uncle Ned.

He got caught guzzling the vanilla extract from the pantry and came out with the line, "Don't bake and drive!"

This version of the story was widely believe in Georgetown and the townhouses of Old Town Alexandria back in the 70s.

[quote] This version of the story was widely believe in Georgetown and the townhouses of Old Town Alexandria back in the 70s.

Just as everybody in Hollywood knew about Harvey's crimes.

Which version is R191 referring to?

There are any number of them on this thread.

The version which states that Mary Jo was asleep in the back seat and a drunken Teddy did not know she was there.

Another thing about all this that I find really disturbing is that the other 5 women at the party, who were supposedly Mary Jo's friends, who had come up to share time, all of them, refused to talk to the police and left the jurisdiction. Refused to talk about what really happened.

What kind of friends would these women have been? Knowing that their friend had suffocated in that car?

And Ester Newberg became a big literary agent.

Is anyone listening to People's podcast on Chappaquiddick called Cover-Up?

R197, no!

Care to share?

I watched Chappaquiddick a few nights back. It was an ok movie and it tried to make the audience feel sorry for Joe Gargan. Kate Mara wasn't a great choice to play Kopechne.

I do think a limited series about the different Chappaquiddick theories and investigations would have been good for FX or USA since they did that the limited series about the Biggie and Tupac murders.

[quote]This isn't a new theory though it's presumed the woman he left with was Cricket.

If the Cricket theory is true. Then Cricket is a piece of shit to cover up her friend's death. One of those Boiler Room girls probably knows something. They are in their late 70s by now, maybe there will be a deathbed confession someday.

If he didn't know she was in the car, why make up a story about him driving her home?

R161 forgets that one of our posters left his boyfriend of 10 years to marry a woman because viagra was going to give him a "normal life."

That's sets a pretty high bar for stupidity.

[quote]If he didn't know she was in the car, why make up a story about him driving her home?

Some believe that he made up the story to cover up an affair with another woman was in the front seat with him. People Magazine did a podcast called Cover-Up and they reviewed several theories and interviewed Mary Jo's cousin. The cousin received a letter from a man who claimed that a Boiler Room girl who he referred to as "Betty" in the letter. "Betty" supposedly worked with the man's wife and that she revealed to the man and his wife that she knew the true story of Chappaquiddick.

"Betty" was at the party and knew Mary Jo drank too much and wasn't feeling well. For some reason, "Betty" got Mary Jo to lay down in the backseat of the car. "Betty" claims she went back to the party and then later went to bed. The next morning, others at the party told "Betty" that Ted and another woman(not MJ) had been an accident and had escaped from the car. Then "Betty" asked about Mary Jo being in the backseat and no one else other than "Betty" knew that MJ was in the car. The cousin said that she didn't know whether to believe the story that the man wrote.

The other woman in the car apparently was the driver. Remember Ted's cuts were on the right side of his head. Anthony Summers' book on J. Edgar Hoover has a good description, without naming the woman.

[quote]r116 The drooling heir to Camelot

ALL of our lip glosses will smear in the summer heat, at one time or another.

My theory is that Ted and Rosemary Keough were going to fuck and she put her purse in the car for the later trip. Ted then decided to sleep with another woman and they drove off with a passed out Mary Jo in the backseat. Rosemary was pissed and later decided to make that "“My friend Mary Jo just happened to be in the wrong car at the wrong time with the wrong people" comment to throw shade to Ted and the other woman he fucked instead of her.

R204 Did the description match Rosemary Keough?

None of these tales explains why Teddy, while walking back to the cottage after the car went off the bridge, walked past the completely visible alarm on the fire station which would have summoned help. Or why he did not ask for help from any of the other houses with lights on.

Nor does it explain his ridiculous story of swimming back, debunked by others who knew his physical limitations while wearing that back brace.

The description of what the rescue diver saw and deduced, based on his experience of drowning accidents and victims, etc. is well worth listening to. You can find it on Youtube.

R208 Some have the theory that Ted and Mary Jo were parked and about to have sex and he freaked out when the cop was approaching the car. He then drove somewhere and got out and told Mary Jo to drive around and then pick him up. Mary Jo unfamiliar with the road an bridge drove off it.

I did like in the Chappaquiddick movie when Ted's in the car with Joan and thanks her for accompanying him to the court and she says "Fuck you Ted".

Well, R208, none of that explains the phony neck brace, the obviously untrue story about him swimming back, his creating a false alibi at the hotel, using his family connections to transport the body out of state without an autopsy which would have revealed that MJ did not drown, his telling her family that he would tell them the whole story when the media circus died down (he didn't, of course) , the obscenely self-serving television statement ("I wondered if my family really was cursed") and a host of other bullshit the he and the Kennedy family and their despicable enablers were a part of.

If you sense a real anger from me, it is because at the time I believed his whole tale, the neck brace, etc. and only after the long time it took for the truth to come out did I realize that I had been lied to, foolishly believing it all and that the whole "Kennedy" family image was a pile of horse shit, cow shit, bull shit and every other kind of shit.

I don't like to be lied to and that whole cadre is a bunch of liars.

Of course he knew. I have never understood the medias love affair with this corrupt, drunk and dead behind the eyes white trash clan. Even the much exalted Jackie was a materialistic,and snide snot nose brat, who as the late Joan Rivers put it "had her legs in two time zones from her Teen years on ". A truly vile cabal.

The disgusting swine even went to the hotel clerk and made a fuss about the "noise " from the other room, he wanted an alibi . Its funny how the Irish American media (Chris Matthews, Maureen "Cunt " Dowd, etc) couldn't stop shrieking about Clinton's affairs but still fall all over themselves to exalt this shanty white trash filth.

Who did he think was in the car, Ruth Buzzi?

Parents forget that their kids are in the car (then leave them locked in there to suffocate). If we’re supposed to buy that, I don’t see why we can’t believe that a severely intoxicated man didn’t notice that a woman was passed out in the back seat. And cars were huge back then, so she had plenty of room to go unnoticed.

[quote] I don’t see why we can’t believe that a severely intoxicated man didn’t notice that a woman was passed out in the back seat.

Because it doesn't match Kennedy's own accounts of the event.

Kopechne’s blood-alcohol concentration was tested after her death (one of the few tests done before her body was embalmed and sent home to her parents) and it was .09 percent.

As for the scenario that she and Ted were in the car for sex, she was never interested in Teddy. Mary Jo worked for Bobby and was devastated when he was killed. So much so that she thought about leaving politics altogether. Story was that she didn't think much of Teddy at all.

The film makes it appear that Ted and Mary Jo were practically dating.

The Chappaquiddick incident would have better off as a limited series focusing on different theories with a bit more focus on Mary Jo's background. Leo Damore's book and the recent podcast on Chappaquiddick gave a lot of info on Mary Jo. Friends and family claim she wasn't' a party girl and that she had a boyfriend at the time and wanted to get engaged. It's possible she had a side they didn't know about.

The college studio photograph of Mary Jo that was circulated after her death was airbrushed and very flattering. In reality she was a dumpy old maid type, not vaguely the hottie Ted would go after. His side piece was in Chappaquiddick too. Her name was Cricket. He probably was driving with her, unaware Mary Jo was in the backseat. When they went back to the party and put 2 and 2 together, they figured out Mary Jo was in the car but they were all too drunk to call the cops and put together a decent story.

Cricket looked liked a butch lesbian. She was also an attention whore when it came to Mary Jo's death. There's a news photo online of her and another boiler room girl at Mary Jo's grave on the one year anniversary.

The boiler room girls were real cunts to help cover up Mary Jo's death. A few of them later bitched that the accident impacted their careers and the ones who became lawyers complained about not getting judgeships.

R222 don't forget the Kennedys were royalty back in those days - no liberal dared criticize them

The boiler room girls were probably threatened. It's still awful that they likely helped in the cover-up.

I suspect Ethel Kennedy also helped somehow in the cover-up. She liked Mary Jo during Bobby's campaign and then offered Mary Jo the job of being governess to the 11 kennedy brats. But, Ethel had to protect the Kennedy name and her gravy train and then probably didn't care that Ted was responsible for MJ's death.

[quote] In reality she was a dumpy old maid type

Hogwash.

See the photo below.

Her family has been talking more about her as they are angry that she has become known as only "The Girl in the Car". Supposedly she was very smart, well education and played a very important role in the RFK campaign.

If Ethel was stupid and ignorant enough to offer her a job as "Governess" then Ethel is an even more stupid that I thought.

Even in 1968, for someone like MJ, that would be an insulting. Why would someone who had a real career of her own want to be a Governess unless that was the career path they had already chosen.

Here's another picture of Mary Jo.

R225 There was an article somewhere that described how Mary Jo spent a lot of time with Ethel and the kids during the RFK campaign. I do agree, Ethel was ignorant and stupid to offer that kind of job to Mary Jo.

Here's a pic of Mary Jo and some of the other Boiler Room girls with RFK. She was a bit prettier than the other ones pictured.

Rosemary Keough gave an interview on video several years after the accident. She seemed annoyed that Mary Jo had been painted as saintly and innocent since her death. Rosemary went on to say that Mary Jo was a red blooded, fun loving girl. She was 28 when she died in 1969, so she surely enjoyed the advantages the 1960s offered.

Mary Jo's parents were said to have been very devout Catholics. They were probably desperate to make sure Mary Jo was seen as a "good girl".

Well, if the drunk driver didn't know there was a body in the car, THAT MAKES EVERYTHING BETTER!

Phew!

I was so worried for the reputation of a dead Kennedy.

[quote]If Ethel was stupid and ignorant enough to offer her a job as "Governess" then Ethel is an even more stupid that I thought.

Ethel was pretty stupid. I had to put up with her for years.

I listened to a podcast that interviewed the Chappaquiddick screenwriters. One of the guys lives in LA and the other in Texas. They pretty worked on it through google docs and editing back and forth. I didn't think the movie was awful. It could have been better.

[quote]Rosemary Keough gave an interview on video several years after the accident. She seemed annoyed that Mary Jo had been painted as saintly and innocent since her death. Rosemary went on to say that Mary Jo was a red blooded, fun loving girl. She was 28 when she died in 1969, so she surely enjoyed the advantages the 1960s offered.

I suspect that all of the Boiler Room girls dabbled in fun during the RFK campaign. The women were all ok going to party thrown by married men.

Ted had no reason to hurt that girl and after going in that water at night, there was no way for him to save her anyway.. He was probably drunk...bad things happen to drunk people.

Just watched this "Investigative Reports" on Chappaquiddick on Youtube.

Interesting, although it was done around 2004.

Some points of conflict with other sources I've seen:

An expert on these kinds of auto crashes did analysis based on schematics of bridge, schematics of car, it's center of gravity, the damage to the car.

His conclusions were:

1. Due to the condition of the body, based on those who viewed the body, there was no bruises, clothes were not in disarray, no indication of finger nail scratching, etc, that MJK was NOT in the passenger seat of the car when it went off the bridge. (The direction of the car going off and the damage to the outside passenger door would have meant that anyone in the passenger seat would have shown injuries.)

2. Based on his experiences of accidents and tests that auto manufacturers do testing how autos react when going into the water, he does not believe that there would have been any air bubble in the car leading to the conclusion that MJK did in fact drown, not suffocate as others had speculated.

Others experts on the show doubt TK's testimony of how he got out of the car. Again, tests of autos going into the water with skilled equipped scuba divers indicate that it is very unlikely that TK was telling the truth about how he got out of the car.

Also witnesses who talked to TK at the hotel in the morning said that he was relaxed and comfortable and pleasant until Gargan and the other guy (who, according to the same witnesses) were both wet, ran up, grabbed TK, took him inside and when he came out a few minutes later, TK was clearly upset and left immediately.

None of the boiler room girls testified that Gargan and the other men came back to the cottage wet, as they would have been if as TK testified, they had dived on the car the night of the accident.

No absolute conclusions reached except that TK was not telling the truth and refused to talk about it after the court case.

Worth seeing.

R234 A diver or responder might have been able to save her.

I recommend listening to the podcast Cover-Up. In one episode, the grand jury inquest foreman was interviewed and he was pissed for many years that the DA fucked up the case.

[quote]Another thing about all this that I find really disturbing is that the other 5 women at the party, who were supposedly Mary Jo's friends, who had come up to share time, all of them, refused to talk to the police and left the jurisdiction. Refused to talk about what really happened.

[quote]What kind of friends would these women have been? Knowing that their friend had suffocated in that car?

The women were taken off the island quickly by Gargan and Markham. The police kind of screwed up by not really pushing for interviews with the women. The women didn't have much power when it came to the Kennedys. A few of them found success in their careers as attorneys and Esther Newberg became a successful literary agent and they weren't going to jeopardize their careers. Newberg has a twitter under the handle @tategeorge, where she is very anti-Trump and a Trumpster tweeted this to her after she trashed Trump. I hate Trump as well, but if Newberg and her pals indeed helped cover shit up-- it's shitty of her to go on tirades.

esther newberg ‏@tategeorge Apr 7 More Piece of crap building you put up, DonAld .Second fire this year @realDonaldTrump. You put fire fighters in jeopardy. Fake gold burns #ImpeachTrump #CNN mmc ‏@maurasausalito @maurasausalito Replying to @tategeorge @realDonaldTrump Well at least he never left a girl to suffocate in the back seat of a car like your buddy Ted Kennedy did—a cover up you participated in—you ceded the moral high ground to the rest of the world in 1969, so give it a rest

[quote]The film makes it appear that Ted and Mary Jo were practically dating.

An early draft of the screenplay featured a scene of them getting dressed after having sex.

I read a paperback book that came out in the late 70s or early 80s. The police, the DA, the press, everyone, covered for Ted, no one dared not to because they were Kennedys. I am liberal but I detest the Kennedys. One thing of note - both JFK and RFK messed around with young women in the WH that were not that attractive. So if MJK wasn't that attractive I don't think it mattered to the Kennedy men. Theirs was one of upmanship, first with their father and then the other brothers.

I've read a few books on the case. The DA and the cops fucked up the case. But, what's also infuriating is that the Boiler Room girls and the other men at the party changed their stories about that night several times. In Joe McGinniss' book The Last Brother, he pointed out inconsistencies with Esther Newberg's statements in newspaper interviews compared to the inquest. She claimed in newspaper interviews that the gathering was quiet cookout and that they only had one or two drinks. A neighbor nearby contradicted that and said it was noisy party and he almost considered calling the cops. I wondered if McGinnis had beef with Newberg because he focused on her inconsistencies and changing stories quite a bit in the book.

Other books brought up Rosemary Keough's changing stories which plays into why many people believe she was in the front seat with Ted. She claimed that her purse was in the car because she and Charles Tretter went to a get radio during the party. There was a witness who saw Tretter in the car neary the ferry, but the witness said that Tretter was alone. Another theory was that Susan Tannenbaum was in the front seat because she was gone from the party house early the next morning along with Keough, Gargan, and Markham.

[quote]So if MJK wasn't that attractive I don't think it mattered to the Kennedy men. Theirs was one of upmanship, first with their father and then the other brothers.

Well, RFK's wife Ethel wasn't attractive. She and RFK looked like siblings.

[quote]Rosemary Keough gave an interview on video several years after the accident. She seemed annoyed that Mary Jo had been painted as saintly and innocent since her death. Rosemary went on to say that Mary Jo was a red blooded, fun loving girl. She was 28 when she died in 1969, so she surely enjoyed the advantages the 1960s offered.

I'm sure all of those women were passed around and used by they Kennedy guys and their close male friends.

True R108, she did write a book and she was date raped by JFK. [quote]All the Kennedy apologists (who have mostly since died) went berserk when Seymour Hersch brought out The Dark Side of Camelot as he was the most celebrated investigative journalist ever and a liberal. They found one error in the book and tried to claim it was all bullshit. It's a great read and you'll never admire the Kennedys again. When the former intern brought out her book about how JFK made her perform fellatio on Dave Powers and Teddy in the White House swimming pool in front of everybody, that pretty much put to rest any remaining sympathy for him.

R103 It has been awhile since I read that book I was not really that surprised by it but what were the jaw dropping moments for you? For example I was not surprised that JFK and Jackie were both addicted to meth that Max Jacobson (July 3, 1900 – December 1, 1979) was a German-born New York physician, nicknamed "Miracle Max" and "Dr. Feelgood", who administered amphetamines and other medications to several high-profile clients, including President John F. Kennedy.

[quote]Years ago I saw a documentary on this series of events.

[quote]There was a house quite close to the bridge and the night of the incident the occupants were home and the lights were on.

[quote]So, anyone seeking help had a place to go that was very close.

I remember that documentary too. I also recall an article that mentioned another nearby house had their lights on too.

[quote]And Ester Newberg became a big literary agent.

Yeah, and Princess Caroline Kennedy is one of her clients.

The 50th anniversary of Chappaquiddick is in July. There will probably be some renewed interest and I know back in December, Fox News aired a docuseries on Chappaquiddick. I was surprised that they didn't until the anniversary time to air the docuseries.

The People magazine podcast Cover-Up was pretty good and worth listening to.

The cottage where the weekend party took place is a popular rental 50 years later. The original wooden Dyke Bridge was demolished and replaced by a more modern bridge with barriers on each side, something the original bridge lacked.

[quote]If Ted were a Republican, he would have gotten away with it and people would have mentioned the "unfortunate accident" in hushed tones.

That's rich. He did get away with it and people did mention the "unfortunate accident" in hushed tones. He even ran for President in 1980 which shows how well he knew he got away with it.

[quote] Muriel Humphrey was born in 1912 - she was 20 years older. Look at photos of Muriel and Maryjo, and tell me who Ted was going to drive away with that night ....

Mary Jo was not skilled and sxperienced in all the ways of the Kama Sutra, like some of us were.

A woman who has known the ways of pleasure at the hands--and the tongues--of many a man and many a woman has much to teach a lover twenty years younger.