Grey Gardens

Watch the Jessica Lange/Drew Barrymore HBO movie. It’s pretty good and a decent start for background.

It’s on HBOgo

At the time, $300 a month, though not lavish, was more than the average income. It was, for example, considerably more than the base salary of public school teachers.

Watching the documentary made me feel dirty, like staring at a wreck on the interstate.

OP - there's a sequel documentary that isn't as well known, as well as lots of extras on the dvd. In fact, you can probably watch them all on YouTube. There were a lot of details about their lives that the Maisle Brothers left out either for legal reasons or artistic. But a lot of your questions will be answered.

The father and son's we're assholes for how they just abandoned the edies the way they did. It's awful what people let their class and wealth do to them. And how they allow it to let them treat other people. It's sad and pathetic.

These we're not good people.

[quote] son's we're

[quote] we're

Big Edie seemed both loopy and narcissistic, I imagine her sons had spent a long time trying to get her to do something sensible, ANYTHING sensible, and had finally given up and let her live with the consequences of her actions. How old were they when "Grey Gardens" was made, in their sixties?

As for little Edie, by the standards of her class and time she was not someone they'd value; she was a woman with no money of her own and no career, who'd failed to land the right sort of husband, which made her a total failure by the standards of a lower-upper-class family like the Bouviers. And the place of a failed daughter was at home, acting as an unpaid servant to her parents or other family members.

At the time, in their circles, both of the Edies were dropouts and refused to fit the mold that society made for them. Thusly, they were rejected, ignored and nullified. If they didn't marry and stay married, and become dutiful, quiet, pretty little wives, they weren't worth the money spent on their upbringing and education. They were rejected, and for me that is the biggest theme in the film. Much like in the lives of the Edwardian English (see Downton Abbey), women were expected to act a certain way, get married, have children, bring them up properly, and live quiet, isolated but pretty lives in gilded cages. Both Edies refused that, and their lives in Grey Gardens are the result of that rebellion against society.

Sandy Passage -- Bill Hader and Fred Armisen's take on Grey Gardens -- was hysterical.

I guess I just cannot imagine abandoning my mother and my sister to live in such filth and poverty, especially when the sons were only a few miles away in NYC. The house was infested with fleas and wild animals, there was feces (some of it seemingly human) in some of the rooms, often they had no running water, the close-ups of Edie's mattress alone were enough to make my skin crawl. How could you treat your own mother like that?

They didn’t treat their mother like anything.

It’s like hoarders or people with eating disorders. Even if you are family, you can’t do anything to people who won’t be helped.

Odd that you would defend the indefensible. How do you know Edie couldn't be helped? After the movie came out, Jackie and Ari stepped in and spent about 35K cleaning the place up, and the sons finally showed up and paid the back taxes. They obviously only did it because they'd been deeply embarrassed by the film. Shameful.

R12. How very adult of Big Edie to have to have a random niece, that happened to be famous, shell out thousands just to keep the place. JUST to trash it right back out...

Edie was indefensible.

Just society people that fell off.

Feel free to correct me but I remember reading somewhere that if they had just agreed to sell the house and move into a more modest situation they would have been fine. Big Edie refused to budge and wanted to stay where she spent her glory days, so there was a willfulness behind the squalor they lived in. And don't overestimate how much money the family had - most of the Bouvier money was lost or squandered and Jackie and her mother both did indeed marry for money (at last in part). As you know, Little Edie could easily have made a fortuitous marriage for herself but refused. They chose their lot in life. And because they were raised with silver spoons in their mouths they didn't cook or do housework like more resourceful middle-class or working-class people might have. They were wonderfully useless people.

I cannot blame her for not wanting to lose the house. It was the only thing--the ONLY thing--she got from her first marriage.

Didn't Little Edie sell the house after Big Edie died?

Yes she did, R16, and with that and the allowance she eventually got from Jackie, she first went to live in NYC and then settled in Florida. She spent her last years living in a nice condo at the seaside, with no filth or hoarding.

The decision to stay in the decaying mansion was entirely Big Edie's, Little Edie felt trapped there. She wasn't actually trapped, I suppose she could have gotten a job and moved out or even paid the electricity and water bills, because she couldn't have earned much - being a total flake with no real skills. She never worked in her life except for a bit of modelling. If she was trapped at Gray Gardens, it was because nobody but her mother would give her free room and board.

Obviously both Edies had mental health problems.

Speaking from experience, trying to deal with family members with psychological issues (and more) who enter into their own mutually dependent collaborations is nearly impossible. It requires having people declared legally incompetent, which is not easy given the need for medical, social-services and legal cooperation, especially with people whose conditions are sub-clinical but serious, or whose complex issues can be hidden in certain circumstances.

Just say "Why didn't the sons do something?" shows ignorance. One wonders what these reflexive shamers are doing or will do about the problems in their families when they occur.

Was Big Edie an alcoholic? It's never discussed--the narrative is that they were just eccentric ladies, but Big Edie seems pretty soused in some scenes. It would explain a lot.

In the DVD extras, there is a telephone interview with Little Edie, recorded years after the documentary was filmed. She moved to Florida after her mother died and she lived long enough to experience some level of fame from Grey Gardens.

Buckley was awesome in the musical.

"Just say "Why didn't the sons do something?" shows ignorance."

I didn't mean have them committed. I meant at least give them enough money to have the house cleaned, buy groceries and have a gardener to keep the place from becoming a jungle. For two men who worked in the financial/law sector in NYC, that would be the amount they'd spend on a business dinner.

"One wonders what these reflexive shamers are doing or will do about the problems in their families when they occur."

One thing that would certainly NOT happen is that I'd abandon my mother and sister to live in poverty, filth, and shame.

Why didn't they go on assistance?

The family should have stepped in long before 1975. As it was, once the place was cleaned and the taxes paid, Edie only lived another two years. After that, Little Edie sold the place and moved to Florida. What a sad, sad tale.

Btw, I love how Little Edie refers to one of the guys who hangs around as The Marble Faun.

R14 is correct. The family did not have a lot of money left. And Big Ediestubbornly refused to sell as they kept advising her to do which would have given her enough money to live on.

Her sons wanted her to sell and move. Little Edie was open to moving. In the documentary, she mentions how much she loved the city, and how she wasn't afraid in the city. As Big Edie's eyesight and health failed she needed to have someone there. Big Edie refused to sell, and her sons obviously refused to enable her stubbornness and poor decision making. She had a huge 80 yr old home that was falling apart all around her. She had virtually no income. And she came from an extremely wealthy family. Her mother's family was very wealthy. But, post divorce, due to her refusal to conform to high societies social norms, her father or grandfather cut her off. Whatever money or trust that she did have was mismanaged. The family was of course eventually shamed into helping and ultimately enabling a few more years of foolishness.

Big Edie sold the home, which was in a state of disrepair, for 220,000.00. Again the house was 80 yrs old. Jackie cleaned it up and made it habitable. However, it was still in need of major work. The Beales just could not afford to maintain a home of that size and a home that old. The Bradleys spent an additional 600,000.00 renovating and restoring. Sally Quinn sold the home last yr for 15.5 million.

[quote] Built in 1897, the 6,000-square-foot home has seven bedrooms and sits on nearly two full acres of land. Features include a swimming pool, a tennis court, and exterior gardens throughout the landscaping

In the documentary Little Edie also mentioned that Big Edie had sold off a portion of the beach from land that they once owned.

[quote] However, it was still in need of major work.

Tell me about it! “All it needs is a coat of paint” my ass!

The problem was Big Edie & her ridiculous devotion to her equally ridiculous musical "career" Big Edie spent far more money on her so-called career than she ever earned, both of them sounded like two alley cats screwing in a brush fire. The Edies lived in a dangerous bubble, waiting for talent scouts & potential husbands who never arrived. As pointed out earlier in this thread, Little Edie lived a fairly normal life after her mother's death & the sale of Grey Gardens.

"You always must do everything correctly". quote from Big Edie, whilst surrounded by garbage & cat turds.

That clip is both hysterical and depressing. I love those two broads but my God, what a sad end for Big Edie.

I just watched a clip of Lee Radziwill being interviewed by Sofia Coppola. Radziwill talks about her "very eccentric aunt" Big Edie. Coppola asks her if Little Edie had always been eccentric as well, and Lee swiftly responds "Oh no. She graduated from Harvard. She only became eccentric after Big Edie took her hostage and wouldn't let her leave Grey Gardens for 25 years."

Here's an interesting article from Feb. Little Edie's nephew and his wife are suing the owner of painting of Jackie O. The painting was commissioned by Jackie's father Black Jack Bouvier. Because he had mishandled her trust fund; he bequeathed his prize possession painting of Jackie to his sister Big Edie. The nephew and his wife discovered that bit of information in the piles of letters and documents left behind by Little Edie. Eva Beale (the nephew's wife) first discovered the painting at an art gallery in 2004. The owner explained that he purchased the painting from a delaer in the 1980's, but he refused to identify the dealer. Then in 2016 they discovered a 1998 article (among Edie's documents) that showed the painting and talked about its disappearance. Which confirmed Eva's 2004 suspicions.

Edie suffered a home invasion while she was out at a party--it was around 1968 I think--in which her most valuable possessions were all stolen. It was after that robbery that she never again left the house.

Sorry to bump. I’m watching “That Summer.” Lee Radziwill seems very nice and her voice is hypnotic. It really is just like an episode of Hoarders, with Lee as the psychologist and organizer. I did not know that Ari Onassis was the one who made the cleanup happen. It is strange to hear Lee sounding so elderly in the contemporary narration.. Anyone else see this?

Princess Lee is mistaken. Little Edie never went to any college.

Big Edie seemed senile and Little Edie seemed schizophrenic. Also there is no way that they could have completely removed the smell of cat piss and decomposing animal carcasses from the house after they restored it.

[quote] Edie suffered a home invasion while she was out at a party--it was around 1968 I think--in which her most valuable possessions were all stolen. It was after that robbery that she never again left the house.

They went to a party and they were robbed. The robbers probably just took what they could find and carry, not necessarily “their most valuable possessions.” It sounds like you’re embellishing the story. When the Bradly’s purchased the home. They found antiques stored in the attic. Therefore I doubt that the robbers got everything valuable. How would they know what to take and how would they carry it all out. And actually the beach front property was their most valuable possession. Edie Jr sold it for much less than it was worth.

that Marble Faun was a hottie. Love that he plays for our team.

Oh, I see someone else has mentioned “Hoarders”.

I find this discussion to be similar to the one about the Sedaris family and the daughter Tiffany who committed suicide. Some people think the family treated her terribly, some people think she alienated herself.

I think if you’ve ever tried to get a mentally ill family member help and they refuse, you might have a certain perspective. I know from experience that hoarders are extremely difficult to change and they always revert to it.

Another way to look at it is that those women were living their lives on their own terms. They weren’t happy in the constricted and conscripted society life.

I read somewhere that one of the sons, I think he lived in Arizona, had bought a condo for the two near his hone. He wanted them o. u. t. of GG but then Jackie Onassis got Ari to pay for sone basic repairs allowing them to stay. The son pitched a fit at Jackie for doing this.

R39 Oh, no kidding. How frustrating for the brother.

To add to what r36 said, Little Edie did leave the house. She went into town. In the follow-up movie, she goes to town with her friend to watch a movie or something. The Edie’s were reclusive, but they weren’t absolute hermits.

[quote]Again the house was 80 yrs old. Jackie cleaned it up and made it habitable.

[italic]Grey Gardens[/italic] was made several years after Jackie and company had gotten the house cleaned up and patched up. By the time the Maysles brothers got there, it was a shambles again.

R33, I saw [italic]That Summer[/italic] a couple of months ago. Lee was really loving and respectful of the Edies in it, and I liked how her kids seemed to enjoy it there—I think my little gay ass would have found them a blast. Also, Peter Beard was a snack.

Little Edie died sad and alone, which made the whole thing end even more tragically.

Oh, I don't know, R43, she lived in a nice place in Florida, she got to go swimming every day, and she had friends and fans who cared about her and checked in on her (her body was found after one of them asked police to do a welfare check). Before she died, she even knew she was a thing on the internet.

Regarding the cat urine and fecal matter. I am a former RE Appraiser and in one of my classes the "subject property" had a horrendous piss smell. It was a corporate owned property, a large home in a top area,. The only way to "correct the problem: is to rip up the carpeting and then all the hardwood floors - then do an assessment to determine whether subflooring should be removed. And basically rebuild the entire room. So - everyone who thinks kitties are cute must decide how much they want to pay for it. I will never forget the class and the eye watering visit to the house.

No sympathy. They could have sold the houses and lived well. Or, God forbid, get jobs. The idea that “they didn’t know how to work because of their backgrounds” is absurd. Kids don’t know how to work but they learn because they have to. They were spoiled rich girls who weren’t that bothered by the mess - just like those Hoarders shows. The choose to love like that.

"And, Edie's father was a fucking asshole to leave her a trust so small--so tiny--that it only gave her $300/month. I was deeply disturbed by this on a human aspect. Any insights?"

What we now call "economic abuse" was considered right and just in the Beales' day, OP.

It was considered OK to use economic means to keep your estranged wife or ex-wife from sullying the family name, and it was considered unusually generous to give your useless unmarried slut daughter enough money to live on, and yes, $300 a month was considered enough to live on modestly when the will was drawn up. Usually useless slutty unmarried daughters were left nothing, were told to either live with family members as a poor relation or leave the upper crust entirely, to earn a living by whatever means were possible.

The Edies reminded me of The Glass Menagerie. IMO, they would not have moved into a new, clean 2- or 3-bedroom condo. Even if Jackie had not fixed up Grey Gardens, the Edies would have continued to live there in squalor.

I don't blame any of the family members for not helping them. They were hoarders with delusions of grandeur. Eating ice cream as if that erases all that surrounds them.

I did feel sorry for Little Edie, though.

Meant to also say: I don't think they would have accepted help from anybody if it involved moving out of GG, treatment for hoarding, etc.

You can't help someone if they won't accept the help.

I’m guessing Big Edie had BPD.

She also had OPD.

, I imagine her sons had spent a long time trying to get her to do something sensible, ANYTHING sensible, and had finally given up and let her live with the consequences of her actions.

/ yeah some relatives are just impossible. You just give up for your own sanity.

Hoarders? How so? They were filthy. It always looked like they didn't take out the trash. They weren't going around dragging useless crap into the house. They weren't buying things either.

R53 I'm no expert on hoarding to say the least, but from watching the TV show, the subjects seem to fall in two categories (or a mix): compulsive shoppers, and people who have years of cat shit collected in bags, as the Edies did.

Yes the ladder. The kitchen looked like it had 2 feet of empty cans on stacked in every corner.

They weren't hoarders, they were slobs! They just didn't take out the trash for months or years, they weren't brought up for that sort of thing, and it's not clear that the city would take their trash to the dump or anything. Had the utility bills been paid?

Big Edie may well have had BPD or NPD, and yes, apparently her sons did spend years begging her to accept reality or do anything sensible, and had indeed given up and let Mom live with the consequences of her actions. From a legal POV they probably let it get to the point of "elder neglect", because they were rich and their mother was living in filth. I don't know if they had any legal options, Edie would not have qualified for conservatorship (under the current definitions of incompetence) even at the point of the movie, when she had a year or so to live.

I don't think the DSM has a definition for what was up with Little Edie, she wasn't crazy or really mentally ill by any of the normal definitions, she was just... in her own world, and she just didn't get the real world. I mean her own world seems to be a fairly fun place, we're still charmed by her, but she must have been incredibly frustrating to deal with in real life. She's the sort of person you could tell "If you do [X] then [Z] will happen" ten billion times a role, and then Edie would do [X] and [Z] would happen, and she'd waft about wondering how the heck [Z] happened. No wonder her brothers kept her with Mom and didn't let her move in.

[quote] Hoarders? How so? They were filthy. It always looked like they didn't take out the trash.

There is such a thing as "trash hoarding," believe it or not.

Whether they were "hoarding" the trash or refusing to carry it out, something was deeply wrong with the Edies.

Add cats into the mix and that is fucking disgusting.

A staunch woman...

Didn't Edie live in a Bal Harbour condo? I should have such a sad and lonely end.

Yes, after Big Edie died Little Edie was still poor, so she put on a nightclub act in New York for the cash. Her cousin Jackie Kennedy Onassis was so embarrassed by this that she gave Little Edie a pension, enough to move to FLorida and live quietly. So Edie moved to a nice seaside condo in Florida and lived peacefully until the end of her days, continuing to dress oddly but never causing trouble or scandal.

Which does reinforce my view that Little Edie wasn't seriously mentally ill, she was just... different. She wasn't crazy, she just didn't solve problems the way the rest of us do.

Little Edie was a beautiful woman with a figure like Jackie, but bustier. She could have easily married well. However, IIRC, Big Edie seemed to sabotage all of her relationships because she didn't want Edie to leave her. If only Edie had not moved back to GG in her 30's, she may have had a chance.

I'm glad Little Edie had some time alone, away from her mother. Jackie being embarrassed of Little Edie's nightclub act made me chuckle. Well, at least Jackie put some money where her mouth was.

The Bouvier family money was long gone by the time the documentary was filmed, apparently Jackie's father pissed it all away with drinking, whoring and gambling. Big Edie's two sons both had to work for a living, there were no trust funds or anything like that.

This is the first I've heard of the sequel to 'GG'. So Princess Lee produced it herself? I recall reading years ago that she was bitter she didn't get the credit she felt she deserved for introducing the Edies to the Maisles. Poor Lee...always the bitter martyr. I

Body Beautiful, r61, that's what they used to call her. That was her...whaddya call it...her...

"If only Edie had not moved back to GG in her 30's, she may have had a chance."

Oh please. Little Edie was way too eccentric for these super-uptight, status and money-obsessed, superficial one percenters. What those men wanted was an appendage that would make them look good --a good, pretty, quiet little wife who would birth them children and be the perfect society hostess whenever the man needed them to be (while the man caroused and cheated on them left and right).

r31, the art dealer won that lawsuit and the Beales had to pay his costs, although everyone signed a non-disclosure. In court he proved that the Beale heirs had lied about what little Edie said to them (she's on the record for having hated her nephew), lied about her own interactions with the dealer (Eva Beale's a known climber c*nt), and showed that the painting had come from Jackie's riding instructor's estate - a family friend and East Hampton neighbor. Jackie didn't like the painting (it's a horrible likeness) and gave it to her. He had all the receipts.

I wish more women would wear skirts that could also be worn as capes.

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SKUHTS

R45 you’re describing animal hoarders or people who abuse/ neglect their cats. Well cared-for cats don’t routinely piss all over the house resulting in flooring needing to be replaced. I think it’s sad that people use similar things to what you just said as reasons to adopt cats or other pets.

You can't get rid of the stench of cat piss that's soaked into the floors and the walls. Everything has to be torn out.

""If only Edie had not moved back to GG in her 30's, she may have had a chance.""

R66 is correct, Edie didn't have any real chance of hooking a 1% husband. She was known to be damaged goods with her married lover, and she was just too flaky to either play the role expected of an old-money man's society wife, or a the supportive wife of a hard-working businessman.

So the Beales did what upper-crust families did and supported her in style in NYC for a few years, everyone knew that that kind of support came with an end date and conditions, everyone but Edie. She wanted the free life in NYC to last forever, but things just don't work that way. So all the Beales could do was to tell her the party was over and she could live with family rent-free and that was as good as it got, or she could support herself as a model or artist's model (or a wealthy man's mistress). She would have been far happier doing the latter, but again, she wasn't really realistic enough to earn a living and pay her bills. I don't know why, there's no known form of mental illness that describes being too flaky to live, but that was what was up with Little Edie.

And of course back in those days women couldn't go to law school or business school and have any kind of career that would make a decent amount of money.

Judge Judy & Ruth Bader Ginsburg went to law school. I'm not saying Little Edie would have been as successful as they JJ & RBG, but it was an option.

IMO, the family culture was for women to marry into wealth. Little Edie was not cut out for that. Could she have been a designer? Maybe.

Quinn put 15 million into renovating GG. Lord knows why. They ripped out and replaced floors. She said on rainy days you could smell the animal piss.

talk about shabby chic

[quote] Quinn put 15 million into renovating GG. Lord knows why. They ripped out and replaced floors. She said on rainy days you could smell the animal piss.

What a waste of money.

Actually, by the 1940s, a few women were getting serious educations and having real careers, but of course Little Edie was too dreamy, flaky, and spoiled to show up on time, do the work, and live within her means, she couldn't even put a modelling career together. I suppose if the family had given her enough money to live on she might have been happy pottering away as an artist or designer, but I can't see her dealing with the business side of whatever she did or meeting deadlines.

The thing is, I think that she became dreamy and out of touch with reality because she grew up spoiled and with a mother with a personality disorder, she withdrew into herself as a result and seems to have had a fine time there. Perhaps if she'd had someone who'd guided her into being serious about education and a career she might have learned to focus her energy and do the work necessary to live an independent life, but that didn't happen and life didn't her offer her any options she wanted to accept. She was just raised to be like her cousins Jackie and Lee and marry well and often, and she didn't want that.

R46 you remind me of that scene in Airplane. “They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash!”

[quote] She was just raised to be like her cousins Jackie and Lee and marry well and often, and she didn't want that.

IMO, given the chance, she would have married someone who could support her, financially. Some women (& men) can look normal on the outside but get crazy behind closed doors. Little Edie could not hide her quirkiness, flakiness, delusional personality. I don't think many men would have wanted to marry her, frankly. I am not trying to be mean here.

If you've ever wondered why Jackie married two men she didn't really love, all you have to do is look at Little Edie. Jackie must've thought "there but for the grace of God go I." She could've ended up a spinster living with HER narcissistic nightmare of a mother just like her cousin did.

Little Edie was too eccentric and weird to land a husband in the circles she traveled in. As others have said, there were very strict rules on what was "suitable" back then and LE didn't fit into that.

[quote] Coppola asks her if Little Edie had always been eccentric as well, and Lee swiftly responds "Oh no. She graduated from Harvard.

Not only did Little Edie not go to college, Harvard did not allow women when Little Edie was of college age.

Here's the Lee Radziwill / Sofia Coppola interview. Lee R. would not answer any questions about Onassis. Give SC credit for asking, though.

Have any DLers ever gone out at any time to see Grey Gardens? I know you wouldn't have ever been able to go close up to it but perhaps drive by, walk by, see it from the road?

Have any DLers seen Little Edie in person, perhaps in her nightclub act or in Florida?

Would Little Edie have accepted caftans as an alternative outfit or were they too 'normal' even for her?

I love the Barrymore/Lange film, think Barrymore should have won the Emmy and it is the best work she has ever done.

[quote] Would Little Edie have accepted caftans as an alternative outfit or were they too 'normal' even for her?

Why would she need alternatives when she was so fabulously dressed as it was?

Whatever else you think about the Edies, you cannot deny that little Edie looked fabulous.

Jackie's mother lived in great luxury after she married Auchincloss. She was a cunt but her mansions were immaculate.

I've been inside the house during the Bradlee-Quinn era and they most certainly did not spend $15 million rehabbing it! They spent about $250,000 on top of the $225,000 they paid. The couldn't afford much more than that, and as it was kept it rented 11 months out of the year (at a profit).

The house was very nice, and full of Beale cast-offs, but it was decorated a bit twee for me.

Since Sally sold it was gutted again, lifted up and given a new foundation with high tech family room, all new plumbing and electrical systems, and a McMansioned front gate and palatial landscaping. Talk about not understanding what you were buying...

Yeah I screwed up my numbers. She soldi it for 15 million. My bad.

R85 Lee looked splendid there. But her voice had gotten so elderly-sounding. Does that HAVE to happen to all of us?

r91 - only if you hotbox 3 packs of Pall Malls a day...

Oh and I no longer see the New York Times, they call the magazine "T" now? Lol

Yeah, Lee was a heavy smoker right to the end. That's why her voice sounded like that.

Every time I hear Sofia Coppola speak, I hate her a bit:m. Her questions are so generic.

But also the way our speech slows down when we age. Bleh, not looking forward to that.

Lucille Ball's voice also turned very deep and gravelly from the years of smoking.

R33 I quite enjoyed that documentary. Downright saw Lee in a different light what for her patience and gentleness. She was bone thin throughout the whole documentary, though!

I meant to add to the "Nicest Celebrity" thread how pleasant Sofia was when I met her. Completely unaffected. Her husband was very nice and friendly, too.

And I agree, R98, I thought Lee was wonderful.

Little Edie is my role model.

R66 I meant find in a nice, average man who was an artist or similar to her when she was in her 30's, not a 1 percenter at that point in her life.

Little Edie had moments of wisdom and insight. Like when she remarks that digging up the past is cruel, because there's always some "blot" or "something to embarrass somebody." It's so true.

I am a lot like Little Edie (half nuts). I think she has paved the way for many of us who are slightly touched.

Insane in the membrane (Insane in the brain)

[quote] [R66] I meant find in a nice, average man who was an artist or similar to her when she was in her 30's, not a 1 percenter at that point in her life.

"Average man" artist, maybe an in-house graphic artist? Little Edie would have been too much drama and would not have contributed financially to the household.

Were the Edies given any money for the documentary?

The town of East Hampton has a dump and does not have a municipal removal service. You can contract a removal service, but regular people just haul it themselves. I don’t think the Edies had a car to do that, though.

They did have the handyman/gardener; I think I remember Big Edie writing him a check in the documentary.

I sure she would have graciously accepted a caftan from you, r86. I doubt you would have recognized it as such when she was done with it however.

[quote] They did have the handyman/gardener; I think I remember Big Edie writing him a check in the documentary.

She should have been writing checks to a man who would haul away their trash.

I just wrapped up dealing with a mother very much like the Edies. It’s heart wrenching how far down it gets.

You cannot legally demand they do anything. Also, people “put on airs”- pretending they have money when they don’t, get scammed over and over, and won’t ever take responsibility for themselves. They blame others when things go wrong. Being stubborn drives people away. Pride keeps people like this from revealing how bad it really is. Being indifferent to others that offer snuffs out those truly willing to help that particular moment. Urgency doesn’t last forever, eventually they give up. When you add mental illness, dementia and isolation it is like adding gasoline to the fire.

I could’ve spent more time dealing with all my mom’s issues but then I was missing out on my own life, important milestones in my relationships and yes, not being readily available when she really needed me because I was living and enjoying my own life.

I was in Paris when my elderly mom’s $40 in quarters I mailed her was stolen. I spent more than $200 and the entire evening trying to get quarters thousands of miles away for the homecare to do her laundry that day. They won’t do this kind of errand. It ruined my husband’s plans that day and no matter how well I planned, until my mom got into a nursing home, I didn’t realize how much the worry had consumed me.

R109, did your mother die? Is that why you "wrapped up" dealing with her? Or did you just give up? No judgment, either way.

R86 Grey Gardens doesn’t have a particularly private setting compared to many other really great Hamptons houses. It’s on a corner lot and isn’t set all that far from the street. The hedges aren’t crazy high and so driving or walking by you can get a pretty decent glimpse of the front and one side of the place, especially in fall or winter. However, the back garden and pool are very private... you definitely can’t see those without really being on the property.

It’s a beautiful house and, of course, very intriguing because of the whole Beale/ Bouvier legacy. But it’s not as grand or on same the type of acreage as the estates further east along Lily Pond Lane or a few streets away on Lee Avenue.

Here is what it looked like in 2016 when Liz Lange rented it for the summer.

Big Edie's two sons tried for many years to get her to sell Grey Gardens and move into an apartment but she wouldn't budge. There was nothing they could legally do to remove their mother from the house and get her into another living situation. They couldn't pay for the repairs and renovations Grey Gardens needed or all the other expenses because it would've cost a fortune.

It's such a frustrating situation to be in, but at some point you have to throw up your hands because you have your own life to live and your own family to take care of and you just can't get through to the person you're trying to help. It's an insane situation to be in but in the end everybody has their own things they need to take care of and they just can't be the caretaker of someone else who refuses any kind of help.

Big Eadie's sons could have had their mother committed to a mental institute. It was a lot easier back then. Send a social worker out to assess the squalor that they were living in and that would definitely have started the ball rolling to remove her from the house.

Say what you will about Little Eadie ( I loathed Big Edie from the git go) but she was a real character . How many people these days can you say that about ?

Anybody with a sobriquet is bound to be a character.

I loved Grey Gardens and both Edies. It's time to watch it again. I have respect for people who are eccentric.

I wonder if any DL analysts know what their issues were? I'm guessing narcissism for Big Edie, but I can't find good info on Little Edie? She doesn't seem to fit anything I know of. Thanks.

intersectional misogyny compounded by hollowed out affluenza

If Little Edie's family hadn't cut off her allowance in 1952, she'd never have moved back in with Big Edie. Lonely Big Edie might have been easier to persuade about selling if she hadn't had Little Edie's companionship. The Grey Gardens embarrassment would never have happened. In the end, they had to spend money fixing up the house AND later on gave Little Edie a pension anyway. The family's inability to offer Little Edie something other than the usual options led to the whole fiasco.

True r118. Little Edie wanted to stay in the city. They could've worked something out for her so that could've happened. And god knows NYC wasn't enormously expensive back then like it is now.

R110, no my mom didn’t die, she had a giant tumor removed from her abdomen and was recuperating in rehab in January when corona hit. It turned out to be the best thing that ever happened because they were unable to provide dependable homecare so she wound up in a nursing home. I wasn’t able to catch every little problem and my brother only wanted to deal with her in emergencies. She’s getting better care now and more importantly isn’t isolated. This argument with her went back and forth for a very long time but I’m glad, she turned 80 last month and she gave in rather than me force the issue.

My mom only had minimal homecare and no friends and spent way too much time alone with her thoughts. That’d warp even the sharpest mind.

If Little Edie had been born later, she would have been IDEAL for the Andy Warhol Factory in the 1960s. Just perfect for that crowd and for Warhol to deify and exploit.

You're so right, R121.

[quote] Hoarders? How so? They were filthy. It always looked like they didn't take out the trash. They weren't going around dragging useless crap into the house. They weren't buying things either.

They had no choice but to let the trash pile up. The town wouldn’t pick it up.

They also didn’t have running water, prior to the clean up. The house was built in the 1800s. They had a very large, very old home and they couldn’t maintain it. It was really uninhabitable. The Edies were destitute and therefore an embarrassment to their community. The community wanted them gone. Therefore just like their family, they didn’t make it easier for them to stay there. The publicity shamed Jackie into bailing them out. She did kind of the bare minimum. Which really wasn’t enough for a house that old. And the Edies of course still couldn’t afford to keep up with the maintenance of a home that size and that old.

[quote] If Little Edie's family hadn't cut off her allowance in 1952, she'd never have moved back in with Big Edie. Lonely Big Edie might have been easier to persuade about selling if she hadn't had Little Edie's companionship. The Grey Gardens embarrassment would never have happened. In the end, they had to spend money fixing up the house AND later on gave Little Edie a pension anyway. The family's inability to offer Little Edie something other than the usual options led to the whole fiasco.

If I remember correctly Big Edie’s health, including her failing vision and the exit of her “accompanist” necessitated Edie Jr’s return. Edie Jr had also caused scandal with her affair with a married man.

This thread is endlessly fascinating. Thank you!

I used to be repulsed by the Edies, but now I lean towards Big Edie being the real NPD and Little Edie just being a victim of her circumstances.

Who was the married man Lil Eddie had an affair with?

[quote]The Bradleys spent an additional 600,000.00 renovating and restoring. Sally Quinn sold the home last yr for 15.5 million.

Fuck Sally Quinn. She took total advantage of the Edies. Where was she while they lived in squalor.

Cunt.

[quote] Oh please. Little Edie was way too eccentric for these super-uptight, status and money-obsessed, superficial one percenters. What those men wanted was an appendage that would make them look good --a good, pretty, quiet little wife who would birth them children and be the perfect society hostess whenever the man needed them to be (while the man caroused and cheated on them left and right).

Edie Jr was beautiful and came from a very prominent family. As a young woman man, she could have married anyone. She wanted to marry for love, not money nor social status. Of course initially her family had plenty of money and she had plenty of suitors. She talks about how she had no real interest in the boys in her prominent social circle. She remarks: Who wants to marry a boy you played tennis with at the Maystone Tennis Club. She wanted something different.

No one damn stopped Little Eddie for marrying for love. She made no effort and expected everything to drop onto her lap. You gotta hustle, sweetie.

There is the mystery of why Little Edie didn't take the trash and pile it in the garden. Or convince the marble fauns in their orbit to bring it to the dump. Little Edie was fit and healthy as far a I know. Perhaps Big Edie forbid her to take out the trash - "keeping up appearances" or something. But the garden is walled.

I once lived in a decaying old house but we didn't live like savages.

[quote] There is the mystery of why Little Edie didn't take the trash and pile it in the garden.

Remember the neighbors were complaining.

R131 yes I guess that's it.

I wish the Broadway album had some good songs to listen to while reading this thread, but I don’t recall anything even vaguely hummable. Was there possible a song called “Take Me Back to Amagansett?”

"Edie Jr was beautiful and came from a very prominent family. As a young woman man, she could have married anyone."

Well, no. On the surface she seemed to be a catch, she was beautiful and from a prominent and well-to-do family, but if you looked beneath the beautiful surface, Edie did not have what the men in her circle were looking for. For starters she didn't have a huge dowry or money of her own, but more importantly, she didn't *share values* with the men she was expected to marry. They were looking for a wife who'd fit into their family and support their interests and use her brains or connections to support his career, she was an eccentric bohemian who wasn't interested in any of that... and she was surrounded by a ton of debs who were.

I mean, would a wealthy and ambitious man like JFK marry an Edie, when there were tons of ambitious debs like Cousin Jackie available and willing to do anything to please a husband with money? Hell no, no ambitious man would have gone near Edie! Perhaps if there had been someone out there who also wanted to rebel against expectations and be an artist, it might have worked if he'd had a trust fund, but she didn't find a man like that... just an older married man.

Edie was too weird and "off" for the men in her circle. None of them wanted to marry her.

They had been threadbare grandees for decades and in fact bottom of the barrel gilded age. Jackie only hit the big time money when mama married Auchincloss and that was in the middle of the FDR's massive tax hikes on the wealthy.

Edie didn't have much to offer. Still, she could have gone to Greenwich Village and been a genteel bohemian.

If reality television was a thing during that time. Little Edie would've definitely had a recurring show year after year. She would've collected a generous enough salary to move to NYC and start her own cabaret act in clubs touring across the country and possibly the world.

She ultimately wanted to be a famous entertainer is what I gather.

And yes, she definitely would've been apart of the Andy Warhol circle too. That probably would've been perfect for little Edie.

Yes, Edie would have been happy as a New York Bohemian, but she was too flaky to support herself and her family had no reason to fund a bohemian lifestyle for her. They actually had reasons not to, because her parents and to a lesser extent her brothers would have suffered social disapproval if she'd continue to take inappropriate lovers, or if she'd gotten pregnant and had a baby out of wedlock (you know she would have, eventually!).

The sad truth is that the money was her father's, and it was his money and he had every right to decide what to do with it. If he declined to spend it on giving his daughter a lifestyle he disapproved of himself, that was his right.

This song is the reason the word wistful was invented....

[quote] Edie was too weird and "off" for the men in her circle. None of them wanted to marry her.

[quote] Well, no. On the surface she seemed to be a catch, she was beautiful and from a prominent and well-to-do family, but if you looked beneath the beautiful surface, Edie did not have what the men in her circle were looking for. For starters she didn't have a huge dowry or money of her own, but more importantly, she didn't *share values* with the men she was expected to marry. They were looking for a wife who'd fit into their family and support their interests and use her brains or connections to support his career, she was an eccentric bohemian who wasn't interested in any of that... and she was surrounded by a ton of debs who were. I mean, would a wealthy and ambitious man like JFK marry an Edie, when there were tons of ambitious debs like Cousin Jackie available and willing to do anything to please a husband with money? Hell no, no ambitious man would have gone near Edie! Perhaps if there had been someone out there who also wanted to rebel against expectations and be an artist, it might have worked if he'd had a trust fund, but she didn't find a man like that... just an older married man.

Your opinions seem to be based upon who Edie was as a 40 yr old recluse. She didn't start life off as a 40 yr old eccentric recluse. She was a debutant and she was model. Her worked as an attorney but her mother came from an extraordinarily wealthy family. As a young woman, she had a normal life, a very privileged life. She had friends and boyfriends. Her parents divorced. The Great Depression happened. WW2 happened. Her grandfather cut her mother off and whatever money she did get was mismanaged by her brother. Spending yrs in isolation and in destitute poverty would make anyone seem "weird." The notion that any young woman (who looked like Edie) could not get a rich husband is ridiculous. First and foremost men want a hot piece of ass and she was that. Half the time, they're not going to even listen enough to care what she's saying.

[quote] A tall, blue-eyed blonde with a superb figure, John Davis, Bouvier family historian, said Edie was one of the reigning beauties of East Hampton society, “surpassing even the dark charm of [her cousin] Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy.” She was known around town as “Body Beautiful Beale” and had a steady following of beaus. To the dismay of her father, she dabbled in professional modeling. One of her photos was displayed in the studio window of famed photographer Louis Bachrach; Phelan Beale reportedly smashed the window in anger. Another photo hung unauthorized in the Macy’s elevator in Manhattan.

[quote] Though never married, it is believed that she had proposals from Joe Kennedy, Jr. and J. Paul Getty. She even dated jetsetters like Howard Hughes. Her one true love was Julius Krug, former Secretary of Interior. Her mother apparently scared off every suitor Edie ever had for fear that she would one day be left alone with no one to care for her.

Can you imagine if she’d married Getty?

Edith Ewing Bouvier Beale (“Big Edie”) was born in 1895 into a wealthy family and grew up in New Jersey and Manhattan. Her father (Major John Vernou Bouvier Jr.) was a successful attorney, and her mother (Maude Sergeant) was the English-born daughter of a wealthy paper manufacturer.

Edith was one of five children and the younger sister of John Vernou “Black Jack” Bouvier III (father of Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis and Lee Bouvier Radziwill). She was trained as an opera singer and also enjoyed photography and various theatrical pursuits.

In January 1917, she married her father’s law partner, Phelan Beale. She was 21 and he was 35. It was a lavish wedding held at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York City, with 2500 people in attendance at the ceremony and 500 at the reception.

In 1923, Edith persuaded her husband to purchase Grey Gardens, a beautiful 28-room mansion overlooking the ocean in East Hampton, NY (a wealthy vacation town on Long Island). At first, the family continued to live most of the time in their home in New York City, but eventually Big Edie and the children began spending increasing amounts of time at Grey Gardens.

Although Phelan Beale did not lose all of his money in the Depression, financial issues were difficult after that. The couple began living separately in the 1930’s, with Big Edie and the children remaining at Grey Gardens.

In 1946, Phelan Beale notified Big Edie by telegram from Mexico that he had obtained a divorce from her, and shortly after that he remarried. (Little Edie referred to this as a “fake Mexican divorce,” pointing out that that it was not recognized by the Catholic Church.)

Little Edie graduated from Miss Porter’s School in 1935. Her debut, which was covered by The New York Times, was held at the Pierre Hotel in New York City.

She then spent the next 17 years dating wealthy men (reportedly Joseph Kennedy Jr., J. Paul Getty and Howard Hughes were among them) and modeling, with the hope of achieving a career as an actress and dancer. For a number of years she lived at the Barbizon Hotel in New York City.

As Little Edie became older, her father stated that he did not have the money to continue to support her and – since she did not seem inclined to get married – encouraged her to pursue a business career. Little Edie tried working in offices a few times, but things did not work out.

(In one interview, Little Edie stated that earlier in her life, both her father and Joseph Kennedy Jr. had urged her to become a lawyer but that she had decided she didn’t want to do that.)

In 1952 (the year that Little Edie turned 35), she moved back to Grey Gardens to live with her mother.

Phelan Beale died in 1956. He did not leave any substantial amount of money to his daughter or former wife, and the trust fund of $65,000 that Big Edie had inherited from her father was gradually depleted as a result of taking care of expenses for the house.

Both of Big Edie’s sons attempted repeatedly to persuade her to sell the house and to move somewhere more affordable, but she refused.

Little Edie continued to live with her mother, moving into her 40’s and then her 50’s and losing her hair along the way. Although she attended the Washington D.C. inauguration of President John F. Kennedy (her cousin Jacqueline’s husband) in 1961, over the years she and her mother became increasingly isolated.

By late 1971, Big Edie and Little Edie had been living together in the house for nearly 20 years and the overgrown property had become an eyesore in the neighborhood.

As a result, a team of public servants from the Town of East Hampton broke into the house, stating that they had found dilapidated conditions, large accumulations of garbage and cat feces, no heating, almost no running water, and many cats and raccoons in residence.

The Beales were given an ultimatum of cleaning up the house or being evicted from it.

When contacted by the Board of Health, Bouvier Beale reportedly stated, “You’ve described it very well, but it’s nothing new – Mother is the original hippie.”

Phelan Beale Jr. was said to have commented later that there had been a trust fund but that “trying to keep up that white elephant Grey Gardens is what ruined it.”

Although both brothers had fairly successful careers, they were of the position that they could not possibly afford to keep the mansion in good repair and that the solution to the problem should be for their mother to sell the property and move elsewhere.

"Your opinions seem to be based upon who Edie was as a 40 yr old recluse."

No. I'm basing my opinions on the young Edie Beale, the one who did a bit of modelling but was never serious enough about her career to support herself in New York, the one who had no interest in marrying for ambition, who had no interest in the young men she was expected to marry, but who was definitely interested in a married man twice her age. The wierdness was lurking under the surface and expressing itself as mild eccentricity and bent for unusual fashion, and maybe it might have ended up buried if she'd married someone who'd take over her life, but it ended up blossoming during her years as a recluse.

And you're the one who has no clue about the upper-crust marriage market! The first thing you need to know is that the few men out there with money and status know damn well they can be picky, and they know they can have all the physical beauty they want and they don't marry for looks alone (until they're old and on the 2nd or 3rd wife). No, they generally choose wives who will help them get whatever it is they are after, and they absolutely choose wives who will put them and their interests over her own.

Look at the marriage of JFK and Cousin Jackie, she married him for his money, and he married her because her bloodlines could improve his social standing, and because she'd make a top-flight political wife. A man like him wouldn't marry dreamy, unconventional, eccentric young Edie! And neither would his Harvard classmates, or any young man in her age group who was serious about a career.

Oh the eternal gay conflict of arguing over Big and Little Edie Beale, a topic that will forever divide the Gay community.

Alcoholism ran in the Bouvier family. Black Jack's younger brother died young of alcoholism. Black Jack was a young alcoholic and didn't survive the crash financially, he wasted away for decades. There was no real money anymore. Sister Edith Ewing Bouvier, I don't know if she drank too much and if so - when. Princess Lee was an alcoholic. She had no money of her own and had to marry it, just like sis Jackie.

Phelan Beale, Big Edie's husband, was handsome, but not super rich. He was born to a rich political family in Alabama, not a gilded age plutocrat. Phelan was social in New York, through the Bouviers, his business partner, but it wasn't a fabulous fortune - simply "rich".

This is a story of downward mobility over the decades.

[quote] No. I'm basing my opinions on the young Edie Beale, the one who did a bit of modelling but was never serious enough about her career to support herself in New York, the one who had no interest in marrying for ambition, who had no interest in the young men she was expected to marry, but who was definitely interested in a married man twice her age. The wierdness was lurking under the surface and expressing itself as mild eccentricity and bent for unusual fashion, and maybe it might have ended up buried if she'd married someone who'd take over her life, but it ended up blossoming during her years as a recluse. And you're the one who has no clue about the upper-crust marriage market! The first thing you need to know is that the few men out there with money and status know damn well they can be picky, and they know they can have all the physical beauty they want and they don't marry for looks alone (until they're old and on the 2nd or 3rd wife). No, they generally choose wives who will help them get whatever it is they are after, and they absolutely choose wives who will put them and their interests over her own. Look at the marriage of JFK and Cousin Jackie, she married him for his money, and he married her because her bloodlines could improve his social standing, and because she'd make a top-flight political wife. A man like him wouldn't marry dreamy, unconventional, eccentric young Edie! And neither would his Harvard classmates, or any young man in her age group who was serious about a career.

A tall, blue-eyed blonde with a superb figure, John Davis, Bouvier family historian, said Edie was one of the reigning beauties of East Hampton society, “surpassing even the dark charm of [her cousin] Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy.” She was known around town as “Body Beautiful Beale” and had a steady following of beaus. To the dismay of her father, she dabbled in professional modeling. One of her photos was displayed in the studio window of famed photographer Louis Bachrach; Phelan Beale reportedly smashed the window in anger. Another photo hung unauthorized in the Macy’s elevator in Manhattan.

Though never married, it is believed that she had proposals from Joe Kennedy, Jr. and J. Paul Getty. She even dated jetsetters like Howard Hughes. Her one true love was Julius Krug, former Secretary of Interior. Her mother apparently scared off every suitor Edie ever had for fear that she would one day be left alone with no one to care for her.

Howard HUGHES?!?

She was a woman of many sobriquets!

[quote]If reality television was a thing during that time. Little Edie would've definitely had a recurring show year after year. She would've collected a generous enough salary to move to NYC and start her own cabaret act in clubs touring across the country and possibly the world.

Jackie would've been absolutely mortified.

r140 Little Edie was always weird, even as a young woman.

[quote]First and foremost men want a hot piece of ass and she was that. Half the time, they're not going to even listen enough to care what she's saying.

Not in those circles, dear. This has already been explained. Men of that class needed a woman who conformed to the social rules and expectations of their class.

[quote] Little Edie was always weird, even as a young woman. Not in those circles, dear. This has already been explained. Men of that class needed a woman who conformed to the social rules and expectations of their class.

A tall, blue-eyed blonde with a superb figure, John Davis, Bouvier family historian, said Edie was one of the reigning beauties of East Hampton society, “surpassing even the dark charm of [her cousin] Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy.” She was known around town as “Body Beautiful Beale” and had a steady following of beaus. To the dismay of her father, she dabbled in professional modeling. One of her photos was displayed in the studio window of famed photographer Louis Bachrach; Phelan Beale reportedly smashed the window in anger. Another photo hung unauthorized in the Macy’s elevator in Manhattan.

Though never married, it is believed that she had proposals from Joe Kennedy, Jr. and J. Paul Getty. She even dated jetsetters like Howard Hughes. Her one true love was Julius Krug, former Secretary of Interior. Her mother apparently scared off every suitor Edie ever had for fear that she would one day be left alone with no one to care for her.

And, r153? That doesn't mean anything. She was beautiful, but unsuitable for marriage to men of her class.

Little Edie displayed mental problems very early on and everything that followed just pushed her over the edge. Big Edie was too stubborn to admit defeat and she'd rather live in squalor than live in a condo. Being "artists" and living in filth aren't the same thing; they both thought they were too good for housework. I'm just happy Little Edie got to live 25 years after her mom, she got to travel and enjoy life a little bit.

[quote] And, [R153]? That doesn't mean anything. She was beautiful, but unsuitable for marriage to men of her class.

It means that whatever your opinions may be. Edie Jr. has suitors who wanted to marry her. She could have had a rich husband from her social circle. And its ridiculous (and sexist) to call the woman "mentally ill" or "weird" because she wanted to do what she wanted to do, instead of what society dictated (women should do). Being young an rebellious is normal. In a lot of ways she and her mom were way ahead of their time.

I've heard before that Edie exaggerated the number and quality of proposals she received while a reigning deb, for instance she said that JFK proposed but that's unlikely. He had a bazillion "Body Beautiful" girlfriends, he only got married because he needed a wife to advance his career, and that wife had to be clever, ambitious, and possessed of superb social and publicity skills. He found the wife he needed, and Edie Beale Jr. wasn't her.

The time span of being a reigning deb was short, even shorter than a model's career, only a year or two before some other beautiful girl came along to be the toast of society. What Edie should have done was to get all the modelling gigs she could and support herself, instead of being dependent on her parents. If she'd earned her own living, she could have stayed as long as she lived and fucked who she wanted, maybe used her interesting fashion sense professionally. But she didn't, she wafted around enjoying life, but had to go home when her family stopped funding things, because she didn't do what she needed to do to be independent.

[quote]It means that whatever your opinions may be. Edie Jr. has suitors who wanted to marry her. She could have had a rich husband from her social circle. And its ridiculous (and sexist) to call the woman "mentally ill" or "weird" because she wanted to do what she wanted to do, instead of what society dictated (women should do). Being young an rebellious is normal. In a lot of ways she and her mom were way ahead of their time.

You have absolutely no comprehension of the world that these women lived in, and the rules and mores of the time. Little Edie attracted attention for her looks, but once these men really got to know her, they backed off. She was unsuitable for a man of her class to want to marry.

Was she a good time girl? Did she have loose morals? Did people whisper about her soiled innocence?

Little Edie's father was no longer rich when he left Big Edie. He told Big Edie to keep this a secret from Little Edie. I guess the brothers used their education and social connections to do OK for themselves. The family's brief moment in the golden high society circuit had come to a close.

By the way, people in that circle could figure out how much money each family had. Jackie's mom taught Jackie to turn down any attention from guys without big bucks. Family name was not enough.

[quote] You have absolutely no comprehension of the world that these women lived in, and the rules and mores of the time. Little Edie attracted attention for her looks, but once these men really got to know her, they backed off. She was unsuitable for a man of her class to want to marry.

There's simply no way for you to know that. That is your assumption.

[quote] I've heard before that Edie exaggerated the number and quality of proposals she received while a reigning deb, for instance she said that JFK proposed but that's unlikely. He had a bazillion "Body Beautiful" girlfriends, he only got married because he needed a wife to advance his career, and that wife had to be clever, ambitious, and possessed of superb social and publicity skills. He found the wife he needed, and Edie Beale Jr. wasn't her.

Edie said that she dated Joseph Kennedy Jr., not JFK.

And none of these people came from the REALLY big money. They were on the bottom rung of the top.

r162 you're stating things as fact that are not true, as anyone who is familiar with that class and those times could tell you.

The Joe Kennedy Jr. thing was never verified. It's not even known if Little Edie ever met him. Or J. Paul Getty or Howard Hughes.

None of these men were blue blood old money, btw.

The Bouviers were neither blue blood nor old money. Won and lost in less than 3 generations.

Almost ALL the colossal fortunes of the gilded age were "new money". The old money had status but the new money had the cash live in outrageous luxury. The Bouviers were not old money nor were they a colossal fortune.

Most family fortunes are gone by the third generation.

"There's simply no way for you to know that. That is your assumption."

Some of us have read enough history, biography, and Vanity Fair articles to know a bit about that level of society. Enough to know more than you, anyway!

And if Joe Kennedy Jr. had lived he'd have been very much like JFK turned out to be, politically ambitious and in need of a political wife who'd do the job the Kennedy family had planned for Mrs. Joseph Jr. Joe Sr. would have stopped him from marrying the likes of Edie, even if he forgot his ambitions and proposed.

Imagine if Edie had ended up First Lady and Jackie living in squalor with Janet.

R170 ??? Janet lived in many mansions with Auchincloss, who came from Standard Oil money.

I believe r170 was giving an "Imagine if" scenario, r171.

Janet's mansion was turned into a museum with the stipulation that Janet could live in the guesthouse out back. She wasn't wealthy toward the end. Jackie supported her, which was nice of Jackie since Janet was a total bitch to Jackie her entire life.

But Janet was her mother, so of course Jackie was going to support her financially.

It would've looked really bad otherwise. Jackie wasn't just a socialite by that time. She was also a former American first lady and the press would've been all over the fact that Jackie would allow her mother to live in disarray and poverty etc.

If you have a personal fortune like Jackie did by that time. Which she had received that huge Onassis $20 million settlement. It's best to just spend a little money and support your family. Which is what Jackie did.

What a life these people lived.

Seems like the only one in the family who ever really came into real sustaining money was jackie.

Everyone else just seemed comfortable in comparison. A lot of these people seemed to be bad with money. All of these various branches of the family losing their fortunes to bullshit like gambling etc.

They probably weren't supposed to have it in the first place.

Just to split hairs - Jackie Kennedy Onassis was a jetsetter and a former First Lady. She was world famous. Jackie was never a "socialite" but her sister Lee was. Jackie didn't go to many social climbing events. Each year Jackie went to the 1 or 2 huge fundraising balls of the very few institutions that were dear to her. She didn't go to couture shows. She didn't host a salon of VIP and socialite guests at any of her homes, after she was FLOTUS. She didn't lunch. She was beyond all that.

She couldn't afford to, r176, she was on Assistance!

Well-to-do families of that era basically sent their daughters to New York, instead of sending them to college. It really was the equivalent of a university education for rich girls, not so much intended to teach them anything, as to use the family funds and connections set them up for a prosperous future. When girls like Edie were sent to NY on family money, it was with the expectation that they'd spend the time finding a husband, and any girl who didn't would be cut off like Edie Sedgewick, or called home like Edie Beale.

And the Beales couldn't afford to keep Edie there forever, she spent the rest of her life complaining about being called home, but it's not like there was enough money to keep her there. If Edie wanted to stay, she needed to get husband or a job.

Can somebody tell my why OP's original post has been crossed out? I fail to see any reason for it.

Apparently, the Edies were the bad girls of the ‘60s.

Unchecked mental illness.

Big Edie was okay enough in the beginning to make a decent marriage. Little Edie never was.

I have watched the documentaries so many times and each time I discover more gems. Eddie seducing the camera man through out the filming is a fave story line. Also, Jerry!!! And the cuts and the fire! The movie is useless in comparison.

R176 Jackie absolutely was a socialite. She was also an international jet setter, but she was definitely a socialite too.

She was friends with people like Bunny Mellon and Jayne Wrightsman etc. Those women were definitely society people and threw society parties that Jackie attended. Especially Jayne Wrightsman.

Jackie came from that world along with Lee. But I do agree, Lee was probably more so a socialite.

You can Google photos of Jackie hanging out with these women. She absolutely was apart of the society social scene. Just more private then her sister.

Edie would turn tricks among the sand dunes during season. $5 extra for anal.

Jackie was a socialite-lite.

Big Edie took Little Edie out of school for two full years due to an untreated respiratory problem. Instead of teaching her, BE took her as a companion (or entertainment) to luncheons, parties, etc, that's when LE got the idea that she was a "great dancer" which of course she was not.

I believe BE sabotaged LE's life at every step. She saw LE as her pet, her caregiver, her hobby, and her entertainment.

R186 interesting perspective. You might be right.

If the Edies were around today, Grey Gardens would've been the stepping stone to a reality show and they would've merched their asses off. They would've made a fortune. The times are so different now.

R188 I don’t think so. These 2 bitches were profoundly lazy and unmotivated. Reality stars are hustlers.

r189 Little Edie loved attention and the spotlight. She would've thrived.

R189 Reality television personalities have business managers. They would've found all kinds of ways for them to generate wealth.

r191, the only ones getting rich off the Beales if this had happened today would be the Maysles.

r192 The Beales would have contracts with other people. The Maysles didn't own them.

[quote]The Maysles didn't own them.

They would have.

r194 you have no idea how any of this works, stop embarrassing yourself.

[quote]stop embarrassing yourself.

r195, sweetie, the Maysles would have executed an iron-clad contract before filming that would have all the modern bells and whistles. Al Maysles owed Edie a percentage of sales of VHS (since 1980), DVDs (since 1998) and any new theatrical releases and tv broadcast income. She saw none of it but an initial payment of $5000 (which she spent on eye surgery) and was advised to get an attorney.

Al Maysles was the devil and in modern times he would have owned her.

Now, please take a seat.

r196 that would not have prevented the Beales from engaging in other ventures. If they were approached to do a reality show, the Maysles wouldn't have any power over that.

Please see the WoW contract and recognize that the Beales would have been presented with something. The Edies did not have the sophistication to recognize the implications and were too lazy/poor to hire good representation. In fact, they'd already filmed about a month before they were even presented with a contract for the original documentary.

Little Edie to the Maysles: "Mothuh and I think it's very important that we be available to work in other projects as well."

Dumbass, if this were today they would be approached by Bravo or whoever for their own reality show. The Maysles would have no control over that. Who the hell makes a documentary and then has the power to prevent the subject of the documentary from doing other work?

"Dumbass, if this were today they would be approached by Bravo or whoever for their own reality show. The Maysles would have no control over that."

Unless the contract included clauses giving the Maylses control over future media appearances, or whatever it is they put in the contracts of exploitable people these days.

Which is all a totally pointless argument, the Edies lived and died before reality TV became a blight on the world.

R201 What are you talking about, An American Family was on before they became documentary famous.

[quote]Unless the contract included clauses giving the Maylses control over future media appearances,

Which does not happen. With anyone.

Little Edie’s niece has trademarked Grey Gardens and the word Staunch. She tries to sell upscale items with the Grey Gardens name on them for some reason. She regularly threatens sellers on Etsy and EBay if they sell Grey Gardens items. She’s a niece by marriage and a major cunt.

Yes, she's married to the son of one of Little Edie's brothers. Both of Edie's brothers sounded like they were real pieces of work.

Interesting that Jackie had nothing to do with her Bouvier relatives.

Little Edie’s niece, quit trying to make staunch happen!

R202 - an American Family, though made for television, was firmly within the genre conventions of Cinema Verite documentary. As was Grey Gardens. This does NOT mean that the films weren’t edited in such a way as to clearly convey story and whatever editorial slant the filmmakers wanted to convey, but they were light years away from the kind of manipulation that goes into any Reality TV show. Reality TV is heavily produced, staged and essentially scripted before, during and after it is shot. They are a very different animal than even current documentaries.

R207 PBS, who made and aired the series, on their websites quotes TV Guide referencing it “as the first reality television series” and placing among the 50 greatest shows of all time.

An American Family has often been called the first reality show.

R207 In Patricia Loud’s obituary from January 2021 in Deadline says An American Family “is considered the first American reality television series,” and call her the first reality TV mom.

And R207 Variety called the airing of the first episode of An American Family as the birth of reality television. There are three sources and I’m sure I can find more if need be, but it’s conclusive that An American Family is considered the first reality television show in the United States and I’m am firm in my history of the elision broadcast. When a new genre develops there is usually only a name applied in retrospect, but it was first and remains highly influential.

R186, I agree.

For a Grey Gardens thread to devolve into an homage to Pat F*cking Loud can only mean one thing: Walter "Crazier Than A Shithouse (and Mailed) Rat" is posting here from his nursing home.

So I just watched the 1975 documentary and I was wondering, how would you classify Little Edie's accent? I detect a little New York, but there's more to it. Was it a societal so-called" hot mashed potatoes in the mouth way of speaking?

Also, I have to say, I think her face and skin looked great for a woman in her later fifties. I can only assume it was because she was living a child like existance..no stress, no problems, no worries (as she saw nothing wrong with how they were living) and continued to live in the past. She even said she saw herself as little girl, which I can only surmise is why she looked younger.

[quote] And you're the one who has no clue about the upper-crust marriage market!

Oh, Mary, now you're really bringing out the big guns. Throw it down, honey.

"So I just watched the 1975 documentary and I was wondering, how would you classify Little Edie's accent?"

I'm from California, and her accent struck me as vaguely New England, the kind of regional accent that typically vanished during the 20th century. But of course, I'm from California and am no expert on New England accents.

And yes, R214, Edie did look great for her age, and also had a hell of a figure for a woman in her fifties! Hubba hubba!

Ward McAllister wannabe bitch fight. I'm here for it.

[quote] So I just watched the 1975 documentary and I was wondering, how would you classify Little Edie's accent?

Edie had a combination of a Lawn Guyland accent and the upper-crust Received Mid-Atlantic Pronunciation that women of her class used in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Her cousin Jackie Kennedy had the same accent when she spoken in her normal voice. Jackie used that weird fake breathy voice when she did public interviews as First Lady (like the Valentine's Day White House tour), but if you ever hear recordings of her doing private interviews with someone like Arthur Schlesinger, her actual Long Island accent is easy to spot.

Why did Jackie speak like that? She's always kinda reminded me of Marilyn Monroe with that breathy voice she selectively spoke with.

Yes, Mid Atlantic, it was part of wealthy woman’s finishing school education.

Cue the Mid-Atlantic accent queens. Disclosure: I'm the one who didn't like Bobby Short because of his.

If you bitches find Edie and Edie fascinating, you would like Dare Wright. Bizarre codependent relationship with her controlling mother, a hot brother she was in love with, beautiful clothing. But Dare was very talented and accomplished.

R222 Yes, an incredible read, with a sad twisted ending. Why no you actress hasn’t bought this up and done a movie yet I don’t know. The white Michelle Williams is still young enough that she could probably pull it off.

Love Dare Wright , that book, her controlling mother (another Edith!) and her VERY hot and clearly gay brother.

I'll have to check out that Dare Wright book. I'm a sucker for stories about eccentric, fucked up rich people.

Dare and Blaine.

In a weird twist, Dare’s father got custody of him in the divorce and her mother got Dare when she was very young and they didn’t meet again until they were in their twenties and then they had a quasi Flower in the Attic sibling relationship.

R103 here…

What did u all do today? I laid on my ass!

[quote]Little Edie’s niece has trademarked Grey Gardens and the word Staunch.

She can't take a word from the English language that has been used for years and trademark it. The little money grubbing whore trademarked the phrase Staunch Little Edie for a clothing line.

It surprised me that Lee Radziwill said Little Edie wasn't eccentric when she was younger, and that she ended up that way because of the years she spent "locked up" with her mother. I would have guessed Little Edie was the crazier one and Big Edie was senile.

I remember as a kid or maybe a teenager reading in the movie magazines how Hayley was with an older man and pregnant. That seemed very counterintuitive and scandalous to me.

Sorry, thought I was in the Hayley Mills thread

If you liked Grey Gardens, I highly recommend That Summer, filmed 3 years before Grey Gardens, when they had tried to evict the Edies and Lee Radziwill (with her kids) came to the "rescue".

Another one, this tim Jerry Torre (the cute landscaper they adored, the guy Little Edie called The Marble Faun), tells his side of the story having known them so well, as well as what happened to him after.

I don't know how Jerry could bring himself to go into that house. The stench would have killed me.

r235 And the fleas! The Maysles had to wear flea collars around their ankles.

This article from 1972 (before the GG documentary) is really delightful. Little Edie was just... precious.

Little Edie is one of my favorite personalities of all time. She always had the most uniquely expressed ideas and perspectives. If I knew someone like her, I’d be over at their house all the time as long as I could sit outside.

Jerry Torre has been inventing stories about his experience with the Beales since he was rediscovered driving a cab in NYC 15 years ago. He's put himself in the center of every event in their lives 1971-1977 when he was really only around at the beginning of filming in 1973. That book of his should be in the fiction section.

I listened to the cast recording if the musical on Spotify. It depressed me. It portrayed Little Edie as a primarily tragic figure, and that's not how I see her.