Where to Live - The Eternal DL Question

financially you are more in the KC, Columbus, Cleveland , Minneapolis range. but you may miss the Gayborhood thingy in those places. Chicago would beat Portland or Seattle which are basically filled with transported Angelenos..

Not true. No Angeleno worthy of the name would want to live in a place with the kind of weather Portland and Seattle has.

Check out Houston. Very active gay community and liberal city. $1200 will get you a nice place.

I wouldn't live in Chicago if you paid me. Winters are brutal, and crime is rampant. Pass.

Chicago is great, but reports I've heard from friends is housing isn't cheap anymore. A friend just moved to Portland. I hear good things about that place.

Every area has its pluses and minuses.

Chicago is, as R5 suggests, not terribly affordable any more. A one bedroom or studio here is between $2000-$3000 in any area you'd actually want to live. Crime is not as rampant as Miss R4 presents, but even in some of the nicer neighborhoods lately, there have been a lot of muggings. The ever widening gap between rich and poor is one of the causes for the crime AND for the rising rental costs.

Portland may have more affordable rent, and it's progressive enough to not need a gayborhood per se, but then there's 9 months of rain. And the base of companies to work for there is very, very limited. Lots of people with MAs and PhD's who are working as baristas.

I think perhaps Pittsburgh might be a city you'd want to look into. You may be able to get a studio or one bedroom there for $1200-$1500 - not in the trendy area but in some of the old "gayborhoods" like Shadyside, yes. It's got a gay scene, if one that's a little bit of a "garden party" circuit, with not a whole lot happening in the bar scene. And there's a huge amount of tech happening there, so lots of people moving in and stirring things up. It's cold in the winter but nothing as brutal as Chicago.

If you want a larger city, Denver may be worth a look, but everyone and their fucking mother is moving there, so affordability may not be there.

Sad to say, Chicago's old Boystown gayborhood has changed - half the bars have closed and a lot of crime has skyrocketed. They opened a community center there and a lot of nasty drug addicts and prostitutes have made life hell for people in that neighborhood.

This blog covers crime in and around Boystown (and Wrigleyville, which is the next neighborhood over) and I would NOT suggest living there. Andersonville, perhaps. But not Boystown.

R6 meet R7. I stand by my assessment.

[quote] Sad to say, Chicago's old Boystown gayborhood has changed - half the bars have closed and a lot of crime has skyrocketed. They opened a community center there and a lot of nasty drug addicts and prostitutes have made life hell for people in that neighborhood.

Democrats don't support gays, they support the el-jibbity shakedown network. There's a difference.

Having spent time in Seattle, I can say "rain" in the Pacific Northwest is not rain as I've understood it in the Midwest and the East Coast (where I have also lived). It's most often a light drizzle, as opposed to the downpours I'm used to. Granted, it's not sunshine, and it would be a shock to a Southern Californian, but I could understand how people live with it. I found it sort of pleasant.

Do I want to know what "el-jibbity" means? Probably not. Jesus why is DL a go-to destination for every racist paranoiac in Idaho? Aren't there sheep you could be fucking?

R11 its the the alphabet soup , which I call Giblets, but this other poster has chosen "el jibbity" for GLBTQQII?!

I think the weather is something that I definitely fear. I lived in London for a couple of years and that's about the level of cold that I can reasonably handle (average temps are 40-50 degrees with the sometimes freak winter where there is snow). Unfortunately there aren't a lot of weather substitutes for SoCal. Ultimately the Pacific Northwest is probably the place to be. For Seattle you can get a new build studio for $1300-$1500 in Capital Hill. I'd love to stay under that, but it's still way less than I pay now. Portland is amazing but I worry that there is no upward mobility as someone mentioned.

This was the quote from that article that appealed to me about Chicago:

"Chicago is in fact the city that's consequence-free if you choose to stay there. You can make one bad career move after another and still end up with a measurably high quality of life. The getting of things in Chicago -- it's easy.

There are other benefits to Chicago that other major cities don't have. Chicago is unbelievably clean -- pristine, in fact -- it makes most of Manhattan look third world by comparison. "

I thought I sent this for shopping comparison. this is affordable luxury

[quote]Aren't there sheep you could be fucking?

Unlike you, I can get a man so I don't need to.

R14 - That is beautiful. I just don't know if I can do Kansas. The one thing about being from California is that being gay has never been an issue. I had a bf in high school. I worry about being someplace that has bastions of liberal thinking but is otherwise conservative (I don't know much about Kansas but this is what I imagine).

If we only stick to where we are already welcome, then nothing is going to change.

[quote]The one thing about being from California is that being gay has never been an issue.

When was the last time any of you San Francisco queens ever set foot in the Central Coast? The situation is a bit different here, let me tell you.

Have you considered West Covina?

My partner and I are Angelenos. He is native born and I am a Boston transplant who moved here in 1991. From 2008-10 we lived in Portland and it's very much a mixed bag. While the natural setting is spectacular, the air is clean and the summers are glorious with Mediterranean temps and long days, the drawbacks are considerable. If you're used to the level of energy and cultural activity in Los Angeles, Portland will feel like a boring small town with lots of pretentious people who can't pull it off - in terms of literacy, fashion, design, etc.. A pot cloud hangs over the city, booze is everywhere and there's a sense of being in the middle of semi-depressing nowheresville - there's a reason why Portland's called "the place where young people go to retire." I couldn't understand the poor work ethnic and lack of ambition of many of the people there.

If you're looking for a vibrant economy, look elsewhere. Portland has many, many poor people, the standard of living is substantially lower than L.A. for professionals and the business environment is hostile - the locals seem to take pride in making it impossible for businesses to locate there in terms of taxes and environmental regulations. There's an overall sense that Portland has the "B" version of what you get in Los Angeles. As a Bostonian, it doesn't begin to compare to the amenities and cultural richness of that region, though at first glance some parts resemble it. Portland State University, OSU, Lewis and Clark and Reed College may be respectable but they're not Harvard, MIT, Boston University, etc..

We were called "fags" on the street twice (we're both fit, masculine bear types), which was off-putting and the liberal locals are rabid, radical leftists who can't tolerate any hint of a conservative opinion. A gay man literally spat on us once when we questioned the wisdom of massive illegal immigration coming to a poor state like Oregon. This same man was a college student in his 30's who supposedly wanted to teach art in Germany, yet had no clue about the major 20th century German artists I mentioned (Otto Dix, Christian Scad, George Grosz), nor had he even heard of New Objectivity. He was typical. Another person we knew was a lesbian in her mid-40's who was also a college student. She kept switching her major, as if she too had all the time in the world to get on with her life.

On the other hand, we met friends whom we still keep in touch with. People in Portland tend to love their homes and their gardens and the food is fresh and wonderful.

When we returned to L.A. we figuratively kissed the ground. Thank God we were able to sort of put Humpty Dumpty back together again after a few years of struggling. We now live in a very cute apartment in the Hollywood Dell neighborhood. And we still have the Irish Terrier we adopted there.

Moral of the story: when it comes to Portland, proceed with caution.

R20 - Thanks for the info. I really want to just jump in the car and head off somewhere. My fear is that once you leave it's going to get increasingly hard to come back, especially the way the greater LA area is developing. I am tired of struggling but that might be anywhere worth living. 30's is a weird time - young enough to make change, but too old to make careless errors without suffering the consequences potentially long term. Sometimes I wonder if it's just better to dance with the devil that you know, so to speak.

[R20] Very welcome. One of the big risks in leaving L.A. and coming back is in being unable to find a comparable housing situation when you return given the soaring rents and housing prices, which are becoming surreal as you know. Can you sublet your place (if you rent) or rent out your house (if you own)? Rents in Portland have risen considerably since we left. We paid $850 for a beautiful, large 1BR in a close-in neighborhood called Homestead which would probably go for $1,200-$1,400 now. Still cheap by L.A. standards but not so cheap with the lower incomes.

By all means spread your wings and explore other lands, but it's worth protecting yourself against various pitfalls if at all possible. It may sound contradictory to so say so, but while I don't regret having moved to Portland, in hindsight my partner and I wouldn't do it again.

if you really want a completely different vibe, New Orleans can be that exotic place. Problems abound there, but there really is no other place like it in the US.

Los Angeles native. I love here. The traffic, the cost of living etc are troubling issues, but I would only consider moving if were to a major international capital, SF or NYC but those options are VERY unlikely. that said, I along with almost all my circle of friends plan to move to Palm Springs/adjacent desert areas in our old age. yes, it is the eldergay capital of the known universe, but that's the whole point!

I was born/grew up in LA....college/grad school Berkeley/UCSD/UCLA. I moved to NYC, lived there 10 years. I left when it became so expensive, as I wanted to cut down on my work hours and not have to keep up with the insane pace of things. Also it was getting monotonous and the city is full of tryhards, who are exhausting to deal with.

I moved to the Hudson Valley - I have been here 4 years. I live in a popular, hip town full of ex-NYers, as well as . My rent is much cheaper but I am getting bored The weather is really starting to get to me. I am planning to move back to S. CA next year. My parents are in LA, and I would like to be close to them. My field is medicine/biotech so S. CA is full of work opportunities. Yes it is expensive - but so is every desirable area. I can't wait to get back to CA.

Mid-western oases: Omaha. Madison. Iowa City.

Worth a look.

OP - consider moving to a very different part of LA.

Sometimes just moving to a very different neighbourhood of a city you already live in can be a bigger change than you imagined.

For Angelenos, R26 - I just don't see any of us being happy in any of these places.

Are we limiting this to the US? Cause Mexico city is amazing

Sorry 29 - folks from LA aren't interested in reverse migration.

Any Miami DL'ers here? What are your thoughts on Miami/South Fl?

Given your criteria the Andersonville neighborhood on Chicago’s far north side would be for you. Outside of a couple areas on the city’s southwest side crime is no worse than any big city. The weather 9 months of the year is good, the summers glorious. Public transportation is abundant. You could live well on your money. And the cultural offerings rival New York and London. You can also fly nearly anywhere non-stop from O’Hare.

I live in the Pacific Northwest, OP, and feel confident attesting that everything you're trying to get away from--traffic, stratospheric cost of living, insufferable people--is readily available in Seattle, along with constant rain and much less attractive people. The Seattle you're thinking of ceased to exist 15 years ago. Portland has gone the same way in the last 10 years.

A lot of what's bothering you is part of big city living, so maybe your best bet would be to move to a smaller city in California, such as Long Beach or Sacramento, or the San Diego area. I was in Carlsbad recently and was pleasantly surprised how it had improved from the dumpy Camp Pendleton suburb I remembered.

R20, Portland sounds a lot like Atlanta with pretentious people who can't pull it off in terms of literacy, education, sophistication and culture.

OP- your idea of prices in Seattle are off. Rent for a 1 bedroom will range from 1300 on the lower end to 2000+ for a newer building. Seattle has become much more expensive in the past 10 years. It is nice here but the dreary weather can wear on you. I've been here 21 years and I'm a little sick of it. It's a great place to be gay though. There are so many gays.

cost be damned.

FRISCO FRISCO FRISCO only FRISCO can satisfy my appetite for sensual beauty amid and under the Pacific mist of Love.

once u have tasted the best, u simply cant settle for less...

plus one can me $100 per day with a dixie cup begging in front of the Walgreens at geary and taylor...

what more could a girl want?

ive dreamed of living in SF all my life after visiting there 3 yrs ago.

most fun georgous city by the bay i ever saw.

you are lucky that live there.

R37 SF is beautiful when visiting. Living there is a completely different story.

I lived in LA for many years. It was okay -great weather, dull people, horrible traffic. Decided to move back to the east coast -- looked around for a long time, and finally settled on Hudson NY. A beautiful small town, very rural but since it's only 2 hours north of NYC, easy to get to the city when needed and the town is an interesting mix of New Yorkers, some full time, some weekenders, and townies, most of whom so far seem kind of cool.

All in all, very happy to have moved here. Highly recommended. And extremely gay friendly - more gay pride flags on main street than just about anywhere else I've seen.

Re Portland/Seattle - I've always had the feeling that the ambitious people go to Seattle and the non-ambitious people go to Portland. That explains a lot of what R20 saw. Portland really is still a small town in a lot of ways. The housing crisis is improving slightly because so many apartments are being built, so rents should be stabilizing (in both cities, I believe).

If you're the outdoors type, though (hiking, camping, etc.), the Pacific Northwest is incomparable - amazing mountains, waterfalls, etc., within an hour of the city.

Nonetheless, I recommend Chicago. I'd be there myself if it weren't for the winters, and as they say, there's always global warming.

St Petersburg is great. Not Florida -- Russia. Sure the winters are harsh, but the White Nights in summer make up for it. And with your English speaking skills, you can always get work at 55 Savushkina Street.

Try Oklahoma--beautiful people, easy living, cheap rents.

If you feel culturally impoverished then get a hobby, create art, become a musician.

There are no more 'magic cities,' that era is gone.

You now have to make your own magic, which is actually much, much cooler and what we were meant to do in life.

Best wishes to you, OP.

People wax euphoric about SF all the time. I've visited a few times, but don't understand the obsessive love. It's fine. But I was by no means overwhelmed by the desire to live there. I confess to being extremely happy in New York City. I guess, if I ever long to live anywhere else, I fantasize about someplace cheap and quiet, where I can afford have space to spread out. So SF is pretty low on the list.

R39 we're in NYC and have been to Hudson a few times. Any truth that the crime is pretty high for a small town? Several low income projects there or something? Turned us off from buying a weekend place there.

If you moved from LA to Minneapolis you’d really hate life. Trust me.

Hudson, NY is a lovely town. When I think of where I'd live apart from the City, Hudson comes to the top of the list. I freely admit it is because so many of the residents are City transplants who have brought the urban mindset up river.

Philadelphia was what old datalounge like best.

Our place should be welcoming to outsiders; urban or old suburban; creating jobs; intellectual; inexpensive; with economic variety; adult-focused not child-focused; warm but only within reason; with a rich history; and attractive.

The more progressive and liberal a city Iived in, the less I got done.

Being accepted and welcomed is not all it's cracked up to be. I spent far too much time going to parties, talking on the phone, and hanging out. Every good thing comes to an end, however, and many of my gay guy friends unfortunately passed away, and my straight friends moved away and got married, or found a mate.

It's when I fit in the least I get things done artistically. Most art is born from pain anyway. And all artists/musicians need solitude.

Having lots of friends is overrated.

There are worse fates than regretting you wasted your youth enjoying the company of friends.

R50, yes, and I miss some of them dearly.

But, they are not around anymore, at all. We all just moved on, and many died. And then I was left with very little company that cared about me and a lot of time that I could have devoted to my craft.

I am now choosing my artistic time over any social time, and people love to tell me how weird I am for doing so.

I'm much less social than I was in my 20s or 30s, and surely could have had a better career had I stayed focused younger. But, I don't much regret it. It was important to me then to be a social butterfly, and I had a lot of fun, learned and grew as a person, and am a better, smarter, more diverse person I am today because of those experiences. Now, I'm much happier and more comfortable alone, at home with only the company of my dog.

I don't think artistic spirit can grow as well in a social vacuum, sequestered away from humanity. At least, the art that speaks to me is grounded in the human experience. There are certainly schools of art that are detached from humanity, and exist as only explorations of design, or concepts. But having just seen David Hockney at the Met, well, that is a portfolio of life experiences.

Portland by far bc they have little walking neighborhoods and they are progressive. Or maybe Denver. Chicago is republican and has subzero temperatures, so NOOOO.

I don't know about the cost of living in Portland. But, there has been some buzz about the town bc of Portlandia lately.

google Portland and portlandia.

[quote]Chicago is republican

I don't know where you got that ridiculous idea.

Chicago has a Democratic Party stronghold for generations. Alas, it's a great example of how single party rule corrupts, which is how crooked Rham rose to the top, like pond scum.

Chicago is known as the Corrupt City. I know a lot of Republicans who live (and love it) in Chicago. Often, get transferred there via their employer. These people hate NY, Paris, San Francisco, major cities (never understood why). I think it is very conservative. The dems there are corporate, wall street dems, pretty much a republican anyway.

And then there are the SUBZERO Temperatures. YIKES!

R31: Miami=no no no no no. Hellish traffic gridlock with zero hope of improvement, expensive, and no sustained gay life outside of South Beach. If you live on the mainland, a casual Wed. night visit to Twist will involve an hour drive and $10-20 for parking... and if you have a normal job & have to work, you'll never hook up at a bar on a weeknight anyway because nobody even SHOWS UP until midnight.

Fort Lauderdale: good, if you can deal with the heat & humidity. Wilton Manors is still highly-accessible to suburbanites, and it's possible to hook up at a bar, fuck afterwards, and be home in bed before 1am.

Tip: if you HAVE to work in Downtown Miami & make lots of money, get a condo near Ft. Lauderdale's new BrightLine station. You'll spend $15-25/day on the train ride, but the trip will only take ~30 minutes (vs 1-2 hours each way by car or Tri-Rail). Brightline service to Miami should be running by March or April of this year (currintly, only the WPB & FTL stations are open).

DO NOT even *FANTASIZE* about living in/near Wilton Manors & working anywhere in Dade County not directcy accessible via BrightLine+MetroMover... Your drive will be an hour on the best day ever, normally 1.5 hours, and upwards of 2h EACH WAY a few times per month. This is the only reason why anyone gay still ENDURES living in Dade County... commuting from Broward has become almost impossible to tolerate daily.

If it matters, politically, Miami is "magenta", Broward and Palm Beach are somewhere between "indigo" and "blue"

Of course Republicans love Chicago. They are Rham Emanuel's base.

Progressives HATE Rham Emanuel. He could never run as a dem in Portland. GET IT?

Nobody likes Rham.

LA is very hard to leavewhen you are used to the amenities, because you will not find them anywhere else in the US except NYC.

No place on the California coast is cheap, but if you’re looking for smaller and quieter, I would check out the central coast, esp San Luis Obispo. Very quaint, liberal college town. Small, but you have LA and San Fran within a day trip’s driving distance.

A 50ish friend of mine moved to Sarasota, FL (from San Francisco) two years ago, and he loves it. He claims they have culture, diversity, and a growing gay scene. I haven't visited yet, so I don't know how true this is. But it is warm and on the coast, if that matters to you.

Why I never really seriously consider leaving NYC. I know, it would be hard for me to adjust to living in a city that isn't open 24/7/365 days a year. 25 years of instant gratification has spoiled me.

Sarasota, FL is pleasant and nice weather but there is NO gay scene.

What's St. Augustine, FL like?

It's very Disney like, great city, R65, and at first blush seems like one of the gayest cities you can imagine (with the old shops and architecture)..... but it is, oddly, 100% straight.

St Augustine Fl, see for yourself.

Sarasota/Bradenton don't have (much) of a gay scene, but if you live near I-75 (both) or US-41 (Bradenton), St. Petersburg is a fairly easy 30-minute drive via the Skyway Bridge. Put another way, if you're gay, the Skyway is your lifeline to gay life. Make sure your future route to I-275 is quick & painless before buying or signing a lease.

The biggest problem you'll encounter with online hookups there: seemingly EVERYONE is visiting (and staying with) their family & can't host.

Hudson NY, like almost every city in the Hudson Valley, has a huge underbelly of poverty and crime. 25 % of Hudson residents live below the poverty line and and like every Hudson Valley city has been overwhelmed by the opiate epidemic.

I live outside of Kingston - it's even worse than Hudson (poverty rate of about 32 %). And like other posters, I left NYC for the Hudson Valley.

Higher rates of crime accompany these towns with high poverty rates.

There is no decently-paying job sector for the working class in the Hudson Valley. This leads to persistent poverty and growing heroin/opiate use. Former NYC folk, such as myself and other posters here, play a role in rising rents/costs of homes. In my picturesque town, a huge number of rentals have been converted to Airbnb lodging for city folk. This further exacerbates the affordable housing crisis.

I am a physician who works in addiction medicine and am part of a Hudson Valley county opiate addiction committee.

Or you could just live in St. Pete's, which you're saying has a more vital gay community than Sarasota. My mom had a place in Sarasota, circa 1990s to 2010-ish. It was a lovely area, but my efforts when I visited to find a gay scene were largely fruitless.

R69 bless you and the work you do

Seconded, [R69]. You sound like a mensch and the kind of person that is part of the solution, not the problem.

there are places that may be fun to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there. I think Florida is one of these places. You'll hate the politics, a lot of the small minded people and having all your property destroyed in a hurricane. Evacuation is a bitch. This is not fun at all.

And the summers in Florida are ungodly hot.

If you're willing to brave the weather in Chicago (mentioned in OP), then maybe take a look-see at Des Moines. It was recently rated #4 on Vocativ's Queer Index (America's Most Friendly Gay Cities). The city itself is around 215K population, but with surrounding population centers, the Combined Statistical Area comes in closer to 750K. Is that too small? In presidential elections, Polk County has gone blue since 1984.

This blurb at Gay Real Estate describes the gayborhood(s).

Popular "second tier cities" are

Virginia Beach

Richmond

Raleigh

Charlotte

Austin

Denver

Pittsburgh

Minneapolis

Nashvile

San Francisco is the ideal - but way too expensive. Live in nyc - can’t imagine doing without it after 25 years. Get used to the people the convenience the energy. Everywhere feels like I’m missing out on life. Philadelphia is a cheaper version of nyc- nice suburbs to live in and easy train commute to gayborhood.

I would consider Virginia Beach because of the numerous Navy men stationed nearby. I don't think the Tidewater area is bad at all for those with a decent paying job.

I've known a few artsy people who moved to Hudson, thinking it was the next Brooklyn, and they all either sold or were trying to sell their places. It's not the next Brooklyn. For one thing, it's 2 hours away from NYC. That means a day trip involves 4 hours of transport. If you're taking a train, you've got to fit your visit to the train schedule. If you have friends who live a four hour round trip from you, they will visit you once.

Cable tv channels seems to be trying to make upstate NY happen.

Not to offend anyone but some of these suggestions are frightening. Oklahoma?

There is a bit of tension in your request, OP, as large and established gay villages tend to exist in an inverse relationship with the affordability of a city. Tend to...I'm sure there are exceptions.

I think Tucson, Albuquerque/Santa Fe or El Paso would be good choices. They are all fairly affordable as American cities go, liberal, arty, scenic, have fairly good job markets. Not sure about the gay village quality though.

Yeah, I live in Brooklyn and mentioned my love of Hudson. But I'm not delusional enough to think it's day trip time away, or that my city friends will visit more than once a year. It would be an actual move, where I put down roots and make a new life, in a new town, far away from NYC.

This is a supplement to r78.

[quote] [R20], Portland sounds a lot like Atlanta with pretentious people who can't pull it off in terms of literacy, education, sophistication and culture.

Oh Mary, no one anywhere can be as literate, educated, sophisticated, and cultured as [italic]you[/italic] are. That's just The Impossible Dream.

[quote]Why I never really seriously consider leaving NYC. I know, it would be hard for me to adjust to living in a city that isn't open 24/7/365 days a year. 25 years of instant gratification has spoiled me.

I always thought that "open 24/7/365 days a year" thing was a myth.

WHAT exactly is "open 24/7/365 days a year"?

R44 -- There is some crime in Hudson but not too much -- I hear about it now and then but no one I know has had a break in or a burglary or a car stolen or keyed or anything else. There are projects by the river but they're not as bad as they used to be and frankly, and this is going to be very politically incorrect, it's all being gentrified by us white folk movin' on up from the city... used to be that north of Warren Street was no man's land, now there are houses going for over a million up there. And the other great thing about Hudson is that unlike some of the other river towns, it's now a year round town, there are so many people like me who've moved there full-time. Again, I feel really grateful to have found it.

R69 -- I almost bought in Kingston but too many people told me there were gang problems and break-ins... and it's one of those towns that everyone says is about to happen... but it never seems to. Unlike Hudson, which is loaded with restaurants and stores etc, Kingston has little to offer, just a kind of nice section uptown and then a little bit b the river. But I'd love to hear more about what you think about that area. I've only been living there for a year or so.

R20 -- You sound exactly why most people hate L.A.

OP/ I'm in a similar situation. I live in Nashville now and hate it. I grew up in Boston, and lived in Chicago for years, before going back to grad school. I'm an artist, so I can live anywhere I want to, but am not sure where to move. I want to live in a smaller city that is walkable. I want to be able to walk to coffee shops, ,restaurants, etc. I have thought about moving back to Chicago, but the weather is just too unbearable. I've been spoiled by living in the south for too long. Same with Boston; I couldn't take the snow. I've thought of NOLA, but the crime and general skeeviness might be too much for me. I've also thought of Charleston, SC, although I fear it might be too conservative. I would love to move to San Diego, but fuck it's expensive! If money were no object, that is where I would look.

Just live where you want to live, and make your life there what you want it to be.

A place doesn't come with an automatic lifestyle built in.

R85 With a quarter of the population of Hudson living in abject poverty, crime is a fact of life. Just because you have not become a victim, does not mean that Hudson has little crime. In fact, last year there were a number of shootings in Hudson.

Kingston has more going on culture-wise than Hudson, but more poor people and more crime. There are plenty of great restaurants in Kingston, Stone Ridge and HIgh Falls.

I know plenty of people who left Hudson for the Kingston-New Paltz area.

NYC being open 24/7/365 is obviously hyperbole. But things are open very late compared to the rest of the county, delis, shops, restaurants. The subway runs all night. Bars officially close at 4 am, but if you want to party well into the next day, you can easily do so. You get used to it, so when you travel, you feel the difference, when you walk into a restaurant at 10 pm and are told the kitchen is closed.

I lived in Chicago for years and I think it is the best value for your money if you are into big cities. But you really need big city attitude, just like living in any big city and I dont think crime is any worse, although reading the news always scared me, Ive never been mugged or broken into-- most of the crime are in the southwest, although if you read the blogs, the criminals have moved to the el and everywhere now. It also is a very heavily segregated city in terms of race and economic status. The well off are generally Republican as well as the born-and-bred in the suburbs trying to get the perks of living in the big city yet forcing their suburban mindset on the city people. You know the type, those who complain that the whole foods parking is very small where am I gonna park. I still think it is affordable for what you get. But the winters are just miserable, I had no idea how good other people have it until I moved out. You really really need to think hard about Chicago winters if you are coming from a warmer place.

R87 and R49 Do you make a living as an artist and where are you living now?

I love Tacoma, it has none of the attitude of Seattle, people are friendly, diverse. The entire north end is a nice mix of Victorian, Craftsman, and Tudor architecture. The Neighborhoods St Helen's, Old Town, Stadium, and Proctor are worth looking at. Rent for a 1 bedroom would be roughly 900-1200, a small Craftsman home would be 300-400K, many for more and a few for less than that. Tacoma is a bit sleepy, but there are some great neighborhood restaurants and a couple of gay bars. The south end of Tacoma is a bit run down, but that's changing rapidly....some good values there. Seattle is only 45 minutes away if traffic is light. ...great museums in Tacoma!

[quote] I want an easy lifestyle if that makes sense.

If this is your primary consideration, you might have set conflicting criteria for the type of city you want - or frankly, the fact you want to live in any larger city might negate this initial premise. You need to figure out what constitutes "easy" in your book because traffic, crowds, crime, pace of life - while these might be lower in one area relative to another, they are all part and parcel of living in a city.

And, unless you've lived in Chicago, I don't think someone from Los Angeles (I grew up in one of the little beach cities south of LA), can even imagine how difficult winter can be. Also, winter will only get harder as you get older. It's one thing to deal with the cold if you go skiing for a weekend or something, but months and months of cold weather is very difficult to get used to when you're used to LA weather.

[quote]The dems there are corporate, wall street dems, pretty much a republican anyway.

In Chicago? You mean like Jesse Jackson?

R92. Yes, I make a living from painting. I live in Nashville. Although a gallery here sells my paintings, Nashville is not a good market for me. Collectors here tend to have more conservative taste. I sell most of my art through online galleries, and there is a great gallery in Charleston that has sold a number of my paintings. I make enough to not have to have a day job, but not enough to move someplace expensive like San Diego, although, I suspect, I could probably sell more paintings there than I do here. I lived in Chicago for years. I never had a problem with crime, but I lived in the Gold Coast, and it is a segregated city; if you don't look for trouble, you most likely won't find it, as compared to NYC, where crime tends to be lower overall, but also in every area. I lived on the UWS and was mugged many times, and my car was broken into very often. I would love to find a walking, affordable city. If SD were less expensive, I would move there in a heartbeat. My website link is attached.

Nice art, R96, it's colorful and uplifting. Curious about your statement on your art selling in San Diego... why is it you would have to actually be there to sell the art? Is it because you have to personally go to art galleries to push it, or because people want to meet the artist?

R96 Thanks for the info. I think your art would do very well in San Diego. What made you move to Nashville? Are you R49 as well, because I can relate to that post, too.

May I suggest some places? How about Princeton NJ, Redbank NJ, or Watchung? Beautiful areas, smart people, close to two huge cities, lots of nice places to live.

R98. R96 here. No, I am not R49. I also can relate to his post, too, although my paintings are usually born from happiness and joy, not pain, although I understand that is inspiration for some.

I moved to Nashville because I thought it would be fun to write music for a while. I did it for a few years — and did ok — but I don’t like what country music has become, and have no interest in writing what the market requires now. I’m also very introverted — I suspect most artists are? — and the constant hustling and networking needed to get your songs recorded is against my nature, and it wore me out. I started painting a few years ago as a lark, and sold a few almost immediately. I was in a decent gallery within six months of first picking up a paint brush, which I know is not typical of artists, and, for that, I am grateful and fortunate.

As far as living in SD: I think my paintings would do well in happy, sunny places like California, Hawaii, etc. And: It’s not that collectors want to meet the artist, but they do like knowing who he is. If I were in SD, I would get into a better gallery than if I didn’t live there, and I could find opportunities to show my paintings — in coffee shops, at local art fairs, etc — that will help people recognize them. The more people are aware of what you do, the more you’re likely to sell.

And thank you to those who said kind words about my paintings. I appreciate it.

R96 FYI, a San Diego artist friend of mine.

sometimes i have to just pinch myself that i am privileged and lucky to be able to live in Frisco.

the weather, the beach, the victorians, the mist......

dream romantic city

Thanks for the link R101. I like his art.

R102 .... the map of the city illustrating the most human poo 💩 infested parts of the city ...

P.S. - you must be a recent transplant from Flyoveria. No natives (or longtime residents) call it “Frisco.”

Is it warm enough to swim in the ocean in San Francisco?

I love the poo map! $5000 a month and you have to walk around dodging human shit! lol

I don't know who the hell pays $1200/mo for a 1-br in Chicago. Maybe a dump. I paid that in 2002 at 3660 Lake shore drive before it went condo...which was the discounted price because the building had been sold and they could kick you out with 60 days notice. That building is "nice" but nothing amazing, and the neighborhood is average.

There are much nicer buildings right around the two January muggings posted by R7, but they are $2400/mo for a small 1-br... and still that's not the high end of Chicago's market at all, even though it's a very nice neighborhood right there. The buildings in that spot aren't as new as some other ones built in the last 10 years. (Over 3000 for a 1-br in some of those - if you can even get in off the waiting list).

The days of Chicago being the "affordable" option are ovah... unless you are talking about sharing an apt which is another story altogether. Or, fine - move to Rogers Park in a 50 year old place that hasn't been redone since the 80s - but that's completely different than living closer to downtown & will rarely have any modern conveniences or amenities of a highrise.

The ocean temperature around San Francisco ranges from about 53 F in the winter up to a high of about 60 F around Labor Day. In my opinion that's way too cold for swimming. Even in San Diego the highest the ocean gets is maybe 75 F and that's around Labor Day, and that's comfortable if the weather is hot.

Ih, $2400 a month for a “small one bedroom” is much pricier than most of LA. Are you telling me that rents in Chicago are higher thsn in LA?

Isn't San Diego incredibly conservative? Like OC level.

That's why it's so nice, R109.

Toledo Ohio has 3 decent gayborhoods, a smattering of gay bars, an up-and-coming vibrant downtown and very reasonable real estate market ($150K buys nice home in desirable neighborhood). Downside is the dreary weather, urban blight, shitty streets, bad water, and the obesity and heroin epidemics. Come join us - you probably won't regret it.

r108 where are you in LA? I pay $2500 a month for a 700sqft 1br in playa del rey. Anything west of the 405 is well over $2000 a month for a 1br.

I haven't been to Atlanta in decades but my husband has visited his relatives there recently and he liked it. Apparently there are lots of events around the city. My uncle moved there two years ago and he likes it -- mostly for the weather. He's old, so up north he's cold 10 months out of the year. During summer he stays in his home or gets in his air conditioned car in his garage and goes places.

[quote] Is it warm enough to swim in the ocean in San Francisco

My understanding was that none of the west coast swims in the ocean because the pacific is cold, even in Southern California.

Gayborhoods are pretty much over as anything but a marketing gimmick and excuse to jack up the rent. Chicago and the coastal metros have little left to interest anyone not from a small town in the interior unless one means gays who long for status. Lots of suggestions so far for less glamorous interior cities, and I agree, tho I'd look to older towns in the NE that have some interesting history, like Lancaster PA, the Springfield MA area, older towns in VA not far from 95 but outside metro DC, and one of many great small cities in the Hudson Valley.

You don't swim in the Bay Area--sharks are everywhere.

I've swum in LA area Pacific. It's cold.

R112, there are 1 bedrooms in WeHo for <2k/month. It may take some searching but you can find apartments in trendy places for less than what you’re paying.

R108, this apartment building is in a great neighborhood and new construction. 1 bedrooms are 2400-3000. The Aqua is another representative building in another nearby popular neighborhood, of similar building age, with the same prices. SoNo East is a random neighborhood in the middle of nothing really, still charging similar premium prices. I could go on and on ... Chicago is nuts for a highrise with amenities.

But like I was saying, if you want to way up in Rogers park in a 1950s walkup with an old kitchen / bath, that might be $1850 for a 3 bedroom (each bedroom will be 8 x 10) - and you'll hear all of your neighbors... and be nearly an hour away from the loop by bus / train (where all the offices are) unless you get an express. But yeah it's cheap up there.

Andersonville is most definitely not cheap anymore. Edgewater is all condos, but you can rent from a condo owner around $1800 for a 1-br with parking, depending on the bldg. Andersonville has no high rises...again, you're stuck with 2-3 bedroom places without garages - so you need a roommate unless you want to pay it all by yourself. And, many are still "vintage".

I spent waaaaayyyy too many summers trying to find another apartment in Chicago. I can list everything off the top of my head at this point. The REALLY nice buildings in Chicago are $4000 / mo or higher (2550 Lakeview - when they come up for rent - so nice & great neighborhood).

Ooooo there's a 1-br 1.5 bath available in 2550 lakeview for $3200... 4th floor though, south view (on a side street). I love this building so much. I used to run all the way too it and then linger around and then run back. This is not boystown. Nah ah... no boystown ghetto.

People give me shit for loving this building but whatever - the condos are like 2-10 mil in there. They say it belongs in Naples, Florida or is too gauche...etc... I love it... if I had $3200 / mo I would be there, though not really in a small south facing 4th floor unit actually...

Is new orleans really that bad?

Why hasn't Houston been mentioned yet?

Looks like a cool city

R20: LMAO about Naples. I had the misfortune of growing up there. When I was in college, one of my friends remarked that he'd never seen a group of people in his life who hated their hometown as much as we did.

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Q. Why do newly-retired people move to Bonita Springs?

A. To be closer to their parents in Naples.

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"That lady was SO OLD, she had one foot in the grave, and one foot on a skateboard..."

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Favorite Naples bumper sticker from high school: "When I get old, I'm going to move up north and drive slow"

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When I was in high school, we HATED when all the college students came home in May and took back the mall.

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If you're visiting Florida, Naples is a great place to spend a Tuesday night. Why Tuesday? Because nothing goes on ANYWHERE in Florida on Tuesday night, so it's the one night you won't notice the complete lack of anything to do.

Seriously, Las Vegas! BIG city feel, small town , GREAT cost of living NO state tax. EVERY major store, restaurant, concert, Close to king, Los Angeles, If you embrace it, Las Vegas is Paradise.

R122 I would steer clear of any city that has had major damage done in the past year due to severe weather conditions.

R122, Houston is a shithole.

R113, Atlanta is overrated. Endless suburbs, no culture, asshole people, not much of downtown area. I was there for a week and was bored by Wednesday.

I gotta say, a high rise in Vegas could be kinda cool..

R125: what's worse...

a) A city that has a major weather-related disaster every decade or so and is halfway prepared for it?

b) A city like San Francisco or Los Angeles that might experience a major disaster once per century... but will be utterly and completely fucked for MONTHS afterwards when it finally happens, and have the local quality of life ruined for years until things like collapsed freeway bridges get rebuilt? I for one wouldn't want to be anywhere NEAR Manhattan when it finally gets a direct hit from a once-in-500-years freak category 3 hurricane that sends 2 million refugees walking 10 miles to New Jersey hoping to catch buses, trains, planes, and taxis to *anywhere* because there's no food, water, electricity, working transportation systems, or meaningful medical care anywhere in the metro area.

I googled apartment buildings in Las Vegas. They are pretty cool, and very inexpensive compared to some of the other cities mentioned here. I've been to LV and thought it was wild and had fun, but I just can't imagine living there. It seems like it might be soul less and depressing, and, I don't know why, but I get the impression that a lot of residents would be deplorable with opioid addictions. Maybe I'm wrong. Some of the buildings I saw online were really great.

You may be surprised but Omaha Nebraska. It's known as the gay capital of the Midwest. Very active gay community, hot guys, and very mild winters.

Missoula Montana is where hippies retire.

[quote]Seriously, Las Vegas! BIG city feel, small town , GREAT cost of living NO state tax. EVERY major store, restaurant, concert, Close to king, Los Angeles, If you embrace it, Las Vegas is Paradise.

Well said, except you left out the part that Las Vegas is AN ABSOLUTE HELLHOLE.

Typical one bedroom in Chicago is under $1500. What are you talking about? Hell, you could get one in Cicero for half that.

Phoenix! Yes it’s insanely hot from around May to October, but the desert scenery and topography is absolutely beautiful. Plus the men are HOT as hell—LA cannot compete with Phoenix’s large concentration of sexy and down to earth guys.

R135 I agree the gyms are crawling with hot men. Tempe on a friday night is JO material

r135, Apache Junction is even better.

Red Rock, Summerlin, HighRise on the Las VegasStrip, Southern Highlands, all beautiful parts of Vegas. Far from a shit hole. pull you head out of your ass and check the town out. The Smith Center for the Performing Arts is located in Downtown Las Vegas, NEW Wynn Casino, restaurant and clubs from NY to LA, local FUN vibe, Carrot Top, Frank Marino, Pia Zadora, Carlos Santana, Cirque du Soleil, Celene, - Only thing ya gotta hot is the heat in the summer. But LA beaches, Mt Charleston, Utah are really close to take an out of town trip'

R120, I am from Naples, Florida, and that building is not gauche enough or pretentious enough. I grew up there (Florida "pioneer" family) and it wasn't always that way, not by a long shot.

But then THEY came and ruined it, as they always do.

What you hear about Portland is outdated. Gentrification has ruined it. Rent is ridiculous ly high, and its overrun w yuppie scum. The charm and liveanility for which it was known are long gone. Crime and homelessness are epidemic and the developets basically run city hall. Its a shame.

Avoid rust-belt cities, OP. We are still dealing with economic obsolescence and deeply entrenched segregation. There's more fear than hope which contributes to our official blame-the-poor-and-brown-people policies.

In fact, I would only recommend Chicago to someone ready to shed some bigotry. The city is filled with transplants who want you to know how happy they are being white, chunky, and male. If DJT loved cock, he'd love Chicago.

San Diego is a suburb masquerading as a city.

I'm shocked!! Shocked I tell you that no one has mentioned Austin yet! Don't these threads ALWAYS mention Austin at least once?

Thank you guys for all your feedback. There are so many options out there. I've been interviewing/negotiating for the last month on a position in SF, received an offer this week and I have decided to make the move. The salary is much better than in my OP and some of my closest childhood friends migrated up there from LA. Everything seems to be coming together, which makes me feel like it's the right move. I'm nervously excited, but it's time to make a change. I'm single, untethered, and aside from my rent control apartment I don't have much to lose. LA will be here for me if it doesn't work out. Wish me luck!

143 - Austin - my friend from college moved there and I have been several times. You, an Austin resident, don't need another person clogging up your freeways. The weather is a deal breaker for me. My friend who lives there is a boho chick who loves it (we gave her shit for leaving LA 10 years ago). Over the years she got pushed out of her very central house b/c of the skyrocketing rents. I will say that you have some gorgeous men. When I was there, I found the gay scene to be very friendly and guys really hot. In terms of the city itself, I knew when you got a W Residences that it was the beginning of the end in terms of affordable housing prices.

I moved to Chicago from NYC 27 years ago and never left. It really is a great city, only problem is housing is starting to get very expensive, I made a mistake by not buying something a long time ago..... but I never knew if I was going to keep working and stay.

[quote] local FUN vibe, Carrot Top, Frank Marino, Pia Zadora, Carlos Santana, Cirque du Soleil, Celene,

Poo Shoes has fun with Carrot Top. That is so typical

I lived in London for several years after NYC. I found the weather in London to be fine. The occasional cold snap but there flowers in the parks in March.

Plus, men in blazers and gloves in winter, which is very sexy.

In the 3 years I lived in Albuquerque I only saw 2 hot guys: one was an employee at a UPS store, the other one at a gym. For a city with a population of over 500K that's pretty dismal.

Im the artist who posted upstream. I lived in London when I was younger and it was easier to emigrate. I recently contacted a lawyer -- sorry, barrister -- and artists are not high on their list of people they want there. I would have to invest $200,000 in a business and provide a year's work for six people in order to move there. I would if I could. I know London is expensive, but it is worth it. It is my favorite place I've lived.

Have you considered multiple homes? As I said on my show four is the most you should have. After that it gets to be too much to manage.

R87, why do you hate Nashville? I'm curious because I had it on my list of maybes.

R151 -- R87 here. I hate Nashville with the heat of a thousand suns. I moved here to write music, because you really have to be here to do that. Now that I make a living as an artist, though, I can live anywhere. Why do I hate Nashville. I grew up in Boston and am, for better or worse, a typical Bostonian. I'm liberal, introverted, an atheist, and gay. Nashville is MUCH more christian than you can imagine -- it is not uncommon for the clerk at Walgreens to tell you to have a "blessed day" -- and conservative. It is also provisional and small-minded. I have lived here for 20 years, but have very few friends here. I don't connect with anyone here, and all of my friends are almost always also from the Northeast. People here are just...different. I know I shouldn't judge an entire city, but most of the people I've met are not intellectually curious, and they are on the shallow end. I suspect that a lot of it a southern thing, where people are friendly but not well-meaning. They tend to be shallow. It is also growing at a ridiculous rate. The traffic has become INSANE and there is construction everywhere. Apartments used to be very very affordable, but, now, it is as expensive as pretty much every other city. Small one bedrooms in an area that was a ghetto five years ago rent for 1600, and some of the new apartments in recently gentrified areas are going for about $3,000. There are a lot of restaurants, but the quality of the food is not great; rather, they are all beautiful, high-concept restaurants that are more concerned with the vibe than with the quality of the food. I compare that to, say, Charleston, which also has a thriving restaurant scene, but the focus is on quality, not creating a groovy place with a hipster vibe. I know people love it here, but that may be because they haven't lived in a true city -- I've lived in Boston, Chicago, London, and NYC -- and compared to the small town they grew up in, sure, Nashville is nice. Compared to a true city? It is lacking.

Thanks R152.

R152 again. PS. I acknowledge that I should take some blame for feeling like I don't connect to people in Nashville, because I admit I'm a little odd and raise the bar fairly hight. I'm an introvert, ad tend to avoid people and small talk, which, of course, could lead to deeper relationships. My problem, though, is that I have found that my "friendships" with people here just never progress past the initial politeness. I'm also a big reader, and, not to be arrogant, intelligence is important to me, and I have not been able to find many people who inspire me intellectually. If you are interested in moving here, email me through the link I posted above, and I will tell you which parts of town are worth moving to, etc.

R152, I know what you mean about intellectual curiosity. I'm reminded of the hierarchy of conversation (from lowest to highest level): talking about other people, talking about things, and talking about ideas. In larger cities, people tend to be more interested in talking about things and ideas, rather than just about other people (or gossip). I realize that this is a huge generalization, but I have found it to be generally true.

R155, have you ever lived in a large city?

R155 It is a generalization, but generalizations are born from truth. There are certainly shallow and stupid people in cities, but it is usually the intelligent and ambitious people who tend to move there, or, at least three is a large enough population that you can find what you seek. That is not the case in smaller cities, where people seem to be more homogenous. So that begs the question: where to move to?!?!

I live in LA now and plan to move soon. I hate living here. I’ve considered a few different places: Nashville, Seattle, SF, Austin, Houston, Dallas.

What about Philadelphia?

You'll be miserable in Houston and Dallas, R158.

It seems the theme of this thread should be "The grass is always greener..." Everyone someone nominates a perfect city, the people that live there tell you how much they want to leave it.

True, R161. But for very disgruntled resident, you do have 100,000 people who love it. I'm the guy who doesn't like Nashville, but I was clear that it was for very specific reasons. If those reasons are not an issue for someone, they could love it here. R158 -- all the places you listed are red state and conservative, with the exception of Seattle, so my issues with Nashville might not be yours. As far as Philadelphia: there was an article in the Wall Street Journal a week or so ago that said Philadelphia is fast becoming unaffordable. I don't know much about the city -- I've only been once -- but it didn't paint a very good picture of it.

Live in Phoenix, Palm Springs or Las Vegas if you enjoy melting!

I’m constantly in limbo about where to live. I’m a single woman with few ties besides parents. I’ve gone between LA and Minneapolis, twice. I’m thinking about moving back to California but now looking at Palm Springs. Housing is somewhat affordable and I find the desert environment relaxing. I’ve also thought about Vegas in the past.

How do you like Minneapolis r164? I’m 158. I listed those different places but I’ll probably go back to NY. It seems like the safest option.

Reno or Salt Lake City are very affordable and lovely places to live.

R58, why do you hate LA? Honestly, if you do, you might like Minneapolis. They are completely opposite. I’m from here and I struggle. I could get very long winded but basically: anyone will agree it’s a difficult place for transplants. Most people are born in MN or Wisconsin and haven’t left and aren’t looking to make new friends. Its dreadfully cold of course, which to me = isolating. It’s one of the best places to raise a family, it’s kid friendly, midwestern but quirky. It’s kind of bland but there’s a lot of events, music, craft beer, outdoors activities, culture, and housing is affordable. Soccer moms mixed in with lumberjack hipsters. When my friend from LA visited and we walked around the lakes, he said .. wow, people just let it all hang out don’t they? Large bodies in tiny tank tops. It’s not “sceney”. Minneapolis is also one of the top bicycling cities in the world. I would tell someone who’s single to proceed with caution but an LGBT family would love the twin cities.

R158 here again. I think Minneapolis would be too cold for me. LA just isn’t for me. It never felt right. I dislike the weather, sprawl and traffic to name a few.

Minneapolis is charming, but just not welcoming to outsiders. Plus, they are so loud.

R134 - what are YOU talking about? At least the above poster linked to two buildings and named several others that are certainly $2-3000/mo for a small one bedroom in Chicago. I live here too and the mythical 1200-1500 1br does not exist. Where are your links? If you see it on Craigslist, it’s a fake ad by an agency to get you in the door. And like the other poster said, it’s a totally different story if you want a walk-up, vintage unit, or a place way out on the north side without parking or any security (which is increasingly necessary). So if you want a dump, then fine spend $1200 IF you can find it. There’s plenty of competition for those dumps too.

Oh I did forget one thing. The el runs behind 25% of the apartments in good neighborhoods of the city so if you want to get a 1200/mo unit then it’s doable if you don’t mind a 100 year old rickety train running past your window every few hours.

The el was the worst thing to happen to Chicago real estate.

[quote] The el runs behind 25% of the apartments in good neighborhoods of the city

You are nuts. This is total and complete bullshit.

25% was an obvious exaggeration / joke first of all but anyone can look at a map of the red line and do the math. I’m most just talking about neighborhoods served by the red line because that’s the most popular area for people & transplants. The blue line is similar, and it cuts through bucktown and wicker park just as badly. I’ve seen well over 200 properties for sale and rent over 20 years....I’ve bought & sold quite a lot after I was renting too. 25% is a joke but it’s certainly a lot.

If you ask an agent to show you properties that are walking distance to an el stop, half will be on the tracks because that’s what’s still available (good ones go in ten minutes) and less expensive.

It was a ridiculously stupid idea to build an elevated train, but a proper subway would’ve caused too much disruption in 1890. So the city is stuck with this eyesore (and ear sore) for a century.

Shithole fixer-uppers in Seattle proper start at a million. There's nothing in my neighborhood for less than $980, and it's a tear-down.

If you had to choose between Tucson, Albuquerque or Houston... which one?

I'd choose Albuquerque, but only if I had to choose from those 3.

I enjoyed Abq when we went through it, but I've never lived there.

R158, Dallas and Houston are increasingly similar to L.A. in terms of sprawl and traffic. Houstonians tend to be friendlier than Dallasites. Climate is a drawback for both cities: punitive heat for Dallas and unrelenting humidity for Houston. I prefer the latter, but I am probably biased since I was born in Houston and grew up there... I like green and swampy.

R152, you’re right, it is a southern thing. Nashville is actually the most bearable city to live in in the south as well (that faux-nice, evangelical thing only gets worse).

R170 I live in a very nice, well maintained 1br (in an adorable vintage 20s building) for $1300. I live in Rahm’s neighborhood; it’s extremely safe. It sounds like a lot of posters are ignoring the safer, quieter neighborhoods in Chicago...Gold Coast, Boystown, Lincoln Park, Wrigley are obnoxious, overpriced, and tacky neighborhoods that have become riddled with crime in the last ten years (and to be honest, that’s where all the basic suburban transplants live). Chicago is doable, just do your research.

We need to change NC into a blue state from border to border, not just in a few cities.

If Amazon puts their new headquarters in the triangle -- which it should! -- NC will turn bright blue overnight.

But also turn into abject poverty...

you could get killed fastser in Chicago.

I can tell you that no city is perfect. I’ve spent my life moving around. I’ve lived in Seattle, LA, San Francisco, Denver, Atlanta, DC, London and Austin. They’re good and bad things in every city. I think the tough part now for me as I’m nearing 50 staying in the city long enough to establish good friendships. Majority of my great friends are only on facetime. If I had to do it over again I would move to Melbourne in my 20s and stayed there. Australia’s impossible to emigrate to once you’re in your 40s and unless you’re independently wealthy.

Like R158, I moved to Atlanta last summer for the Northeast and been finding it difficult making friends. It seems like if you're not from the south they don't want to know you. I was expecting more southern hospitality but I find many to be unfriendly. I thought there would be more transplants from from the north that I could connect with but so far I have yet to meet any. I'm thinking of moving back to NY when my lease is up.

R184 -- I'm the artist who's looking to move from Nashville. I had a chance to move to Melbourne years ago, but opted to move to Nashville instead. What was I thinking?!? I've looked in to emigrating there recently, but "artists" are not on the list of occupations they want to let in. I would live in Sydney or Melbourne now, if I had the chance.

Ive always fantasized about living somewhere in Scotland or Ireland. Or maybe the north of England or Wales. I wonder what it’s like there to live. I’ve been there many times for work and vacation and love it. The people seem friendly too and it never gets very hot or very cold (well except way up in the north of Scotland). And language isn’t a barrier like many other places.

[quote]I wonder what it’s like there to live.

Cold and rainy. (Doubly so in Scotland.)

The anti-Chicago queens in this thread are a riot. Especially the high-rise princesses who took OP's $65-100K salary and started talking about $2-4K apartments and slamming Rogers Park. At the luxury level, most major cities are the same. But, come back down to Earth and the story is very different.

LA and NYC (and SF) are in serious real estate bubbles. If you can make the same money in all three cities, Chicago will give you more. That's true for rentals, but absolutely true for sales. A person making even $40-50K can still afford to buy in Chicago in a decent building/neighborhood...and that is absolutely not the case for LA/NYC/SF and many other US cities. You can get a condo for $100-200K. You can still get a house for $300K.

Congrats, OP, on moving to SF. Hope you love it.

R189 - Thanks so much! I'm packing up now and I am kind of scared, but excited. In terms of the market, everything is cyclical. While the in demand cities are all unaffordable, if we see another market correction like in 08, they become more accessible. When and if that will come is the question. The key is to save and be ready to pounce when opportunity arises.

Nobody was trashing Rogers Park, r189... at leat not me. The issue with that neighborhood that I tried to point out is that it's very far from the loop (most offices - if you work there) and downtown Chicago in general. I guess it's closer to Jackhammer and Touche if you're into those bars rather than going anywhere downtown.

The other thing about it is the inventory. You don't get a lot of 1-bedrooms on the market, there compared to 2-3 bedroom places. Almost everything is vintage & sometimes developers do a half ass gut-rehab, but you can still hear all of your neighbors and so on. Finally, with crime being somewhat random and increasing, there is less security there than in a larger building. They have a lot of 4 +1 buildings (this is also the best way to get covered parking there), but virtually none of them have cameras.

One of my best friends lives in Andersonville with a roommate for $1700 / mo in a walk up with no parking. His kitchen & bathroom were redone with a half ass job in the 80s. He doesn't drive. He's 39. I am really past the roommate age, and the no-car situation doesn't work for me because of what I do. I don't like walking into a vintage kitchen and bathroom - and if that makes me a princess, so be it.

Chicago doesn't have a lot of "middle ground" property (on the North side - someone pointed out Hyde Park but I don't know anything about it there & it's an entirely different story than the North side). If you're renting, the idea that you'll find some $1200/ mo 1-br that isn't on the el, isn't vintage, doesn't let you hear your neighbors night and day, is more than 650 sf, has a responsive landlord who actually fixes things & cleans the unit between tenants, has an option to park, and is somewhat secure - is just plain false to me. I've spent way too much time looking at property on the North side to believe anyone has a $1200/mo 1-bed apartment that doesn't have a lot of issues...if it even exists.

Dallas is great

You'll appreciate it even more R185 - having been away.

Sometimes you need to leave a place to know how much it suits you.

How much is a Chicago deep dish pizza?

[Quote]And language isn’t a barrier like many other places.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

The use of the term "vintage" to describe Chicago housing, I am assuming refers to a huge number of Chicago buildings built starting in the 1920s and onward. Beside the blocks and blocks of Chicago brick bungalows throughout the city and some of the older close in suburbs, are 2 flat, 3 flat, 6 flats and larger apartment buildings. These are brick buildings, solidly built, with plaster walls, sometimes wood builtins, and designed so you are not sharing as many walls as newer designed buildings.

Where the poster come from who keeps talking about Chicago vintage buildings where you "hear your neighbors night and day" comes from is a mystery. I've lived in those buildings. I know people who live in 2 & 3 flats. These buildings a very solidly built. Comparing them to newer apartments that I've lived in as far as noise goes - there is absolutely no comparison with newer buildings which are far more noisy.

Lots of misinformation on this thread.

[quote]How much is a Chicago deep dish pizza?

OMG! I haven't had one of them since the '70s, when The Chicago Pizza Pie Factory opened in London. They were soooo good. But it didn't last.

How much is it now?

R168 Ive spent hours trying to find a way to move to Melbourne. The only way is school for 2 years then get a 2 yr extension. Praying that a company sponsors me. Yes I agree about Nashville.. its WAY overrated

Bump

Really? 199 posts aren't enough?

No, R201. There has been some good information on this thread.

r 191 I live in a 2 bedroom on Foster and Damen-ish, it's nearly 1200 sq. ft., and I love it. I don't have any of the issues you mention, there's a lovely park across the street, and Andersonville is a 5 minute drive, or maybe 15 minute walk away. I pay $1120. I can't be the only one living in Chicago paying affordable rent for an apartment that isn't a shithole, or in an iffy area.

Why don't we just build Datalounge City somewhere?

R203 - Foster and Damen??? I know right where that is!

Right by Winnemac Pack where I went as a kid! Ice skating in winter.

I hear they have done a splendid job on improving the park in recent years.

We lived a bit farther west, closer to Western Ave.

I have relatives in the area.

r203 that is a good deal, and it is very possible to get a 1 BR under 1200-1400 in that area. If you do work in the Loop, you can take a Metra train from Ravenswood or Rogers Park and be at work in 15-20 minutes.

The "full-service" queens who insist on paying for amenities in high rise condos will continue to get ripped off.

Ugh- Chicago. I would choose so many other cities. Only reason to be there is to be near family. Otherwise NYC is the real deal. Chicago is a knock off cheaper dying version with much less jobs and money to go around.

The key word, R207, is cheaper. It's not for everyone. But it does give you a city vibe that is second only to NYC. And people making less than $100K can still afford to buy in Chicago and be in a decent place in a decent part of town. I don't think we can say that about LA/NYC/SF. You can buy a Chicago brick bungalow or starter North Shore home for the same price as a gutted Compton crack house or shitty Panorama City condo. And if you have kids, the suburban public schools are good with much less bullshit.

I lived most of my adult life in LA and NYC. If you're aren't loaded or didn't buy years ago or have a rent stabilized apartment...you're kinda screwed. You can still find places to live in both cities, but where are they? What does that mean for your quality of life?

Come back to the Midwest and South, coastal queens. We need your votes (and style and fabulousness) here.

[r208] well argued counterpoint to me [r207]. Well stated and logical. I guess I got lucky getting a relatively decent place 20 years ago in nyc. Still not sure I could make as much money in Chicago - but depends on career (and how much stress you’re willing to deal with). I think I might choose Silverlake or even Echo Park LA though - seems kinda affordable but you’ve got LA weather. Though again- type of job you can get may affect.