Idaho, Wyoming, Montana

Nice scenery. Can't say much about the locals.

Idaho and Wyoming yes, there's still hope for Montana.

Montana may be the most beautiful state, and many millennials are moving there for jobs. Also Dem Governor and pretty liberal Dem Senator.

Wyoming is a true shithole

Beautiful country, all it needs is more liberals. I'd move there

I'm guessing there's lots of poverty there. People always look for scapegoats when resources are rationed and the right wing always capitalises on the fear.

The Ruling Class will always prefer Fascism over Socialism.

Liberals, particularly gays, would just spoil it, r4.

Yes idiot, R6. I am sure they would ruin it more than republicans who are hellbent on repealing the EPA, environmental regulations, and installing oil pipelines.

What’s Bozeman like? Isn’t it supposed to be the north’s version of a hipster town?

It's grossly overrated, R8.

Idaho is one of the most frightening places on earth, given all its survivalists and rightwingers. Wyoming is bad, but not as bad. And barely anyone lives there. Montana is the most beautiful and has liberal cities and even some liberal politicians. We need more liberals and gays to move there.

The death of Matthew Shepard tells me all I need to know about Wyoming.

I was in Bozeman, Billings, Boise and Jackson this summer, and everyone I met was friendly.

Idaho is stuffed with retired LAPD officers

Wyoming: the West Virginia of the Rocky Mountain states.

You’re an idiot, Montanans are very friendly

You can also include most of Nevada and Utah in this. Reno and Las Vegas trend blue but otherwise Nevada is deep red. However there are places of natural beauty which are uncrowded and unspoiled and southern Utah is particularly scenic. My sister lives in Cascade, Idaho and I went there for the eclipse and I didn't notice any weird people.

You are way off, R5

Poverty isn’t rampant in any of those states.

They are kinda scary, but unlike other shitholes, at least they keep to themselves...

Why did you leave out the Dakotas OP?

That big sky country scares me. Lots of land, scarcely any people. Lots of survivalists types are drawn there.

lots and lots of meth use too, especially among the native american communities there which are sadly being decimated by it.

I don't understand how a gay person can live in such a place. They are barely any people, how do you expect to find other gay men.

I was at Flathead Lake in Montana on vacation a few years ago and can attest to the beautiful scenery - I don't know about living there though.

The wind makes them mean

Idaho and Western Montana are beautiful. East Montana and Wyoming are a lot of nothing. I guess it's OK but when you've seen one empty space you've seen them all.

Boise is great and even Patty Duke picked Coeur D'alene to die in.

[quote]America's shithole?

Sorry, that title is taken.

One for the band names thread: The Shrieking Doilies.

When coasties talk about the real America, it's like GGTAC-hilarious.

I Googled GGTAC hoping to find a YouTube video. Didn't find one, but I did find this helpful, caring young American:

According to this map, there are no DLers who live in any of these states.

Only the mountainous parts of Idaho are beautiful. The rest is flat and boring, except Twin Falls is a nice town and the nearby Shoshone Falls and the Thousand Springs scenic byway are nice.

Wyoming might be considered boring and non-scenic, but it does have Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks.

Those are the only nice parts of Wyoming, R28, and they are on federal land.

And people wonder why that area has a long tradition of hating the feds

Is the DL map paying members only? Louisiana, no one?

More people live in Massachusetts than in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas combined.

The South is "fake" friendly - they may act friendly but then they talk about you behind your back.

Idaho is very slowly trending blue (Boise in particular), and Montana has always had Democrats (Missoula, Bozeman). If more coastal Democrats would give up the high cost of living on the coasts and move to these beautiful places, we might eventually see some change in this country.

[quote]If more coastal Democrats would give up the high cost of living on the coasts and move to these beautiful places, we might eventually see some change in this country.

I saw two obvious gay male couples in a supermarket in Livingston, Wyoming (pop. 7,044) -- so the migration has already begun!

[quote]Reno and Las Vegas trend blue but otherwise Nevada is deep red.

Nevada outside of Vegas & Reno consists of about 200,000 survivalists, brothel employees and trailer home denizens. There are places so removed from the world in Nevada there the are counties whose populations are measured in the hundreds, and some of those counties are larger than many of the smaller New England and Mid-Atlantic states. They're like New Hampshire with the population of a block of high rise apartment buildings in Manhattan. Esmeralda County is 3 times the size of Rhode Island and has about 900 residents.

Except for Colorado, and Vegas/Reno, the entire Mountain West is frighteningly and aggressively conservative and gun-crazy. Weird place. They are not Confederate Flag good 'ol boys. More like Timothy McVeigh. Weird people.

Most of Wyoming is truly a shithole (to borrow from the President) especially Cheyenne. The western parts in the Rockies are pretty, like around Jackson Hole. But the population are the worst kind of deplorables.

I live in Esmeralda County from April through October each year and I know it well and the people well. Overall it's Republican but not everyone is. I think Trump got 75% of the vote, which would suggest the county is 25% Democratic. Fewer than 1,000 people live in the entire county, though some undocumented farm workers in Fish Lake Valley on the west side of the county, at the alfalfa fields, wineries and cattle ranches aren't included in that total. There actually is a scattering of gay men here and there, including me, but for the most part it's pretty straight or closeted.

Oddly I have found many of the right-wingers to be pretty normal in appearance and behavior and so many have been incredibly kind to me. But there are the outspoken nutcases and I steer away from them. They are big believers in freedom and there is almost no regulation - no zoning, no building codes, almost no tax - but of course almost no services either. Everything is legal: gambling, alcohol, guns, prostitution, fireworks, explosives, smoking, even marijuana is legal now. Do whatever the hell you want. Nobody cares. If you get yourself in trouble - it's your problem. It's necessary to be highly self-reliant and to have a strong network of friends you can count on.

There is emergency medical service, though, but no medical facilities. There are, however, plenty of conflicts, gossip and drama. Most people that have year-round jobs are county or state employees. There are plenty of people trying to live "off the grid" in unique ways. It's possible with solar and wind power, and there is a lot of underground water. Others are just people who wanted to get away from the noise and turmoil of the big cities. Others are just retirees from the nearby military bases. Others are just hiding out, from their past or whatever.

There are plenty of people who would identify with the survivalists or gun nuts, but are actually living fairly normal lives if you look at them. The U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM) owns 98% of the land in Esmeralda County and there is a strong anti-BLM sentiment among most people but nothing is ever done about it. The Clive Bundy types who try to do something are actually pretty rare. Most people just go about their daily lives, and they treasure their quiet way of life.

Most of Wyoming votes deep red, with the exception of Teton County which is deep blue.

Teton County is in the northwest near Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks. The only city of any size is to Jackson Hole.

It should come as unsurprising that the only nice, beautiful part of Wyoming votes blue!

Eastern Montana has a lot of right wing assholes but beautiful western Montana has plenty of liberals.

I love this thread as a geography nerd. Bump.

Eastern Montana looks sparse and bleak compared to the western half.

R43, you're not the only geography nerd. One of my favorite things to do as a child was to open up my parent's huge Atlas and look at all of the small towns in different states and countries and imagine what life was like there.

Now with Google Maps, Google Earth and Google Images, you can see for yourself what all of these places look like.

Here's a photo of Kaycee, Wyoming - a town I just happened to scroll through on Google Maps.

What is meant by survivalists and why does America have so many of them please? We don't really here of a big phenomenon of that kind in the UK.

So where are these militia towns in Idaho and Montana? I am morbidly fascinated by these freaky militia people and their weirdo, cult-like existence. People seem to say Northern Idaho is filled with them? Would one be in danger driving in those backwoods?

I once drove from the Black Hills to Devils Tower. Beautiful drive, mostly friendly people due to the tourist industry there. Anyway, they were doing some construction along the main highway so we had to take a detour and ended up driving through a scary town in Wyoming called Alva. As we approached the town, there were several of those portable billboards with the neon letters on either side of the highway with slogans against gun control. Since the main highway wasn't an option, we had no choice but to keep driving. A group of creepy looking townsfolk were standing along the main road in town and they all turned their heads and stared as we passed through. Thankfully, we had enough gas to make it to the next town, Hulett, which was rednecky, but friendly. It was a cute pitstop, with a very camp "western" theme. Not really my thing, but good enough to get some fuel and a quick snack.

Patty Duke lived in Coeur D'alene and Ann Sothern lived in Ketchum, so it's OK

Interesting fact: Montana is one of only a small handful of states where Native Americans represent the largest minority group in the state.

Y'know what city I hate? Billings, Montana. Have you ever BEEN there?! Are you going?! Don't go! Better to die in the plane crash! Women in high heels and socks! They had a fashion show at Sears Roebuck - no models, they just opened the catalog and they would point!

[quote]What is meant by survivalists and why does America have so many of them please? We don't really here of a big phenomenon of that kind in the UK.

R46, go back and read R38. Nevada is incredibly large (twice the size of England alone) but largely uninhabited desert, with a very few small towns populated by people who rarely leave. It's easy to become paranoid about the larger world when you have very little contact with it, and to view all outsiders as hostile. So they're obsessive about self-reliance, and want to be sure they can survive whatever bizarre event they can imagine, with nuclear bunkers and so on.

Of course all that nuclear waste buried in Nevada doesn't help.

Boise would be a nice place to live if it was not attached to the rest of Idaho. Eastern Idaho is mega Mormon. I have family there and was reading the online obituary of some relative. I noticed an obit for a young man who had recently died, and then another, and then another. I scrolled through and was saddened to see many more. I'm sure meth was involved in many of those deaths. You could read between the lines that some were suicides. How many were miserable closeted gay men? Broke my heart, all that pain, desperation, and wasted potential.

MY OWN PRIVATE IDAHO, BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, BIG EDEN.

Are Kansas, Nevada, Ohio or Texas home to classics of gay cinema?

[quote] It's Gen X that are helicopter parents.

‘Xennials’ (born 1975-85) certainly are.

My Xenni cousins are smothering their Gen Z/‘iGen’ babies to death, when they aren’t pimping them out on IG for likes. These kids are digitally monitored 24/7, and physically guarded whether it’s at daycare or just in the backyard (on rare occasion they venture out there). They are dressed designer, tech-owning and in extra classes at 5 years old. It’s like an episode of Black Mirror.

My Boomer parents did shelter me too much from certain fun formative experiences like sex & drugs & atheism before College, but they didn’t give a fuck how I dressed or who I hung with or what my grades were. My mother is a neurotic damaged Frau so she did smother me somewhat as a child but my blue-collar father especially did not coddle me, telling me to suck it up & handle it myself when I got in trouble at work or when I had a terrible mental breakdown. I had to bust my chops at school and at work as a young teen and survived bullying, etc. with zero parental intervention (they didn’t know a thing about what I was going through).

I feel lucky though that I escaped the close surveillance these Gen Z kids are ensuring. I feel my Gen are stronger than the Gen coming up behind, in spite of the cracks & damage we’ve sustained so early in life.

There are definite subdivisions to acknowledge & look at more closely in the Generations, too. For example, my youngest sister was born in the first year of Gen Z (95) and my baby cousins in the last year (2012); they couldn’t be more different.

Wrong thread, sorry.

Anyone who says Xennial is a tard

Wasn't Coeur D'alene the headquarters for the Aryan Nations and other rightwing hate groups at some point? Now it's a tourist and retirement destination?

Did they drive away all of the extremists?

bump

Some of these states are so sparsely population. To put it into perspective, Pasadena and Long Beach, combined, have more residents than the entire state of Wyoming.

populated*^^

Typical rural northern Nevada. The former Steiner Ranch in Lander County.

My sister and her husband built their own house in the touristy town of Cascade, Idaho.

One of the prettiest locations to watch the solar eclipse last August was Smith's Ferry, Idaho, on the Payette River.

Eastern Oregon, northeast California, rural Nevada and parts of northern Arizona as well, OP.

Do tell more, R65.

Oregon has always had a white supremacist wing

The original J.C.Penney store is in Kemmerer, WY.

R66, before I retired, I had the responsibility to maintain radio equipment in remote areas of Arizona at odd times. I invited my sis along on one of these repair calls.

Short story, we came upon about 50 white robed caucasian men around a bonfire in November on a dead end road in a closed campground (behind a locked gate) in the Prescott National Forest. There were no markings on their robes, most of their hoods were down, and they were pissed. There was also no sign of a vehicle or transportation anywhere in the area. A small, unlit cross was on the ground.

My sister freaked out. I smiled, waved, and slowly drove the 4wd. through a group of them who were clearly blocking us. We decided not to contact the Forest Service or Sheriff Dept, realizing that some FS employee or LEO probably helped them get into the locked area (I had a key).

The area had documented KKK activity into the 1940's, but a local historian told me nothing major since. There are several militia groups currently active in the area, and the dominant, local GOP has been radical right for years.

How many years ago was that R69?

Not surprised, R69. Parts of Arizona are weird, fucked-up places.

Montana is NOT "solidly Republican," OP.

Fuck you.

How's it like living as a gay man in those states? So far, it seems that Montana would be the most gay-friendly, based on its being liberal.

[quote]How many years ago was that [R69]?

It was 1999.

Over the years, the area has had militia connections to the Cliven Bundy group, to the late actor Ty Hardin and his 'Arizona Patriots', and to the late Bill Cooper, who was a mini militia superstar through his radio and publishing efforts. Before he pushed it way, way too far, that is.

It should be noted that Arizona has reasonable areas too, but Yavapai County isn't one of them.

Well, if you don't like Idaho, Wyoming or Montana, perhaps you should consider New California.

Even "New California" would still vote blue. Does that mean two more Senate seats and electoral votes for Democrats, R75? Exciting! When does it happen?

Thanks for sharing, R74.

R76 does not know much about CA

Boise is drawing a lot of people from Silicon Valley who can no longer afford to live there.

[bold]2008 Montana[/bold]

John McCain 49.49% | Barack Obama 47.11%

Montana is actually winnable for a Democratic presidential candidate particularly in a year that party flips the presidency.

You know even less if you think that "New California" will be red just because those huge counties (in land mass) look red on a map, R78.

Are you that same idiot who saw Inyo County (population 18,000) as red on a map and started bleating, "OmG, majority of California is red!"

R81 is a deranged lunatic

Give Laramie a wide birth.

^^^ or berth.

Ironically, I believe that Laramie is actually one of the only, more liberal towns in Wyoming, given that it's a college town.

There's an article about Laramie in the new Food Network magazine.

^^^ I don’t have that. What’s it say?

Don't bury,me

In Laramie.

R33 The south is not "fake friendly."

It is polite. We have manners. They are not fake. That doesn't mean we are hypocrites, if we actually don't like you.

It merely means that we were raised to be polite to everyone.

Coeur D'Alene and Sandpoint are White People Central. Sandpoint is almost 55% retired LAPD cops; even Mark Fuhrman lives there.

My UMC southern parents have a summer cottage in eastern British Columbia in the Canadian Rockies, and they fly into Kalispell to get there. They love that part of Canada because it is "just like America in the 50s." On one of their visits they had to drive to SEA to fly back home, and they passed through the aforementioned part of Idaho. Mother said it was like heaven on earth, and nearly as "50s-ish as Invermere, BC., and so much easier to reach!" So they started renting out their Canadian home to Calgary summer vacationers, and then built a lovely mountain aerie in Coeur D'Alene.

I can certainly understand why so many people love the life there. I will be retiring in a few years, and even I am tempted.

Bless your heart, R89

"just like America in the 50s." = "brown people stay in their place."

My house in Esmeralda, County, Nevada. (I don't live there in the winter.)

What made you choose Esmeralda County over neighboring Nye County, where services are better, R93? Your setup looks very livable, BTW.

I'm an occasional listener of KGFN, the local community station (via the web). The locals seem sort of colorful.

Wow! That is gorgeous R93.

Thank you. That picture was taken yesterday by my neighbor and she sent it to me because I'm not there. She lives there year round. The elevation is 5,689 feet. That was the first snowfall of this winter. There are photos from 100 years ago showing houses completely covered with snow except for the chimneys. But because of climate change it doesn't snow as much as it used to. It still gets mighty cold there in the winter, sometimes down to 0F, although last night it was a balmy 24 F.

I chose Esmeralda County over Nye County for several reasons. The main one is I couldn't get a license for the type of business I have in Nye County. Also most of Esmeralda is higher in elevation than Nye, and thus cooler in the summer, and it's more scenic and varied than Nye. Also land and housing is cheaper. I got the house and a huge steel garage (which isn't seen in the photo) on a 100 x 170 foot lot for $80,000 two years ago. My neighbor who took the photo got her house for $30,000. Vacant lots with no utilities installed sometimes go for as little as $1,000 at auction. The cost of living is lower there too.

But you give up a lot when you live in a remote area like that. Most of the services of a big city are nonexistent. You have to become much more self reliant and plan your shopping trips carefully, or order stuff online. Jobs are scarce in that area and quite a few people are basically living in poverty there, while at the same time there are quite a few rich people who have houses there for vacations. I wish that more gay men and women would move to that county. There are fewer than 1,000 people in the entire county. It's really tough to make a living there unless you work for the county or state, or are self-employed in some way that doesn't require local support, such as working online or whatever.

And yes I know KGFN well and I know Carl Brownfield well, who runs that radio station. He also has a tiny "opera house" as a concert hall next to it. He's trying to get a music scene started there and my other friends opened and art gallery and are trying to get an artist scene going there too. So there is hope of bringing some culture. Right now it's famous as a ghost town, gold mining town, haunted hotel and haunted high school and the International Car Forest. So a lot of tourists do come through.

R92 "Brown people stay in their place."

There are no brown people.

It's been years since I've been through Goldfield on my travels through the west, R96, and I've had a soft spot for the place. Now that I'm retired, I'll put it on my trip list again.

I do think Esmeralda County is the embodiment of the anti-government attitudes of many of the folks who live there, though. With the only health care being administered 'in a ditch' by two elderly volunteers, I'd hope that the county supervisors would act proactively to improve the situation. There was a large amount of Federal grant money available during the Obama years for community health centers in rural counties, an opportunity they missed, apparently. Short of that, active recruitment of a private nurse practitioner would have enormous benefits. After all, there are many seniors living there, and being one, the complete lack of health care would terrify me.

There was a hospital in Tonopah, which is in Nye County, but only 26 miles north of Goldfield. But that hospital closed down 18 months ago. There is a private clinic operating in the building, but they are picky about what insurance they accept and few people go to them. A retired doctor who lives in Goldfield some of the time is considering opening a small clinic. He also has a whiskey warehouse and manufactures gin there.

There are a lot of seniors in Goldfield and the county does offer a bus service to take them to hospitals in Reno or Las Vegas at certain times, like the VA hospitals. There is EMT service in Goldfield, but that's it. One of the EMTs lives right across the street from me. My favorite EMT though lives there only in the warm months.Transport to a hospital in a critical situation means either a 2-hour drive to a hospital in Hawthorne, Nevada or Bishop, California, or a very expensive helicopter or jet flight to a Vegas or Reno hospital.

I've been lucky and have not needed any medical care while I've been up there. But that's always a possibility in the case of something unexpected happening. There are a lot of seniors, though, who do need medical care. I have had 2 friends leave Goldfield to move to a lower elevation where there is more oxygen and to be closer to medical facilities. It's not really a good place to live for someone who isn't in robust health. The lower oxygen content and the dry, cold air can be too harsh for some people.

Thanks for explaining that, R99. Next time I'm on Hwy. 95, I'll be sure to stop by KGFN, pet some burros (possibly my spirit animal), and see how deep the shafts go at this place.

By all means call Carl and ask him for a tour of KGFN and his Opera House. Also stop in the gift shop next door and say hi to Gina (pronounced as if it was "Jinna") and her son Chris, who also own the Hoist House Tavern across the street. They are super nice people. You might look around the famously haunted Goldfield Hotel, which is being restored, to see if the owner, Red Roberts, is there. He's 94 and very tall and strong. He may agree to give you a little tour. See the International Car Forest of the Last Church, off Crystal Avenue. Visit the picturesque cemetery on the north side of town. That "Gloryhole Gifts" sign is now gone, I think, but that building is still there. Glory hole was a mining term back in the gold mining days.

Also stop by the Santa Fe Saloon, which has been in business since 1905. Lots of cool old stuff inside it and outside. For the wild burros, your best bet is either Rabbit Spring, a cold spring (but drinkable) on the south side of town, or else Alkali Hot Spring, 4 miles north and 7 miles west on paved roads. That has an overflow pond which is cool water, and the wildlife comes in groups to drink from it. I have seen wild horses, wild burros, wild cattle and antelope all in the same afternoon. I took the photo below there. I could even introduce you to some friendly burros my friends keep as pets. Be sure to stay in the Goldfield or Tonopah area in the evening; the stargazing is pretty much unmatched in the U.S.

[quote] There are no brown people.

What are we? Chopped liver?

To be honest, I have never seen any indigenous people while in Coeur d'Alene or Sandpoint. You also don't see any First Nations people in the part of BC where our cottage is located. Once while on a drive heading south from Invermere, BC we went through a 50 mile stretch which was basically all FN people. I wonder if as in the US they tend to reside in clumps?

Yep. They're reservations.

T(here isn't an escalator in the entire State of Wyoming. There used to be on at the Penny's in Cheyenne, but the store closed.

R27 What does that DL map show exactly. There are only 240 pins in the map. Is that all the people who use DL? I was hoping it was a much larger audience.

I believe that map came from one member here who started a thread asking everyone to post their location, and they made the map based on the replies. I remember typing in my location.

R107 is correct. That map only represents those who chose to identify themselves to the OP of the mapping thread.

Wyoming has 2 liberal counties. The more notable county being the Jackson Hole area & the other one that has Laramie in it.

The other 21 counties are all solidly conservative.

Livingston, Montana is beautiful. I believe that is where they filmed "A River Runs Through It," and obviously fly-fishing is one of the major attractions to the area. Bozeman is fairly progressive. The Blackfeet Indian Reservation is depressing, but at least Glacier National Park has made it a point to hire native people for the park service.

The Blackfoot Indian reservation is up at Flathead Lake. (Northwest Montana.) Which is gorgeous. Bozeman has a lot of cowboys still. Missoula is beautiful, liberal, has a lot of students from all over the country. Decent health care. For slightly better weather, you want to be on west side of Rockies. Which Missoula is.

R111, I know nothing about eastern Montana. Is it as dreary as they say?

[quote]you first

My sentiments exactly. I'd love to live in some of these areas but I want a liberal population established before I'd seriously consider it.

[quote] The Blackfoot Indian reservation is up at Flathead Lake. (Northwest Montana.) Which is gorgeous.

I guess I should not have generalized the whole reservation? I really only drove through it, stopping in their one major town, Browning, which is what I found depressing. It had one subway and a liquor store.

[quote] Eastern Montana looks sparse and bleak compared to the western half

Rain shadow?

I didn't realize how far away Montana is from Wisconsin. I thought they were much closer. I'm ashamed of myself.

I could see myself living in one of the college towns in Montana. Not for the long haul, though.

Idaho is probably too alt-right for me to want to step foot into it.

And Wyoming is a moonscape.

R112 Eastern Montana is pretty dreary. Lots of prairie, flat land, Yellowstone River. No Rocky mountains. There are some spots that are kind of pretty but you have to know where they are. Billings is a big city for Montana. But it's conservative, lots of oil people, cattle people. Decent size airport. I lived there as a teen but didn't like it much.

I should clarify that I've been to all three, but I meant stepping foot into Idaho to live.

Pocatello, Idaho gave me weird vibes that I did not experience in either Montana or Wyoming.

R120, Pocatello is very Mormon, but it has tended to be one of Idaho's traditional Democratic areas. These days, it's flailing around for an identity and not having much success at it.

Then of course, there is the meth and opioids.

R118 Billings was one of my greatest travel disappointments.

Boise was another. But I do love most of the cities/towns named in the thread thus far.

What disappointed you about Boise, R122?

The person who mentioned the Billings airport ... the airport is on top of a mesa and the first time I flew into Billings I nearly soiled myself because it looked like we were flying right into the side of a cliff.

I live in Boise and it's very purple. In fact, the state congressional district I live in has two female democratic representatives and one female democratic senator. The rest of the state, however, is pretty red. I wouldn't live anywhere in this state that wasn't Boise. Oh, and Pocatello is a shithole. I really wish we could give that area to Utah.

R114, I don’t think it can qualify as a subway unless it has at least two stations to shuttle between.